A simple thank you [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Richard

October 1st, 2004, 12:57 PM

NTJedi said:

This game could easily blow the Civilization game series out of the water upon the arrival of Dominions_3... especially if diplomacy features for the AI are added. I wonder if the developers will find a major publisher for Dominions_3 which will save us the hassle of buying Online.

A retail publisher? Yeah that would be great...

Here's what we can expect.

A rushed product to meet retail deadlines (ie full of bugs and dumbed down).
No royalties to the developers so the suits in marketing can buy new cars and take "clients" on marketing trips.
Crappy customer service, and almost no patch support.

Seriously I know if I were a fan of this game I wouldn't want a retail publisher for it. Illwinter would be out of business in no time at all.

Instead you get great customer service, direct interaction with the programming team AND the exectuvies from Shrapnel, monthly royalty checks to keep Johan and the guys in business (and we have never missed a check), and support of the community.

This might sound sarcastic, but seriously look at how many developers that are similiar to Illwinter have been ripped off this year by retail publishers...

Richard

October 1st, 2004, 12:59 PM

PDF said:

Gandalf Parker said:

NTJedi said:

This game could easily blow the Civilization game series out of the water upon the arrival of Dominions_3... especially if diplomacy features for the AI are added. I wonder if the developers will find a major publisher for Dominions_3 which will save us the hassle of buying Online.

From the looks of things, by then there wont be any.
Maybe someone will iron out the hassles in offering Digital Downloads instead.

Why don't Shrapnel offer that already ? I've been very impressed with the download system Stardock offers for their (GalCiv) and other games (look at totalgaming.net) for example ...

We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

msew

October 1st, 2004, 04:53 PM

why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

Ironhawk

October 1st, 2004, 05:01 PM

Richard said:
We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

But you are already hosting the download of the Dom2 Demo, which is the about the same size as the Retail Version as far as I can see. How would it be more complicated to just host a retail copy of the exe and have Demo functionality in place until a user enters a purchased CDKey?

On the topic of a download game being more or less easy than a CD based on in terms of piracy I have to disagree given the prevalence of pirated retail CD games. Particularly with the advent of p2p networks you dont even need a strong server in order for a malicious user to share out thier ripped executables.

And on a side note: download only games do not implicity require an Online manual. Look at how Spider Web Software (http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com) does thier indy games. You download the exe, buy the CDKey, and then eventually you are shipped a CD and a manual as well. But as with most games (dom2 included) people rarely learn the game from the manual but rather from trial/error, in-game tutorials, and user-authored walkthroughs/FAQs.

And now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for voicing a disagreeing opinion I want to state for the record that I am very much appreciative of Shrapnel and Illwinter for Dom2 and by no means wish to make them lose money. My comments are solely in response to the running dialog in this thread.

Richard

October 1st, 2004, 06:09 PM

msew said:
why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

Our experience with download games is they don't add sales to the books, and they open a game for much easier attempts to pirate the game.

Since most of our games do not offer copy protection, which is a choice of each developers and our recommendation, it doesn't make sense to put the manual into public domain by making it downloadable.

And there is no way any publisher, or developer, would consider putting the download file out for folks to distribute via a service like bit torrent. There is almost not way to control piracy that way, and how would you integrate that into a payment portal, etc.

Again we do download games, but only where it makes sense.

Richard

October 1st, 2004, 06:21 PM

Ironhawk said:

Richard said:
We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

But you are already hosting the download of the Dom2 Demo, which is the about the same size as the Retail Version as far as I can see. How would it be more complicated to just host a retail copy of the exe and have Demo functionality in place until a user enters a purchased CDKey?

There's also integration with the store software and other considerations. Also this is just going to complicate things at release. When we put the demo out, we have mirror sites to publish it. This helps the load out somewhat. Imagine having everyone who want's the game trying to download it from one server at the same time. With a demo people can deal with timeouts, with a paid copy of a game people are going to get pissed.

The other side of this is that it just frustrates most customers. As much as people like the idea, few have the network infrastructure to download a game without multiple interruptions. We get no complaints about folks downloading our demos, but we definetly get complaints from folks buying the game when they run into similiar problems. And finally there is the manual concern. Printed manuals prevent piracy more than a CD key, or other forms of copy protection, especially with a game like Dominions.

On the topic of a download game being more or less easy than a CD based on in terms of piracy I have to disagree given the prevalence of pirated retail CD games. Particularly with the advent of p2p networks you dont even need a strong server in order for a malicious user to share out thier ripped executables.

I agree, that's where a printed manual comes in. Other forms of copy protection are really useless in many cases.

And on a side note: download only games do not implicity require an Online manual. Look at how Spider Web Software (http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com) does thier indy games. You download the exe, buy the CDKey, and then eventually you are shipped a CD and a manual as well. But as with most games (dom2 included) people rarely learn the game from the manual but rather from trial/error, in-game tutorials, and user-authored walkthroughs/FAQs.

Again that depends on the game. In the case of Dom 2 your probably right, but again that's something to consider for the future. And if we ship the CD and manual, then really we don't solve the original posters problem. He hates the complications of shipping a product to him.

And now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for voicing a disagreeing opinion I want to state for the record that I am very much appreciative of Shrapnel and Illwinter for Dom2 and by no means wish to make them lose money. My comments are solely in response to the running dialog in this thread.

No problem with a disagreement, but we've formed our opinions based on sales of downloadable products and CD products for 5 years. We were selling download products long before broadband was even a consideration.

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 06:24 PM

I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

Richard

October 1st, 2004, 06:37 PM

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

Because retail is the enemy of a complex game, period. A game that complex in retail will have a large number of returns, and we won't be able to compete with the price of the game once it's price get's slashed after the first few months. You can't do retail and Online effectively, you have to do one or the other not both. As far as Stardock, you would have to ask them. We have done the research on this and it doesn't work. We have also been in retail before, and have had offers to put our games in retail, but we don't do that in service to our developers. We want them to make as much money as they can so they can make as many great games as possible.

As far as the download for some games, it's something we have to evaluate on a game by game basis. And if we do that then we have to forgo the printed Version. Doing both doesn't work.

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 07:07 PM

"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

Gandalf Parker

October 1st, 2004, 07:15 PM

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Stardock wrote their own package for that. Its kindof at the level that "shopping cart" sites were a few years ago. Those who have it working have probably written their own. The packages available are buggy and dangerous on security matters with peoples shopping info. The requirements to make it work are still being ironed out (such as, what does it take to handle the load of releasing a long-awaited game).

Of course NOW if someone wants to do a shopping cart site then what it takes, what package to download and install, what you need to pay and to whom in order to get one that wont put you in the headlines, thats all worked out. For Digital Downloads its all looking good, but its not there yet.

Everything has its pros and cons. Shrapnel could probably drop work on other things and write a package to gamble on breaking into the DD market early. But why? What they are doing is working fine.

Gandalf Parker

October 1st, 2004, 07:25 PM

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. <much perfectly reasonable logic snipped>

Arryn you are such an expert on everything. Really.

But while you are at it, why dont they make Dom2 into an XBox game? Thats going well.

Or maybe they can release a Dom1 Version for PDA's or Cell Phones?

I know. They should put full page ads in every gaming magazine.

And they can send free CD's of Dom1 (which did hook alot of people) in the snail mail to everyone in America. AOL made it work.

Microsoft is able to handle huge impacts of suddenly announcing the release of something long awaited. All they do is maintain servers all over the country load-balanced.

Of course there are people who make things work. And for each one there are dozens who crash and burn making the effort to jump in fast. What you are really asking is why doesnt Shrapnel jump in and gamble the big bucks (or big crash) like a few others are doing. Everyone at Shrapnel are gamers (according to their "about us" page) but that doesnt mean they have to do their business like a Dom2 newbie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Richard

October 1st, 2004, 07:52 PM

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

Arryn,

Morrowind and HOI are not niche games in the same way Dominions 2 is. HOI is wargaming lite, Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both. Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mattered to be good at the game. A traditional publisher would have advised Illwinter to take BOTH out of their game to reach a larger audience.

We have done the research, and yes I know Brad Wardell very well. In fact we have talked in the past about doing some of the very same things he is doing with his drengin network (now totalgaming.net). But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable. Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

And again we can't do both like Spiderweb for the reasons I stated above. It is either one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

Yes retail IS the enemy of niche products and complex games. In fact it is the enemy of PC games. PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement. We have intentionaly turned away retail offers from numerous companies based on our research on how retail affects your product line and profits. We also were in retail at one point with some of our previous titles (pre-Shrapnel) but we learned how bad retail is for most developers the hard way.

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 08:37 PM

Despite the fact you're just being snide and sarcastic, which is not only unlike you, but bebeath you, I'm actually going to bother replying to each point.

Gandalf Parker said:
Arryn you are such an expert on everything.

Envious?

Gandalf Parker said:
But while you are at it, why dont they make Dom2 into an XBox game? Thats going well.

Wrong demographic. Other than that, why not? Dom 2 isn't resource-intensive so it should actually work on that hardware. (No need to answer, my reply is a rhetorical comeback to your sarcasm.)

Gandalf Parker said:
Or maybe they can release a Dom1 Version for PDA's or Cell Phones?

Nah. Screen's too small.

Gandalf Parker said:
I know. They should put full page ads in every gaming magazine.

No need. The free press from CG and CGW is more than enough.

