The Grand Anti-SC competition! - Results!

[Tuna]

<font color="red"> look at page 6 for results
</font>

With everyone using mostly SC's nowadays, I thought why not have a bit of a contest with them.

The rules are simple: 16 players join up and send me the details of their sc's (rules below), I will build them, send them all to a single province in the most unfair order I can figure and then up the turn file here so everyone can see the battles.

The sc's can be based on any chassis, pretender, only wishable, whatever, as long as it's in the unmodded game it's fair game. They can be given any non-unique items, full complement of gems of any type or any mix, and any script the owner desires. They also can be empowered by total of 3 levels in addition to their natural magic abilities. The spell tech levels can be decided by the maker to restrict the complement of spells auto-cast, should the maker wish to.

To submit the pretender, send me a PM with:

1. His name
2. Country preference, if any. (should you want to cast any national spesific spells. Should this already be taken I will reply and let you change the design)
3. The chassis of the pretender, both the exact name and the ID (this can be seen by wieving the unit's stats and by pressing I (capital i))
4. All the items, both exact names and the ID's.
5. What you want to use the 3 magic levels for.
6. The script he will follow.
7. The max magic research levels at the time of the battle.

Also post his name here to confirm.

I will not be playing, for obvious reasons.

(edit1) the magic gem repositories are not replenished every fight, you use it against one combatant, it's lost.(/edit1)

(edit2) You do get to choose the random paths on units with random magic. (/edit2)

[Azhur]

Mine isn't too original, but here's the first build:

1. Azhur
2. C'tis
3. Doom Horror, 651
4. Couldn't find those item ID's by capital-I (Amulet of Antimagic and Amulet of Luck)
5. W,2F
6. Cast Quickness, cast Phoenix Pyre, Attack Rearmost
7. Constr. 4, Alterat. 7

[Turin]

I have sent you mine.
Blubba is the name of my valiant warrior.

Nice idea.

[FrankTrollman]

Just curious, where are you getting a Doom Horror with Alteration 7? They pop out of Wish (Alteration 9), and very large castings during Astral Corruption. Even then, to actually get the Doom Horror, you'd need to successfully steal it with Enslave - no mean feat.

-Frank

[Jurri]

You'll notice that the reason for restricting the research levels is:
The spell tech levels can be decided by the maker to restrict the complement of spells auto-cast.
Nowhere in the first post is there a requirement that the research levels should correspond to the critters in question. By design or not, I wouldn't know.

[Jurri]

Oh, yeah, I sent you my Rocky. Adriaan...

[quantum_mechani]

Are gems/blood slaves replenished between rounds?

[Turin]

If I understand him right, he gives each nation one of the SCs and sends them all into the same province in a single turn.
So no replenishing between fights.

[quantum_mechani]

Another issue- finding the item numbers. I know of no way to get the item numbers for misc items, and not everyone has a
save game with all weapons and armor forgeable...

[PvK]

Magic items DON'T HAVE ID's.

[quantum_mechani]

PvK said:
Magic items DON'T HAVE ID's.


Actually, they do. Press shift+i on a unit equipped with magic weapons/armor and the game will display them(i.e. Wraith Sword, weapon nbr 110).

[Tuna]

Also, dont post your designs here, only names, so that others wont design something simply to counter you.

[PvK]

quantum_mechani said:

PvK said:
Magic items DON'T HAVE ID's.


Actually, they do. Press shift+i on a unit equipped with magic weapons/armor and the game will display them(i.e. Wraith Sword, weapon nbr 110).



That's the weapon number, not the magic item number. Some magic items are weapons, so they have a weapon number, but not a number for the magic item. At least, not one that there is any way to see.

PvK

[Tuna]

Also: No replenishing between rounds, and random spell paths ARE random, you dont get to choose them.

Gotta admit there's at least 2 very orginal choices already...

And spell paths are really only for spell restrictions.

So far 5 in, I'll make the game when 9 have signed.

[Graeme Dice]

Tuna said:
Also: No replenishing between rounds, and random spell paths ARE random, you dont get to choose them.



Forcing random paths makes scripting impossible, so I don't think that it will work too well. I'll have to redo my selection if that's how it works.

[PvK]

What do you mean "in the most unfair order"? Are they meeting one pair at a time, and you will play strengths against weaknesses? They aren't all going into a 16-way battle, are they?

PvK

[quantum_mechani]

PvK said:

quantum_mechani said:

PvK said:
Magic items DON'T HAVE ID's.


Actually, they do. Press shift+i on a unit equipped with magic weapons/armor and the game will display them(i.e. Wraith Sword, weapon nbr 110).



That's the weapon number, not the magic item number. Some magic items are weapons, so they have a weapon number, but not a number for the magic item. At least, not one that there is any way to see.

PvK


Ah, I see, I knew giving units magic weapons with modding didn't work, that explains why.

