new game: two versus two -- After Action Reports

[Zooko]

My brother and I will be a team, and I hereby invite one other team of two people. We are minimally experienced -- we've played many short multiplayer games against one another, and I've played two multiplayer games against other people from this bulletin board.

The following settings are all negotiable:

* All of the latest Zen's Conceptual Balance Mods. Although since they aren't really documented yet I'm not sure of the wisdom of this.
* The Desert Eye map
* 48-hour quickhost, and we'll set it to 72-hour quickhost if anyone requests it.
* Strength of Independents: 9
* Special Site Frequency: 75
* Hall of Fame entries: 15

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

I am in.

I have played some Hotseatmatches and many Singleplayer - i lack of multiexperience - but i am in.

My ICQ: 271841002

[Zooko]

Well, if there is a pair of players who want to be on a team together, then I will take those two instead of you. Hopefully some other individual player will offer to be your teammate and then we'll be ready!

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

okay

[Legacyspy]

Hey griffin, I too have a lack of multiepxerince but I would like to join you, as long as this isn't pbem

[Legacyspy]

Hey griffin, I too have a lack of multiepxerince but I would like to join you, as long as this isn't pbem. I too have played hotseat and single, and just got killed in my first mp game.

[Zooko]

Okay, everyone download Zen's Conceptual Balance Mods from here:

http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/

and follow the installation instructions here:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB74&Number=296181&fpart= &PHPSESSID=

Get the Pretender Mod 2.0, the Spells Mod 1.8, and the Scales Mod 1.1.

You have to enable all three mods in the preferences before creating your god.

Also we should agree on what the settings are before you create your god, because your god creation strategy might be different depending on the settings and map.

[Zooko]

Oh, and what nations will you play? I was thinking of playing Arcoscephale, but I would also be happy with Ulm, Man, Marignon, Pythium, Jotumheim, Vanheim, Machaka, ...

[Zooko]

I propose Strength of Independents 3 instead of 9.

With 9, there is more luck involved in early game. It's less fair.

[Zooko]

Hm. I just played a few rounds of single-player with independent strength 3 and it was sort of boring -- you could almost treat independent provinces as empty provinces and just attack with whatever army you had nearby.

How about independent strength 6?

[Legacyspy]

I like 9

[Legacyspy]

I would like man/ctiss, I can never make up my mind.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Hi,

Lagacyspy an i will take some time to talk now and then we will post our descion(what race) here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Zooko]

Take your time. I guess part of the fun of a team game is taking your time to lay your nefarious schemes. >:-}

[Zooko]

Okay, Strength of Independents will be 9.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

What research: medium i guess...:)

[Zooko]

Yeah, I vote for standard research.

[Legacyspy]

I am thinking I will take ctiss

[Zooko]

Here is the README telling what changes the Pretenders mods makes to pretenders:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/remlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=483&F_Board=UBB74&Thread= 326023&Main=296181

[Zooko]

Hm. Since Legacyspy is thinking of being C'tis, I am thinking of a strategy that provides protection from poison. (That is: sacred troops and a Nature-9 pretender.) Would that be cheating?

Maybe each team should agree on their nation/god strategy secretly and then we should simultaneously reveal it. :-)

Can the Priestesses of Arcoscephale heal Disease? I think not.

--Zooko

[Legacyspy]

Are we using just the pretender mods or all the balance mods?

[Alneyan]

The Priestesses should be able to heal diseases, though it may take a little while as Diseased units can get all sorts of additional afflictions. On the other hand, I think Heal happens before further afflictions are created, so it should work all right.

Heal can remove all afflictions besides starvation and the ones created by wielded items, although some afflictions may be harder to cure than others (the Never Healing Wound for example).

[Zooko]

Let's use all the balance mods -- Pretender, Spells, and Scales. You can read each mod file itself to see what it does.

[Zooko]

Thanks, Alneyan. I've never managed to heal a Never Healing Wound yet.

[Legacyspy]

I know what they do, I was just curious. I always prefer using them.

[arc]

Hi y'all I'm the junior member of team Zooko. I like mictlan, caelum, ulm, and I'd like to try some aquatic nations. I have the mods, but I don't know what any of them do!! Whelp off to play with the modded Version of DII.