Gandalf Parker said:
And they can send free CD's of Dom1 (which did hook alot of people) in the snail mail to everyone in America. AOL made it work.

AOL can afford to do that since they charge more for service than almost every other ISP in the US, and with economies of scale, their incremental costs are neglible compared to mom & pop ISPs, which would be the ISP equivalent of indie game publishers. If IW was as big as Bioware they might well be able to afford to stuff free CDs in the gaming magazines. But if IW was that big, they'd also be able to afford a UI programmer ...

Gandalf Parker said:
Microsoft is able to handle huge impacts of suddenly announcing the release of something long awaited. All they do is maintain servers all over the country load-balanced.

Given the unit counts for something like Dom 2, comparisons to Microsoft or EA or Sony are pointless. Go back to valid comparisons like Stardock or Spiderweb.

Gandalf Parker said:
Of course there are people who make things work. And for each one there are dozens who crash and burn making the effort to jump in fast.

The point of doing research is twofold, first to see what those who succeeded did right so you can emulate them, and second to see what those who failed did wrong so you can avoid those mistakes. You do not do research to justify fear of failure. And it's fear of failure that you're using as a stick to beat back questions of what's preventing the emulation of success.

Gandalf Parker said:
What you are really asking is why doesnt Shrapnel jump in and gamble the big bucks (or big crash) like a few others are doing.

No, Gandalf. That's not what I asked. I didn't ask why they aren't doing X (which Richard has already answered several times). I asked what's preventing them from doing X. A subtle, but important difference. I was trying to understand whether Shrapnel's not doing something is due to lack of resources, internal politics (or some other reason that they might not wish to divulge), since the reasons being given do not make sense to me when I scratch beneath the surface of them.

Richard made general statements and I cited specific examples to the contrary. That's elementary debate and logic. He made claims and all I'm doing is asking if he can back his claims up. I realize that he's not obligated to "prove" anything, but if he's going to bother to try to do so, then his "proof" should be able to withstand objective scrutiny.

NTJedi

October 1st, 2004, 08:38 PM

Richard said:
A retail publisher? Yeah that would be great...

Here's what we can expect.

A rushed product to meet retail deadlines (ie full of bugs and dumbed down).

Develop and finish the game... then find a publisher. During the time before release provides more Q&A testing.

Many gamers don't trust buying anything Online and will never get the game if the game can only be purchased Online. I'm only suggesting the developers should find a way to get their game into the local stores otherwise there are thousands and thousands of gamers they will never reach.

Gandalf Parker

October 1st, 2004, 08:45 PM

NTJedi said:
Many gamers don't trust buying anything Online and will never get the game if the game can only be purchased Online. I'm only suggesting the developers should find a way to get their game into the local stores otherwise there are thousands and thousands of gamers they will never reach.

Actually I think there are local retailers who carry it. And if you know of one you want to carry it then have them contact Annette.

Gandalf Parker

October 1st, 2004, 08:54 PM

Arryn said:
Despite the fact you're just being snide and sarcastic, which is not only unlike you, but bebeath you, I'm actually going to bother replying to each point.

yes lately I am quite unlike me on the forums.

Richard made general statements and I cited specific examples to the contrary. That's elementary debate and logic. He made claims and all I'm doing is asking if he can back his claims up. I realize that he's not obligated to "prove" anything, but if he's going to bother to try to do so, then his "proof" should be able to withstand objective scrutiny.

But you are comparing to people like StarDock. Unless stardock releases their software, or sells it as a package, and makes it clear what it takes to do what they are doing, then you are asking why they cant create what stardock created?

Im not knocking Brad for the accomplishment of StarDock but it was (and still is) a pretty big risk on his part to create a system for managing software downloads, credit cards, and serial IDs. Have you used it? Personally I find it abit obnoxious and would not want to have a Version of such software loaded on my system for every company that I want to buy products from. Yes its a working package but I think I would wait for a generic security tested package to become available the way shopping cart and forum software has.

If they were going to drop what they were doing and write a web package Id rather see a generic PbEM site since Ive not been able to find one I think that might even be marketable.

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 08:56 PM

NTJedi said:

Richard said:
A retail publisher? Yeah that would be great...

Here's what we can expect.

A rushed product to meet retail deadlines (ie full of bugs and dumbed down).

Develop and finish the game... then find a publisher. During the time before release provides more Q&A testing.

Fine and dandy if the developers can afford to up-front all the development costs, including the market research to properly design the game to begin with so it's something Users will actually want to play, and for internal testers so that Users can actually play the silly thing.

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 09:01 PM

Gandalf Parker said:
Im not knocking Brad for the accomplishment of StarDock but it was (and still is) a pretty big risk on his part to create a system for managing software downloads, credit cards, and serial IDs. Have you used it?

Yes, I have and continue to do so. BTW, other companies do downloads (for business apps), but I didn't mention them because they are Windows-only downloads that require IE6, and they aren't games.

Gandalf Parker said:
Personally I find it abit obnoxious and would not want to have a Version of such software loaded on my system for every company that I want to buy products from.

IIRC, you aren't forced to.

Gandalf Parker said:
Yes its a working package but I think I would wait for a generic security tested package to become available the way shopping cart and forum software has.

That'll be a long wait ...

Graeme Dice

October 1st, 2004, 09:05 PM

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 09:12 PM

First, Richard, thanks for your replies and for taking the time to make them.

Richard said:
HOI is wargaming lite

Careful. Did you intend to post flamebait for all the HOI fans that play Dom 2 (of which there are many)? HOI is no more "wargaming lite" than SE4 is a lite 4X game. HOI is a grand strategic wargame. Just because the scale is large doesn't make it any less of a wargame given all the work HOI's devs have gone through to try to model the setting for the game. Also, HOI and Dom 2 are both strategy games, and both are of comparable complexity. They just aren't complex in identical ways.

Richard said:
Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both.

It is. Complexity isn't measured solely by the user's interaction with the game. What's going on under the hood counts too. But I'm not going to debate this further with you as it's a tangent to the main point.

Richard said:
Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mastered to be good at the game.

As can be said of most good strategy games. Dom 2 isn't more complex than another of Paradox's games, Victoria, which is also sold retail.

Richard said:
But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable.

Thanks for this answer. May I ask why? Specifically, how is it that some other companies (such as Spiderweb) can make it work? What I'm trying to understand is what's different about Shrapnel, or IW, or Dominions that prevents it from being viable?

Richard said:
Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

True. But GalCiv is profitable nonetheless, and they have succeeded in doing what you'd claimed couldn't work. But I don't mean to rehash that. Now if you tell me that you cannot replicate their download method because Stardock subsidized the manhours that went into making (and maintaining) it using the income from their non-games, that I'd understand. Assuming that Shrapnel was open to the idea, though, would it be feasible to *license* their download technology so that you needn't reinvent the wheel?

Richard said:
PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement.

Which has to do with demographics of the buyers of most games, and the cost-savings of creating (dumbed-down) console games as opposed to costlier PC games (which typically have an older and more demanding audience).

Thanks again for your replies and for your time.

Gandalf Parker

October 1st, 2004, 09:17 PM

Arryn said:

Gandalf Parker said:
Yes its a working package but I think I would wait for a generic security tested package to become available the way shopping cart and forum software has.

That'll be a long wait ...

Really? It shouldnt be. No longer than it took for the other packages to appear. Shorter if any.

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 09:25 PM

Gandalf Parker said:
Really? It shouldnt be. No longer than it took for the other packages to appear. Shorter if any.

I disagree for the simple reason that there is far less demand for electronic media distribution systems than for general-purpose shopping carts (which are used mainly for snail-mail shipments). It's mainly only needed for the software industry, whose products are already in electronic format, while shopping carts are used for all sorts of products and services sold via the Web. More importantly, though, the big companies that want to make their software available for download already have systems in place. And that includes big game companies like EA and Sony, since you can download full working betas of their games in this fashion. That leaves just the "small fry" game companies (small in comparison to EA, Sony, Symantec, etc.) to have to either develop their own systems, license someone else's, pay someone else to do it for them, or wait for your eventual GPL system.

Zen

October 1st, 2004, 09:33 PM

Now I'm anxiously awaiting Arryn to jump out of a cake and say "Hello, I'm Derek Smart!"

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 09:42 PM

Zen said:
Now I'm anxiously awaiting Arryn to jump out of a cake and say "Hello, I'm Derek Smart!"

Dammit, Zen, you didn't need to go so far out of your way to be so obnoxiously and gratuitously insulting as to compare me to that unrepentant, egomaniacal, lying blowhard. And just when you were beginning to have me fooled into thinking you'd gone all soft and sweet. I should've known better. hmmph! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/firedevil.gif

Zen

October 1st, 2004, 09:51 PM

I still think you've got ravishing elbows and cute toes!
I thought this thread needed it. For only that reaction.

So choice.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Arryn

October 1st, 2004, 11:38 PM

Zen said:
I thought this thread needed it. For only that reaction.

I know way more about programming than Derek does in his dreams. Heck, I probably know more about everything than Derek. (Not really, but Gandalf thinks so when it's that time of the month for him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) I'm more charming than Derek (and more modest, too). And I'm way sexier than he is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif BTW, elbows and toes aren't the parts of a gal that you should go out of your way to flatter (though toes do count). In addition to the usual spots foremost on you boy's minds, try hips, thighs, ankles, neck, and ears.

So if you're going to compare me to an unrepentant egomaniacal deceiver who thinks they know everything, the least you could do is compare me to Brother Gates.

Zen

October 1st, 2004, 11:40 PM

Arryn said:
So if you're going to compare me to an unrepentant egomaniacal deceiver who thinks they know everything, the least you could do is compare me to Brother Gates.

I wasn't comparing, I was nudging in a jovial manner to get those pie in the sky foaming shaving cream dreams back down to flood plain level http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

deccan

October 1st, 2004, 11:44 PM

You know I'm curious what the technical issue with digital downloads are. It seems to be fairly straightforward, unless you want to have very sophisticated anti-piracy measures, so that a certain downloaded copy of a game can only run on a specific machine or something.

FYI, I'm a regular buyer of e-books, mostly from Fictionwise.com, so I'm used to measures of this kind.

Gandalf Parker

October 2nd, 2004, 12:51 AM

deccan said:
FYI, I'm a regular buyer of e-books, mostly from Fictionwise.com, so I'm used to measures of this kind.

Ebook distribution packages are available, so anyone can buy the software and quickly setup a site.

They also have an advantage in not having to manage much in the way of being flooded when they release a long awaited product.

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 07:09 AM

Arryn said:

Richard said:
Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mastered to be good at the game.

As can be said of most good strategy games. Dom 2 isn't more complex than another of Paradox's games, Victoria, which is also sold retail.

I am a fan of Paradox games but Victoria is by no way as complex as dominions .
Warfare is more or less reduced to 1!!! unit like infantry with guards .
If you read the fanmade Victoria manual vickywicky and the economic model explanations on this page and a little bit the forum you know almost everything about Victoria .

After 1 month you know most important things about it while in dominions you even discover new things after almost a year .

Victoria has much more unneeded micro (pop / revolution management ) than Dominions but is not as complex . It is more a history simulation with focus on the economy .

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 08:05 AM

Boron,

It's obvious that in however little time you actually played Vicky you succeeded in learning very little about what the game's about, and what goes on "behind the scenes". Your summation of Vicky is tantamount to someone saying that Dom 2 just has magic item making, combat, and spellcasting. As we all know, Dom 2 is much deeper than that. So is Vicky, whether you appreciate it or not. I'm not going to waste my time (nor that of this forum's members) trying to educate you on just why Vicky is more complex than you realize. This isn't the proper forum for that. Paradox has excellent forums where I'm sure many many players would froth at the chance to set you straight were you to post there what you just posted here.

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 10:12 AM

Arryn please try briefly .
I played Victoria excessevly about 1 month this maybe a bit too short but not much .

Really seriously : In Victoria you first try to setup your economy by building railroads , factories and upgrading pops .
I fail to see though how this requires a lot of skill ?
It is a lot of micro if you have a big country but after playing a bit each player knows which Factories are important and/or profitable .

Warfare is ultrasimple because this is not the focus of victoria . Though there are now about 30 different land units/brigade attachments you normally chose only 2-3 types so it is almost like in classical EU2 .

Then there is only left Diplomacy .

In Dominions instead you have really almost endless possibilities because there are so many viable strategies .
I think you can say Dominions is much deeper than Victoria though these games shouldn't really be compared .

Annette

October 2nd, 2004, 10:35 AM

I don't post here often. but those of you who know me also know I'm drawn to trainwreck threads like a moth drawn to a light bulb. I find it fascinating how a thread can start with something as well intentioned as a "simple thank you" and evolve into a discussion which includes...well a discussion like this one.

I'd like to say thank you to everyone here. Thank you for the kind words and compliments which inspired such thoughtful, passionate discussion. I'm sure Illwinter appreciates your analysis of the best way to bring their games to market, as do we. We never want to lose sight of the fact that without our customers purchasing, playing and supporting our games, we would not be here. And we're proud of our forums where we encourage discussion of ideas, are able to answer questions, and watch the development of a community where players and developers come together to make game play a great experience.

We appreciate those of you who purchase our games through our e-store. And we pride ourselves on making it a positive experience. We accept just about any form of payment out there, credit cards, checks, money orders and PayPal. We offer free shipping on domestic orders via USPS priority mail. We ship to any destination in the world to which UPS and USPS offer service. We have an on-line customer support center where your submissions are answered in a matter of hours, not days.

But we do realize some people are hesitant to order on line, and for them we have available a downloadable order form which can be mailed or faxed to us. And for those who prefer to buy the game in their local game shop, we're there, too. No, you won't find our games in the "big box" chain retailers. But you will find our games in local, independently owned game and hobby shops. And we encourage you to support those brick and mortar shops by spending your gaming dollars there rather than in the chains. You won't find our games in the same store where you buy your vacuum cleaner. You'll find them in stores that are dedicated to the gaming industry.

Just because you find a game on the shelf of Best Buy or EB Games, does not necessarily mean the people involved in putting the game there would consider the release a "success." Only Paradox and Strategy First can say if HOI was a successful release. My observations are that HOI (and GalCiv) were introduced into mass retail by Strategy First. SF is currently operating under Chapter 11 protection from their creditors, including their developers who are reportedly owed 1.7 million in unpaid royalties. Paradox has said publically SF owes them well into the 6 figure range. Fortunately for gamers, Paradox has been able to continue to support their titles since their departure from their publisher. But not all of SF's developers have been able to survive such a hit. This is not a road we want to risk taking - not for us or our developers.

In my personal opinion (and I'm not a developer but I am married to one) the single benefit a developer of a "complex" game realizes by having a title pushed into mass retail is the ego trip. I'm sure it's wonderful to walk into Kmart and see your game on their shelves (even marked down to $9.99). But the reasons you don't see our developers' titles in Kmart are the very core of Shrapnel Games' founding principles. Shrapnel was born out of Tim's experience having designed "complex" games which were published through traditional methods and sold at mass retail. While the games were "successful", it was not a financially satisfying experience for him. Thus emerged Shrapnel Games. You may find it interesting (or not) to read the About Us page on this site. Perhaps it will help explain why we do things the way we do.

That's not to say we're adverse to change. Quite the opposite. We are poised for growth. We listen carefully to what our customers have to say; we watch industry trends; we respond to economic turns; we research and experiment new ideas. We're aware that many companies like ours are expanding the digital download method of game distribution. We watch new releases and listen to what their customers are saying. At this time there is a new release on the market that some folks report has taken over 23 hours to download. We're not ready to jump on that bandwagon. And I think it's interesting that while the dd trend is on the rise, so is, according to CNN and others, the price of games.

Again, thank you for using our forums to let us know what you think. It's important to us. I fear we may be sounding a bit defensive that our philosophies are being questioned. Please know if we do sound defensive, it's because this is our passion; it's our love. And we are most grateful for those who would prefer to purchase our games in a different manner than what we offer, but who purchase our games anyway. We trust you find the games are worth effort. So to you, "a simple thank you."

Gandalf Parker

October 2nd, 2004, 11:14 AM

Annette said:
At this time there is a new release on the market that some folks report has taken over 23 hours to download. We're not ready to jump on that bandwagon.

Ive seen those comments in the newsGroups. Put next to the comments here from people saying they got their copy in the mail in about 24 hours I guess does make the DD push not quite as preferable as it first appears to be.

alexti

October 2nd, 2004, 11:41 AM

alexti

October 2nd, 2004, 12:00 PM

NTJedi said:
I wonder if the developers will find a major publisher for Dominions_3 which will save us the hassle of buying Online.

I doubt that major publisher would do any good to Dominions. Just imagine what kind of publicity it would get: Mr. Casual Gamer comes in the local shop and start browsing. He knows that if the game title doesn't end with 2, 3 or better 4, it's surely some buggy and boring game. He sees nice Dominion 3 box. 3 is good! He examines the box: ... 25 nations - that's really great! ... you will be playing a God - wow, that's cool. He rushes home and installs the game. But where's 30 minutes introduction movie? And where are 4D graphics?? And how does one actually starts the game? Some time later gamer's army of elite knights gets demolished by a horder of undead spirits. AI is cheating!!! He couldn't get so many units fairly! And why mosquitoes on the battlefield don't have shadows?! Totally unrealistic!

Next game he brings the game back to the store with appropriate comments.

Whole thing will probably create a bad press and drive the price down while the increase in sales won't be significant. It's highly unlikely that somebody will enjoy Dominions as their first strategy games. The market for Dominions seems to be experienced strategy players who mastered simpler titles, and those people are usually watching for promising titles, visit newsGroups and forums, so that they're likely to find Dominions anyway.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 02:18 PM

alexti said:
Well, it depends how one defines "work". True, they sold a lot of copies through the retail. But they didn't get paid for those copies. Read Brad's comments here: http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895

Thank you very much for posting that link! While it's the opposite of your intention, you actually backed up my position(s):

That article pretty well slams SF for not paying Stardock for GalCiv's retail sales, it also mentions that they intend to release their next game by both download and retail (via Ubisoft as a publisher). So Stardock, in spite of its bad experience with SF apparently still believes that retail has some merit, else why would they give it a third try? Perhaps the retail sales figures showed them that they *would* have gotten a decent amount of money were it not for the exception of making a mistake in choosing their publisher? I can only hope that Ubisoft treats them better than SF did (they can hardly do worse).