[Tuna]

Graeme Dice said:
Forcing random paths makes scripting impossible, so I don't think that it will work too well. I'll have to redo my selection if that's how it works.



Actually I gotta admit that is true. So, I will accept directed randoms. Bear with me, it's the first time I've ever done this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuna]

PvK said:
What do you mean "in the most unfair order"? Are they meeting one pair at a time, and you will play strengths against weaknesses? They aren't all going into a 16-way battle, are they?

PvK



They are. That is "the most unfair way possible".
Once I get this done I will most probably develop some a little more advanced rules and do this again, more than once. Sort of testing now if there is enough interest.

(edit)with 16-way meaning they are all dumped into same province on the same turn, playing 1 vs 1 in totally random order ofc.(/edit)

[quantum_mechani]

'Spathi-god' has been sent on his way to the arena...

[The_Tauren13]

Brick is joining the tourney and will pwn j00!!!!11!!!oneoneone!!1

[Endoperez]

I think he is doing it through map commands, with which one can add commanders to provinces, equip them, give them chosen magic paths etc.

[Tuidjy]

Interesting.

May I ask for a clarification? If one chooses a pretender chassis, does one get
an actual pretender, or the result of a wish? It does make a difference.

But anyway, I am off to think of something that could take out the Doom Horror.

[Huzurdaddi]

Tuidjy said:
But anyway, I am off to think of something that could take out the Doom Horror.



I figure magebane should be able to kill it unless I am mistaken about how magebane works ( IIRC 100 fatigue to anything with magic paths ).

Actually I think a lot of this will revolve around how to get around magebane or it will all be about who gets to strike 1st. But that's just with 60 seconds of thinking. I'm sure others will be far more clever.

[Tuidjy]

Magebane is an unique item, and thus forbidden.

[Tuna]

Tuidjy said:
Interesting.

May I ask for a clarification? If one chooses a pretender chassis, does one get
an actual pretender, or the result of a wish? It does make a difference.



Added with a map command, equals one gotten trought wish. If I added real pretenders I would have to worry about dominion levels and all...


Endoperez said:
I think he is doing it through map commands, with which one can add commanders to provinces, equip them, give them chosen magic paths etc.



Yep.

[Tuna]

Tuidjy said:
But anyway, I am off to think of something that could take out the Doom Horror.



Doom Horrors aint *that* tough, they easily succumb to anything elemental.


Huzurdaddi said:
Actually I think a lot of this will revolve around how to get around magebane or it will all be about who gets to strike 1st. But that's just with 60 seconds of thinking. I'm sure others will be far more clever.



No magebane. Actually, I think there is something that everyone should design their pretender specifically agaist, but apart from the single pretender using it, I can't see any others designing any sort of protection against it. What is it? Not telling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saber Cherry]

I entered Gaap. I hope he lives up to his fearsome reputation=)

[alexti]

Do I understand correctly that you get to choose randoms and plus 3 extra paths? It's quite a lot of magic for SC:)

[Zen]

Zen entered the stadium. His SooperCrombat-mon Ball flung into the air, Anthrax, I choose you.

[Huzurdaddi]

Huzurdaddi selected his champion: silicis.

Whoops about the magebane thing. I should actually read!

[alexti]

Castor joins the contest...

[The_Tauren13]

Antrax? The fallen fire king? Why didn't I think of him? That banefire shield is nothing to sneeze at...

[alexti]

Anthrax is good at killing things (even after his own death), but I wouldn't bet on Anthrax surviving 15 different encounters. Couple of solid hits from some Tartarian and Anthrax is gone. But of course, Zen probably came up with some idea I haven't thought of http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Please, please, PLEASE make the turn file available for download after you have completed this. I expect there will be some quite interesting battles in there...

[Tuna]

Endoperez: That would be the point.

Zen: did you send the Pm already, haven't received yet.

[Yvelina]

Sign me in! The one-eyed Bastard, my old favorite... I'll be PM'ing Tuna with the specs :-)

[Turms]

I have sent Jeppe to combat.

Turms

[Tuna]

*bumb*

Come on fellas, still not full...

[Vicious Love]

alexti said:
Anthrax is good at killing things (even after his own death), but I wouldn't bet on Anthrax surviving 15 different encounters. Couple of solid hits from some Tartarian and Anthrax is gone. But of course, Zen probably came up with some idea I haven't thought of http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Hmm... Phoenix Pyre+Regenerate+Banefire of DOOM = teh h4wt, but without the Sandals of the Crane, survival is still a problem. Maybe there's an E1 A1 empowerment involved?

[Tuidjy]

How many entries so far? How many are we waiting for?

[Tuna]

13, and wont start until full house.

One thing, I'm still lacking zens pretender, and he said here he will send me one.

