Rebalance Mod game now running on a 24h timer.

[Saber Cherry]

...the game is now running - good luck, everyone!






Ironhawk has been kind enough to offer hosting services for a multiplayer game based on my new Recruitable Rebalance Mod (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB74&Number=333673&page=0 &view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1). This game is intended to be somewhat low-magic, to better emphasize (and test) the balance between the recruitable units of various nations and independants, and see if they fit into their traditional roles... and provide a little relief from games with constant bombardment by artillery spells, Tartarian hordes, and so forth.

Currently in-game:

Ulm: Ironhawk
Vanheim: msew
Pangea: quantum_machani
Mictlan: The_Tauren13
Marignon: Patrick
T'ien Ch'i: Arralen
Man: Ighalli
Machaka: Tomahawk
Abysia: Grame Dice
Jotunheim: Cherry

(10 people)


Current game settings:

SET IN STONE

Mods:
Recruitable Rebalance Mod v7.1
Zen's God Mod v2.01
Level 4 Limit Mod v7.1 (Data ripped from Daesthai's Tome)

Map:
Arralyn's remade Parganos

Game Details:
Research: Very difficult
12-15 prov/player
Indy Strength 9
Hall of Fame 15
Richness: Rich
Graphs on - it's a test game, after all
Renaming Allowed
1 Starting Province
150% food (in rebalance mod)
Magic sites: 45

Affected magic items:
Clams and Fever Fetishes: Nerfed! (Clam WWWN, Fetish FFN)
Staff of Storms: Nerfed! (20 gems went to 40 gems)


Please download the attached modpack and read the spells readme. In general, levels 1-4 are unchanged, level 5 gets double cost, level 6 gets quadruple cost, and level 7-9 get 8x normal spell cost. But THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, particularly strong level 5 spells and weak level 2 summons.

The only items affected are the Clam, Fever Fetish, and Staff of Storms. I really hope nobody is annoyed by these changes (please consult the readme before deciding to be annoyed... they shouldn't really annoy anyone, I think...)


Edit. The attachment to this post has been removed. All needed game files are zipped together here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=341912).
This includes all mods and the map. After downloading these files, please put them in the maps and mods directories (happens automatically if you unzip them in the Dominions II directory). It may be necessary to add underscores to two filenames, since they were changed on the server-side:

Level 4 Limit.dm > Level_4_Limit.dm
Recruitable Rebalance.dm > Recruitable_Rebalance.dm

And then, please enable all three mods before desiging your pretender... and please password protect your god!

The commandline to auto-connect to the server is:

"C:\Games\Dominions 2\dom2.exe" --ipadr benatar.snurgle.org --port 2001

...depending, of course, on where Dominions II is installed.

[quantum_mechani]

I would like Pangaea.

What would everyone think of a blitz start for the first 10-15 turns? This would mean everyone being online at a certain time and quickly working though the early turns where there is not much to do.

EDIT: Are we using Zen's mods as well?

[Tuidjy]

I think that there is not much point to this unless we really make it a NO magic
game. I.e. lets disable all research over level 2 (except maybe for
construction) and non-human pretenders. If you really feel that clams and
wraith/hell swords need to go as well, more power to you.

But any house rules you can actually write out in a reasonable space will not be
enough to make the game low magic enough to bother with troops. In any case,
I would like Pythium... I have always claimed they not only have the best mages,
but also very nice troops - time to prove it. Of course, if we do not really
limit magic, Pythium is still a great choice, isn't it? :-)

[Ironhawk]

I've never played Ulm before - this seems like a good a chance as I will ever get!! Tho an improved TC is kind of tempting too... but not. Ulm! Ulm for me.

Oh and by the way: If you are looking for house rules which limit magic use and result in a more unit-centric game, check out those from my Age of Men Game (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=323545&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1)

AoM House Rules:
1) Only human pretenders.
2) Only recruitable commanders can be used as SCs.
3) Only 1 mage per 25 troops allowed in combat

NOW - before you all get on my case - I am NOT proposing these as rules for this game. I just wanted to point them out and see if it could serve as a starting point for some discussions...

[msew]

I will play.


*throws pokeball* I choose VANHEIM!

[msew]

only rule I can think of is:

for all nations that exist in the game, each turn the will send 15 gp to the nation I end up playing

[Saber Cherry]

quantum_mechani said:
What would everyone think of a blitz start for the first 10-15 turns? This would mean everyone being online at a certain time and quickly working though the early turns where there is not much to do.



First 10 turns, anyway. Fine with me, but only if everyone is able to do so.



[/quote]EDIT: Are we using Zen's mods as well?

[/quote]

Scales and pretenders, sure - if people want to. Magic will be superceded by the one I'm making (it is based on Zen's magic mod).


Tuidjy said:I think that there is not much point to this unless we really make it a NO magic
game. I.e. lets disable all research over level 2 (except maybe for
construction) and non-human pretenders.



Sounds a little harsh to me. If I had to set a hard research limit, it would be closer to level 3 or 4. But think that the game could be fine low-magic wise with Very Difficult research, some key items disabled, some key spells made much more expensive, and some easy-to-follow rules, like Thou Shalt Not Equip (certain classes of units, like summonables, and size 4+ gods) with Magical Items. If Horde from Hell costs 150 slaves and requires 4x the normal research, it will not dominate gameplay (that's just a hypothetical example).


AoM House Rules:
1) Only human pretenders.
2) Only recruitable commanders can be used as SCs.
3) Only 1 mage per 25 troops allowed in combat



As for rule 3... nice in theory... but I don't want people to be able to violate rules accidentally, which can lead to problems and hurt feelings. I like rule 2 (but would rephrase it as, "Only recruitable commanders and human gods may recieve combat equipment," or something like that.)

Rule 1... I think non-human pretenders would be fine if natural supercombattants (dragons, bulls, Earth Mothers, things with massive fear auras, vampire queens, etc) were totally banned and other non-human gods were banned from having magic items. In other words, I don't see a problem with using a Titan or Son of Neifel as long as you give it no items. But that's just my opinion, and I'm just one of 17 players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ighalli]

I'll go with man!

I'm in favor of using Zens scales mod, but I think we should restrict pretender choices to the point where his pretender mod might not be useful. Perhaps we could either pick a pretender with no magic or a human only. Thoughts on that? I'd also rather have a limit like level 4 research instead of just tweaking existing spell prices. That having been said, I'd be interested in a lower magic mod either way you decide to do it.

[Ironhawk]

Yeah good point ighalli. It would be way less work to just wipe out all spells over level 4, right? Then set research to Very Hard and we would still have a lot of diversity.

I think we need to allow magic on the pretender tho. First, it restricts pretender choices too severely. Second, many nations rely on thier pretender to get non-national magic paths. Someone in the unit-rebalance thread mentioned the idea of capping pretender magic at 9 levels total, which I thought was an interesting suggestion.

[Tomahawk]

hey Saber Cherry, I'm a friend of Ironhawk's. You can put me in for whatever nation, I dont' have time to look now (gotta go back to work) but please count me in.

[Arralen]

I thought this game was meant to A)let us all have fun and B) let us test the recruitable units mod, if it alters the DOM2 gameplay in a way that those recruitable units are worth at least something in a otherwise normal game.

I don't see much problem with the fun, but if we go and artificitally limit gameplay (mostly) to recruitable units, and ban combat pretenders and SC and high-level spell(casters), we will actually only test the mod for scripting errors, not for playbility changes: Everything the mod should achieve would be imposed on the player anyway.


Very difficult research is fine for me, I play with that setting most times anyway.

Nerfing the gem-producing items is ok, too, but shouldn't be overdone. They should pay after about 20-25 turns IMHO.

Nerfing of some (namely arty) spells is ok for me too, but again - making them absolutly useless will not help to make the test more "convincing". They should be altered as if nothing else is changed, as if to balance out the standard game.


That said, let me propose the game settings:

12-15 prov/player
indies 9
research very difficult
HoF 15
Graphs on - it's a test game, after all
renaming allowed


My nation of choice:
Tien Chi


EDIT: .. forgot about sites <= 45 ...

[Patrick]

I would like Marignon. I do like magic < 4 OR standard game with Zen's mod, but I do not like 'Only 1 mage per 25 troops allowed in combat'. Actually I do not like any rules that you have to be careful about. Everything should be enforced at onset.

[Ironhawk]

Please note: The rule you mentioned was covered by this caveat...


Ironhawk said:
NOW - before you all get on my case - I am NOT proposing these as rules for this game. I just wanted to point them out and see if it could serve as a starting point for some discussions...

[The_Tauren13]

Mictlan

[Huzurdaddi]

While I love the mod I just don't have time for a game at this exact moment but thanks for the invite I'll be watching!

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
While I love the mod I just don't have time for a game at this exact moment but thanks for the invite I'll be watching!



Ok=)

BTW: Patrick, are you st.patrick or someone else?

Arralen: The main point of this game is to test the mod; sorry if it seems like I'm forcing "low magic" down your throat, I had thought there was a consensus. Anything is fine with me, and I'll go with whatever people want, though my vote is for lower than normal magic (nerfing certain (IMO abused) spells).

Everyone: My HDD is dying and I cannot use my personal computer until sometime in the next 1-3 days, so my internet access will be sporadic until then.

[Ironhawk]

I'd like to vote for indy strength 8, maybe 7. Having indies at 9 is nice cause it will slow down first contact a little. But it will also give a disproportionately large bonus to whoever wins the first mercenaries.

I vote yes on option #2 and favor the suggested max level of 4. I think that would make for a really interesting game.

As for #4 I'm betting that most of us can agree on Zen's Pretender and Scale mods.


Saber Cherry said:
Indy Strength 9
...
1) Human pretenders only?
2) Magic research limit? (e.g., disable spells above level X)
3) Specific spells to eliminate / nerf?
4) Other mods to use? (e.g. Zen's mods)
5) Use of a mod (for example, the one I'm working on) that weakens high level magic?

[Arralen]

preferences
Sites <= 45

house rules
1) Human pretenders only?
No, please.

2) Magic research limit? (e.g., disable spells above level X)
No, please. We have very difficult research to keep magics at bay for some time

3) Specific spells to eliminate / nerf?
Wish (already mentioned), some arty spells, nothing I could think off the top of my head.
But some more items may need nerfing: leeching weapons for example should be way more expensive..., contracts or similar that gives summoned units for free, etc.

4) Other mods to use? (e.g. Zen's mods)
Indifferent.
Think most will interfere with the units mod, though.

5) Use of a mod (for example, the one I'm working on) that weakens high level magic?
We have very difficult research, we have nerfed spells/items already. Weakening magic even more seems superfluous to me.


suggestions:
- No bidding on mercs, unless 2+ are available the first time.

- no pink dragons !

[The_Tauren13]

I vote for no funny rules such as limiting research or magic limit on gods. I like the idea of just making a simple mod that makes all the overused stuff 2 or 3 times as expensive (ghost riders, life drain, flames from the sky, etc), and most summons (vine ogres, devils, living statues, etc) so we will use lots of troops. If we remove spells altogether, though, we wont even be playing dominions...

[quantum_mechani]

I kind of like the level 4 research limit idea...

Maybe if we have enough players (and Ironhawk's server is able) we should make two seperate games.

[Ironhawk]

Sheap's server can handle up to 6 games simultaneously and is not running any now that AoM is complete. So we can put up as many there as we are likely to need.

As for splitting off into two games: We could, but lets see what the consensus is or if there is a compromise that would cover any division.

[Graeme Dice]

I'd like to play, and I'd like the level 4 research limit as well, as long as the map is crowded enough.

[Tuidjy]

I usually do not see eye to eye with Patrick, but I will agree to one thing:
I would like to have rules that do not need enforcing during the game. Every
single time I have played games with such rules, people have been violating
them, deliberately or not. I would like something nice and simple.

The reason I would like to cap spells is that we want to use troops. I am sorry
to say, I usually do not build any melee troops past turn 10. Lately, my
girlfriend stopped buying troops - any troops, anytime. If you allow spells
like relief, drain life, wrathful skies, flame storm, false horror, troops
become useless. As for hard research, it does delay the time when troops become
useless, but not by that much. I assure you, on very hard research, I play
Pythium almost exactly as I play it on normal - I just start my expansion a few
turns later.

A few things:

If we will have blood nations and no caps on spell levels, magical resources
better be the standard multiplayer value of 50.

If we have a spell level cap, nation spells that are clearly above the cap, like
for example 'Blood Heritage', 'Wind guide', 'Fiend of darkness" should be modded
out.

[Tomahawk]

i'd like to play as Machaka. gracias amigos

[rabelais]

Saber Cherry said:
... but feel free to suggest and discuss any other special rules (for example, supercombattant pretenders like Natarajas, Cyclopses, Bulls, Dagons, Dragons, Shedus, Earth Mothers, and Wyrms could be banned, but only if that is something people want).





I dont mean to make trouble, especially since I'm not playing, but anyone who use a cyclops as an SC is crazy.

I think his eye has (at least) a double chance of being put out, and his precision (despite the fact that cyclopes throw rocks with astonishing accuracy in mythology) is atrocious.

He's an earth blessing platform.

Or with Zen's mod, (LOVE Zen's Mod, should be the Standard for Dom3) a leg up on a hammer.

SC? Really Bad idea.


Rabe (the Guy who thinks a wider variety of earth pretenders ought to be available...)


P.S. I might play what's left over in the game, if there's room.

[Ironhawk]

So, are we actually playing this as a blitz or no?

Cause the weekend is fast approaching...

[Ighalli]

I'd be up for a blitz, depending on when we want to do it. I definately can't Friday. SC might not be ready with her new mod by then, so we might have to wait regardless.

[st.patrik]

Patrick is not st.patrik http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

as for nations - all the ones I was interested in are taken already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

if we split into 2 games I'll join as Man, Pangaea, Vanheim, or best of all, Tien Chi

[Ironhawk]

Does that mean you arent going to play in this game st.patrik?

[Saber Cherry]

Saturday sounds fine to me for starting, if everyone else is OK with that.

St.Patrick: Sorry to hear that! Sure you don't want Golden Era Arco, with brand-new full bronze armor and weapons? Or Niefel Jotunheim, with new armor and weapons for the Niefels and better-morale militia? Abysia, with a unit finally able to blood-hunt effectively, fire mages with higher precision, better salamanders and holy units that don't fall asleep after 4 turns? Ermor, with improved soulless and Shadow Vestals?

Well, it's up to you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Feel free to start another game if you really want one of those 4 nations.

Rabelais: There's still plenty of room in this game, just check the first post and grab a nation! And as for cyclopses... they make great tramplers with luck, mistform, mirror image, ethereality, regen, and a horror helmet. Even when they're blind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ironhawk]

I can do saturday so long as it's a bit later on in the day (pacific time). My good friend's birthday is that friday and I am likely to be severely hung over the next morning.

Sunday works too.

What time actually works for everyone? I am in the Pacific timezone.

[tinkthank]

If no one else wants to, I could take Ryleh (but only if non-human pretenders are allowed ;-) heheh), and would also suggest my Spell Nerf Mod (posted on the main boards, updated by me) too. Otherwise I could take Jotun. Or Man. (Oops gone.)
I will not be able to devout a lot of time, however, and cant promise a blitz start, and if our baby comes early (due date 2 weeks) I'm out .... so feel free to choose a more reliable candidate.

[Ighalli]

I'd like to play rich resources if no one minds terribly... More money = bigger armies! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ironhawk]

I'd vote for rich resources as well. I am going to need all the help I can get! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arralen]

If you want big armies, you don't need "rich" setting, but decent castles, good scales and:

More supplies.

Supplies where nerfed compared to DOM1 by
- province size being only 1/4 in DOM2
- changed generation by castles (admin instead of supply value)

I test "300% supplies" and found it work rather well even for the AI ...

[Saber Cherry]

Spellmod for the game will be finished in a couple hours. It essentially does 1x cost for levels 1-4, 2x for level 5, 4x for level 6, 8x for levels 7-9. There are a few exceptions. Pretty simple...

As for richness: rich is fine with me.

3x normal food sounds like a lot, though. Is 150% OK? That's a good change... but not a huge change. I want this to evaluate the mod in normal play, to some extent, even though that's sort of already been violated by the magic nerf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

The final version of the Rebalance mod (7) is posted, and the game-specific level-4-limit mod will be posted before midnight (US Mountain time) tonight. Loks like everyone who want to play is signed up, so I'll take Jotunheim. We just need to choose a map now.

[quantum_mechani]

I suggest Urgaia or The Sundering.

[Graeme Dice]

I'd like to play Abysia if nobody has taken it, with C'Tis as a second choice.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:
I'd like to play Abysia if nobody has taken it, with C'Tis as a second choice.



Ok, you have Abysia.

Maps: How about Middle Earth (119 / 6 water), Parganos (135 / 19 water), or Sea and Sky (169 / 23 water)? Those give about 9, 10, and 12 provinces per nation, respectively. Sea and Sky is especially beautiful, as well.

The finished mods for the game are at the top; please examine them and say something if you have any complaints!

Ironhawk: Can a server be set up Saturday?

[Arralen]

There seems to be a bug (wrong spell name?!) in "Level 4 Limit" .. . Couldn't find it at a glance, tough. (Eyes are still hurting as I spend too much time in front of the computer this week...)

[Saber Cherry]

Arralen said:
There seems to be a bug (wrong spell name?!) in "Level 4 Limit" .. . Couldn't find it at a glance, tough. (Eyes are still hurting as I spend too much time in front of the computer this week...)




Argh, I'll check it.

[Saber Cherry]

Ok, I fixed it. There were several mispellings in spell names, which are all now corrected. This is (AFAIK) the first complete list of spells in mod format, so feel free to use it however you want... could come in quite handy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thanks for noticing the error, Arralen!

[Ighalli]

I thought we were going to use Zens scales mod too. Is this not the case, or was it overlooked in the first post?

Did you intentionally get rid of the national spells? I believe you need to change the pathlevel from 0 to -2 to keep them as nation specific. I know that in my test as man I can't use any spell songs.

[Saber Cherry]

Ighalli said:
I thought we were going to use Zens scales mod too. Is this not the case, or was it overlooked in the first post?

Did you intentionally get rid of the national spells? I believe you need to change the pathlevel from 0 to -2 to keep them as nation specific. I know that in my test as man I can't use any spell songs.



!!! Sorry... I'll just remove national spells from the list to avoid any possible problems.

[Saber Cherry]

Unless anyone has another preference (and no, Urgaia and the Sundering are way too small http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ), I suggest we use Arralen's revised Paraganos. I've attached the .rared .map and .tga. If you can't open .rar, please say so and I'll use a different format...

And also, because I'm incompetant, I had to revise the spell mod again to fix national spells, so please redownload that as well.

To clarify: the attachment to the first post contains mods, and the attachment to this post contains the map (since some people already have it and it's sort of big).

As for the scale mod: let's pass on that, to avoid any more confusion than there already is.

Edit: Sorry again... attachment pulled, use the file attached to Arralen's post.

[msew]

are we starting this game tomorrow sunday 2005-03-20?

[Saber Cherry]

Starting as soon as Ironhawk puts up a server.

[Ighalli]

You attached the wrong tga file, which causes the game to crash. Just edit the .map file to use the correct tga before trying to create a game and everything should be fine.

[tinkthank]

Sorry, must be quick: you'll have to count me out, soryy

[Ighalli]

Sorry to keep pestering you, but the cost of panic is jacked up to 2000 (should be 20) by your mod, because of a mistake in the Tome (listed as 20 gems, not fatigue).

[Arralen]

The .tga in Cherrys pack is actually the right one, but named incorrectly.

But I would suggest using the revised version (v2) of the Parganos - remade! map (attached).

[Saber Cherry]

Ighalli said:
Sorry to keep pestering you, but the cost of panic is jacked up to 2000 (should be 20) by your mod, because of a mistake in the Tome (listed as 20 gems, not fatigue).



Thanks for noting that; it's fixed and the modded version (7.1) is attached to the first post now.

Please download the correct map from Arralen, BTW http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sorry I make so many mistakes... in anime it's cute, but in real life... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[rabelais]

Saber Cherry said:

Abysia: Grame Dice
Mictlan: Rabelais (unless you want something else...)
Jotunheim: Cherry








I have come down with either the flu or pneumonia and don't think adding to my dominions play would be wise just now.

Looking forward to getting better quickly so I can try the Mod in MP on the next cycle! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Rabe the Infirm

[Saber Cherry]

rabelais said:
I have come down with either the flu or pneumonia and don't think adding to my dominions play would be wise just now.

Looking forward to getting better quickly so I can try the Mod in MP on the next cycle! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rabe the Infirm



Get well soon!

[Saber Cherry]

tinkthank said:
Sorry, must be quick: you'll have to count me out, soryy



(assuming labor commenced)

Thanks for giving us notice, and I wish you the best! Be sure to tell us the details. And congratulations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arralen]

Sorry to say, but you broke the Celestial Master ...
Holy-3 is missing.
Air instead of Water makes Acid Spells unusuable, while lighting-tossing isn't really that inventive ...

.. for more commentsm, see the thread in the main forum ..

A.

[Saber Cherry]

Fixed! Corrected version is attached. Thanks for noting the error, Arralen!

[Saber Cherry]

... and Spirit Mastery was exempted from the Level 4 Limit mod rules as a national starting spell.

[Ironhawk]

I was about to fire up the server but it seems there has been a flurry of activity with the mods. Lets give it another day to make sure it's stable. SC, I'm going to PM you back in a sec with my email addy and you can send me the exact map and mod files we will be using.

In other news: with the re-enactment of national spells, a relatively simple theme choice for me is Ulm BF, whose national Sanguine Heritage spell is effectively a substitute for the level 7 or 8 blood spell that gives you vampires. Is it against the theme of this game for me to choose BF?

Also, we are using Zen's latest pretender mod, are we also using the latest scale mod?

