Recruitable Mage Rebalance - seeking comments

[Saber Cherry]

I ripped data on the game's recruitable mages from Edi's database, and applied a blanket 20% cost increase to them, in an effort to deemphasize mages. Good idea, or misguided - I don't really know, but currently mage power per unit gold is vastly higher than that of any other unit you can purchase, and good players seem to spend the bulk of their recruiting money on mages. At least, that's my perception.

However, this blanket increase is not really perfect, since some mages were too expensive before, and some will still be too cheap. So, I'm requesting comments.

In base Dominions II:

1) Which mages are too expensive for their power?
2) Which mages are too cheap for their power?
3) Are there any mages you ALWAYS or NEVER build when you have the capability?
4) Do any nations strongly need a type of mage, a certain path, or a certain level in a path? For example, base Vanheim has no real blood hunting ability, and base TC or BF Ulm cannot use their national spells.
5) Any other suggested changes to the games mages?

Thanks for your comments. The next post is a list of mages that the mod will adjust, including their original price and (preliminary) modded price, abilities, paths, holiness, precision, and encumbrance (not spell casting encumbrance). Please use it for reference http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Edit: made some grammar corrections.

[Saber Cherry]

#modname "Cherry Recruitable Mage Rebalance"
#description "Increases costs of recruitable mages, generally by 20%. Some mages were increased by slightly more (e.g. Caelian mages and researchers) and some by less or not at all (e.g. Carrion Woods mages, indy Knight-Mages, and Alchemists). The purpose is to make mage costs closer to their value, and nothing was changed at all other than gold costs. Thanks to Edi for compiling the data in Excel - this data was ripped directly from his file."
#icon "./cherrydata/cherrymod.tga"
#version 0.9
#domversion 2.15



<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

-- Mages are listed by nation, alphebetically.
-- Independants are sorted by ID#



-- Nation: Abysia
-- Paths: F2, H3
-- Original Price: 200g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 7
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: h, rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 85
#name "Anathemant Salamander"
#gcost 240
#end


-- Nation: Abysia
-- Paths: F3, H4
-- Original Price: 360g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: h, rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 86
#name "Anathemant Dragon"
#gcost 430
#end


-- Nation: Abysia
-- Paths: S2, B3, ?
-- Original Price: 270g
-- Prec: 7
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: h, rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 89
#name "Warlock"
#gcost 325
#end


-- Nation: Abysia
-- Paths: S, B2
-- Original Price: 150g
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 8
-- Abilities: h, rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 923
#name "Warlock Apprentice"
#gcost 170
#end


-- Nation: Abysia BoH
-- Paths: F, H2
-- Original Price: 90g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 991
#name "Newt"
#gcost 90
#end


-- Nation: Abysia BoH
-- Paths: B, H2
-- Original Price: 100g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 1091
#name "Sanguine Acolyte"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: Abysia BoH
-- Paths: F, B2, H3
-- Original Price: 220g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 7
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: h, rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 1092
#name "Sanguine Anathemant"
#gcost 260
#end


-- Nation: Abysia std
-- Paths: F2, B2, H3
-- Original Price: 260g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 7
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: fly, h, rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 87
#name "Demonbred"
#gcost 310
#end


-- Nation: Arcoscephale
-- Paths: N, H3
-- Original Price: 110g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: heal
#selectmonster 242
#name "Priestess"
#gcost 135
#end


-- Nation: Arcoscephale
-- Paths: S2, ###
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 311
#name "Mystic"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: Arcoscephale std
-- Paths: S3, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 301
#name "Astrologer"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis
-- Paths: W
-- Original Price: 60g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: amph
#selectmonster 102
#name "Initiate of the Deep"
#gcost 70
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis
-- Paths: W2, S3
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: amph
#selectmonster 104
#name "Deep Seer"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis
-- Paths: W3, 2?
-- Original Price: 290g
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: amph
#selectmonster 322
#name "King of the Deep"
#gcost 350
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis (Oceania)
-- Paths: W2, N3, ?
-- Original Price: 350g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: amph, fly, rec
#selectmonster 1038
#name "Capricorn"
#gcost 420
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis (Oceania)
-- Paths: W, N2, ?
-- Original Price: 350g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: amphP, rec
#selectmonster 1039
#name "Capricorn"
#gcost 420
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis (Oceania)
-- Paths: W2
-- Original Price: 160g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: amph, awe(+2), fly, rec, st(0)
#selectmonster 1054
#name "Siren"
#gcost 190
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis (Oceania)
-- Paths: A, W
-- Original Price: 160g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: amphP, awe(+2), fly, rec, st(0)
#selectmonster 1055
#name "Siren"
#gcost 190
#end


-- Nation: Atlantis (Oceania)
-- Paths: W3
-- Original Price: 200g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: aq, fly
#selectmonster 1088
#name "Triton King"
#gcost 240
#end


-- Nation: Caelum RotR
-- Paths: ED
-- Original Price: 90g
-- Prec: 13
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: fly, f(-4)
#selectmonster 951
#name "Harab Seraph"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: Caelum RotR
-- Paths: A3, E, D2, H2
-- Original Price: 270g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: fly, f(-3)
#selectmonster 1003
#name "Harab Elder"
#gcost 325
#end


