Mod Project, request from resume of ideas.

[Cohen]

I've started a big balance mod: on the trail of Zen Concept line, I want too to do something.

I'll made a single mod however. There's an attachment in the next replies.

Now what I ask is to players (to everyone, but a quick read to the Mod Documentation is a good thing, so to avoid to post something totally undoable via Mod for now) to say there what they'd like to see.

I've read about Clams&C, new pretenders (sadly I lack of graphic skill so I can't make a Spider Queen, but a Knight for Ulm with damage multiplier against bigger guys is perhaps doable - Tujdi idea), and most of the arguments posted here, but they're spread there and there.

The Mod is going to cover:

Pretenders (most of the Zen choices are appreciated by me, but not everything, and something IMO is missing).

Scales (order 3 misfortune 2 mandatory in actual game? Why? Death too exploitable? ... I'd modify scales to make them more worthy to take positive, at least for Production, Luck and Growth).

Items (gem producing items, and drain life weapons are already in the list. I'm studying too about those items that are rarely or never used ...)

Troops and Commanders (some small balance in prices and stats)

Magic Adjustment (review some spell, changing their cost and such. Changing some summons and other stuff).

Cameo/Flavour Modifies (like giving some more efficient weapon to those Ice Devils and Arch Devils that comes out with a "magical staff" that has stats like a human-sized quarterstaff, or giving a Cyplop some boulder to throw in battle ...)

More minds thinks better than one. Even if I'll reserve to myself the right to choose what to pick and what to left here in written words only.
If someone who's graphical skills (good) and is willing to design graphically some new pretenders I'd appreciate (I'd like to give Marignon a sort of Pope or Grand Theogonist as Pretender, for example).

I thanks everyone who'll help from now, IW included (I've written already a big PM to Kristoffer plenty of questions on how to do X, and if I could do Y), and to Edi who provided me time ago for other purposes a full sheet of units stats and ID numbers.
If someone want to cooperate writing the MoD too, email me at cohen[at]libero[dot]it

[Boron]

Nice plan .

A few suggestions/ideas :

- Make maenads Need not Eat . Ryleh freespawns from castles at the coast if possible upkeepfree too .

- Clams etc. : 2 Versions : 1 without changes , 1 which removes them completely from the game ( for mp mainly , if you change them it is too hard to find a way to balance them properly cause either you just delay the hoarding a bit or they are useless as a horde item ) .

- Scales : Improving luck is tricky i guess cause you can only improve the chance for good events . A lot of free militia etc. are very annoying though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .
Improving Growth is tricky too because if you give it e.g. 0,5% growth / tick it is -0,5% growth / deathlevel .
This is horrible for those themes that require Deathscales like Desert tombs .

- Unused troops like militia : I think need not eat for them would be nice then the problem with supplying them is reduced . And it is thematic too : A knight ate normally food worth as much as the food for 20-30 militia/peasants .

- With lifedrain weapons don't weaken them too much ! They make "only" most national troops useless but otherwise they are not too strong .
Making blood thorn Att 0 to 1 and damage -2 to 0 but leaving costs as they are is fine i think then it is not as desireable as lifedrain weapon but still a cheap +1 blood empower item .
Hellsword : just increase costs to 20-30 slaves and blood 3 to forge .
Wraithsword : increase cost to 15-20 deathgems and death 3 to forge .

[Cohen]

Probably WraithSword will be D3S1, Hellsword B3F1, and Blood Thorn B3 with far less damage. Wraithsword is going to be Const-6 if i can set it.
Clams for now are in programs with W3. (mostly halving their hoarding, and requiring a more skilled mage to forge.)


Meanads not need to eat probably make them too easy to accumulate, and same from Ryleh freespans without gold unkeep.

Scales: Luck means too some magic items, gold, gems gems gems. Unluck means temple and lab destroyed, and pop loss.
For Desert Tomb C'tis ... I've seen ppl playing with Undead Hordes, and Banefire Archers ...

About giving Militia "Don't need to eat" is a good idea indeed ... as they're armed peasant and are used to eat with poor stuff, but perhaps this is excessive. Giving them various survival (mountain and forest) could be good. In waste they're not used to live, nor in swamps, meanwhile they could be enlisted sheperd or woodsmen.
Same as flagellants.

[Cohen]

Here an alpha preview of Pretenders ...

I mostly kept many of the Zen changes.

