Master Enslave MR roll

[Pocus]

I start to seriously wonder if something is not working unexpectedly for this spell. It is supposed to be "MR negate easily"... Now I have to wonder how it can be that I loose so often leaders in the MR 20+ range against the casting.

Last time, it was:

Oracle astral 12 + 3 MR breach from items against a vampire lord MR 23.
If I calculate right, its then - 1 MR (-3 from items, -2 from being 4 levels above, +4 from MR easy) against MR 23, so it lead to MR 22. And I lost this one too. This is not the first time also...

So:

1 - several very unlucky rolls (and I mean rather unlucky, you have 3.03% chance to fail the roll above).
2 - its written MR negate easily, but the code use MR negate.
3 - the gain from high caster (level 12 versus level 8 astral) is in fact used like this: 12/2 = 6 bonus, and not (12-8) /2 = 2 bonus.

4. something else.

But it dont smells right. After "exploring" the fact that winged helmet has lost its additional power (one army trashed in PBEM), now I'm discovering some other nastiness in dom end game (another army trashed...).

[Chazar]

Sorry for a small additional question: Is there an immunity against MasterEnslave, like maybe mindless?

[Pocus]

yes, mindless dont care (vine ogres, many undeads, seasonal spirits, etc.)

[Ygorl]

3% isn't that unusual to see once in a while. Was your vampire the only leader there, or were there lots of other leaders that weren't enslaved? If you've got ten leaders with MR 23, the chance of one of them getting enslaved is close to 30%. Even if you've seen lots of truly unlikely things, well, there are a lot of people playing Dominions, and chances are some of them will see several very unlikely things.
It may well work other than how it is advertised, of course.

[lebarjack]

I think it was 4 penetration bonus (spell focus +2, ring of sorcery +1, ring of wizardry +1). The spell resulted in only one of your strong leader (vampire lord, I would have prefered the dreadful Igarak) being enslaved.
That doesn't seem overpowered to me. Maybe you have been a bit unlucky.
And you killed this evil fountain (who was dumb enough to burn all of its astral gem in the enslavement and so failed to cast its returning spell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )

At first sight, I'd say that you forgot that extra gems give extra levels to the caster, and this is also valid for spell effects, like additional summoned creatures or penetration bonus. So a level 12 mage gets 4 extra levels when he is able to cast Master Enslave (lvl 8) with 12 pearls (4 extra, that's the maximum).
And local magic dominion could have an effect too.

But I've made some more tests and I must admit that something is wrong.
I sent two lvl 9 astral mages with 20 pearls each (but no items) in a province with 100 Vinemen (mindless, MR 5), 100 Spirits (undead but not mindless, MR 11) and 100 Hama Dryads (MR 15). None of them are "astral" units, so they have no special bonus against Master Enslave. Local dominion is absolutely neutral.
The first mage casts Master Enslave and the 2nd mage casts Vortex of Returning (so I can easily see the "losses").

First test : 37 spirits and 12 Dryads are lost. Second test : 24 spirits and 15 Dryads are lost. Third test : 32 spirits and 11 Dryads are lost. Vinemen are unaffected.
Hey, that's much more than expected indeed :
penetration 5 (base 4 for easy resistance + 1 extra for 2 lvl above 8) vs MR 11 = 7,1% chance,
penetration 5 vs MR 15 = 1,7% chance.

And I've another problem : a lvl 9 mage is not supposed to cast Master Enslave ! He spent 9 pearls but that's only 1 extra, so he had 10 levels, e.g. two above the minimum (8). His fatigue should be 800 divided by 3. In my tests he gets only 200 fat (or 800 divided by 4). So for some reason Master Enslave is treated as a level 7 spell !

Any thought ?

[Alneyan]

Could it be that the pearl increasing the mage level is counted in the "total number of gems a mage can use"? The first pearl your mage used would bring him to level 10, allowing him to use 10 pearls, so two extra. Wouldn't this allow him to (barely) cast the spell?

I am not sure it is intended to work that way, but it seems the most likely explanation to me; that is, if I got my maths right.

[Kristoffer O]

Sunray: 200 is max fatigue. When you have 200 you take damage next time you get fatigue.

Is base penetration 4 for easy resist? I though it was like 7 or so.

[Alneyan]

That's interesting to know: a mage can cast any spell so long as she met the requirements, without having to worry about too much fatigue. An Earth 7 Cyclops can cast the 700 fatigue Army of Lead, and will get down to 195 fatigue on the next round.

I read easy resist meant a +4 bonus to MR checks; that was what Pocus told me at any rate, and what he wrote in his first post.

[atul]

Fatique is capped at 200, if I've understood correctly the rest should be turned into ordinary damage... ...but I have also seen mage get 200 fatique and no damage in a situation where there should be excess fatique. Maybe something wrong there, and fatique isn't properly converted?

[Alneyan]

There is no damage involved when casting a spell over 200 fatigue; my Cyclops at least whistled, despite casting a 700-fatigue spell. I believe you are supposed to get damage only if you get additional fatigue afterwards, which would require a spell creating fatigue.

[Saber Cherry]

Alneyan said:
There is no damage involved when casting a spell over 200 fatigue; my Cyclops at least whistled, despite casting a 700-fatigue spell. I believe you are supposed to get damage only if you get additional fatigue afterwards, which would require a spell creating fatigue.



Or sleep vines, lifedrain, etc., and communicants getting pushed over 200.

[Pocus]

unlucky this time and the others... when the oracle converted several leaders having 20 and more MR... This is not the first time you are extremely lucky in fact, this is why I start to wonder if something is not amiss.

But it can be a stroke of very bad luck.

Kristoffer O said:
Sunray: 200 is max fatigue. When you have 200 you take damage next time you get fatigue.


Interesting. I've always thought that scripted spells > 200 fat are rejected by the AI.


Is base penetration 4 for easy resist? I though it was like 7 or so.


Ach, you're right, I was still using the dom1 manual. In dom2 it is 7, not 4.

It's clearer now. 8 (base 7 +1 for two extra levels) vs 11 (MR of spirits) = 20% chance (27% if the first pearl is use to get 1 extra level). 8 vs 15 (dryads) = 5% (or 7% for the 1st gem).

Against Pocus, the level 12 Oracle had thus a penetration of 7 (base) + 4 (items) + 4 (8 levels above minimum, using 12 gems) = 15, versus a MR of 23 it gives 3,5% chance to enslave (5% if the first pearl = +1). Not bad.

Thanks

[PvK]

Might want to run a test again 100 targets with MR 23, just to get an empirical estimate of the odds ...

PvK

[Pocus]

following the discussion, I got a new turn in this very interesting pbem. And the result is even more impressive (I must be totally and uterly unlucky). This time its a ivy king without any items succeeded in charming my arch devil (MR 26...).
The probability is 1.22 % if I calculate right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif