Lamias vs mandragoras

[Kuritza_Dru]

Well, I'm trying to make my mind, which summoning is more effective - lamias or mandragoras? What would you choose?
And while we're at it, is any of them really effective?

[Boron]

Mandragoras can kill almost any SC but they are undead and have low HP . So a few Priests or mages will decimate them extremely quickly . Imo not worth the nature gems .

Lamias are not bad but i would rather invest my always scarce nature gems in Ivy kings , Jade armors , GoH , GoR and maybe Haunted forest .
Summoning a bunch of Ivy kings and equipping them with Penetration bonus items for Charm spamming can be pretty effective if you can combine it with either a devastation battlefield spell like Wrathful skies or with Master enslave to take out the mass of troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . Then with 5-10 Ivy kings spamming charm you have good chances to steal lots of enemy thugs/SCs .
The lamiaqueens themselves are excellent mages also .

So if you can afford don't summon nature creatures . If you want creatures look in earth and bloodmagic instead . Mech men , Devils , FoDs and living Statues are the classics here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

[Kuritza_Dru]

Well, the problem is, I'm hard-pressed now, so I have to summon some effective troops, and while devils & mech. men are good, I don't have blood or earth magic, just Air and Nature (conjuration 6). Lamia queens are being summoned already, but I need some meat to push the enemy asap. And since we are playing with a hard research, my 150 research points/turn aren't enough to get charm or nether bolts (for lamias) anytime soon.

[Boron]

Then summon Vine Ogres . They are very excellent meat shields + dirt cheap . With the 5 nature gem helmet you even get +1 vine ogre per summoning , so 2 for 1 nature gem each .

Beware though that the Vine Ogres are only excellent meat shields . If you have to rely on troops alone then lamias summoned by lamia queens ( they get a few extra ) are indeed probably your best summon at the moment .

[Oversway]

I agree with Boron that Vine Ogres are good for fodder. I think Ivy Kings also get a bonus to summon them, and you can get an extra 2 if you forge the treelord +2 nature staff. Although if you make those things, you are spending more nature gems per Vine Orge so that you can produce them faster. The problem with Vine Ogres is that it takes awhile to build up a good number of them.

Personally I've had more success with Mandragoras than Lamias but both have such a low protection that I have problems keeping them alive.

[alexti]

Kuritza_Dru said:
Well, the problem is, I'm hard-pressed now, so I have to summon some effective troops


I'd summon lamias and mandragoras and vine ogres. Idea is to put few (3-4) smallish vine ogre squads in the front, 1 or 2 larger groups of lamias slightly behind and spread out several mandragora squads across the field (but more towards the rear). Script mandragoras to attack largest, ogres and lamias to hold&attack or attack. This setup will make the army relatively sturdy (for that level of research) and reasonably good against various armies/SCs. Add some mages, guarded by ogres to custom-tailor the army

[TheBirthdayParty]

My vote, in your situation, is for the lamias simply because they transform and thus will last longer on the battlefiend than mandragoras and vine ogres are slow to get a group together, plus not all that effective once you do. 1 vine ogre vs 5 lamias vs...8 mandragoras? each summons, i'd choose the lamias. But you still need a few turns to get lamias or mandragoras out in a large enough unit/regiment.

[NTJedi]

The Vine Ogres are a long term investment where you need like 3 or 4 nature mages pumping 2 each turn... after a dozen turns you have a nice meat shield for your different mage armies.

The lamias are good if you need the troops now or if your opponent has lots of priests.

The mandragoras are great since it takes several banishments for one to fall, plus they will put the approaching enemy troops or SC asleep with the attacks. Also they are definitely worth the price if the caster is a high nature level.

[TheBirthdayParty]

One thing I forgot that could very well make mandragoras better is that, i believe, they aren't affected by morale. IE-no routing worries.

[Hakko]

Ivy Kings get 4 vine ogres/summoning at a cost of 1N per spell. That's pretty good economics after a few turns. 20 vine ogres is a very nice meat shield. Twenty ogres in five turns for 25N (20N for Ivy King plus 5 for the ogres) vs. 20 turns for 20N (assuming one caster and no ivy crown) is a pretty good tradeoff.