I improved more the human pretenders.
Made some small change (I'ven't time to list now).
Added a Gotik Grandmaster for Marignon, a Demon for Abysya and a Steel Lord for Ulm.
I too graphic from other mods, sadly I don't even know how to use anything better than paintbrush (and I use it very poorly).

If someone want to try and tell me something.
I'll keep working on this tomorrow.

[tka]

Your .zip file seems to have all files twice?
Apostata.tga with path Cohen\ and another Apostata.tga with path Programmi\dominions2\mods\Cohen\.

About balance: I think you improved human pretenders a little bit too much. Arch Druid with 4 nature! Maybe something little more special instead of huge amounts of nature magic. Thats just my opinion...

And just to mention: Almost all graphics are from my Devil's Lair mod.

[odd_enuf]

not sure if these are possible, but change the soul contract so it works like an ivy crown, the user gets an extra 2 or 3 devils with each casting of summon devil. Change vampire lords the same way, instead of being able to summon allies they get an extra 2 vampires with each casting of the summon vampire spell.

odd_enuf

[Cohen]

Sadly for what I know, I can't make human pretenders in any other way.
I see them as powerful caster, but I can't give them a "gem cost discount" or a certain school of magic, nor I can give them a different cost for increase their paths.
So I'm trying to making them more skilled in magic, because you lose the chance to take 1 province with army and 1 with pretender in early expansion. Even they're so frail that takes the most damage by dying.

For graphics I know, I'll put in the final Version a txt with credits. If someone is willing to help me with graphics I'll be very happy.

About Vampires and Soul Contracts, I can't do this because it's something hard-coded for now, and out of the modding possibilities.
I can remove Vampire Lord chance to Summon Allies, but no more.

[Cheezeninja]

Are you going to be implementing the reduction to Abysian commander costs that you have long been lobbying for?

[Cohen]

Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold
Ant Salamander to 150 gold
Ant Dragon to 280 gold

Yes that's it. All the other Aby Pricing is the same.

[Graeme Dice]

Cohen said:
Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold



Far too cheap, considering that just about every other 2/1 mage in the game is 140 gold, even those that are capital only.


Ant Salamander to 150 gold



This might be okay, but also means that you aren't paying anything for the fire resistance.


Ant Dragon to 280 gold



This is beyond ridiculous. The base price, assuming no cost for the basic stats of the unit should be 300 gold.

[deccan]

Cohen said:
Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold
Ant Salamander to 150 gold
Ant Dragon to 280 gold




I wish I had those prices in my Abysia game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

Cohen said:
Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold



Far too cheap, considering that just about every other 2/1 mage in the game is 140 gold, even those that are capital only.



Well the Warlock Apprentice is capitol only too and it serves almost only the purpose of bloodhunting .

A seraph is a 2/1 mage and costs 100 gold . A pythium theurg is a 2/1/1 mage + holy 3 and 150 SACRED gold .
A Deep seer is a 3/2 mage and only 180 gold ...

Graeme Dice said:

Cohen said:
Ant Salamander to 150 gold



This might be okay, but also means that you aren't paying anything for the fire resistance.


Again the theurg : He has the same price as Cohens new price for the Ant Salamander and is holy 3 + Sacred too .
The theurg isn't fire resistent but he has not 2 but 4 magic skills and way better overall flexibility , e.g. false horror spam , quickened lightning hurler , in a communioun he could use thunderstrike , orb ligthning , soul slay etc. as well .
So the theurg can adapt to the enemy and use astralmagic if the enemy is lightning resistent .
The anathmet salamander is doomed when he faces e.g. devils .

Graeme Dice said:

Cohen said:
Ant Dragon to 280 gold



This is beyond ridiculous. The base price, assuming no cost for the basic stats of the unit should be 300 gold.


If you compare the Ant dragon to the Demonbred this is not ridicoulous . The demonbred has fire 2 as well but can fly .
The ant dragon has 3 fire + 4 holy in total so 7 paths while the demonbred has 2 fire 2 blood and 3 holy = 7 paths also . And the demonbred can fly as a bonus .
Only disadvantage : Capitol only .

Again : the Ant dragon is DOOMED when he faces fire immune opponents like devils , SCs ... .

Sacred Comparisons :
Harab Elder : AAAEDDHH and only 270 gold .
Crone : AANNN* , 230 gold .
etc. like Last of tuatha , vanheim .

The most striking comparision is though marignons Grand master :
F3S2*HHH for only 270 gold .
So are 3 more magic levels but 1 Holy less and being capitol only worth 10 costs difference in Cohens Mod and 90 in normal dominions ?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Cohen said:
Warlock Apprentice to 130 gold



130 gold for a 2/1 mage with 100% fire resistance and 50%-70% more hitpoints than the average mage. At 150 gold, I find them cheap.



Ant Salamander to 150 gold



Fire 2, Holy 3, 100% fire resistance, high MR, tougher than most priests... And you want to reduce them to 150 gold?

As for the 280 gold Fire 3 Holy 4 Dragon... Ye gawds. A Coral Queen is 230 gold, a Lizard King 280 gold, and they are H4 only. A High Inquisitor with less hitpoints, MR, and lacking fire resistance but with Fire 1 Holy 4 comes in at 210 gold, but then, Marignon is a theocracy.

Just which perceived shortcoming of the strong Abysian nation is it that you seek to remedy? They are already one of the best blood nations around if you want to go that way, with superior fireproof normal troops, excellent (though expensive) blessable troops, and access to both strong magic and priestly power. And you want to make them cheaper?

Rereading what I just wrote I realise that it may sound insulting, but honestly, I am just totally perplexed as Abysia as it is now seems to be an overachiever in all categories except magical diversity.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:

A seraph is a 2/1 mage and costs 100 gold . A pythium theurg is a 2/1/1 mage + holy 3 and 150 SACRED gold .
A Deep seer is a 3/2 mage and only 180 gold ...



Caelum is a magocracy, hence cheap mages. (Though low-def and fragile). Its troops are expensive and/or crappy.

Atlantis is the powerful aquatic nation. The deep seer is its most fragile troop and of limited utility in battle against its most likely threat, R'lyeh. Usually employed in the clam of pearls factory for life.

Pythium is led by the priest-mages, who are the most powerful in the world. They are also a bit fragile. They have decent though not spectacular troops.


And a warlock apprentice is a bloodhunter who will kick in your door in the middle of the night and confiscate your virgin daughter. Abysia is not set up to be the strongest priest nation or the strongest mage nation, nor is it the strongest troop nation... What is Abysia then?

Abysia is the nation that gains 120 extra design points because of heat 3, the ability to not have reduced supplies in death environments, where everybody including leaders have fire resistance and a heat aura, as well as about 50% more hitpoints than corresponding troops/leaders, with strong blessable troops (if you can afford them), excellent assassins, a flying sacred magic leader, good bloodhunters, decent magic, strong priests, and where everybody has decent to high morale, and a uniform high MR. What a lot of positives! Should we add to these positives "cheap mages and cheap priests" as well?

I don't think so.

How about comparing themes in entirity rather than merely a unit from theme A vs unit from theme B basis. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



If you compare the Ant dragon to the Demonbred this is not ridicoulous . The demonbred has fire 2 as well but can fly .
The ant dragon has 3 fire + 4 holy in total so 7 paths while the demonbred has 2 fire 2 blood and 3 holy = 7 paths also . And the demonbred can fly as a bonus .
Only disadvantage : Capitol only .



3 fire means easier access to higher level rituals than 2 fire does (and less fatigue for combat spells if that is what you want to use him for)
4 holy is much, much, better than 3 Holy when fighting together with normal armies (if you want to use the holy at all)

You cannot compare only by the sum of paths - you need to check what they can be used for.

The Demonbred is more versatile and mobile than the Anathenant Salamander, but the Salamander is much more powerful in his specialties.

[Boron]

Yeah Peter Ebbesen but what about my argument that the anameth salamander and dragon are more or less useless against most enemies they encounter ?

Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .
And any opponent that attacks you as Abysia will give his SCs and perhaps even his better mages 100% fire resistence items so they are useless here as well .

The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .

[PDF]

I won't enter into price of mages debate, I don't think i's the real issue...
Indeed, what will change in an Aby game if mages would cost 30% less ? Not much, as the Blood mages are capitol-only, you get 1/turn anyway - only difference is that you'll have on average maybe 1.5 Fire gem/turn more - you won't have to sell them due to cheaper prices...
Balance-wise it's very insignificant... Granted that's not true for Salamanders, and overall Aby would be richer, so have some more Salamanders as well as troops. But it still doesn't seem to me that a big deal.
OTOH making the basic Warlock Appr NOT capitol-only is a real deal, because it will allow much more effective BH by Aby - even if the mages are expensive ...

What about WA at 200 Gold but buildable everywhere ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:
Yeah Peter Ebbesen but what about my argument that the anameth salamander and dragon are more or less useless against most enemies they encounter ?