[dzbabi]

Hi, i write for Griffin, he is not able to login this weekend he guess: He will take phyton(that guys with Hydras)

He asks for a rich world?

[Zooko]

I don't care about the world wealth level. How about arc and Legacyspy: what level of wealth in the world?

If there is a tie on your votes for the world-wealth level, I'll decide.

[Zooko]

Here is the README for the scales mod.

ScalesMod 1.

First. The scalemod. The Stock are the unmodified values and Mod are the modified values replacing the stock. Rareevents is the likelyhood of the higher caliber of Luck events (Random Events are divided into two types, common and rare) per event.

Code:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Scale Stock Mod

Order/Turmoil Gold 7% Gold 6%
Productivity/Sloth Gold 2% Gold 4%
Resources 10% Resources 15%
Heat/Cold Gold 5% Gold 7%
Growth/Death Gold 2% Gold 4%
Population .02% Population .03%
Luck/Misfortune Event 10% Event 13%
RareEvent 15% RareEvent 20%
</pre><hr />

[Zooko]

Okay, I set up the server:

IP: yumyum.zooko.com
port: 9999

Map: The Dessert Eye
Strength of Independents 9
Magical Site Frequency 75
World Richness: Rich

[Zooko]

Write to zooko@zooko.com and give me your e-mail address. I will set it so that whenever a new turn is generated, the server sends you an e-mail.

[Legacyspy]

K i know what race im taking, I will upload it.

[Zooko]

Okay! I am playing Jotunheim, arc is playing Arcoscephale, Legacyspy is playing Marignon, and Griffin isn't in yet.

If I get around to it, I will set the server so that you can start the game yourself. Currently it is set to start automatically after some time has passed, which I guess could be a problem if Griffin can't connect all weekend...

I haven't received e-mail addresses from Legacyspy or Griffin to get notifications of new turns.

[Zooko]

Okay, I set the server to be startable by players, so as soon as Griffin joins then anyone can start the server and take their first turn! I added Legacyspy's e-mail address to the list so he'll receive a notification when a new turn is ready.

[arc]

Whoo-hoo!!! I'm in!!

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Where to upload my pretender?

[Manuk]

Im in if there is enough room

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

What is im?

[Legacyspy]

Me and griffin are at a major disadvatage. Since you 2 are playing hotseat, you 2 can view each others screens, we cant. So basicly it is Me and Griffin have a NAP while you too are closer to allied.

[Zooko]

No, I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, and arc lives in Boulder, Colorado, USA.

I want to figure out how we can watch each other's turns, though, possibly by sending .trn files to one another?

I'm going to ask around on the board.

Obviously, Legacyspy and Griffin could do the same if they wanted.

[Zooko]

http://67.19.30.83/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=326580&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=#Post326580

[Zooko]

I've restarted the game since Griffin had some kind of problem which caused his moves to be ignored on the server. I posted this advice:

Here's the way that I do my turns:

connect to server
click on your nation name, etc., until you see the "messages for God So-And-So"
exit the messages and choose "options" -&gt; "quit without saving"
now choose "play existing game" and choose the game named "2v2" in the list of games.
after you're satisfied with your moves, hit "e" to end,
then, connect to server again. When you connect, it will upload your moves.


except, the game is no longer named "2v2". Now it is named "2v2-restart".

[Legacyspy]

Where is this option to quite with out saving?

[Zooko]

"options", I believe

[dzbabi]

Heda,

Griffin here, yes with this system it works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Fine!

[dzbabi]

Heyda, Griffin here: Now everything works fine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[arc]

Hey it looks like they're one or two more players interested. What about two vs. two vs. two?

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Ok, but i think we play this game to the end, we can open another one too i think.

[Zooko]

two vs. two vs. two is inconsistent with my idea about proper incentive for conflict, although it is consistent with my idea about proper situation for socialization.

Then there is pentagram style, for exactly five players...

But I won't play any more dom2 games until at least one of the two that I am currently in comes to an end!

[Legacyspy]

arg a stray arrow hit my prophet and killed him and my whole army routed.

