Ulm beefed up ... [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Sly Frog

December 31st, 2004, 02:40 PM

Vicious Love said:
Would it totally throw things outta whack if, instead of keeping Ulm low-magic and magic-susceptible, we made them low-magic and magic-proof?
Were we to raise black steel troops' base MR(Maybe to meteorite guard level), that might give 'em a certain longevity. They'd still be inferior to many other nations' national troops, but they'd be much more viable in the lategame, what with their resistance to Disintegrate, Master Enslave and whatnot.

Having a better resistance to all things magical to me fits in far better with the Ulmish theme. Rather than giving them more magic to fit with other Groups balancewise (which is a reasonable change for balance purposes, but does not fit with the "drain land of no magic" theme), it would be better if the devs actually made their drain scale or the nation itself have a greater impact on the ability to kill Ulmish units with magic.

When I first played Ulm, I assumed that their troops would fight off the effects of magic better (which would then make their high protection more useful than it is now, which is to say useful for about the first 5-10 turns of the game). Instead, if anything, Ulm seems more suceptible to magic than other nations.

Boron

December 31st, 2004, 02:51 PM

Arralen said:
Thought about the MR, too. I'm not quite shure, though - if it works out gameplay-wise, or mod-wise.
Will check if you can change the MR without re-doing all stats.

I like the idea of your mod so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

I also like Vicious Love's suggestion with better Mr .
You just need to add this line afaik :#mr <magic resistance>

So just upping Mr from 9 to 11 or 12 for all ulm units and copy/paste into the mod.dm . Should not need longer then 2 minutes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

9 MR is really low imo . The base penetration roll is 11 + diceroll iirc . So all mr-negate spells should have about 70% success rate at least vs. ulm .
This is especially nasty with charm/enslave mind .

So half of your opponents could just stop your battleline midgame by charming away your troops and you can't do much against .

I have some suggestions for the ulm master smith :
Make him cost 180-200 because he has now very good skills + a forgeboni .
Give him though a lower encumberance . He is a smith so he should not get exhausted quickly . A base encumberance of 2 or 3 is ok imo .

All in all in the current stage your mod imo is already very good and makes ulm just what it should be : Playable in mp . Now it is at least a midclass nation and not together with tien chi among the 2 worst nations .

CUnknown

December 31st, 2004, 02:52 PM

Ulm is supposed to be more susceptible to magic than other nations, taking Drain-3 makes them about even to everyone else.

Raising their magic resistance sounds like a good idea, although I disagree that Ulm needs much if any beefing. They're a perfectly legit nation, it's just that their strengths are in the early game, not the late game. In 1v1's or on very small maps, they're one of the best nations out there.

Boron

December 31st, 2004, 02:56 PM

CUnknown said:
Ulm is supposed to be more susceptible to magic than other nations, taking Drain-3 makes them about even to everyone else.

Raising their magic resistance sounds like a good idea, although I disagree that Ulm needs much if any beefing. They're a perfectly legit nation, it's just that their strengths are in the early game, not the late game. In 1v1's or on very small maps, they're one of the best nations out there.

Hm i think vanheim , marignon , caelum , man or abysia are all suited better even for a 1on1 on small maps than ulm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Endoperez

December 31st, 2004, 05:39 PM

I have also been considering a mod improving Ulm. Maybe we all should think what they need.

Arralen added:
-Full(?) random to Master Smiths
-Even better protection for all units
-Faster armies

other ideas:
-Magic resistance
-Administration/supply bonus (but Ulm already has +50 res. points in its forts!)

my ideas:
-Making their general commanders better:
*slightly cheaper one with ldr 25 but very good battle stats, equipment and/or lower encumberance,
*Black Knight commanders made better at battle
*commander with general bonus(es) like supply bonus, Skeptic ability of lowering dominion (without stealth! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif), maybe Standard, maybe high prec., strength and good ranged weapon...
*commander able to levy troops (think Wolfherd): maybe Light Infantry with prot 7, att 10, def 12 with spear + shield) (not moddable IIRC)
* one commander with ldr 75

*(Iron Faith) Black Acolyte replaced with Black Paladin, who is Black Templar commander. It should be Holy 2 with Inquisitor-ability.

For Iron Faith:
-Black Priest should have E1F1?

-Black Priests made immune to drain like Master Smiths.
both two would be too much IMO

-Both Black Templars and Black Paladins should have increased magic resistance

-For Black Forest: change their starting scout to Vampire Count so that they have natural way of summoning them, given enough time to empower/make boosters.

I have tried making Black Paladin, but trying to use screen captures from DomII is quite hard. I can take the screen capture, remove black(0,0,0) background and add shadow, but I can't resize the picture correctly...

Huzurdaddi

December 31st, 2004, 05:57 PM

These are great changes, if I could make one change it would be to make a greater seperation between the Medium Infantry and the Heavy Infantry. As it currently stands I think I would build the strategic move-2 ( the MI ) over the strategic move-1 ( the HI ) every time. They cost less resources and that movement is really useful.

Tuidjy

December 31st, 2004, 06:16 PM

CUnknown said:
They're a perfectly legit nation, it's just that their strengths are in the early game, not the late game. In 1v1's or on very small maps, they're one of the best nations out there.

Riiight. I challenge you to play me, using Ulm on ANY existing map, including
clash of titans (etremely small, with preset capitals), with ANY settings,
including very retarded research and no magic sites to speak of.

Zen

December 31st, 2004, 06:32 PM

I had some changes slated in the Conceptual Balance series for Ulm that were similiar but not these particular changes. They included:

MI = Strat Move 2
Black Knights = Improved to be the best non-sacred Cavalry in the game (+Hp, +MR, -Gold/Resource)
Master Smith = +Elemental
Arts = RoF 2/Round
Guardian = +Castle Bonus

This might go well with changing certain units (mostly support like the Arts, Pikemen, etc) to Black Steel Chainmail.

Iron Faith

Black Priest +Elemental, +Holy
Black Acolyte +Earth, +Holy
Black Templar +HP, +MR

Black Forest

Ghoul Guardian -Gold Cost
Fortune Teller +Sorcery (Paired)
Zweihander +Str, +Mor

Tuidjy

December 31st, 2004, 07:58 PM

Ulm needs all the help that it can get. I like both the original poster's
suggestions and Zen's modifications. The troops must definitely be better
than run of the mill humans. It makes perfect sense that the strong
arbalesters can load their weapons faster. Reducing the encumberance values
could be justified the same way. As for magic resistance, in Dominions, it
is correlated with an iron will. Who but Ulm would have it?

Beefing magic on smiths is harder to justify, but is necessary for balance
purposes. Elemental makes more sense, but sorcery would be nice indeed.

Taqwus

December 31st, 2004, 08:46 PM

Sorcery would be nice, but less thematic than fire/earth-- and it's easier to open up other magical paths or grow significantly in magical power with sorcery than with elemental magics. Spectres, Acashic Record, Lamia Queens, Skull Mentors forged at 50% off via dwarven hammers, early probing via Dark Knowledge and Astral Probing... perhaps *too* nice for a magic-averse nation.

Hm. Even smiths + hammers + water magic might be problematic for the efficient and athematic clam hoarding.

Supply / siege / conventional combat might make more sense. They won't necessarily need a magical boost if their military machine makes up for it, or if drain scale had more impact on casting fatigue (perhaps even affecting ritual cost?) and so forth.

CUnknown

December 31st, 2004, 09:38 PM

Tuidjy, sure I accept. I was going to offer the same challenge.

Let's play Clash of the Titans, rich world, normal research, normal magic sites, indies strength 5.

You can play any faction but Caelum, Arcosephale, Atlantis, or Ryleh. I am fairly sure I'll win 2 out of 3 games under these conditions, unless you are some sort of god player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Arralen

January 1st, 2005, 06:41 AM

Version 0.9:

-- Changes:
--
-- Master Smith has Fire-1, Earth-2, Elemental-1 now
-- Base Encumbrance is 3, MR is 16
-- Cost 175 gold
--
-- All Standard Inf is STR+1 (fits it's HP 12)
--
-- General MR is 11, which works out to 12.5
-- with the inevitable drain 3 ..
-- Knight Commanders are at 12.
--
-- The troops wear either "Full Chain of Ulm",
-- helmet and have strat move 2, or
-- "Full Plate of Ulm", Black Steel Helmet
-- and have strat move 1.
--
-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17, def -2, enc 4
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 15, def -3, enc 3
--
-- Crossbowmen prec 11
--
-- Black Knight gcost 50 rcost 60
-- Black Lord gcost 120 rcost 60
--
-- Unit descriptions redone, to give some hints
-- about advantageous usage.

And everyone a happy new year !!

Endoperez

January 1st, 2005, 08:01 AM

Interesting... Could you also add either the original stats or the chance to the readme?

I'll test your mod better today, but it already seems very interesting.

And happy new year for you too!

Boron

January 1st, 2005, 09:27 AM

Nice finetuning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
A happy new year as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Arralen said:
Version 0.9:
-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17, def -2, enc 4
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 15, def -3, enc 3

Why does the chain mail get a higher malus to def than the full plate ?
Imo you are more immobile , the stronger your armor is .
So with a chainmail you should be more agile then with a full plate imo .

It doesn't matter much though because defense is very low for ulm units anyways . Their main protection is just protection http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Btw do you plan in future to improve the 2 ulm themes as well ? And tien chi ? And maybe a few themes like return of raptors , pan new age ? Would be cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

If you plan to do this you should keep the approach you did with ulm , mainly strengthening the combat abilities of their units , but not overpowering their mages too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Boron

January 1st, 2005, 10:21 AM

My suggestions for IF ulm :
Give the black acolyte inquisition ability .

Make the black priest drainimmune . This is afaik not directly possible with modding . So give him just a sage bonus of 3 , which cancels out drain 3 dominion and leaves him this way in drain 3 scale with 4 rp .
Reduce his price to 120 gold , but don't change his magic skills .

Finally the black templar should get a small additional extra compared to the other beefed up ulm units because he is capitol only . So to make considering at least a small bless for him worthwhile he could get one of the following goodies :

-Berserk ( +3 - +5 ) because he is a zealot , a religious fanatic .
-Awe , because he is an impressive force .
-50% shock resistence . All black templars get a minor amulet of shockprotection as reward for becoming black templars , the elite unit of IF ulm .

I especially like the idea of giving them the 50% shock resistence . Ulm as a forging nation should be able to forge such a goodie cheaply , so their elite can be completely equipped with this item .
Because they are capitol only + require a lot of resources you probably really rarely will see more then 20 black templars . If their life expectancy against airnations is roughly doubled by this special ability would be imo a good thing .

Atm every ulmunit survives only 1-2 hits by a lightning spell .
The black templar would survive then 2-3 , with great luck 4 hits by an air spell .
That would at least not (almost) make them obsolete already on turn 5-10 .

Endoperez

January 1st, 2005, 02:55 PM

Berserk above +0 would be too much for Templars IMO. They are religious fanatics, so their morale is high. That is far from berserking!

"Impressive force" is not enough to give anyone Awe. That would mean that *all* titan-sized pretenders would have awe.

And Shock Resistance is quite hard to explain. I agree that, gameplay-wise, it would fit. Unfortunately, it's not thematic! Black Templars are religious knights. For them to have Shock Resistance, they would have to be blessed by their god... by Air 9 blessing, which is possible although costly.

Arralen

January 1st, 2005, 04:26 PM

Boron said:

-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17, def -2, enc 4
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 15, def -3, enc 3

Why does the chain mail get a higher malus to def than the full plate ? Imo you are more immobile , the stronger your armor is . So with a chainmail you should be more agile then with a full plate imo .

A common misconception, maybe stemming from all those RPG rules which where authored by -to put it midly- some folks which didn't have a clue about either a)statistics (roll your dice...) and b) medieval/ancient combat. Hollywood filmmakers aren't that much better naturally.

Actually, I tried to model the differences, while keeping it somewhat somewhat consistant with the rest of DOM2, between two fundamentally different armor techniques.