-- Nation: Caelum RotR
-- Paths: A2, W
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: fly, rC(100)
#selectmonster 1004
#name "Seraph"
#gcost 170
#end


-- Nation: Caelum std
-- Paths: A2, W
-- Original Price: 100g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: fly, rC(100)
#selectmonster 202
#name "Seraph"
#gcost 125
#end


-- Nation: Caelum std
-- Paths: A3, W2, ?
-- Original Price: 175g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: fly, rC(100)
#selectmonster 203
#name "High Seraph"
#gcost 225
#end


-- Nation: C'tis
-- Paths: D, N
-- Original Price: 110g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: cb, f(-4), rP(100), st(+5) surv(s)
#selectmonster 502
#name "Empoisoner"
#gcost 135
#end


-- Nation: C'tis DT
-- Paths: F, D3, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: cb, f(-2), rP(50), surv(s)
#selectmonster 1036
#name "Sauromancer"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: C'tis DT
-- Paths: F, D, H2
-- Original Price: 110g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: cb, f(-4), rP(50), surv(sw)
#selectmonster 1095
#name "Keeper of the Tombs"
#gcost 135
#end


-- Nation: C'tis M
-- Paths: W, D2, N2, ?
-- Original Price: 220g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: cb, f(-3), rP(75), surv(s)
#selectmonster 937
#name "Marshmaster"
#gcost 265
#end


-- Nation: C'tis std
-- Paths: D3, N, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: cb, f(-2), rP(50), surv(s)
#selectmonster 161
#name "Sauromancer"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: C'tis std &amp; M
-- Paths: S, N
-- Original Price: 110g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: cb, rP(50), surv(s)
#selectmonster 170
#name "Shaman"
#gcost 130
#end


-- Nation: Ermor B
-- Paths: S, D, U2
-- Original Price: 130g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: f(-4)
#selectmonster 669
#name "Thaumaturg"
#gcost 140
#end


-- Nation: Ermor B
-- Paths: S2, D2, U3, ?
-- Original Price: 340g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 8
-- Abilities: f(0)
#selectmonster 670
#name "Grand Thaumaturg"
#gcost 360
#end


-- Nation: Jotunheim
-- Paths: W2, B2, ?
-- Original Price: 250g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: rC(100)
#selectmonster 553
#name "Jotun Skratti"
#gcost 280
#end


-- Nation: Jotunheim IW
-- Paths: $
-- Original Price: 55g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 913
#name "Vaetti Hag"
#gcost 65
#end


-- Nation: Jotunheim IW &amp; N
-- Paths: D, N, B, $$
-- Original Price: 250g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: f(-4), rC(100), surv(f)
#selectmonster 785
#name "Gygja"
#gcost 280
#end


-- Nation: Jotunheim N
-- Paths: W3, D2, H3
-- Original Price: 500g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: c, f(-3), rC(100), sF(50)
#selectmonster 844
#name "Niefel Jarl"
#gcost 550
#end


-- Nation: Jotunheim U
-- Paths: S, D, N
-- Original Price: 90g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: f(-4)
#selectmonster 280
#name "Seithkona"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: Jotunheim U
-- Paths: S2, D2, N
-- Original Price: 220g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: f(-3)
#selectmonster 281
#name "Norna"
#gcost 260
#end


-- Nation: Machaka
-- Paths: F, E, D
-- Original Price: 110g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: f(-4), surv(f)
#selectmonster 891
#name "Sorceress"
#gcost 125
#end


-- Nation: Machaka
-- Paths: F, D, N
-- Original Price: 80g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: f(-4), surv(f), rb(-2)
#selectmonster 892
#name "Witch Doctor"
#gcost 100
#end


-- Nation: Machaka
-- Paths: F, D, N2, ?
-- Original Price: 190g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: f(-4), surv(f)
#selectmonster 893
#name "Sorcerer"
#gcost 230
#end


-- Nation: Machaka
-- Paths: F2, E2, D, ?
-- Original Price: 250g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: f(-4), surv(f)
#selectmonster 894
#name "Black Sorcerer"
#gcost 280
#end


-- Nation: Machaka
-- Paths: F2, E2, D, ?
-- Original Price: 0g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 5
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: a, f(-4), rP(100), surv(f)
-- selectmonster 899
-- name "Hunter Spider"
-- end


-- Nation: Man
-- Paths: N
-- Original Price: 75g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: st(+30), std(+10), surv(f)
#selectmonster 658
#name "Bard"
#gcost 85
#end


-- Nation: Man LotT
-- Paths: A2, N, H3
-- Original Price: 280g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 16
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25), surv(f)
#selectmonster 848
#name "Sidhe Lord"
#gcost 325
#end


-- Nation: Man LotT
-- Paths: A, N, H2
-- Original Price: 140g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25), surv(f)
#selectmonster 850
#name "Sidhe Champion"
#gcost 170
#end


-- Nation: Man LotT
-- Paths: A3, N2, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 390g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 17
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: gl, rec, st(+25), surv(f)
#selectmonster 856
#name "Tuatha"
#gcost 460
#end