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
I was about to fire up the server but it seems there has been a flurry of activity with the mods. Lets give it another day to make sure it's stable. SC, I'm going to PM you back in a sec with my email addy and you can send me the exact map and mod files we will be using.



Sent... and posted here!


In other news: with the re-enactment of national spells, a relatively simple theme choice for me is Ulm BF, whose national Sanguine Heritage spell is effectively a substitute for the level 7 or 8 blood spell that gives you vampires. Is it against the theme of this game for me to choose BF?



It's fine with me. If BF Ulm can trash everyone else just because magic is (mostly) limited to level 4, that will demonstrate a major problem with the mod. But I doubt you can do it... bwahahaha!!!


Also, we are using Zen's latest pretender mod, are we also using the latest scale mod?



Just pretenders, sorry. If there is interest in a second round (with rebalance v8, fixing any errors and balance issues discovered in v7.X) we'll use the scale mod as well.

If you have not yet downloaded any files, the final version of EVERYTHING (all mods and maps) is posted here!

[Ironhawk]

The game server is now up for pretender uploads at:

benatar.snurgle.org

port 2001

(FYI: I changed the names of the mod files to get rid of spaces like so, Level_4_Limit and Recruitable_Rebalance. I didn't think the command line parser would accept them otherwise. Hopefully this will not effect gameplay)

[quantum_mechani]

I just want to say, BF ulm with new cheap B1 hunters and everyone else with limited research looks really, really scary.

EDIT: Does the mod also raise to cost of post-level 4 items?

[Graeme Dice]

So, exactly which versions of the various mods are we using, and which parganos.tga file are we using, so wehave as few early game mix-ups as possible?

[quantum_mechani]

Graeme Dice said:
So, exactly which versions of the various mods are we using, and which parganos.tga file are we using, so wehave as few early game mix-ups as possible?

Apparently, everything is in the attachment in cherry's last post.

[Saber Cherry]

quantum_mechani said:
I just want to say, BF ulm with new cheap B1 hunters and everyone else with limited research looks really, really scary.

EDIT: Does the mod also raise to cost of post-level 4 items?



I was going to nerf some items, like the blood contract / lifelong, but since it was not announced when people were signing up, I didn't want to "sneak them in". But don't worry about BF Ulm, since Abysia gained better blood hunters too. Hah, hah! The only nation that still needs them is Vanheim, with virtually no blood hunting ability.

BF Ulm's blood hunters are still less efficient than Mictlan's and Abysia's because they pay for high stealth, spy and assassin abilities. Worst case scenario, Marignon will take out the vampire counts with cheap fire-blessed flagellants and Paladins with their new Holy Swords. They're always on call to fight evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saber Cherry]

quantum_mechani said:Apparently, everything is in the attachment in cherry's last post.



Yes, all needed files are here. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=341912)

The only last-minute "mix up" is that you may need to rename the .dm files replacing spaces with underscores:

Level_4_Limit.dm
Recruitable_Rebalance.dm

And also, BE SURE TO HAVE THE MODS (ESPECIALLY THE PRETENDER MOD) ENABLED WHEN YOU DESIGN YOUR GOD!

Otherwise, who knows what will happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tuidjy]

I really dislike the extra mods this game ended up with, and I especially
dislike the haphazard nature of the changes. I am out.

[quantum_mechani]

Tuidjy said:
I really dislike the extra mods this game ended up with, and I especially
dislike the haphazard nature of the changes. I am out.

Given the complexity of dominions, it is impossible to imagine a wide balance mod getting it right in the first version or two. I quite like the level four restrictions mods, it is interesting to see which spells are worth going past the level 4 barrier to get.

[Saber Cherry]

Tuidjy said:
I really dislike the extra mods this game ended up with, and I especially
dislike the haphazard nature of the changes. I am out.



Sorry about that; I was doing my best, but it's hard to make everyone happy or do everything right the first time. The mods are really too big for me to triple-check everything whenever a change is made, without missing some errors due to the huge volume of data...

So, thanks to those of you who are playing; hopefully your input will help the rebalance mod become more fun, fair, and error-free. And I expect we'll have a good time as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ironhawk]

No worries Q. I decided not to take BF Ulm. I felt it was against the spirit of the game.


quantum_mechani said:
I just want to say, BF ulm with new cheap B1 hunters and everyone else with limited research looks really, really scary.

EDIT: Does the mod also raise to cost of post-level 4 items?

[Ironhawk]

Yeah the mods could have come out in a more gracefull fashion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But given that SC has proven in the past to have the ability to turn out good mods on a normal timeline I am entirely chalking this one up to the rushed nature of trying to get the game running this weekend. And on top of that, this mod is still beta IMO so changes are to be expected.

Anyway, sorry about the slowness of getting my pretender in. Ive been tied up a lot this weekend and even now I have to go do something. I will have my pretender in by tonight tho, for sure.


Tuidjy said:
I really dislike the extra mods this game ended up with, and I especially
dislike the haphazard nature of the changes. I am out.

[Ironhawk]

I now show 9 players in:

Abysia
Man
Ulm
Pangea
Vanhiem
Jotunhiem
Mictlan
Tien Ch'i
Machaka

Is that it or are we waiting for anyone else?

[Saber Cherry]

Waiting for Patrick (Marignon). I just sent him a PM.

[Patrick]

Sorry, I am in trouble downloading the mod-pack with dial-up. I should get it soon (hour) and then make a God. Thanks to Ironhawk for doing right and not getting BF Ulm! *Cheer*

Edit: I am in. (10:30 am, San Diego)

[Ironhawk]

Ok, I restarted the server without "no client start". Whoever logs in first, just hit the Start Game button and it will generate the first turn. I would do it myself but I am at work and dont have a dom2 client here.

Edit: Hahah!!! that was quick. The prize goes to Ighalli who started the game like less than 5 minutes after my post. The first turn is now up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ighalli]

Done and done. May the best Man win! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I actually must have connected to the server right when you put it up! I thought "why can I use the start game button all of the sudden?" and checked here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saber Cherry]

Ighalli said:
Done and done. May the best Man win! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Cute, but I'm rooting for the best Catgirl http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ironhawk]

So, as some of you have already seen the server currently has no timer. I did that cause I wanted to make sure people knew the game was up and running before putting any time limit on it. Once everyone is in and the first turn generates tho, would anyone have an objection to putting the game on 24hr quickhost?

[quantum_mechani]

Ironhawk said:
So, as some of you have already seen the server currently has no timer. I did that cause I wanted to make sure people knew the game was up and running before putting any time limit on it. Once everyone is in and the first turn generates tho, would anyone have an objection to putting the game on 24hr quickhost?

Sounds fine to me.

[Saber Cherry]

I like 24 hours.

[Ironhawk]

Mict is still out. Does tauren know the game is started?

I will PM him...

[The_Tauren13]

Sorry guys... I went out of town briefly, not thinking the game would actually get going this quickly.

[msew]

if you are the last person to do your turn please, turn twice.

meaning: complete your turn. wait for the turn generation. then turn again

[Ironhawk]

The turn has been generated so I have switched the server over to 24hr quickhost. Good luck everyone!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I concur with msew as well: Last player turns twice.

[Saber Cherry]

The_Tauren13 said:
Sorry guys... I went out of town briefly, not thinking the game would actually get going this quickly.



No problem.

(Edit: rest of post depreciated.)

[The_Tauren13]

msew said:
if you are the last person to do your turn please, turn twice.

meaning: complete your turn. wait for the turn generation. then turn again


I almost always do, but last night I was deathly tired and wanted nothing more than to fall on my bed and sleep...
But, no harm done; I am on spring break this week and I assure you I will be completing my turns in a very timely fashion.

[Saber Cherry]

I hope I'm not near Machaka; spiders are creepy.

Incidentally, looks like Patrick staled. Wonder what he's up to?

[Ironhawk]

He is last out again, already, as well.

[msew]

Hope I am near patrick!

[Saber Cherry]

Patrick seems to be unavailable. I assume something unexpected occured... shall we switch him over to computer to avoid an unbalancing event (like grabbing an early second capitol)? I had really been hoping to see Marignon's lineup on the field...

[Ironhawk]

I was going to move for a vote for just such a thing if I checked the turn in the morning and found him holding it up again. If you and others already feel that way tho then I am totally behind it. Could even get Sheap to be the one to set him to AI so I dont see where his capital is.

[Ighalli]

I'm all for getting this game moving on a bit quicker. I say if he stales again tonight then we change him to AI.

[Ironhawk]

Patrick has until 5:30pm Pacific to do his turn. If he fails to do that, he will be set to AI. This will hopefully give poeple on the east coast of the US a chance to turn again today and put us in a good position for this weekend.

[msew]

I will be out of town from wednesday morning until friday morning.

Want me to find a sub? I probably can do that I think.

[Saber Cherry]

If you can find one, that would be ideal, and prevent a 48h play stoppage or 2 missed turns...

[Arralen]

Obviously, T'C still isn't up to the task of being survive-able in a MP game.

Besides it's horribly expensive mages prefering to target blood slaves (and not hitting them) and their horribly mage-time (of those horribly expensive mages) consuming Demons of Heavenly Fire, who cannot hit the broad side of a barn, even after flying over and landing just in front of it's axes, obivously the battle magics suck due to being path-1 or path-2 at best and early research non-existant because the preciour mage-time goes into national summons.

Chariots are still not worth the cost, mostly to dumb AI (as all those other nifty units). Best bet are still those bowmen - if there were any decent troops to form a meat shield in front of them.

So, after loosing troops 3:1 against a Mictlan, I turn the crappy leftovers to AI control. After all, it botched to battles, now should it see how it gets along with the rest.

If anyone thinks about beefing up T'C S&A, this is what it obviously needs (This is a hint to the devs, as themes cannot be fully modded !!):

- Master of the way with Astral: Communion, Conjure Nationals

- cheap standard commander: mages are expensive, lousy commanders, the charios are lousy too, and 'only' half as expensive

- Better selection of starting units: Other nations get a scout (which is really needed), shielded inf instead of pikeneers which die in droves to any missle troops.

- communion as starting spell: CM who can actually cast some spells which make a difference

[quantum_mechani]

Arralen said:
Obviously, T'C still isn't up to the task of being survive-able in a MP game.

Besides it's horribly expensive mages prefering to target blood slaves (and not hitting them) and their horribly mage-time (of those horribly expensive mages) consuming Demons of Heavenly Fire, who cannot hit the broad side of a barn, even after flying over and landing just in front of it's axes, obivously the battle magics suck due to being path-1 or path-2 at best and early research non-existant because the preciour mage-time goes into national summons.

Chariots are still not worth the cost, mostly to dumb AI (as all those other nifty units). Best bet are still those bowmen - if there were any decent troops to form a meat shield in front of them.

So, after loosing troops 3:1 against a Mictlan, I turn the crappy leftovers to AI control. After all, it botched to battles, now should it see how it gets along with the rest.


Sorry to hear about it, this sounds an awful lot like what happened to me playing S&A in Age of Men...

I have had (sort of) successful S&A games, where I at least get to the point of being the dominant power getting ganged up on. However, you need to get lucky with starting isolated/with peaceful bordering nations.