[Boron]

Ivy kings have also the advantage to be good Battlemages .
They are a very worthy charm platform http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Hakko]

Yes, they are a favorite summons whenever I have good access to Nature.

[Boron]

Hakko said:
Yes, they are a favorite summons whenever I have good access to Nature.


Yeah they are imo even the most useful nature summon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Hakko]

(Charm)(Relief)(Charm)(Relief)(Charm) is a wonderful thing.

[ioticus]

One thing I like to do with man is make 5 Ivy Kings as soon as possible and set each to cast a monthly ritual of summon vine ogre. It has a high upfront cost of 100N but you'll be glad you did it when you're producing 20 vine ogres a turn for a cost of 5N.

[Boron]

Hakko said:
(Charm)(Relief)(Charm)(Relief)(Charm) is a wonderful thing.



I normally try to get a few Ivy kings and script then 2 to relief x5 and the others to charm x5 .
1 reliefcaster does normally as first casting mass regeneration and the 2nd mass protection .

My atm "optimal" lategame army has a few tartarians , a few ivy kings and as troops either mech men or devils .

I try to make 2-3 such good armies and minor enemy armies i try to beat with artillery spells or horrors or ghost riders .

The big army with the invy kings has good chances to get a few additional wraithlords by charming if someone decides to ghostrider it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[BigDaddy]

IMO the Vine Ogre is the "best" nature summon after you have a few Ivy Kings. The best part about the Vine Ogre is that it is a NORMAL unit. There are few normal units in the game that actually have the hps to stand up to SCs and wizards, and with Ivy Kings, Vine Ogres are by far the cheapest. They have 53hps and 12 attack skill. They can actually hit stuff too.

[ioticus]

BigDaddy said:
IMO the Vine Ogre is the "best" nature summon after you have a few Ivy Kings. The best part about the Vine Ogre is that it is a NORMAL unit. There are few normal units in the game that actually have the hps to stand up to SCs and wizards, and with Ivy Kings, Vine Ogres are by far the cheapest. They have 53hps and 12 attack skill. They can actually hit stuff too.



I agree. Also, they don't eat and they don't rout.

IMO the Vine Ogre is the "best" nature summon after you have a few Ivy Kings.


Mmm, the Ogres are good indeed, but I realize recently that lamias are better IMHO.
Ivy Kings need Conj 7. For 160 less RP you get Lamia Queens, and they can summon 5 lamias each (and they can forge moonvine bracelets, if you really need +1N somewhere).

Lamia are extremely powerful. They cannot be killed by a single killer spell like Gifts from Heaven. Also, they often survive weaker large-area spells like Wrathful Skies. They are immune to poison (like Ogres), and Foul Vapor will not damage them.
They drain life, so they regain both HP and fatigue when opposed by living troops. This is a 'magical' attack BTW, so they easily kill the classical ethereal buff (false horrors, spirits, winter wolven, even air elementals). Okay, they are cold blooded, and this could be a problem in a cold province, but if you can summon them you can also cast Relief in battle.

All this is very convenient for Man ! Man can summon Lamia Queens (Crone + Thistle Mace), forge a staff of storm (Crone with random +1 Air), cast Foul Vapors (Crone with random +1 W), cast Relief (any Crone, or even a Mother + Mace) and Soothing Songs. With a +1Air item and the SoS, any crone can cast Wrathfull Skies. Most Mages can cast Resist Lightning, and *all* mages, including the Bard, can cast Resist Poison.

Two suggestions for Man : (a) summon some undead with the N1 lamia queens (Arouse Hunger, Revive Whight, Summon Ghost, Behemoths, Manikins etc) when the N2 queens (with a mace) make lamias. Mix them all. Use undead or nature mage to lead them in battle. Add Foul Vapor. Serve.
(b) Take an Air9 pretender. Make Wardens and lamias. Forge Rings of Tamed Lightning for some monks. Forge a SoS. Send all the stuff in battle and cast Wrathful Sky (warden are immune when blessed, lamias will suffer very few losses).
Cheers