-- Nation: Man std
-- Paths: N2
-- Original Price: 80g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: surv(f)
#selectmonster 151
#name "Daughter of Avalon"
#gcost 95
#end


-- Nation: Man std
-- Paths: A, N2
-- Original Price: 130g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 152
#name "Mother of Avalon"
#gcost 155
#end


-- Nation: Man std
-- Paths: A2, N3, ?
-- Original Price: 230g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 153
#name "Crone of Avalon"
#gcost 275
#end


-- Nation: Marignon
-- Paths: F, H3
-- Original Price: 110g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: inq
#selectmonster 149
#name "Inquisitor"
#gcost 130
#end


-- Nation: Marignon
-- Paths: F, H4
-- Original Price: 210g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: inq
#selectmonster 222
#name "High Inquisitor"
#gcost 250
#end


-- Nation: Marignon CotS
-- Paths: A, S
-- Original Price: 90g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: sail
#selectmonster 1031
#name "Chartmaker"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: Marignon CotS
-- Paths: A2, S2, ?
-- Original Price: 200g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: sail
#selectmonster 1032
#name "Royal Navigator"
#gcost 240
#end


-- Nation: Marignon DF
-- Paths: F, B
-- Original Price: 80g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 744
#name "Diabolist"
#gcost 95
#end


-- Nation: Marignon DF
-- Paths: F2, B2, H2
-- Original Price: 190g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 745
#name "Goetic Master"
#gcost 230
#end


-- Nation: Marignon std
-- Paths: F3, S2, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 270g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 223
#name "Grand Master"
#gcost 325
#end


-- Nation: Marignon std
-- Paths: F2, S, H2
-- Original Price: 150g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 224
#name "Witch Hunter"
#gcost 180
#end


-- Nation: Marignon std &amp; DF
-- Paths: F
-- Original Price: 65g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 225
#name "Initiate"
#gcost 80
#end


-- Nation: Mictlan
-- Paths: B, H2
-- Original Price: 80g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 731
#name "Mictlan Priest"
#gcost 95
#end


-- Nation: Mictlan
-- Paths: N2, B2, H3
-- Original Price: 250g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: surv(f)
#selectmonster 732
#name "Priest King"
#gcost 300
#end


-- Nation: Mictlan
-- Paths: W2, B2, H3
-- Original Price: 230g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 733
#name "Rain Priest"
#gcost 275
#end


-- Nation: Mictlan
-- Paths: S2, B2, H3
-- Original Price: 230g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 734
#name "Moon Priest"
#gcost 275
#end


-- Nation: Mictlan
-- Paths: F2, B3, H4
-- Original Price: 390g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 735
#name "High Priest of the Sun"
#gcost 450
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea CW
-- Paths: D2, N3
-- Original Price: 320g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: f(-3), rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 709
#name "Panic Apostate"
#gcost 320
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea CW
-- Paths: N, H2
-- Original Price: 90g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 901
#name "Black Dryad"
#gcost 90
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea NE
-- Paths: N, H2
-- Original Price: 110g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: awe(+2), rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 705
#name "Dryad"
#gcost 130
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea NE
-- Paths: E2, N3
-- Original Price: 350g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 706
#name "Pan"
#gcost 420
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea std
-- Paths: N, H3
-- Original Price: 110g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: awe(+2), rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 237
#name "Dryad"
#gcost 130
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea std
-- Paths: E2, N3, ?
-- Original Price: 350g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 238
#name "Pan"
#gcost 400
#end


-- Nation: Pangaea std
-- Paths: N3, B2
-- Original Price: 320g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rec, st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 516
#name "Pandemoniac"
#gcost 360
#end


-- Nation: Pythium SC
-- Paths: W, N2, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 190g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: rP(100)
#selectmonster 761
#name "Serpent Priest"
#gcost 230
#end


-- Nation: Pythium SC
-- Paths: N, H2
-- Original Price: 80g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: rP(50)
#selectmonster 830
#name "Serpent Acolyte"
#gcost 95
#end


-- Nation: Pythium std
-- Paths: A2, W, S3, H4, ?
-- Original Price: 380g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 8
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 41
#name "Arch Theurg"
#gcost 465
#end


-- Nation: Pythium std
-- Paths: A, W, S2, H3
-- Original Price: 150g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 42
#name "Theurg"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Pythium std
-- Paths: S, H2
-- Original Price: 90g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 43
#name "Theurg Acolyte"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: R'lyeh
-- Paths: W, S3, ??
-- Original Price: 280g
-- Prec: 13
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: amph, mb
#selectmonster 332
#name "Starspawn"
#gcost 335
#end


-- Nation: R'lyeh
-- Paths: S, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 150g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 2
-- Abilities: amph, mb
#selectmonster 333
#name "Starspawn"
#gcost 180
#end


-- Nation: R'lyeh
-- Paths: S
-- Original Price: 85g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: amph, as, st(+5)
#selectmonster 443
#name "Star Child"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: T'ien Chi
-- Paths: W?, H2
-- Original Price: 100g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 808
#name "Master of the Way"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: T'ien Chi BK, S&amp;A
-- Paths: D, H2
-- Original Price: 75g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 806
#name "Master of the Dead"
#gcost 85
#end