[Arralen]

Actually, I haven't turned the nation over to AI yet.

I had a look at the graphs. Now I just want to just sit by and wait if Mictlan manages to grab my castle before getting wiped out at home himself.

Going right for my capital, he managed to take 3 provinces - as much as me. Now he's sitting in the neighbouring province and waits for reinforcements. Meanwhile the other players grab provinces.

So here's my congratulation for effectivly taking us both out of the game early. A wise move, especially in a test game. This way a lot of valuable data about the changes to recruitable troops was gained:
Sun Warriors with Fire-9 bless, the pretender and a smiting prophet beat dispossed spirits, and T'C infantry and a handful of heavenly demons.

Not that I could have told that before ...

[The_Tauren13]

I had no idea that province was adjacent to your capitol, and I will have everyone note that it was you who attacked me first.

But what on earth do you have to whine about? Im sitting here with no money because of a stupid bug where I started with all my negative scales and none of my positive. I hope I die quickly.

Does anyone know if this god damned bug has been reported?

[Arralen]

Would you sit by and let another player pile up an army next to your homeland?

I think you left out some details - "No idea" .. you're not only parking your army there for 3 turns now, but moved in reinforcements. Strangly, there where 5 other directions to move when starting from homeland, but you went straight for my capital and didn't take over any other province.

And - if it's indeed a bug, why didn't you tell us on the second or third turn?

Now the game is pretty much busted, at least for testing purposes.

And if one thing proved: S&A isn't competitive. At least in my hands. But I do not play SC pretenders, so maybe that's how it must be played.

And I do not whine. I simply state the obvious - to me. Maybe I exaggerate.

[Ironhawk]

If you all will be kind enough to PM me with the province # of your respective capitals I will do my best to come and end your feud. PERMANENTLY!!! Heheheh.

As for me, one interesting thing I have noted about Ulm is that I am buying only one type of infantry. I want to diversify into the other infantries, but I cant because thier high resource costs mean low troop numbers. And with numbers that low I must ensure that all men in the squad have the same speed or they will "run" ahead and be killed and shatter the squad morale.

Additionally, I think the change to increase the cost of the Black Knight back up to its original 60gp was a mistake. While that makes them a *really* great deal, the truth is that the knights are Ulm's only truly potent weapon given its lack of any useful magic. They need to be a good deal for ulm to have any chance at all in a regular game.

[The_Tauren13]

OK, sorry I got angry with you earlier. It was just the combined anger from this bug and from something going on in another of my games.
To be honest, I took those 2 provinces because they were easier than anything else, and with hardly any money I couldnt put together much to go after real strong indies. When I saw I was adjacent to your cap, I decided "Aw what the heck, Ill start a war and get killed quickly to end the pain." Didnt realize just how good those sacred dudes are.

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
Does anyone know if this god damned bug has been reported?



Many times.

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
Didnt realize just how good those sacred dudes are.



Eagle warriors are even better in many cases, as they can cause huge amounts of havoc with a fire-9 blessing.

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
As for me, one interesting thing I have noted about Ulm is that I am buying only one type of infantry. I want to diversify into the other infantries, but I cant because thier high resource costs mean low troop numbers. And with numbers that low I must ensure that all men in the squad have the same speed or they will "run" ahead and be killed and shatter the squad morale.



Yeah, this is an interesting problem for me with Jotuns and Vaetti as well. They are excellent to mix together, giving 2 Vaetti and 1 Jotun per square. But Jotuns run way ahead unless you start them on the far right of the tactical map.

You might consider buying a cheap militia screen to stall the opponents, so that if the speed different is low, the slower ones have a chance to catch up by the time the enemy eats through the militia to hit your faster units. Other than that, and starting them at the far right, I'm not sure what can be done, but I'll look at the infantry lineup and their speeds...


Additionally, I think the change to increase the cost of the Black Knight back up to its original 60gp was a mistake. While that makes them a *really* great deal, the truth is that the knights are Ulm's only truly potent weapon given its lack of any useful magic. They need to be a good deal for ulm to have any chance at all in a regular game.



I should note that you're expanding faster than anyone at this point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But obviously, that may change when you start encountering nations and magic. I've been giving some thought to additional changes to Ulm units, like ingraining elemental and/or magic resistances into the armor, such that Full Plate + Full Helmet units become substantially different (better) than Chain + Helmet units, and more expensive.

Tien Chi and Mictlan: It's unfortunate to hear that you're both encountering problems. That negative scales bug is especially annoying... I'd thought it had been fixed.

Thanks for the suggestions on Tien Chi; Communion as a national spell (and MotW communicants) is probably a good idea, as flight is sort of... bleh. I'll look at Fire Demon stats and weapons precision as well; I've never used them, only the default TC summons. I was underwhelmed with the pig-men, though; very expensive for such a terrible unit.

[The Panther]

As for the TC Celestial Servents, the latest Zen mod has them mostly fixed: Those pig guys are now 2 earth gems, which is just about perfect for their worth (they are sacred which is why I think the 2 gem cost is correct). I truly doubt that nobody other than a rank beginner would spend 4 earth gems on them in the unmodded game version.

Also, the Celestial Soldiers can now be cast by any old CM under the Zen mod with the new A1S1 path requirements.

Heck, a bless effect for TC now becomes a very strong option because of the national summons!

All I can say is, GO ZEN!

Of course, S&A and BK are both still weaker themes in a very weak race. Zen mods alone cannot change this simple fact.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:


Of course, S&A and BK are both still weaker themes in a very weak race. Zen mods alone cannot change this simple fact.

His nation mod might http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(hopefully it can be merged with SC's mods)

[Huzurdaddi]

The Panther said:
Heck, a bless effect for TC now becomes a very strong option because of the national summons!




Well I don't know about very strong. The celestial soldiers with a N9 blessing are quite good. However note that your national mages are sacred as well and you really don't want them going beserk.

Still N9 celestial soldiers in are quite nice.

[Ironhawk]

Saber Cherry said:
Yeah, this is an interesting problem for me with Jotuns and Vaetti as well. They are excellent to mix together, giving 2 Vaetti and 1 Jotun per square. But Jotuns run way ahead unless you start them on the far right of the tactical map.



It is a fault of the game, really. A squad should attempt to stay together, even if it means moving as slow as the slowest unit (except if routing or some kind of special case). In the particular case of Ulm, my suggestion would be to just make all the "heavy" versions of each infantry have the same speed, speed 5 i believe. And all the light versions of the infantry have speed 7. That way you can mix and match to really get full use out of Ulm's only real assest, its armies.

Please note that I am not suggesting this to be done all across the board for all nations. I just think its valuable and viable in the case of Ulm since thier troops are all ***-slow anyway that I don't think anyone is going to complain about a loss of 2 movement points.


I should note that you're expanding faster than anyone at this point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I am. But my expansion is almost entirely due to a very strong pretender and effective use of mercenaries. From my test games (without pretender or mercs) I found that Ulm expanded at a rate of about 1 prov/turn vs indy 9 on turns 3 thru 9 whereupon you can just barely squeak out a second force for an average of 1.5/2 provs/turn after that. Which, to me, didnt seem radically different from any of the other strong military nations (man, abysia, etc..)

[Arralen]

speed starting Ulm
Try my Ulm mod - it's floating around on the forum (search for "Black Steel of Ulm"

To make all troops have the same battlefield speed an easy and not so easy task at once:
Battlefield speed depends on ("base chassis AP"-encumbrance), so as you as you change equipment speed changes most likely as well. Therefore it's the base speed of a unit that has to be adjusted. This can easily done via #ap <action points>. But you'll have to fiddle around with the value to get the desired result. Maybe sometimes you won't be able to really hit the mark and end up 1..2 movement points off. Which isn't that bad in my experience as long as the troops needn't march across the whole field before meeting the enemy.

Noted this down for the next version of "Black Steel of Ulm".

EDIT: Just skimmed through the unit roster with my mod active. See and behold: All inf has either 6,8, or 10 movement points. So there's the possibility to mix sensibly them already present. Try it out.

May I ask you a favour, Cherry? Could you keep Ulm out of your Rebalance Mod? Ulms Inf should be very special anyway. Furthermore, our mods wouldn't be incompatible then. I really hate it if we both put a lot of work (you considerably more than me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) into it and one makes the other invalid ...

edited: EDIT

[Saber Cherry]

Arralen said:
May I ask you a favour, Cherry? Could you keep Ulm out of your Rebalance Mod? Ulms Inf should be very special anyway. Furthermore, our mods wouldn't be incompatible then. I really hate it if we both put a lot of work (you considerably more than me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) into it and one makes the other invalid ...




Mmmmm... While I agree that there's a potential problem, I don't really like that particular solution. The intent behind the mod is to apply certain principles to ALL recruitable units of specific categories in the game; leaving out any nation, theme, or indy type causes balance problems or inexplicable irregularities (like, why do indy cavalry get bonus strength and HP, but not those of Nation X?). Unfortunately, this philosophy can cause incompatiblities with all nation mods, and the only way to solve that is to leave all nations out of the mod - which defeats the purpose... or leave out nations that are specifically being worked on by other people - which ends up being a lot of nations - and which again defeats the purpose.

I'm not trying to make a giant conglomerate mod in order to render all other mods worthless (like the "One Ring"), and I really doubt my mod could have that kind of effect. Look at Space Empires IV, for example - there are a huge number of mods out, many of them partially or totally overlapping, without particularly hurting each other.

Here's my proposed solution:

I took quite a lot of information, opinions, and ideas from your Ulm mod thread, and I'll be more than happy to credit you (and other thread participants) for them. However, I'm pretty sure that the final version of "my vision for Ulm" will be different from the final version of "your vision for Ulm," even though there will also be some similarities. So if you want, you (or anyone else with a nation mod) can take my mod, delete the Ulm units from it, add your Ulm units, and release it as "Recruitable Rebalance with Arralen's Black Steel of Ulm" or whatever, which would eliminate any incompatibilities.

I never really thought about accidentally treading on other peoples' toes, and I hope that's a reasonable response, because I don't want to invalidate anyone else's work...

[Ironhawk]

Arralen said:
EDIT: Just skimmed through the unit roster with my mod active. See and behold: All inf has either 6,8, or 10 movement points. So there's the possibility to mix sensibly them already present. Try it out.




All ulm inf in the rebalance mod have 5, 7, and 9 speed. So, while not the same exact values that is actually the speeds I have been working with and it has poor results. The faster units are invariably the lightly armored ones and they get to the front or the flanks where they are quickly killed, collapsing the squad morale.

At the very least, the "heavy" versions of all the ulm infantry need to be the same speed. [Heavy Axe, Flail, Hammer, Maul, Morningstar, and Pike] That way you can mix and match units into your ultra-heavy infantry blocks, since they are basically all you ever use anyway. It would be like a modular army. Want some more attacks in your squad? Add in some Heavy Flail. Need to bring down a heavily armed target? Add in some Heavy Maul.