The article also conclusively states that Stardock (1.) doesn't have a significant problem with piracy from digital downloads, and (2.) is showing a healthy profit (or at least paying all their bills) by going that route.

Brad also answers the "question" regarding console vs. PC games:

I think that's a major reason consoles are starting to really crush the PC game market. People are getting fed up. They're getting a cold pizza and being told to lump it. It doesn't have to be that way. For example, The Political Machine comes out in August. We plan to have a free update available for it on the first week that adds some new features and extra goodies. There will be "bug" fixes but they'll likely be bugs no one would run into. And we'll put out updates as regularly as Ubi Soft will let us ... If the competing technology (consoles) can't be updated with new stuff after release, then you should exploit that advantage. And that means add new features, not use the Internet to supply updates that finish the game!

Basically, it's the developers/publishers releasing shoddy, half-finished games (knowing that they can finish it after release by providing patches) that he says is killing the PC market.

His concluding paragraph bears repeating:

Make it a no-brainer for someone to purchase games electronically by keeping costs reasonable and make using the games they've purchased easy and convenient. After all, it's their pizza, deliver it to them as they want and they'll support you with future orders.

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 02:37 PM

Arryn said:
Boron,

It's obvious that in however little time you actually played Vicky you succeeded in learning very little about what the game's about, and what goes on "behind the scenes". Your summation of Vicky is tantamount to someone saying that Dom 2 just has magic item making, combat, and spellcasting. As we all know, Dom 2 is much deeper than that. So is Vicky, whether you appreciate it or not. I'm not going to waste my time (nor that of this forum's members) trying to educate you on just why Vicky is more complex than you realize. This isn't the proper forum for that. Paradox has excellent forums where I'm sure many many players would froth at the chance to set you straight were you to post there what you just posted here.

I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 02:43 PM

Boron said:
I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

1. Actually, it would take me more than 5 minutes.

2. I told you this isn't the proper place.

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

4. Trying to goad me into it won't work (for you, or anyone else). In spite of any mistaken belief to the contrary (based upon my past behavior) that you, Zen, or Archaeolept may have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

archaeolept

October 2nd, 2004, 02:46 PM

me? what did I do? :O

;-)

I mean, i didn't much care for battlecruiser 3000 i guess...

;P

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 02:56 PM

archaeolept said:
me? what did I do? :O

Just checking to see if you're awake. In answer to your semi-rhetorical question: Nothing *this* time. Call it an application of the Bush Doctrine (a preemptive strike). I'm trying to put to rest the notion that I'm easy (with respect to getting a rise out of me).

Tag, you're it ...

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 03:15 PM

Arryn said:

Boron said:
I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

1. Actually, it would take me more than 5 minutes.

2. I told you this isn't the proper place.

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

4. Trying to goad me into it won't work (for you, or anyone else). In spite of any mistaken belief to the contrary (based upon my past behavior) that you, Zen, or Archaeolept may have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Sigh .
I would have liked to discuss a bit about the complexity of Victoria compared to Domininions though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .

So 1 Last try http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif . You just write all the excuses because you know yourself that Victoria is by no means as complex as Dominions but don't want to admit that i am right once with this claim after the motto "every dog has its day" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

Truper

October 2nd, 2004, 03:27 PM

Arryn said:

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

Maybe you'd waste less time if you stopped repeating yourself.

alexti

October 2nd, 2004, 03:32 PM

Arryn said:

alexti said:
Well, it depends how one defines "work". True, they sold a lot of copies through the retail. But they didn't get paid for those copies. Read Brad's comments here: http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895

Thank you very much for posting that link! While it's the opposite of your intention, you actually backed up my position(s):

That's why I said that it depends how one defines "work". If the goal is to sell through retail to make profit, than it didn't work. If it was done for vanity or for publicity, that it worked. For example, some people pay to publish their books.

Arryn said:
The article also conclusively states that Stardock (1.) doesn't have a significant problem with piracy from digital downloads, and (2.) is showing a healthy profit (or at least paying all their bills) by going that route.

Stardock is showing healthy profits because they sell other (non-game) products, that's also a reason why it was worthwhile for them to invest into electronic sales software and infrastructure. Brad was mentioning that he was prepared to take loss on GalCiv for Windows from the very beginning. And, interestingly, in each of his attempts to sale various Versions of GalCiv through different retailers he got burned every time. Not sure why he thinks it will be different next time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Maybe, having his games in retail stores helps to promote his business software, so he doesn't mind taking a loss.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 03:37 PM

Truper said:
Maybe you'd waste less time if you stopped repeating yourself.

Perhaps. I'd waste even less time if I ignored you. Consider yourself welcome to go back into the woodwork you crawled out of. Bye.

Zen

October 2nd, 2004, 03:38 PM

I can just imagine wearing a cowboy hat, sitting on the top of the engine of a bullet train yelling "Yeehaw" as we go plummeting into a canyon from a bridge. Right beside me Quantum has on his maid outfit and a terrier mumbling "best intentions!".

archaeolept

October 2nd, 2004, 03:41 PM

just to keep this on topic, what I really don't understand is why Arryn feels the frontal armor of the T-34 was so second-rate:

Arryn said:

I can assure you that the T-34's frontal armor was made predominantly of tinfoil

Gandalf Parker

October 2nd, 2004, 03:41 PM

Arryn said:
That article pretty well slams SF for not paying Stardock for GalCiv's retail sales, it also mentions that they intend to release their next game by both download and retail (via Ubisoft as a publisher). So Stardock, in spite of its bad experience with SF apparently still believes that retail has some merit, else why would they give it a third try?

Thats half of it (Brads half). Anything along the line of what Strategy First offered creates a time frame to pay off expenses before there is a profit. SF tried some things to boost sales which didnt happen and has now filed for bankruptcy.

Perhaps the retail sales figures showed them that they *would* have gotten a decent amount of money were it not for the exception of making a mistake in choosing their publisher? I can only hope that Ubisoft treats them better than SF did (they can hardly do worse).

Developers tend to feel that their game never sells as well as it would have if its not seen by every gamer. To an extent thats true but the charges for getting games into retail can kill the profit margin. At this point Brad is making obvious moves to increase his "name brand" status. We will see if he is going to shoot for the same retail level as Shrapnel does, or something more mainstream. For his own games he is willing to gamble abit more than for developers who are talking to him, which only makes good sense.

The article also conclusively states that Stardock (1.) doesn't have a significant problem with piracy from digital downloads, and (2.) is showing a healthy profit (or at least paying all their bills) by going that route.

but that is thru the stardock software.

Basically, it's the developers/publishers releasing shoddy, half-finished games (knowing that they can finish it after release by providing patches) that he says is killing the PC market.

That may have been part of why developers like Brad and Tim create their own publishing companies like StarDock and Shrapnel.

His concluding paragraph bears repeating:

Make it a no-brainer for someone to purchase games electronically by keeping costs reasonable and make using the games they've purchased easy and convenient. After all, it's their pizza, deliver it to them as they want and they'll support you with future orders.

I dont think anyone is arguing the obvius advantages of Digital Downloads. Just that its not available yet unless you want to create the system from scratch which is a heavy gamble. There are plenty of publishers willing to offer the higher-priced gambles and there are plenty of them being ranted against right now by their developers or becoming headlines with their firing, dropping projects, or bankruptcy.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 03:47 PM

alexti said:
If it was done for vanity or for publicity, that it worked.

If Brad's intention in selling retail was solely advertising, that's still a valid reason. Making a profit from doing so would be a bonus in that case. However, I sincerely doubt he'd go through the effort of getting hitched with Ubisoft if he didn't intend to seek a profit from retail. Seems to me that the possible "reward" from using that as an ad technique wouldn't outweigh the effort involved. I'd think he'd get a better bang for the buck advertising in other ways. Which leaves the profit motive, since Brad doesn't strike me as the vain type.

alexti said:
Brad was mentioning that he was prepared to take loss on GalCiv for Windows from the very beginning.

Has he said, anywhere, that he has actually lost money on GalCiv sales? Or that GalCiv's Online sales aren't profitable?

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 03:49 PM

archaeolept said:
just to keep this on topic, what I really don't understand is why Arryn feels the frontal armor of the T-34 was so second-rate:

Arryn said:

I can assure you that the T-34's frontal armor was made predominantly of tinfoil

You misquoted me. I said "cheap tinfoil and spit". If you're going to quote me, please get it right.

Esben Mose Hansen

October 2nd, 2004, 04:10 PM

In between all the flame wars, there is some interesting stuff here. This forum is the only one where I have wished for a kill filter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Fascinating.

Anyway, the download load and peak problem could possibly be solved by some of the emergent technologies such as Torrent. As for piracy, in games like dominions, I would go for a CD-key like the one already in use, or maybe a bit more advanced. This is from a techies point of view. I'm image that Torrent is probably not so easy in the windowsworld.

Graeme Dice

October 2nd, 2004, 04:21 PM

Arryn said:
Perhaps. I'd waste even less time if I ignored you. Consider yourself welcome to go back into the woodwork you crawled out of. Bye.

What the hell is your problem this time Arryn?

Gandalf Parker

October 2nd, 2004, 04:39 PM

Esben Mose Hansen said:
Anyway, the download load and peak problem could possibly be solved by some of the emergent technologies such as Torrent.

Possibly quite true although "emergent" is a key word. The pros and cons of it are still being examined. It comes down to a tried and true high chance of steady checks vs a gamble into new territory for the chance of a higher return. If I were marketing my own game my recommends might be different than if I were trying to suggest how a company should represent their clients.