-- Nation: T'ien Chi S&amp;A
-- Paths: FAEWN#, H2
-- Original Price: 190g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 940
#name "Master of the Five Elements"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: T'ien Chi S&amp;A
-- Paths: FAWS, H3, #$
-- Original Price: 250g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: fly
#selectmonster 941
#name "Celestial Master"
#gcost 260
#end


-- Nation: T'ien Chi std &amp; BK
-- Paths: F, A, W2, S, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 250g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 803
#name "Celestial Master"
#gcost 260
#end


-- Nation: Ulm BF
-- Paths: S, $
-- Original Price: 90g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 1011
#name "Fortune Teller"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: Ulm BF
-- Paths: S2, B
-- Original Price: 160g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: st(+30)
#selectmonster 1012
#name "Member of the Second Tier"
#gcost 170
#end


-- Nation: Ulm BF
-- Paths: S
-- Original Price: 80g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: std(+20)
#selectmonster 1023
#name "Illuminated One"
#gcost 70
#end


-- Nation: Ulm IF
-- Paths: E, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 140g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: frg(25), inq
#selectmonster 740
#name "Black Priest"
#gcost 140
#end


-- Nation: Ulm std
-- Paths: F, E2
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: frg(25)
#selectmonster 325
#name "Master Smith"
#gcost 150
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim
-- Paths: A, H2
-- Original Price: 160g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25), sail
#selectmonster 263
#name "Vanherse"
#gcost 175
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim
-- Paths: A2, B, H3
-- Original Price: 280g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 16
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25), sail
#selectmonster 264
#name "Vanjarl"
#gcost 310
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim H
-- Paths: A2, D3, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 400g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 16
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: f(-2), gl, st(+25), sail
#selectmonster 847
#name "Hangadrott"
#gcost 450
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim H
-- Paths: E2, D2
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: f(-3), surv(m)
#selectmonster 1010
#name "Svartalf"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim M
-- Paths: A2, ??
-- Original Price: 160g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: r(1), surv(f)
#selectmonster 846
#name "Galderman"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim M
-- Paths: S2
-- Original Price: 120g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 950
#name "Volva"
#gcost 140
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim std
-- Paths: E3, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: surv(m)
#selectmonster 323
#name "Dwarven Smith"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: Vanheim std
-- Paths: A3, B, H3, ?
-- Original Price: 380g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 17
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25), sail
#selectmonster 948
#name "Vanadrott"
#gcost 440
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: N2, H2
-- Original Price: 140g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: st(+0), surv(f)
#selectmonster 105
#name "Druid"
#gcost 165
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: D2
-- Original Price: 120g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: fly, f(-3)
#selectmonster 252
#name "Harab Seraph"
#gcost 140
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: A, S2
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 346
#name "Crystal Sorceress"
#gcost 160
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: A, S, H2
-- Original Price: 100g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 347
#name "Crystal Priestess"
#gcost 120
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: F, B2
-- Original Price: 150g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 349
#name "Garnet Sorceress"
#gcost 180
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: F, B, H2
-- Original Price: 100g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rF(100), surv(w)
#selectmonster 350
#name "Garnet Priestess"
#gcost 120
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: W, N2, ??
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rP(100), surv(f)
#selectmonster 352
#name "Jade Sorceress"
#gcost 220
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths:
-- Original Price: 100g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: rP(100), surv(f)
#selectmonster 353
#name "Jade Priestess"
#gcost 120
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: E, D2
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: f(-3), surv(m)
#selectmonster 355
#name "Onyx Sorceress"
#gcost 160
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: ED, H3
-- Original Price: 130g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: f(-4), surv(m)
#selectmonster 356
#name "Onyx Priestess"
#gcost 150
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: E3
-- Original Price: 150g
-- Prec: 8
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: r(7), sF(25), surv(m), !e, gem(+1E)
#selectmonster 519
#name "Troll King"
#gcost 150
#end