First the heavy, ankle-long double-layered chain mail with underlying padding. In the real word (TM) known in principle since roman times, it was the late 1000s when it became "fashion" (don't quote me on the date, I'm notoriously bad with those. But I know where to look it up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) Earlier, it 'was simply too expensive and/or the material too bad to actually manufacture mail that long. This kind of armor was used 'til 1200, when first serious improvements where made: full "pot" helments, later the first "platen", which developed into the cuirass.

Second the full-body "gothic" armor, similar to those made by Lorenz Helmschied, Augsburg (not Ulm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), around 1480 for "Erzherzog Maximilian I." (later Emporer). Those armors are sometimes depicted "gothic", while they where in fact pre-gothic I think. For a visual check the mod icon ! Those are definitly not much heavier than a full chain mail. But a chain mail does not have "articulated joints", so movement is much more hindered in such an unshaped armor. With "gothic" plate, you can you actually jump, sprint, and it's said someone tried cartwheels with it successfully.

While the chain mail is made to absorb a blow and keep the edge from cutting, the plate armor is made to foremost deflect a blow from a weapon - or a missile.

It doesn't matter much though because defense is very low for ulm units anyways . Their main protection is just protection

That is only partly true - even within the constraints of DOM2. If you check it out - the Black Plate Inf with Tower Shield ends up with a Def of 11, which isn't that bad IMHO. And I'm really thinking about upping the Def of the plate armor even more.

From my personal experience of beeing "on the receiving end" of such an armor, I can tell you that it's amazingly difficult to get an effective hit in, especially if your adversary additionally carries a big shield.

Only -but big drawback- of the "hard case armor" is the prevention of air circulation. You may do everything you want in it - but only for some hours at best. After that, you'll have to get rid of some parts or you'll be boiled alive ... . Wearing a full armor on a long march is impossible.

That's why I gave the mail armor troops strat move 2 and the plate armor troops strat move 1 - they simply need more time to get battle ready and have more difficulties hauling their armor in general.

Btw do you plan in future to improve the 2 ulm themes as well ? And tien chi ? And maybe a few themes like return of raptors , pan new age ? Would be cool

Theme modding is still somewhat difficult. Practically it means using the "notheme" switch and re-doing the whole nation from scrap. Something I don't have the time to atm.
And I must admit, I'm e.g. somewhat clueless what to do about TC S&A to give it a faster start. And Pangaea New Age is something I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Endoperez

January 1st, 2005, 06:36 PM

I am also doing Ulm Upgrade. In fact, I have got it quite ready. I found out how to take working screen captures from Dom, and managed to make the Black Paladin -commander for Ulm Iron Faith.

I changed three of the four "Commanders of Ulm", and will have graphics ready sometime next week (I hope):
-Warlord of Ulm is good combatant, with hits 17, str 14 and att/def 13. He only leads 25 units, and has Berserk +0.
-General of Ulm *was* a good combatant. Now he is old and bitter, but adored by the young ones. He has Standard 10 and leads 75 units, but is quite weak as far as Ulmish go. He wears Full Chain with no shield, and has a Battle Axe.
-Nobleman of Ulm is the kind of a guy who would be much happier living in less warlike country. He is too afraid to fight as a Commander, so he takes his trusty arbalest and tries to stay as far in the back as possible. They have precision 14 and only lead 10 units.

I also gave Black Lords def 13 (equal to the Warlord's) and Lord Guardian mapmove 2, supplybonus 6.

I don't know if my mod is good, balance-wise, but it will be interesting to see how well my mod stacks with Arralen's...

Boron

January 1st, 2005, 08:55 PM

I didn't know the stuff about armors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
Are you playing live RPGs and have your own armor rebuilds or how do you know that ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Arralen said:

Boron said:
Btw do you plan in future to improve the 2 ulm themes as well ? And tien chi ? And maybe a few themes like return of raptors , pan new age ? Would be cool

Theme modding is still somewhat difficult. Practically it means using the "notheme" switch and re-doing the whole nation from scrap. Something I don't have the time to atm.
And I must admit, I'm e.g. somewhat clueless what to do about TC S&A to give it a faster start. And Pangaea New Age is something I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I think you can just load the units like the black templar and change their stats . This way you shouldn't need to mod the complete theme i think ( haven't tested it practically but the mod manual implies it imo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif )

Endoperez

January 1st, 2005, 09:15 PM

To Boron: Yep, it is very possible to edit units in themes, thus changing the theme somehow, although it is not possible to mod themes themselves.

Also, MY Ulm Upgrade is ready. Mainly as I wrote above.
General of Ulm has main sprite made from the base of Battle Deacon of Pythium, but the result is very different. I am quite proud of that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I made attack sprite myself. \O to /O must be the simplest attack animation...
Nobleman of Ulm has graphics taken directly from game. If someone wants, I have green Version too. Played with IrfanView color settings. Again, I made attack sprite.
Black Paladin: main sprite from game, and surprisingly, attack sprite from the game as well! Lots of work, I'll tell you...

Black Lord cost was lowered to make him more useful as a combatant. I would like to have both Warlord and Black Lord be competent Thugs, but I'm afraid Warlord is only useful if you really need flying and don't have any other choice...

I gave supply bonus to Lord Guardian so that Ulm would get one more non-magical support unit, and it makes LG even better during sieges. I think of it as extra storages instead of ability to create more food. I also gave him mapmove 2 he should have.

Liga has graphics up at his page, but those lack shadows. I found out how not to remove shadows...

Legacyspy

January 1st, 2005, 09:38 PM

Looks cool, im downloading it and will try it tonight.

Tuidjy

January 2nd, 2005, 11:58 PM

CUnknown said:
Let's play Clash of the Titans, rich world, normal research, normal magic sites, indies strength 5.

Very fair settings. I have never played at indies 5, but I do not expect it
to be too different from indies 6.

But let me get one thing straight. The fight is without the mod, right? You
did say 'although I disagree that Ulm needs much if any beefing.'

You can play any faction but Caelum, Arcosephale, Atlantis, or Ryleh.

I think that Pythium/Abysia/Marignon/Man/Vanheim/Ermor/C'tis would not have
any trouble either. May I just ask why you single out Arco as a dangerous
adversary?

By the way, I will play pretenders I have fielded before. It would be unfair
to tailor my pretender for Ulm. I intend to play one game each with Pythium,
C'tis, and Abysia - i.e. to attempt winning with mages, undead, and troops.

I am fairly sure I'll win 2 out of 3 games under these conditions, unless you are some sort of god player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh, boy. To quote my girlfriend: "He better do it, or you will be even more
unsufferable than you usually are on the Boards." Well, I put her on a plane
this morning, so I am all yours... how do you want to do this?

CUnknown

January 3rd, 2005, 04:01 AM

I hate to tell you this, but you're going to lose, Tuidjy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Of course I'm going to play without the mods! I'm going to use base Ulm, in all it's early-game ***-kicking glory. I am also going to use a god I have fielded before (really the only one I've ever used with Ulm). I typically play Ulm geared more towards the mid-late game, because I never need any help in the early game. Ulm is just that good early on.

I figure Arcosephale is one of Ulm's biggest threats because of their astral mages (mind burn, paralyze, mind hunt, etc. against low MR units) and their easy access to trampling (chariots, elephants). Having a 26 protection on your wuss units loses it's charm if you're being stomped by an elephant. Also their Heart Compainions are equal if not better than Ulm's heavy infantry, so there's no advantage there either. I think Arcos just has Ulm's number, even in the early game.

Why don't we do this by e-mail? I can host, you can host, whatever is easiest.

Tuidjy

January 3rd, 2005, 04:53 AM

CUnknown said:I hate to tell you this, but you're going to lose, Tuidjy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

We shall see about that, won't we? Of course, if you lose even under these
very favorable conditions, I expect your vocal support every time someone
tries to talk the developers into beefing up Ulm.

tinkthank

January 3rd, 2005, 09:22 AM

Sounds like some good ideas, all very nice.
If I may....

- Faster-loading Arbs sound too powerful to me.
- I wouldnt want too many strat-2 Ulm units, I think that detracts from the Ulmish flavor.
- The higher MR sounds like a very good solution.
- Elemental smiths are really very strong now -- had anyone considered a unit with 1 full random, sort of like a sage with higher MR and without research bonuses?

deccan

January 3rd, 2005, 09:52 AM

Tuidjy said:

CUnknown said:I hate to tell you this, but you're going to lose, Tuidjy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

We shall see about that, won't we? Of course, if you lose even under these
very favorable conditions, I expect your vocal support every time someone
tries to talk the developers into beefing up Ulm.

Wow, first MP game this year! I bet 10 astrals on Tuidjy winning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Yvelina

January 3rd, 2005, 03:25 PM

20 astrals Petar will win the games with C'tis and Abysia.

The only chance CUnknown has will be in the first game where he should go straight for Pythium's capital and hope that Petar cannot stop him on turn eight/nine. On that one, I will make no bet, but I would certainly love to see the turn files after the game is over.

Huzurdaddi

January 3rd, 2005, 03:51 PM

The only chance CUnknown has will be in the first game where he should go straight for Pythium's capital and hope that Petar cannot stop him on turn eight/nine.

Well if it is going to be a quick game then perhaps Serpent Cult with a strong bless would be the way to go ( eg: E9N9 ). While such a nation runs out of gas pretty quickly the troops are nigh impossible to stop ( except for the vulnerable preist who is there simply to cast bless ).

Also very short/small games can come down to whom has the best combat pretender. In which case Ulm is not disadvantaged at all.

PrinzMegaherz

January 3rd, 2005, 04:39 PM

Imho drain should increase the magic resistance of your troops and have an disease-like effect on magical beings. In a land without magic, there is nothing to keep them going. Maybe one could make this an Ulm special dominion, much like the killer dominions of Ermor and CW

I know I've said that before, but this seems like a good place to repeat this ;-)

CUnknown

January 3rd, 2005, 06:13 PM

Hey Huzurdaddi! We're not making special pretenders to win on a small map. We're playing standard mid-size map pretenders.

And I have a chance to win every game, and not just on turn 8-9.

Huzurdaddi

January 3rd, 2005, 06:52 PM

Hey Huzurdaddi! We're not making special pretenders to win on a small map. We're playing standard mid-size map pretenders.

And I have a chance to win every game, and not just on turn 8-9.

Doh my bad then. If you are going for mid game power then I expect to see Ghost Kings. Let he who can construct the best ghost king win!

You could have human pretenders on each side. This would make the national troops more of a factor. Or you could specify immobile pretender ( and when I say immobile I mean the sphinx -- this would almost totally eliminate the pretender from the game ).

Oh and while you were specifying which nations were allowed and not allowed I see that you did not mention Jotunheim. Those giants like to crush humans in cans.

CUnknown

January 3rd, 2005, 07:53 PM

I'm not that scared of Jotunheim, but they would be a little tough maybe, yeah.

We're not playing with any special pretender rules.

PvK

January 3rd, 2005, 08:52 PM

My thoughts:

* I don't think Ulm needs even better armor
* I don't think standard Ulm needs a random pick. It changes Ulm's flavor and removes the strongest advantage of IF Ulm over standard Ulm.
* I don't think strat-move-2 heavy infantry for Ulm makes sense, unless maybe you add a lighter infantry type, or give it only to the chainmail/shieldless types.
* I don't think arbalests should be changed to firing every 2 turns. They are good enough as is, and I don't agree a stronger person can reload an arbalest faster - generally the heaviest crossbows required a device which removed the role of strength.

* I would like to know what regular heavy infantry someone considers superior to Ulm's, taking into account gold cost.
* What gets developed in "5 to 10 turns" that supposedly removes Ulm's early-game advantage in troops?

* +1 strength seems thematic with Ulmites' large size and use of heavy equipment.

* I do like the idea of adding MR to Ulm.
* I would like to see Drain scale add +1 MR per level, and maybe +1 morale/level to Ulm. Can't mod those, though.

I would like to see Ghoul Guardians improved by, adding Full Plate of Ulm (and resource cost to match), and perhaps increasing MR and dropping gold cost and/or making the sacred.

Iron Faith I would like to have a Black Templar Commander unit.

PvK

Tuidjy

January 3rd, 2005, 11:31 PM

PvK, the real issue is whether Ulm needs boosting or not. I may agree with you
that Ulm does not need even better armour, or that the random elemental makes
Iron Faith more or less pointless. The reason I am pushing for changes is that
I believe that Ulm, as it is, is simply horribly underpowered. This is why I
am playing the three games against CUnknown - if Ulm cannot win one on one,
on a small map where the enemy capital is known, under conditions tailored to
favor Ulm, there is something wrong with the race.

To answer your question - what gets developped in 5-10 turns that removes
Ulm's advantages in troops? My Caelum will have Alteration II at the end of
turn 2, Construstion II when the tenth water gem rolls in, and will go for
Evocation... That's a buffed pretender, clamming and hastened lightning
casters. Now, I agree that Caelum is an exception, but Pythium, C'tis,
and Arco are not far behind.

By the way, the first game - Ulm vs Pythium - in on. Yes, I am fielding a
Ghost King - my standard MP pretender.

And finally, while the heaviest crossbows indeed use winches or levers to
makes reloading easier, these devices do not make strength irrelevant, but
rather amplify it. Thus, a stronger person will have an easier time. I
imagine arbalests simply as crossbows that are a bit bigger and stiffer -
built to a scale suited for the stronger Ulmians.

Endoperez

January 4th, 2005, 12:42 PM

PvK said:
My thoughts:

* I don't think Ulm needs even better armor
* I don't think standard Ulm needs a random pick. It changes Ulm's flavor and removes the strongest advantage of IF Ulm over standard Ulm.

I am on the same boat with you. Ulm's armors are already one of the best, but don't seem to help much. I don't see water and/or air fitting with Ulm, much less any sorceries. And third pick of water would make them quite different, also... Maybe E2D2 for the Smiths? Also, what do you think about IF's Black Priests, should they get another (non-random) pick?

* I don't think strat-move-2 heavy infantry for Ulm makes sense, unless maybe you add a lighter infantry type, or give it only to the chainmail/shieldless types.

I could see it with their crossbowmen as well. Faster (map-move wise) units would help Ulm much.
That idea about only shieldless units getting the move bonus is interesting. Did you read Arralen's post about differences of Chain and Plate armors? That explains quite nicely why he did most of the changed he did.

* I don't think arbalests should be changed to firing every 2 turns. They are good enough as is, and I don't agree a stronger person can reload an arbalest faster - generally the heaviest crossbows required a device which removed the role of strength.

I don't have idea about arbalets' power, because I play only SP and in there I prefer Sappers for their map move of 2, but I don't see stronger person reloading them more quickly either. Maybe their precision should be increased, I believe crowssbowmen would aim better than most other archers...

* I would like to know what regular heavy infantry someone considers superior to Ulm's, taking into account gold cost.

I am not sure about the cost, but Caelum's Temple Guards were quite awesome in Dominions:PPP when they weren't limited to citadel... They have protection of 24 in Cold 3, low encumberance and good skills, and are sacred to boot! Back then blessing was just straight Str/Att/Mrl bonus, undepended on pretender. I still have to try out high Water/med Earth blessing with Caelum, but it could work...

I think part of the problem is, however, that Heavy Infatry is thought to be quite useless.

* +1 strength seems thematic with Ulmites' large size and use of heavy equipment.
* I do like the idea of adding MR to Ulm.
* I would like to see Drain scale add +1 MR per level, and maybe +1 morale/level to Ulm. Can't mod those, though.

I agree to almost everything here, except the morale bonus for drain. Maybe +1 bonus at Drain-2, but not per scale. That would give all Ulmish units +4 to morale in friendly dominion!

I would like to see Ghoul Guardians improved by adding Full Plate of Ulm (and resource cost to match), and perhaps increasing MR and dropping gold cost and/or making the sacred.

One improvement ordered!
Code:<hr /><pre>
#modname "Improved Ghoul Guardian"
By Endoperez
#description "Simple enough to save into any .dm file and enable."
-- Ghoul Guardian is given the armor of Guardian he was and cost changed: 20->17 gp, 31 -> 35 res.
-- Magic resistance changed to 11, to protect them from banishment.

#selectmonster 1020
#gcost 17
#rcost 35
#mr 11
#armor "Full Plate of Ulm"
#armor "Full Helmet"
#end
</pre><hr />

I added that to my Ulm Upgrade, also.

Iron Faith I would like to have a Black Templar Commander unit.

Already done. Check my Version of the Ulm Upgrade mod. I added the new mod with Ghoul Guardian improvements to this post. EDIT: it had a bug. Fixed.

Sandman

January 4th, 2005, 04:59 PM

Ulm suggestions:

Better Guardians: For a capital-only unit of a military-focused nation, Guardians are somewhat limited. I suggest reducing their cost to 18 gold and giving them better equipment, not just stuff on the same level as the rest of the Ulmish troops. "Great Halberd of Ulm", maybe? Length 5, attack 1, def 1 and damage 10. And a siege bonus of 2. Obviously, this better weapon would cost more in resources, but that's no big deal for Ulm.

Better Smiths: Everyone in this thread seems to want to beef up the Master Smiths with randoms and stuff. A much more elegant solution, IMO, is to have a capital-only class of Grand Master Smiths with the inevitable 3E2F1?. This is roughly in line with other nations, and, whilst it is contrary to Ulmish flavour, it is much neater than messing with the already perfectly-formed Master Smiths.

It also makes Ulm a fearsome nation.

PrinzMegaherz

January 4th, 2005, 05:27 PM

Just call those Master Smiths and rename the old ones Apprentices

PvK

January 4th, 2005, 08:43 PM

Tuidjy said:
PvK, the real issue is whether Ulm needs boosting or not. I may agree with you
that Ulm does not need even better armour, or that the random elemental makes
Iron Faith more or less pointless. The reason I am pushing for changes is that
I believe that Ulm, as it is, is simply horribly underpowered. This is why I
am playing the three games against CUnknown - if Ulm cannot win one on one,
on a small map where the enemy capital is known, under conditions tailored to
favor Ulm, there is something wrong with the race.

Ok, but suppose one simply added MR and perhaps a little morale to all Ulm national units - would there not be a point where that alone would make you think Ulm wasn't underpowered?

That is, I might agree Ulm is at a disadvantage once other nations have deployed powerful magic, if Ulm fails to develop other magic itself (such as from independant mages). However I'd first try approaches which try to stay closest to what I see as Ulm's theme, which is anti-magic rather than more magic, and the game data's other thematic parameters.

PvK

PvK

January 4th, 2005, 09:12 PM

Endoperez said:
... I don't see water and/or air fitting with Ulm, much less any sorceries. And third pick of water would make them quite different, also... Maybe E2D2 for the Smiths? Also, what do you think about IF's Black Priests, should they get another (non-random) pick?

An E2D2 Smith... sounds good for a Diabolical Ulm theme mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Adding another magic level to Black Priests would certainly be a strong plus for them. I'm not sure they "should", but if one is convinced IF needs a boost, making them E2?1, E1F1?1, or even E2F1?1 would seem ok to me, or even offering several or all varieties at a range of costs.

* I don't think strat-move-2 heavy infantry for Ulm makes sense, unless maybe you add a lighter infantry type, or give it only to the chainmail/shieldless types.

I could see it with their crossbowmen as well.

I agree.

Faster (map-move wise) units would help Ulm much.

Yes, and they do when I play them - I use both national troops and independents, to complement each other in various ways. For move-2 armies, for light archers to safely support the heavy infantry, etc.

That idea about only shieldless units getting the move bonus is interesting. Did you read Arralen's post about differences of Chain and Plate armors? That explains quite nicely why he did most of the changed he did.

No I hadn't - let's see... ah ok. Yes, that's an interesting post. If reinterpreting the way armor values are assessed, though, I'd want to see similar adjustments for everyone, not just Ulm, which is of course a big task.

Again though, I don't see a need for Ulm to have better armor than they already have. Ulm HI can be quite strong when it ends up in the right conditions, meaning ample numbers, supporting troops, etc. I don't see it needing to be better at what it already does well.

I am not sure about the cost, but Caelum's Temple Guards were quite awesome in Dominions:PPP when they weren't limited to citadel... They have protection of 24 in Cold 3, low encumberance and good skills, and are sacred to boot! Back then blessing was just straight Str/Att/Mrl bonus, undepended on pretender. I still have to try out high Water/med Earth blessing with Caelum, but it could work...

Ok, though those are blessed troops, and not as easy to produce as Ulm infantry. I wonder what blessing they require to be able to defeat a large block of Ulm HI of the same gold cost.

I think part of the problem is, however, that Heavy Infatry is thought to be quite useless.

Call me Ulmish, but that seems incorrect to me.

* +1 strength seems thematic with Ulmites' large size and use of heavy equipment.
* I do like the idea of adding MR to Ulm.
* I would like to see Drain scale add +1 MR per level, and maybe +1 morale/level to Ulm. Can't mod those, though.

I agree to almost everything here, except the morale bonus for drain. Maybe +1 bonus at Drain-2, but not per scale. That would give all Ulmish units +4 to morale in friendly dominion!

Well I was thinking that some people think Ulm is seriously disadvantaged, and that a frequent complaint is low morale, so it would be a thematic way to address those issues.

I would like to see Ghoul Guardians improved by adding Full Plate of Ulm (and resource cost to match), and perhaps increasing MR and dropping gold cost and/or making the sacred.

One improvement ordered!
Code:<hr /><pre>
#modname "Improved Ghoul Guardian"
By Endoperez
#description "Simple enough to save into any .dm file and enable."
-- Ghoul Guardian is given the armor of Guardian he was and cost changed: 20->17 gp, 31 -> 35 res.
-- Magic resistance changed to 11, to protect them from banishment.

#selectmonster 1020
#gcost 17
#rcost 35
#mr 11
#armor "Full Plate of Ulm"
#armor "Full Helmet"
#end
</pre><hr />
I added that to my Ulm Upgrade, also.

Cool, thanks!

Iron Faith I would like to have a Black Templar Commander unit.

Already done. Check my Version of the Ulm Upgrade mod. I added the new mod with Ghoul Guardian improvements to this post. EDIT: it had a bug. Fixed.

Ok, I will have to check that out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PvK

Cainehill

January 5th, 2005, 12:25 AM

Sandman said:
Ulm suggestions:

Better Guardians: For a capital-only unit of a military-focused nation, Guardians are somewhat limited. I suggest reducing their cost to 18 gold and giving them better equipment, not just stuff on the same level as the rest of the Ulmish troops. "Great Halberd of Ulm", maybe? Length 5, attack 1, def 1 and damage 10. And a siege bonus of 2. Obviously, this better weapon would cost more in resources, but that's no big deal for Ulm.

Thinking about Ulm's capitol only units vice other nation's capitol onlys, something like this makes sense: other nations want to export their capitol only troops, which hardly seems worthwhile with Ulm.

Better Smiths: Everyone in this thread seems to want to beef up the Master Smiths with randoms and stuff. A much more elegant solution, IMO, is to have a capital-only class of Grand Master Smiths with the inevitable 3E2F1?. This is roughly in line with other nations, and, whilst it is contrary to Ulmish flavour, it is much neater than messing with the already perfectly-formed Master Smiths.

3E2F1????? That would be better than some nations that are considered average to good in magic. Adding one random elemental would make Ulm's smiths quite worthy in and of itself. What you suggest is a .... forging menace, not to mention a very potent battlefield caster - better than most, given access to blade wind without _any_ bonuses, and also Falling Fires, Magma Bolts, etc, with either conjuration 3, a booster, or a random. Frankly, 3E2F by itself would be more potent on the battlefield than most mages, given the synchonicities between earth and fire, and you think it should have a random as well?

