Cohen Mod 0.2

[Cohen]

I want to make this post because I don't want that someone later tells me that I stole ideas from someone else, since there's something equal to Zen Pretender mod.
I've already done some Unit modifies, and Spell modding, but I lacked the time to write down the modifies in the readme file (this is a copy/paste, so formattation here isn't as in the file).
Thanks for PvK and Tapani Antilla for graphic.
Any suggestion will be appreciated, I've tried to justify/explain most of my modifies. The Mod File will be attached as soon as the Readme and some Pretender description will be completed.
Even I'd appreciate a native English speaker that will be so patient to correct my gramms and syntax mistakes in the descriptions since I'm not an English native speaker. Some volounteer(s)?
I'm seeking too testers for my mod. Please PM me or email me at cohen[at]libero[dot]it.
__________________________________________________ _________
Greetings

This is the list of modifies that my MOD applies to default Dominions 2, and an explaination of why I did that.
Somewhere there're balance issues, in other places there're flavour modifies. Sorry for the grammar mistakes,
I'm not a native English speaker. There're written only the final result. All that is not written, is the same as
in Dominion 2 default game.

So on let's start:

---------------------------------------------SCALE MODDING: ----------------------------------------------------
Growth Scale: +/- 3% Gold.
+/- 0.4% Population.
Production Scale: +/- 20% Resources
+/- 4% Gold.
Fortune Scale: +10% Events.

Why I've done this?
Simply because many players exploited those scales to get "free" design points. And effectively they weren't
worthing to get taken. I hope now they're worthing, or if you want to take them in negative, you've to pay a price for
40 design points for a scale point.

---------------------------------------------ITEM MODDING: -----------------------------------------------------
S stands for Astral, A for Air, F for Fire, and so on.
A number before the letter is the level of the mage now required to forge that item. (ie, 2S means you need a
level 2 Astral Mage).
Multiply for 5 the number in front of the Magic Path to determine the new gem cost (ie an item 2S1F will require
10 Astral Pearls and 5 Fire Gems to get forged).
I add that many items were rarely used, if never. I tried to make them more viable lowering their price.

Wraith Sword: 3D1S. Construction Lvl 6.
Hell Sword: B3F1.
Blood Thorn: 3B*
WHY: Well those are the Drain Life weapons. They've an higher cost, and perhaps the HellSword will have another increase
of cost. They should be more rare, and if this is insufficient, better to raise again the cost. The Blood Thorn
hasn't suffered cost modifies because it's a Blood Path Booster, but the weapon itself has changed stats: now is
-6 Damage, -5 Attack and Defence, so it isn't so good to give it to an SC because it risk to get hit easily, and to
miss more, thus not replenishing his HP and Fatigue.

Clam of Pearls: 3W
Fever Fetish: 2N1F
WHY: Those items are damn strong in the long run. Blood Stones are needed as Earth Enhancer, and
usually blood has more uses of them, and more maluses to get than magic gems.

Wand of Wild Fire: 2F
WHY: Incinerate is better than Fireball, and the Rod of Phoenix is still 20 Fire Gems. Even,
if you've an F2 mage that could cast Fireball of it's own, to forge that Wand, probably you can forge
4 Sceptre that fires Fire Bolts ... a better use for 20 Fire Gems, and there're many others. So, 10 Fire Gems.

Crystal Shield: 2S2E
WHY: Given that it adds Encumberance to spellcasting, and his bonus in in battlefield only, a small
reduction should be fine. It's too not so used.

Lantern Shield: 1D1F
WHY: Due to Corpse Candle spell reduction of fatigue and removed the gem cost of 1, this shield has
been reduced in price.

The Aegis: 5E
WHY: It's damn good. Making it more difficult is correct, considering if you can afford an E5 item,
probably you've a Dwarven Hammer.

Staff of Storms: 4A, Construction 6.
WHY: This is an awesome item, better in Major Artifact. 4A because a Mage needs 4A to cast storm
in battle, so he needs to be 4A to fill the staff with the power of the Storms. (and 20 Gems were too
few for the gain you've from Storm, considering the Storm stays in the battle even if the bringer of the
staff retreats bringing the item into safety).

Wall Shaker: 2A.
WHY: Gate Cleaver is 3E. And gives the twice of Siege Bonus. I'm not so sure of this, since Earth should
be more powerful in sieging.

Manual of Water Breathing: 2N1W
Barrel of Air: 3A
WHY: Making the Underwater less secure before, at least you can go in with troops a little more easily.

Champion Skull: 1D
WHY: 3 pts of Experience aren't so much, considering a human commander die too easily, and an SC can earn
them with ease.

Magic Lamp: 4A4F
WHY: More difficult to forge to obtain the awesome Djinn, but even more difficult to steal the Djinn, giving
more importance to that articaft often forgot due to that weakness.

Winged Shoes: 2A
WHY: Too easy to forge, giving a good advantage in strategic map move.

Stone Idol: 1E1S
Crystal Hearth: 1E1S
Elixir of Life: 1N1F
WHY: Not so used, those items. Stone Idol is often easily detected due to the drop of Dominion, and the
enemy start patrolling. Crystal Hearth and Elixir of Life weren't never used, yes they restore your life
but priving your guy of another item makes him more easy to kill.

Ice Pebble Staff: 2W
WHY: Not so used for a not so great spell.

Copper Plate: 2E1A
WHY: Too easy to get Lightning immunity for 1A. Earth component heavily added because copper is however
a mineral from earth, that should absorb the lightning, Air component kept to assume the mage should give
lightning resistance and shocking grasp in. This could be modified in 2A1E or 1A1E, I'm not sure about
this new price, but I'm sure 1A is too cheap compared to the 1A ring that protects only from lightnings.

--------------------------------------------PRETENDERS: --------------------------------------------------------
Note: I've liked many of Zen changes, but not all of them. Someone are there too, because I find them right,
and probably I've put myself in if he didn't released his mod before me.
WHY: In Default Dom2 many players take Ghost King, unless they can take a Vampire Queen with Caelum or Abysya,
thanks to the heat/cold points, or a nation specific Pretender, like Allfather and Carrion Dragon. My aim is to
bring more pretenders as a viable choice that could lead to victory.
Humans and some Immobiles are granted with more magic or other skills, to supply the fact they cannot take indy
in solo. Some other pretenders have more magic even if they're good ... don't forgot with the Scale change, it's
more "costy" to take negative scales.
There're too new pretenders, I invite you to try them directly. There's one for each of the following:
Abysya, Atlantis, Marignon, Ulm, Ermor and C'Tis.
There're too some new weapons, that however won't make the difference, like a Fiery Staff for Abysyan Great Warlock
(you'll dare to send him in hand to hand?) or Boulders that the Cyclop could throw at enemies (probably he'll cast
spells however).
Things listed here are changes or addenda.
NPC = New Path Cost