-- Nation: Indy
-- Paths: A2, H2
-- Original Price: 160g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 16
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 1002
#name "Asmeg Jarl"
#gcost 190
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: D, B
-- Original Price: 60g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: f(-4)
#selectmonster 94
#name "Conjurer"
#gcost 85
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: 2D, 2B
-- Original Price: 100g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: f(-3)
#selectmonster 95
#name "Circle Master"
#gcost 140
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: W
-- Original Price: 60g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: grants water breathing
#selectmonster 96
#name "Azure Initiate"
#gcost 70
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: W2
-- Original Price: 100g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: grants water breathing
#selectmonster 97
#name "Azure Mage"
#gcost 120
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: F
-- Original Price: 60g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 98
#name "Pyromancer"
#gcost 70
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: F3
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 99
#name "Adept of Pyriphlegeton"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: A2, S2, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: rb(4)
#selectmonster 100
#name "Adept of the Silver Order"
#gcost 235
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: F2, S2, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: rb(4)
#selectmonster 101
#name "Adept of the Golden Order"
#gcost 235
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: W3
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: amph
#selectmonster 103
#name "Hydromancer"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: S3
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: e, st(+0)
#selectmonster 106
#name "Shadow Seer"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: N, B2
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: surv(f)
#selectmonster 122
#name "Bloodhenge Druid"
#gcost 165
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: EN
-- Original Price: 100g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: surv(f)
#selectmonster 154
#name "Witch"
#gcost 120
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: #, $2
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: rb(7)
#selectmonster 302
#name "Wizard"
#gcost 180
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: W2, H2
-- Original Price: 180g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: rC(100)
#selectmonster 309
#name "Ice Druid"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: D2
-- Original Price: 120g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: f(-3)
#selectmonster 310
#name "Necromancer"
#gcost 130
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: #2, $
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 13
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: rb(7)
#selectmonster 312
#name "Wizard"
#gcost 180
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: S, N2
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 338
#name "Enchanter"
#gcost 160
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: D, B, 2$
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: f(-4)
#selectmonster 339
#name "Sorcerer"
#gcost 210
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: E2, S2
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 340
#name "Crystal Mage"
#gcost 210
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: A2
-- Original Price: 110g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25)
#selectmonster 341
#name "Illusionist"
#gcost 130
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: S2, D
-- Original Price: 140g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 342
#name "Moon Mage"
#gcost 170
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: A2, S2, $
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 14
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 343
#name "Sorceress"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: F, E, S2, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 344
#name "Sorceress"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: E2, N2
-- Original Price: 175g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 3
-- Abilities: gl, st(+25), surv(f)
#selectmonster 345
#name "Gnome"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: N2, ##
-- Original Price: 200g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 363
#name "Enchantress"
#gcost 240
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: N, ###
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 364
#name "Enchantress"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: F2
-- Original Price: 200g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 389
#name "Fire Lord"
#gcost 150
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: E2, S2, ?
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: rb(4)
#selectmonster 477
#name "Adept of the Iron Order"
#gcost 235
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: ?
-- Original Price: 80g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: rb(4)
#selectmonster 478
#name "Sage"
#gcost 105
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: ????
-- Original Price: 150g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: rb(6)
#selectmonster 479
#name "Lore Master"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: FES
-- Original Price: 90g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 6
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 480
#name "Magus"
#gcost 110
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: F2, E, S2
-- Original Price: 190g
-- Prec: 9
-- Enc: 7
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 481
#name "High Magus"
#gcost 230
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: W2, H2
-- Original Price: 170g (Sacred)
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 4
-- Abilities: amph, grants extra 5 water breathing
#selectmonster 529
#name "Sea Father"
#gcost 200
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: AES
-- Original Price: 300g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: Alchemy Bonus 50%
#selectmonster 551
#name "Alchemist"
#gcost 300
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: N2
-- Original Price: 120g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: st(+0), surv(f), summons extra vinemen
#selectmonster 552
#name "Animist"
#gcost 140
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: S2, D, ?
-- Original Price: 160g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: f(-4)
#selectmonster 630
#name "Elludian Moon Mage"
#gcost 190
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: A, S
-- Original Price: 180g
-- Prec: 11
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: sail
#selectmonster 869
#name "Navigator"
#gcost 215
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: ##
-- Original Price: 200g
-- Prec: 10
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: none
#selectmonster 875
#name "Warrior Mage"
#gcost 150
#end


-- Nation: Indy Site
-- Paths: W2, S, ?
-- Original Price: 160g
-- Prec: 12
-- Enc: 5
-- Abilities: rb(7)
#selectmonster 999
#name "Wizard of the Crescent Moon"
#gcost 190
#end


#end
</pre><hr />

[quantum_mechani]

Saber Cherry said:


1) What mages are too expensive for their power?
2) What mages are too cheap for their power?
3) Are there any mages you ALWAYS or NEVER build when you have the capability?
4) Do any nations strongly need a type of mage, a certain path, or a certain level in a path? For example, base Vanheim has no real blood hunting ability, and base TC or BF Ulm cannot use their national spells.
5) Any other suggest changes to the games mages?


As far as too expensive, I always considered abysian priest-mages(other than demonbreeds) a bit too costly. Possibly the Pandemoniac would also fall into this category. I also always thought it strange that the mother of avalon, which should be the most common witch, is very rarely built compared to crones and daughters. For too cheap, Caelum mages, maybe Vaetti hags (but they are so much fun that way), and then there are sages...

It is too bad there is no way to make all mages capital only, that would make mages feel more unique.

[PDF]

Well, I mostly agree on the idea of making mages more expensive, but I'm not sure the main problem is the cost itself, but rather has to do with :
- The paths the mage gets : a caelian Air mage, at same levels, is vastly superior to a TC Water mage or an Ulm smith;
- The fact that the mage is or not capitol-restricted - the case of Caelum vs Abysia or Mictlan is telling;
- The more or less flexibility given by the randoms and their level. For example Mystics are very good, but Celestial masters are crappy.

But I've no clue as to how correct this ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Boron]

Imho you should balance each mage per hand . The +20% Cost increase is wrong for some mages .
As former posters said the standard Abysian mages like Athamet Salamander and Athamet Dragon are for my taste even in Vanilla way to expensive , the Pan should not be made more expensive at least etc. .

