Team Game Starting

[msew]

START TIME

2005-03-06 11:00am Pacific Standard Time (PST)



Overview

A team game will be starting once there are enough players.

The game will be teams vs teams.

Either 2v2 or 2v2v2 or 3v3 depending who wants to play.





Issues Still To Resolved

The following issues need to be resolved before this game may commence.




House Rules
0) No Life Drain Weapons
1) No merc usage until turn 8
2) No bane venom charm

*others to be determined


Game Server
IP: benatar.snurgle.org
port: 2005

Game Settings
Indys: 8
Research: Hard
Site Freq: 70
Hall Of Fame: 15
Graphs: On
Victory: Standard
Map: s24 http://www.msew.org/~msew/dom2/S24.zip
Timing: 24H QuickHost If you are the last one out you must double turn. So complete your turn. The turn generates you immediately do another turn.


Mods (all of the latest and greatest at the time of the game start)
GameVersion: 2.15
Items: N/A
Nations: N/A
PretenderGods: 2.0 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp2.zip
Scales: 1.2 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptscale12.zip
Spells: 1.8 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/concepts18.zip

Banned Nations:
0) no pop-killing dominion. (e.g. Ermor, Pan CW ) Death-3 is fine rationale: ruins the war mechanics. Why attack them when there is no gain. Neat idea. Bad for the game unless everyone is playing that type of nation.

1) Caelum. Rationale: Overpowered. Why be anything else?



Player List With AssociatedTeam


ironhawk: vans
msew: ulm
rabelais: arco

VS

Arralen: TC
quantum_mechanic: man
truper: abysia

[msew]

I would like to play in this team game

[Ironhawk]

You know I'm down. I think Q is in as well? Are we going to be on the same team or is that something that will be decided randomly.

Also, how are you going to address the topics of:
1) Capital Placement
How can you insure that team's empires will be located adjacent to each other?

2) Nation Selection
Are we all going to select our own nations? Or will we form teams and then have like a... instant runnoff voting for nation pairings or triplets?

[msew]

>Also, how are you going to address the topics of:
>1) Capital Placement
>How can you insure that team's empires will be located adjacent to each other?


Can't do this that I know of. So if you get placed in a bad place better go defensive and hope your teammate(s) get there to help you.

The indies at strength 8 should help.


In short: Life is hard.


>2) Nation Selection
>Are we all going to select our own nations? Or will we form teams and then have like a... instant runnoff voting for nation pairings or triplets?


What do people want to do? Probably should do a game of mish mash nations vs each other. And another game that is more thematic.

Form teams and then run off would be my preference. Hopefully people will take complimentary nations. I know I will be.

[Alneyan]

You can also have a third party host create a .map with manual placement; this file can be kept secret from all players, so you wouldn't know where the other capitals are.

[quantum_mechani]

I am probably in, though it is stretching it a bit a since I just joined two of Illwinter's Shepherds of Creation games (bringing my game total to five). If we could get it rolling as a blitz that would help.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Heyda, iwould like to be in. My suggestion is that we use the Zen Pretender Mod.

...and maybe it is a bit early: i like to pick Jotonheim http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[msew]

yeah we will be using all of the zen mods with the latest version of each at game start

[Ironhawk]

Well, if we have 4 people then should be think about begining the game? 2x2?

[quantum_mechani]

To keep the nation picking going: I'll take Ulm.

[Arralen]

Ok, I'm in.
I'm not shure about the nation, will have to think about it.

[Ironhawk]

I would like to propose a new house rule: no pop-killing dominion. Death-3 is fine if you want to take that but the really vicious pop-killing dominions of Ermor, Pan CW, etc, would be outlawed. IMO they break the mechanics of war in dom2. There is no incentive to attack a player like this because thier lands give you no income.

[msew]

okie we need one more person.


Also:

which map are people thinking they want to play on?

[quantum_mechani]

msew said:
okie we need one more person.


Also:

which map are people thinking they want to play on?


Whatever the smallest one people will agree to would be my choice.

[msew]

so Faerun right?

[YellowCactus]

Thanks for the invite fellas. The team game I'm in is a lot of fun, though time is at a premium these days. Maybe I'll catch the next one?
-Yc

[Arralen]

May I suggest my "Parganos Remade" map, version v2 (attached ..)