[alexti]

Vicious Love said:

alexti said:
Anthrax is good at killing things (even after his own death), but I wouldn't bet on Anthrax surviving 15 different encounters. Couple of solid hits from some Tartarian and Anthrax is gone. But of course, Zen probably came up with some idea I haven't thought of http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Hmm... Phoenix Pyre+Regenerate+Banefire of DOOM = teh h4wt, but without the Sandals of the Crane, survival is still a problem. Maybe there's an E1 A1 empowerment involved?


Phoenix Pyre is not very helpful in such contest, if the opposition has managed to land enough hits when your SC was conscious, surely it will have no problems doing it again to unconscious SC. To me this plan only looks good if the goal is to annihilate enemy SC at any cost. I'm getting really curious what Zen has came up with... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Generally, I don't think one can design SC who could reliably win such a contest. It's more a matter of luck (between few designs). I had 3 designs which could do pretty well, but each of them had a weak spot, other design could easily exploit. I think that it will be pair matching which will decide the contest.

[Ygorl]

Bam-Bam has been entered... Thanks for running this!

[Chazar]

I'd like to participate, but I cannot decide between two ideas. So I ask some questions first:

1) What about equipping clams or other gem generators? Will all battles be fought in the same round or one after the other, allowing gem generators (who take up a pretty valuable spot) to work?

2) Are wished for pretenders identical to what I see in the actual Black UnitView Map from SaberCherry?

3) I guess prophets are not elligible, right?

4) What about equipping the Shroud of the Battle Saint? Am I able to choose a ridiculous huge bless effect or is there some limit? (Same actually applies for any sacred commander who might bless him- or herself.)

5) What about morale? Do I need to equip some berserking item to prevent routing for combatants who still have something to loose?

6) Do battles take place in truly neutral dominion with balanced heat/cold scale, like an arena death match?

I know that I am always too complicated, sorry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif ...and never mind the bless quesiton, for I do not want to choose a sacred combatant anyway - I'm just curious about the options...

[Tuna]

Chazar said:

1) What about equipping clams or other gem generators? Will all battles be fought in the same round or one after the other, allowing gem generators (who take up a pretty valuable spot) to work?




nope, battles happen in same round, so clams are useless.



2) Are wished for pretenders identical to what I see in the actual Black UnitView Map from SaberCherry?




Yeah.



3) I guess prophets are not elligible, right?




Right.



4) What about equipping the Shroud of the Battle Saint? Am I able to choose a ridiculous huge bless effect or is there some limit? (Same actually applies for any sacred commander who might bless him- or herself.)




No bless other than the morale, I'm afraid.



5) What about morale? Do I need to equip some berserking item to prevent routing for combatants who still have something to loose?




Well, sc's rarely rout anyway, but it IS possible.



6) Do battles take place in truly neutral dominion with balanced heat/cold scale, like an arena death match?




Yeah, I will create each nation with balanced scales, and fight the match in a province that has land connection to most, if not all, capitals, and a few hiding stone idols present.



I know that I am always too complicated, sorry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif ...and never mind the bless quesiton, for I do not want to choose a sacred combatant anyway - I'm just curious about the options...



np.

[Ighalli]

Ok, just for the fun of it, I'll throw in a design of my own. Drauglin joins the fray!

[Jurri]

Ighalli said:
Ok, just for the fun of it, I'll throw in a design of my own.

What other reason could there be? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Chazar]

Todd Brawn wants to fight until the dawn!

[Taqwus]

Hmm. I wonder how many first-action casts of Petrify one's likely to see.

[alexti]

Taqwus said:
Hmm. I wonder how many first-action casts of Petrify one's likely to see.


Why first action? There isn't enough range. So if you want to bet on petrify you better make sure you have no quickness and script something like ironwill+summon earth power+petrify x3+attack. And bring wraith crowd. But it won't work so well if the opponent relies on some monster with one gazillion of various attacks and scripted on attack.

[Tuna]

Ok, We're Full. The final list is:

Azhur, Azhur.
Turin, Blubba.
Jurri, Rocky. (2nd version)
The_Tauren13, Brick.
Graeme Dice, Horalak.
quantum_mechanic: Spathi-god (2nd version)
Saber Cherry, Gaap.
Huzurdaddi, (name unspecified).
Alexti, Castor.
Oversway, Grrrr.
Turms, Jeppe.
Yvelina, (name unspecified).
Tuidjy, (name unspecified).
Ygorl, Bam-Bam.
Ighalli, Draughlin.
Chzar, Todd Brawn.

I'm gonna go to school now, so if you want to do any last-minute changes, you have about 6 hours. please fill up at least some of the names http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuna]

Zen said:
Zen entered the stadium. His SooperCrombat-mon Ball flung into the air, Anthrax, I choose you.



I quess you just forgot or something. Too bad, I really would have liked to see Zen in action. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Tuna listed only 16 pretenders, so there is place for Anthrax as the 17th. Maybe Zen is trying to surprise the others?

[Saber Cherry]

Can I rename Gaap to "Hello Kitty"?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Chazar]

Taqwus said:Hmm. I wonder how many first-action casts of Petrify one's likely to see.

