[PBEM game] Entwined Destiny (Over)

[Alneyan]

The current roster:
- Aku and Boron: Pangaea + Abysia
- Alexti and Izaqyos: Vanheim + Jotunheim
- CUnknown and YellowCactus: Mictlan + Ulm
- Dragon11 and PashaDawg: Pythium + Ermor
- GriffinOfBuerrig and TheBirthdayParty: C'tis + Marignon
- Tuidjy and Yvelina : Caelum + Arcoscephale

Settings of the game:
- Map: Inland, with set, unknown starting locations.
- Independents: 6
- Research: Normal
- Site frequency: 50%
- Hall of Fame: 15 entries
- Scores are off, but there will be vague comments from the host about how the nations are faring
- Victory condition: Last team standing (or when all teams are willing to concede to a team)
- Mod: Zen Pretenders mod 2.0, available from here (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/). The latest change lot for the mod is available here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=296181) (it is currently the latest post in the thread).

A little something about hosting policies (feel free to only glance over this part):
- The host (myself) will not be playing in the game.
- The deadlines will be at a fixed hour, so any turn running earlier than expected will result in a longer deadline for next turn. In other words, if a game is scheduled to turn at 2000 GMT, and I received all the files at 1400, the game will run at 1400 and the next deadline will be on tomorrow at 2000. The game will only go ahead of the schedule if we gain a full day; for example, if I receive all the files by Sunday 1800 instead of Monday 1800, the next deadline will be on Tuesday 1800 and not Wednesday 1800 (as it would have been otherwise).
- Whenever possible, I will send a status mail about the turns I have received. If we are under a 24 hours schedule, the status mail will be sent as soon as I can, though it may be as late as three/four hours before the deadline. If we are playing with a 48 hours turnaround or more, the status mail will be sent 24 hours before the deadline.
- If a player cannot play her turn at any given time, the other player can do so. If both players are away, someone else may step in, or I can be given a list of instructions and play their turns.
- Two mails will be used for this game; one of these addresses is very reliable and fast, but does not bounce when it fails to deliver a mail, while the other is just the opposite. Simply replying to my mail delivering the turn will use both mails by default. If one of the mails has bounced, feel free to resend it on both addresses, even if I have likely already received it on my other mail.
- If you want to make sure your turn did reach me, I also have a third mail set to send a "message received" mail (dominions2[AT]yahoo[DOT]fr).
- Mails will be sent to each nation individually, so you do not really need to set a password as you will only get the files for your nations. The fatherland file will not be sent to the players.
- Every few turns, I will send all the game files to a backup mail, in case something truly unexpected happens. This will ensure you can go on with the game if I disappear from the Internet or if my hard drive dies on me. Gandalf has the password and the ID for this backup mail, so he is the one to be contacted if I am suddenly nowhere to be found.

[PashaDawg]

I would be interested. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Aku]

I will talk to Boron tomorrow but he and I were talking about wanting to get in a team game together. I will see if he wants to do this with me.

[alexti]

Sounds interesting to me.

Though I'd suggest such settings that there's an even number of teams, or if it's odd, it's not 3 at least...

[Alneyan]

I would hope to have enough players to avoid such problems; 4 teams seem the minimum number to get the game started, and 6 teams would be needed for Theater of War.

[TheBirthdayParty]

I'm interested. Though, what does the PBEM stand for?

[Boron]

Yeah i am in with Aku http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

What about a 60 turns no rush match ? I think that would be quite interesting and remind me on the good old days in starcraft with my numerous gorgeous north vs. south 15 min no rush matches http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

P.S. : Concerning Mods i would vote for either Zens pretendermod or Dom 2 Vanilla .

The pretendermod is imo very good but in the weaponsmod iirc hoarding items + ll items are nerfed too much imo .
Both kinds of items need imo no nerfing at all because ll weapons suck against a bunchload of troops anyway like tomb wyrms , mech men , skeleton hordes etc. .

[deccan]

TheBirthdayParty said:
I'm interested. Though, what does the PBEM stand for?



Play by e-mail, as opposed to a TCP/IP MP game.

[Alneyan]

Well, a turn limit would make for a fairly different game, though it may be an idea for another game (say, how many VPs you can hold in the course of these X turns, or something of the like).

So, the following players would be interested:
- Aku and Boron
- Alexti
- PashaDawg
- The Birthday Party

Does any of you have a preference about how to assign the nations, or what map to play? (I will have to make a couple of modifications to the map so that all teams start near to each other)

[Shadowfury333]

Well, what Version of D2 does this use. If it is compatible with 2.08 then I'd like to join with Abysia (I only have demo, looks to be very close to the real game).

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Heda, i am also interressted.
A suggestion: What about good vs evil(when the teams are allied).
In the Mom we would bei 6 player: Ulm, Man and Marigion vs. Emor, Machaka and Miclan....

Just an idea, i am interessed no matter what happens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Alneyan]

Shadowfury => Well, I think the demo was fully comptabible with the full game back in the days of Dominions 1, but I am not sure how it would work with Dominions 2. If you want, drop me a mail and I will send you a test game, to see if you can play in full games. The Version for this game will be the latest patch, so 2.15.

Griffin => Note that there will be several teams of two players, so you would need more than a single theme. It may be quite difficult to work out as well: a Vanheim/Caelum (Realms of Frost) team would probably be a bit too powerful against, say, Ulm/Marignon (Realms of Man). Something of the like can certainly be considered however, perhaps by offering fixed pairs of nations.

[WraithLord]

I am also interested.
Though I can't commit to playing "fast" games.
24-48 hours per turn is my usuall pace.

[Aku]

Boron and I are a team. You listed him with Alexti =(

I like the idea of picking nations of the first team picks their first nation first and their 2nd nation pick is the Last of all teams, etc.

[Alneyan]

Thanks for pointing this out Aku, that will teach me why I should be paying more attention when doing anything at seven in the morning. The typo has been corrected.

48 hours will likely be more comfortable for coordination, especially if the two players of a team live far away from each other (time zones can be so annoying). Of course, turns will run faster than that if I do get all turn files before the deadline.

[CUnknown]

I am interested in playing.

[alexti]

I think that selecting the second nation in the order opposite to selecting the first one is the best choice.

[Alneyan]

Then the nations should be selected that way (let's call it "the first shall be Last").

The current roster is as follow (please let me know with you you want to be paired):
- Aku and Boron
- Alexti
- CUnknown
- GriffinOfBuerrig
- Izaqyos
- PashaDawg
- Shadowfury333 (if it can work out with the demo)
- The Birthday Party

As for the settings:
- Map: Both players of the same team will start next to each other, but the manual placement will not be known by the players. Theater of War offers a nice layout for six teams, but any other map should do the trick.
- Independents: The common 6 for now.
- Research: Normal, or perhaps Hard.
- Site frequency: 45
- Scores: On, off, or any compromise you can think of.
- Hall of Fame: 15
- Renaming is on
- Turnaround: likely 48 hours from the start, with a fixed deadline hour.

[CUnknown]

Yellow Cactus wants to play, we will be paired together.

[alexti]

Please put izaqyos and alexti as a team

[PashaDawg]

I believe that Dragonfire11 is going to be my partner. But, I will double check.

[Yvelina]

I want to play! I will ask Tuidjy... I am pretty sure he will agree.

I also think that rolling for the order in which a team picks races is the way to go, with reversing the order for the second race.

As for rankings, what I would like the most is a vague commentary from the host, each turn.

I like Zen's pretender mods, mostly because they are easy to evaluate and understand. I would rather not use the spell/scales mods, but I do not feel about strongly enough to insist.

There is another rule I would like to see thrown in: no communication between teams, except for trash talking in this thread :-) I know it cannot be enforced, but...

And now I am off to look at the map.

[YellowCactus]

Place me with Cunknown please.

[Alneyan]

Very good point about no communications Yvelina. The best I can do to enforce this rule is to check turns for "You have received a message from someone not being your ally", and perhaps even keep secret the nations of the players. If I do that, you may want to transmit any trash talk to me so that I can post it in your stead.

As for the score comments, would you say something like "The realm of Somewhere is renowned for its mastery of magic, but more mundane warfare has been discarded" is vague enough?

It looks like nobody feels too strongly about the Scale and Spell mods, so we will stick to the Pretenders mod. The 2.0 Version will be used, available for download here (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/).

The current roster is as follow:
- Aku and Boron
- Alexti and Izaqyos
- CUnknown and YellowCactus
- Dragon11 and PashaDawg
- Tuidjy and Yvelina
- GriffinOfBuerrig
- Shadowfury333 (if it can work out with the demo)
- The Birthday Party

Feel free to drop me a mail so that I can get your mail; the adress is alneyan[AT]fastmail[DOT]co.uk (as found in my profile).

[DragonFire11]

Howday all! I have been willingly drafted by PashaDawg - he must enjoy losing! So count me in.

[Tuidjy]

Well, it seems that we have six teams already (combine GriffinOfBuerrig and the
Birthday Party) so when do we start? I think that we can expect race picking
to take a while, what with waiting for each team to pick a race in order, twice.

By the way, this was just to confirm I am in. From now on, Yvelina speaks for
our team. Oh, and it is 'Yvelina and Tuidjy', or I'm in trouble :-)

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

@Alneyan: So please decide about a system in what order we will decide over the nations.!