It features 135 provinces, 19 of which are water.
Some of the borders are impassable, and marked as such on the map (weren't on the original map). TGA file is reworked to make colours generally more ... colourful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I cut down on the number of provinces which multiple terrain features, in v2 even more.
v2 has some additional bugfixes.


Hope we get everything together for a Blitz Start on Sunday, the 6th

[Ironhawk]

Assuming we get a 6th player somehow, Parganos seems a bit big to me. Just eyeballing it, that would be about 20 provinces per empire before any combat took place. How about a map that is a bit smaller, that works out to say... 10-12 provs per player? So 60-80 provs? Does such a thing exist? What do the other players think?

[rabelais]

I'd like to play. If you need another.

I suggest random teams to make it a level playing field for those of us, who are rusty or new to the team concept.

Then random order on nation picks, with symmetry for the teams as a whole.

(i.e. team 1 picks first and last
team 2 picks second and next to last etc.)

Rabe

[msew]

okie players are closed. (we have 6)

[msew]

rabelais said:
Then random order on nation picks, with symmetry for the teams as a whole.

Rabe



Well so far there have been no over laps in nation picking.

What nation are you wanting to play?

[msew]

rabelais said:

I suggest random teams to make it a level playing field for those of us, who are rusty or new to the team concept.





heh I think this is first time for all of us.

[rabelais]

msew said:

rabelais said:
Then random order on nation picks, with symmetry for the teams as a whole.

Rabe



Well so far there have been no over laps in nation picking.

What nation are you wanting to play?



Depends what is available. I'd love Jotun, for example. They do start fast.

I might make do with some other lesser nation if need be. Arco or Machaka perhaps. But I didn't realize we were actually picking yet.

Rabe

[quantum_mechani]

Rules clarification: does the no life drain rule apply to native life drain attacks(i.e. vampires)?

[Arralen]

Houserule Lifedrain
As you can't take it away from them, it would mean banning a whole lot of units, ok, some units. What I'm against.

AFAIK all(?) those units have range-0 as they attack "bare-handed". That gives other units the chance to repel, and damage isn't that high as well (STR I think, while all life drain weapons are at least at STR+3..)

It would mean banning the spell as well, what can only be done for the first 5 turns of combat, so it wouldn't work.


suggested houserule: No bane venom charm !
It's still bugged and gives Exp for killed civilians..


Map choice
I would prefer 12 prov/player as well (72 overall), but how many maps are there in that size?
Mmmh, I could do a special version of Parganos - by cutting of some provinces from the upper edge !?

game settings proposal
Indies 7+, research at least difficult, sites 45-

My choice of nation:
Either Man, Machaka or TC.

[msew]

quantum_mechani said:
Rules clarification: does the no life drain rule apply to native life drain attacks(i.e. vampires)?



natural life drain is fine.

The idea of banning life drain is to stop the silliness of SCs just being utterly unstoppable by themselves. This is basically due the fact the devs are morons and combined hp regen and fatigue regen into one ability called: "Lifedrain"

[msew]

rabelais said:

I might make do with some other lesser nation if need be. Arco or Machaka perhaps. But I didn't realize we were actually picking yet.

Rabe




people have just been listing what they want to play.


i.e. if there are no overlaps then we don't have to do a run off / random choice etc etc

[Ironhawk]

Timing:
Ok, I have a really important question: when are we playing on Sunday? So that people can know when to show up in irc. I would propose:

11:00am Pacific Time (PT)

Which works out to 2pm for east coast US and 8pm for Arralen (who is +1 GMT I believe?).

IRC:
Additionally, I have noted that everyone is posting regularly except for GriffinOfBuerring. I PM'd him yesterday to see if he had an irc client (i know everyone else does) but I havent heard back from him. As this is a team game, we can't handle 1 player deciding not to show up...

Maps:
Also, about maps: doesnt Aran only have 80 provs? 100 maybe? I cant check right now. How many does Sundering have?

Teaming:
I propose that we play a 3x3 team game. With only 2 teams, there will be no double-teaming, or waiting around clamming/fetishing for hundreds of turns. It will just be a straight up slugging match!