Suddenly I feel much less genuine... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuna]

Endoperez said:
Tuna listed only 16 pretenders, so there is place for Anthrax as the 17th. Maybe Zen is trying to surprise the others?



Oops. I feel really dumb now. Well, as a defence listing them was the first thing I did in the morning, so there's no reason to expect I actually could count while typing that.

So, still taking one entrant, whoever is first gets it. If there's no new post in a hour or so, I'll even take duplicates. Coding in the present ones first.

[Tuna]

I just found another sliiight problem. There are 2 sphinxes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I quess I'll just have to mod him strategic move and hope that that'll work.

[Endoperez]

Zen is not on the list, but has already announced he is on the game. You just forgot him from the list.

[The_Tauren13]

Tuna said:
I just found another sliiight problem. There are 2 sphinxes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I quess I'll just have to mod him strategic move and hope that that'll work.


What else could you do, even for 1 sphinx?

[Endoperez]

Teleport, but that would screw the order of battles...

[Tuna]

Cant teleport a sphinx. Just doesn't move...

[Tuna]

Endoperez said:
Zen is not on the list, but has already announced he is on the game. You just forgot him from the list.



Didn't forget, but never got the PM, of which I have mentioned several times here.

Anyway, just cant't do it with the sphinxes. (sp?)

They are just too immobile to move, even when given additional strat move. So, at least other of the sphinx owners has to change pretender, and if other of them wants to keep his he has to pay with having to fight EVERY single battle in order to win...

[Endoperez]

What about a mod? I don't know how to take that "fist" attack go away, so he gets -1 def and weak attack. I quess that could be worked around by adding new weapon, "Useless Thing", with -100 damage, -100 attack, +0 defence and length 0. That would still give the sphinx possibility of attacking, which would fatique it, and enemy chance to repel.

#modname "Sphinx Mod"
#description "A Sphinx Mod, to add a moving Sphinx for Tuna's competition."
#version 001

#selectmonster 159
#clear
#clearspec
#name "Sphinx"
#descr "A Sphinx."
#ap 2
#mapmove 1
#hp 500
#size 6
#prot 30
#str 20
#enc 0
#att 5
#def 0
#prec 10
#mr 18
#mor 30
#gcost 60
#rcost 0
#pathcost 40
#startdom 4
#itemslots 4096
#poisonres 100
#amphibian
#neednoteat
#inanimate
#end

[Chazar]

I do not get the problem entirely (first attack?), but isnt it somehwat odd to allow non-teleporting immobiles at all? I thought this is a competition about the best all-purpose SC-hunter and I have difficulties to imagine a sphinx hunting around highly mobile SCs...?!

[Oversway]

1 sphinx or other immobile could start in the fight province, but yeah 2 is problematic...

[Chazar]

BTW: What happens if two fountains battle each other? Is it simply the case that the defender wins by the battle turn limit?

---

I also noticed that you did not ask where the combatants should be placed on tactical setup...?

[sushiboat]

With all this effort being put into this competition, you might as well run the fights several times and see whether there are any consistent winners and losers.

[Tuna]

sushiboat said:
With all this effort being put into this competition, you might as well run the fights several times and see whether there are any consistent winners and losers.



Yeah, planning to. But first I need some more competitors, as there are only 14 left now.

[Taqwus]

Well, the fountains likely have spells to duel each other with, so it's not inconceivable that one wins. They might also summon monsters to help...

If neither kills the other before the time limit, the attacker presumably explodes at the "all attackers who haven't retreated instantly die" mark.

I wonder how viable an all-offense 'Ginsu the Damned' approach (e.g. Nataraja casting Curse and Astral Weapon, then using a ridiculous number of attacks to maim the enemy into a blind, crippled, feebleminded mute) would do; it'd be readily countered by regen, I think, but would perhaps be amusing anyway.

Different tack from a hypothetical 'Zzzz' approach (e.g. Ettin Mandragora w/ E3, RoWizardy, stockpile of Earth gems, casting Petrify and then attacking with those nasty sleep vines), or perhaps an absurdly extreme 'Tim "More Power' Taylor' approach going for pure damage.

[Oversway]

Absurdly extreme 'Tim "More Power' Taylor' approach going for pure damage



This sounds like what I went for. I don't think it will do so well but it was fun to design. Hmm, I probably should have used a Nataraja chassis instead of what I used. Oh well.

[Chazar]

Taqwus said:I wonder how viable an all-offense 'Ginsu the Damned' approach (e.g. Nataraja casting Curse and Astral Weapon, then using a ridiculous number of attacks to maim the enemy into a blind, crippled, feebleminded mute) would do; it'd be readily countered by regen, I think, but would perhaps be amusing anyway.

Nooo! He did it again! Stop posting! Why exactly do you think that I put all those regen items on my petrifier-combatant??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ighalli]

I just replaced the sphinx design I had with something more reasonable. Let the games begin! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[alexti]

Taqwus said:
I wonder how viable an all-offense 'Ginsu the Damned' approach (e.g. Nataraja casting Curse and Astral Weapon, then using a ridiculous number of attacks to maim the enemy into a blind, crippled, feebleminded mute) would do; it'd be readily countered by regen, I think, but would perhaps be amusing anyway.


That's a good approach, but maiming is not necessary. With few life draining weapons he will fatigue anything non-lifeless. And lifeless SC has many other problems. Regeneration is not likely to help either (maybe, except some super-Tartarian with 2 regen items and casting personal regeneration). However, very high defense will counter such Nataraja. Damaging shields and high attack/high damage can counter Nataraja too.

The ultimate gamble I think is Gifts from Heaven. You can score the hit across the field and even one hit is an instant death for most SC. The problem is that even with precision in 30s it doesn't hit reliably. The win/lose ratio is pretty good, but not enough to win against several SC in a row.

Funny style is to take nature loving tartarian with MR penetration items and script on attack, Charm x 4. If it succeeds, you'll have 2 SC in the next battle, increasing the chances to charm another SC. After couple of successul charms it will become virtually unstoppable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I think that in term of chances this plan may be the best overall, but it's either win a contest or lose immediately.

[Taqwus]

Oh, with the regeneration I had in mind its effect on affliction chances moreso than the hp healing. IIRC, once cursed you have a greatly increased chance of afflictions per hit -- but regeneration cuts that down to more acceptable level. Against life draining rather than maximizing sheer attack count / maiming, yeah, it matters a bit less.

Gifts from Heaven would be amusing and effective if it hits, although with the number of shots it might take you'd probably want to have storms up and be blinking to slow down (most... not Air Queens, Pazuzu, similar) attackers from meleeing before you hit. (Hm, has anybody been killed by his own badly-aimed Gifts when the enemy got close?)


Odd thought: Is there a chance that the first winners might get heroic abilities that would skew things? Well, they won't be of high magnitude... but at what level do heroic quickness or precision start? 'course, if these abilities are only added at the end of the turn after all battles, then it doesn't matter.

[alexti]

Taqwus said:
Gifts from Heaven would be amusing and effective if it hits, although with the number of shots it might take you'd probably want to have storms up and be blinking to slow down (most... not Air Queens, Pazuzu, similar) attackers from meleeing before you hit. (Hm, has anybody been killed by his own badly-aimed Gifts when the enemy got close?)


Good one would be to squash both SC by a single set of gifts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[sushiboat]

Taqwus said:
Odd thought: Is there a chance that the first winners might get heroic abilities that would skew things? Well, they won't be of high magnitude... but at what level do heroic quickness or precision start? 'course, if these abilities are only added at the end of the turn after all battles, then it doesn't matter.


Tuna could make a map with 10 indie commanders who have so much experience that they won't be pushed off the Hall of Fame list during the competition turn.

[RonD]

sushiboat said:

Taqwus said:
Odd thought: Is there a chance that the first winners might get heroic abilities that would skew things? Well, they won't be of high magnitude... but at what level do heroic quickness or precision start? 'course, if these abilities are only added at the end of the turn after all battles, then it doesn't matter.


Tuna could make a map with 10 indie commanders who have so much experience that they won't be pushed off the Hall of Fame list during the competition turn.



That's not "the immortal bug" - that's "the immortal feature!"

[Tuna]

Sorry, was rather busy today, and will probably be for good part tomorrow. I'll do it by saturday the latest.

On the plus side, Zen sent me his. Actually, I think his design is rather good for real gaming, but I wonder if it'll last 5 seconds in this match... Well, we'll see.

[Ygorl]

Any news on this?

[Tuna]

Ygorl said:
Any news on this?



Sorry. RL kicks you in the head when you least expect it... I spent most of the weekend coding and frankly, I couldn't bring myself to write the pretenders down when I've just spent 20 hours in front of borland Jbuilder.

I'll do them today, honest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Chazar]

No worries! I can live with some delay before I learn of my defeat...

(Isn't it good to be pessimistic? You're never disappointed about the results you get!)

[Tuna]

Tuna said:
I'll do them today, honest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Apparently my word is still worth zilch. The clock is 0:49 and I'm damned tired. All pretenders written in but still have to generate the game, research the spells, and set orders. I'll do it first thing tomorrow after school.

[Tuna]

Well, someone suggested this. The results were repeating, until a certain pretender joined the stage, winner was uncertain, after that all fights were taken by him.

What is really funny is that abysia had some hilarius 2-fight performance, looking like sure winner in the first fight but not following his script on the second.

Notes: I hope I got everything right, if you think I messed something up I still have the save from turn before, so I can fix it and see if results still correlate.

The battle order is not random at ALL, it's just direct order of nation numbers.

I forgot to do the exp thingie, but there were only 2 heroics in the fights, both with precision and neither used spells that uses precision.