Hey BithdayParty, we are a team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Yvelina]

> The realm of Somewhere is renowned for its mastery of magic, but more mundane warfare has been discarded

Exactly... that would describe my Vanheim/Man/Pythium/Caelum (We will get one of these, I hope) perfectly after turn III http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Alneyan]

So, we have this final roster:
- Aku and Boron (I have both mails)
- Alexti and Izaqyos (I have both mails)
- CUnknown and YellowCactus (I have YellowCactus' mail)
- Dragon11 and PashaDawg (I have Pasha's mail)
- GriffinOfBuerrig and the BirthdayParty (I have Griffin's mail)
- Tuidjy and Yvelina (I have both mails)

The method to pick the order claims are made will be random, and I will be casting the dice to see who goes first.

To save some time, I was thinking of asking two or even three teams at once about their pick. The team(s) not speaking first would make other choices in case their first nation(s) of choice are already taken.

To make that clearer: let's say I mail team X, Y and Z about their nations. X claims Ulm, Y claims T'ien Ch'i and Ulm, Z claims T'ien Ch'i, Pangaea and Marignon, but wants their choice to be cancelled if someone picked Ulm before them. In this example, team X would have Ulm, team Y T'ien Ch'i (they are before team Z in the order), and team Z Pangaea.

One Last note: since the map has not been chosen as of yet, the water nations will probably be out of the game (that, and it would make nation choosing more complicated).

[Alneyan]

And the settings as of yet:

- Number of players: six teams of two players
- Map: manual placement of the teams next to each other, though the placement itself may be kept secret (if playing on a standard map).
- Independents: The usual 6 for now
- Research: To be determined
- Site frequency: The standard of 45% for now
- Hall of Fame: 15 entries
- Scores are off, but there will be comments about the nations.
- Victory condition: Last team standing (or when all teams are willing to concede to a team)
- Mod: Zen Pretenders mod 2.0, available from here (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/). The latest change lot for the mod is available here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=296181) (it is currently the latest post in the thread).

[Alneyan]

I have just sent mails to the first three teams in the order (random order as decided by the die). The first team makes a single pick, the second team picks two nations, and the third one picks three nations, with the first nation not claimed by anyone else attributed to this team. The water nations are out of the game.

Sending mails to three teams at once should make nation picking a bit faster, as I will only need four rows of mails to get that part done. In the meantime, there are still a couple of items in the settings that have not been addressed as of yet. The main one is about the map that will be played; I only made a suggestion here about Theater of War (because of its layout).

[Yvelina]

Two questions:

The standard for multiplayer games is magic ressources 50%, not 45%... I do not remember playing a 45% game, unless Yarnspinners was one. Any reason for going to 45%? 50% makes winging probabilities and the payoff of additional searches easier.

Aren't we going to use the six-leaf clover map? Theater of War or something? I cannot think of a standard map that really has six equivalent corners. No one want to play 'monkey in the middle', I hope.

(Karan)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

(Craddle)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Alneyan]

I simply thought 45% was the standard in Dominions, but it is in fact 40%. No problems with having 50% magic sites. I heard nothing about the actual map before, so I was thinking Theater of War did not particulary appeal to the players. It is indeed a very nice map for such setups, and it even comes with preset starting locations.

If we use Theater of War, one small modification may be made to the map: the connection from the mainland to the south-east isle is not as deep as the five others, for no reason I can discern (I made this connection standard in another game using the same map).

Another matter is the preset forts on this map. They have a nice garrison (though nothing to write home about if memory serves), but their presence means the province itself can be taken without a fight. Without patrolling units or PD, a mere scout would take such provinces, leaving only the garrison to take care of at a later date. Would you like to keep the forts in, or should I remove them from the .map file?

[Yvelina]

I think that the forts should be removed, or those who take Caelum or a sneaky nation will have a great advantage... they will be able to bring troops to wrestle these provinces away from the scouts.

As for fixing the connections, I have not looked at them, but what you say makes sense.

Oh, about the research... what is the reasoning against standard research? Not that we would change our race pick based on the research difficulty, or anything. But we should definitely know the setting when designing a pretender. Negative magic scales in retarded games are suicide.

[Alneyan]

I have not really considered the research setting (and I will not be playing in the game, so it isn't as if I would have a say in the matter); the default setting will be applied unless most players want it to be changed. Either way, settings will be final before making the Pretenders at the latest.

Harder research could be considered because of the alliances, as not all fields of research would be really needed (namely Blood, and Conjuration/Construction could perhaps be delayed as well). I wouldn't call that a reasoning though, but simply an opinion, or one example of "host trying to figure out something to say about research setting besides a 'to be determined' comment". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And speaking of the settings, here they come:
- Map: Theater of War, with set, known starting locations. The map will be slightly modified, and the .map file will be made available.
- Independents: 6
- Research: Normal
- Site frequency: 50%
- Hall of Fame: 15 entries
- Scores are off, but there will be vague comments from the host about how the nations are faring
- Victory condition: Last team standing (or when all teams are willing to concede to a team)
- Mod: Zen Pretenders mod 2.0, available from here (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/). The latest change lot for the mod is available here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=296181) (it is currently the latest post in the thread).

[Alneyan]

I have updated the earliest post in the thread. Other than that, I am still waiting for the mails from CUnknown and TheBirthdayParty.

Incidentally, I have not heard anything from TheBirthdayParty since he signed up. So if you are interested in playing in the game, but not currently in any of the teams, you might want to let me know so that I can call on you if needed.

[alexti]

Yvelina said:
Aren't we going to use the six-leaf clover map? Theater of War or something? I cannot think of a standard map that really has six equivalent corners. No one want to play 'monkey in the middle', I hope.



Inland is a fine map for that, everybody will 'monkey in the middle'. And it's not too big either. If we only have 6 teams = 12 players, we better stay under 120-150 province map if we don't want the game to fall apart as people will get tired of micromanagement

[The Panther]

Hey, I am not playing in this game, but I just want to applaud Alneyan for hosing Dominions games for other players. It is guys like this who make the MP community a success for all players.

Also, 6 teams of 2 is a really nifty idea. It is a nice change of pace from the standard FFA games.

As for the team draft thing, reversing order in the second round is a good plan. We do this in my scratch golf league and it really evens out the playing field for all teams. The first guy to pick will get his/her best race but then the teammate has to select from the dregs of whatever is left over. A good way to balance the teams.

I wonder if a single team will get Ermor AE/SG and Pan CW? That would be a very interesting combo indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As Yvelina mentioned, Theater of War seems designed exactly for this type of game with its 6 independent leafs plus the middle for everybody to fight over. No one can really complain about bad starting positions on that map.

Anyway, good luck all and I hope you guys and gals post in this thread on the game progress plus any good battles.

[YellowCactus]

The suggested order of picks reminds me of the board game "Settlers". If it works there, it'll work here.
-Yc

[Alneyan]

Heh, thanks for the kind words Panther, but I find organising games to be more fun than actually playing these days. Go figure.

Theater of War is a bigger map than I had reckoned it to be (about 270 provinces, all land). There is about 30 provinces on each isle, and one hundred on the mainland, though the latter provinces are likely to be contested. If you feel strongly about the size of the map, please say so.

[alexti]

Alneyan said:
Heh, thanks for the kind words Panther, but I find organising games to be more fun than actually playing these days. Go figure.


Good! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Thanks a lot for doing that!


Alneyan said:Theater of War is a bigger map than I had reckoned it to be (about 270 provinces, all land). There is about 30 provinces on each isle, and one hundred on the mainland, though the latter provinces are likely to be contested. If you feel strongly about the size of the map, please say so.


I think I feel strongly about the size, and about the layout too. It looks like a perfect setup for the game to drag into infinity. Not only, it is too big, the layout is actively discourages wars - by the time your army reaches enemy capital, it will be hopelessly outdated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif My forecast for such a game is a massive raid and hoard-fest.

[Alneyan]

Two of the three teams have made their nation picks, but I am still waiting for the first one. Once it is done, the three other teams will get to choose their first nation.

On another news, there is now an opening in the game. TheBirthdayParty did not give any sign of life (though he was on the forum at least twice since he signed up) for the past few days. So unless I get a very good excuse from him, someone else will take his spot in the game.

On the matter of the map, I am waiting for more opinions to settle on the size of the map. However, I will be setting set starting points so that all teams will have roughly comparable starting locations; it will not be perfect, but at least it should ensure nobody starts surrounded by the five other teams.

[Tuidjy]

About the map.

I think the map will be ok if we change the victory conditions to something like
80% of the central isle, with holding a castle counting as possession.

[Aku]

I like the idea of the fighting to the Last team. No need for an 80% land victory because if one team gets that much the other teams may concede the game to that team or may want to fight it out to the end. I always find the fighting to the end part the most fun.

[Alneyan]

Tuidjy did not say anything about controlling 80% of the total provinces, but merely 80% of the provinces in the central isle (that would be a fair number of provinces, though it could be achieved if opposing teams were playing a bit too defensively).

[Alneyan]

The first three nations have been picked: they are (in no particular order) C'tis, Pangaea and Pythium.

I will be sending the mails to the three other teams soon.

[RonD]

One potential worry about using Theater of War for your team game: Only one team at a time will have control of the two provinces needed for travel between the starting area and the central circle. That could make fighting a war a real logistical nightmare.