*shudder*

Minus the random, I think that might be okay for a new nation, or an Ulmish theme that drastically diminished the advantages (armor, drain, forging) that Ulm currently has - earth and fire together are very potent.

An example of why I think the random would be way too overpowered: 3E2F1? : a single starshine skullcap, an astral random could crank out crystal coins and starshine skullcaps. Empower once for 30 astral, you can forge rings of sorcery. Then rings of wizardry. Then a blood random can make earth blood stones, and basically all the blood items, etc.

And if it was an elemental only random, then you have the first national mage capable of E4, and also tying with Abysia and Marignon for F3 mages, incredibly easy to use national mages for Earth kings and also kings of elemental fire, almost unlimitted Earth Elemental Attacks, cheap blade winds, magma eruptions, etc. It just keeps getting worse and worse.

Graeme Dice

January 5th, 2005, 01:45 AM

I think all I'd really like to see with Ulm is the master smith's boosted to E3F1, since that gives them everything they need to deal with most of the situations out there.

Cainehill

January 5th, 2005, 03:04 AM

E3F1, or E2F2, or E2F1 and 1 elemental would also be fine, imo - your E3F1 might be a little overpowered, since every national mage could do bladewind and whatnot.

After all the discussion, I'm leaning a bit towards E2F1 with 1 random, preferably elemental - it keeps the flavor, would give 1/4 of them some significant usefulness (the E3 ones) and a little bit of randomness, and another 1/4 would also be very useful with F2. (With conj-3, earth 2 and/or fire 2 gets boosted by one; an F2 could do phoenix pyre and summon earth power, among other nifty / nasty things.)

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 08:13 AM

Cainehill said:

E3F1, or E2F2, or E2F1 and 1 elemental would also be fine, imo - your E3F1 might be a little overpowered, since every national mage could do bladewind and whatnot.

As you said later yourself every mastersmith can do summon EP . Then even every unmodded mastersmith can do bladewind + magma eruption .

But forgingwise E3 or 1 elemental random would be maybe too good for ulm .
Both eleminate the need to forge boots of earth first before starting dwarfen hammer production .
With 1 elemental random ulm would out of a sudden be a top clamforger .

Hard to improve them without making them instantly a top 5 nation .

Most weak considered themes/nations though have no randoms :
- Ulm base
- RotR
- Pan new age
- Vanheim helheim
(- Mictlan )

Tuna-Fish

January 5th, 2005, 08:43 AM

Also note that e3 gives very easy access to cheap petrify, one of the best anti-sc spells out there. (quaranteed paralyse) Then again, that might just do it for ulm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Sandman

January 5th, 2005, 11:58 AM

3E2F1?????

I did say it was fearsome. Bear in mind that this mega-smith would NOT be sacred, unlike most top-tier mages, and would be expensive to upkeep.

Even so, I have to agree that it would probably be overpowered, with all the mad forging opportunities.

Alternative Ulm magic ideas:

Apprentice Smiths: A new, low-tier caster for Ulm. One pick in Earth, as well as drain-immunity and the forging bonus. Should probably cost about 70 gold. The inclusion of this unit would enhance Ulm's magical abilities by providing a more efficient researcher and low-level forger, freeing up Master Smiths for more important duties. The apprentice wouldn't be particularly useful on the battlefield. You could get him up to Earth-3 with Earth boots and Earth Power, which might be worth it, although Master Smiths are probably a better choice to give items to.

Alchemists: Ulm has an alchemist pretender, so why not give them regular alchemists, with one earth, one fire and one astral? At a reasonable cost. No forge bonus or drain-immunity for them, of course. But even so, that single astral pick would give them a smattering of new strategies to pursue, most notably crystal matrixes. The 50% bonus to alchemy would be handy as well; possibly TOO handy.

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 01:26 PM

Sandman said:
Alternative Ulm magic ideas:

I agree too that a 2nd weak mage would be nice for ulm imo .

An Earth 1 apprentice could though forge nothing useful expect boots of earth with a pair of boots of earth on him . So without forge of ancients up he would be only useful as researcher probably .
As you said making him able to cast blade wind on the battlefield is not worthy it as well because every normal ulm smith can do this without empowering and additionaly can do magma eruption as well .

The alchemist is not a bad idea imo . For the purpose of alchemizing you need only 1 alchemist though .
Earth + fire magic lvl 1 you don't need also because you have this on your mastersmiths .
So once you find sages or similiar the alchemist becomes obsolete unfortunately probably as well .
Finally i think it is not possible to give units alchemy bonus by modding commands .

Maybe ulm should get a 2nd mage like a sage with 1 random , could be fully random or a sorcery random or an elemental random .
Ulm as a good research nation is wrong though imo as well .

Ulms main problem is probably that it has nothing against Airnations . At least nothing half cost effective .

Giving ulms smiths though 1 random makes them too powerful because of their cheap forging .

Giving them only 1 higher earth or fire magic is problematic as well , especially the earth magic .
Giving them any other additional magic is unthematic as well .

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 01:35 PM

What about giving them a 2nd mage with 2 randoms , but no good research , no forgeboni , no good stats , no drainimmunity ?
Price 90-120 gold , not sacred .

They can be considered to be bought but are mainly only useful for some forging + some lowlvl summoning + some sitesearching .

On the other hand a spectre is exactly that anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

So the only thing to improve them without changing the master smiths or adding a 2nd mage would be to make ulms troops really the best in the game .

One approach would be to give them non-capitol only blessable troops .
Another would be to make 1 or 2 elite warriors which are very expensive resourcewise , but equipped with e.g. rainbow armors or anything similiar to make them a bit tougher against the powerful airspells .

PrinzMegaherz

January 5th, 2005, 01:42 PM

I think the 2E1F1R Smith is the only logical solution to make Ulm's theme as a forging nation valid.
As it has been pointed out before, Ulm is supposed to forge lots of items, but seriously, without at least one random there isn't much worth forging.
Or, if 2E1F1R is supposed to be too strong, why not 2E1R?

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 01:45 PM

PrinzMegaherz said:
I think the 2E1F1R Smith is the only logical solution to make Ulm's theme as a forging nation valid.
As it has been pointed out before, Ulm is supposed to forge lots of items, but seriously, without at least one random there isn't much worth forging.
Or, if 2E1F1R is supposed to be too strong, why not 2E1R?

If you make the ulm master smiths stronger though you make Iron faith completely undesireable .

SurvivalistMerc

January 5th, 2005, 02:25 PM

I could find myself warming to two different master smiths...one with 2E1F and one with 2E1R (and maybe making it a random elemental path). Especially if the ones with random were capital-only.

It is encouraging to see folks try to beef up ulm a bit for multiplayer. I see many situations in which defense ends up being more important that sheer protection which is Ulm's forte.

The amount of forging that can be done without the independent magi is quite limited. And empowerment is extremely expensive. (It would be nice if you could empower for forging purposes (and site searching purposes) only for a lesser cost and not be able to use the path for ritual spells or in combat...this would be more thematic for ulm. Powerful forged items but weak battle magic and limited summons.)

I am still amazed that folks have suggested 3E2F1R. That would arguably make ulm the most powerful nation in the game.

Ulm would really benefit from a random elemental magic, especially air, for eyes of aiming on the smiths without having to put air magic on the pretender or get extremely lucky with magic sites.

Interesting discussion. I agree that ulm needs better capital-only troops...perhaps something nice with a strat move of 2 whether or not it is blessable.

Huzurdaddi

January 5th, 2005, 02:48 PM

If you make the ulm master smiths stronger though you make Iron faith completely undesireable .

Fix Iron faith after you fix Ulm. Iron faith is pathetically weak anyway.

2E1F1R ( elemental ) seems to be a fine fix. However their cost should be bumped slighty.

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 04:12 PM

SurvivalistMerc said:
The amount of forging that can be done without the independent magi is quite limited. And empowerment is extremely expensive. (It would be nice if you could empower for forging purposes (and site searching purposes) only for a lesser cost and not be able to use the path for ritual spells or in combat...this would be more thematic for ulm. Powerful forged items but weak battle magic and limited summons.)

The problem is that forging wise even with base ulm already a lot can be done , especially in lategame .

Ulm can sell dwarfen hammers for blood or hunt itself .
Then empower smiths in blood which is "quite" cheap .

Then you can forge bloodstones at greater discount than anyone and soul contracts and hellswords/blood thorns/armor of souls .

Other empowering is of course too expensive . But a random elemental leads to a big number of W smiths and smiths clamhoarding is athematic . Ulm would become probably the best clamhoarder then .

PrinzMegaherz

January 5th, 2005, 06:16 PM

Another Idea that would make Ulm something special...
What about giving the smiths higher paths, but take their abilitiy to cast spells. They would be "Forge only" mages, unrivaled in producing things (with maybe 2 in each kind of magic), but useless on the battlefield.

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 06:45 PM

PvK

January 5th, 2005, 07:27 PM

I still wonder how much of this is from the perspective of having tried really hard to figure out how to make Ulm work in practice, or is from the perspective of having played other nations but not really tried to make Ulm work. Most of the magic improvements mentioned seem to be things which can be done already (via 5-gem Earth Boots, Hammer o the Forge Lord, empowerment, pretender magic, independent mages, etc), but are just harder than being given the ability from the start.

I'm still thinking adding MR, +1 Strength and maybe a little morale to the standard troops would go a long way without needing to add something counter-thematic like more magic.

Other brainstorm ideas:

* Units just get +1 Strength, but Ulm gets a national holy spell which adds MR.

* Ulm gets an optional dominion which actually reduces the magic power of enemy casters... I guess that would mess up spell scripts in too annoying a fashion, though.

PvK

alexti

January 5th, 2005, 09:26 PM

Zen

January 5th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Possibility could be to change Iron Will to a Nation Specific Spell for Ulm, Change the cost from 1E to 1H (or 2H) and then it would bridge the gap somewhat, however, the AoE on Iron Will is pretty unspectacular (and no way to mod it) however, this would make me sad since I wouldn't be able to use Earth to cover the MR gap for other nations.

To each their own.

I've gone both ways on my feelings of Ulm. I've played it to death and I really enjoy certain aspects, however, it's crippling aspects, requirement to cover your nation's weaknesses with pretender/non-national mages and the speed at which their units become less viable (Abysia/Jotun/Pangaea on the other hand have more long term viability of their troops, as well as blessables, which base Ulm lacks) makes me shie away from base Ulm in lieu of other similar nations (Vanheim for Earth love, Abysia for armored unit love).

Boron

January 5th, 2005, 10:21 PM

alexti said:

PrinzMegaherz said:
Another Idea that would make Ulm something special...
What about giving the smiths higher paths, but take their abilitiy to cast spells. They would be "Forge only" mages, unrivaled in producing things (with maybe 2 in each kind of magic), but useless on the battlefield.

Maybe leave master smiths as they are, but add a new capital only unit - Crippled Grand Master Smith - with strategic movement 0 and right kind of afflictions (chest would, probably blindness etc) and with 2E2F1R (or maybe with 3E1F1R). They will be good for forging and decent for research, but not for the battles.

Hey thats a good idea .
No need to give them wounds , no need to give them strategic move 0 . Just giving them the immobile ability makes them unable to move like the sphinx .
Then they could be only used for capitol defence + forging + summoning .

This approach could be used for pangenea also , immobile old treemen ultramages for forging + summoning + researching and this way improving them a bit as well .

Graeme Dice

January 6th, 2005, 01:57 AM

Boron said:
But forgingwise E3 or 1 elemental random would be maybe too good for ulm .

Vanheim's Dwarves are E3?1, and nobody seems to complain about those too much. Really, Ulm needs a lot of help. I'd probably also give Black Lords 50% resist all elements as well, so that you can slap an elemental armour on them and go to town against SCs. That way people wouldn't be able to ignore the heavy armour so easily.

Graeme Dice

January 6th, 2005, 02:09 AM

Boron said:
I am still against giving them E3 or any random .
If they can get E3 their combat abilities would be really greatly enchanced :

That's the point. It gives them petrify.