RED DRAGON: Prot 23, Prec 12, Def 14. More "weapons".
BLUE DRAGON: Prot 23, Prec 12, Def 14. More "weapons".
GREEN DRAGON: Prot 23, Prec 12, Def 14. More "weapons".
MANTICORE: Prot 15, Att 15, Def 15. More "weapons".
GHOST KING: NPC 40.
CYCLOP: Forge Bonus 25.
GOLDEN NAGA: Cost 80, Enc 3, Mounted, +body slot.
NAGA: Cost 80, Enc 3, Mounted, +body slot, Stealthy.
LORD of the GATES: Cost 65, Death 2.
MOLOCH: Cost 110, Fire 4, Hp 72, NPC 80, Imps Removed.
SCORPION KING: Mounted, +body slot.
SHEDU: Astral 2, Earth 2, Recuperation, Def 18, Enc 1. More "weapons".
GREAT BULLs: NPC 60, enc 1.
LORD OF FERTILITY: Nature 3.
ARCH-LICH: 2 D.Gem prod/turn, Disease Cloud.
DRACOLICH: Prot 12, Prec 13, Recuperation. More "weapons".
VOID LORD: StartDom 5.
SON of the SUN(F): +2 F.Gem prod/turn.
SON of the SUN(S): Cost 75, Astral 1.
ANCIENT KRAKEN: PoisonRes 100, ColdRes 100.
***** QUEEN: Stealth, HP 40, Prec 10.
MOTHER of LIONS: Nature 2, Fear 2, Def 16.
ASYNYA: Glamour, Recuperation, Stealth, NPC 40.
DAUGHTER of the LAND: Water 1, Recuperation, Cost 75.
DIVINE GLYPH: Cost 75, Immortal, Fire 2, Startdom 5.
MEDUSA: HP 30.
DIVINE SERPENT: NPC 30.
MASTER ALCHEMIST: Named "Arcane Blacksmith", Forge Bonus 40, Fire 2 Earth 2, HP 19, Enc 1, Prec 12, Cost 60.
FOUNTAIN of BLOOD: NPC 30, HP 30, Douse Bonus 12.
ORACLE: NPC 30, HP 30, 2 W.Gem & 2S.Pearls prod/turn.
TITAN-FEMALE: Nature 2.
WYRM: Cost 60.
GREAT MOTHER: Earth 2 Nature 2, Recuperation, Cost 80.
MONOLITH: 2 N.Gem prod/turn.
LORD of the WILD: Cost 125.
COLOSSAL HEAD: Nature 2, Blood 2.
PRINCE of DEATH: PoisonRes 100, ColdRes 100, NPC 80, Death 4.
TITAN-MALE: Att 14, Def 13, Prec 13, Cost 110.
LORD of the DESERT SUN: Def 15, Prec 14, StartDom 4, Machaka only.
FATHER of SERPENTS: Prec 14, Def 15.
PHOENIX: Cost 75, Air 2, Fire 2.
JADE EMPEROR: Stardom 4, Prec 13.
FREAK LORD: Nature 2, Astral 2, HP 21, Enc 2.
ARCH MAGE, land: Cost 25, HP 21, Enc 2, Startdom 2, added 2 Misc Slot.
CRONE: Named "Hag", Cost 25, Heal Troop, HP 12, Prec 13.
GREAT SAGE: ResearchBonus 16, HP 18, Enc 1, added 1 Misc Slot.
MASTER DRUID: Cost 50, Nature 3, Recuperation, Enc 1, StarDom 2, SwampSurv, HP 18.
GREAT ENCHANTRESS: Cost 50, HP 16, Enc 1, Ethereal, 2 S.Pearls prod/turn.
MOTHER of TUATHA: Enc 1, Recuperation.
ARCH MAGE, sea: Cost 25, Water 3, HP 21, Enc 2
SMOKING MIRROR: Nature 1, HP 19, Enc 1.
DIVINE EMPEROR: Air 1, Water 1, Enc 1, HP 18, StartDom 3.
ARCH DRUID: Nature 4, Swampsurv, Hp 21, Enc 2.
BAPHOMET: Startdom 5, Fireshield 10.
GREAT SEER of the DEEP: Cost 45, Water 2, Astral 2, HP 18, Enc 1, StarDom 2.
FORST FATHER: Named "Ancient Mariner", Astral 1, Death 1, Sailing, Cost 45, HP 18, Enc 1.
GREAT WARLOCK: Fire 2, Blood 2, StarDom 3, HP 24, Enc 1, Douse 4, changed weapon.
ARCH SERAPH: Cost 50, Air 3, HP 17, Enc 1, StarDom 3.
SERPENT KING: StartDom 4, Att 15, Def 17, HP 25, Enc 1, Stealthy.
VIRTUE: Cost 100, Air 1, Astral 1, Fire 1, Att 16, Def 17, HP 45, Str 16, FireRes 100.
SKRATTI: Named "Elder Skratti", Blood 3, HP 40, Enc 2.
LORD of the NIGHT: Cost 125.
NARID: Mounted.
DAGON: Def 12.

----------------------------------------------SPELLS: ----------------------------------------------------------
General Note and Explaination: Here many spells have been reduced in price of Gems. Perhaps some battlespells
were properly priced before as "spell itself". But if you assume the number of things that should happen before
you have the battle where you wanted to use that spell, AND that the Spellcasting AI make usually a stupid use of
your precious gems, here some battle spells reduced in gem cost. Some spells to supply the fact now the doesn't
cost gems anymore have been raised in path to mantain balance.
Some rituals were depriced too, because they weren't worthing all those gems. Especially the early summons
were usually avoided to keep gems for forging, summoning commanders and mages. An example ... who casted Pride of
Lion, or Spirits of the Wood, when those gems could be worthing a Lamia Queen for example
Then there was the reduction of gem cost of those battle spells that are powerful, but so rarely casted.
Most of the spells now cost around 2-3 gems unless the effect is very good (like Darkness).
Some spells have been raised, like Wrathful Skies, that has been brought to the level (now reduced) of Astral Tempest
and Fire Storm; and False Horror.
Many astral spells have a reduced price because Clam of Pearls now have incresead price.
To know how many gems are used, pick the hundreds number (ie a 200 fatigue spell, costs 2 Gems. A 1550
fatigue spell will cost 15 gems, for example).

Wrathful Skies: Evocation-7, A5, 300 Fatigue
Fire Storm: 300 Fatigue
Astral Tempest: 300 Fatigue
Solar Brilliance: 300 Fatigue
False Horror: A2, 20 Fatigue
Summon Lesser X Elem: 80 Fatigue
Will o' the Wisp: F2, 80 Fatigue
Corpse Candle: D2F1, 80 Fatigue
Summon X Elem: 100 Fatigue
Howl: 100 Fatigue
Summon Sprites: 50 Fatigue
Living X: X5, 100 Fatigue
Soul Vortex: 80 Fatigue
Quickening: W4, 80 Fatigue
Polymorph: N4, 80 Fatigue
Will of the Fates: S5, 200 Fatigue
Army of Gold/Lead: 200 Fatigue
Arcane Domination: 200 Fatigue
Flare: 40 Fatigue
Acid Storm: 300 Fatigue
Heat from Hell: F5, 90 Fatigue
Grip of Winter: W5, 90 Fatigue
Life after Death: 200 Fatigue
Unraveling: 200 Fatigue
Soul Drain: 300 Fatigue
Master Enslave: 400 Fatigue
Undead Mastery: 400 Fatigue
Sabbath Master/Slave: 10 Fatigue
Hell Power: 100 Fatigue
Holy Pyre: 2F2H
Hellfire: 40 Fatigue
Bloodletting: 200 Fatigue
Blood Vengeance: 20 Fatigue
Harm: 20 Fatigue
Leech: B5, 20 Fatigue
Hellbind Heart: B4, 20 Fatigue