[msew]

Ironhawk said:

Teaming:
I propose that we play a 3x3 team game. With only 2 teams, there will be no double-teaming, or waiting around clamming/fetishing for hundreds of turns. It will just be a straight up slugging match!



agree

[rabelais]

msew said:

rabelais said:

I might make do with some other lesser nation if need be. Arco or Machaka perhaps. But I didn't realize we were actually picking yet.

Rabe




people have just been listing what they want to play.


i.e. if there are no overlaps then we don't have to do a run off / random choice etc etc



Of course. I guess what I meant was, I'd need to know who my partners were, and consult with them before I knew what I was playing.

Then again, maybe I should just get a Wyrm and go to town, but it seems like collaboration is part of the idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Rabe the Wondering if magic sites are going to be 45ish or ~70 as originally suggested.

[Arralen]

There's a serious lack of maps with ~80 provinces ...

Aran : 107 provinces, 11 of these are under water
Chandrea - The Dunken Donut : 102 provinces, 17 are water
Albatha : 69 provinces, 13 of them seas
Brittain : 68 provinces
The Sundering: 61 provinces, 10 of these are under water

[quantum_mechani]

Arralen said:
There's a serious lack of maps with ~80 provinces ...

Aran : 107 provinces, 11 of these are under water
Chandrea - The Dunken Donut : 102 provinces, 17 are water
Albatha : 69 provinces, 13 of them seas
Brittain : 68 provinces
The Sundering: 61 provinces, 10 of these are under water


I would vote for the sundering, makes a nice change from Urgaia.

[Ironhawk]

No one has commented on my proposal for when this game will actually be played. If people really intend for this to be a blitz start, that is the most important piece of info to agree on. Should I take your silence as agreement?

Griffin responded to my PM. He does not have an irc client but gave me his email so hopefully we can get him up and running in time.

Hahahah, Q. Sundering with 6 people will be nuts! But I will play it if that is what people want. Sundering or Aran - either is fine with me.

As for teams, I would like to be on a team with msew. We play many games together and are frequently enemies so this will be a nice change. If someone else wants to be the third player on the team of me and msew then we will have a team division ready to go...



Ironhawk said:
Timing:
Ok, I have a really important question: when are we playing on Sunday? So that people can know when to show up in irc. I would propose:

11:00am Pacific Time (PT)

Which works out to 2pm for east coast US and 8pm for Arralen (who is +1 GMT I believe?).

IRC:
Additionally, I have noted that everyone is posting regularly except for GriffinOfBuerring. I PM'd him yesterday to see if he had an irc client (i know everyone else does) but I havent heard back from him. As this is a team game, we can't handle 1 player deciding not to show up...

Maps:
Also, about maps: doesnt Aran only have 80 provs? 100 maybe? I cant check right now. How many does Sundering have?

Teaming:
I propose that we play a 3x3 team game. With only 2 teams, there will be no double-teaming, or waiting around clamming/fetishing for hundreds of turns. It will just be a straight up slugging match!

[Arralen]

Oh, thinking 'bout it .. Sundering wouldn't be so great..

I thought having a Blitz Start on Sunday 19:00 GMT was set from the beginning??

What "sites" setting will we use?
.. my choice of nation depends on it ..

[msew]

Ironhawk said:

As for teams, I would like to be on a team with msew. We play many games together and are frequently enemies so this will be a nice change. If someone else wants to be the third player on the team of me and msew then we will have a team division ready to go...





okie

one team is ironhawk + msew + ???????????


who wants to be on our team?


Then we can make nation choices before the game starts hehe

[msew]

Arralen said:
What "sites" setting will we use?
.. my choice of nation depends on it ..



70

nice high number for massive mega death spells and items and such.


Dom2 is supposed to be about war. Not building up for 50 turns and then chain summoning crap onto people's provinces.

WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR DEATH

[rabelais]

msew said:


70

nice high number for massive mega death spells and items and such.


Dom2 is supposed to be about war. Not building up for 50 turns and then chain summoning crap onto people's provinces.

WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR DEATH



Not that I am opposed to the 70 site frequency, but doesn't having a high site percentage just hasten the time to the chain summoning extravaganza of which you spoke? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'll be happy to be on Ironhawks and msew's team if they will have me, though I'm not sure I'm doing them huge favors by volunteering http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rabe

[msew]

rabelais said:
Not that I am opposed to the 70 site frequency, but doesn't having a high site percentage just hasten the time to the chain summoning extravaganza of which you spoke? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Rabe



yes and no


-to get to chain summoning you need to have high research. which is why we have research set to high

-high gems means you are able to "splurge" on spells to attack with and make items. VS I need to save up my gems for chain summoning

-so certainly some dude can research and get gems for chain summoning. But his opponents are going to have a lot of gems to be able to just attack attack attack with. Without fear of "wasting" the gems in battle. Plenty more where those came from!