[Aku]

Those two provinces each have preset fortifications there. One nation can own both forts and the other one can travel through it freely. Basically leave 0 pd in both provinces and its fine. I like the one province chokepoint idea because it is different than normal games. It makes things interesting.

[Aku]

The BirthdayParty person just did a new post asking to get in a game...Aleyrn has he sent you a message at all saying he is still in this game?

[PashaDawg]

I like the theater of war map, as long as there will not be a major problem with getting in and out of central circle by both members of a team. I also like the idea of either victory points or a % of the central circle as the grounds for victory.

[PashaDawg]

Aku said:
The BirthdayParty person just did a new post asking to get in a game...Aleyrn has he sent you a message at all saying he is still in this game?



I would also give TheBirthdayParty a little slack as a newcomer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Alneyan]

I didn't hear anything from him since he signed up on this thread, and his partner didn't either.

Yvelina wished that the forts would be removed (they mean the province can be taken without a fight), but the teams can build their own forts if they wish to share the province that way (flight, magic or keeping a strong base on the mainland are other possibilities).

I have received the nation picks for team 4 and 5, so once team 6 has made their pick we will proceed with choosing the second nations.

[Aku]

There really arent that many forts. Just the special province in the middle of the big circle which I thought added flavor to the map. Then the other forts were wizard towers in the outer circles and a citadel leading out into the inner circle. I thought it was pretty cool to leave them in the game. Are the castles so bad that they need to be removed?

[PashaDawg]

I put a post on BirthdayParty's thread looking for a new game, letting him know that you need him to contact you. He responded that he would.

[Alneyan]

I got his mail, and I have removed the notice about that from the first post in the thread.

[Manuk]

im in if there is enough room

[Alneyan]

Sorry, but we are already at twelve players, so there is no more room for other players.

[Boron]

PashaDawg said:
I like the theater of war map, as long as there will not be a major problem with getting in and out of central circle by both members of a team. I also like the idea of either victory points or a % of the central circle as the grounds for victory.


No victory points or any other victory conditions expect total annilihation are not good .

If one team controls 70% of the map thnx to rushing but another team hoarded + turtled the turtling team has a really good chance to win .
Land possession says little about the strength of a nation .

I would say averagely a province is worth the equivalent of 3 clams and 3 fetishes cause in average a province will give you about 3 gems income and about 40 gold income when fully searched and with not really hostile scales .

In lategame thnx to wish astral pearls are the most important gems though so clams become even more important .

Anyways the assumption is not unlikely that on turn 70 e.g. team A will control 150 provinces and 100 clams , team B will control 40 provinces , but 400 clams and 200-300 fetishes e.g. .
Team B has then probably a better chance to win the game than team A though team A possesses 60% of the map .


So for the sake of real comptetition lets keep the victory condition of Total Annilihation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[YellowCactus]

I've only played about 4 games all the way through. (Due to players dropping out) But from what I've seen, there's no need for victory conditions, let the players slug it out and the winner wins. <What Boron said>
-Yc
P.S. Boron. I'm going to get you this game!

[The Panther]

Hm.... After that post from Boron, how can he still say that clams are balanced???

Clams are actually the most unbalanced artifact in the game. They have a 5 turn or less payback, which is far too short. After those 5 turns, you have 5 pearls for 7 water gem investment (this is assuming you don't have any other bonus besides the hammer). And I think 5 pearls are just as good (probably really better) than 7 water gems. Making clams require 4 water magic skill (sugested by many others in this forum) means the payback is closer to 20 turns, which is far better balanced that a mere 2 water skill and a 5 turn payback.

The fact that Boron thinks a player with 3/4 of the territory can lose to a player with 1/4 of the territory means Dominions must be clearly busted in the late game, which is I something already knew for truth anyway.

I sure hope this gets fixed in Dom 3, or I might not be playing that one when it comes out. After all, there are good reasons why very few games are fought to the bitter end...

[PashaDawg]

I yield to the fine gentleman from Bavaria.

[Alneyan]

The three other nations taken this time are Caelum, Mictlan and Vanheim. The three previous ones were C'tis, Pangaea and Pythium.

I will be sending the third row of mails, where the last three times will pick their second nation.

Note that Tuidjy's proposal does not require one team to have the vast majority of *all* the provinces: it merely requires one team to have a fair share (almost everything) of the mainland. I was thinking it would make standing off a much less appealing strategy, since leaving one team free to steamroll the central provinces would mean defeat faster than you could say "I wish VISA".

In this case, controlling the provinces would trigger victory not because of the power they give, but simply to make "aggressive defence" needed. You could even be meaner, and make it so the first team to control the six "gates" (provinces on the mainland leading to the isles) win the game, or something of the like.

[Yvelina]

I think that if we use 'Theater of War' without some kind of victory condition, we are setting ourselves up for the ultimate turtlefest. With two very effective choke points per isle, and no diplomacy, a team can afford to stay on their isle and go crazy with hoarding items.

Not that I necessarily object to this, as I have found that an aggressive start and a mid-game onset of hoarding beats turtling... and the one race we have secured has no problem hoarding, thank you very much. But I would like to make sure that all players know what they are getting into.

As for me, I am happy with ToW + victory condition, Inland + total anihilation, or even ToW + TA - I am just warning people that the last option will promote turtling. I think that Inland will be the most exciting game, especially if our gracious host picks balanced starting positions.

By the way, Panther, what do you mean 'very few games are fought to the bitter end'? My last four games have been fought to the end, and the two I'm in right now also look as if they will produce a clear winner. It is true that none of them has ended with someone killing off the last enemy, but when all players gang up on one and five turns later admit defeat, I call that a game taken to the end.

[TheBirthdayParty]

Ok. Reitterating, sorry about the delay in responding. I thought I had posted my e-mail and such, thus would be e-mailed information. Anyhoo, I'm here.

Where can I d/l the theatre of war map and i don't think starting provinces has been mentioned. 1 each? Depending on the map, 3 each might be good?

[The Panther]

Yvelina said:
I think that if we use 'Theater of War' without some kind of victory condition, we are setting ourselves up for the ultimate turtlefest. With two very effective choke points per isle, and no diplomacy, a team can afford to stay on their isle and go crazy with hoarding items.

Not that I necessarily object to this, as I have found that an aggressive start and a mid-game onset of hoarding beats turtling... and the one race we have secured has no problem hoarding, thank you very much. But I would like to make sure that all players know what they are getting into.

As for me, I am happy with ToW + victory condition, Inland + total anihilation, or even ToW + TA - I am just warning people that the last option will promote turtling. I think that Inland will be the most exciting game, especially if our gracious host picks balanced starting positions.

By the way, Panther, what do you mean 'very few games are fought to the bitter end'? My last four games have been fought to the end, and the two I'm in right now also look as if they will produce a clear winner. It is true that none of them has ended with someone killing off the last enemy, but when all players gang up on one and five turns later admit defeat, I call that a game taken to the end.



Actually, I could not agree with you more, Yvelina, you are correct in what you say, imho. One of the problems with Dominions is that turtling pays off because of the much too cheap clams.

I suppose what I meant about no games going to the bitter end is that exactly ZERO of my games I have played in WITHOUT VICTORY CONDITIONS went to the bitter end. I am including my game with you in that, for that game definitely did not go to the end. You are your boyfriend essentially won an allied victory in that one. That seems common in that the two top nations kill everyone else and declare a joint victory. This has happened twice now in my games, and it does prevent the intense micro required in the late game from becoming a bore.

In fact, had you and your boyfriend fought each other in that game, it would have taken a long time for one side to win since you both seemed closely balanced at the end. I can fully understand your reluctance to invest the time required to do exactly that. I would have done the very same thing you did in your shoes.

I also must agree with you that if all other players declare one nation the unbeatable winner, then that does count as the bitter end. Given that definition, then my first ever MP game did go to the end with Arch being declared the obvious winner after eventually fighing off everybody else. But none of the 10 games I played since then have gome this way. I am even on turn 125 in one of my games. But I think that is close to a stalemate in that the Pythium player might take another 70 turns to eliminate me because of mass ghost riders and a castle in every province. And because I can't see investing all the time required to play that game to that point, the remaining few players will probably declare Pythium the winner.

I do warn you that the Aku and Boron team will turtle and clam hoard like crazy in this game. With clams at a mere W2 requirement, it is gonna happen and happen and happen again. And then happen some more, for clams are the best thing you can mass produce for sure.

My son did point out that a W3S1 requirement to build a clam makes a lot more sense than a W4 requirement. We talked about it and I think he has it right. it helps the weaker nations like TC and Atrlantis, for those two races can still easily clam hoard but the stronger nations cannot get the mages so easily. Let us hope they do something like this in Dom 3.

I did assume that Petar got Pythium but you missed on Vanheim and will have to take whatever is left over at the end (Ulm perhaps?) Or did you get Vanheim and Petar must take a nation he likes less?

I sure would like for everybody to post frequently once the fighting starts and tell what is going on in this game, for I do really like the format here. I think it is one of Alneyan's best ideas yet, along with his King of the Hill game.

I like it so much that I was even thinking of buying a second copy of dominions just so my son and I could be a team were another game like this occur.

[Aku]

Lets leave the ToW map with TA. Either everyone fights to the bitter end or people will forfeit and declare a winner. I feel the games that are the most fun have no victory conditions.