On the other hand Sages , Seraphs , Arch Seraphs should be made more expensive , maybe also the Theurg .
Most other mages are imo fine as they are because they don't have that deadly abilities or are already capitol only or rather expensive .

[Edi]

Cherry, you need to redo the Oceanian mages to make sure you get them right. The data on them in the Unit DB is from November 18, and there were changes made before the Oceania mod became public. The DB is due for an update for them as well as adding the bugfixes, but I've not gotten around to doing it yet.

Edi

[Scott Hebert]

Cherry, I have a very long list (in fact, a laundry list) of changes that need to be made. If I could, I request that you focus on independent mages, since I hope to have my National Commander mod out within a week.

Anyway. Getting back to my thread...

[Edit: Cherry, I do recall (I wish I had my old files; I had done all of this already) that the Circle Master is very undercosted, and the Ice Druid and Sea Father are overcosted.]

[TheSelfishGene]

Actually its an admirable task your about to attempt; but one that i think is wrongheaded.

The problem with magic in Dominions 2 is not that its more powerful than conventional units; after all its supposed to be. The problem is that out of 500 spells, trying to make 475 of them work for you will cost you the game, while 25 of them are so powerful they can win almost irregardless of what your opponent does.

There was a contest in a previous post about an SC competition, but the winning SC apparently won because they used a Mind Control type spell since the SCs weren't marked as Pretenders. One player commented that "you just found a loophole and won the game with it", and that pretty much describes multiplayer Dom2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Find the most absurdly broken spell/summons and run with it, while everyone else is tooling around wondering if flails are better than axes. Not that you can blame them, its a complicated game and it takes time to find these broken abilities, but broken they are.

Now if you want to emphasise conventional troops you need to balance down; if you like magic, than balance up.

In other words, IMO as far as cost and everything, mages are fine. What is not fine are the summons and spells some of them can cast.

[Scott Hebert]

I disagree with your assumption that Dominions 2 is about magic and mages. In the game, Magic is a tool, just like any other. It should be balanced against all the other tools you have available.

Just because current game-balance requires a switch-over from recruited troops to summoned troops does not mean that it is always a requirement.

After my national commander analysis, I plan to try my hand at a summoned commander analysis, to see if they can be similarly re-balanced.

[Tuidjy]

TheSelfishGene said:
The problem is that out of 500 spells, trying to make 475 of them work for you will cost you the game, while 25 of them are so powerful they can win almost irregardless of what your opponent does.


Regardless of what you mean by 'irregardless', when you have 25 spells that
can each win the game, you have balance. Even someone who is hoarding,
madcastling, wrathing, ghostriding, teleporting around, mass enslaving, etc...
will have a hard time against someone doing the same.


There was a contest in a previous post about an SC competition, but the winning SC apparently won because they used a Mind Control type spell since the SCs weren't marked as Pretenders. One player commented that "you just found a loophole and won the game with it", and that pretty much describes multiplayer Dom2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


If all the SC had been pretenders, 'Soul Slay' would have achieved the exact same
effect, except Yvelina would not have had half a dozen bodyguards in the seventh
battle. If my contestant had not taken the gargoyle out with 'Petrify', Yvelina
would have had lost her first fight. In a multiplayer game, one has no excuse
for failing for a trick twice.


Find the most absurdly broken spell/summons and run with it, while everyone else is tooling around wondering if flails are better than axes. Not that you can blame them, its a complicated game and it takes time to find these broken abilities, but broken they are.


Right, and ancient warfare was obviously broken because anyone who was tooling
around wondering whether obsydian is better than flint would have had a hard
time fighting off a roman legion.

You know, I suggest one simple test. I challenge you to a simple contest.
You will claim one strategy and I will not use it in the first game. In the
second game, you will choose an additional one. The point will be to see how
long it would take you to win.

[TheSelfishGene]

So Wrathful skies is fair? I've beaten Wrathful Sky casters in a multiplayer game (an Air Queen), but it cost me my whole army of devils (which are hardly weak units themselves). Utterdark is fair? Its the big red WIN GAME button. False Horror is fair? Wow, its -10 fatigue and 1 path; dragonflies take -100 fatigue and 1 nature gem. Vine Ogres are fair? I mean they cost the same as Vine Men, how could you even defend them? (aside from being almost the only Nature thing worth a flip in Multi).

There are previous discussions about buffing 'low level' summons, and how the better players wouldn't even touch them , hording them gems for Summons X. So their conclusion was to buff the low level summons. 5 gems for a Scorpion is fine; 10 gems for a Undead, 20 armor, 42hp, Bane Blade thug is NOT fine. Its not that the previous summons is bad, its that things like the Banelord are simply too good.

Please take into context this thread's purpose: to rebalance mages. What i was saying was that 1) most mages prices are acceptable when you calculate magic paths/cost, and 2) those that seem cheap for their value are so because they are able to cast an overpowered spell/summons. And thus, leading me to conclude that it would be better to adjust the spell/summon than the caster.

You can change balance more towards summons or more towards conventional troops - common knowledge is that, basically, all conventional troops are crap, its only a matter of time when. Because everyone wants to spam temples and castles, that 'when' is pretty damn soon after the start of the game. Since Saber Cherry made a mod just before this one trying to make conventional troops more effective, and this mod is increasing caster cost, i figured a better solution is to tone down the overpowered magics and summons.