I would say that that claim was widely exaggerated. Most enemies you are likely to encounter in a game are neither devils nor fire-immune SCs. And, of course, the Holy 4 on the Dragon stays useful for helping your own side for the duration of the game, even if you do end up - in the very late game - fighting only fire-immune critters. You can even have phoenix pyre'd L3, L4, or L5 priests running around if you want to, which does wonders for their survival ratio.

It is of course true that mid-to-late game all SCs you encounter are going to be equipped with fire-protection because they know fire is one of your strenghts that they have to counter. That is quite fine as it takes up slots that would have been used for other items and possibly gives your own non-fire-using SCs a small advantage on the opposition. The same goes for air. If your enemy is airbased, you need air resistance. It is hardly a fire specialty.



Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .



The moral here being? That you should use your devil hordes vs. their devil hordes, that you should try to ally them, or that you should use your superior normal forces to crush Michtlan early (if possible?) I don't think that the moral is "fire magic is totally useless"




The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .


Yes, the Pythium theurg is way more flexible. He is a member of the strongest mage-priesthood in the world. Pythium lives - and dies - by its mages. Compared to Abysia, its ordinary troops suck big time. What is your point? That the Abysians should get cheap mages because Pythium does? The whole point of Pythium is cheap and versatile theurgs plus expensive arch-theurgs boosted by communion. The point of Abysia is the combination of strong troops, priests, decent magic, and good blood.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Peter Ebbesen said:
Abysia is the nation that gains [...] What a lot of positives!



And you forgot at least one: an unmatched ability (although Marignon comes close) to jumpstart the nation by efficiently alchemizing these early gems to gold.


How about comparing themes in entirity rather than merely a unit from theme A vs unit from theme B basis. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Well, if the OP changes all units in Dominions to cost 30% less, I think he might end up with a well-balanced mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Boron said:
Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .



That might be true in 1-on-1 Abysia vs Mictlan games, but I don't believe they're so common. For the remaining ~99%, the synergy in Devils + Fire magic is just plain obvious.

[Boron]

Peter Ebbesen said:

Boron said:
The pythium theurg is way more flexible here cause he can cast either quickened false horrors or ligthnings against normal troops and with a +1 astral item or with a communion he can use enslave mind and soul slay against SCs or thunder strike etc. during a communion .


Yes, the Pythium theurg is way more flexible. He is a member of the strongest mage-priesthood in the world. Pythium lives - and dies - by its mages. Compared to Abysia, its ordinary troops suck big time. What is your point? That the Abysians should get cheap mages because Pythium does? The whole point of Pythium is cheap and versatile theurgs plus expensive arch-theurgs boosted by communion. The point of Abysia is the combination of strong troops, priests, decent magic, and good blood.


My whole point is that i think Cohen's price reduction makes sense .
You have to admit that a theurg is still way more useful than a anathmet salamander which costs now the same in Cohen's mod .
As PDF said these small changes aren't insane they just help Abysia a bit . If Abysia really needs this is another question but at least it doesn't hurt the game balance neither .

And probably Cohen will improve slightly a few other mages as well and then the comparision is meaningless anyway .

[Boron]

Nagot Gick Fel said:

Boron said:
Mictlan especially can as easy or easier get devil hordes than Abysia . Then your fire magic is totally useless .



That might be true in 1-on-1 Abysia vs Mictlan games, but I don't believe they're so common. For the remaining ~99%, the synergy in Devils + Fire magic is just plain obvious.


Yeah but Abysia has a hard time anyway against Airnations cause they can use staff of storms , then less precision for firespells + the devils don't fly anymore as well as your other SCs .
Overall fire is slightly less useful than air imo .
And 2 of the good airnations , pythium + caelum have Water for quickness .
Iron dragons and mechanical Men are Fireimmune too + lightning immune so you can use them together with wrathful skies to add to the pain of poor Abysia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Boron said:
Yeah but Abysia has a hard time anyway against Airnations cause they can use staff of storms , then less precision for firespells + the devils don't fly anymore as well as your other SCs .



That's a different issue. Anyway nobody forces you to use Salamanders, Dragons and Devils vs these nations. I've never found it to be hard with Abysia to summon Demon Knights or Storm Devils to deal with this eventuality, and to use either Warlocks or Demonbreds to lead them. Or even Fiends led by flying Spectres, very useful to wreak havoc behind the enemy lines.


Overall fire is slightly less useful than air imo.