Summon Fire Drake: 5 Gems
Ghost Riders: 8 Gems
Bind Scorpion Beast: 4 Gems
Summon Wyvern: 4 Gems
Summon Ice Drake: 5 Gems
Summon Sea Serpent: 5 Gems
Summon Cave Drake: 5 Gems
Summon Animals: 5 Gems
Summon Horned Serp: 7 Gems
Revive Wight: 4 Gems
Revive Bane: 6 Gems
Pride of Lions: 10 Gems
Summon Summer Lions: 20 Gems
Spirits of the Wood: 6 Gems
Summon Fall Bears: 20 Gems
Acashic Record 20 Pearls
Summon Fire Snakes: 4 Gems
Contact Draconians: 20 Gems
Sea King's Court: 30 Gems
Troll King's Court: 30 Gems
Contact Herbinger: 20 Pearls
Ether Gate: 40 Pearls
Locust Swarms: 4 Gems
Angelic Host: 35 Pearls
Earth Attack: 4 Gems
Baleful Star: 3 Pearls
Wish: 150 Pearls
Volcanic Eruption: 8 Gems
Watcher: 3 Gems
Enliven Gargoyle: 4 Gems
Enliven Statues: 10 Gems
Melancholia: 4 Gems
Telestic Animation: 3 Pearls
Astral Travel: 15 Pearls
Bowl of Blood: 1 Slave (there're so few blood magic sites)
Bind Succubus: 33 Slaves
Reascendance: 55 Slaves
Bind Ice Devil: 77 Slaves
Blood Rite: 20 Slaves (now Vampire Lords haven't Summon Allies).
Three Red Seconds: 100 Slaves
Crusher Construction: 5 Gems
Clockwork Horrors: 10 Gems
Wooden Construction: 3 Gems
Mechanical Men: 10 Gems


----------------------------------------------TROOPS CHANGES: -------------------------------------------------
This section is widely incomplete. Many National Heroes belonging to the fighter class have been improved in
skill (att & def).
Even I want to improve more some elites that aren't so used due to the high res cost. This will raise the value
of taking Production scale instead of Sloth. Attack, Defence and any other value are pre-equipment. Armor/Weapons
can change them.

ABYSYA:
Slightly Improved Abysyan Infantry (not humanbred).
Slightly Improved Abysyan Sacreds (both)
Price Changes:
Warlock Apprentice: 140 Gold
Anthemath Salamander: 170 Gold
Anthemath Dragon: +1? Magic
Substituted: Salamder with Abysyan Heavy Cavalry (elite units, costing however 90 Gold and 90 Res)

ULM:
Slightly Improved Ulm Infantry, for 12 gold now.
Improved Black Plate Infantry, for 13 gold now.
Improved Guardians, and Black Knights/Templars.
BF Zwaihanders, gone Elite, for 12 gold now.
Improved all fighting commanders.

MARIGNON:
Slightly Improved Royal Guard and Man-at-Arms (for 15 gold now).
Improved Knight of the Chalice and Paladin.
Grand Master: 250 Gold
CotS:
Royal Navigator, 290 gold, +2 Water.
Chartmaker, 150 gold, +1 Water.
Captain, +1 Water.
Admiral, 110 gold, +2 Water.

TIEN CHI:
Slightly Improved Imperial XXXX troops.
Improved Imperial, Red Guard and Prince General.
Supply bonus to Eunuch.
Celestial Master now: 2A, 1E, 1F, 1W, 1S, 1?, 290 gold.
M. of 5 Elements now: 1A, 1E, 1F, 1W, 1N, 2? (elemental), 250 gold.
National spells reduced in cost. (10 Divine Soldier, 2 Divine Servant, 2 Fire Demon, 3 River Demon).
Tien Chi needed some battle mages, AND mages that were able to cast National Spell like Divine Soldiers
without wasting turns of the Prophet.

PYTHIUM:
Theurg: 180 Gold

CAELUM:
Seraph: 130 Gold
Arch Seraph: 250 Gold

C'TIS:
Lizard King: 180 Gold

ERMOR:
Thaumathurg: now 2 Death magic. Sacred.
Gran Thaumathurg: now 4 Death magic. Sacred.

INDEP/MAGIC SITE REC.
Militia: Mountain and Forest Survival (they could be enlisted sheepherd and woodsmen).
Grey Knight/Lord: Improved Stats. Grey Lord now has 2 Astral Magic.
Fire Lord: Improved Stats.

Blood Slave: Fire Resistance 100%

SUMMONS:
Fallen Angel, Angel of the Host, Harbinger, Arch Angel:
Stat Improvement.
Vampire Lord:
Summon Allies removed.
Ice/Arch Devils:
Someone of them now has a new default weapon. It was pretty strange that many of them come out with
a quarterstaff that does the same amount of damage than a quarterstaff wielded by an human sized creature (I
suppose a Demon brandish a sort of Demonic weapon of his size). My will is to change to almost all of them the
default weapon except someone.

Plan for next releases:
Balance a little the Elemental Lords (Air Queens seems to be stronger than some others).
National troops and mages balance. (something is still missing for sure!!!)
Apply good suggestions and improve the balance of the mod.

0.2 Changes:
Moloch: back to every nation before could get it. Lost Fire Shield, and Ambidex, Cost to 110.
G.Warlock: lost Fireshield.

Tien Chi and Mary CotS: Modified Mages.
Abysya: Raised slightly the cost from 0.1 of the Warlock App and Ant Salam. Dragon back to 360 but added 1 random.
Ulm: BF Zweihanders now improved in stats.
Many Nations Heroes improved.

More cost to Wraithsword and Hellsword.
Copper Plate and Ice Pebble Staff modified.

Tien Chi National Spells lowered in cost.
__________________________________________________ ________

[archaeolept]

is there some reason you couldn't post this in your already existing "yay I have a mod too" thread?

and i believe it was already pretty clear that you stole the basis for your pretender mods from zen's mod, just as you took other peoples' graphics w/out first asking for permission or giving attribution until you were called on it.

I want to make this post because I don't want that someone later tells me that I stole ideas from someone else, since there's something equal to Zen Pretender mod.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Esben Mose Hansen]

archaeolept said:is there some reason you couldn't post [...] until you were called on it.


<Rant on>
If that's all you have got to say, why say it at all? Please keep your Posts constructive.
Sorry this hit you, but I am sick and tired of this attitude on these forums. If Cohen wants to make a mod, and even to incorporate other peoples contributions, let him! It isn't costing you anything, after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
</Rant off>

[Soapyfrog]

I agree...!

[Edi]

Not to put too fine a point on it, your pretender modding is just Zen's CB mod with some of the units modified. The Rainbow mages are seriously boosted up and I can see actual SC potential in some of them (e.g. Great Warlock). Compared to the Giant-class pretenders, some of them are utterly insane, they have better magic (hence become viable for bless strategies), low pathcost, some have boosted startdominion, many have additional misc slots.