As for piracy, in games like dominions, I would go for a CD-key like the one already in use, or maybe a bit more advanced. This is from a techies point of view. I'm image that Torrent is probably not so easy in the windowsworld.

Also a good bet. The game is available from many sources while the key is purchased thru a company site. Basically its the "shareware" plan which has had many years to create its own extensive history base on its effectiveness.

There are others things being tried. Kiosks which burn a CD, a man behind the counter verifies ID and credit card info, then operates the dedicate software to purchase the key. With specialized software talking to each other at each end it cuts out alot of problems and puts purchasing back into stores without the "buy bulk inventory and get stuck with it" headache. The music and movie industries are examining it also. It has things going for it but is also new territory.

Gandalf Parker

October 2nd, 2004, 04:44 PM

Gandalf Parker said:
[quote]
Esben Mose Hansen said:
Anyway, the download load and peak problem could possibly be solved by some of the emergent technologies such as Torrent.

Possibly quite true although "emergent" is a key word. The pros and cons of it are still being examined. It comes down to a tried and true high chance of steady checks vs a gamble into new territory for the chance of a higher return. If I were marketing my own game my recommends might be different than if I were trying to suggest how a company should represent their clients.

Im not sure if Torrent really offers any better distrib than if you just popped ISOs into the newsservers.

As for piracy, in games like dominions, I would go for a CD-key like the one already in use, or maybe a bit more advanced. This is from a techies point of view. I'm image that Torrent is probably not so easy in the windowsworld.

Also a good bet. The game is available from many sources while the key is purchased thru a company site. Basically its the "shareware" plan which has had many years to create its own extensive history base on its effectiveness.

There are others things being tried. Kiosks which burn a CD, a man behind the counter verifies ID and credit card info, then operates the dedicate software to purchase the key. With specialized software talking to each other at each end it cuts out alot of problems and puts purchasing back into stores without the "buy bulk inventory and get stuck with it" headache. The music and movie industries are examining it also. It has things going for it but is even newer territory.

What would make Digital Download really come to bloom would be for a company with national spread of servers create a new service handling the download portion.

alexti

October 2nd, 2004, 04:48 PM

Arryn said:

alexti said:
If it was done for vanity or for publicity, that it worked.

If Brad's intention in selling retail was solely advertising, that's still a valid reason. Making a profit from doing so would be a bonus in that case. However, I sincerely doubt he'd go through the effort of getting hitched with Ubisoft if he didn't intend to seek a profit from retail. Seems to me that the possible "reward" from using that as an ad technique wouldn't outweigh the effort involved. I'd think he'd get a better bang for the buck advertising in other ways. Which leaves the profit motive, since Brad doesn't strike me as the vain type.

So, we're coming to the conclusion that it didn't work for Stardock. Though "advertisement" effects and increase in "brand name recognition" are somewhat hard to estimate. And the way their Online purchases and patch downloads were organized, it was hard not to notice their other products, so I suppose that was part of the plan.

Arryn said:
alexti said:
Brad was mentioning that he was prepared to take loss on GalCiv for Windows from the very beginning.

Has he said, anywhere, that he has actually lost money on GalCiv sales? Or that GalCiv's Online sales aren't profitable?

I haven't seen any statement from him on that. Surely, Online sales are profitable. But whether they have made enough to offset development costs, I don't know. But I remember him saying that if not for Online sales, GalCiv would be a total financial failure. Which just probable says that they've got very little from the retail deal.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 04:59 PM

Esben Mose Hansen said:
This forum is the only one where I have wished for a kill filter

It actually has one. And it works well enough.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 05:09 PM

Graeme Dice said:
What the hell is your problem this time Arryn?

I'd ask you the same question, except I already know the answer. Please feel free to join Truper. The two of you are quite the matched pair, lurking like sharks in the depths always on the hunt for a tidbit (which would be me, in case this allegory eludes you) that they can chomp on. I only wait for the inevitable day when you'll choke on it, or some other shark will decide to feed on you and see how well you enjoy being on the receiving end.

Bye.

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 05:44 PM

One question on protection :
I have little knowlegde here but maybe somebody has :
I myself bought Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 . Blizzard checked their CD-keys when you played Online .
I know there existed a lot of SP-key generators for Diablo 2 as well but was there one for MP too ?
Or did this system work quite well so that if you intended to play Diablo 2 in MP you were forced to buy a CD ?
Cause this is the only protection that works i can think of but i have to little knowledge to know if it works at all or if there is nothing you can do against Piracy in various forms .

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 05:50 PM

Boron said:
Or did this system work quite well so that if you intended to play Diablo 2 in MP you were forced to buy a CD ?

The Bnet servers validate the keys for MP play, not the client-side software. So pirate keygens and codes are only useful for SP. But that's not all. D2 has a very effective CD copy-protection scheme as well. Blizzard went to great lengths to layer their anti-piracy defenses.

Graeme Dice

October 2nd, 2004, 05:57 PM

Arryn said:
I only wait for the inevitable day when you'll choke on it, or some other shark will decide to feed on you and see how well you enjoy being on the receiving end.

Please don't bother trying to scare me with such tales, I've been around Star Trek vs. Star Wars debates on usenet far too long for such tactics to bother me.

quantum_mechani

October 2nd, 2004, 06:33 PM

My most successful thread... I wonder why I'm not proud...

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 06:36 PM

Arryn said:

Boron said:
Or did this system work quite well so that if you intended to play Diablo 2 in MP you were forced to buy a CD ?

The Bnet servers validate the keys for MP play, not the client-side software. So pirate keygens and codes are only useful for SP. But that's not all. D2 has a very effective CD copy-protection scheme as well. Blizzard went to great lengths to layer their anti-piracy defenses.

So do you think it worked well then ?
I thought so i just ask because i remember that Blizzard thought that closed B-net is save in general but after some time the weirdest hacks occured and ruined the game when there were suddenly weapons which did 2000 or more damage etc. .

And could Illwinter/Shrapnel then do something similiar that at least the people who want to play MP have to buy Dominions 3 ? I think this would result in at least slightly higher sales too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Alneyan

October 2nd, 2004, 06:55 PM

As it happens, Dominions already has a specific protection for MP play, since the 2.08 patch; I do not know the specifics however.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 07:21 PM

Boron said:
And could Illwinter/Shrapnel then do something similiar that at least the people who want to play MP have to buy Dominions 3 ? I think this would result in at least slightly higher sales too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Shrapnel isn't remotely close to large enough to be able to afford to create the server farms needed for even a small-scale Version of that sort of thing. If they cannot afford to invest the resources to provide electronic downloads, nor are willing to take the risk, what makes you think they could do centralized server gaming (which is costlier and riskier)?

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 07:26 PM

quantum_mechani said:
My most successful thread... I wonder why I'm not proud...

You had really good intentions. It's hardly your fault that the thread got hijacked into a discussion of what they could do rather than what they have already done. OTOH, it seems inevitable, given that thoughts of the past often spur people to ponder the future. And thus one topic leads to another. Heh. Looked at that way, you should have known better. It's all your fault! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Annette

October 2nd, 2004, 08:08 PM

Arryn said:

Boron said:
And could Illwinter/Shrapnel then do something similiar that at least the people who want to play MP have to buy Dominions 3 ? I think this would result in at least slightly higher sales too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Shrapnel isn't remotely close to large enough to be able to afford to create the server farms needed for even a small-scale Version of that sort of thing. If they cannot afford to invest the resources to provide electronic downloads, nor are willing to take the risk, what makes you think they could do centralized server gaming (which is costlier and riskier)?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gifI'll restate what's already been said. We do offer some of our games via download. The reason a select few of our titles are available by download is not because we "cannot afford to invest the resources." I think our stance on this has been addressed in earlier Posts. Are we willing to "take the risk"? What's risks are you referring to? The risk of a high rate of customer dissatisfaction?

Gandalf Parker

October 2nd, 2004, 08:12 PM

Boron said:
One question on protection :

Cause this is the only protection that works i can think of but i have to little knowledge to know if it works at all or if there is nothing you can do against Piracy in various forms .

It will help if you keep in mind that there is "copy protection" against legal owners making casual copies for their buddies, and there is "crack protection" against pirates. Dominions does have a level of crack protection involved with the serial key which fights pirated copies. But they do not try to stop you from putting the game anywhere you want or making backup copies.

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 08:35 PM

Annette said:
What's risks are you referring to? The risk of a high rate of customer dissatisfaction?

Fine, I'll rise to the bait by responding with "what dissatisfaction?" You mean the "dissatisfaction" of all the Dom 2 players who download the demo (which someone pointed out is about the same size as the regular Version of the game), fall in love with it, and then buy the game? The "dissatisfaction" of all the Dom 2 players who have to resort to masses of player-written documentation because of all the critical info needed to be able to successfully play the game in MP that is not present in the manual, said maunal being a key reason which Richard (and others) cite as to why a fully-working Version of Dom 2 isn't made available for download? The "dissatisfaction" in having to download a large file, when the demo is of comparable size? The "dissatisfaction" in having too many people queued up waiting to download patches, when I've yet to see anyone complain about such a thing?

So I ask you, what "dissatisfaction" are you referring to? So far, the only "dissatisfaction" I've seen mentioned on this forum is from people wishing for, what to them is, a more convenient and speedy way to get the game they want.