On that I agree.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Boron said:
My whole point is that i think Cohen's price reduction makes sense .



That is not a point - that is an opinion. A point would be something you could use as an argument to sway the opposition; that you think something makes sense wholeheartedly is not an argument for others to do so and hence no point.



You have to admit that a theurg is still way more useful than a anathmet salamander which costs now the same in Cohen's mod .



I do not have to admit it (as that implies that I have suggested otherwise, which I have not) - but I will certainly agree with that... [Except when the opposition is evil enough to cast that nasty high-level fire spell that gives everybody without fire resistance fatigue or when the opposition hits a group of exposed mages with fires from afar].

So what? That has very little to do with setting the right price.

As an example, Caelum has strong mages that cost way less than everybody elses. Does that mean that everybody else should get cheaper mages? (which would still leave Caelum with better mages compared to the price vs. most nations). No, it does not. Caelum is a magocracy and the mages are its main strength. (Its secondary being flight)

Likewise, the Abysians. They are not wannabe-Theurgs - they are Abysians, part of the proud Abysian people and army. As a nation they have their own strength and weaknesses, and one of their main weaknesses is that they are not inexpensive to hoard in large numbers, especially in the early game. Would you be willing to give up one of their strengths in return for being cheaper?

Come to think of it, this has already been done in the Blood of the Humans theme.

[Cohen]

I disagree with the vision "magocracy" so cheaper mages.
Same for Pythium ... a "magic-theocracy" doesn't means Pythium should have the best prices mage-priests.
Magocracy = Mages everywhere.
This is fine.
Caelumnian mages have been raised in cost (both).
Pythium Theur have been raised.

Ulm is a Military Nation ... sadly troops after turn XX (depending on settings) become useless for damage purposal.
Meanwhile Caelum mages are damn good always.

For pricing I consider their overrall effectiveness. Priestly power doesn't give Research Points. And has a limited range of spells, and no forging at all. Priestly Level will become soon useless, with troops.
Abysyan Anthemats aren't so good. It seems that everyone forgets about their Precision ... making them not so good combat mages, even if your troops are immune probably you'll miss enemy troops.
A Caelumnian Seraph is now 140 gold. Why? It's non capitol only. A2W1 is a good magic combo, quickness + lightning/frozen heart or false horror spam. + Cloud Trapeze. Neatly superior to ie a Warlock Apprentice. Fire Resistance is compared to Cold Resistance. Better hp compared to superior precision, and the Caelumnian guy flies.

I've changed too the Marignon Gran Master (to 250 gold).
The Serpent King (the guy with 4 priestly level) bringing him down of price to 180 too.
Now I don't recall exactly, but I'll make a readme before I release something more there.
However this post (and my mod too) lacks of a full listing of all modifies.
And my Mod still lacks of testing.

[Peter Ebbesen]

At low levels, fireballs and flares tend to hit something despite their precision if they are in a target rich environment and you will not take friendly casualties since everybody has fire resistance - but you will probably have the Anathenant Salamanders and Dragons along for their priest levels rather than their fire magic - which is as it should be: They are priests first and mages second. You do not have your priests around to form firing squads but to keep your troops in shape while they chew up the opposition.

At high levels, incinerate is precision 100 and accuracy is not an issue - and your priests are armed and dangerous. Still great for shepherding an army of high-bless Lava Warriors if you like that sort of thing, but able to take potshots at anybody who raises his head at the wrong time.

The Abysian mages, the Warlock Apprentice and Warlock, have astral 100 precision attacks in combat.

Arguing that since after a certain late-game turn ordinary troops are no longer useful priest levels are less important and should thus be seriously discounted would seem to indicate that the mod is directed specifically towards long games rather than both short, medium, and long games, as high level priests are very, very, valuable in both short and medium games. (I also find them useful in long games to quickly flip dominion of a newly occupied province but you might not)

If your intention with the mod is to make a mod for long-term games solely, then my apologies for not understanding it earlier: It would explain a number of your design decisions and I suggest you amend your first post to make this clear, if that is indeed your desire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zen]

It's like watching Peter really lay into a punching bag that just sways back and forth until frustration or exhaustion take it's toll. Perhaps he will start using headbutts for emphasis.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Cohen]

I don't believe my MOD is for long term games only but even for every game lenght.
Warlocks (both type) are rarely used in battle since they S1 or S1 first need a path booster if you want a good 100% precision (you've only paralize, useful only against big guys, and you should shoot at, if they're in mid of troops ... you'll hit the nearest), and for S1 ... well ... not so many choices. I know there's communion and power of the sphere, but Abysya isn't go good at this, even because don't forget Warlocks are your blood hunter and researchers ... do you really think you can afford that many of them outside their main role?