Never mind the Moloch, which is just completely insane. Let's see, for +25 cost, you get:

additional magic (serious repercussions for taking a powerful bless effect)
almost 50% increase in HP
massive ambidex bonus so you can use practically any two weapons in combo without any penalty
removal of the only thing (imps) that already keeps it from being a singular SC killing machine
a ridiculously powerful native defense that will kill almost any and all indie units except Garnet Amazons that so much as go near it. This is especialy egregious because with F9 the Moloch can get that same Fire Shield with a measly lv 1 Enchantment spell.
only available for a nation that already has a good selection of pretenders and is one of the more powerful both physically and magically (esp. summons department) and which gets a massive bonus from scales (heat), so it becomes even more powerful


In short, the pretender modding just by itself throws all pretense of balance right out the window and made most of the monster and giant type pretenders completely useless, and you have just seriously boosted an already powerful nation into a Category all its own with an SC that will eat almost anything for lunch to begin with, not to mention when it's fully kitted out. I've almost no MP experience and arguably less experience with Dom2 in general than many of the posters here, but even to me this is obvious.

Your known preference for playing Abysia only compounds the perception that this mod is mainly intended to be Abysia fanwhoring with some scraps and bones thrown out for other nations to to have some (false) semblance of "balance" (i.e. the mod is all balanced out if nobody plays Abysia).

Thanks, but I think I'd much rather wait for the rest of the volumes for Zen's CB series which also has the benefit of modularity so you can pick and choose what parts to use (pretenders in one mod, items in another, spells presumably in a third, summoned units in another and national troops in yetr another).

Maybe I'm being harsh, but in my not so very humble opinion, not undeservedly. I liked Zen's mod, but this one... Well, let's just say that I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, and if the changes that were talked about in the other thread were implemented (especially for Abysia), this thing is so lopsided it's ludicrous.

If you really want to make a mod that addresses issues of balance, the way to go about it is NOT massively boosting one nation and giving the others some bones.

Edi

[archaeolept]

sorry esben, but insofar as cohen has the right to spam stuff about his mod all over IRC and the forum, I surely have an equal right to put forth (once) my opinion on it.

I might just point out that your post does nothing other than what you accuse mine of doing. Now, frankly, i'm cool w/ that - its easy to understand why you posted what you did. However, I don't feel I should need to keep my opinion hidden just to satisfy the opinions of others. I stayed out of cohen's mod thread. So, please explain to me why we need another one? especially for what is essentially a vanity project on his part.

Edi: funnily enough, my Mictlan Moloch just whomped cohen's almost ermorian scales Abysia in the Thrones game; which might go some way to explain why he wants to make the moloch Abysia only http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

while the moloch's imps can be a real pain, i'm not sure that he is a bad buy anyways at the moment. cohen's changes are just sick - the free 18 AP fireshield is even better than one would have w/ F9 and the spell.

[Cohen]

I've put all in the same Mod because an Item change could effect other change (the most clear is if Clam cost is raised, some Astral based spells will become harder to cast unless their price is lowered).

Modules could be good, but a global overview is needed IMO.

I really disbelief that Abysya will become stronger, however as the mod itself says, it's 0.1. So it's far from his completeness, and I asked too to test his own balance.
Please proof your words so on testing itself.

About Moloch ... sadly there's a bugged command (#restrictedgod, that limits its use to 1 nation only and is not cumulative as explained in Modding help, but has been already reported). It should be Abysya, Mictlan and Marignon only (and I'm thinking to swith it to Marignon, since Abysya has a new brand Pretender Moloch-like). I'd like more to be able to assign Pretenders to certain Themes only, instead of to an entire Nation.

I've personally tested Human Pretenders, both in base and Zen mod. They'ren't worthing to get taken in both of them.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

archaeolept said:
sorry esben, but insofar as cohen has the right to spam stuff about his mod all over IRC and the forum, I surely have an equal right to put forth (once) my opinion on it.


Suit yourself. Bye.

[Tuidjy]

archaeolept said:is there some reason you couldn't post this in your already existing "yay I have a mod too" thread?



Yup, there is a reason. The Last post there, by my girlfriend, did a good job
at explaining why what he was doing was an exercise in futility. It would have
been strange to follow that well-thought out post with the stinking bull****
in this topic's original post.

Lets take even a superficial look at some of his changes...

1. Moloch. Holy [censored]! Abysia only holy [censored] on a stick!
2. Great (no kidding) Warlock. Let me see. Higher fire, blood, blood hunt
bonus, titan level domain, giant level hps, human path cost... ah, forget it,
maybe the Moloch actually is not the only sane choice for Abysya after all.
3. [Golden] Naga - the new, improved rainbow SC, but cheaper, with tons of Hps,
and mounted. I miss the Ghost King less, all of a sudden.
4. Virtue - Wow! Starting Astral. Much better fighter. Stick some water and
earth on her, and you got an SC better than anything seen outside of Cohen's
mods. And in case, you, like some people with names starting with 'Cohe' like
to use her with Abysia, she comes with built in fire and fire resistance.
5. Fire wand. Can't have fire nations' troop leaders just standing around.
6. Blood thorn. Hey, blood nations need their blood boosters.

What is the common theme? Fire and blood.
What is the common theme of these? Abysia.
What is Cohen favorite nation which, according to him and no one else, is
woofully unperpowered? Abysia.
Who would even play with this mod? Cohen and other people with an IQ below
room temperature. In Centigrade.

[archaeolept]

actually, some of those are just straight from zen's mod. the naga doesn't seem to me to be that off - in practice I found that being coldblooded was especially dangerous for a rainbow mage. It is true that the golden naga can take the GK's place, but i'm not sure yet if it is unbalanced.
Suit yourself. Bye.

sorry Esben, but I don't understand your tone. Cohen's mod has a history outside of this post, which I was indicating. In fact, what is the self-proclaimed rationale for his post? Cohen says he made "this post because I don't want that someone later tells me that I stole ideas from someone else, since there's something equal to Zen Pretender mod." - as such, Cohen is situating his work vis a vis other people, and the community. Can't we give our response? Of course Cohen can make whatever wacky mods he wishes; that is his right.

[Cohen]

Tujidi, I repeat.
Your opinion matter nothing to me, because you're able to play only with Air (AbUser) Magic and Clams and/or Raiding nations.

What do you play: Pythium, Caelum or Vanheim.
This is what I've to answer to you, to let people know you know only 1 way to play ... I really doubt you can understand anything about balance ... after all you were following Norfleet ideas about not nerfing stuff and such.
Well, it's so clear we've the same opinion to each other, the stuff I like more is that you comment without trying out and that you see only what it has been done to Abysya.

I know people is intelligent, someone taking Abysya will not be able to play with all those listed pretenders, and I know someone that gets the Cyclop to make cheaper Contracts, for example.
However as I said, if someone will demonstrate me that Abysya in this mod is overpowered, I'll review it.

The effective comment since now I've took in consideration is to remove the Fire Shield from G.Warlock and Moloch. (thx to Edi), leaving it to Baphomet by default instead.

[Edi]

Cohen said:
Modules could be good, but a global overview is needed IMO.


Why? If you balance certain subsets that are available to everyone equally within themselves (e.g. pretenders, or items), you don't need to tinker with everything and you can keep the consequences of modification on the game balance more controlled.


Cohen said:
I really disbelief that Abysya will become stronger, however as the mod itself says, it's 0.1. So it's far from his completeness, and I asked too to test his own balance.
Please proof your words so on testing itself.