-no need to worry about: Should I spend 20 gems to make this item or should I save them for my summoning spell? MAKE THE ITEM! AND ATTACK!

[msew]

rabelais said:
I'll be happy to be on Ironhawks and msew's team if they will have me, though I'm not sure I'm doing them huge favors by volunteering http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rabe



kk that works

teams are set above

[msew]

OK

mods / game version we are going to use:

Mods (all of the latest and greatest at the time of the game start)
GameVersion: 2.15
Items: N/A
Nations: N/A
PretenderGods: 2.0 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp2.zip
Scales: 1.2 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptscale12.zip
Spells: 1.8 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/concepts18.zip

[msew]

MAPS:

okie

aran is out. It is a lame map. The two pennisulas are pretty much "safe" havens for whom ever gets their Capital placed near them. If someone is a sea nation then there needs to be another sea nation for parity. It is out.

Sundering is out. Too small.


Maps that I have found that are ok but not great are:

Pargonos2: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/arrs_parganos2.zip

135 provinces, 19 sea provinces.

ISSUES: the people in the middle get fcuked. The people in the upper left hand corner get ufcked due to no money lands. All mountain up there.



Karan: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/karan.zip

162 provinces, 20 sea provinces.

ISSUES: we are playing that now. And it might be a bit too big for 6 people.



Valhalla: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/valhalla.zip
Number of provinces: 112. 23 or 24 sea provinces (from my count)

ISSUES: no real interesting terrain. everything basically connects to everything else. Water circles the entire thing.


Anyone have other map suggestions? It would be nice to let everyone have 15-18 provinces with no conflict. So ~100 province map or so

[rabelais]

msew said:
MAPS:


Maps that I have found that are ok but not great are:

Pargonos2: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/arrs_parganos2.zip




This link fails for me, as did the one further up the thread.

Maybe we should use a "random"? Its true someone might get screwed on starting location, but it doesn't seem like we are avoiding this on the standard maps.

If I find a good one I will post it.

Are we looking for 12prov/player, or 80 total? I think the generator is configurable.

Rabe

[Arralen]

msew said:
MAPS:
Maps that I have found that are ok but not great are:

Pargonos2: 135 provinces, 19 sea provinces.

ISSUES: the people in the middle get fcuked. The people in the upper left hand corner get ufcked due to no money lands. All mountain up there.




Acutally, it isn't all mountain up there. I changed that to make the map more balanced. It's mountain, mountain/forest and forest, some of them "big". With sites=70 you'll have lotsa gems to cash in, so income should be en par with anyone who starts in grass lands. Maybe you would be even better of starting in the mountains, as you'll have more sites, so better chances of specials, and you may chose to cash in, or use the gems for something else.

Those in the middle area aren't that f*ck as one may think, as there are some impassable borders which make it more difficult for the outlying players to do attack everywhere at once.


For a 100-prov map I would strongly suggest "The Steel Ovens of Chandrea", a quick hack I did using the Chandrea Map. Check it out ... (attached)

[Arralen]

rabelais said:

msew said:
MAPS:


Maps that I have found that are ok but not great are:

Pargonos2: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/arrs_parganos2.zip




This link fails for me, as did the one further up the thread.



I have attached the map to one of my postings on the first page of the thread..

[rabelais]

None of the attachments work for me... Keep getting 404's.

Time to go reinstall mozilla I guess.

Anywhere else I can DL this?

Rabe the Not found

[quantum_mechani]

msew said:
MAPS:

okie

aran is out. It is a lame map. The two pennisulas are pretty much "safe" havens for whom ever gets their Capital placed near them. If someone is a sea nation then there needs to be another sea nation for parity. It is out.

Sundering is out. Too small.


Maps that I have found that are ok but not great are:

Pargonos2: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/arrs_parganos2.zip

135 provinces, 19 sea provinces.