I've no love for multi Dom2 anymore, although i had fun while it lasted, so i'm not inclided to accept your contest. Although, i'm not exactly certain what it would prove in any event. I ban WISH, you spam GHOST RIDERS, or whatever. Boy, was i wrong!... or something.

[Graeme Dice]

TheSelfishGene said:
So Wrathful skies is fair?



It's definetly powerful. It can also be defended against if you plan for it.


I've beaten Wrathful Sky casters in a multiplayer game (an Air Queen), but it cost me my whole army of devils (which are hardly weak units themselves).



Did you not have any rings of tamed lightning?


Utterdark is fair? Its the big red WIN GAME button.



If someone casts Utterdark, they had better have put a huge number of death gems into it, or else it's going to only last a turn. That huge number of death gems could have been used in any number of other ways.


False Horror is fair? Wow, its -10 fatigue and 1 path;



It also is only useful as a delaying tactic to keep the air mages from being overrun by high MR, lightning immune commanders.


dragonflies take -100 fatigue and 1 nature gem.



Dragonflies are nature magic, which has useful summons, unlike air magic.


Vine Ogres are fair?



They are more than fair. They are cannon fodder that can't stand up to anything approaching serious opposition.


I mean they cost the same as Vine Men, how could you even defend them?



They require a nature 3 mage to spend an entire turn. That's not quite the same cost as vine men.


(aside from being almost the only Nature thing worth a flip in Multi).



Lamia's are certainly a better use of your gems than vine ogres. They actually have a chance to defeat fully equipped SCs, unlike vine ogres, which perform worse than barbarians.


5 gems for a Scorpion is fine; 10 gems for a Undead, 20 armor, 42hp, Bane Blade thug is NOT fine.



That it has a bane blade is immaterial because a bane blade is not really a useful weapon. A unit with 42 hp and 20 armour will only survive a single turn against 20 or so units with the ability to achieve more than 20 damage. (Barbarians and all other two-handed weapon wielders.)


Its not that the previous summons is bad, its that things like the Banelord are simply too good.



A banelord is nothing special unless you spend three times his summoning cost on equipment. At that point, he can still be killed by elite national troops if you set him up to defend against elemental magic and cover his lousy MR, or by magic if you set him up to not be defeated (easily) by elite units.


Please take into context this thread's purpose: to rebalance mages.



Mages are already almost too expensive in most cases, so they really don't need to be made even more so.


You can change balance more towards summons or more towards conventional troops - common knowledge is that, basically, all conventional troops are crap, its only a matter of time when.



It's unfortunate that "common knowledge" doesn't match up with "actual gameplay".


Because everyone wants to spam temples and castles, that 'when' is pretty damn soon after the start of the game.



If you define turn 40-60 as "pretty soon", then yes, it is pretty soon.


I ban WISH, you spam GHOST RIDERS, or whatever.



If you can't defend against ghost rider attacks, then you've probably spent most of the game turtling and avoiding confrontation, and have already lost the expansion race before turn 20. All the high-level spells do is bring the game to a conclusion before turn 150.

[tinkthank]

Cherry, I think your idea is noble, but am not sure it would be "worth it" in terms of the hours and hours you will need for testing, because "very difficult research" and a few spell mods will accomplish a similar effect. Balance mods such as this are extremely complex (doh!), since you will have to contextualize the increase of price for individual nations in comparison with the strengths and roles the mages play between the nations.

That being said: looks nice!
I would prefer fewer changes to a few mages. I particularly welcome a small price increase in the Caelan mage.
I think a thematically sensible change (which I have tested and liked) is to make the New Era Pan 2E2N1? (that is, in the New Age, the Pan's Nature skills have decreased due to their increased love of steel), but they keep a random.

Good luck!

[Scott Hebert]

Endoperez found my original work on over/undercosted mages,Cherry. I'll forward you the relevant information.

Regarding 'overcosted mages', I think the problem is more that the 'good mages' (those that people think are costed appropriately) are in fact under-costed by quite a degree, and the rest are more or less evenly priced.

If mages were not summonable, I think that would help.

We'll see.

[The_Tauren13]

Scott Hebert said:
If mages were not summonable, I think that would help.



Wouldnt that annihilate some themes like Ulm and Carrion Woods beyond all repair?

[Saber Cherry]

The_Tauren13 said:

Scott Hebert said:
If mages were not summonable, I think that would help.



Wouldnt that annihilate some themes like Ulm and Carrion Woods beyond all repair?



Yes. Alternately, living summonable mages could cost upkeep. When it makes sense, of course - nobody is going to expect a GoR'd Vastness to want (or be able to use) money, and neither will a fallen angel demand compensation upon being freed from eternal suffering.

Maybe some summonables should have disadvantages? I wouldn't want to live in a town being patrolled by Anthrax, the King of Banefires... and I would avoid the public library if he was hanging out there doing research in level-8 death evocations. Being forced to keep these guys on the move (and some of more vile blood and death summonable mages) because you don't want them polluting your territory (like with Demon Lords) might be interesting.