Yes, Annette, I'm well aware of Shrapnel's stance. Excuse me if I don't happen to agree with it, nor the justifications that have been used in support of it. You're entitled to your position. And, while I honestly like Shrapnel and its contribution to the gaming industry, please don't expect all of your customers to meekly accept everything that officials of Shrapnel say as Indisputable Truth merely because you (that's a general 'you', not you personally) say it. I gave up blind obedience and unquestioning belief well over three decades ago when I broke with Catholic church doctrine, and over two decades ago when I left the Republican party. Even in the military one is permitted (to a point), and even encouraged (to a degree), to question what one is told.

Boron

October 2nd, 2004, 09:04 PM

Gandalf Parker said:

Boron said:
One question on protection :

Cause this is the only protection that works i can think of but i have to little knowledge to know if it works at all or if there is nothing you can do against Piracy in various forms .

It will help if you keep in mind that there is "copy protection" against legal owners making casual copies for their buddies, and there is "crack protection" against pirates. Dominions does have a level of crack protection involved with the serial key which fights pirated copies. But they do not try to stop you from putting the game anywhere you want or making backup copies.

Is the key somehow checked ?
Cause there are key generators for almost everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .
For Diablo 2 e.g. though thnx to the CD-key check each time you played in battle.net at least if you wanted to play MP you were almost forced to buy a copy afaik .

If anyway possible i would wish a small official server for Dominions 3 anyway and if Illwinter would then check the cd-keys would hopefully result in a bit more sales .

Arryn

October 2nd, 2004, 09:08 PM

Boron said:
Is the key somehow checked ?

Yes. I said that in my Last reply to you.

Boron said:
If anyway possible i would wish a small official server for Dominions 3 anyway and if Illwinter would then check the cd-keys would hopefully result in a bit more sales .

What makes you think that it might increase sales? What makes such a system better than what you can now do with Dom 2?

Tim Brooks

October 3rd, 2004, 06:31 AM

I hesitate to post here, as my Posts usually end discussions for some reason, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif but here goes...

please don't expect all of your customers to meekly accept everything that officials of Shrapnel say as Indisputable Truth merely because you (that's a general 'you', not you personally) say it.

Well, since Arryn thinks we (that's a personal 'we', not a general 'we') are lying to all of you I will answer her arguments for the others here that want more information as to our philosophy regarding downloads and who might entertain that we know a little about this business.

1. We have offered downloads in the past and still do, although our download games are also offered as physical product now. The games we offered as purely downloads are the worse selling games we have ever had. Why is that? We believe there are two main reasons. One, the fact that a whole lot of people don't like downloads (see 2 below) and two, the ease of piracy as the manual is in electronic format.

2. The games that are offered as either download or physical product are sold as physical product 4 to 1 over downloads. Why is that? Our guess is most people want physical product. When they spend money, they want something they can hold in their hands.

3. Downloads as a percentage of those games unit sales create over 10 times the customer service requests as do physical products. Add to that the increase in behind the scenes man hours of maintaing the servers for downloads and you have a big expense in downloadable products. This is not a bigger expense than offering physical product, which is quite expensive also, but on a par. So if we aren't saving money and we get more sales with physical products, why do downloads? Due to these facts, in June, I (that's a personal 'I', not a general 'I') made the decision that we would offer no new downloadable games. Expansions, however, may still be offered as downloads, we haven't decided yet on the avenue to take with them.

Shrapnel isn't remotely close to large enough to be able to afford to create the server farms needed for even a small-scale Version of that sort of thing. If they cannot afford to invest the resources to provide electronic downloads, nor are willing to take the risk, what makes you think they could do centralized server gaming (which is costlier and riskier)?

We are working on the finishing touches on our first MMP offering with our own dedicated servers (look for an announcement later this month) so we are probably a wee bit larger than Arryn thinks.

Oh and Arryn, if you are still reading this, please stop the flaming that is going on in this thread. Or I will stop it. And that is a personal 'I'.

There are some good discussions here folks. Please don't let my post end them.

Regards,

Tim Brooks
President
Shrapnel Games, Inc.

Truper

October 3rd, 2004, 01:25 PM

Tim: If you're going to be putting up the infrastructure for a MMP, I wonder if it would be too much to ask that Shrapnel run a dedicated Dom2 server. The community currently has access to the server run by St. Esben, but the demand for server time is greater than the supply. I've no clue whether you could justify the expense, but I thought I'd ask anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Gandalf Parker

October 3rd, 2004, 02:08 PM

Truper said:
Tim: If you're going to be putting up the infrastructure for a MMP, I wonder if it would be too much to ask that Shrapnel run a dedicated Dom2 server. The community currently has access to the server run by St. Esben, but the demand for server time is greater than the supply. I've no clue whether you could justify the expense, but I thought I'd ask anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Shrapnel has a number of games which could use a good PbEM game site. Dominions 2 and Space Empires IV are probably the 2 biggest crowds (both excellent games and for many of the same reasons if you want to check them out).

Thats why Ive been pushing for some of us to come together and create a generic web structure that can easily support adding different games.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=296360&page=0&view=co llapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1
Ive searched and searched, and Im very surprised that there doesnt seem to be one. The closest I could come up with as a ready-made package was one of the BBS packages which would amount to basically being a web-forum allowing uploads.

I would like to see one written as SysAdmin-upward (making best use of having the whole machine to itself), rather than WebMaster-downward (which is best for a package you might add to a machine as a user). I have a dedicated server I can use for it.

Murph

October 3rd, 2004, 05:44 PM

This has been an interesting thread for me (other than the flame war, which is actually the first really serious-seeming one that I've seen on a Shrapnel forum - usually people here are remarkably polite and reasonable - probably why I keep coming back).

I'm particularly interested because I've experienced all three of the distribution methods being discussed here, and I'm curious as to why some some methods seem to be prefered by people.

I've bought most games in retail stores, in fact, I bought GalCiv that way - which I did not like a fraction as much as I liked SE IV, truth be known. And I didn't see much different about GalCiv than your general retail game. Needed to be patched, and generally paid a lot of money for something i ended up not being crazy about - par for the course.

I bought Dom2 through Shrapnel's website, after I got the demo in PC Gamer. Played the demo until I loved it so much I had to buy the game, then bought the game Online - my first Online purchase - and now comes the kicker - waited 2 weeks to get the game, because I live in a small town in Canada and they apparently carried my copy to me ON FOOT!

But that wait did give me a chance to play the demo through, oh, 40 times or so. So basically I experienced all the drawbacks of the on-line system; I was reluctant to order something on-line, had to wait a long time for my product and even had to use customer service for my out-of-US credit card.

And guess what, they were great! Shrapnel was very responsive and helped me out - which is big for me, as I'm a customer service manager - and I was fully happy when I finally got my order.

And I ordered SE IV not too long after- no fear or worries this time, and it only took a week. No problem after the Last time. All the problems i had didn't turn me off one bit from ordering Online - why? Because the product was great - the service was great and the support was great.

Now, I've also gotten software Online via DD, and haven't been much impressed - albeit that it was mostly apps. Long download times (even now that i'm on ADSL) for the complex stuff, and exactly the same reluctance to provide credit card info Online. So how is direct download better? If you want this game - or any other Shrapnel Game - you'll buy it, hells with how you have to do it.

I thought the real problem with Shrapnel was not their distribution - which keeps their costs down and lets them pay devs more, but their marketing. Lets face it, for a lot of people, they go and browse the game store and see if anything looks cool, and that's how they find out about stuff, or they hear about it on game review sites or in magazines. I'm a serious strategy game player and I'd never heard of Shrapnel until I saw the demo in PCG (I think it was PCG anyways, quite a while ago).

I don't think Shrapnel needs to put games on shelves in stores, or allow you to download their games directly, although both I'm sure open up their own portion of market share - they need to make more great games and get the word out there through marketing that they exist - Field of Dreams was wrong - you have to build it AND tell them about it, before they come... How you get them to it will work itself out, because people will come to quality.

We all did.

Well, that's my rant. And let me do what this thread was intended to do in the first place - say "Thanks Illwinter, thanks Shrapnel - thanks to all the forum junkies. I spend more time than is healthy here, and I don't feel bad about it at all."

quantum_mechani

October 4th, 2004, 02:23 AM

Murph said:
"Thanks Illwinter, thanks Shrapnel - thanks to all the forum junkies.

Wow, back on topic after 6 pages- I can't belive it!

Cainehill

October 4th, 2004, 02:39 AM

It's almost all on topic. Some of it is merely ... palatable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And say,QM! When is the next Twilight due, since you say your email of working? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Tim Brooks

October 4th, 2004, 04:57 AM

Tim: If you're going to be putting up the infrastructure for a MMP, I wonder if it would be too much to ask that Shrapnel run a dedicated Dom2 server.

We are looking at this. It is something we have wanted to do for a while now and have it on our list. But doing it right takes time.

Tim Brooks

October 4th, 2004, 05:08 AM

Murph:

I thought the real problem with Shrapnel was not their distribution - which keeps their costs down and lets them pay devs more, but their marketing.

We actually do alot of marketing - the PC Gamer Demo was how you heard about us right? The problem is we are dealing in niche markets, and there is no good way to reach the niches. You either have to pay alot of money through magazine ads to reach a small percentage of potential customers, or rely on reviews to do this for you. PCG or CGW wants close to $20,000 for a full page ad, and we reach mainly people that aren't even interested in our type of products. It just doesn't make sense to do this.