Priests: if I've to revert to my dominion a province, I prefer to use indep mages. For 200 gold cost for a salamander I've better use along any army. However who can really afford a salamander or dragon in first turns except the very first turn? (because you start with 400). If you want a salamander you've to alchemize gems first, and probably to not buy any infantry that turn (I talk the firsts 4-5 turns ... because you need too to speed up your research to unleash your pretender) ...

[Peter Ebbesen]

Cohen said:
I don't believe my MOD is for long term games only but even for every game lenght.
Warlocks (both type) are rarely used in battle since they S1 or S1 first need a path booster if you want a good 100% precision (you've only paralize, useful only against big guys, and you should shoot at, if they're in mid of troops ... you'll hit the nearest), and for S1 ... well ... not so many choices. I know there's communion and power of the sphere, but Abysya isn't go good at this, even because don't forget Warlocks are your blood hunter and researchers ... do you really think you can afford that many of them outside their main role?



I guess I could point out that you have forgotten the stats of Warlocks (BBBSS+random) and your comments regarding their use on battlefields thus partially invalidated. As such, I can well believe that you do not regularly use them in battles. Warlocks are S2, not S1, which allows for mind burn, paralyze, solar rays, and with just a single +1 astral item (or power of the spheres or communion), soul slay, control, battle fortune, antimagic, opposition.

...Some of these are selectively useful, some are very useful for destroying enemies, some are good for troop support. The Warlock is certainly not the best battlefield mage, but useless on the field he is not.

From my point of view, Warlock Apprentices have two important roles to fill. Bloodhunting first and foremost, and being communion slaves in a pinch (I much prefer independent lizard shamans for that role if available, of course). Warlocks are researchers first and battlefield mages second, only used in numbers when Abysia is treatened.



Priests: if I've to revert to my dominion a province, I prefer to use indep mages. For 200 gold cost for a salamander I've better use along any army. However who can really afford a salamander or dragon in first turns except the very first turn? (because you start with 400). If you want a salamander you've to alchemize gems first, and probably to not buy any infantry that turn (I talk the firsts 4-5 turns ... because you need too to speed up your research to unleash your pretender) ...


One Dragon in the early game is enough, though it much depends on your strategy whether it is worthwhile buying him. If your strategy is built around a good bless effect and Lava Warriors, a Demonbred will do fine, since highly blessed Lava Warriors chew up independents like mad. However, since you talk about unleashing your pretender as a matter of cause, it would seem a fair guess that you belong solidly in the SC pretender school, in which case your priority would be cheap mages to jumpstart research rather than good scales, mages, priests, or troops.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Zen said:
It's like watching Peter really lay into a punching bag that just sways back and forth until frustration or exhaustion take it's toll. Perhaps he will start using headbutts for emphasis.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


No, so long as I remain open to the idea that I might be wrong and that those I debate with have at least a rudimentary ability to use reasoned arguments to support their cause, and hence that I may learn something from those I debate with, I tend to keep on going and going until my batteries run flat... Or until it is time to eat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Cohen]

Well, I've miswriten about Warlock, in fact I said in parentesys paralize, mind burn and such.
True Abysya uses Warlocks only when menaced, but it's pretty rare to see them in battle. You need them for blood hunt and research.

About a bless strategy, I've tried it once, and I will never try it again with Abysya.
Blessed troops are capitol only, cost a lot of resources and are far inferior to most other blessed troops. They can get easily arrowed (no shield, unless you go BoH ... but really there you lack in magic), and a plague or anything else in your capitol will cripple your holy troops production forever.
Sometimes I tried an AX bless to air shield Anthemaths, but nothing for troops.

Ant.Dragon is useful earlygame for keeping your morale high. But Aby troops really needs more than 1 priest behind them to keep them in line, their low number makes them easy to rout even from LI armed with javelins, or arrow fire.

Scales in the mod have been modified too to make them a good choice too (production, growth and fortune), or to make them less exploitable to earn points.