Zen

January 6th, 2005, 05:41 AM

My first gut instinct was to give the Black Lords +50% Resists, but only because the nerf to EA really impacted me playing Ulm effectively (no more thugs). I have wavered as of now between giving them 25% resists or perhaps enough of a MR bonus that you have to equip yourself to your resistances and not get paralyze/enslaved easily.

Sandman

January 6th, 2005, 05:53 AM

Boron said:
The alchemist is not a bad idea imo . For the purpose of alchemizing you need only 1 alchemist though .
Earth + fire magic lvl 1 you don't need also because you have this on your mastersmiths .
So once you find sages or similiar the alchemist becomes obsolete unfortunately probably as well .
Finally i think it is not possible to give units alchemy bonus by modding commands .

The alchemist is already in the game, he's a rare indy mage. Costs about 300 gold, though.

Endoperez

January 6th, 2005, 09:27 AM

Okay, I took a break from forum at the wrong time. Back up there, I had written E2D2 when I had meant to write E2F2... :ashamed:

Lots of people here seem to want a random for Master Smiths. However, that would give Ulm very different feel. That one random in eg. Water or Air does not allow them to forge the more powerful items, "only" things like Boots of Flying, Water Bracelet, resistance items and weapons... but it allows them to search for sites! Ulm can empower and then cheaply make booster items. 75 gems for access to 10 gem, at maximum!, Air boosters is not as bad as it sounds. 4 boosters are 115 for Ulm, 80 for Air nations without Dwarven Hammers, and if those nations have Dwarven Hammers they had to trade for it. Which gives Ulm Air gems...

Also, Ulm's mages have only E2. However, each one of them can forge Earth Boots and cast Earth Power. With Dwarven Hammer, Ulmish smiths can make Earth Boots for 5 gems. 5 Gems and 20-something fatique for E4? If they had a chance for E4, as with all E3FxR suggestions, they would have a chance for E6, or E5 for rituals like Forge of the Ancients.

I am not very good at balancing and can't say if that is too much or too little, I am just stating that even an elemental random will make Ulm very different and give them many, many more options.

Boron

January 6th, 2005, 09:48 AM

Graeme Dice said:

Boron said:
But forgingwise E3 or 1 elemental random would be maybe too good for ulm .

Vanheim's Dwarves are E3?1, and nobody seems to complain about those too much. Really, Ulm needs a lot of help. I'd probably also give Black Lords 50% resist all elements as well, so that you can slap an elemental armour on them and go to town against SCs. That way people wouldn't be able to ignore the heavy armour so easily.

Yeah but the vanheim smiths have no forgebonus and they are capitol only !

I share your idea with black lords .
I suggested earlier to give the black knights 50% SR as well to make them endure 2-4 hits by lightning rather then 1-2 .

If you give the black lords 50% elemental resistence from start but don't change their bad MR that would be probably a nice idea . They would be like mechanical men then , killable with mr-negates spells but otherwise really hard to kill .

So new changes :
-black knights have 50% SR
-black lords have 50% elemental resistence
-master smiths cost 150 gold but have E2F1N1 magic

What do you think ?

Giving them E3 would be unfair because the only 2 nations that have that are vanheim and pangenea .
Vanheim i made my reasons above and pangeneas pans are so expensive that you can't field many .

Endoperez

January 6th, 2005, 10:02 AM

I still think elemental resistance is very unthematic, but I can't understand why you are adding nature. I thought you were thinking of Rod of Iron/ Elemental Armor, not Resist Elements...

And having both Fire and Nature gives Ulm access to Fever Fetishes, with Forge bonus, with non-restricted, cheap mages. Maybe not the best possible idea, even if they don't start with any income in either.

Boron

January 6th, 2005, 10:42 AM

Endoperez said:
I still think elemental resistance is very unthematic, but I can't understand why you are adding nature. I thought you were thinking of Rod of Iron/ Elemental Armor, not Resist Elements...

And having both Fire and Nature gives Ulm access to Fever Fetishes, with Forge bonus, with non-restricted, cheap mages. Maybe not the best possible idea, even if they don't start with any income in either.

Oh i really forgot the fever fetishes .
The reasons for nature i listed in a former post already though :
- supply items
- Better aiming with eagle eye
- Some other smaller buffs , or some swarmers with swarm

PrinzMegaherz

January 6th, 2005, 11:02 AM

I still think elemental resistance is very unthematic

I think black steel armor should have some small resistance (maybe 25 percent) by default, not only for Ulm, but in general.
Has anyone ever forged the black steel armor for 10 earth gems? It is very bad compared to the armors of other kinds of magic, and it is even worse for ulm as it's only advantage is +1 protection compared to a black knights normal armor. 10 gems for +1 protection? No thanks, but then again, there is no other armor Ulm could forge with its current picks.

Elemental protection is nothing unfitting for earth.
Earth can't burn, and it can't conduct electricity. Maybe one could argue about water...

Endoperez

January 6th, 2005, 03:19 PM

I have updated my Ulm Upgrade mod. Fixed some bugs, added Warlord graphics (Zweihander+cloak) and added Reinvigoration for Warlord. Also changed some descriptions, but those were slight.

I added #Version tag, and the Version is 0.85.

Taqwus

January 6th, 2005, 03:58 PM

Hm, steel's metal. I was under the impression that metals tend not to be good electrical insulators.

However, it might not be unreasonable for black steel to be perhaps slightly fire resistant (perhaps only Ulm knows how to work with such a metal if so), or very strong for the weight and bulk (perhaps less encumberance, less reduction in AP and defense?) or harder to penetrate (perhaps AP effects reduced).

Perhaps the forgeable black steel items could also be forgeable by Ulm only. 2E mages aren't exactly confined to Ulm right now.

PrinzMegaherz

January 6th, 2005, 04:56 PM

Hm, steel's metal. I was under the impression that metals tend not to be good electrical insulators.

But it's not plain steel!
It's the famous ulmish black steel(TM) that utilisez so much arcane knowledge in its forging you actually have to pay 10 earth gems to your local master smith to get your own copy of black steel armor

Sandman

January 6th, 2005, 05:01 PM

I can't say that the idea of shock resistance on Ulmish soldiers really appeals. Lightning is effective against most national troops; it's hardly a distinctively Ulmish problem.

If lightning resistance is desperately required, why not make an earth spell that grants it to a small number of troops? Although... that would probably help Vanheim more, with their air mages and dwarves. So, make it a 1-earth spell that only affects one square at a time, which puts it firmly in Ulm's territory.

Combined with my suggestion for a 1-earth apprentice smith, that would really help Ulm at fighting air nations.

And another idea: what about giving Ulm assassins? It may not be thematic, but it would certainly tie in with their forging ability.

Tuidjy

January 6th, 2005, 09:49 PM

> So, make it a 1-earth spell that only affects one square at a time,

One square at the time... This is so great! This way, all you need to protect
twenty black knights is a measily ten smiths... Well more like fifteen, and then
you would have to get really creative while positioning them.

Anyway, hurray, Ulm is saved!

> which puts it firmly in Ulm's territory.

I understand how one may think so: the spell seems to suck to the point of
beign useless, which would firmly put it into Ulm's territory. But one would
be mistaken. This would be quite an useful spell for a SC that lacks air magic.
Being a new spell, it may even stack with items like the Scutata Volturus. The
only problem is that takes it out of Ulm's territory - not only because it does
not suck, but also because Ulm can't get any SCs worth mentioning.

Graeme Dice

January 7th, 2005, 02:15 AM

PrinzMegaherz said:
Has anyone ever forged the black steel armor for 10 earth gems?

I do in the second turn for undead pretenders with Ulm. Other than that I don't tend to use it.

Tuidjy

January 7th, 2005, 03:30 AM

>> Has anyone ever forged the black steel armor for 10 earth gems?

> I do in the second turn for undead pretenders with Ulm. Other than
> that I don't tend to use it.

I am not sure you are doing your pretenders a favor, unless they
have life drain. A Ghost King who casts five buffs is pretty much
a given with Ulm, and I think that he is much better off without
the armour, what with the -5 to defense and the 50 points of
additional fatigue it brings.

A Vampire queen may benefit from the armour, but after the nerf, she
is not worth fielding.

Ivan Pedroso

January 7th, 2005, 03:54 AM

PrinzMegaherz said:
Another Idea that would make Ulm something special...
What about giving the smiths higher paths, but take their abilitiy to cast spells. They would be "Forge only" mages, unrivaled in producing things (with maybe 2 in each kind of magic), but useless on the battlefield.

This solution didn't seem to get much attention. It got me thinking: "Is it possible to cripple a mage in such a way that he/she would be useless in a battle - i.e. making him/her a forger-only mage".

My idea:
Lord of the Forge (or some other name)
(Capital only or not - dunno)
paths: 2E1F1? (elemental random)
stats as the regular Master Smith but with some/all of these changes:
Precision: say 5 or lower (zero perhaps ?!?)
MR: again low
Research "bonus": -3 (or some other fitting number)
Price: somewhat lower than his paths would suggest.

The effects and the fantasy-logic behind it could/would be:

Low precision: with these randoms the only 100 precision spells available would be frozen heart and incinerate(with phoenix power), all other spells would fly all over the place. The fantasy logic behind it could be that this smith is so focussed on forging the tiny nitty-gritty details of magical items that he is somewhat near-sighted, or have blood shot watering eyes due to the heat/flames that he's always around ?

Low MR: would make him susceptible to all sorts of spells. Perhaps his excellence at forging is caused by a natural susceptibility to magic ?

Research penalty: this could be used to justify a low gold price, and it would ensure that his role as a forger is fixed. The logic behind this could be that he's a specialized forger and not a scholar.

I'm not sure that it would make Ulm much stronger, but if he's cheap it would at least give Ulm some extra options and still be in line with the flavour of the nation - and extra options would be a strength ?

Cainehill

January 7th, 2005, 12:16 PM

Taqwus said:
However, it might not be unreasonable for black steel to be perhaps slightly fire resistant (perhaps only Ulm knows how to work with such a metal if so), or very strong for the weight and bulk (perhaps less encumberance, less reduction in AP and defense?) or harder to penetrate (perhaps AP effects reduced).

Given that metal also conducts heat and cold very well, I'm not sure that any elemental resistance on it would be appropriate (armies baked in their armor, and they froze in it too). On the other paw, reduced encumbrance and whatnot would be appropriate, for all Ulm's Black Plate troops.

Reducing the encumbrance on that stuff would go a long way towards making Ulm's troops more useful; given the superior metalworking Ulm is considered to have, and the extra strength of the soldiers, they perhaps shouldn't get exhausted so soon.

Cainehill

January 7th, 2005, 12:22 PM

Tuidjy said:
>> Has anyone ever forged the black steel armor for 10 earth gems?

> I do in the second turn for undead pretenders with Ulm.
> Other than that I don't tend to use it.

I am not sure you are doing your pretenders a favor, unless they have life drain. A Ghost King who casts five buffs is pretty much a given with Ulm, and I think that he is much better off without the armour, what with the -5 to defense and the 50 points of additional fatigue it brings.

A Vampire queen may benefit from the armour, but after the nerf, she is not worth fielding.

On the 2nd turn, Ulm isn't going to have nearly enough research to allow that GK to cast five buffs. But slapping the black steel armor on can allow the GK, the PoD, and the VQ to start expanding on turn 2, or even one of the liches. After you have some alteration and enchantment researched, then you take the armor off, and hopefully the PoD hasn't gotten any bad afflictions before then. (Ditto the GK, but his etherealness makes it less likely.)

PrinzMegaherz

January 7th, 2005, 12:44 PM

My vision of Ulm:

Apprentice Smith
2E

Only a few people of ulm are gifted with magic powers. Those few are sent on a journey to learn the ways of the smithy, traveling with the ulmish legions of steel and searching for places of arcane knowledge.
While they have a long way to go before they can forge items as skillfully as their teachers, they are already immune to drain and have mastered the basics of earth magic.