Yes, far from complete. Try to put some thought into it, is what I ask. You can scream about Abysia not becoming overpowered with these changes, but the only one who will believe it is you.

I don't even need to run the mod, the numbers on the Moloch and the Great Warlock say it all for me. I've designed enough pretenders to be able to roughly calculate what I can get from those base stats and how to use them, and they are utterly insane.

Just provide the mod for easy download (attachment or whatever) and I'll take a look, but I'm so far not impressed at all. If I see any potential in it, I can even help you with the documentation (not a native speaker, but my English skills are as good as a native's). For me to bother with that, though, there needs to be significant improvement. As things stand now, I've promised to helping Zen out with docs, and his work has priority on both merits and prior commitment.


Cohen said:
About Moloch ... sadly there's a bugged command (#restrictedgod, that limits its use to 1 nation only and is not cumulative as explained in Modding help, but has been already reported). It should be Abysya, Mictlan and Marignon only (and I'm thinking to swith it to Marignon, since Abysya has a new brand Pretender Moloch-like). I'd like more to be able to assign Pretenders to certain Themes only, instead of to an entire Nation.


It's a shame the command is bugged, it would come in handy. The theme specific pretender thing is as I understand it, impossible. It would work if you first picked nation, then theme and only then selected pretender (would make more sense that way), but that would require (I think) a major change in the game mechanics, or at least in the mechanics of pretender generation.


Cohen said:
I've personally tested Human Pretenders, both in base and Zen mod. They'ren't worthing to get taken in both of them.


So have I, and I have not had any trouble with them. Haven't used them in multislayer games, as I've only taken part in two so far, but that does not preclude their use altogether. They require different strategies than an SC, and perhaps you are not good with those strategies. I know I'm not good at all with some strats that some people use to great effect, while I'm pretty comfortable with others. It all depends on what style of play suits you best, and from the looks of the modded Great Warlock, it seems like you would like a rainbow SC. The end result is that with the modded GW, the best options from both worlds are available without any of the weaknesses, and that just kills it, it's nothing but a humongous spoiler.

Edi

[Alneyan]

I believe you can make Pretenders available for only a couple of nations: what if you made several minor variations on the same theme? For example, Abysia would get a Demonbred, with the same stats as the Moloch, and Abysia-only, while Mictlan would get a Moloch Mictlan-only, Machaka a Fiery Spirit, and so on. It may even work without giving new names to each "individual" Pretender.

Incidentally Edi, I love this typo:

Haven't used them in multislayer games, as I've only taken part in two so far



While you have only played two such games, it looks like you have perfectly grasped the basic nature of a multiplayer game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I am not a nitpicker on such typos, but this one seems to be amusing; and some levity, even if poorly done, cannot hurt in this particular thread.

[Cohen]

Thinking to switch Moloch on Marignon.

For human pretenders, I can assure they're damn frail.
I tried a Great Warlock (and with 24 HP it isn't an SC chassis, he has great risks to get crushed by any indep, considering his combat stats aren't great and he's precision 9 by default!) with A5, F5, B3, W3 (A5 = +5 Precision, and able to cast Aim to help more, F5 to cast some more flares with quickness, A5 and F5 as base for Air Queens and Fire Kings, B3W3 needed for Ice Devils), it got crushed by a Blue Dragon with ease (even if the aimed flare hit the dragon the 2nd turn - quickness, aim, flare, flare, flare were the script - and set it aflame, the huge amount of HP of the dragon, combined with quickness and BoW allowed it to smash both infantry and pretender).

Personally I've liked more to give them some special skill (like the Great Warlock with Imps in battle, or a Blood Magic bonus, since we're talking about this. Or like an Arch Mages with a general spellcasting bonus of 10% in gem/fatigue discount to talk of something else ... but I can't do that via modding.).
Don't forget Rainbow Humans are frail, and they'll lose the most points of magic by getting killed.

The base HP of a pretender are heavily modfied by your own dominion (or enemy).
Playing in MP means if your Pretender is spotted by enemy, that he gets arrowed or something else (seeking arrows or wind ride, fires from afar, or anything you could throw at, especially if it's frail). Having 1 slot occupied with an Amulet of Missile Protection, and some immunities instead of some boosters isn't so nice.

[Edi]

Alneyan, it's no typo. I intentionally use the term "multislayer" to refer to MP games more often than not. Because, as you said, that's what they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cohen, you can get Missile prot from Silver Hauberk as well, or from Shield of Valor. Your GW is no high end SC, but a more than adequate low end one when you kit it out and use it in conjunction with support troops. The fact that it got stomped by a high end SC means absolutely squat because its greatest impact will be against indeps in early game expansion. Last I checked, you don't get anything like that with indeps.

Zen's mod takes care of the rainbow pretender frailty issue, and many of your modifications are ridiculous, there is no end run around that fact.

Edi

[Cohen]

Zen Mod take care only of their frailty issue.

With almost no starting pathes or 1 as starting path, they can't be great mages ... they pay a lot of points to even get for a 0 lvl to a 4 lvl in a path! (10+16+24+32=82 pts).
They're so not suited for heavy spellcasting, nor for heavy blessing, nor for combat, and they don't provide combat skills to take out province in solo.
They're good to mixed forging and site searching (and it's damn slow, and if someone rushes you with any SC pretender type you're so dead...) so probably their usefullness reveals in a long term game ... but I'm not so sure if you take 1 province/turn (with your army) meanwhile the enemy start taking 2 provinces/turn (1 with army, 1 with pretender) thus having potentially twice of your gold and gem income, thus having more stuff/items/castles/temples and supplying his lack of magery with probably amazons, druids or good magic sites that he've found in his superior number of provinces.

Frailty here is the same in Zen mod, but they at least could excel in spellcasting or blessing (even a human pretender should be better to rely on good blessed troops/army than a powerful pretender that is strong on his own).

Don't forget the Scale change, that usually will lessen the points you can sink in your pretender magic.

[Peter Ebbesen]

While I, too, am staggered by the highpowered Moloch with his inherent fireshield 18 and his Fire 4, which makes getting a L9 Fire blessing cost only 120 instead of 168 (minimum for a L9 blessing for all other pretenders, i.e. equivalent to an entire extra scale), there is another pretender I am even more stumped by..

MASTER ALCHEMIST: Named "Arcane Blacksmith", Forge Bonus 40, Fire 2 Earth 2, HP 19, Enc 1, Prec 12, Cost 60.

Forge Bonus 40?? Add a hammer and you have 65, work at the steel ovens (if you find them) and you have 85. Forge the Hammer of the Forge Lord or kill the Cyclops (if you can get them) and you have 90. Pretty neat considering the maximum applied is 80. Time to mass produce incinerating rods, robes of invulnerability, or other quality stuff. (If, against all odds, you get FoA up, your pretender can make 80 gem items for 24 gems barehanded, 14 gems with a dwarven hammer, and 8 gems with the Hammer of the Forge Lord.)

...Of course, you would probably be better off playing a blood nation (blood Ulm or ordinary Ulm blooded) and have been forging blood contracts for (1-0.65)*80 slaves = 28 slaves per round since round 10-15 or so. A not insubstantial saving in cost. No dedicated blood nation can compete.