Oh, am I going to announce the winner?

No, you'll have to dl the file and see fot yourself. The winner combatant is named after a forum name.

[Ironhawk]

Whoa. Its direct order of nation numbers? Is that how it is with normal battles? People have always said it was random but I dont know of anyone having actually tested it.

Can't wait to d/l this when I get home!


Tuna said:
The battle order is not random at ALL, it's just direct order of nation numbers.

No, you'll have to dl the file and see fot yourself. The winner combatant is named after a forum name.

[msew]

can you post the turn file for 1 before the battle?

[Huzurdaddi]

Nice battles! Good strategy person who shall remain nameless, dont want to ruin it for others who have not seen the battles.

[Tuna]

Why not.

[Saber Cherry]

:cries:

And I was doing so well...

I think Hellbinds and Mind Enslaves are UNFAIR! I mean, that's not what did me in, but it probably would have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif A contest without them would be much more fun, since they change it from a "Supercombattant" contest into a "Supermage" contest that depends only on who goes first.

Also, I like the way my tail was chopped off, and then regrew for the next battle! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edit:

Thanks for hosting this, Tuna!

Edit 2:

Hope that didn't sound like I was whining... I was whining, of course, I just don't want it to sound like I was http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Tuidjy]

The reason that Abysia and Panagea did not follow the script in the second fight
is that 'Hellbind heart' and 'Petrify' have maximum ranges. I thought that
the winner was going cold turkey on Dominions... If I had know she was entering
the contest after all, I'd have stocked on more magic resistance ;-)

[Oversway]

Ah well I should have used a better chassis. Maybe a nat instead. Probably wouldn't have helped in the end. At least I took down one other sc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Congrats to the winner.

Thanks for putting this together tuna!

[Tuna]

Notes for next time: No directed randoms. Actually, I will clearmagic everyone and then add back the basic paths. That means, no random paths AT ALL.

And stock with some MR, ffs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

No spell research, I will just tell everyone to name the spells they want to use, and add them in in the file. Lot less hassle. Perhaps some limit on high-level spells to make it more combat-oriented.

Oh, and figured out that phoenix pyre was utterly suicidal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zen]

BAH, I'm at work so I can't check to see how my horse fared. I turned him in feeling he didn't have much of a shot, but after I looked at the actual rules (Full Gembox? Random + Additional Paths?) I knew he wouldn't last long.

I hope he at least killed one other SC. Poor little fancy lad.

[FrankTrollman]

The rules used ended up favoring Tartarians ALOT. The fact that Pretenders were walking in there with 6 picks (after buffing items) and the Tartarians were walking in with 13 was totally unrealistic.

Also, the lack of a "pretender" tag really overpowered Enslave and Hellbind. As such, the contest was more of a "who can find the loophole in the contest contest" than a "who can make the best SC contest". Still, kudos to the victor, you amply took advantage of the loopholes in that contest.

Even so, I think it might have turned out differently if more people had come in with good Mindless SCs. The only thing close was a gargoyle, and it wasn't even fully equipped.



No spell research, I will just tell everyone to name the spells they want to use, and add them in in the file. Lot less hassle.



Unfortunately, that's a bad idea. While it's less hassle, it's even more abusable. Imagine the effectiveness of the Slaver Squad if they could have shut off "Horror Mark" and the like. If SCs can input their perfect spell list as the only known spells, they won't do stupid crap when people outsmart them.

Things would go very differently, for example, if a Hellbinder had nothing else to cast and therefore ran forward if he was out of range...

Limiting spell lists to only requested spells is way too big of a powerup for spellcasters. And as we've seen, they really don't need powerups at all.

-Frank

[Zen]

Bah? You didn't include the Pretender Tag for the Pretender units? No wonder the charmers got as far as they did. My basis was that if you chose a Pretender Chassis it was a pretender. Part of the sacrifice of not being able to get into the HoF.

Maybe next competition, if you do one, you should define how you are going to go about it, instead of assumption. I definitely don't want to check out how my poor fancy lad did now. Not that he couldn't have been beat by other builds, because he could, only that the assumption was that as a Pretender he had the virtue of not being victim to charmables and sacrificed others to compensate. If not I more than likely would have chosen a super-high penetrating Charmer with outrageous paths that I get to choose on a Tartarian http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Zen said:
I definitely don't want to check out how my poor fancy lad did now.



Well, at least you didn't forget about the extra spellcasting encumbrance from a crystal heart that put Horalak at 117 fatigue once he finished buffing. That's one item that doesn't react well with phoenix pyre either.

[Zen]

Deleted

[BigDaddy]

Thank You for all the hard work, could you run another? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
(Edit - Statements removed)

[Huzurdaddi]

BigDaddy said:

Zen said:
Also the fact that it was all Titans, was unsurprising considering the full rules and not a very accurate depiction of a "SC" competition.