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
At the very least, the "heavy" versions of all the ulm infantry need to be the same speed. [Heavy Axe, Flail, Hammer, Maul, Morningstar, and Pike] That way you can mix and match units into your ultra-heavy infantry blocks, since they are basically all you ever use anyway. It would be like a modular army. Want some more attacks in your squad? Add in some Heavy Flail. Need to bring down a heavily armed target? Add in some Heavy Maul.



Speaking of which, I think making Mauls 5ap damage was too much... Barbarians and Maul-using Ulmians became immensely powerful in this mod. I'm considering a change to 4ap or even 3ap, which still allows Barbarians and Ulmians to damage protection 30+ targets regularly (at the price of -1 defense and no shield) and possibly increasing the rcost and attack or defense penalty.

On the other hand, it did finally make mauls useful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ighalli]

Useful yeah, but on the other hand a block attached to the end of a stick isnt supposed to be better than a greatsword! The problem is with the AP flag I think. It would be nice if it ignored half the armor up to a max of X. Then maybe the maul would reduce enemy armor by 5 while fire attacks would half it no matter how much armor they have. Ahh well...

[Huzurdaddi]

So I have a question for you guys? Is Man dominating? In my test games his AP longbowmen put him at the top of easy expanders. He was very difficult to stop. I was wondering if this trend would continue in this mod.

[quantum_mechani]

Huzurdaddi said:
So I have a question for you guys? Is Man dominating? In my test games his AP longbowmen put him at the top of easy expanders. He was very difficult to stop. I was wondering if this trend would continue in this mod.

Actually, Man is around the middle of the pack. Ulm, Jotunhiem and Pangaea seem to be leading in most areas.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
So I have a question for you guys? Is Man dominating? In my test games his AP longbowmen put him at the top of easy expanders. He was very difficult to stop. I was wondering if this trend would continue in this mod.



I really hope Dominions III allows variable armor-piercing ratings (0-100% in 5% increments at least). If 9ap is much too strong on a longbow, though, I can always increase the price, drop it to 8ap, or (worst case scenario) return the longbow to its original stats, where it can't hurt knights at all. I'll be experimenting with #flail today (the command that makes morningstars ignore shields), and maybe I'll be able to make Blow Pipes (woodsman) ignore shields, since they are short range and highly accurate weapons that you would not aim at a shield. If so, I'll make boulders and ballista bolts ignore shields as well, if they don't already (I'm not sure).


Edit: What do you know, #flail works on projectiles. Watching longbowmen with #flail and 90 ap damage versus indies with 12-defense round shields is pretty funny.

[quantum_mechani]

One balance note: Independent lizard troops are quite inferior compared to barbarians and other fodder at the moment.

[Huzurdaddi]

quantum_mechani said:

Huzurdaddi said:
So I have a question for you guys? Is Man dominating? In my test games his AP longbowmen put him at the top of easy expanders. He was very difficult to stop. I was wondering if this trend would continue in this mod.

Actually, Man is around the middle of the pack. Ulm, Jotunhiem and Pangaea seem to be leading in most areas.



Interesting. Perhaps man is not using the 100% longbow armies or perhaps something horrible happened to him early on ( not a stretch there is a lot of random stuff in this game ).

Jotunhiem also worked very well in my test games I can easily see them doing very well.

Ulm ... well I never play Ulm but they were beefed up quite a bit.

As for Pangaea I've never played them and I don't understand them at *all*. It would be really cool if someone made an AAR of this game with saved turn files and explain how the heck to do well with Pan. What a bizzare nation ( again: IMO ).

[Ironhawk]

Saber Cherry said:
Speaking of which, I think making Mauls 5ap damage was too much... Barbarians and Maul-using Ulmians became immensely powerful in this mod. I'm considering a change to 4ap or even 3ap, which still allows Barbarians and Ulmians to damage protection 30+ targets regularly (at the price of -1 defense and no shield) and possibly increasing the rcost and attack or defense penalty.

On the other hand, it did finally make mauls useful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Yeah now that mauls are AP, they can probably drop a point or two in damage. But I wouldn't go further than that. They are two handed after all, so if the maulers ever come under missle fire, they are pretty much done for.

I agree, it *is* really nice to have the maul be useful!! It went from being a joke weapon to filling a really useful niche. Was there never any AP infantry melee weapon prior to this?? I'm thinking back now and I cant recall one... well, lances I guess? But thats not really infantry per se. On the topic tho, does anyone feel that mauls might be moving in on the territory of heavy cav? 13-14 dam ap attacks every round instead of once per battle?

[quantum_mechani]

Huzurdaddi said:

quantum_mechani said:

Huzurdaddi said:
So I have a question for you guys? Is Man dominating? In my test games his AP longbowmen put him at the top of easy expanders. He was very difficult to stop. I was wondering if this trend would continue in this mod.

Actually, Man is around the middle of the pack. Ulm, Jotunhiem and Pangaea seem to be leading in most areas.



Interesting. Perhaps man is not using the 100% longbow armies or perhaps something horrible happened to him early on ( not a stretch there is a lot of random stuff in this game ).

Jotunhiem also worked very well in my test games I can easily see them doing very well.

Ulm ... well I never play Ulm but they were beefed up quite a bit.

As for Pangaea I've never played them and I don't understand them at *all*. It would be really cool if someone made an AAR of this game with saved turn files and explain how the heck to do well with Pan. What a bizzare nation ( again: IMO ).

I could write an AAR for this game, though I played Pan quite a bit different with white centaurs getting such a boost.

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:

Yeah now that mauls are AP, they can probably drop a point or two in damage. But I wouldn't go further than that. They are two handed after all, so if the maulers ever come under missle fire, they are pretty much done for.

I agree, it *is* really nice to have the maul be useful!! It went from being a joke weapon to filling a really useful niche. Was there never any AP infantry melee weapon prior to this?? I'm thinking back now and I cant recall one... well, lances I guess? But thats not really infantry per se. On the topic tho, does anyone feel that mauls might be moving in on the territory of heavy cav? 13-14 dam ap attacks every round instead of once per battle?



No other mundane melee weapons are AP, and AP is pretty rare even for magical weapons. Lances are not AP, despite the description. Unfortunately, Action Points and Armor Piercing have the same abbreviation... lances get a damage bonus based on the unit's speed, and kill things easily because they do massive damage, not because they pierce armor.

That's a very good point, though - I certainly would not want to render an entire unit category obsolete to make a single weapon useful. One *possible* solution is to give mauls a negative attack modifier, and lances a positive attack modifier. When you think about it, it would be WAY easier to hit a moving target with a sword than with a maul, yet they have the same (0) attack modifier. OTOH, a knight charging into a battle is probably going to hit SOMETHING with his lance before his momentum dies. If lances can hit and damage most things, while mauls tend to miss agile units and are best used on heavy / slow things like Living Statues and super-heavy infantry, then both would still have a niche. Not to mention that lances - being a cavalry weapon - are still ideal for many things that mauls can't do, like racing across the field to kill pretenders while they are still buffing.

Anyway, my preliminary thought is to change mauls from (5ap, 0, -1, 0) to (3ap, -1, -1, 3), and I still think they will be highly useful. Considering how seldom Cavalry is deployed (though that may change with the pricing in the mod), lances might be due for an upgrade, like ignoring shields. Part of the point of lances (war lances, not joust lances) is that they can go right through wooden shields and kill an armored unit. They should damage / stun / dehorse / knock down someone even if it is blocked by a metal shield, though I'm not sure that shields with thick enough metal to stop a lance were ever commonly deployed. Either way, it makes sense to me for lances to ignore defense. As a little footsoldier watching a giant, armored, lance-wielding, mounted knight bearing down on me, I wouldn't lift up my leather-bound wooden shield - designed to block swords and rocks - and assume I'll somehow live, if only I keep the shield between me and the lance.

So, I think giving #flail (shield ignoring) to lances - heavy lances, at least - would be a good change. I don't think light lances should get that, though I'm not really sure what they are. If they're just spears aided by charge momentum, I doubt they could pierce shields AND still do damage, since true lances have a very long, sharp, steel head specifically designed for very deep piercing attacks. In fact, it makes sense for heavy lances to get both #flail and #armorpiercing, but that might make them too powerful.

[Ighalli]

Yeah, my armies arnt 100% longbowmen... Maybe I'm expanding too slow, but at least I'm taking no casualties from indies, so it's a tradeoff. I don't play Man all that often, so I'm just experimenting really.

[Saber Cherry]

100% longbow armies leave you vulnerable to cavalry and archers - not to mention that they're quite expensive. It's true that with ap, they're much better than base Doms II pure-longbow armies. But the rest of Man's lineup is also better, with possible exception of the Wardens, who were already good... and building purely longbows and mages, you'll have lots of resources left over every turn, which you'll probably wish you had used later on when capitol resources are limiting...

I'm not an expert playing Man, but I only build pure armies when playing Ulm, and Abysia. Speaking of which, I wonder if Abysia's units are too homogeneous? Does anyone else build armies purely of a single unit type when playing Abysia?

[Huzurdaddi]

Saber Cherry said:
No other mundane melee weapons are AP, and AP is pretty rare even for magical weapons. Lances are not AP, despite the description. Unfortunately, Action Points and Armor Piercing have the same abbreviation... lances get a damage bonus based on the unit's speed, and kill things easily because they do massive damage, not because they pierce armor.




NO [censored]! I've never understood why Ghost riders do tons of damage on their charge. If figured that sure it's AP but still it should not do the kind of crazy damage that it seems to do. This makes total sense. Longdead horsemen have tons of AP so the damage they do must be huge. Now it makes sense. Thanks! I don't know if it changes anything wrt. my tactics but now I understand what is going on.


Ighalli said:
Yeah, my armies arnt 100% longbowmen... Maybe I'm expanding too slow, but at least I'm taking no casualties from indies, so it's a tradeoff. I don't play Man all that often, so I'm just experimenting really.



Well I don't know if I would make my armies 100% longbow men. During my tests I had a little chaff in front and in time converted the chaff to vine ogres. But generally my armies were composed of primarly archers. To pay for this I went after farms which was easy to do as the longbowmen could take HC and/or Knights with ease.


quantum_mechani said:
I could write an AAR for this game, though I played Pan quite a bit different with white centaurs getting such a boost.




Whoa. Light lance. More attack. Lower cost. Sounds *very* good. What bless did you go with? Given the new data ( at least to me ) on how lances work I would figure that a W9 blessing would crush. A F9 would work well also since the unit has hooves.

[Graeme Dice]

Saber Cherry said:
Does anyone else build armies purely of a single unit type when playing Abysia?



Lava warriors and morningstar infantry are pretty much all I build.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
Longdead horsemen have tons of AP so the damage they do must be huge.



Longdead horseman have a spear and a 10 damage hoof. So they have two attacks, one with 13 damage and one with 10 damage. Knights of the Unholy Sepulchre are the only undead with lances.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
As for Pangaea I've never played them and I don't understand them at *all*. It would be really cool if someone made an AAR of this game with saved turn files and explain how the heck to do well with Pan.