Yes I belong to the SC Pretender School. I tried other strategies (Great Warlock with air to Aim and good Fire to exploit flare at low fatigue, + water to quickness - Moloch as F9 blessing and massive fire battery - FoB to start early blood hunt and swith to devil earlier). Definitely it's the best way to lose, as the game it is. Any pretender, at least with Abysya, unable to take province by solo will make you dead. Any enemy can take 1 province with army, and 1 with pretender (til they get a 2nd army). Considering if your army is routed you're going to lose all your HI, and that you'll put 4 turn to set up a +/- 16 HI army this will totally halt your expansion.

To keep the pace you need so 1 army and 1 pretender to take possibly 2 provinces at turn, earn more money, and thus save Fire Gems ... because isn't an option to alchemize, it's a must for Abysya if you want to stay competitive, meanwhile other nations can recruit normally, and save their gems for later.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Cohen said:a plague or anything else in your capitol will cripple your holy troops production forever.



No it won't. Resources are not affected by loss of population, as long as you have at least 1K.


Yes I belong to the SC Pretender School.



Then you're a masochist. "Cohen, [...], The Enemy of the SC and all the overpowered and unbalanced things". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

This is strange I can't follow it.

Cohen plays Abysia most of the time in MP and strangely he wants to improve their power dramatically.

Cohen plays with a Virtue most of the time and he strangely wants to improve the power of the Virtue.

I think I'm detecting a trend. I don't know.

Abysia is an excellent nation right now. Blood is simply awesome. Let me repeat: awesome. The only other real blood nation in the world Mictlain pays dearly for the ability to blood hunt. Abysia does not. They have a decent military and can blood hunt. No wonder many consider them in the top 5 nations.

Yes this is the nation that needs vastly lower costs to "compete."

I'll wait for Zen's mod, thanks.

[Cohen]

My signature is pretty old.
Sadly I've to adapt myself on the gaming trend and rules. Without SC and Overpowered stuff you can't win.

Lately I'm playing too Arcoshepale, Pythium, Man, Caelum, Vanheim and Marignon, you're not such informed Huzurdaddy.
In fact to balance more a nation it's better if I know it.
I'd add the modify to Growth scale penalize Abysya on the other side, because it was usual for Aby playing with death-3 since Aby doesn't suffer from gold penalty ... but now there's bigger pop death (or growth in case of growth).
With the modify to drain life weapon Abysya will have more difficulties too to keep up all Demons Online with usual SC equip.

[PDF]

Hi again,
I repeat that I don't see any issue with either DB or Warlocks : those guys are tough, and their use is forging, rituals and army support (more for DB than W). They are capitol only, and expensive, fine. Using them for research or hunting is a waste...
The only problem I see with Aby is that the Warlock *Apprentice* are capitol only, and as they are needed for research and hunt Aby usually must sacrifice one for the other to a point I don't think is balanced - usually Aby *has* to find a Library to keep its research on a correct level. I remind a game I've won with Aby but my research was abysmal just because I did'nt manage to have a single Library on my continent !
Apart from that Aby don't need any boost IMHO ... Ppl should rather turn their attention to those poor TC and Ulm (standard theme) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif !

[Cohen]

I'd agree with you PDF, but making Warlock App. non capitol only, and Anth.Dragon capitol only would probably advantage Abysya a lot, giving it a 2B blood hunter everywhere, probably beating too Blood of Humans or Mictlan blood hunt (even if they ost 150 they can go without the Rod of Sang.Douzing) so you can forgo construction for this purposal.

The fact now Ant.Salamanders are 150 gold is to help a little in research, at least they have 2 paths for research and doesn't cost 200 gold each.

Ulm Default and IF troops have been boosted, same as commanders of same type.
Some Tien Chi troops (the elites, Imperial stuff, Red Guard, and Prince General) too, and Eunuchs gives a supply bonus (it's a sort of non-violent pillage in name of the Emperor of Tien Chi).

[Cainehill]

Cohen said:
Some Tien Chi ... Eunuchs gives a supply bonus (it's a sort of non-violent pillage in name of the Emperor of Tien Chi).



Non-violent pillage supply bonus? Sounds like cannibalism to me. "Who wants a piece of this nice plump roasted Eunuch?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Tuidjy]

Cohen, you are wasting your time. The author of a balance mod has to be
universally trusted. Zen may be. You, on the other hand...

If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that even Zen
takes care in changing mostly things that should affect all nations
equally, and is very careful not to greatly disturb the existing balance.

As for you, you go ahead and boost a nation that most good players consider
at least better than average, create a pretender with a level four path, etc...