The hardest thing we do is try to find avenues to reach our niche customer base that is cost effective. The best ways we have found to do this is through paid search engine listings. Truth be told, the fans themselves (word of mouth) equates to more sales than anything we do marketing wise.

PDF

October 4th, 2004, 07:24 AM

This thread became interesting again... Thanks Shrapnel ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I'm an advocate of downloadable products, but that may be because
1/ I'm not in the US so have difficulty finding some of *my niche* games
2/ I've a good DSL bw and I'm savvy enough with tech things to manage that without too much problems
3/ I don't fear buying Online (much less than carrying banknotes in my wallet in fact http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif )
4/ I'm not convinced that piracy would make a sensible hit to games like Shrapnel's ones - the guys pirating that woul anyway never have bought the game whatsoever, at 99%...

But I agree that the tech infrastructure isn't quite ready, and requires too much investment for a company like Shrapnel when compared to possible profit.
Some people (Stardock-type) will have offer other companies secure and efficient d/l platforms to make this profitable to small publishers- and big ones will surely be scared to death by piracy issue for some years more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif !

BTW Tim if you want a full page in PC4War, the French mag which has proudly edited more than 20 pages on Dom2 in 3 issues http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, sure it's less than 20K $ !!

Alneyan

October 4th, 2004, 09:25 AM

I must concur with PDF about the usefulness of downloadable products, though Shrapnel games can actually be bought outside the US without having to put a mortgage on your house (the format of the games do help to cut down on shipping rates, and some countries have their own stores to avoid annoying things such as duty taxes and the like).

On the other hand, I recall one independent adventure game sold for 30 euros (pretty cheap), and where the shipping cost was also of 30 euros, plus various banking fees and the usual duty taxes. Am I the only one who finds this to be a tad bit expensive? Oops, it looks like I am starting a rant about my main pet peevee.

Chazar

October 4th, 2004, 11:06 AM

About the book as a copy protection and why I bought Dom2:

I am severely annoyed by the incompleteness of the Dom2-Manual and I am craving for a merge with Liga's excellent manual addenda (BTW: Thanks to Liga!)- but there wont be any, since on the one hand the manual is not available electronically and on the other hand selling a cheap revised manual would disable its copy-protecting function. This is very sad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Any solution here?

Maybe Shrapnel could sell cheap revised paper manuals to owners sending in their CD-Key as legitimisation, but the bureaucratic overhead would make that probably more expensive than the game itself. Printed manuals are also bad since they tend not to keep up with the patches as well.

Conclusion: I like printed manuals and I think I have bought games just because of printed manuals before, but this would have not been the case with Dom2 if I had learned about the game from a friend who would have had the manual: I hardly use the Dom2 manual, but I definitely rely on Zen's freely available MagicItem/SummonMonster documents above anything else, since they give an digestible overview over all the possibilites - especially to know these facts in advance before researching/empowering and exploring manually! Without those, I couldnt play! BTW: Thanks to Zen!!!

--------------

So to give a complete feedback about a humble customers perception of why I bought Dom2, here is my view. I bought Dom2 because:
Its a pretty good game. (BTW: Thanks to Illwinter!!!)
I think it is a must to support smaller enterprises. My father once had a small scale craftsman's enterprise before retirement. Hence I still avoid big super-stores in favour of small shops on almost any kind of good. I also buy Audio CDs from non-mainstream bands much faster.
Word of mouth. Someone recommended it in the Warlords4 forum. Aftewards I spread the game among all my friends vigorously. I also saw a good review in a major german IT-magazine, but that was already too late - I had already purchased the game.
The demo. Paying for something I cannot test has given me bad surprises (eg. Warlords4 - as mentioned by someone else above I thought "4 is good (or at least as good as 3)". It wasnt, but that in turn made we aware of Dom2!). So either a demo or a 'friend's copy' are a must for me to buy a game now. However, I also gave away my CDKey to a few trusted friends in order to get them hooked on the game and/or to set up a server which I cannot. Some of them bought Dom2 now, some dont play at all. Somehow people always prefer the 'real thing', although I do not understand it myself since the liberal Dom2-Demo allows quite extensive testing (but does not solve the problem of letting a non-player setting up a server http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ).
CD-Key-check introduced with the patch helped me to convince some friends to buy their own copy in the end. Sad but true. The downside here is that only few fellows thus delayed others buying it - either all buy it together or no one at all. Still the CD-Key-check is a perfectly acceptable thing for me, as it doesnt prohibit me to play at home on my desktop and while travelling on my latop. This is important! And I dont even need to remember to carry the CD with me. Well-done in my opinion!

The way of distribution is not a factor for me:
Either I want to buy it or I dont. Once I've made this decision, I take a look at that aspect of distribution. Usually I like to go to the game shop next door to order a specific game. I dont play that many games, so I do not browse for games in shops. For Dom2, I needed to order it from a german web-seller recommended here in this forum a while ago. This was unconvenient because of the german law which requires complex age-verification, but it wouldnt have changed my mind. A download is nice, but I dont like it for the fear of conncetion-breakdown. In the end, the german web-seller was even cheaper than buying directly from Shrapnel (taking post&packing, PayPal US/EUR conVersion and Shrapnels irregular appearing 10% discount offers into account).

Gandalf Parker

October 4th, 2004, 12:02 PM

Murph said:
I don't think Shrapnel needs to put games on shelves in stores, or allow you to download their games directly, although both I'm sure open up their own portion of market share - they need to make more great games and get the word out there through marketing that they exist - Field of Dreams was wrong - you have to build it AND tell them about it, before they come... How you get them to it will work itself out, because people will come to quality.

There is a difference between marketing and publicity. Both are things that the publisher handles. Publicity requires time and effort, while Marketing requires money (ads, visits). If you remember, companies like Intel had full page ads for every one of their titles in every game magazine and they went bankrupt. An extreme example I know but it points out the diffrence. Marketing is like chain-store retail. It serves to increase brand-name and logo recognition, but it creates a larger gap before there are profit checks in the mail. Its all gambling.

I think Shrapnel does the publicity very well. I dont think there is a game magazine or major game site or forum or games newsgroup that you cant do a search for Dominions on. And the info is correct (you would be amazed at how many emails it takes to correct little things). If you see any gaps, let us know.

Im outside my element (I should stick to talking about servers) but I think marketing would be more than a decision of the publisher. Since it involves money-investment it would be more of a discussion between publisher and developer. Just a guess

Arryn

October 4th, 2004, 03:34 PM

Gandalf Parker said:
If you remember, companies like Intel had full page ads for every one of their titles in every game magazine and they went bankrupt.

As a shareholder of Intel, I'd say that the world's biggest chipmaker being bankrupt might be news to a lot of folks. Did you, perchance, mean "Interplay"?

Gandalf Parker

October 4th, 2004, 10:11 PM

Arryn said:

Gandalf Parker said:
If you remember, companies like Intel had full page ads for every one of their titles in every game magazine and they went bankrupt.

As a shareholder of Intel, I'd say that the world's biggest chipmaker being bankrupt might be news to a lot of folks. Did you, perchance, mean "Interplay"?

Yes sorry. I meant InterPlay

Saxon

October 5th, 2004, 07:56 AM

Niche markets have their problems, but throw in a niche customer and you have a problem. I live in Kenya and like the turn based strategy game niche and find it hard to buy any game software, never mind within our little niche! Recognizing that I am an unusual and rather small market, I will still throw out my two bits.

Game software is pretty much not available here, with the occasional pirated CD coming in from the Far East. If I want legitimate games, I can do one of three things. One, download. Two, mail order. Three, fly to Europe or North America and buy retail.

This year I took my vacation in Zimbabwe, so I did not get to do my yearly pilgrimage to a games store and I am hurting for new games. I have used mail order before, Dom II and SEIV amongst others, but things also go missing in the mail at a fairly high frequency. As such, I have been exploring downloading games. From my somewhat arbitrary survey, based upon my tastes, I have found that this is an area which is not terribly well developed on a commercial basis and problems arise fairly often. Good, secures systems may exist, we handle our payroll Online after all, but they are not common. I find downloading to be about as problematic as my regular losses to the Kenyan Postal Service.

As such, I find myself booking a trip in November and planning to get my games that way. Well, actually, Mom put her foot down about not seeing me in over a year, but I will take the opportunity pick up games along the way. What my point is that in locations where the mail service is decent (most of the rest of the world), it would beat my experiences with downloading. I would argue, as a customer, that while downloading is seductive, until the systems improve, mail order is better.

PS Any good games stores in Phoenix? I am stopping there on the way to Mom and Dad in Canada.

deccan

October 5th, 2004, 08:36 AM

Saxon said:
As such, I have been exploring downloading games. From my somewhat arbitrary survey, based upon my tastes, I have found that this is an area which is not terribly well developed on a commercial basis and problems arise fairly often. Good, secures systems may exist, we handle our payroll Online after all, but they are not common. I find downloading to be about as problematic as my regular losses to the Kenyan Postal Service.

I worked in Gabon for about two years and I've been working for four years in the Solomon Islands. One of the problems with downloading games (or any other kind of digital content) is the often poor quality and unreliability of internet connections in these countries.