Pangaea's early game strategy is actually fairly straightforward. For Illwinter's scales, you might take something like:
Order 3, sloth 3, misfortune 2, magic 3. Pick a monster for a pretender in very hard research games, or a giant humanoid in standard research games. Recruit dryad's for researchers and centaur warriors for troops. Only recruit Panii when you need them to cast specific spells. Gold is your major limiting factor. Centaur warriors give Pangaea a huge amount of early game punch, and remain effective for a very long time. They are even capable of taking down full-fledged SCs. (An air queen with wraith sword, jade armour, and luck pendant.) Against normal troops, 20 centaur warrior's will kill kill 20 Hoplites with fewer than 5 losses.

Research alteration up to mother oak, then cast it right away. Then research conjuration to Lamia's. You now have you standard troops for most of the rest of the game ready. Pile these against SCs, and the lifedrain fatigue can take them down. Research construction for blood stones and other items. Trade for a starshine skullcap so you can boost your astral magic. Make sure to research up to charm, which gives you what is probably your most effective anti-SC weapon. Watch out for wrathful skies, as it will hurt you badly. If you can catch air mages without storms, use harpies.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
Whoa. Light lance. More attack. Lower cost. Sounds *very* good. What bless did you go with? Given the new data ( at least to me ) on how lances work I would figure that a W9 blessing would crush. A F9 would work well also since the unit has hooves.



Ooops, I think I boosted White Centaurs way too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I was trying to keep them equivalent to Black Centaurs, which I was pricing to be affordable even though CW has almost no money, but that was a bad idea... W9 would bring them up to 21 defense, 22 hp, 12 protection, 13 strength, 12 attack, 16 mor, 14 mr, with 3 attacks per turn (average)... and stealthy, healing, 3 strat moves, forestry, all for 60 gold and 2g/turn. Quite a powerhouse... they'd probably kill most SC pretenders easily.

[Huzurdaddi]

Graeme Dice said:

Huzurdaddi said:
Longdead horsemen have tons of AP so the damage they do must be huge.



Longdead horseman have a spear and a 10 damage hoof. So they have two attacks, one with 13 damage and one with 10 damage. Knights of the Unholy Sepulchre are the only undead with lances.



Just took a look at a replay and the undead horsemen summoned via Ghost Riders have the following weapons: light lance, hoof. This is a replay using Zen's mod so I don't know if this is different from the base game but I doubt it.

Like I said this finally explains, at least to me, why ghost riders crush so much. With 25 AP I wonder what kind of damage that charge does ( 25+3? If so, wow, ouch. ).

[Huzurdaddi]

Saber Cherry said:

Huzurdaddi said:
Whoa. Light lance. More attack. Lower cost. Sounds *very* good. What bless did you go with? Given the new data ( at least to me ) on how lances work I would figure that a W9 blessing would crush. A F9 would work well also since the unit has hooves.



Ooops, I think I boosted White Centaurs way too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I was trying to keep them equivalent to Black Centaurs, which I was pricing to be affordable even though CW has almost no money, but that was a bad idea... W9 would bring them up to 21 defense, 22 hp, 12 protection, 13 strength, 12 attack, 16 mor, 14 mr, with 3 attacks per turn (average)... and stealthy, healing, 3 strat moves, forestry, all for 60 gold and 2g/turn. Quite a powerhouse... they'd probably kill most SC pretenders easily.



Oh I whipped up a test game to see how the W9 bless would work. Not bad. They are not unkillable but they do a decent job against Indep-9 HC. And they seem to have a pretty decent charge ( I tried about 5 test cases and on average lost 2 units against HC indep-9 provinces ).

Sadly the beserk does not work well with the W9 bless ( as your defence goes down after getting hit ). I guess I should try out the F9 bless to see how that works ( it usually works dandy on units with a hoof attack ).

A F9W9 bless would be fun to try out ( but they are darn expensive ).

[quantum_mechani]

Huzurdaddi said:

Saber Cherry said:

Huzurdaddi said:
Whoa. Light lance. More attack. Lower cost. Sounds *very* good. What bless did you go with? Given the new data ( at least to me ) on how lances work I would figure that a W9 blessing would crush. A F9 would work well also since the unit has hooves.



Ooops, I think I boosted White Centaurs way too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I was trying to keep them equivalent to Black Centaurs, which I was pricing to be affordable even though CW has almost no money, but that was a bad idea... W9 would bring them up to 21 defense, 22 hp, 12 protection, 13 strength, 12 attack, 16 mor, 14 mr, with 3 attacks per turn (average)... and stealthy, healing, 3 strat moves, forestry, all for 60 gold and 2g/turn. Quite a powerhouse... they'd probably kill most SC pretenders easily.



Oh I whipped up a test game to see how the W9 bless would work. Not bad. They are not unkillable but they do a decent job against Indep-9 HC. And they seem to have a pretty decent charge ( I tried about 5 test cases and on average lost 2 units against HC indep-9 provinces ).

Sadly the beserk does not work well with the W9 bless ( as your defence goes down after getting hit ). I guess I should try out the F9 bless to see how that works ( it usually works dandy on units with a hoof attack ).

A F9W9 bless would be fun to try out ( but they are darn expensive ).

Yes, I'm using f9 bless, I could have gone w9 as well, but I've played basically every nation with sacred troops using that bless. They may be a little over powered, but given that they are capital only, and only around the power of vans, I'm not sure they are that bad.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:

Saber Cherry said:
Does anyone else build armies purely of a single unit type when playing Abysia?



Lava warriors and morningstar infantry are pretty much all I build.



I only build Morningstar Infantry. Do you have any ideas on how to make the lineup interesting? And do you find the improved, cheaper salamanders or cheaper humanbreds tempting?

[Arralen]

What about Marignon / Patrick ???

He's the last one to do his turn the 4th or 5th time in a row, if he did his turns at all ...

[Ironhawk]

Yeah I noticed this as well. I just recieved a PM from patrick that he feels he is unable to keep up with the 24hr quickhost and wanted to be set to AI. I countered that since his nation isnt being actively crushed, we should find a replacement.

As far as replacing him: Why not use one of the players who is already on the way out of our current game? Machaka just lost what looks like a final battle and from what I am told Mictlan is besieged by a powerful force. Would either of you like to replace Marignon?

edit: And by the way from what my spies show, Marignon is far from a lost cause. Due to bad capital location picking by the computer, Mari still has some room to expand if they move quickly.

[The_Tauren13]

WTF? For the love of god, this game is just trying to [censored] piss me off. I just had 2 very expensive mages set to retreat who 'died when retreating into enemy territory' when they clearly had a province to which to retreat. [censored] this.
After I fight Man's army, I think I will take over Marignon. It was actually my nation of choice, but he got to it before me.

Edit: Actually, on second thought, I dont want to take over Marignon.

[Ironhawk]

Tauren, did you lose any provinces adjacent to the province where the mages fled from in the same turn? As far as I know, no one has ever figured out when fleeing actually occurs. If it happens immediately after every battle then situations like this can occur. If it happens at the end of the combat phase tho, this would be a bug.

[The_Tauren13]

The only thing out of the ordinary that happened was I killed a scout in my only adjacent province. Maybe they retreated, like, during the battle with the scout, but thought the scout owned it, or something weird like that.

[Graeme Dice]

Were they amphibians who had to go from water to land or vice versa?

[The_Tauren13]

Nope.
However, the army that forced them into retreat was mercenaries who were on the last turn of their contract. Maybe that had something to do with it.

[Ironhawk]

So tauren. You are sure you will not take over for Marignon? Thier position is not bad. As far as I know they still have expansion room and are probably flooded in money due to staling.

[The_Tauren13]

I *might* if I lose to Man when it hosts in 15 minutes...

[The_Tauren13]

Unsurprisingly, I won. So Ill just keep on trudging.

[Ironhawk]

Ok. Control of Marignon has been turned over to Tomahawk the ex-Machaka player.

[Saber Cherry]

Who killed Machaka?

[quantum_mechani]

Saber Cherry said:
Who killed Machaka?

Abysia.

[The_Tauren13]

And another smashing victory for the valiant armies of Mictlan, as they continue to fight against all odds...

[Ironhawk]

To think that just a while ago you thought Mictlan was getting crushed out of the game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[The_Tauren13]

Well, now Im dead, due to some abysmal scripting on my part. Those white centaurs are hardcore.

[Ironhawk]

I'm loving how fast the turns are going, now that we cut anchor on Marignon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[msew]

yeah it feels like we are actually playing a game now instead of watching paint dry

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
I'm loving how fast the turns are going, now that we cut anchor on Marignon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



They'd be even faster (from me, anyway) if there was some way to conduct instantaneous negotiations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

If you start a new Rebalance Mod Game just mail me to dzbabi[att]web[dot]de

I am in, no matter which nation(no underwater)

^^

[Saber Cherry]

GriffinOfBuerrig said:
If you start a new Rebalance Mod Game just mail me to dzbabi[att]web[dot]de

I am in, no matter which nation(no underwater)

^^



Feel free to start one yourself if you can find enough people - I know of at least one other person who was unable to make it into this game. Personally, I don't have enough time to join another one until this one ends (probably not too long now, already 2 people are dead), at which point version 8.0 will be made based on the data gathered. But, I'll start a new one at that point, and send you an invite. I'm glad to see there's interest in a second game!

[Ironhawk]

Sorry bout the slow turns lately, everyone. My mother is in town visiting so I cant do them as promptly as normal.

[Arralen]

Quantum told me to ask for quickhost turned off
- seems he has some troubles accessing 'net, let alone the shrapnel forum of the DOM server ..

[Ironhawk]

Ok. The timer has been turned off. He is last out so the turn wont generate without him...

[Saber Cherry]

Did you turn off the server, or change your IP / port? I can no longer connect.

[quantum_mechani]

Everything seems to be more or less working now, (I still can't connect to this particular game, but I gather others can't either). I will take my turn as soon as the game is back up. Thanks for pausing the game for me.

[Ironhawk]

The game actually never went down. Sheap just informed me that his IP has changed and the new IP has not propagated to all the DNS servers yet. So that is why connections were failing. Might take a day or two, so until that time, use the IP itself:

67.174.111.197

[Ironhawk]

The benatar.snurgle.org domain name seems to have propogated now so you can switch back to using that.

Quantum, have your network issues been resolved? If so I will put the server back on 24hr qh.

[quantum_mechani]

Go ahead and put it back on quickhost. I seem to be able to connect to this server ok now.

[Ironhawk]

The game is back on 24hr quickhost. Abysia and Jotunhiem are still out.

[Saber Cherry]

Be right in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saber Cherry]

New turn is up.

[Ironhawk]

So. As the game is progressing I am finding myself drawn away from regular non-summoned troops. I'm sure more summoning death and nature type empires are already far ahead of me in this respect. But since this is a *Recruitable* Rebalance Game, it gave me pause when I started laying out plans for summoning factories and such. Does anyone - particularly SC, since this is not exactly the intent of the game - care?

[Arralen]

Actually, I found that I do buy only one troop which I haven't bought in greater numbers before: TC light cav. for patrolling and "hold[+fire] and attack (rearmost)".

Cost changes on other troops didn't matter up to now, as I still do not recruit them. (besides Longbows ..)