[Zooko]

:-(

The routing rules are kind of irritating. If all of your troops are killed our routed, then all of your commanders will also rout. Likewise, if all your commanders are killed or routed, then all of your troops will rout.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Thats why i stoped having my leaders in the middle of the horde.

[Zooko]

When I started the server (from the unix command line) I didn't give it any switches concerning victory points. If you look at "options -&gt; show game settings", you'll see that there are no options concerning victory points or other alternate victory conditions.

Yet on the map there are victory points visible in certain provinces.

I don't know what this means.

Since we are playing in teams of two, it seems unlikely that any game-ending victory condition will be achieved by any one nation. So I think we can pretty much ignore the victory points, except that you should be aware that provinces which contain a victory point spread dominion as if there were a temple in that province and as if you had a current maximum dominion level of 5. (But it doesn't increase the number of temples you own -- it just spreads dominion as if there were a temple there.)

Unless the buggy nature of these victory points means that they *don't* spread dominion, since victory points aren't supposed to be in the game at all.

Regards,

Bwughy the Great

[Zooko]

Here is a list of some of the changes in the spell mod. Go to this thread and scroll down to the end:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=296181&amp;page=0&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1

[Zooko]

Arc and I have gotten the "sharing trn files" trick working. I send my jotun.trn file to him in e-mail, and he watches my turns. Let me know if you guys want help to do that yourselves.

--Zooko the Administrator

[Zooko]

Well, I think the Arcoscephale/Jotunheim team is certain to win over the Pythium/Marignon team at this point. Marignon has only four provinces left, one of which is his home province which is under siege. Even if he manages to break the siege, I don't think he will last long with both of his enemies attacking him at once.

Meanwhile Arcoscephale has around twice as many provinces as any other single nation.

Do you guys want to concede?

Regards,

Zooko

[Zooko]

A critical event in the war between Marignon and Jotunheim was when Marignon attacked, lost the battle, and lost three Grand Masters plus a handful of Initiates. The same army had earlier conquered a province from Jotunheim, but the difference was that this time Jotunheim had a Niefel Jarl there who cast Rain first thing. Rain doubles the fatigue of all non-underwater-casteable Fire spells, and so each of the three Grandmasters cast Flare twice, after which they each had 184 fatigue, and never moved again. Oh, I forgot to mention that the province was cold, which also increases spellcasting fatigue.

I wonder if the Rain added-fatigue effect multiplies the cold added-fatigue effect? Because 97 or so fatigue per casting of Flare is a lot!

Regards,

Zooko

[Legacyspy]

The rain was killer. I should have thought of it though.

[Zooko]

It is a nice tradition to discuss the strategy of a game after it is over so that others may learn from it.

My strategy was simple: recruit Niefelheim giants which have high number of hit points and are sacred, and use the Green Dragon Pretender with 9 Nature magic to give those units regeneration and berserk. By attacking fearlessly with those sacred units, my starting Jotunheim army, a Niefel Jarl, and the Green Dragon Pretender, I had the highest number of provinces every turn until turn 15 (with the exception that one turn my partner Arcoscephale had a higher number of provinces).

Then our strategy went into phase 2 when Jotunheim came into contact with Marignon. In phase 2, I focussed almost all of my resources on damaging Marignon's armies and depriving him of provinces, even though this was risky and expensive for me. I lost a lot of units in two separate losing battles, including my Pretender, but more reinforcements from my home castles arrived, I recalled my Pretender, and I was able to prevent Marignon from retaking his provinces by committing almost all of my armies, including my Pretender, plus a huge provincial defense (20, 26, and 32 provincial defense in three of the contested provinces), and a Niefel Jarl casting Rain, as discussed earlier.

The point of this strategy was that even if I lost, my reckless attack would probably have weakened Marignon enough that my partner Arcoscephale could finish him off.

This strategy pretty much worked. Pythium apparently tried to help his partner Marignon, since a couple of assassins from Pythium attacked my commanders at various points, but basically it seemed to me that Marignon was overwhelmed by facing two enemies.

My partner Arcoscephale and I traded gold, gems, intelligence, and magic items quite vigorously throughout the game.

So one lesson that I draw is that if you play a two-vs-two game, you have to have good scouting or other kinds of intelligence and watch out for both of your enemies coming at you at once. If you see them coming then -- I don't know what to do -- get into a defensive posture and encourage your partner to attack their rears?