With victory conditions a pure rush strat can win the game. With TA then you need a strat with a balance between rush and hoard. I personally feel that if you sit and hoard 100% that you are too vulnerable to be taken out in a single turn. In another game Boron sat and hoarded the entire time and Thufir in a single battle destroyed Boron because he lost all his hoard item carriers and all his defenders etc. I do not believe it is unbalanced because a straight hording 100% strat does leave you vulnerable if a neighbor rushes you. Boron is always lucky and seems to never be in a war with anyone so he is allowed to hoard. That is not the fault of hoarding but the fault of his neighbors being nice to him lol. I would like to see no victory conditions because I am extremely curious how everyone will play the game out in the theatre of war map.

[Boron]

I can't hear the *****ing about lategame and hoarding anymore .

Flames from afar target HIDDEN scouts also . So hoarding is not secure or anything only if you are underwater .

But theater of war has not a single water province so stop the whining .

[Yvelina]

Boron, it is not a matter of being afraid of the late game. People who have played me know that I can hoard with the best of them, and as I said, we secured one of the good hoarder races... and we are shooting for a second hoarder.

All I am trying to do is to make sure everyone realizes that without victory conditions we will play a hoarder's wet dream. Why?

1. Starting positions are utterly defensible.
2. The second teammember can defend the hoarder.
3. Magic paths can be combined for better hoarding.
4. Without diplomacy, teams will delay attacks.
5. An attack on someone's isle will entail extremely vulnerable supply lines.
6. The map is huge.

If everyone realizes that without victory conditions this game will be won only through hoarding, and agrees, that is fine. If the other teams would hate such a game, there is no point in starting a game that most people will abbandon.

So, I suggest everyone who is in the game votes on map, victory conditions, diplomacy, and presence/absence of castles in the chokepoints, with the host breaking the ties.

One thing is for sure - we will all be listening about a voice from the sky that tells us that the nation of Foobaria is engaging in magical manufacturing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[alexti]

Yvelina said:
So, I suggest everyone who is in the game votes on map, victory conditions, diplomacy, and presence/absence of castles in the chokepoints, with the host breaking the ties.



I think that's a good idea.

Also, why don't we play on Ringworld map? It looks very interesting. Everybody will have exactly one ally neighbour and one enemy neighbour... Very symmetric...

[PashaDawg]

True. Ringworld could be fun. While I like the Theater of War map, I am still worried about the logistics of teams on that map.

[PashaDawg]

TheBirthdayParty said:
Where can I d/l the theatre of war map and i don't think starting provinces has been mentioned. 1 each? Depending on the map, 3 each might be good?



You can download the map on the Illwinter website (on the map page). http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/maps.html

Pasha

[Boron]

Yvelina said:
All I am trying to do is to make sure everyone realizes that without victory conditions we will play a hoarder's wet dream. Why?



To be a hoarders wet dream the map would need a water province for each nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif.

As it is it is more then inept for hoarding especially since you could look up the starting province numbers in the mapfile and then you would know the enemy capitols without scouting and can try a shoot out of the blue with 5 flames or so . Chances for being successful are quite high since most players leave most of their forgers in their capitol .

[Aku]

I agree with Boron. Also if you sit and hoard then you miss out on the central province. The rushers are going to get the middle province that has some cool bonuses to it. I don't see what all this debate is about.

[The Panther]

Boron said:
Flames from afar target HIDDEN scouts also . So hoarding is not secure or anything only if you are underwater .




Boron - Is this really true????? I did not think so. Are you 100% certain about this? Have the developers spoken on this topic? If it is, then I may be more vulnerable in one of my games that I had previously thought.

I still say that hoarding is a good strategy ONLY because clams (and fetishes, but to a lesser extent) are so woefully underpriced. If they had a proper price attached to them, there would be no discussion.

[CUnknown]

There is no diplomacy in this one? Did I hear that right?

How is this going to be enforced?

What is the point? Doesn't it take away from an important part of the game?

Oh, and I think the map seems awfully large.. Is there any chance of playing on a smaller map?

[Aku]

Panther...I asked Boron the same question. He told me that him and Thufir in another game killed off each others hoarders with the flames spells and including their scouts died. So it is tested and confirmed.

CUnknown the map is a good size because we do have 12 people so its 6 teams and this map lets it easily be divided with the start locations. About diplomacy I believe it is being enforced by only the host knowing what players are playing what nation. So if nobody knows what players are on the other nations besides your teammate it is a bit harder to do diplomacy. The in game messages do work but comon that is so slow and usually too hard to organize anything at all and too much a pain to even bother.

[Alneyan]

Diplomacy (or making it harder) was requested some posts ago by Yvelina, and was something I should have brought up earlier. All I can do to enforce it is hide the nations, and regularly check in-game for in-game messages (if nobody minds banning in-game messages). What I cannot do is check emails, private messages and the like, though I am working on an increase of my powers.

Boron, Theater of War comes with preset starting points, so starting provinces will be very well known. If you leave your best mages in the capital without adequate protection, only you can be blamed for that. If we play another map, I can keep the .map file a secret, so the players will not know where the other starting positions are.

I am certainly fine with a vote. Feel free to vote on this thread or in private.
- Map: Theater of War, Inland, Ringworld have been suggested (any other?)
- Victory conditions: Yes or no here. If you would like victory conditions on only some maps (Theater), please say so.
- Diplomacy: Yes or no. I can keep nations secret and make in-game messages forbidden, but I cannot enforce anything else beyond that.
- In the case of Theater: do you want to keep the forts at the chokepoints?

[Aku]

- Map: Theater of War
- Victory conditions: No
- Diplomacy: Doesn't matter to me
- In the case of Theater: do you want to keep the forts at the chokepoints? Keep the forts and the special province in the middle. It adds flavor to the map.

[Boron]

The Panther said:
I still say that hoarding is a good strategy ONLY because clams (and fetishes, but to a lesser extent) are so woefully underpriced. If they had a proper price attached to them, there would be no discussion.


They are not underpriced at all .
20 turns without a dwarfen hammer , 14 with a dwarfen hammer until they reach break even point .

Add to that that they soak up valuable forge slots .
Either 50 clams per turn or equipment for 7 scs / turn .
Not an easy decision also .

Only for water nations they are really good but otherwise there is always the high risk of flames from the sky .

[alexti]

- Map: Any smaller (not huge) map (Inland, Ringworld, or anything with 8-12 provinces per nation)
- Victory conditions: depends on map: the target is to determine the winner by turn 60-70 (to satisfy hoarders we can stop let's say at turn 60 and calculate the score of each alliance, counting their gold and gem income (including from gem generators) and various assets (maybe averaging over few turns). It's a bit of work, but that's just once, not every turn.
- Diplomacy: probably on, mostly because I don't like restrictions which are hard to enforce.
- In the case of Theater: do you want to keep the forts at the chokepoints? I'm for no forts (mostly because they leave the province undefended).

Essentially, I don't want to commit time to do mindless micromanagement and I'll agree on any settings that eliminate it.

[Alneyan]

The vote will be over by Thursday late afternoon/early evening, GMT (approximatively 48 hours from now).

On a side note, if hoarding items are the problem rather than the size of the map, it should be possible to remove them from the game altogether; setting clams and fetishes to require Earth 5/Death 5 should do the trick. You would be allowed to use them here, but if you have that many gems to throw away, the game is likely already won for you.

Alternatively, a houserule banning clams/fetishes can be set, and the lurking host would inspect turns searching for equipped clams/fetishes. Woe to the player found with such items equipped. I would rather avoid a limiting figure here though, as it would be harder to check by both the players and myself.

An allowance may be needed for Bloodstones; one or two such items could be equipped for their blood bonus, or something of the like. I do not expect a ban on hoarding items to have much support, but who knows.

[WraithLord]

- Map: Any small to medium. not TOW. Inland, Ringworld, IO, tyrnade are cool.
- Victory conditions: Yes.
- Diplomacy: On. agree with alexti. Hard to enforce and this will give an advantage to those who'll insist on hidden diplomacy.
- In the case of Theater: don't mind.

Anyhting that helps towards a fast paced game with little end game micro is good by me.

[YellowCactus]

Map: Abstain

Diplomacy: I want to be able to have diplomacy. It's a valuable part of the game. (Besides, we have no way to enforce this 'gentleman's rule'. That alone makes it a bad rule.) I remember Norfleet.

Victory: Total Annialation! (however you spell it)

[Yvelina]

As it is it is more then inept for hoarding especially since you could look up the starting province numbers in the mapfile and then you would know the enemy capitols without scouting and can try a shoot out of the blue with 5 flames or so . Chances for being successful are quite high since most players leave most of their forgers in their capitol .



You know, I understand you are trying to get your hoardfest, but please do not insult my intelligence. Only a fool keeps her clamholders, forgers, or any mages of note in her capital. Or together, for that matter. Speaking for myself, I use black servants, not scouts, I keep four separate labs with no other mages in them, so that they appear empty, and I keep domes over all of my mages. By the time people are ready to blow a hundred fire gems per turn on artillery spells, I also have a hundred gems invested in domes, hundreds of wolves patrolling the province to elliminate assassins and soak up some of the fire.

And if you doubt this, I can give up the last turnfile of one of my last games. You will see that exact set-up: turn 80 or so, 150+ clams and fetishes, 80+ blood stones, most on black servants, in provinces that look exactly like 30 others. By the time everyone else surrendered, they had given up on using artillery spells, because only one of about 20 actually got through and killed one smith and 20 wolves. A few of the enemy mages met a fiery death, so I think I came better off, all together.