Correction: severaly "free militia" events would have made me bankrupt some turns ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[quantum_mechani]

I have found two national troop types that I normally avoid, useful:

*Harpy troops (once in a while I used to use them for patrolling , but normally I just used black hawks)

*White Centaurs

I ended up using about the same amount of satyr hoplites. Other than these, I didn't really buy any national troops. I probably would have used centaur warriors if I hadn't had a bless, but I think that the normal satyr troops and centaur longbows don't have a real niche. If I want a normal army I use hoplites (with independent archer support), if I want a tough stealth squad I use white or warrior centaurs, and if I want light raiders I use harpies.

[Ironhawk]

This is my first time playing Ulm, but I only recruit the heavy versions of the morningstar and pikemen inf. And of course the Black Knights. I can't diversify my infantry due to the speed differences. And honestly... with the exception of the pike infantry, I cant see any reason to buy the "light" units over thier "heavy" counterparts.

You know... it might be good at the end of this game for all the players to just do a little write up on thier experiences with that empire. Talk about which troops they used, against what, and why. Could either post here or send to SC?

[Saber Cherry]

Posting here would be ideal, both before and after the game finishes.

Arralen:

Cost changes on other troops didn't matter up to now, as I still do not recruit them. (besides Longbows ..)

Correction: severaly "free militia" events would have made me bankrupt some turns ago



I've been recruiting (3 gold) militia like crazy. 10 of them cost as much as 1 jotun, but have three times as many hitpoints. They're great against things that scare me, like lances and Lava Warriors. I wouldn't mind a few free militia events http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ironhawk]

Too get back to my original question tho: Is setting up summon factories against the spirit of a "recruitable rebalance" game? Should I focusing completely on combat with non-summoned units?

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
Too get back to my original question tho: Is setting up summon factories against the spirit of a "recruitable rebalance" game? Should I focusing completely on combat with non-summoned units?



Absolutely not. The reduced magic in the game is just to make it play differently from normal, to avoid a situation where halfway through the game, recruitable combat units become totally irrelevant, and to have fun using low-level summons that are normally ignored to save gems for later summons.

If some low-level summons are still totally undesirable in this game, or suddenely become undesirable due to changes is recruitable units, that's important data... and if recruitable units are totally outclassed by even low-level summons, that's also important data.

In other words, the rules are built into the mods being used, so try to exploit them in every way possible! If you pull your punches, it skews the results.

[Ironhawk]

Has anyone heard from quantum? I havent seen him on irc and it looks like he is set to stale for a second time here... Should we delay the game at all?

[Saber Cherry]

I suggest you put a hold on the game. He appears to have no internet access, as he should at least be sending me his turns for SOC2 by email, which he is not doing either. Hopefully we can get a response from him soon. Otherwise, we may have to find a new player or set Pangaea as AI...

So, I vote for tunring off Autohost until we know if he's still able to play.

[quantum_mechani]

At the moment, I am not able to play the turns. It seems that my ISP has disabled access to most ports because they detected port scanning activity (apparently because of a virus). This means I cannot connect to any dominions or IRC servers. I have
used every virus hunting software I can find, and restored the hard drive, but they still say that they detect port scanning.

In the meantime the only way I have of playing any turns is the awkward someone-else-sends-me-the-turns method.

[Arralen]

Glad to hear that my remote diagnosis was correct http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

They and you have no idea where these port scanning comes from ?

I have: Didn't you use multiple instances of god's eye and dominions to connect to the dominions server? This would result in mutliple inactive connections from your IP to another IP. Normally, they would appear from one port on your side to multiple ports on the other (attacked) side, and not the other way round (as it obviously was), but maybe they didn't notice ... .

If they believe that after re-installing from a manufacturers disk, and installing AV software and firewall from another disk which was tested with at least 2 up-to-date scanners, your system still may be compromised, they're a bunch of morons. Being that, they might haven't noticed the untypical connection characteristics.

Get yourself another ISP ASAP, if feasable at all...

Btw. you didn't answer my email - do you have trouble with email as well ?

[quantum_mechani]

Arralen said:
Glad to hear that my remote diagnosis was correct http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

They and you have no idea where these port scanning comes from ?

I have: Didn't you use multiple instances of god's eye and dominions to connect to the dominions server? This would result in mutliple inactive connections from your IP to another IP. Normally, they would appear from one port on your side to multiple ports on the other (attacked) side, and not the other way round (as it obviously was), but maybe they didn't notice ... .

If they believe that after re-installing from a manufacturers disk, and installing AV software and firewall from another disk which was tested with at least 2 up-to-date scanners, your system still may be compromised, they're a bunch of morons. Being that, they might haven't noticed the untypical connection characteristics.

Get yourself another ISP ASAP, if feasable at all...

Btw. you didn't answer my email - do you have trouble with email as well ?

I actually had the same thought, that God's Eye had something to do with it. However I got them to rescan my computer with whatever determined that I was port scanning in the first place (they are not very forthcoming about what exactly the scan is), and supposedly they still detect something even though I was not running dominions, god's eye or anything but browsers.

The only way I could guess that a virus might actually be there, is if it carried over my LAN to a work station and back to the server after it was restored.

[Ironhawk]

So you can access the internet, but can't do anything with games. No port use outside of port 80, then? I can send you your game files for this game - i might even be able to automate it in some fashion. But you did not answer Arralen's important question: are you still recieving email? Cause you have not responded to my email either.

In the meantime, the quickhost has been turned off.

Edit: Oh! Yeah Q, you should look into getting a port-scan detector utility. Pretty sure there are some on the web. Or call and ask your ISP what they are using so you can test yourself. Should be possible if you have more than one machine on your LAN?

[quantum_mechani]

Yes, I can still use E-mail (if you tried E-mailing me and it didn't come through you may have my old address, I will PM you my new one).

As I said they were not very forthcoming about what kind of scanner they are useing, but I will look into finding one on the web.

EDIT: I just checked, I did get Arralen's E-mail, I must have just overlooked it (time to clean the inbox).

[Ironhawk]

I have worked out the process with Q now and will continue to transfer turns for him until he can get his ISP situation worked out. The game is now back on 24hr QH.

Technically speaking there is only 5 hours left till the next turn should have generated (if we had not been interrupted). But I didnt want to force the host on that timeframe in case someone didnt check the game thread and though the timer was still off....

[Ighalli]

I just staled a turn and I think I missed some messages. Please, if you sent me something PM it to me. I wish dominions would save your messages from a stale turn... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Ironhawk]

So, speaking of stale turns... it looks like Ighalli is about to stale again. Unless anyone objects I think we should give him a few hours leeway.

[Ighalli]

I just went, but I have the feeling I'm still missing what the heck happened on that other turn. SC got back to me, but there are a couple other players I need to hear from before I can do another turn.

Edit: Thanks for giving me a little extra time by the way! SOrry for slowing down the game, everyone!

[Ironhawk]

Hey all, I am about to leave work and it looks like SC is about to stale. Not connected and only 45 minutes left. It seems to me that this is a pretty critical turn in the Ulm-Jotunhiem war so I was going to stop the timer. Give saber just an extra hour or two at least? If this is a problem please let me know and I can just force it and put us back on 24hr quickhost.

[quantum_mechani]

Holding the game for little while is fine with me.

[Ironhawk]

Good thing I did http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif SC made it in.

And for the record: Ulm does, in fact, eat babies. It is a sad truth that the ulmish generals have sought to cover up for many years. We are not proud of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[quantum_mechani]

The nation of Pangaea is more than a little upset by Jotunhiem's interference in the reclaiming of our ancestral lands. We suggest that they provide some form of reparations for the murders of the wizards Falco and Idro, unless they wish to make yet another enemy.

[Saber Cherry]

Sorry for delaying the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Quantum, I apologize for our accidental battles! My intent was to attack Vanheim (which I did) for their foul treachery, but my armies were not far enough into their lands. It was, in fact, you who attacked me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But regardless, I will avoid attacking Vanheim in lands they stole from you.

And since I have excess gems at the moment, I will send you some... though I really think we are each too busy to fight each other.

[quantum_mechani]

Sorry, I was just a little unhappy about the death of my elite quick-response air wizards. Thanks for the gems.

[Ironhawk]

So, I was just chatting with the ex-Marignon player. And he mentioned to me that he "logged in and played his turn". When I asked him how this was possible given that his nation no longer existed, he was as confused as me but said he had researchers (??) and some commanders and items (???). He had to log off before I could ask him further but as what he was talking about is technically impossible I just wanted everyone to log in and check thier turns. Make sure that all your orders are intact.

[quantum_mechani]

Ironhawk said:
So, I was just chatting with the ex-Marignon player. And he mentioned to me that he "logged in and played his turn". When I asked him how this was possible given that his nation no longer existed, he was as confused as me but said he had researchers (??) and some commanders and items (???). He had to log off before I could ask him further but as what he was talking about is technically impossible I just wanted everyone to log in and check thier turns. Make sure that all your orders are intact.

My turn seems to be intact.

[Saber Cherry]

Strange... Maybe someone did not password-protect their god?

[Ironhawk]

I'm running a little late at work. I hope no one will mind if I request a few hours extension?

[Ironhawk]

Just as an FYI: Tien Chi (Arralen) has not turned in Rebalance since April 30th. Has anyone seen him?

[Ironhawk]

Tien Chi just staled for ... what the fourth turn now? I have not seen Arralen in IRC for the better part of a week. I propose that we replace him until he returns at which time he can talk with the replacer and see about getting control back.

Speaking of, I had already mentioned the situation to Tomahawk, ever the standby player for this game it seems, and he was amendable to taking over. Ran it by Quantum and he concurred. Unless anyone objects I will give Tomahawk control of Tien Chi

[Saber Cherry]

That's fine with me. I hope Arralen shows up, though...

[Ironhawk]

Yeah me too. Its so odd of him to just walk away without telling anyone. :/

In other news: I wanted to report several wierdnesses that I saw last turn. First I was talking to Ighalli and confirmed that both Man and Ulm experienced order-wierdness. We had large armies that were about to engage (perhaps 40 commanders in total with all thier troops) and they just... didnt. Orders for both armies appear to have been completely ignored.

Additionally, how did your Bane get away from me, SC? The only way it could do it was to move before the magic phase. Which is of course impossible given that banes have no magic. And yet somehow it moved to the Abysian capital before I could get it?

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
Yeah me too. Its so odd of him to just walk away without telling anyone. :/

In other news: I wanted to report several wierdnesses that I saw last turn. First I was talking to Ighalli and confirmed that both Man and Ulm experienced order-wierdness. We had large armies that were about to engage (perhaps 40 commanders in total with all thier troops) and they just... didnt. Orders for both armies appear to have been completely ignored.

Additionally, how did your Bane get away from me, SC? The only way it could do it was to move before the magic phase. Which is of course impossible given that banes have no magic. And yet somehow it moved to the Abysian capital before I could get it?



Order strangeness - could it be the castle-move bug?

As for my bane, you DID get him. He retreated into Abysia after all my troops were killed.

[Ironhawk]

What is the castle-move bug? I've never heard of it but it sounds applicable. Man is seiging one of my forts and I was attempting to move onto him to stop him.