Perhaps the map was too big. I never had any contact with Pythium, and I think the contact between Pythium and Arcoscephale was limited. So perhaps it wasn't fair to Marignon that he happened to start in a location where, in 40 turns or so, both of his enemies could reach him, but his partner Pythium couldn't reach either of them.

This was the Inland map with 150 ? provinces. That's 37.5 provinces per player, which seems way too much to me.

Too bad there isn't a wraparound map with only 100 provinces.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Gratulations!

I really really had bad misfortune in the game: My Strategie was to build many nation units(rich world) and to get as many Provinces as possible quite fast, meanwhile my Archlich should
serach the newly conquered provs for magic sites(75% magic sites in the map), then i would later(after round 10 or so) cast ashraic record(with my Archteutorgs to get as many sites as possible and to cast all my hording spells.

The problem was that in the north where 2 Provinces with 25 Heavy Cavaleries(and som infantrie) and in the south 60 Babarians... so much about my strong nationforce...

My temple was destroyed in turn 3 by a random event and i FOUND SO DAMM FEW SITES!!!!

But it was fun, i would be interrested in playing again with you, maybe on the Sundering, the map was really to big http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Griffin

[Legacyspy]

My plan since we were on high magic sites was to do lots of searching, use assassins and mass of xbowmen to expand. Pyth and I were also tradeing lots of gold/gems/info. I also planed on supporting my xbow with fire spells, which were slaughtered by rain, lamais which I had a site for, druids and pike men.

At the start of the war between me and jotuy I was doing well, but then lost a huge army to rain+insane province defence. While I was occupied in the south of my territory around my base arco came from he north and captured a bunch of my provinces including a sage site and a castle.

Pythuim was right below my capital, and so could never really help me unless he snuck units through(which he did, assasins)or went around the world.

[Zooko]

Ah, that's where Pythium was. Yes, I think this map wasn't a good choice for 2-vs-2 because of things like that.

My Jotun scouts had reported to Arcoscephale that he could profitably attack Marignon's northern provinces.

Ah, you had a sage site! That's why you had such high research. What did you research? I was always afraid that you would have some killer spell and destroy my whole army, but nothing came of it.

Also, how did you and/or Pythium assassinate a Heavy Cavalry Commander and a Troglodyte Commander? Lots of Pythium assassins attacking at once?

[Legacyspy]

No, I research construct for my assasins and evo for my mages. I did not get that sage site untill later in the game. But I had magc +3 I think as well as druids I also had order 3 and possibly some growth( I can't remeber exactly what i had). So i recruited druids and marignon mages every turn. I also had a huge gold income and alot of that went to pyth.

[Zooko]

What items did your assassins use to kill the heavy cavalry commander and the troglodyte commander? Why didn't you ever try to assassinate my commanders with the same items?

[Legacyspy]

I kept trying to but ur commanders kept moving. I also tried to kill arcos commanders before he sieged me but he sieged me too soon.
Items?
Ill try to remeber
Pendadnt of luck
wing shoes
etheral robe
the bronze colored bracer
2 swords of things that give fire resist and do fire damage i think.
I was also lattering planning on casting ether gate then taking the ether lord and making an SC. I was killed before i could.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Ohoh, my last 2h file was corrupt so i idled a turn, would you both also idle a turn?

[Zooko]

Actually, Arcoscephale already idled the last turn. I didn't do anything but move one Niefel Jarl from besieging Marignon's capitol to a nearby lab. He is my first ever Super-Combatant! I think. Not entirely sure if he qualifies, but I'm planning to send him to singlehandedly attack an independent province as a test.

[Zooko]

Well, I'm sorry but the game is corrupted due to an out-of-disk space exception on my server. I'm taking it down permanently. Thank you for playing!

[Zooko]

Oh wait! I tried it again, and now it works!

[Zooko]

Heh heh heh. This is kind of fun having all this powerful stuff now that I've conquered Marignon. Maybe I'll go attack Pythium now!

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

^^

[Zooko]

Whoa -- Dementius the Ether Lord shall hereby be known as the prophet of Em Yals. Hm.