...Please believe me. Giving a pretender a forge bonus is giving him a massive boost in power. If done for thematic reasons (though it is not obvious why an alchemist should get such a bonus. A smith, yes, but an alchemist?), might I suggest a smaller one of 10%?

Anyhow, good luck with your mod. It is always nice to see somebody being creative, even when it appears to be of the dangerously unstable kind of creativity. Remember, so long as you have fun with your work, the more power to you: That is what is most important.

Considering other peoples criticism is only necessary if you expect to find players who will agree to play your mod in MP.

[Huzurdaddi]

Considering other peoples criticism is only necessary if you expect to find players who will agree to play your mod in MP.




How bang on is that? Nicely done.

[Cohen]

Sadly in fact I'd put that pretender to Ulm Default or Iron Faith only, but this is not feasible.
Perhaps 40 is too much, and should be down to 25 (to a master smith level), but I aimed to give Ulm a boost in forging.
True, if used by BF theme, it could be an exploit because they don't lack of the magic inflexibility of common Ulm.

This is a good statement Peter, but I'd ever doubt if I put a "house condition" that this pretender could be taken only by IF and Default Ulm will be applied.
I'll consider to reduce that forge bonus.

And yes, I aim to use my mod in MP.

[Kel]

Peter Ebbesen said:
...Please believe me. Giving a pretender a forge bonus is giving him a massive boost in power. If done for thematic reasons (though it is not obvious why an alchemist should get such a bonus. A smith, yes, but an alchemist?), might I suggest a smaller one of 10%?



Not agreeing or disagreeing with the balance of a forge bonus but, to be fair, the Conceptual Pretenders mod that Cohen used as a basis has a 25% forge bonus on the cyclops, a viable SC with built in 3E hammer building. I haven't even looked at Cohen's mod but if a 25% forge bonus on an SC is ok, a 40% forge bonus on a human wouldn't seem that much of a stretch (though it should definitely be taken into account in pretender cost).

- Kel

[Zen]

I would seem that a SC with high path costs would benefit less from a forge bonus because he is limited to one action a turn can either forge or kill armies single handedly.

But of course, that might just be my preference to use SC's for the duty of killing things and not being intimidating and forging items.

There is no doubt that early in the game, or with certain strategies a forge bonus has a high impact (Forging cheaply your first Indy stomping equipment, or later in the game).

But a Forge bonus benefits the ones who can forge a variety of items more than it does one that is limited by it's paths.

[Cheezeninja]

Cohen said:
And yes, I aim to use my mod in MP.



If you aim to use your mod in mp you seriously need to rethink the massive empowering you are giving Abysia. I dont understand how you can say you don't think your boosting Abysia when you are lowering the costs of every mage, boosting their non humanbred infantrys stats and making the apprentice non capitol only...what else would you call this? If you are seeking to do a overall balance mod you should consider which races are more powerful overall, and not just from your point of view. A good way to do that would be to look at the power rankings poll: Post#297066 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=297066) where nearly everybody but you ranked Abysia in the top 5. A top 5 nation does not need any boosting in a global balance mod, the nations like Tien Chi and BE Ermor need boosting. When you give massive boosts to a nation thats already generally viewed as one of the most powerful in the game it appears to be nothing but blatant favoritism, compounded by the fact that you are known for playing this nation more than any other. Abysia is one of my favorite nations, but if you include these outrageous changes in your mod, don't expect me to join any games with your mod in it.

[Huzurdaddi]

I think Cohen does not realize the power of Blood magic. It it a school of magic availiable to only a select few nations and with good reason, it is awesome.

Blood is the best summoning school in the game. The only path which comes close is Death. Blood contains 11 full fledged SC's. It contains, perhaps, the best overall unit in the game the devil. It contains the only immortal unit. It has an excellent summon in the vampire.

It's just a great school. There is a reason why people who stumble upon sages really hope that they get blood as their random.

Abysia does *not* need help at the moment. The Moloch is insane. Zen's pretender mod pretty much addresses the pretender problems in the game ( although I think that the poor humans are still underpowered ).

[Kel]

Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel

[Zen]

Kel said:
Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel



Oh, Semi-useless. The GK isn't powerful because he can be a site searcher, forger and SC, but that he requires multiple paths to be a SC, has a host of intrinsic abilities, 0 Enc, low path cost.

If you want to argue that because it allows a secondary function to a SC, then I will agree that it does indeed. I don't see too many humans with only one eye and can be rendered unable to cast rituals, or site search because they gain the "lost an eye" affliction.

Your milage may vary, but putting a forge bonus on a unit that can't take a multitude of paths is potent if used properly, it is not *as* potent as one that can buy many more paths for cheaper.

Of course if Cohen wants to use that as a base, he may want to rethink the bonus on the Cyclops, and apply a lesser forge bonus in order to have the "I UBER FORGE I HU-MAN" logic and have the cap not quite be 40% but instead 25%.

Edit: This doesn't quite compare though to the fact that the Alchemist gets 4 paths, costs 60 and has a forge bonus. Though I'm sure it make sense to someone.

[Cohen]

You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).

So you'll get more gold and gem because you've more income (both gold and gem).

Blood isn't that strong. Death has Banelords, Wraithlords, and Tartarians, plus a very good battle magic.
Even with the Vamp Lord without summon allies, and with the raised cost of Drain Life weapons the SC value should be lesser.

About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.

Alchemist (now Arcane Blacksmith) has poor combat skill, and hp. The real issue is to give that 40% forge bonus to Black Forest Ulm, that really doesn't deserve it.

[Kel]

I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel

[Zen]

Cohen said:
You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).



Yes, I totally forget that SC's stomp indies! You are correct sir! How could I miss that? I'm glad you pointed out this glaring mistake in my thinking.

[Zen]

Kel said:
I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel



Oh, so being flexible amounts to being powerful? So a human rainbow is not-powerful because he can't do one of the three things?

Or just that he's less powerful than a GK because he can do it all at a more reasonable price and without alot of the limitations of said human pretenders (while still being powerful?)

A pretender can be powerful by being only good at one thing, if that one thing allows you to fill a gap or weakness in the nation you are being a pretender for.

Of course that might just be your opinion and how you play, which is fine, because that is the only perspective that matters, to you.

You don't have to tell me that the GK is a good pretender, well suited to mulitple roles and if you wish to spend the points, suited to nearly all the roles that any number of nations need in order to be competitive.

That might be why in my mod he was modified in a 'nerf' direction because he overlapped any and all Pretenders in his class range (Half-Rainbow, Rainbow).

Edit: I will also add that he has the highest raw Def of any Pretender/SC. So he will always be strong defensively because of this and his undead abilities.

[Cheezeninja]

Cohen said:
About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.




THIS is the real issue most everyone has with your mod, it will ALWAYS be the real issue, and nonwithstanding the moloch and forge bonus's, is the main reason nobody will take your MOD seriously. The nation ranking wasn't a ranking on what you like to play, or what plays simplest (and Caelum plays MUCH simpler than Abysia IMO) it was a ranking on what individuals percieve to be the most powerful nation. Abysia is consistently ranked at the top of that list, so whether or not you believe those rankings, others most assuredly do and for this reason view your MOD with scepticism bordering on outright disbelief. Abysia IS powerful in the eyes of 99% of the people who play this game and if you expect others to take an interest in your mod for MP you are going to have to accept this fact.