[EDIT] I attached a screenshot of the last turn. The red arrow points to my capital. The Black arrows point to the two provinces where my generator items are held... I am, of course, Vanheim.

Anyway. Our team's votes:

Maps: Inland (no VC) Most fun
ToW (80% of the central isle) Best fighting
Ringworld (no VC) Instant warfare, just add players

Diplomacy: We are willing to trust players to keep all the diplomacy (trash talk, in our case) to this thread.

Castles: We do not care - both ways are fine with us.


Oh, and Petar is to be talking for us from now on. I'm into finals week, and he's the one who enjoys arguments like this one.

[Boron]

Yvelina you may believe it or not i don't want to get my hoardfest . I was more argumenting just with Panther and the other anti-clamhoarders that hoarding is a winning strat and a no-brainer and so on .

After the game started you will see that Aku + me didn't plan a classic hoard approach in the game .
We just want no constricting rules but most possible freedom for all participants .

Both rules on clams and easy to achieve victory conditions are in our option unfair and constricting .

[The Panther]

Boron said:
[They are not underpriced at all .
20 turns without a dwarfen hammer , 14 with a dwarfen hammer until they reach break even point .




Your math is terrible. The actual break even point for a clam is 7 turns without a hammer and 5 turns with a hammer. This is because 7 pearls is worth approximately 10 water gems, imho. Pearls are vastly more useful that water gems, which is why I think this.

And converting 20 pearls back to 10 water just to make another clam is really dumb. The pearls are far better used to make items for your SCs, like resistance and luck and shrouds (if you have a decent bless effect) and skullcaps. Or for archastic record. Or used to empower towards wish if your pretender can't do it. Or building up to arcane nexus. Or any other useful things for pearls besides wasting them on converting to water.

A 5 turn payback (with hammer investment) for making a clam is just plain bad. That is why most good players make lots of pearls as they are able, whether or not they are turtling or hoarding or fighting for territory or defending their own territory. Just about every decent player does this. I know you do.

Besides, by the time someone starts targeting your scouts with lucky artillery spells, you have held your clams for such a long time that it does not hurt that much if you lose a few. I agree with Yvelina on this one, if you have 80 scouts in your capitol all with clams and no domes, then you deserve what you get.

If clams were to cost something closer to their true value, like 3WS1 as suggested by my son, then you WOULD have to consider doing something else with your water gems besides the no-brainer decision to make clams and clams and more clams. It was Norfleet who first pointed out the immense value of a cheap clam. Maybe he was cheating, but he was certainly a darn good player who understood the game even when not cheating.

[Boron]

The Panther said:

Boron said:
[They are not underpriced at all .
20 turns without a dwarfen hammer , 14 with a dwarfen hammer until they reach break even point .




Your math is terrible. The actual break even point for a clam is 7 turns without a hammer and 5 turns with a hammer. This is because 7 pearls is worth approximately 10 water gems, imho. Pearls are vastly more useful that water gems, which is why I think this.


What you say is your subjective feeling . In order to make an objective comparison you have to chose a bench mark and that are water gems .

The Panther said:
Besides, by the time someone starts targeting your scouts with lucky artillery spells, you have held your clams for such a long time that it does not hurt that much if you lose a few. I agree with Yvelina on this one, if you have 80 scouts in your capitol all with clams and no domes, then you deserve what you get.



I mean a completely different situation :

If you really hoarded and the game reaches about turn 80-100 then there will be a point where you exceed 500 hoarditem carriers . Unless you are an underwater nation you can't protect them properly .

I experienced this myself in back to the fray , once Thufir gets active again on the board he will confirm it .
Though he spreaded his approximately 300-400 hoarders Edi and Odd enuf managed to give him severe trouble and kill about 50% of them by artillery spells in a few turns .

Unless you are an underwater nation there is no problem at all with clams . And before the clamhoarder reaches a critical mass of >300 clams and 3 wishcasters the clamhoarder hasn't such a big edge .

The average province is worth about 40 gold and 3 gems income .
Normally the turtling hoarder doesn't go for provinces so if you conquer instead you have e.g. 120 provinces while the hoarder has 30 provinces .
You get about 4800 gold and 360 gems from those provinces , the hoarder gets 1200 gold and 90 gems from his provinces and 300 gems from clams .
So you are of about equal power . Normally you attack the hoarder first and you should be able to do some damage to his hoarders with flames or preventive strike province capturing .

If a player choses to hoard and turtle before turn 70 he is very vulnerable and only after turn 90 he has quickly growing chances of winning .

[Boron]

We could make a poll on the normal board about hoard items how ppl think about them .
I wonder how many % would say they are fine as they are and how many % would want them changed .

If i had to guess about 60% would vote for nerfing and 40% would say they are fine .

[TheBirthdayParty]

I've been trying out the theatre of war map and I can't seem to figure out how to move from the outlying circle of the map where you start to the main land. The map description says you need to own a capital? I own all the provinces in the circle...

[The Panther]

One of your provinces has a connection into the middle.

Go into map filters and click on the box labeled neighbors. Then look at each of your provinces until you find the one that shows a connection.

[PashaDawg]

Map: Ringworld, but I would not stab myself with a samurai sword if we played Theater of War.

Victory Conditions: If Ringworld, then no VC. If Theater of War, then I would vote for some sort of % of the central circle as a victory condition.

Diplomacy: No limitations.

On the issue of choke points in T.O.W., I have no opinion.

[Alneyan]

The following nations have been picked by team 4, 5 and 6: Ulm, Jotunheim and Arcoscephale. I will be sending a mail to the last three teams about their last pick.

The following nations have been taken: Arcoscephale, Caelum, C'tis, Jotunheim, Mictlan, Pangaea, Pythium, Ulm, Vanheim.

And for the vote:
- The map: Inland and ToW are the contenders here, but Inland seems to be the preferred one. So Inland it shall be.
- Diplomacy: It will be on.
- Victory condition: Total Annihilation

[Aku]

Since we are doing inland can we do very hard research so its more regular troop fighting and delay of the sc's and huge battle spells...it will make things more chaotic.

Are score graphs on or off?

[Yvelina]

We vote for standard research.

[TheBirthdayParty]

If we play with hard research there won't be any point in playing, i'll just lay waste to you all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

Research will be standard, unless a majority of players want to increase the research setting to something else.

Scores will be handled as explained earlier in the thread (it is summarised on the first post of the thread): no scores, but vague comments about how the nations are faring.

The first post will be updated soon (adding the map and things of the like to it).

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

No discussions: Standart research.

[PashaDawg]

How is the nation selecting going?

[Alneyan]

The nation picks are now over. I will be sending a mail soon asking all players to create and send their Pretenders: if you have received nothing within the hour, you should start to worry (I may have forgotten your mail, or the Internet Void has struck again).

The teams can now be revealed, as we will be playing with diplomacy on:
- Aku and Boron: Pangaea + Abysia
- Alexti and Izaqyos: Vanheim + Jotunheim
- CUnknown and YellowCactus: Mictlan + Ulm
- Dragon11 and PashaDawg: Pythium + Ermor
- GriffinOfBuerrig and TheBirthdayParty: C'tis + Marignon
- Tuidjy and Yvelina : Caelum + Arcoscephale

[WraithLord]

Can someone please point me to pretender 2.0 mod?

thanks.

edit: found it in first post.

[Aku]

OMG Why for the love of god did pythium pick ermor? Is there some reason a living nation wants a death nation?

(Don't mind me...I am just disgruntled over losing the Ermor pick of getting Pan CW + Ermor)

[PashaDawg]

Maybe the choice was strategic to prevent a super-death team. Hee hee. Or, maybe Tom and I are fools... lawyers, but fools in the Dominions world, nonetheless.... (Actually, I might actually bet on that conclusion, but I think Tom would beat me to it.) /threads/images/Graemlins/icon07.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/egg.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon07.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/egg.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon07.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/egg.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Aku]

Now you two would really be insane if you do what Boron and I joked about with your two nation picks in regards to the themes you have available.

But yeah you did stop the uber death team. Boron and I were so close to getting Ermor. We did a big gamble and lost it big lol. We luckily got Abysia because nobody chose it for some reason. If we didn't get Abysia we would really be in terrible shape but it still will be very different from the game style Boron and I thought we would be playing.

Well Pasha you stopped also the Ctis team from getting Ermor as well so lets see how things play out. Will you use one of the undead themes of ermor? Will Ctis use Desert Tombs? Will Pangaea use Carrion Woods? Who knows we may all go death and make the game very chaotic lmfao.

Boron and I will submit pretenders tomorrow, we need another day to discuss wtf we are going to do lol.