Master Smith
3E2A2F
Immobile
When the time has come for the apprentice to return to the forges of their origin, they are awarded the title of a Master Smith, those who are capable to bind the elements to their steel. This power comes to a price, however. The master smiths are not allowed to leave their forges, so that the magic will be kept away from the pure land of ulm. While some might not accept this fade, most Smiths embrace their destiny, forging the best equipment for their friends with which they once traveled together.

Hero:
the Legate
2E1F
100% Resistance against everything
no body and hand slots
Might be an assassin
Those smiths who refuse to return to the forges of Ulm are called the exiles, or the fallen. They are sworn enemies of Ulm, and must be eliminated at all cost. If one is found, the council of master smith sends one of their own to return the fallen apprentice, dead or alive. The chosen one is then transformed into a being of pure steel, a man golem who is immun to all magic. He won't rest until the enemies of Ulm are defeated.

Special:
The forges

The laboratories of Ulm are, unlike those of the other nations, no places of contemplation and studying, but rather busy places of apprentices being trained and lots of military equipment being produced.

A mage doing research in an ulmish forge will have his research skill lowered by one. In exchange, each ulmish forge produces one earth gem each turn.

new neutral placement:
Exile conclave

This is a place where those fleeing from the wrath of Ulm have gathered. The original master smith 2E1F (now called Fallen Smith) is recruitable here as well as the rogue apprentice 2E, The master smith still has his forging bonus, but both lost their drain immunity.

I know not everything here is moddable, but this is my vision of making Ulm a nation to be reckoned with, but without loosing it's distinct feeling.
What do you think?

Graeme Dice

January 7th, 2005, 12:50 PM

Tuidjy said:
A Ghost King who casts five buffs is pretty much
a given with Ulm, and I think that he is much better off without
the armour, what with the -5 to defense and the 50 points of
additional fatigue it brings.

With a complete set of earth based trinkets, a ghost king does not need to cast any buffs, as he will have a protection of 30. Of course, you should probably add quickness and mistform, but anything else is not needed for bashing independents. One could also stick to the lighter blacksteel if you wanted, or use a PoD and put trampling boots on him.

PvK

January 7th, 2005, 03:31 PM

Oh weird, I thought Blade Wind was a national spell of Ulm, but it's not. Just Legions of Steel...

PvK

Sandman

January 7th, 2005, 06:04 PM

After some consideration, here's my Ulm. It doesn't change things that drastically, it just gives them some more magical breathing room, with more efficient research and higher MR elite units.

New unit:Apprentice Smith

A one-earth, drain-immune forger. Costs 65 gold. His intended role is primarily off the battlefield; researching and forging low-level earth items. On the battlefield, he's limited to casting light buffs and flying shards.

New starting spell:Iron Will

This is a nice spell for Ulm; accurate, useful and thematic. And of course, the apprentice smith is tailor-made for casting it.

Plus, it's from a magic school (Thaumaturgy) which isn't really high on Ulm's agenda, so giving them this will spare them some research.

New Item: Drain Stone

This low-level Earth item grants its wielder immunity to drain, like an Smith. The intended use for this item is to allow indy mages used by Ulm to research to the best of their abilities. It's essentially the same as an owl quill.

Unit Change: Better Guardians

Reduce the Guardian's cost to 18 gold, and give him a better halberd (at an increased resource cost). And MR 12. I don't see a problem thematically with giving Ulm's ultra-elite units a bit of a magical protection - they're from the heart of a land of drain, men of iron will, after all.

The regular Ulmish troops can keep their weakish MR; it creates a clearer distinction between the regular grunts and the special troops.

I'm toying with the idea of making the Guardian's weapon able to hit ethereal and/or triple damage versus magical creatures. Now that would be cool. But possibly a bit much, as well?

Unit Change: Better Black Knights

Same as the Guardians: boost their MR to 12. A society which fears magic is going to surely going to want to protect their ultra-elite units against it.

Unit Change: Better Arbalests

Just an HP increase of one, to bring them into line with other Ulmish regulars.

Site Change: Fire Gem Income

Make the Forges of Ulm give one or two fire gems as well as the earth gem income. Sure, it breaks the 'only 5 gems' rule, but so do Pythium and Mictlan.

Tuidjy

January 7th, 2005, 06:18 PM

To Cainehill and Graeme Dice:

I can see your point, and I guess your way works just as well. But I do research
Alteration 2 before I sent my GK out by himself. With every other nation, I have
Alteration 2 researched at the end of turn 2, with Ulm, it happens at the end of
turn 3. I consider a GK with Air shield, Quickness, Mirror image, Luck and Twist
far safer to use than one in full armour. I also like to let him research a
bit longer, as Ulm can certainly use it.

Sending the GK with escort is not something I like doing. The chance the escort
routes is there, mostly because the GK kills slowly, and I would much rather
gather a stronger army, and have it take provinces by itself.

... Hmm... I think I will take the ten turn challenge with Ulm.

Scott Hebert

January 7th, 2005, 07:02 PM

Perhaps it's just me, but why does everyone seem to think that Iron Faith's only advantage over base Ulm is the random pick on the Priest.

Did base Ulm get a Holy-3 Inquisitor in 2.15 and I just didn't notice?

As far as the various magic ideas are concerned, they seem a little, well, overdone. If you're going to go the 'apprentice' route, you might as well do all of it.

Apprentice Smith -- 1E
Journeyman Smith -- 2E1F
Master Smith -- 3E1F1R Capital Only

Sounds like a good place to start a 'Guild' theme for Ulm.

Endoperez

January 8th, 2005, 11:27 AM

Sandman said:
After some consideration, here's my Ulm. It doesn't change things that drastically, it just gives them some more magical breathing room, with more efficient research and higher MR elite units.

I am not sure of all your chances, see comments below.

New unit:Apprentice Smith

Why would one ever buy this? It is a bad researcher (3 points), cannot cast any useful battle spells (65 gp for 4-5 Iron Wills/battle is not useful IMO), cannot forge any useful items... Master Smiths are what Ulm has. They are cheap, and moderate researchers when one remembers that you get 120 free points from their drain immunity.

New starting spell:Iron Will

Maybe. I haven't used it much, though. Maybe both Legions of Steel and Iron Will?

New Item: Drain Stone

No! With "low Earth" this would take away Ulm's specialty, drain-immune mages - and Ulm would get nothing out of it! Ulm's Master Smiths already are immune, and Ulm would have to find independents to make this useful. Other nations, OTOH, would be able to make Drain-protected Vanir, Mystics, Sea Kings...

Unit Change: Better Guardians
I'm toying with the idea of making the Guardian's weapon able to hit ethereal and/or triple damage versus magical creatures. Now that would be cool. But possibly a bit much, as well?

I agree that some kind of a bonus would be appopriate. Just making it magic weapon able to harm ethereal opponents could do, I think, but extra damage against magical creatures would be very powerfull. I don't know if it would be too much. Is it possible to mod Moon Blade-like extra damage for magical units?

Unit Change: Better Black Knights

They already are quite good. Magic resistance increase would do, also, but much beyond that would be bad IMO.

Unit Change: Better Arbalests
Just an HP increase of one, to bring them into line with other Ulmish regulars.

This is good also. It's not much, but atleast thematic.

Site Change: Fire Gem Income
Make the Forges of Ulm give one or two fire gems as well as the earth gem income. Sure, it breaks the 'only 5 gems' rule, but so do Pythium and Mictlan.

But then, both are known for their high power in ways of magic. Ulm, the nation with as little magic as possible, with higher-than-normal magical resources? Thanks, but no thanks.

You can mod most of these things into Ulm. Apprentice Smiths just needs graphics unless you replace one of Ulm's existing units (maybe one of the Commanders) and drain-immunity is not moddable, but you can give him small research bonus. Magic resistance (or other stats) of existing units are easy to change, and while you might not be able to mod extra damage you can create a new Halberd that will hit magical units. Or use the existing Enchanted Pike, although that wouldn't fit Ulm's magic.

Sandman

January 9th, 2005, 08:00 AM

Why would one ever buy this? It is a bad researcher (3 points), cannot cast any useful battle spells (65 gp for 4-5 Iron Wills/battle is not useful IMO), cannot forge any useful items... Master Smiths are what Ulm has. They are cheap, and moderate researchers when one remembers that you get 120 free points from their drain immunity.

It's a more efficient researcher than the Master Smith; 1 RP for 22 gold, versus 1 RP for 28 gold on the Master Smith. Note that the Sage is 1 RP for 20 gold for Ulm (unless you try putting them where your dominion is weak).

The apprentice can forge one item which I consider useful; the Girdle of Might (+3 strength, +3 reinvigoration) for only 3 earth gems. There are a few other semi-useful items at earth-1, Boots of the Behemoth being one example.

And yes, the apprentice is pretty limited on the battlefield. So are lots of other low-level national mages. Their main role is supporting the Master Smiths via research and simple forges. The Master Smiths are then free to perform more important stuff; complex forges, summons, site-searching and combat.

No! With "low Earth" this would take away Ulm's specialty, drain-immune mages - and Ulm would get nothing out of it! Ulm's Master Smiths already are immune, and Ulm would have to find independents to make this useful. Other nations, OTOH, would be able to make Drain-protected Vanir, Mystics, Sea Kings...

Fair enough. I can't really see any other nation being very competitive if they were employing a drain scale and drain stones strategy, though. I mean, is it worth taking max drain as Vanheim or Arco now, and making up the difference with Owl Quills?

But I'm happy to drop this one. It can't be modded anyway.

I agree that some kind of a bonus would be appopriate. Just making it magic weapon able to harm ethereal opponents could do, I think, but extra damage against magical creatures would be very powerfull. I don't know if it would be too much. Is it possible to mod Moon Blade-like extra damage for magical units?

I don't think that it is... I'll just go with the ability to hit ethereal stuff.

But then, both are known for their high power in ways of magic. Ulm, the nation with as little magic as possible, with higher-than-normal magical resources? Thanks, but no thanks.

Hmm, that's true. But then again, the Forges of Ulm are, well, forges. And Ulm is known for forging stuff.

I may try enacting some of these changes via a mod. I'll probably use the Black Acolyte (useless unit) as the graphical base for the Apprentice Smith.

Arralen

January 15th, 2005, 06:24 AM

It's Heavy Inf and Knights is (nearly) all that Ulm has, troops-wise, that is. Now, if I compare those troops to other nations (esp. those which came into the game later) heavy troops, it's clear that Ulms troops quite suck compared to other nations heavy infantry !:

- They don't have +2HP (as it may have been intended), but only +1HP compared with other HI. And 11 or 12 does not make that much of a difference.

- They are 10 gold - ATT/DEF 10 troops. Arco Hoplite costs 10, has ATT/DEF 11 (gold shouldn't be a prob with Ulm, though)

- Add to this the fact that all of their weapons have negative DEF modifiers ..

- They are supposed to be bigger .. but maybe they should train their strength, too (10 vs 11 of the Hoplite)..

- Moral is only 10 vs 11-12 on the others. Add the fact that Ulm does not get Holy-3 priests and therefore cannot cast "sermon of courage" ..