Saxon

October 8th, 2004, 07:33 AM

deccan,

We have direct satellite link (VSAT), so our connection is pretty stable. At least since the admin guys got the genarator fixed...

The government here recently broke up the government monopoly on internet and we are starting to see some really positive changes. Privatization is good. Free trade is good. Those of you who do not believe it should come visit and see where trade protectionism costs lives, not jobs. Sermon finished.

I hope things pick up for your link, it is frustrating to have such a poor connection.

deccan

October 8th, 2004, 08:17 AM

Saxon said:
Privatization is good. Free trade is good. Those of you who do not believe it should come visit and see where trade protectionism costs lives, not jobs.

Aye to that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Murph

October 9th, 2004, 10:48 AM

Well, that worked better than I thought it would. Back on track and everything, which is good, because this is an interesting thread.

As to publicity and marketing, I know exactly the difficulties being described with niche markets. I'm helping a friend develop a board game for Columbia Games based on the Peloponnesian War (Pre-Roman Athens vs Sparta - but I'm sure most everyone on this forum does NOT need me to tell them that). Board wargaming is as niche as niche markets get, so the way we're doing it is developing the game, setting up options for pre-sales and printing and shipping dependant upon the amount of interest as shown by pre-sales numbers.

Of course, we both have other jobs... But the niche problem is the same. Actually, sometimes the thing to do is really burrow into your specific niche - for example, this game is going to be: 3 hours long, 2-player, at least 2 scenarios, using the core block rules - everything else is up in the air, but with boardgames, you almost have to pick a niche and go with it.

It's not exactly the same with computer games of course, there are notable cross-genre (and what's a genre but a pretty big niche, really) successes - sweet Rome: Total War, my copies in the mail.. But by-en-large, cross-genre is more of a risk than simply doing something within established fields. Hence all the Diablo, or Warcraft or FPS clones out there.

So yes, how do you do niche marketing? Word of mouth is best, really, although making your product available in demo form is a good way to get people (like me) interested. I absolutely agree that a full-page ad in PCG is not the way to go for Dom2, but similarly, neither is investing all the money in server architecture and software development so that a few people can buy and download the game Online. I mean, the point of any business is to figure out the way that works best for you - that is effective both in terms of cost and time and customer happiness. If Shrapnel feels that they found there solid ground on this, wicked, because it means that we can get the benefits of great developers work, AND that they can get the benefits of our cash money.

Oh, and Saxon and deccan, I've been to south america where free trade and privatization, enforced by the World Bank and the WTO have allowed multi-national corporations to gain control of water supplies and other essentials of life. I'm all for limited free trade and privatization, but I have grave concerns about "free" trade that the WTO enforces, which does not allow countries to stop selling products or resources once they start.

I live in an area with vast water and energy resources, and as the water and envery shortages get worse in the next 20 years, I fully expect to see armed US soldiers on the dams and rivers that flow past my door, and free trade will justify their being there. But that's a whole other can of worms.

deccan

October 9th, 2004, 09:32 PM

Murph said:
I'm all for limited free trade and privatization, but I have grave concerns about "free" trade that the WTO enforces, which does not allow countries to stop selling products or resources once they start.

I'm not sure what that means. How can countries be forced to sell things they no longer want to sell?

Murph said:
I live in an area with vast water and energy resources, and as the water and envery shortages get worse in the next 20 years, I fully expect to see armed US soldiers on the dams and rivers that flow past my door, and free trade will justify their being there. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Water and energy resources issues are normally subject to specific (and sometimes very old) treaties that fix prices and supplied quantities between countries, hence creating huge distortions, and not directly through free trade (i.e. varying prices and quantities traded according to supply and demand).

But this is really a whole other can of worms.

Start an OT post on this subject and I'll happily jump in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

atul

October 10th, 2004, 06:03 AM

deccan said:

Murph said:
I'm all for limited free trade and privatization, but I have grave concerns about "free" trade that the WTO enforces, which does not allow countries to stop selling products or resources once they start.

I'm not sure what that means. How can countries be forced to sell things they no longer want to sell?

Perhaps because they're obliged to do so by treaties they've had to sign in exchange of loans and such?

The book's obviously biased, but nevertheless I found Michel Chossudovsky's book "Globalization of Poverty" a good read. If nothing else, at least it gives several case studies on subject of How Can I Totally Mess Up Weaker Economies. Such education is always good for aspiring rulers of the world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Murph

October 10th, 2004, 10:49 AM

I'm not sure I want to get into a full-on OT thread on the subject of neoliberal trade policies, but basically with GATT (general agreement on trade and tariffs) and the WTO, if country A starts selling, say, water to country B, and then is running short on water and wants to stop, GATT obliges Country A to pay Country B for basically "lost profits", which means that if Country A can afford whatever Billion (depends on the size of the treaty, but we're talking fat, fat cash in any case) then they can stop, unless of course the WTO rules that what Country A is doing is an "unfair barrier to trade", and then they can FORCE Country A to keep selling water - even if they are experienceing drought or something. And in the Last decade, %80 of rulings on matters in this regard have gone towards Country B. Sweet, sweet water.

So anyway, it's pretty easy to mess w/less wealthy and powerful countries in the present world trade market. I think I'll glance over the Globalization of Poverty, and if anyone wants a different (and admittedly biased, but at least they admit it) view of the benefits of globalization, check out the New Internationalist Magazine.

Saxon

October 12th, 2004, 03:40 AM

As always, these forums get off topic, but that is the reason they are so much fun! If some one does want to open an OT thread on this, please let us know, it would be interesting.

The free trade/liberalization debate has strong proponents on both sides and the earlier stated sources represent one half. If anyone really wants to give this a fair treatment, have a read of what has been listed before, but also have a look at some of Milton Friedman&#8217;s work, especially Freedom to Choose. A depressing, but enlightening book is Fishing in Africa, which will give a first hand account of how people die when governments start meddling with economics.

As a final point, I would like to posit, with no offense intended to Murph, that living and working in a country gives a very different view of the country than touring it. After eight years in Kenya, I see it rather differently than when I first arrived, with a greater understanding. Let me give an example linked to this discussion. And yes, this is a soapbox of mine, but living in a society with so many visibly poor around me, I have grown sensitive to the issues.

When I got here, I needed to buy a car. The tariff on imported minivans was something like 70 or 80%, I forget the exact figure, but I know that it was 100% tax on a new car. That is right, if you bought a new car, you paid 100% tax. I bought a used car, as I could not afford a new one. This tax was intended to protect the local manufacturing sector, but forced me, and all Kenyans in the market, to buy low quality goods. It also drove the product out of the reach of most people.

Later, I read about the job losses caused when some local minivan production plants were closed. This was because Kenya had removed the trade tariffs on imported minivans, making the Kenyan factories uncompetitive. Several thousand jobs were lost and I saw this as the IMF being evil and hurting Kenyans. They also cut the car tax way down, I think to around 20/30%, which made newer cars more attractive. This caused my old second hand car to lose even more value, so this free market move cost me some cash. In the short term, I was pretty grumpy and convinced the IMF was evil.

What happened next? Well, for me, my next car purchase was great. I got a much newer car for the same price. So did every other Kenyan in the market. Instead of being forced to buy old clunkers, we could now buy decent cars. And, some people could now buy the clunkers, access to the market had become easier. This really showed up in the minivan industry.

Kenyans rarely take buses, they mostly take minivans, which are run as small businesses. Before the tariff cuts, locally assembled ones were used and there were not that many around. However, when the tariffs cut, people could afford to enter the market. Suddenly, we were flooded with cheap minivans. We had more choices of public transit, waits were shorter, new routes opened, more people had jobs running them and costs stayed the same. For eight years, the price of public transit stayed the same, while inflation drove everything else up. My grocery bill has doubled, but the cost of taking public transit to work is exactly the same.

Now, seven or eight years ago, several thousand people lost their jobs because a tariff was removed. In the intervening years, millions of Kenyans have benefited from an improved transportation network, cheaper cars, new jobs in transportation and dropping costs, adjusted by inflation. I have not mentioned the rise of a huge taxi industry, backed by privatized mobile phones, but which would not be possible without cheaper cars, nor have I mentioned the benefits to farmers who can now get their goods to market, as the spin offs are so numerous.

In short, the liberalization of trade that looked and felt like a bad thing, has actually been a very good thing. This pattern has been repeated many times around the world, short term pain for long term gain.

Cainehill

October 12th, 2004, 11:25 AM

That's fine WRT to some things - cars are a perfect example. But too many countries have "privatized" their water supplies, for instance, sometimes at the insistence of the IMF. The outside company comes in, and unfortunately, has stockholders, etc, and the company's only responsibility is to make the largest profit possible. Increasing efficiency doesn't get the largest profits, instead, cutting costs, lowering quality, and keeping prices stable or rising is. So the people wind up drinking bad water in the name of capitalism and the free market.

(I've lived in some countries that were like this, and my SO of 2.5 years is a native of one.)

Some things simply should not be privatized. Water supplies and other things the public health and welfare depend on; this indirectly includes such things as hazardous waste disposal, especially nuclear. (The USA privatized some government sections that handled nuclear waste, including taking Russia's waste and reprocessing it to make it useful for reactors again instead of useful for bombs. Oops - circumstances changed, the private company found it wasn't profitable to continue this, and stopped, leaving more bomb-capable waste sitting unprotected.)