[PashaDawg]

Gosh! You and Boron got it goin'!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Dragonfire and I might as well make flash cards with various magical paths, etc., throw them up into the air and base our pretenders on the pretty patterns the cards make when they land. /threads/images/Graemlins/Target.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon46.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/heart.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon46.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon20.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon46.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon21.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon46.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon22.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Target.gif

But, you better watch out!! I am still shopping for the right paddle to get Boron back for what he did to the Mad Spider Lord. <http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif froth, froth, wheeze http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif> Maybe I will find it in a Pythium Shop of Curiosities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[alexti]

Overall, the nations picks were not what I expected at all:

I'm really surprised that nobody wanted to pick Caelum and Vanheim. Especially considering that the map could have been Theater of War, where Caelum could have probably been playing alone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Then, why Caelumites didn't choose Machaka as a pair? Not that Caelum + Arcoscephale is weak or anything, but how one would counter Caelum + Machaka? Machaka takes red dragon fire-9 and expands like crazy with their spider using Caelum's spare gold, who just keep buying seraphs and researching. By the time somebody can field against spiders (early on even pretenders has trouble dealing with spiders), Caelum's seraphs will start dropping all over the place with lightining and false horrors. Ermor/C'tis could try undead spam vs spiders, but unfortunately for them, Machaka's best squad leaders are priests http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Interestingly, that despite of all air-hype, 3 pairs didn't choose air nations at all (unless Marignon will be conqueror's of the sea). Being last I didn't expect to get Vanheim.

Meanwhile, who deserves a point for style? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I nominate
- Rise and Fall (Ermor and Pythium)
- When the Winter comes... (Vanheim and Jotunheim)

[Aku]

Comon me and Boron deserve a lot of credit...we had first pick and we chose PANGAEA LMFAO!!!!

We did a huge gamble in hopes that nobody was insane enough to pick ermor but Pasha unfortunately is lmfao. Now we have to make due of the situation and hope not to die swiftly lol.

[Boron]

Aku said:
Comon me and Boron deserve a lot of credit...we had first pick and we chose PANGAEA LMFAO!!!!

We did a huge gamble in hopes that nobody was insane enough to pick ermor but Pasha unfortunately is lmfao. Now we have to make due of the situation and hope not to die swiftly lol.


Yeah lol .
I really wonder which themes the Mighty Spider Lord and his companion choose .

Imo you would have roxxored though if you picked just Pythium + Abysia and we could have had our unholy alliance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PashaDawg]

Boron said:
I really wonder which themes the Mighty Spider Lord and his companion choose .

Imo you would have roxxored though if you picked just Pythium + Abysia and we could have had our unholy alliance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Are you suggesting a trade? Would that be permitted? Hee hee. (Probably would be against the rules.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Boron]

PashaDawg said:

Boron said:
I really wonder which themes the Mighty Spider Lord and his companion choose .

Imo you would have roxxored though if you picked just Pythium + Abysia and we could have had our unholy alliance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Are you suggesting a trade? Would that be permitted? Hee hee. (Probably would be against the rules.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif



I wouldn't mind a trade yeah http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

On the other hand i am tensed to see if i can do anything with pan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . Never played them so far and always rated them in my own nation ranking among 5 worst nations but i will see now if this is really true or if pan is not as bad as i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[The_Tauren13]

There's always Broken Empire Ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Then you can have hordes of undead spreading growth and order everywhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif like me in King of the Hill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Yvelina]

> Rise and Fall (Ermor and Pythium)
> When the Winter comes... (Vanheim and Jotunheim)

But only if you guys start fighting each other on turn one. Jotun and Vanir are bitter enemies, just like Pythium and Ermor.

We are not too happy with our race selection. Especially now that I know could have had my Vanheim, had Peter not thought that if it had not gotten picked by four teams, team six would pass it as well. I have played Arcocephales exactly once and Caelum is slow starter; I am not sure that we will be able to easily stop a uber-bless team.

But this game promises to be very interesting, that's for sure. I just wish there was no diplomacy.

[PashaDawg]

Why no diplomacy, Yvelina?

[YellowCactus]

Uber Bless.....
<Cough Cough>
-yc

[PashaDawg]

Uber-bless?

Me = dumb.

Please... help me... before I start rereading "Beyond Good & Evil" for clues.

[Aku]

Probably referring to some nations may try to go with a bless strat and rush like with a f9 bless and rampage the indies to get lots of land fast.

[alexti]

Yvelina said:
> Rise and Fall (Ermor and Pythium)
> When the Winter comes... (Vanheim and Jotunheim)

But only if you guys start fighting each other on turn one. Jotun and Vanir are bitter enemies, just like Pythium and Ermor.



Jotuns and Vanir were used to fight each other before emergence of man. Later they have made the peace.


Yvelina said:
We are not too happy with our race selection. Especially now that I know could have had my Vanheim, had Peter not thought that if it had not gotten picked by four teams, team six would pass it as well.


It could have been passed if you didn't pick Caelum. Caelum was our first pick, not Vanheim. I would be really surprised though if the last team would get Caelum, after all those discussions about Caelum's superiority http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Realistically, I thought we'd get Mictlan.


[/quote]


Yvelina said:
I have played Arcocephales exactly once and Caelum is slow starter; I am not sure that we will be able to easily stop a uber-bless team.


Considering that nobody picked Machaka, probably people are not interested in Uber-bless strategies. Some may still change their mind though. Thinking about it, uber-blessed Niefels were rumoured to be quite good.

[The Panther]

I had thought a uber-bless strategy was taking level 9 in two schools, like W9F9 and totally trashing your scales.

[YellowCactus]

Wow....
Two Level 9 Blessings would really trash your scales. Never thought of that!
-Yc

[Alneyan]

I guess uber-blessings could include three levels 9 blessings as well. Now we are talking about a very nice blessing, though your scales are unlikely to be that impressive. I wonder if it would be possible to get four level 9 blessings and adequate Dominion levels on the same Pretender. Hmm...

[Alneyan]

I have finished working on the map now, and it is more crowded than I would have expected. All teams start within three provinces (by the shortest path) of at least three other teams, as I could simply not make it work with a minimal distance of four provinces between everyone.

Teammates start right to each other, but the location of the other teams will be unknown (meaning the .map file will not be sent to the players).

[Tuidjy]

Right next to each other? Not even a province in between capitals? Poor Mictlan.

Yvelina and I anticipated that there would be a problem and made sure our
domains are matched. I hope no one else did :-)

[Alneyan]

I think Mictlan is fine, so long as they have the same Dominion value as the other capital. At least, a Dominion 1 Mictlan kept Dominion alive against its Dominion 1 ally.

It could be a problem however, so I guess I will have to figure out how to make it so there is one province between the two capitals.

[Alneyan]

On second thoughts, and after having looked at the map more closely (praised be Illwinter for the Eyes of God spell!), it looks like putting one province between the two capitals should not be so difficult.

Would it be enough to avoid having one teammate kill the other because of Dominion?

[alexti]

I would suggest to spread out capitals more or less evenly. Alliances would effect positions only by making sure that everybody's ally is one of his neighbours

[Alneyan]

I am not sure I like the idea of spreading capitals around: there will still be not that much room where to put capitals, and I think some nations would start with fewer neighbours (in those slightly harder to travel places) than the others.

[Aku]

If inland is a pain in the *** maybe we should use theatre of war or any other bigger map maybe.

[Alneyan]

Any map other than Theater of War will have the same problem, in worse: it is simply difficult to set up twelve starting positions without boxing in someone. And Theater of War failed to win enough support in the vote.

I have revised the map file by putting one province between the two capitals of the same team, and will now be checking if the map remains roughly balanced (I think it will be fine, but better make sure).

I have all Pretender files except Jotunheim.

[Alneyan]

After some checking (my first revision was so great someone ended up closer to an enemy capital than to the allied capital), I have ended up with the final version of the .map file.

Its characteristics are as follow: there is one province between the two capitals of the same team, and at least one capital of each team can reach the five other teams in three or four provinces (via the shortest route). There does not seem to be any imbalance, and all starting provinces are connected with several land provinces (at least four, more likely five).

In other words, you may expect some early tension with your neighbours, as everybody should be close to all the other teams. We shall see how it plays out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

The game has just started. If you did not get a mail, please let me know as soon as possible.

Two mails were actually sent to most people (Yvelina and Tuidjy excepted, as I noticed my mistake while making their mail), as I had forgotten to put the turn files *before* sending the mails the first time around, so I sent my template mails instead.

[PashaDawg]

YeeeeHawwwww!!

[The Panther]

PashaDawg said:
YeeeeHawwwww!!



Wow! You want to die so much that you are eager that the game has started??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

By the way, I noticed in randomosity that you were unable to kill, per your very own words, the 'Spawn of the Panther'.

heh heh

Seriously, though, good luck and play hard, my friend. I would actually like to see the lawyers win this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Yvelina]

Oh, come on Panther! Lawyers win pretty much anything else, why should they win this game as well?

Of course, our team wants to be on the good side of lawyers, how about a non-agression pact, esteemed defenders of law and justice? We could definitely use someone who can convince everyone else that we are peaceful researchers as opposed to landgrabbing powermongers...

[Alneyan]

"Dear Yvelina,

We have received your inquiry regarding the services we provide to all distinguished players, and thank you for the confidence you are expressing towards our Committee. One of our products would be remarkably well suited to your needs: it would consist of advising all the other players about the weakness of your nation, for few would dare question the word of an host.

For example, the following message could be sent late in the game: 'Arcoscephale is a most friendly realm, dedicated solely to the pursuit of knowledge. Old hegemonic pretensions have been discarded with the coming of a new age, and the only lands in their possession are sites of great archeological interest. Their army is a mere militia, and their best mage is barely able to light up a fire on a sunny day. All in all, a most pleasant realm to live in, so long as you are not interest in reckless expansionism, and willing to give a helping hand to repel those invaders: chances are, you will be the best fighter protecting the city.' (First published in the Hitchhiker's Guide.)