About the bane: I dunno if your battle was different than mine, but I checked several times and the bane was not present in the first battle? The same goes for the woodsmen who were with him at abysia. I cant see how I could blank that badly and not see the unit I was concerned about fighting? On top of the fact that your bane participated in combat at abysia when there were no other commanders present in that battle? Shouldnt he have "died while retreating into enemy territory"?

[Arralen]

Hi folks, I'm still here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

'Was just that my mother got a (minor) knee surgery, which wasn't that surprising, but everything came a bit earlier and faster than expected. Then I had to do a not-so-little bit of overtime at work (gets ususal), and then there crept up some other issues ... so I simply didn't have the time to post anything sensible.

Btw, I think I got my turn "nulled" by the server at least one time .. receiving "stale turn" while I had done the orders.

Speaking of bugs - had some strange effects this turn, too:

2 scouts where killed - but not in the provinces they where in for several turns, but in the neighbouring, as if movement orders where issued to them (it wheren't, I'm pretty shure)

battle orders and -placement for several commanders was ignored, some squads orders and ordering, too. I'm not 100% shure in which order I issued those, but it seems to me that the "recording of instruction" stopped in between while I was doing my turn. But I connected, did the turn, and logged of whichout doing anything else in between ?

Maybe everyone should .zip his .h and .trn file up, so we can send it to Illwinter for further investigation?

[Saber Cherry]

Ironhawk said:
What is the castle-move bug? I've never heard of it but it sounds applicable. Man is seiging one of my forts and I was attempting to move onto him to stop him.

About the bane: I dunno if your battle was different than mine, but I checked several times and the bane was not present in the first battle? The same goes for the woodsmen who were with him at abysia. I cant see how I could blank that badly and not see the unit I was concerned about fighting? On top of the fact that your bane participated in combat at abysia when there were no other commanders present in that battle? Shouldn't he have "died while retreating into enemy territory"?



Castle-move bug: Sometimes, if an army in province A tries to move to the enemy castle at province C, but enemy army at province B attacks province A, then the army at A will not move.

Bane: In my replay, the bane was present in both battles. The battle at Abysia was due to a god being re-summoned, so I suppose it occurs after the normal movement phase.

One thing - is everyone still using mod version 7.1? If there are different mod versions, that could be causing problems. Unfortunately, I was not very careful with filenames, so downloading a new mod version will overwrite the old mod file... in the future, I will give each mod version a unique (and identical) modname and filename. Sorry about that.

For now, version 7.1 (official version for this game, "Recruitable Rebalance.dm") is attached to the first post of this thread, and version 7.51 ("Recruitable Rebalance 751.dm") is attached to the mod thread. Thus, neither version will overwrite the other.

[Ironhawk]

Saber Cherry said:

Castle-move bug: Sometimes, if an army in province A tries to move to the enemy castle at province C, but enemy army at province B attacks province A, then the army at A will not move.

Bane: In my replay, the bane was present in both battles. The battle at Abysia was due to a god being re-summoned, so I suppose it occurs after the normal movement phase.

One thing - is everyone still using mod version 7.1? If there are different mod versions, that could be causing problems. Unfortunately, I was not very careful with filenames, so downloading a new mod version will overwrite the old mod file... in the future, I will give each mod version a unique (and identical) modname and filename. Sorry about that.

For now, version 7.1 (official version for this game, "Recruitable Rebalance.dm") is attached to the first post of this thread, and version 7.51 ("Recruitable Rebalance 751.dm") is attached to the mod thread. Thus, neither version will overwrite the other.



I... oh, you know I think this bug IS what happened, SC. Man was (probably) trying to move to your old capital and I was attacking that force from a different province. But not only did Man's army not move, but my attacking army didnt move either. Terribly annoying.

I will take your word for it about the bane. Really didnt recall seeing him (or the woodsmen) in the battle or see them rout for that matter. But I can definitely envision some strange behavior with regards to calling a pretender back.

Oh! Thanks for the warning on mod versions. I downloaded the new version last night for a new game I'm going to play and it overwrote my original. I'll change it before my next turn.

[Saber Cherry]

I'm driving home tomorrow, and will not be able to play another turn between now and Sunday. So, I'll take a couple stales - which is probably OK, considering I am about 3 turns from annihilation and don't have anything to order around anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But hopefully I'll survive until Sunday!

[Ironhawk]

You sure you dont want us to hold the game SC?

[Saber Cherry]

I'm back!

And I'm still alive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And I recieved zero pm's saying "Here, take this secret reserve of one million gold pieces," so the situation looks grim. But I still have a few points of Dominion!

[Ironhawk]

Does anyone have any issues with setting Graeme to AI? He has staled continuously since May 3rd and he has only his capital left at this point. I only ask cause it is looking like the Abysia turn staling will just stall us all till 11pm again as me and Pan are planning on doing our turns immediately after work.

[Saber Cherry]

Fine with me.

[Saber Cherry]

Looks like I'm out for good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sorry for missing last turn; the lack of "eagerly anticipating" my turn, and a very busy day made me totally forget about it. Anyway, I'll write up a post-game analysis for Jotunheim sometime soon, and I'll be tracking this thread in case any interesting stuff (particularly with regards to unit balance) is uncovered. Good luck, everyone!

[Graeme Dice]

Sorry I missed all those turns, but my cable modem died and I wasn't able to get a replacement till today. Just set me to AI if you want to.

[Ironhawk]

No worries Graeme. You were AI for the last turn but Abysia was defeated a few turns ago.

[Arralen]

Sorry to say, but it looks like I'll be with very limited net access in the next days.

After replacing a old 2nd-hand HDD (startup fails) with another old 2nd-hand HDD (just got it some days ago), I'm not only suffering from a very minor data loss (all maps for Railroad Tycoon gone...), but I have severe networking/router troubles.


So if there's anyone with superior Windows networking skills, please PM or email me.

In Rebalance, turn me over to AI or replacement player as you like ...

hope to see you soon (again)
Stefan

[Saber Cherry]

I'd be willing to act as a (temp or perm) replacement, or as a proxy to submit turn files that you email to me, if you are unable to connect to the server. I don't think I can help with your networking problems, though.

[Ironhawk]

After stalemating for many turns, I offered Q a draw and he accepted. This effectively ends the game as Man and TC dont really have enough power to significantly threaten either of us alone.

Good game everyone! I really enjoyed myself. Never been the front runner for so long and as a result it was a very political game for me. Quite interesting.

[Saber Cherry]

I enjoyed it too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Even though I never managed to take an enemy castle... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Thanks very much to everyone who participated, and Ironhawk for hosting! If you wish to share your thoughts on which unit(s) you found extremely (or overly) effective, and which units were very (or overly) weak, I would greatly appreciate that. Some things have already changed since v7.1 of the mod, like Longbows going back to non-AP, Mauls being slightly weakened, and White Centaurs being nerfed. But any comments on units (or unit classes) that stood out for any reason would be very useful.

Personally, I found myself fielding large numbers of Jotun Spearmen (with occasional Hirdmen, as money permitted), Vaetti Hags, Longbowmen, 3g Militia, and a few dozen Vaettir for stealth armies. My national mages (other than Vaetti Hags, of which all 4 types are extremely useful) were just bad. Terrible. I found no use for them other than casting Rain on Abysians. The only Priests I built, other than my prophet, were independants. Which, overall, paints a picture of a Jotunheim still lacking in variety. I think the mages need to be cheaper or stronger, and there has to be a good incentive to buy Huskarls who cost more than normal infantry, but have lower protection, and thus lower survivability... Even at 16 gold and +1 morale, I still did not want to buy Jotun Militia (and even high province defence fell fast to any opposition), largely due to food issues. And I still found Jotun Axes to be worse than Jotun Spears, in general.

Most interestingly... I did not seem to have a single unit capable of hurting a Vampire Queen, even one in strong hostile dominion. I found this out several times. And medium-sized armies of Jotun Spearmen, backed by Fanatacism and Devils, were unable to push back an attacking Red Dragon. Hirdmen would have worked much better, so that may have been my fault... but WOW, dragons are tough in Zen's mod!

Once I gained access to Illithids (via The Crater), I realized (IMO, of course) they were a better use of my money than anything else - mages, dirt-cheap militia, powerful Jotun units, maul barbarians, longbowmen, and so forth. And I spent ALL my money recruiting them. Incidentally, they seem starvation-resistant...

[quantum_mechani]

My notes on balance:

*White Centaurs: They are too good with the lance, they should go back to normal.

*Centaur Warriors: Didn't use them due to the awesome white centaurs. If the sacred ones were back to normal they would be fine though.

*Centaur Archers: Still too expensive, you can get 3 javelin satyr for the same price.

*Satyr Troops: All look about right.

*Harpies: Good price for them, 10 with a black harpy is a good way to make someone pay for only using 1 PD point.

*Centaur Catarphacts: I didn't use them, but they probably have a niche if the white centaur's don't have a lance.

*Minotaurs: I built a few of theses when I had a remote castle with not much resources that needed an army, and I had a lot of gold to spare.

*War Minotaurs: Probably useful in some situations.

*Pans & Pandomoniacs: I've grown attached to their normal large price... it feels like cheating when I can build so many of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

*Hierophants & Dryads: Fine, I don't think they were changed (nor do they need to be)

*Black Harpy: Fine.

*Cataphract Commander: Fine.

*Minotaur Commander: More expensive than cataphract commanders, same leadership, and worse in a fight most most of the time.

[Ironhawk]

I found base Ulm to be capable. Tho I would probably not play them in a game without the Level 4 Limit. If any of the battlefield-wide spells had been in play I would probably have been annihilated since I could not counter it with limited Ulm magic.

Here is the limited set of units I purchased as Ulm:
Ultra Heavy Morningstar inf (general purpose troops)
Black Knights
Ultra Heavy Pikemen (for repel vs Jots or later Pan centaurs)
Ultra Heavy Flail, which i actually never got a chance to use, but they seemed like great units to attack a fort gate.

I basically never mixed light and heavy units, building only heavy pretty much uniformly. Occassionally I built some light pikemen to beef up production since I only cared about thier repel anyway.

Never bought a battleaxe, probably wouldnt ever if mauls were still AP. Tho I never bought any mauls either, for that matter.

Never bought any arbalestiers. The super slow rate of fire of the arbalest just cripples that unit. Maybe bump it up to 1/2 rounds with less precision and more damage or something? Can't see anyone ever buying it. Made for a tolerable PD tho.

Never bought any guardians, either commanders or troops. They were decent troops but not worth thier pricetag in terms of combat power and thier defense bonus didnt make up for it either given how easy it is to seige. I'd say bump that defense value up to.. say 5 for the troop and maybe 10 for the commander. Put thier gold cost inline with the normal troops (10-20gp) and count on their captial-only nature to keep production under control. Then you give ulm an interesting advantage in that it can make a couple of forts quite difficult to seige. Seems like a reasonable thing for ulm tho, eh?

Longbowmen were the archer of choice, but of course you've already changed that.

The 3g militia were very useful as patrollers and chaff. Never bought any of the other indy types.