##############################################
Ulm Infantry
HP 12 STR 10
ATT 10 DEF 10
MOR 10 MR 9
ENC 3 MOV 1/7

Hammer 7/0/-1/1 / Morning Star 6/1/-2/2
Full Chain Mail 14/-3/3
Tower Shield 3/4/2

10 gold 23 ress
---------------------------

Ulm Black Plate Inf
HP 12 STR 10
ATT 10 DEF 10
MOR 10 MR 9
ENC 3 MOV 1/5

Hammer 7/0/-1/1
Full Plate o'Ulm 18/-5/5
Tower Shield 3/4/2

10 gold 36 ress
==============================

Pyhtium Principe
HP 11 STR 10
ATT 11 DEF 11
MOR 12 MR 10
ENC 3 MOV 2/8

Short Sword 5/0/1/1
Lorica 10/-1/2
Tower Shield 3/4/2

15 gold 19 ress
---------------------------

Machaka Hoplite
HP 11 STR 10
ATT 11 DEF 11
MOR 11 MR 10
ENC 2 MOV 1/12

Machaka Spear 5/-1/-1/5
Plate Hauberk 14/-2/4
Great Hide Shield 2/4/1

12 gold 24 ress
----------------------------

Arco Hoplite

HP 11 STR 11
ATT 11 DEF 11
MOR 12 MR 10
ENC 3 Mov 1/7

Long Spear 3/0/-1/5
Plate Hauberk 14/-2/4
Round Shield 3/2/1

10 gold 28 ress
-----------------------------

Morkilus

January 20th, 2005, 08:26 PM

Hmm and here I thought I was playing with tough little soldiers... Well since I only play SP so far, I suppose it doesn't matter. So is this thread only about the Iron Faith and default Ulm nations? I seem to be enjoying the Black Forest option, since I can diversify quite nicely with all the astral magic available. Trouble is, with the low luck scale my pretender keeps getting more and more cripples; to the point where he was completely blinded. Ooo scary, a blind Manticore.

The good part about Ulm (i'm probably wrong) is that their troops have a low gold cost for their relative staying power on the field, right? As long as they can avoid massed crossbows, fireballs, and squidheads, they do alright for their low paycheck. Their average strength and HP seems like an oversight, however given their "flavor text".

Graeme Dice

January 20th, 2005, 08:56 PM

Morkilus said:
Trouble is, with the low luck scale my pretender keeps getting more and more cripples; to the point where he was completely blinded. Ooo scary, a blind Manticore.

That's from getting damaged, not from the luck scale.

Endoperez

January 24th, 2005, 03:11 PM

This does not fix balance problems, but might still be quite a nice upgrade for Ulm... Check the screenshot, and look at the crescents. Haven't looked better since Dom:PPP! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And yes, the horses' legs are strange. I'm not a wizard, just someone copypasting. If there's interest, I might elt you have this. I have had it for some time myself, and it does enchance the game, a little.

PvK

January 24th, 2005, 09:17 PM

Nice, Endro!

Arralen

February 18th, 2005, 05:13 PM

Ok folks, as no-one said anything about testing the mod and finding everything f*** up, I did a test game myself and handed Ulm over to the AI.
It squashed everything flat, my Tuatha incl. . But it had a very good start, and got lots of castles to conquer.
Yeah, if you give the AI castles to conquer (it still can't build them by itself), you'll get some decent army from the AI, not only a bunch of LI ... here's a screenshot from the biggest army Ulm send against me: 23 commanders, 448 troops, 19 undead. And it would have been even bigger, if the AI would not have supply problems on 90% of all maps because a) it doesn't know how to forge supply items and b)prov size haven't been nerfed since Dom:PPP by 75% ...

note the big number of Black Plate Infantry ...
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/333300-ulms_army.png

Saber Cherry

February 19th, 2005, 03:28 AM

I don't know how true this is in the real game, but in the combat simulator, Ulm's biggest problem tends to be fatigue. The unit descriptions say they have "high endurance" but is seems to have no effect on their ability to fight in heavy armor:) Giving all ulmish units +1 strength and +2 reinvigoration would be thematic and effective.

As for countering Ulm's magic weakness, here's a thematic possibility, the "Arcane Cripple" :

"More susceptable to magic than their brethren, some poor Ulmians have been twisted and scarred by its harsh energies even while yet unborn. While their presence reaffirms Ulm's long-held fear of magic power, Master Smiths sometimes harness their weakness to acquire the rare gems necessary in advanced forging, using a Cripple's pain like a lodestone to find sites of magic power."

Arcane Cripples are sacred, have rather low stats, are feebleminded, and have another random disability, and MR=6. They are leaders, with 0 leadership and no special actions. However, every turn they have a random chance of discovering a magic site in their province - any magic site, regardless of path or level. They would be quite cheap (maybe 30 gold, depending on the chance of finding a site each turn).

The other possiblity:

Master Jeweler.

"Though best known for forging tools of war, Ulm's metallurgical talents also encompass the area of fine jewelry. The reknowned Ulmish Master Jewelers will search far and wide for prized gemstones to endow upon their latest masterpiece."

Master Jewelers would also have no magic paths, but could use the special command "Look For Pretty Jewels" to find any gem-producing site up to level 1 in any path. Like a level-1 rainbow mage, but including holy/unholy, and unable to find sites like "Damned Merchant" which do not produce any gems. Master Jewelers should cost about 250g and get a random gem in their inventory every season (not every month) regardless of their activities.

Arralen

February 19th, 2005, 04:44 AM

Reinvigoration may be too much, but I'm thinking about lowering the base encumbrance off all Ulmish units by 1 or even 2 ... ok, another test game due ...

And the other things will have to wait until Dom3 at least, don't think the dev will make them available for modding in Dom2 with the final patch ?!

Saber Cherry

February 19th, 2005, 05:47 AM

Another possibility is an Ulm-only national spell, Earth Lore (or something like that) that is 2E and 8 Earth gems to cast, which reveals all level-1 sites in a (land) province, or a spell that reveals all elemental sites in a land province, like Tiamat's Something. Either would make sense for a race of earth-attuned miners. Although I like the special units better, because they seem fun=) But as you say none of this could be done through modding.

PvK

February 21st, 2005, 11:44 PM

Lowering base encumbrance by one sounds good.

However, I don't think that's really needed. Ulm fight just fine if they have enough critical mass in their infantry. In on of my current games, I've just fought off two massive attacks from Marignon using a moderately large block of Ulm infantry, one holy-3 caster for Surmon of Courage, and a flank of a few Ulm leaders with earth trinkets and 7 black knights. I've lost one infantry of Ulm in each battle, and killed about 80 enemies in each battle including several commanders. No Ulmites routed or collapsed from fatigue.

Morale and magic resistance are worse weaknesses for Ulm than fatigue. Fatigue is solved by bringing enough troops to battle.

PvK

Saber Cherry

February 22nd, 2005, 12:13 AM

Versus undead Ermor is where fatigue really comes into play. Actually, considering the MR-negates weapons of Soul Gate Ermor, that'd be pretty nasty against Ulm as well.

For me, reducing Ulm's encumbrance is more based on the description, which specifically states they are larger than normal humans and can take much more punishment before collapsing. And yet, they are no better at fighting in heavy armor than normal humans... which seems amiss. Yet indy Barbarians get an encumbrance of only 2, so there is precedent for nonmagical humans of extraordinary build having such endurance.

I'm not going to claim that changing encumbrance will make Ulm a top nation, or protect its Achilles heel - but giving a weaker nation a positive change that makes thematic sense can never hurt, IMO.

PvK

February 22nd, 2005, 05:15 PM

Yes, I agree that it would be a good thematic tweak, SC.

(I'd only quibble that Ulm can do quite well against Ermor even with their current fatigue.)

PvK

Arralen

March 19th, 2005, 09:21 AM

I have released version 1.01 of "Black Steel of Ulm".

Hopefully it will be available through Illwinters website soon.

Code:<hr /><pre>
README.TXT - Changes in v1.00:

All changes are given in []

-- All units get -1 encumbrance, e.g. Inf has (2) instead of (3)
--
-- All Standard Inf is STR 11 [+1] (fits it's HP 12)
--
-- All Black Plate Inf is gold 12 [+2], ATT/DEF 11 [+1], MOR 11 [+1]
-- Black Plate Pikeneer end up with MOR 12 [+1]
--
-- General MR is 11 [+2], which works out to 12.5
-- with the inevitable drain 3 ..
-- Knight Commanders are at 12.
--
-- The troops wear either "Full Chain of Ulm",
-- "Helmet" and have strat move 2[+1], or
--
-- "Full Plate of Ulm", "Black Steel Helmet"
-- and have strat move 1.
--
-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17[-1], def -2[+3], enc 4[-1]
--
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 14[+0], def -2[+1], enc 2[-1]
-- vs. "standard full chain"
--
-- Crossbowmen prec 11 [+1]
--
-- Black Knight gcost 50 [-10] rcost 60 [-10]
-- Black Lord gcost 120 [-10] rcost 60 [-10]
-- Knights use swords for melee now.
--
-- Master Smith has Fire-1, Earth-2, Elemental-1 [+1] now
-- Base Encumbrance is 3 [-2], MR is 15 [+1]
-- HP 12 [+2], STR 13 [+2] ... they're SMITHES, after all ..
-- Cost 185 gold [+45]
--
-- Unit descriptions redone, to give some hints
-- about advantageous usage.
--
--
-- PD changed to build shielded inf and armored commander first,
-- priest and arbalests later.</pre><hr />

PvK

March 19th, 2005, 11:17 PM

Nice. I like most of the changes, although:

-- Black Plate Pikeneer end up with MOR 12 [+1]

Does anyone know why Black Plate Pikeneers have +1 morale compared to other infantry of Ulm anyway???

-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17[-1], def -2[+3], enc 4[-1]
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 14[+0], def -2[+1], enc 2[-1]
-- vs. "standard full chain"

Improvements to armor seem unnecessary to me - Ulmish armor is already one of their best points. Improved chainmail is ok, but I don't understand why Ulmish plate is given the +3 defense. If it's based on the realism argument mentioned earlier, then I don't think it makes sense to apply it without applying it to all tailored plate armor of every nation.

-- Master Smith has Fire-1, Earth-2, Elemental-1 [+1] now

I'm not sure I like the added elemental magic. It'll certainly help Ulm a lot, though, since (as you know doubt appreciate) not only does it reduce the need to find indy mages, but it means they can use forge bonus on additional items without empowerment. I do like the other Smith changes.

Did you touch the themes, or just the default theme? I guess you couldn't really handle BF Ulm with your PD change since the PD will apply of BF Ulm as well. I'd like to see Ghoul Guardians improved (higher MR to avoid banishment, reduced cost, mb Ulmish armor), and the Holy Knights get a commander version (too bad that would require a duplicate graphic though).

PvK

Endoperez

March 20th, 2005, 08:20 AM

I have already made a similar mod, found earlier in this thread, in which I replaced Black Acolyte with Black Paladin, gave Ghoul Guardians better mr and Ulmish armor and gave the base theme few special commanders, foot commander with fighting stats and berserk +1, cowardly arbalestman with high precision, and weak (old) general with ldr 75, standard, move 1/5 or so and low stats.

I also gave Lord Guardian map move of 2 and supply bonus 5 or so.

The idea was to give Ulm better possibilites to use magic items and its national armies.

Saber Cherry

March 20th, 2005, 09:20 AM

Arralen, you ought to sneak Endoperez's shields into the mod as well. Those look pretty sweet, and in war, looking good is half the battle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Saber Cherry

March 20th, 2005, 09:25 AM

PvK said:
-- Black Plate Pikeneer end up with MOR 12 [+1]

Does anyone know why Black Plate Pikeneers have +1 morale compared to other infantry of Ulm anyway???

That's to make up for pikes lacking armor piercing, like in Master of Magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-- Master Smith has Fire-1, Earth-2, Elemental-1 [+1] now

I'm not sure I like the added elemental magic.

Really? I think it's pretty cool. It's a bit... um, "bad" to have a forging nation incapable of forging... really, anything interesting. Replacing the fire with elemental (EE #) seems fair too, though.

Endoperez

March 20th, 2005, 09:48 AM

But Iron Faith has mages with E and Full random, and I think EE# and E? are too close to each other. It is hard to balance might>magic nation when might<magic after the more powerful spells come in.