Of course, there is the small matter of fees and similar petty squabbling, but we are confident you will find our service to be admirable. You should also expect us not to abuse our position of de facto monopoly; fairness is, after all, a hallmark of us.

Yours sincerly,
The Committee of Opportunist Hosts."

Silliness aside, everything seems to be working fine. Good luck to all the teams!

[PashaDawg]

The Panther said:

PashaDawg said:
YeeeeHawwwww!!



Wow! You want to die so much that you are eager that the game has started??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

By the way, I noticed in randomosity that you were unable to kill, per your very own words, the 'Spawn of the Panther'.

heh heh

Seriously, though, good luck and play hard, my friend. I would actually like to see the lawyers win this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Bah!! The PantherSpawn failed to understand that if he killed me that I would only become more powerful than he could possibly imagine... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PashaDawg]

Yvelina said:
Oh, come on Panther! Lawyers win pretty much anything else, why should they win this game as well?

Of course, our team wants to be on the good side of lawyers, how about a non-agression pact, esteemed defenders of law and justice? We could definitely use someone who can convince everyone else that we are peaceful researchers as opposed to landgrabbing powermongers...



</threads/images/Graemlins/icon41.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon41.gif ears perking up /threads/images/Graemlins/icon41.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon41.gif> And would your team be prepared to pledge adequate security to assure prompt payment of our customary fee? I would be happy to draft the necessary documents for your signature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[DragonFire11]

I've been a little late in reading these posts. Uber bless? Folks, how ever did ya'll learn so much about this game. Aside from Panther that is, those engineers once they build in the bugs in a system it's a good decade of leisure time to "trouble shoot" (i.e. drink beer and play games). I don't even have a clue what normal bless does -- I simply order my priests to do it b/c they have nothing better to do. Anyway, I suppose this is the normal time to trash talk and all, but I really need a victory under my belt before talking smack. Ah what the hell, we’re going to kick your collective butts!!! (Maybe. Possibly.)

[The Panther]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I needed a laugh this morning, and this thread certainly provided it for me!

Keep up the commentary when you all can.

Oh yeah, us engineers know how to design bugs into things. We refer to it as 'job security'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[YellowCactus]

I'm impressed Alenyan.
Five turn of 12 players and no stales. Your doing a great job with running this game!
-Cheers, yc

[PashaDawg]

Yup! Cheers to Alenyan!! /threads/images/Graemlins/Martini.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/beerglass.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Martini.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Martini.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/beerglass.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Can.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Can.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Martini.gif

[Yvelina]

Alenyan did an awesome job picking players, and making sure the game did not start until everyone knew what she was getting into. We will not have stales, I think, until teams start getting crushed, and even then, with a map this small, once one is broken, it will be a short road to demise.

But... there is a itty bitty problem. The two of us will go to Vegas to see the Queen show, and it is not clear whether we will be disciplined enough to take our turns. We will try to make it, but...

[YellowCactus]

Hehe.
You'd have to have an 'iron will' to achieve that standard turn scheduling in Vegas! I'm all for playing on only when all turns are in.
-Yc

[Alneyan]

Well, I am not responsible for the lack of stale turns in the game. We may hope not to see the tail of a stale turn: I think there was only one staled turn in King of the Hill, after fifty turns (so 300 turn files received).

Yvelina and Tuidjy, feel free to submit your detailed instructions if you would have me play your turns while in Vegas. While I am usually not such an amazing player (*Coughs*), I should be able to follow orders without too much trouble.

[PashaDawg]

The Great Pythium God has no objection to putting the game on hold while Y & T are playing in Las Vegas. However, how do you have a Queen concert without Freddy Mercury?

[TheBirthdayParty]

Could the team with Ulm e-mail me please?

[alexti]

PashaDawg said:
The Great Pythium God has no objection to putting the game on hold while Y & T are playing in Las Vegas. However, how do you have a Queen concert without Freddy Mercury?


I suppose they've researched to ritual of rebirth...

[Alneyan]

TheBirthdayParty said:
Could the team with Ulm e-mail me please?



*Grumbles* Looks like someone forgot to send the roster along with the mails. Wonder who it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I will send a list of all players and their teams along with next turn.

[YellowCactus]

So, Alneyan...
Do we run a turn today or are we waiting for Queen in Las Vegas?
-Yc

[Alneyan]

Well, I haven't heard any objection about waiting for them, so I guess I will wait for a while longer. Does anyone know when that show will happen, or when Yvelina and Tuidjy plan to return?

[YellowCactus]

Crossing fingers that this game continues to be a blast. Its only turn 7 and nothing spectacular is happening, No good luck, no bad luck, no wars...but the diplomacy has been incredible. Expecially between my team-mate and I. Movements are co-ordinated at a much stricter level than ever and tasks for THE EMPIRE are deligated to the most capable faction.
I enjoyed the rumor mill that the host sent out in leu of the power bars. Nice Nice Nice. This one has the feel of a board game with lots of care to the details.
Game on!
-yc

[YellowCactus]

Alneyan,
The Ulm/Mictlan turn should have come in right about now. Several Factions have just found each other and we're all deciding weather the time is right to club each other with national troops and alteration spells, or smile for a few years to get the good Tartarian beat-down going. I think the Mail delay is more from Team's "Getting they're heads together" than from idly ignoring the 12 hours until hosting....
-Yc

[Alneyan]

Why, go and beat them with your national troops! Early wars are a tried and true strategy: every single time I used it, I got trashed, so it must be good. I am merely unable of pulling it out without being blown out from the skies.

Slightly more seriously, the status mail is sent 24 hours before the deadline no matter what happens, and is mostly here to let the players who have uploaded that their turn is in and the others that they have 24 hours before hosting. It is also nice to check that all player files work, and that no player sent a .trn file instead of a .2h, among other things.

But since I am fairly lazy, those status mails are direct and to the point, so no attention should be given to the form of those mails. I simply give the appropriate information, throw in a subject and a verb to get something looking like a proper sentence, and voilà! the status mail is ready.

[Yvelina]

Guys, I extend an appology from Petar and I. We have been total flakes so far, especially as diplomacy goes. Those who have played us before know that even when we are arrogant, we try to do it without skimping on the effort.

Right now, we are just starved for time. We will get on it once I am back in Strasbourg. For now, I just want to say - we are both backing off towards our capitals, and we will not expand in the directions where our pretenders were going when they fought other players troops. All messages will be answered, just later, ok?

[YellowCactus]

Some Folks have asked for information about this game as it progresses. Obviously some aspects of each empire need to remain unobserved. However I think it'd be cool to say a little about your team and how things are going.

Ulm/Mictlan- The Blood Empire
This fledgling nation borders six factions. Ulm'lan diplomacy has been more effective in some provinces than others. Total war with Caelum and Acroscephale was narrowly avoided by both parties as expanding armies rattled sabres across a ice covered mountain range.
The Nation of Pan-bysia lays upon another border, these industrious folk have a strong dominion and seem to betotally peaceful lovers of Nature and hellish flames. A rather odd lot, but who are we to complain. All remains quiet there.
The distant Empire of Jotun-Van remains almost a mystery, though the most daring of Ulmish traders have found they're way to the frozen lands of this distant Empire.
The Blood empire is virtually ignorant of the C'ti-Gnonian peoples. A brazen scout from marignon was captured within the ulmish capitol. Unfortunately the spy died while under interigation of overzealous templars. We would wish these peoples peace and continued distance.
Relations with Erm-ithia have not as of yet developed. Though speaking with the dead is rarely fruitful, we hold no particular disdain for the strangest marriage of factions known through the ages.
Overall, the Blood Empire is strong and taking root within many provinces. While no other faction has shown itself as 'Enemy', we continue with caution. Several other empires are within striking range, as our ripe pastures are equally open to evil raiders of false gods.
-Yc

[Alneyan]

My little band of Seers are delighted by your summary YellowCacti.

I was thinking of pasting the rumours in this thread as well. They are fairly cryptic and ominous, so I guess they would be the words of some prophet. Incidentally, if you would like to send a rumour, feel free to do so (or the gist of a rumour).


The highlights after turn 6:
- The realm of Vanheim is the biggest in the known world, and their wealth is second only to the Iron Kingdom of Ulm.
- Pythium and Pangaea have been blessed with an abundance of magic jewels.
- Caelum remains the most enlightened realm in the world, and their knowledge of arcana is unparalleled.
- The land of Ermor is a place of great importance for the spirituality; nowhere else is the power of a Pretender greater than in their realm.
- The armies of Mictlan and Ermor are the most numerous at present.


The highlights for turn 7:
- The Sibling realm of Pythium and the Blazing realm of Abysia are the smallest in the known world; these nations seem content with their ancient possessions.
- Ermor is the poorest land in the realm, where even copper is worth a small king's ransom.
- The Iron realm of Ulm, the Antediluvian realm of Arcoscephale, the Fiery realm of Marignon and the Northern Marches of Jotunheim are the lands where fewest magic jewels can be found.
- The Fiery realm of Marignon is the place where knowledge is the least pursued, perhaps as a side result of the work of the Inquisition.
- The deities of Mictlan have the least power among their subjects, surely because they require much more of their believers than those soft Goddesses and Gods do.
- The army of Caelum is the smallest in the world; the Caelites are said to have lost any taste for weapons they might have had, and perhaps all measure of courage they ever had.


Turn 8:
Everything seems so quiet now that fall is coming to an end. With the ever shortening days and the white mantle of winter spreading over the land, warfare should come to an end... or so was hoped.