ISSUES: the people in the middle get fcuked. The people in the upper left hand corner get ufcked due to no money lands. All mountain up there.



Karan: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/karan.zip

162 provinces, 20 sea provinces.

ISSUES: we are playing that now. And it might be a bit too big for 6 people.



Valhalla: http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/valhalla.zip
Number of provinces: 112. 23 or 24 sea provinces (from my count)

ISSUES: no real interesting terrain. everything basically connects to everything else. Water circles the entire thing.


Anyone have other map suggestions? It would be nice to let everyone have 15-18 provinces with no conflict. So ~100 province map or so


Out of these I vote Valhalla.

[rabelais]

The Map generator is awesome, but you may not want to play on a map with monochomatic tendencies.

Enclosed is sample tga and params so you can play with it.

numofneighbors<=nostart is a lovely (and available) option.

Couldn't figure out how to put more than one file in the archive, but you can regenerate the .map file.

DomMap is available at Arryn's site http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rabe

(P.S. actually it wont let me upload, even though the .exe extension (self-extracting) is nominally eligible. What gives?)

params below

DomMap -v -h 550 -w 750 -n Random -s 877876 -r 1.5 -wl 0 -tl 60 -ml 80 -pl 5 -rl 70 -d .08 -ns 0 -nl 80 -ps 15 -sa 30 -la 8 -ss 60 -ls 25 -sc 1000000 -tc 10000 -sm 2 -ln 2 -sn 5

[Ironhawk]

I'm also unable to download this attachment.


Arralen said:
For a 100-prov map I would strongly suggest "The Steel Ovens of Chandrea", a quick hack I did using the Chandrea Map. Check it out ... (attached)

[Ironhawk]

I would accept Valhalla just given the number of provinces. But there is so much water and the water is everywhere, geographically, such that things might get unbalanced if someone plays a water race.


quantum_mechani said:
Out of these I vote Valhalla.

[Arralen]

Valhalla sucks:
You can't tell waste from grassland.
Fords are barely identifiable.
Essentially, the land is all strung up, there's no coast or inland.
I can't stand the colour for long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Random maps:
We needn't do it ourselves. Gandalf has a bunch of ramdom maps with 80 prov for download at
http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/thumbnails.html

[Ironhawk]

Those are some pretty nice maps. I'm fine with using these random ones. My suggestions are:

Map S23 (http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/TodayMapS23.htm) : If we have no water nations (or two water nations). Placing the team capitals more or less vertically on the right and left sides will provide a VERY wide front in the middle, which is great!

Map S25 (http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/TodayMapS25.htm) : If we have one water nation. In that case we could place the capitals horizontally and also have a good front.



Arralen said:
Random maps:
We needn't do it ourselves. Gandalf has a bunch of ramdom

[YellowCactus]

If your going for diplomacy and fairness I would recommend a map that wraps. Inland is nice.
-Yc

[Ironhawk]

I'd like to play Vanhiem. Not sure what theme yet...

[msew]

S23 is good

that is current leader righ tnow

[msew]

can't DL any of the attachments

[msew]

issues with s23:


terrain is pretty grouped.


farmlands in one area, forest in another, mountains in another


so s23 dropping in the ranks


s28 has the distribution of land types we wants but has really only point of connection between the land masses. So that choke point would be battle central. Which is semi lame as no real strategy involved.

[msew]

s27 http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/TodayMapS27.htm


is looking pretty good.


the farmlands in the NW are little clumped but there are enough of them elsewhere to make it semi nice


s24 http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/TodayMapS24.htm

also looks nice.

a little less interesting terrain. but still decent distro of land types



both of these are top choices

[Arralen]

I vote for S24.

I choose TienChi.

[rabelais]

Well, we also had decided on TC, but we are willing to go arco if you want it too.

So we want van, ulm, and arco and you want jotun, tc and who?

Also I can make the perfect map is 20 seconds with the generator.

What is the problem with using a truly random no water map?

Do we want water, is that the problem?

Rabe

[Arralen]

Ok, "which map" is still an issue.