Arralen

March 20th, 2005, 11:45 AM

Saber Cherry said:
Arralen, you ought to sneak Endoperez's shields into the mod as well. Those look pretty sweet, and in war, looking good is half the battle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

They're in ...

godofdun

March 20th, 2005, 01:56 PM

Speaking of Black Forest, is there any way currently to modify a theme for a nation (such as its prerequisite scales) directly, as opposed to just editing some of the units? I'm a bit of a n00b at this, i looked through the mod manual but didn't see a command for it so im not even sure if its possible. I'm asking cause it seems to me that a mandatory death 1 scale for a blood nation as any patrolling you do would kill off ur pop, limiting your slave income severely.

quantum_mechani

March 20th, 2005, 02:35 PM

godofdun said:
Speaking of Black Forest, is there any way currently to modify a theme for a nation (such as its prerequisite scales) directly, as opposed to just editing some of the units? I'm a bit of a n00b at this, i looked through the mod manual but didn't see a command for it so im not even sure if its possible. I'm asking cause it seems to me that a mandatory death 1 scale for a blood nation as any patrolling you do would kill off ur pop, limiting your slave income severely.

No, there is no way to change anything in a theme other than editing it's units.

Endoperez

March 20th, 2005, 02:38 PM

No, that cannot be modded. As a rule, if it isn't in the modding manual, it can't be done.

However, I have made a mod than replaces a nation (I think Abysia) with Black Forest, and a program with which you can change the replaced nation to any land nation. So you can use that mod to replace Ulm with Black Forest. I coudln't put the theme requirements on it.

godofdun

March 20th, 2005, 02:43 PM

wow, nice haha, yeah i figured that was a long shot. Anyway, where can i get this shiny sounding mod of yours? It doesn't list a website for u in your profile, and im really excited by a more "vampire" themed blood nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Endoperez

March 20th, 2005, 03:06 PM

Right now, it is an attachment. I will probably make a new version of the National Replacement series, add Mictlan and Atlantis (although neither can be used without major changes to how they play out, namely dominion spreading without blood sacrifice and auto-spawning hybrids) and fix some bugs that seem to plague that oh-so-simple Mod Converter.

EDIT: You won't get any national heroes, and will get the fortress resource bonus base Ulm gets. I don't know if you should receive the latter or not, but it can't be modded so it won't change.

Saber Cherry

March 20th, 2005, 06:22 PM

Endoperez said:
No, that cannot be modded. As a rule, if it isn't in the modding manual, it can't be done.

I found an exception. I was trying to put "life drain" and "3x damage to undead" and "soul slay" secondary effects on weapons by using random numbers, and I got strange secondary effects... for example...

"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Pike"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Rune Smasher"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Halberd"

I'm not sure what they would do. But there are probably lots of real effects not listed in the mod manual.

godofdun

March 20th, 2005, 08:41 PM

sweet, thx, i'll definately have fun tinkering with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Endoperez

March 21st, 2005, 07:01 AM

Saber Cherry said:

Endoperez said:
No, that cannot be modded. As a rule, if it isn't in the modding manual, it can't be done.

I found an exception. I was trying to put "life drain" and "3x damage to undead" and "soul slay" secondary effects on weapons by using random numbers, and I got strange secondary effects... for example...

"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Pike"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Rune Smasher"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Halberd"

I'm not sure what they would do. But there are probably lots of real effects not listed in the mod manual.

That is documented. Description of #secondaryeffectalways mentions that those special effects are just weapon types. So you can wield Weak Poison, or Death Poison, or Unconsciousness (although the in-game version has a typo). However, they are meant to be used in weapons. You can also do new secondaryeffects, e.g. Flame Storm, AoE 10, dam 15, Fire, armor-piercing. And you can duplicate effects like Shatter, or Slay Magic, but not mod them.

2x, 3x and lifedrain aren't possible, but Soul Slay is. Look through Edi's weapon list.

Saber Cherry

March 21st, 2005, 07:53 AM

Endoperez said:

Saber Cherry said:

Endoperez said:
No, that cannot be modded. As a rule, if it isn't in the modding manual, it can't be done.

I found an exception. I was trying to put "life drain" and "3x damage to undead" and "soul slay" secondary effects on weapons by using random numbers, and I got strange secondary effects... for example...

"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Pike"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Rune Smasher"
"Additional effect when striking the enemy: Halberd"

I'm not sure what they would do. But there are probably lots of real effects not listed in the mod manual.

That is documented. Description of #secondaryeffectalways mentions that those special effects are just weapon types. So you can wield Weak Poison, or Death Poison, or Unconsciousness (although the in-game version has a typo). However, they are meant to be used in weapons. You can also do new secondaryeffects, e.g. Flame Storm, AoE 10, dam 15, Fire, armor-piercing. And you can duplicate effects like Shatter, or Slay Magic, but not mod them.

2x, 3x and lifedrain aren't possible, but Soul Slay is. Look through Edi's weapon list.

Yay!!! Version 8.0 of the Recruitable Unit Mod will be neat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The only question is... how much would you pay for Valkyries with "Soul Slay" spears?

...and back to Ulm, sorry for side-tracking the thread!

Oversway

May 26th, 2005, 06:34 PM

Something I was thinking that might be nice for ulm (and it may have been suggested before) is a good forger unit. Something like a cheap 1 earth commander with a good forge bonus. Give it a research penalty and high endurance so useless for researching or combat. I think its thematic that ulm would be able to pump out lots of armor and weapons.

Then I was thinking giving a random as well so they could forge a better variety of weapons and armors, but then you get a super hoarder. Maybe only a socery random. Blood stones might still be an issue.

Either way a random would give ulm a big sitesearching help, which might be good but maybe not alll that thematic.

Alneyan

May 27th, 2005, 04:21 AM

Aren't you thinking of Black Faith here? They have what you want: cheap forgers (especially cheap because of lower upkeep), and a full random. That comes at the cost of a slower research, and a more expensive theme, as you cannot go all the way to Drain 3 without taking "damage". If you are lucky, you can create a research pocket though, by using a Stone Idol, hence solving Drain problems with Black Faith.

Taking Earth on the Pretender is advised however, in case all your mages agree not to have an Earth random. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Still, you will recruit lots of them, so 1/8 should happen sooner or later.

Oversway

May 27th, 2005, 10:12 AM

I havn't used iron faith much, but it sounds like what I was gettin at. I suppose then that ulm needs more than just a cheap forger.

FrankTrollman

May 27th, 2005, 02:44 PM

Really what Iron Faith needs is some way to make it not completely suck and waste my time by existing. When you get down to it, that's really my only problem with it.

Iron Faith is a crap team that can't win. The fact that their full random is used as an excuse for why regular Ulm can't have nice things just makes it even worse. Really, using Iron Faith as an excuse for why Ulm can't have randoms is like using Serpent Cult Pythium as an example of why Oceania shouldn't be allowed to have Nature and Water mages. If a theme is a waste of space, its existence shouldn't keep others from horning in on its junk.

Ulm gets Forge Bonuses, yes, but thanks to its absolutely dreadful site searching, it actually has less gems coming in than just about anyone. Really, you end up with about the same number of gems worth of forged items as anyone else, and less summoned monsters. And Ulm can't even natively buil a hammer, which means that anyone else who wants to forge a bunch of stuff can probably do it better than Ulm can.

A Forge-happy Atlantis is better at mass forging than Ulm is. Not "almost as good", it's better.

Ulm needs at least a random elemental pick on its Master Smiths. Then at the very least one out of four of them could make a hammer and you could ever find magic sites. Forge bonuses are by themselves meaningless unless you actually have a supply of gems.

And no, even a full random wouldn't be enough to turn Ulm into super hoarders. The best they could do at that point is have the random death master make Mound Kings (once they had found a death site or three), and then have the random Nature master make Fever Fetishes (after finding a nature site or two). One random Nature and you couldn't natively hoard anything. If you have to wait until you get Construction 6 to Clam hoard, you aren't a real clam hoarder, are you?

-Frank

Oversway

May 27th, 2005, 02:54 PM

Depends how you feel about empowerment. Giving a random water pick sure helps, compared to having to empower from 0 to 2...

FrankTrollman

May 27th, 2005, 03:16 PM

Sure. But that's 30 Water gems down the drain. The Forge Bonus cuts the price on a Clam by 3 gems if you don't have a hammer, and 2 gems if you do. So best case scenario (compared to Atlantis without an Earth God, for instance), you are looking at pulling ahead after you produce 11 Clams.

...Except let's face it, you don't. You have to pay 30 Water Gems up front, and then you save 3 gems per Clam after that. Once Atlantis has paid 30 Water Gems, they actually have 3 Clams to their name, which in turn produce 3 Gems a turn.

So yeah, if you include empowerment, the forge bonus is almost enough to make up the difference late in the game. Not quite, but almost.

I'm seriously not concerned. Especially if they got a random Elemental, leaving their god as the only unit that might be able to take advantage of the Astral Pearls.

-Frank

Endoperez

May 27th, 2005, 03:27 PM

Every Master Smith can make Dwarven Hammers, but only after Constr. 4. Making one costs them 15+7 earth gems, only 2 more than it would cost for any other nation, AND every pair of Earth Boots and every Dwarven Hammer will be forged even cheaper.

Ulm has cheap, although not sacred, mages, and as you can't really have enough resources to pour all your gold into units you would have enough spare money to actually use Fever Fetishes on living units until you can get undead.

Ulm's native mages can't sitesearch well. That forces you to use a Rainbow mage or to suffer from less sites. However, F2A2W2S2D2N2B1 rainbow can find most sites, can forge boosters for +2F, +2W, +1S, +3N, (atleast) +1D, +1Elem (after W and F booster). With only one S more the pretender can make Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry, with one E pick and Earth Boots you can make Crystal Coin and get that boost if you don't want to take S3. From humans, Master Druid (stealthy) and Great Enchantress (cheapest S3 + one pearl). You would have to stay out of battle, but I find Fire Darts, Magma Bolts and later Blade Wind good enough.

Full random on Smiths would be powerful with such a pretender, as the Smiths could get any path to 2 or 3, and forge cheap boosters from then on. There are also quite good items with E and other path, like Shield of Valor, Crystal Coin, Fire Brand (and in Zen's, Frost Brand)...

Alneyan

May 27th, 2005, 03:47 PM

FrankTrollman said:
Iron Faith is a crap team that can't win. The fact that their full random is used as an excuse for why regular Ulm can't have nice things just makes it even worse. Really, using Iron Faith as an excuse for why Ulm can't have randoms is like using Serpent Cult Pythium as an example of why Oceania shouldn't be allowed to have Nature and Water mages. If a theme is a waste of space, its existence shouldn't keep others from horning in on its junk.
-Frank

Note that Iron Faith has only been raised in answer to Oversway's suggestion of giving one full random to Ulm; whether this is enough or not is another matter altogether. Ulm can do well (bring your own Rainbow/SC Pretender), and I see no reason why Iron Faith would not do just as well. Those themes are simply different, and their attractions are not quite the same: regular Ulm has more design points and better Earth mages, while Iron Faith has cheaper and more varied mages, but at the cost of a weaker research (until Stone Idols come online). In this case, there is the point in having Iron Faith around, though it may not appeal to all players. That Ulm is too weak can be argued; that Iron Faith is much weaker and useless (*Nods to PvK*) seems to be a whole different matter.

I can't say I see the link between "one theme has a random, one of its few attractions over the main nation" and "one nation has mages with a combination of two paths, making it impossible for another nation to have the same mages". In the first case, that random is a major reason to play Iron Faith; in the second case, there is no connection, as some nations share the same magic (Atlantis and R'lyeh are very close, like Pythium and Conquerors of the Seas, or even Raptors and Vanheim, or Carrion Woods and C'tis).

If you do want to see a theme whose use seems dubious, Barbarian Kings is the usual example: a much weaker economy, the same mages as in the basic theme, and a slightly better cavalry (plus the Master of the Dead) does not cut it. I think it is the only theme I would never consider, unless I wanted a strong handicap; even a theme like Return of the Raptors allows to do things outside the normal scope of Caelum. It does not mean Return of the Raptors is an appealing choice, or on an equal footing with the regular nation: all it means is that Return of the Raptors offers a different nation, pretty much like Iron Faith.

I am not going to tackle such balance issues however, mostly because I do not think I am competent to deal with such matters (if I thought so, I would have already worked on a mod or in a grand project mending everything "wrong" and "broken" in Dominions).