Rumours of an unlikely union between the two realms of the Northern Marches, Jotunheim and Vanheim, were becoming more common. Together, the Northern realms hold more land than any other, and winter will certainly not prevent them from expanding their holdings further. It appears that blood will dot the snow after all.


Turn 9:
During those long nights in the heart of winter, the common folk gather by the fireplace, exchanging stories to raise their spirit. Where the harvest was bountiful, a few prayers in glory to the One can be heard, thanking the Pretender for this new found abundance. Where food is scarce, the One is called upon in the hopes of better days to come.

Boasts about the greatness of one's nation are frequent, regardless of the actual welfare of the realm; but not all the braggarts have equal reason to be so content. Bold would be the one claiming to know the future, for there was no telling which realm would be first to fall; when faced by the cold iron and the fury of magic, pride means so little.


Turn 10:
The longest day was over, and the grip of winter was weakening day after day. Many times the sun would rise and fall before the green hues of spring would arrive, as all were reminded by the biting cold in the mornings. Soothsayers spoke of this year as the Bittersweet winter, an herald of the times to come, and of the increasing strength of the Icy Gods.

The weather was not the only reason for some of the shivers that were felt this year however. Dire tidings from the Sibling realm of Pythium were brought by travellers; their words were not for the wonders of Pythium, often called the jewel of civilisation and humankind, but for the battles that were fought near the city. Some had it Pythium itself had already been sacked, others claimed the invaders had been crushed; each time the story was told, the fate of Pythium changed.

On one thing did the rumours agree: that Pythium could be endangered thus, or fall so swiftly, was no good omen for the future.

[Steerpike]

Bravo Alneyan a beautiful post indeed, it created images and made me long for more.

Should be more of this and less of the numbers say I.

[PashaDawg]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif The rumors of Great Pythium's immanent demise are pure SMUT spewed by our jealous rivals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Alneyan]

The Association of Travelling Rumourmongers may not be sued on any ground whatsoever; the information is provided free of charge without any guarantee regading its validity, as evidenced by the fine print coming with all our rumours.

We nonetheless provide top-notch intelligence to all interested clients, but that would cost a small extra, and a tiny bribe to solve "matters of conscience of an honest host". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

As word from Pythium grew scarce, they faded away from the prime concerns of the people: never the prideful Pythium had fallen to an enemy, strong in the confort of her walls. And whatever their fate was, precious little could be done. Rather, the closer neighbours were becoming a concern. While in the past borders were held by mild hirelings, lords and even royalty were now strengthening their hold on their provinces. Sometimes the quill determined where the border between two realms was to be; other times the sword solved such disputes. Peace still reigned, but already skirmishes occurred, and talk of war could be heard among the bolder soldiers.

Winter was coming to an end, more sharply than in known memory: it was as hot as in springtime, flowers were blossoming, and the land was almost wakening. A fiery cult was gaining in influence, or so was said; others spoke of the ever-burning pyres of Abysia, where more of their folk worked than was usual, and the ones with the "inner flame" were often sighted far from their birthplace. But late blizzards brought the painful reminder that winter was not over yet; Abyssians were not the only ones having such power as to alter the weather of the land.

[YellowCactus]

Did the turn run? huhuhu?
-yc

[Alneyan]

It is scheduled to run in exactly 23 minutes and counting (2000 GMT, so 2100 my time). Problem is, I am still missing turns for two teams, so it will likely be delayed.

[YellowCactus]

Among the taverns of Ulm-Lan patrons grumble about lazy Ulmish Knights who spend too much time picking the King's apples and lounging in the Sun. All is dispicably peaceful, and entertainment is focused within a few arenas spread about the lands.
-Yc

[alexti]

Did anybody receive yesterday turn? I've got nothing. Has it been hosted?

[Steerpike]

I havn't recieved it.

[YellowCactus]

Perhaps some industrious youth could e-mail the Host?
-Yc

[Alneyan]

My DSL died on me, hence the delay. The turn has just run, and will reach you in a short while (though the rumour will be sent later on, once I am done with catching up).

[YellowCactus]

Alneyan, However you want to run the rumors is fine with me. They are delightful and enrich the game.
-Yc

[CUnknown]

Even other Pretenders, not yet threatened with destruction, had met death; only lucky Pretenders had managed to avoid the most traumatic experience. Worst of all, such deaths were often made with mundane steel, by commoners: it seemed that even powerful Pretenders could still be killed by mortal soldiers, with no specific outfit. Such were those trouble times: a world where goddesses and gods were made and were killed.


I can't hold it in anymore.

Bwhahahah!! This was so funny..

[YellowCactus]

If I'd known Acroscepale had twenty-nine mystics with a banner of the north star, we could have perhaps spoken about an extended peace!
-Yc

[YellowCactus]

OUCH!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

[CUnknown]

Hush, at least you're not Marignon, YC.

I can't believe I killed his god with an earth attack, hehe. That just shouldn't happen..

[YellowCactus]

Look,
Stop messin' around with the fanatical Marignoners.....We gots Giants ta slay!
-Yc

[CUnknown]

We're just talking back and forth to each other, YC! Someone else post on this page!!!

[Alneyan]

Keep in mind the Wisdom of the Ancients, YC and CU: "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" You will understand the wisdom of those words as soon as the turn runs. *Sniggers*

[YellowCactus]

Erm, Hear that Cunknown....
Somebody's gonna cast a spell on you!

[CUnknown]

I think you sent the files from last turn, Alneyan.

[Alneyan]

I did. It had been such a long time since I last made a mistake when sending the turns, I had to do it again. Updated turns should have reached you by now.

[CUnknown]

Thanks a lot for hosting this game, Alneyan, you've been doing a great job!

[YellowCactus]

Nice co-ordination fellows. Think Mictlan alone lost ten provinces! Why all the hate?
-Yc

[CUnknown]

I have to object to Alneyan playing Van/Jot. If they quit the game, make their factions AI controlled. It's not fair to YC and me.

[Alneyan]

I would much rather let someone else play them than turn them AI; we all know how the AI is - dumb, and worse, likely to just attack Pangaea or Abysia, a decision that nobody in their right minds would take.

Any decision on the matter will be up to Abysia/Pangaea however. If they would rather put someone else in charge, there is also the issue of rerunning the turn: there were two major battles in Vanheim/Jotunheim, and those should be left to the new player. In this case, all players would not get to change their orders, of course, and the new player would have no access to the current outcome of the battles.

[CUnknown]

Okay, well, we can leave it as is for now. It is cool that you are taking such an interest in a game you're not even playing! Definitely you are the best host ever.

I just really want to win, that's all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'll calm down about it now.

[CUnknown]

Um.. is this game over?

I think that Pan/Abyssia have a decent shot, especially if Alneyan is playing Van/Jot.

I think we should keep playing unless the other side doesn't think they have a shot. Both Mictlan and I took major losses last turn, although we're both still very strong.

[Alneyan]

I have to agree with you CU: from what I do know of Pangaea and Abysia, they have a lot of resources, and should be able to do something to slow you down. I cannot force them to go on though, unless someone else happens to be interested in taking them over.

I believe the main threat (in terms of military power) is Mictlan, but that could be just because I have a much easier time dealing with Ulmish armies (especially when using someone's else battle tactics) than Mictlan elite commanders. Still, I think there are ways to take down those Mictlanese armies... though victory, of course, is another matter altogether.

[Alneyan]

The game is now over, with Mictlan and Ulm being the winners.

Attached to this post is the archive of all the turns in the game, along with the orders issued by all players (in the case of turn 43, only the turn files are in, as this turn was the last in the game). The master password is Eleanor.

[YellowCactus]

I looked through the turn files from the last turn. That's a nice bit of record keeping Alenyan. Your Awesome. Abyssia was at Blood 9. Pan had a nice 'mid-game' summons strategy going. Van and Jot were dug in. I think though that Mictlan (Also at Blood 9) would have started getting the demon lords before Abyssia. Ulm, in my opinion was underestimated. Cunknown is a great player. He had a steady strategy with earth attacks, and they would only get worse. Also, Tartarian production had begun. With his chalice and exceptional forging capacity, Ulm would be fielding tartarians en masse. Once some pressure was put to Abyssia, it's blood income would diminish and Mictlan-Ulm would have won. This isn't 100%. But I feel confident after looking through the files. Great game. All players put a full effort into the game. This one was so much fun. Jotenheim was a good sport! I did him wrong, though our destinies were not entwined.
-Yc

[Boron]

@ YC:
Abysia was already quite crippled on turn 43 after Chris retaliated.
There was no way to keep the blood flowing anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

Your strat was really awesome.

[WraithLord]

I browsed the game's turns.
Takes forever to do so. I wish IW will add a replay feature to the game.

My take,
I think Mictlan and Ulm worked out the best pair strategy, in that they complemented each other to make a strong duo.

Also, had I not agreed to that deal with Mictlan (which he didn't respect) game might have turned out differently.
I'm not complaining though, just wanted to put this on the table.

[Boron]

izaqyos said:
My take,
I think Mictlan and Ulm worked out the best pair strategy, in that they complemented each other to make a strong duo.




Yep they had the most innovative combo.
Me + Aku wanted to do Pan CW + Ermor we didn't think someone else takes Ermor when Pan is already taken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PashaDawg]

Hee hee.