Tuna, I'm sure he means "I'm very frustrated, but Thank You for all the hard work, could you run another?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I'll second that! Nice work Tuna it was a great idea and very cool.

[Tuna]

BigDaddy said:

Tuna, I'm sure he means "I'm very frustrated, but Thank You for all the hard work, could you run another?"






Tuna said:
Notes for next time: No directed randoms. Actually, I will clearmagic everyone and then add back the basic paths. That means, no random paths AT ALL.

No spell research, I will just tell everyone to name the spells they want to use, and add them in in the file. Lot less hassle. Perhaps some limit on high-level spells to make it more combat-oriented.




Wonder why I made those remarks.

The problem with spell research is that so much can go wrong in those 18 turns, I had to revert twice. The research part was by far the most work. Perhaps I should add a couple of low-level spells to everyone in addition to their requested ones?


Any new rule suggestions, and I'm all ears.

[Oversway]

Even so, I think it might have turned out differently if more people had come in with good Mindless SCs. The only thing close was a gargoyle, and it wasn't even fully equipped.




Yeah, I forgot that gargoyles had a boot slot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif Plus the low MR (12!) was extra humiliting. I think it was the cheapest (or close to) SC out there. You could field that way before many of the others. Still, I think I would have been better off with

Nataraja, 3 astral
Two gloves of gladiator
starshine skull cap
cloak of invulerability
boots of quickness
flying carpet
ring of warrior
script: astral weapons, attack large monsters

20 still might not be enough mr, but overall this would be better. I enjoy the concept of 16 armor negating attacks against a still-buffing sc.

Another way to do this contest would be to design an SC with a fixed number of gems - 500 astral maybe? You have to account for alchemy. No limit on number combatants, etc.

[Chazar]

Very nice work, though the results were a bit disappointing too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

So you said you've repeated the match several times, but the result were all the same, right?

It would also be interesting to see the combatants printed together here for an easy reference. Do you have them all already typed in anway so that you can cut and paste them here?

[Boron]

New rule could be that you may cast only self-buffs and you have to design a melee SC .

Another idea could maybe be to let the SCs participate in the Arena Fight . Then i don't think that the SCs keep the mind enslaved other SCs .

Or you make the fight in several turns , only 1 vs. 1 and take away mind enslaved SCs during the combats .
If you take 16 SCs for the next competition then it would be 4 rounds :
1.round : 8 1on1 fights
2.round : 4 1on1 fights with the winners
3.round : 2 1on1 "
4.round : 1 1on1 "

Or you could make it like in Football with 4 groups were all 4 groupmembers fight once against each other and then the 2 best of each group participate in the final rounds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Yvelina was there any reason btw. why you did it with Enslave Mind and not with Charm ?
According to the rules you could have made a 14 Nature Tartarian also ? You would have had exactly the same penetration this way but also have kept enemy equipment imho .

[Jurri]

Charm has a range of only 20.

The deathmatch is a great idea. It removes any dominion-related problems from the organizer and isn't the fight order random in the Arena? Can't remember when I last saw one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Well, I'm pretty happy with my SC entry, Bam. He wracked up the second highest kills, while being probably the easiest to create in a normal game.

[sushiboat]

If there is a second contest, I would like to see Yvelina and Bam return without any changes. That way, we can see how the first contest's winner and runner-up do against the new creations.

[FrankTrollman]

In an arena the matches are random. Also, I think that enslave/hellbind heart/etc. are disabled in the arena. And I know for a fact that running away is disabled - so that would be the way to do it.

-Frank

[Tuna]

And you can wish for arena...

Anyway, i have made up my mind about the spell research: I will simply give all players enough research power to get to level 9 in all paths you have on your pretenders in just a couple of turns, and discard tech caps alltogether.

[silhouette]

This was a lot of fun to think about and watch Tuna -- thanks a lot for the time you spent! Maybe if some simple to maintain automations can be built, someone can setup some ongoing king-of-the-hill sort of matches, with a new battle every week, even with a couple of different hills with different rules (low-magic, w/ artifacts, no-pretenders, magic only, ...) ? Anyone recall corewars days? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I really expected someone to have sent an astral tempest golem, but I don't have the experience to know how to best equip him (SoS, Skullcap, Bone armor, regen, AMA, ???). I guess keeping enough pearls for a long series of 1 on 1's would be the biggest problem.

Sill

[Endoperez]

I suspected someone taking high-ish astral and casting Magic Duel. Against that 1 or 2 many had, it might have been worth the hassle... It would still have been risky, though.

[tka]

Tuna said:
And you can wish for arena...

Anyway, i have made up my mind about the spell research: I will simply give all players enough research power to get to level 9 in all paths you have on your pretenders in just a couple of turns, and discard tech caps alltogether.



Lot easier if you use my All Researched -mod.
link (http://koti.mbnet.fi/morag/spell.zip)

The .zip contains research level limiter mods also.