I uploaded my 2 maps, so you can find them at
http://www.schulterdrachen.de/files/steelovensofchandrea.zip
http://www.schulterdrachen.de/files/arrs_parganos_v2.zip

Then msew and me agree we could use some of Gandalfs random maps with 85 prov.
http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/TodayMapS27.htm
http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/S/TodayMapS24.htm

[Gandalf Parker]

you guys do know that S23 on the 4th is not S23 on the 5th. The maps change daily so linking directly to them is not a good idea. Snag the map and snag the image so you can post it here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Or let me know and I can rename it so it stays when the re-randomize scripts run

[msew]

Okie We are using s24

http://www.msew.org/~msew/dom2/S24.zip


Please DL from this url so we are all using the same map.


Gandalf: You can run your scripts or what not. We have the map saved off.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Hi,

i would like to pick jotunheim and can anyone tell me in which game i am?

Griffin

[msew]

yes this game

SUNDAY 2005-03-06
11 am PST be in irc

irc.GameSurge.net

channel #dominions

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

I meant in which team :p.

Just mail me the logs of the irc to dzbabi[att]web.de

So it would be fine if my team contacts me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


or give me a summary there, i have no time today.^^

[Arralen]

START TIME

2005-03-06 11:00am Pacific Standard Time (PST)

Which works out to 2pm for east coast US and 8pm for Arralen (who is +1 GMT I believe?)


Overview

A team game will be starting once there are enough players.
The game will be teams vs teams.

Either 2v2 or 2v2v2 or 3v3 depending who wants to play.


Issues Still To Resolved
The following issues need to be resolved before this game may commence.

3) Port on game host machine

5) Which nations everyone is playing



House Rules
0) No Life Drain Weapons
1) No merc usage until turn 8
2) No bane venom charm

*others to be determined


Game Server
IP: benatar.snurgle.org
port: xxxx

Game Settings
Indys: 8
Research: Hard (difficult)
Site Freq: 70
Hall Of Fame: 15
Graphs: On
Victory: Standard
Map: s24 http://www.msew.org/~msew/dom2/S24.zip
Timing: 24H QuickHost


Mods (all of the latest and greatest at the time of the game start)
GameVersion: 2.15
Items: N/A
Nations: N/A
Sidhe War Godess not in the game due to heavy protests
PretenderGods: 2.0 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp2.zip
Scales: 1.2 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptscale12.zip
Spells: 1.8 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/concepts18.zip

Banned Nations:
0) no pop-killing dominion. (e.g. Ermor, Pan CW ) Death-3 is fine rationale: ruins the war mechanics. Why attack them when there is no gain. Neat idea. Bad for the game unless everyone is playing that type of nation.

1) Caelum. Rationale: Overpowered. Why be anything else?



Player List With Associated Team And Nation


ironhawk (Vanheim?)
msew (Ulm?)
rabelais (Arco?)

VS

Arralen (T'ien Ch'i)
GriffinOfBuerrig (Jotunheim?)
quantum_mechanic (Man?)

[rabelais]

Are we allowed to create a "Vanheim War Goddess" mod to optimize pretender cost for the Vans/Valks as you have for the sidhe ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Say 2F 1W 1E ? (we'll give up stealth, awe and glamour for the extra fire boost)

*duck*

Rabe the Troublemaker

[dzbabi]

*trowing a old fish at rabelais*

[msew]

okie truper has taken griffon's place.

the first post of the thread has updated info on teams and such

[msew]

kk game is on 24h quick host


we are on turn 18.


we played til turn 9 and abysia had not taken heat 2 so his nation was pretty much worthless.

We restarted. Did 10 turns in 50 minutes. Good stuff there!



So far:


Massive battles bettween:

Vans and Man first blood to man. MASSIVE destruction by vans

Vans and Abysia Mega battle

Arco and Man Battle!


Vans are fighting two front war with Man and Abysia

Arco is fighting Man.



No intel on TC

Ulm was abaondoned by the Vans and left to fend for himself.


And that is how things stand at turn 18!!!

[msew]

If you are the last one out you must double turn. So complete your turn. The turn generates you immediately do another turn.

[msew]

Also:

Please save any interesting battles and such that you have.

Both arco and vans have saved off the major battles they have had so far.

It is nice to be able to go back and look at the world and other people's nations and combat set ups after the game is over.

So please save them off.

To save them off: Just copy the game folder: GameOfThrees_v2

and name it like: GameOfThrees_v2_turn_#_nation (e.g. GameOfThrees_v2_turn_15_ulm)

[Ironhawk]

Wow! I thought this game was going to have more buildup, but instead its just been all-out warfare from turn 9-10 on. My apologies for not double-turning last night. I was just too spent to do another turn. Probably I will be last out when I get home from work and I will double-turn then.