I would not play your mod. I remember shaking my head in wonder at your
'Supercombatants: a dime the dozen' mod. Or at your signature, for that
matter. Go and try to offer some valuable input in Zen's thread. That
is within your abilities. A balance mod is not. Not that I object to
your wasting your time, but you are syphoning Posts that deserve to be read.

[Cohen]

To Cainehill: I wanted to give Eunuch a sort of usefulness. As burocrath the best thing he's able to do is to harrass peasants with taxes and such, in that case, he requisite food for a "superior" cause.

Tuidji: I personally believe there isn't existing balance for many causes. That I'm changing in my mod. I won't explain there my modifies, but I didn't expected anything else from you, since you're only able to play with Air AbUser Nations and clams.

[Tuidjy]

Cohen said:Tuidji: I personally believe there isn't existing balance for many causes. That I'm changing in my mod.

I know that you believe that there is no balance, but very few people agree with
your changes. Which means that no one will use the mod. Which means that this
thread is a waste, and the valuable comments would be better posted in Zen's
thread, because his mod deserves to be made canon.

I won't explain there my modifies,

Then this mod will remain nothing but a vanity project. Not that it deserves
anything better, mind you.

but I didn't expected anything else from you, since you're only able to play with Air AbUser Nations and clams.

Funny, I thought I have beaten you with Black Forest Ulm before. But then
again, I did destroy your devil army with some indie air mages, so yes, I can't
play the game without abusing air magic. And I guess I abused clams in that
game too, because I certainly had exactly eight. And was raiding, stealth
preaching, mad castling, and chain-summoning vampires... I am such an
abuser, indeed.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are challenging me to beat you without
using an air nation (there go Man, Vanheim, Caelum, Pythium, Arco, Marignon) and
without using clams. Just to be on the safe side, I will forgo the clammers
(bye, bye Atlantis, R'lyeh, T'ien Ch'i), the devil/vampire hoarders (so long
Mictan, Ulm, Abysia, Jotunheim). Excuse, me, I forgot, is death magic
overpowered this week? Because if it is, I cannot use Ermor and C'tis either.
And Petrify is overpowered because there is no resisting it. So I guess no
Pangea, because you know, with them earth mages, I could actually get to it.

So, you want me to play Machaka? Mountain citadel and human pretenders, of
course, can't have madcastling and SCs? No problem.

Only... what are you going to play? There is nothing left! And here I was,
thinking that Dominion II is a varied, complex and above all fun game.
I want my money back, Illwinter! That's four copies you tricked me
into buying, before Saint Cohen made me see the light! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Cohen]

I never challenged you.
In that game I was attacked from Caelum Ulm and Vanheim.

My mod will balance certain stuff, like Wrathful Skies, False Horror, and the Storm Staff. Not much more from air.
Will balance clams too.

Petrify, no. It's E5. If a nation can get it, it's because it deserves it.
Deathmagic has SC summons, but with Drain Life weapons changed probably it will be another matter.

Vampire Lords too have been changed, they can't no longer summon allies. If you want to have common vampires, use the normal spell. It costs slaves, that could be employed in another way.

[Yvelina]

Cohen, Petar was not seriously thinking that you were challenging him. He was following up your argument and reducing it to an absurd conclusion. I keep telling him that belligerant sarcasm is not exactly the best way of conveying one's point, but who is listening? His point, I think was:

There are many strategies that make a player very powerful, and her ability to implement many of them, in addition to expanding, site searching, and fortifying is what wins a game. Petar tried to show you that most races had at least one, and very often more than one strong strategy, and by removing options from Dominion, you are destroying what makes it great.

It is clear that you have taken aim at pretty much everything that can be used to quickly overwhelm a much more expensive force. But that is exactly the what makes a good player: the ability to inflict damage disproportinate to the cost to herself. Even if you remove the best ways of doing so, she will just pick up the next one.

If you keep doing it, you will be crippling the game. What is the use of magic if it cannot be used to quickly exploit a weakness of the enemy? Everything will be moving slower, there will be less oportunities to use one's skills, and the wars will Last much longer... so long in fact, that some of what you would have nerfed would again come into play.

For example, if you double the clam's cost, but also halve the game's pace, the role of clams is unchanged, you just have made the game more tedious.

You remove the ability to get Devils and Vampires for free? You make it harder to disperse archers' fiery salvos with a storm? Well, you just made the fairy queen's pixies and the undead archers much more valuable... and they are nothing to sneer at, already.

Each change has consequences that no one, not even the very best players can forsee without testing. This is why a careful approach is best, and the more respected the initiator, the better.