[Chazar]

What about ensuring some kind of all-round-sc capability? Each SC/Anti-SC is required to fight against 60 Militias, 30 Crossbows and 10 Knights before meeting the other SCs...

Of course, this would require a custom .map file and probably an artificial map containg 35 white dots linked like a wheel, but that shouldnt be much work to do...

[Tuna]

Chazar said:
What about ensuring some kind of all-round-sc capability? Each SC/Anti-SC is required to fight against 60 Militias, 30 Crossbows and 10 Knights before meeting the other SCs...

Of course, this would require a custom .map file and probably an artificial map containg 35 white dots linked like a wheel, but that shouldnt be much work to do...



Why not just do like I did? Check the neighbour data in the save...
I can always add a province there somewhere.

[Vicious Love]

I think I would have been better off with

Nataraja, 3 astral
Two gloves of gladiator
starshine skull cap
cloak of invulerability
boots of quickness
flying carpet
ring of warrior
script: astral weapons, attack large monsters

20 still might not be enough mr, but overall this would be better. I enjoy the concept of 16 armor negating attacks against a still-buffing sc.




Confused. Wouldn't four Swords of Swiftness be superior to two sets of Gloves of the Gladiator in every conceivable way?

[Saber Cherry]

Vicious Love said:
Confused. Wouldn't four Swords of Swiftness be superior to two sets of Gloves of the Gladiator in every conceivable way?



Yeah, GotG are pretty bad. Throwing in a Lucky Sword and Herald Lance might be wise too. A Stone Bird, Horned Helmet, Chi Boots, Jade Armor, 4x Sword of Switness Nataraja with Astral Weapon would be pretty impressive, though I doubt it would win. 30 armor-negating attacks per turn are hard to avoid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Chazar]

Tuna said:Why not just do like I did? Check the neighbour data in the save...
I can always add a province there somewhere.

Why? Well, I guess because you are just more clever than I am... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You're completely right, sorry!

[Oversway]

Confused. Wouldn't four Swords of Swiftness be superior to two sets of Gloves of the Gladiator in every conceivable way?



Ah, you are right.


Yeah, GotG are pretty bad. Throwing in a Lucky Sword and Herald Lance might be wise too. A Stone Bird, Horned Helmet, Chi Boots, Jade Armor, 4x Sword of Switness Nataraja with Astral Weapon would be pretty impressive, though I doubt it would win. 30 armor-negating attacks perturn are hard to avoid



I think you really want flying so that you can make sure you get to the sc quickly, before it buffs. The nat's strength is good but the base attack is only 11, which is why I threw a ring of warrior on it. Maybe change it it 2f1a since a higher astral weapons fatigue cost probably isn't going to kill you. It'll be the petrification or enslave mind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[silhouette]

Saber Cherry said:
... A Stone Bird, Horned Helmet, Chi Boots, Jade Armor, 4x Sword of Switness Nataraja with Astral Weapon would be pretty impressive, though I doubt it would win. 30 armor-negating attacks per turn are hard to avoid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Impressive to watch... vigorously fanning in the direction of the opponent with myriad blows each having an attack score of about 2 ... ok, so not real hard to avoid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Of course the rapid fainting like an octogenarian marathoner limits the entertainment duration. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Sill

[Graeme Dice]

silhouette said:
Of course the rapid fainting like an octogenarian marathoner limits the entertainment duration.



He'll only get his normal 6 fatigue per turn, and the Nataraja has a very impressive ambidexterity score.

[Saber Cherry]

I have a great idea for a nature - blood forgable item: Warrior's Arm. A misc item, it gives you an additional hand slot and +2 ambidextrity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You could even put them on Sphinxes and Great Bulls and Fountains of Blood http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[silhouette]

Graeme Dice said:
He'll only get his normal 6 fatigue per turn, and the Nataraja has a very impressive ambidexterity score.


Wow, thx, lots for me as non-MP player to learn. I use the Nat a lot in SP, so just Indy9 provinces and AIs (usually hydraskin, defensive weapon/shield, reinvig, scripted 5xbuff and attack). In a 1on1 like this, all that damage focus is pretty scary! Make him better and use strength boots instead of 2 kicks, add bear claw, lycanthrope amulet and get +12 damage on all the attacks!
Do you mean that the extra attacks from Jade don't cost extra fatigue each round? Thats a big surprise to me, since I only ever use Jade on undead because I thought it would double fatigue (and heavy to start with). Is that also true for the quickness spell?

Sill

[Graeme Dice]

Attacking costs your encumbrance score and uses all of your various attacks on a particular grid square. Attacking a second time through quickness adds your encumbrance to fatigue again, and lets the unit target a different grid square with all of its various attacks. As an example, the Ettin Mandragora with 3 sleep vines and three arms attacks one grid square each time it acts. Each weapon can only target a single unit in that grid square, so the three hits from a single sleep vine all will attack a single unit.