As to Ulm crying about being "abaondoned by the Vans" all I have to say is: best laid plans of mice & men, etc, etc. Stop *****ing cause I am the only thing standing b/w Man/Abysia and you.

[msew]

Ironhawk said:
Stop *****ing cause I am the only thing standing b/w Man/Abysia and you.



I retort: self preservation

if it were not for that my lands would have been burnt to the ground by the invaders!

[msew]

okie seems team B is conceding.

At least that is what I got from the IRC conversation and that no one has done their turns. or what not.


So are we up for another team game?

Same rules?

The map this time will be 100-110 provinces. That will stop the cramped capital placement and will stop massive fighting from turn 9 onwards.

Conflicts over expansion provinces should occur around turn 15 or so.

With a bigger map that will occur. Further when that occurs and one side wins, they are not just a hop skip and a jump away from the opposition's capital.


In short: 80 provinces is too small for 6 people in a team game setting.


~msew

[Arralen]

I'm interested playing on Parganos v2 (still), but only if teams aren't pre-made. I hate being pressed to use the kitten/feeder strategy.

Maybe my modified Chandrea Map (with or without the Steel Ovens) would be even better: It's wraparound and has lots of "ferry connections" between the islands, so hiding a week "feeder" nation behind a strong one will not work ...

[Ironhawk]

Your end goal seems to be a team game without team-integrated nation designs, right? If that is the case then you should just request that as a house rule. Cause you can follow an integrated strategy even without knowing your teammates or map in advance, its just more risky to do so.

Make a house rule that is like... honestly I just dont even know how to phrase it. Cause it is such a grey area. If I play a nation and choose to take no earth magic whatsoever in the hopes that one of my allies will have it and be able to feed me earth items, is that a feeder strategy? What level of limitations are you wanting to place on team interaction?

[quantum_mechani]

I think I would draw the line at regular gold shipments. Disaster relief or specific one time gifts are one thing, but regular gold transfer as part of a wider strategy should be outlawed (not sure on the wording myself).

[Ironhawk]

Yeah, its *very* hard to phrase. Because I think its just a fact of life that allies will help each other. Be it with gold, gems, items, etc. That is the purpose of the alliance. I mean, if I was playing in a team game and one of my allies was in very intense combat I would certainly funnel them as much gold/gems/items as I could budget. Cause if they die then the chance of my team losing goes way up.

[msew]

I think the high level goal that people want is for people to not make a team where there is really only one nation "fighting" and the other two nations are feeding that "fighter" nation.


So these are what people are saying:

a) no alchemist pretender
b) play on a wrapping map
c) no expressly making a nation that is hopeless without getting an influx of cash from others
d) no expressly making a nation that is hopeless without getting an influx of items from others
e) no expressly making a nation that is hopeless without getting massive protection from other nations (i.e. the Ulm BF that never made a single army unit and only did blood research)



Looking at the above points it really seams like: b is the only thing needed.

If you can't easily protect your "feeder" nations then they are going to get worked. In the first team game: EVERY round we were alchemizing most every gem we had to fund the vanheim war effort. We were able to do that because neither of the "feeder" nations were in danger of being attacked.

I was playing Ulm BF. My turns took maybe 1-2 minutes. I did: Alchemize for cash, buy a blood mage, set him to research, send cash to vans and/or arco now and again. Once I started getting my blood hunting up and running, I added: "move slaves to a lab" to that list.



As for the notion of utterly random teams and utterly random nations, making complimentary nation designs seems a pretty core aspect of the team game. So the purely random is flawed.

Just like in a "normal" dom2 game you see the list of players playing and you say: Oh okie there are 3 earth nations. I am not taking earth on my pretender because I should be able to trade for a hammer and other earth items.

Not taking earth on your pretender in a team game because you know your team mate has E3 already seems pretty much the same.




I think one of the CORE issues to discuss is: Should you be able to have one of your team mate be the item whore?

Ulm BF can NOT make items with any effeciency while TC is an item making machine. Why would I spend any research points in construction when I know my team mate is going to be spending?



I guess with all that said: I don't really understand where the desire to not have feeding nations exist comes from. What I think people REALLY want is: lack of untouchable feeding nations.

Who cares if Team A chooses to have a feeding nation. If that nation's only job is to feed and is militarily weak then ATTACK it and destroy it.


A wrappable map where there is no "one battle front" forces every nation to be able to defend themselves in some way. And removes the untouchable feeder nations.

[Truper]

The desire to not have feeding nations comes from the idea that playing one isn't much fun. How much fun were you having buying a mage and sending gold to Vanheim? And yet there's no denying that it was an excellent strategy under the conditions.

I don't know if having a wrap-around map is a sufficient preventative measure, especially if it were larger than the one we were using. You tell me. If we used a wrap around map, would your team dare to use a similar strategy?

[Ironhawk]

I'd agree with that assessment. I like too how it does not stop "feeding" which we have been having such trouble defining - because, as you, I feel that it is to a certain extent inherit in any team activity - but rather just makes it so that all nations need to stand on thier own due to the game settings, not a house rule.

[Arralen]

Chandrea Map is only nominally bigger:
Lots of it's 100 provinces are small and rather worthless. Furthermore, there are lots of "ferry links" between the island, connecting just the most valuable provinces.

I have tested it in SP and found it very difficult to defend an area bigger than one of the small island due ti the wraparound effects of the North-West / Southeast streched-out "continent": Plenty few possiblities for a pure "feeder" nation to hide ..

[Ironhawk]

Is 100 provinces enough? We just played on 80 and there was conflict from turn 9 on. If we move to 100 provinces that is only 4 more provinces per empire. By my guess that will only delay conflict by 2-3 more turns.

I guess the best question to ask would be: when do we want/expect war to break out?

[Arralen]

14 land provinces per player should be enough. Obviously, if someone really wants tio go for another player early, there are few things to stop him. Maybe up the indies to 9.

[msew]

Truper said:
The desire to not have feeding nations comes from the idea that playing one isn't much fun. How much fun were you having buying a mage and sending gold to Vanheim? And yet there's no denying that it was an excellent strategy under the conditions.




Probably as much fun as I would have if I was playing the vans.

It is a TEAM game. The TEAM winning is that matters.

My nation (Ulm BF) was SLOW starter and end game ungodly powerful (given the game settings).

I am more than willing to spend time setting up blood economy and letting my allies take out the indies and shelter me from attacks.



Also I guess people's definition of "feeder nation" is a bit flawed.

A feeder nation would be one who's ONLY job was to feed other nations and have no purpose in the game except that.

For our strategy it was:


Vans: does no research, just makes troops
Ulm BF: only does blood research and alcheminizes
Arco: item construction, site searching spells, global spells, remote attack spells


Vans: early strong, middle semi strong, end weak
Ulm BF: early weak, middle semi strong, end ungodly
Arco: early medium weak, middle semi strong, end strong




Truper said:
I don't know if having a wrap-around map is a sufficient preventative measure, especially if it were larger than the one we were using. You tell me. If we used a wrap around map, would your team dare to use a similar strategy?




Let's play again and you can see what strategy we will employ!


If the Ulm BF can be protected (either by his allies or by him not buying a blood mage every round), he is going to be a force to deal with.

[Ironhawk]

I think that a wraparound map would be sufficient to deter people from picking nations which were too weak to stand on thier own in the early parts of the game.

Also, I was thinking that we should call this an Allied game instead of a Team game? I know it's just semantics, but I think it would do something to address the differing viewpoints. Like people seem to be looking to play a game where all nations are independent and so could stand on thier own, but choose to work together. As opposed to the three nations being a single entity.

Anyway, whats the status on this one? Do we want to shoot for next weekend?


Truper said:
I don't know if having a wrap-around map is a sufficient preventative measure, especially if it were larger than the one we were using. You tell me. If we used a wrap around map, would your team dare to use a similar strategy?

[Arralen]

yeah

[quantum_mechani]

Well, if Saber Cherry's mod game gets gong, I may not have time to play in another team game. From my point of view, having that game start as a blitz would be the ideal situation.

[Ironhawk]

Yeah, I would put Saber's game as my first priority as well. His mod sounds really cool. Check it out at:

Saber Cherry's Unit Rebalance Mod (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=340596&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=3&vc=1#Post340596)