[Edi]

Ok, Cohen, I'm officially withdrawing that tentative offer I made earlier. This mod of yours is, like I said before, so lopsided it's ludicrous.
It gives insane boosts to Abysia
It comparatively nerfs some other nations' units despite minor boosts
It outright nerfs some nations significantly (esp. Caelum)
It nerfs certain powerful summons and renders them undesirable while some already great summons are radically improved
Pretender balance does not exist anymore
Even some of the other spell modifications are at least suspect. More in the following.


Hellbind Heart, 40 fatigue? What are you smoking? Just spam the battlefield with that spell and combine with Relief, that's a huge spoiler. Easily achievable using communion or sabbath too, so this is nothing more than another massive boost for Abysia. Line up Warlock Apprentices and have them cast either Sabbath or Communion Slave while the warlocks use master, and that's a HBH spam army right there.

The most drastically improved summons and rituals are, surprise, surprise, astral and fire spells, so these again serve to directly make Abysia more powerful. Marignon too, but not quite as much. Succubus, already a good summon, has been slashed 25%, when by the time you get blood summons of that level, you should have a well established blood economy. So more unbalanced oomph right there. Except what's the use of it, when HBH spam is a viable strategy?

Solar Brilliance 300 fatigue, no gems? Yup, can't have those pesky Ermorian armies or other nations running about with demon hordes, so form a squad of apprentices and warlocks, preferably with crystal/slave matrices and slam them with SB right off the bat in later game when high end spells are available. No fuss, no muss, and most importantly, no danger at all.

Undead Mastery and Master Enslave, 400 fatigue, no gems? Again, communion via matrix, start with this and you'll have yourself a brand spanking new army, or enough of one that the enemy will have his hands full just dealing with the enslaved units before he can even begin to look in your direction. Strangely, Master Enslave is another astral spell, giving the already astrally powerful Abysia ANOTHER boost. Why am I not surprised.

By now I'm too disgusted to even start going through any more of that list, but it's obvious you have no idea whatsoever about what you are doing, other than boosting Abysia to completely, ludicrously insane levels.

You also seem to be completely deaf to all the comments and criticisms of your choices, and you either ignore them outright, or make up weak rationalizations that don't withstand any kind of indepth scrutiny to justify to yourself why they really are ok despite boosting one already powerful nation way above others. Or you just have an incredibly poor grasp of Dom2. Pick your poison.

In the other places I normally frequent, this kind of behavior is called by its real name, fanwhore wanking, and your response tactics by their also more apt name, IWOI, short for Invincible Wall of Ignorance, a wall of denial so thick nothing gets through.

This mod as it now stands isn't salvageable, it's a complete and utter trainwreck even before it has left the station, and nobody here is going to want to play it, especially in MP. As that is your aim, better start addressing the criticisms or expect the mod to find no audience. If you intend to use it in SP, then I'll echo what Peter Ebbesen said about creativity.

Edi

[johan osterman]

Edi: spells cost 1 gem per full hundred fatigue. So your complaints about solar brilliance etc are at least partially misplaced.

Edit: Although the reduced gem cost of some of the more powerfull spells súch as master enslave means that it will become available to lower level mages that use gems to boost their skills.

[Edi]

Ah, I didn't know that, Johan. Thanks for clarifying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Then that part of my complaint is invalid, but it won't be exactly difficult to come up with sufficient gems and with sufficient casting levels through communion and gem boosting for even rather low level mages. It will make Pythium, Arco, Abysia and R'lyeh very powerful, but also puts these spells within reach of even weak astral nations. Let's see, Starshine Skullcap, Banner of the North Star, Crystal Coin (optional, really), a bit of gem boost and sufficient communion, and wham, even an S2 mage will be casting Master Enslave with relative ease.

Same for all the astral spells, and even the others, all you need is get Communion or Sabbath going and you can do that for almost any spells, no matter the path. Even non-astral, non-blood mages can do it, though it requires a bit more effort, but not outside the realm of possibility. And the worst part of it is that the communion/sabbath's main purpose now is to just boost the caster's magic to sufficient level to execute the spells (like Arcane Domination), risk of damage is no longer all that relevant. Even to the communion/sabbath slaves, because you need so many to boost the magic path that the fatigue just disappears.

Edi

[Cohen]

Personally Edi, I don't see the point of the Spell aggression.
Abysya usually has claims on Blood, and yes, some blood spells are now better because they don't require slaves.
Hellbind Heart is a sort of Enslave Mind now, more coty in fatigue term, and at the same level of magic skill (don't forget the lvl of magic required is added to the chance of resist, don't recall if halved or less however).
And for Sabbath Mastery/Slavery, who'll us a spell that makes your slaves starting with 100 or 66 Fatigue? Considering Reinvigorate doesn't work if casted after (tried on battlefield) by the Master.
So on, considering Abysya goes to Blood-9 research, with all his research problem (having a discount of 20 gold for each warlock apprentice won't make that difference, it's always 1 warlock at turn because capitol only, and you gain 1 scout or heavy inf more), probably those spells will be more useful to someone else, considering many of the pointed spells aren't blood.

I'd agree the Gem requirements were done to make them more difficult to use, but they've already a good level of cost, and not everyone could use communion. And AI waste Gems very quickly. I'd like to keep some spells with an higher gem cost but to lower their fatigue cost, however dunno if you ever tried Solar Brilliance in battle and checked his effectiveness ... it isn't so effective and could blind your units too.

For Caelum, what to say ... they've among the best mages in the game. For 100 Gold you obtain a 2A1W (3 path, and what paths!!!) and for 175 Gold you obtain a 3A2W1? (6 path !!! and not capitol only). Notice in many games the nation that win is Caelum (followed by any other Air Nation, usually Pythium and Vanheim, oh well expect in the games where Caelum has been Banned and not only by me).
However there will be a Copper Plate modify in 0.2 too ... raising it cost, too isy to get lightn immunity with an armor.

Thx Johan for the explaination, I thought to have written it somewhere before, about gem cost ...

[PDF]

Cohen,
I've absolutely nothing against you (we never played together), so maybe you'll trust me more than some other guys ; your mod is unbalanced in my opinion too - not all of it, but the pretender part is ludicrous : human mages become superhuman mages, Moloch becomes super-dooper SC, Alchemist is overabusable, etc..
Of the rest, many ideas/changes (btw you should write "changes" and not "modifies") come direct from Zen's ideas, either for Pretenders or items (Clam-Fetish-Bl. Thorn and Life drain weapons "nerfing" for example).
The unit changes, although badly documented, look more interesting.
Lastly, I don't understand your spell changes : you pretend to defend "national armies" and yet you make magic still more powerful ? I can understand some balance changes to spells - useless low level summons... - but this really require carefulness lest you ruin the game (marvelous) gameplay.

If I were you I would do modules indeed - because each part could be tried/tested independently, and start with less changes, then adjust, rather than throwing everything in right from the beginning.
As it stands I'll certainly not use it in any MP - and not out of "mod-defiance", I've just started a pbem using Zen mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif - but because way too many things are changed at once, without enough rationale and documentation, nor proper forethinking of the impacts.

[Cohen]

About items I had already my mind, as I said in someone else post "What this game really needs", where there was a exaustive discussion about Life Drain, and another post about Clams and Gem Generating item.
For Items I took nothing from Zen.

National armies will be revalued by:
1: Better production scale.
2: Some easier access troop boosting spells (more access to some spells affecting troops).

True, making easier to get some summon improves magic too, but troops can deal with Wyverns, Drakes and such.
The thing that make troops worthless are SCs with drain life. Without drain life (or regeneration + reinvigoration, but they're 2 items instead of 1), even troops could kill an SC.

For your opinion regarding Human Mages, personally I like to them usable. And for Usable I mean they could be taken without letting you know this will make you lose.
Moloch is effectively good now. I'm going to transfer it to Marignon in 0.2, becoming a choice for a fire only bless.
About Alchemist, I've already answered before ... however picking this, means you renounce to your SC from turn 1.
Thx for the advices PDF. Even if you want to help not to ruin the game, want to do some testing?

[Edi]

Cohen, yes, HBH is now more like Enslave Mind. No question about that. The problem with it is that with the changed Sabbath spells (10 fatigue, no slaves), HBH spamming becomes a viable tactic. Sabbath boosts magic levels, and getting +1 or +2 is laughably easy, especially if you find sages or lizards, astral sages and shamans can use communion slave to power a sabbath circle.

As for Caelum, have you taken a look at the nation as a whole? Yes, they have good mages. They also have incredibly crappy troops, which means that until they get a decent level of evocation, they and some other spells, their expansion options are rather limited. There is the SC option, but in and of itself that does not mean much. Caelum is not invincible, and its current strengths do not warrant such a serious nerf when its weaknesses are taken into account. Nor does Caelum being strong in certain areas mean that Abysia needs such a huge boost.

A lot of things depend on luck, especially early on (what indeps and how large provinces around you etc), and a lot more on smart use of resources at hand. The objective is not to cut every nation down to the same size, rather it is to find a balance that allows them to be different and play to their unique strengths. Your modified Abysia has only a single weakness: no missile troops, which is easily remedied by independents.

There is a general trend throughout your mod that pushes balance out the window, which is why nobody is going to like it. Yes, some low level summons need improvement (the drakes most of all), but your sweeping changes wreakmore havoc than anything else.

Edi

[Cohen]

Personally I find Caelum troops good.

Archers with precision 12 + wind guide.
All troops with defaul magic weapon.
Armors that get increased protection in cold provinces.
Flying army (they can swarm early rush pretenders before they buff, and they strike first).
They've Mammooths. Stompa Stompa of indies. (but they usually have better ways to conquer indies).

I'm playing Caelum in a game, and I'm facing Ermor by myself all alone. AE Ermor, so not so easy to cut down with lightnings and false horror (they don't rout, they're so many to lightning them all) and I cannot wind ride their better commander (ouch they're ethereal), but dunno why I've stripped them of every non castled province except one where there're a concentration of dusk elders (well however a Wrathful Skies raid had killed some of them and of the minor D2 leaders) ...
Yes now I've to siege ... uh oh ... wall shakers coming in, with some Harbingers thx to the massive clam I can forge with Caelum. CrushaCrusha. Not to say cold+sloth points = uber GK, + ring of wiz, +ring of sorc, +some death item = Death10 Undead Mastery (with +2 Penetration due to rings!).
Well this was is depriving me of many resources, so probably if someone attacks me later could have upper hand ... but it's easy and common for a third party to get over someone that has just finished an exausting war.

However, even if they've a not so good army, what matter, armyes become useless after turn 20-30 more or less.

Abysya has many more other weaknesses (costy troops/mages for what you obtain, problems in researching and blood hunting at the same time, are 2 of the most clear examples), not only the missing of fire troops.

[Kel]

Zen said:
A pretender can be powerful by being only good at one thing, if that one thing allows you to fill a gap or weakness in the nation you are being a pretender for.




If he can fill that gap plus aid in other areas or even fill other gaps then yes, he is clearly more powerful than a pretender that can only do the one thing. If the GK were only capable of being an SC and nothing else, he would still be decent and he would still be used but he would not be as universally powerful in every situation and thus would not be used as much as he is now.

By taking any human pretender, you give up a lot by losing the SC. I don't think 15% extra forging (over the cyclops) is *that* much of a stretch for the loss of the SC and the vulnerabilities that accompany being a human pretender. Path costs ? I don't know. Pretender cost ? I dont know. But +15% forging, -SC = unreasonable ? No way.

- Kel

[Karacan]

Cohen said:
Personally I find Caelum troops good.
I'm playing Caelum in a game, and I'm facing Ermor by myself all alone.



MP or SP? And if MP, what experience level does your opponent have? And your priests have nothing to do with this easy win, just your troops?

By the way, would you really like to play against this new Abysia of yours? With something other than the great new alchemist of Ulm or the Marignon Moloch.

And for the record, I actually play more or less competitively with human pretenders. They suit my style very well, and I actually managed a win or two. On bigger maps, though, with more than one opponent nation.

And anyway, what's the point of continuing to argue? You won't be budged from your position, and the community (at least indicated by the general sentiment) is unlikely to accept your consideration of balance, and thus equally unlikely to ever use it. I nevertheless admire people who can muster the energy to make massive mods, so I wish you good luck with it. It's satisfying finishing something you put some work in, even if it'll never be used outside SP or a few friends.

[Cainehill]

Peter Ebbesen said:
... there is another pretender I am even more stumped by..

MASTER ALCHEMIST: Named "Arcane Blacksmith", Forge Bonus 40, Fire 2 Earth 2, HP 19, Enc 1, Prec 12, Cost 60.

Forge Bonus 40?? Add a hammer and you have 65, work at the steel ovens (if you find them) and you have 85. Forge the Hammer of the Forge Lord or kill the Cyclops (if you can get them) and you have 90.




How ... nifty. Cost 60? So you could take this Big Cheeze and for just 360 points forge _everything_ that didn't require Astral at obscene discounts. This is with taking Fire and Earth to 4 each, and everything else to level 3 except for Astral, to avoid Magic Duel. 360 pretender points for great magic paths, and then .... Points level over for a castle and for scales. Or toss the Astral magic on as well - you probably have Astral 7 or 9 before anyone tries to Magic Duel you. (Ring of Wizardry, Tome of Power or the Forbidden Light, Starshine Skullcap, Robe of the Magi - takes 3 to 7 or 8 in the end game. Early to Mid-game, Starshine, Crystal Coin, ring of sorcery, takes 3 to 6, and you can actually afford to start with S4 or S5 with this guy, _PLUS_ all the other paths.)

Safe bet Ulm can have the Hammer of the Forge Lord before anyone else, if they try for it. Likewise the Forge of the Ancients. This "Blacksmith" is ... nuts.

Putting a forge bonus on something like the Cyclops, with his 50 point paths, isn't in the same league. The Cyclops will never have all magic paths - more likely just 2, maybe 3, making the forge bonus nice, but hardly heavensent, especially since it's so likely to also be getting used for an SC or for summonings, rather than forgings.

And a druid with Nature-4??? Higher than any of the beings that actually have elemental / mystical ties to nature. Nifty.

Cohen - did you really say you were planning to play this mod MP?

[Cohen]

0.2 in Attachment to download.

All changes in first post, as attachment.