Also, it would be neat if some creatures like Hama Dryads, Fairy Queens, and Arch Angels attracted people to provinces, opposite to the way Harvesters of Sorrows repel / kill them, providing incentive to keep certain mages at home rather than in battle. If I, a lowly peasant, had my family killed by the Lord of Plague Wind that my God was keeping in my hometown for his own inscrutable reasons... and I heard that the province next door had a fairy queen curing blindess and disease... I'd probably move.


But that's all out of the scope of this mod. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions above. It's starting to seem that Dominions II is complex enough that you have to balance some units more by "feel" than by equations, so post your thoughts on other mages that feel too expensive, too cheap, or too useless.

And please try not to attack other people, no matter how poorly-thought-out or poorly-phrased their post might be. Discussion and disagreements are fine, but people tend to avoid posting their thoughts in threads where criticism is too sharp.

[Scott Hebert]

Well, national summonable mages shouldn't go away.

It's just that certain summonable mages, at the very least, are very undercosted, if they should be allowed at all. Spectres and Lamia Queens spring immediately to mind.

Any non-national mage that can summon itself is also immediately suspect.

[PvK]

1) What mages are too expensive for their power?

Compared to ordinary troops, once much research is done, none of them.


2) What mages are too cheap for their power?

All of 'em. Maybe particularly some of Pythium's and Caelum's, for what they can do in the unmodded game.


3) Are there any mages you ALWAYS or NEVER build when you have the capability?

Strictly speaking, no. However, I am frequently particularly tempted by the price of:

Sages (for research)
Communicants (for communion)
Caeleans (for flying air-spell casters)
Mictlan Priests (for blood hunting)

I often wince and decide to hire someone else when considering the price of: Alchemists (of course a fettish hoarder will be happy to hire them).


4) Do any nations strongly need a type of mage, a certain path, or a certain level in a path? For example, base Vanheim has no real blood hunting ability, and base TC or BF Ulm cannot use their national spells.

I kind of like the need to do something besides just hire someone to get an ability. I think it's neat that there are methods that require tricks, investment, and/or luck to develop some special abilities. Also, since there are ways to get bonuses to make these things possible, making them automatically hirable instead of one short means they can actually be expected to go one level further than that, which can have other implications. However:

* Base TC relies on randoms to get their national spells (but they have those randoms - they just need to be lucky and/or patient etc).

* BF Ulm needs to empower in blood or have a matching pretender to do sanguine heritage.

* Broken Empire Ermor can do a lot with a Grand Thaumaturg prophet - more automatic unholy access would of course be useful.

* Ulm could use an E3 mage (though they _will_ make boots).


5) Any other suggest changes to the games mages?

* IF Ulm holy-2 priest could be somehow unique.
* Base TC's NON-mage eunichs and priests are the TC units I really don't see any reason at all to summon, unless maybe I were desperatey fighting undead or demon hordes.



I think TheSelfishGene's comment is right on target:

<font color="red">"... as far as cost and everything, mages are fine. What is not fine are the summons and spells some of them can cast."</font>

I'd tweak the "best" spells rather than tweak the mages, mainly, I'd:

* Make life drain weapons cost at least 40 death gems or 80 blood slaves.
* Increase cost of gem-generating hoard items (clam etc.).
* Increase cost of Wrathful Skies.
* Increase cost of Bane Lords.
* Increase difficulty to cast and reduce strength/attack/defense of False Horrors.
* Increase cost of Ghost Riders.
* Increase cost of other powerful yet low-path and cheap spells.
* Increase path requirements of all troop-massacreing spells so it requires a powerful mage thanks to being a pretender or empowerment and items, rather than just research and a gem or two, to be the bane of mortal warriors (this is one of the main elements of the mod I've been working on, but not having time to finish).


PvK

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
* Make life drain weapons cost at least 40 death gems or 80 blood slaves.



I'd just switch to skull standards at that point, because 12 armour negating, auto-hitting life drain damage is probably a better bet than whatever the weapon damage would be.


* Increase cost of Wrathful Skies.



Increasing the requirements so that they match the fire version would probably be a better solution.


* Increase cost of Bane Lords.



To what extent? They walk a very fine line between cost-effectiveness and being wiped out by two-handed weapons.


* Increase path requirements of all troop-massacreing spells so it requires a powerful mage thanks to being a pretender or empowerment and items,



National mages with path enhancers should be all that is required, as empowerment is far too expensive to be practical.

[Endoperez]

But wouldn't the fact that empowerment is needed to use Wrathful Skies, Murdering Winter etc. make it very expensive, but also very practical?

Making them more expensive would be good, but I don't know if *needing* empowerment is too high or not. I see both pros and cons, but I don't know which would have bigger effect in the end.

[Saber Cherry]

There often seem to be summonable mages with high enough paths to cast high-level spells using boost items... such that only a single mage needs empowerment, and then it can summon many upkeep-free mages who can cast the spell. Depending on the spell and path, of course.

One aspect of increasing path costs to very high levels is that it might make the best combat spells in ANY path only usable by Astral nations (through communion). I don't know what can be done about that, though.

Battle-mages using low- and mid-level spells seem to really dominate combat even in the early game, though... it seems to me that Dominions II needs more effective low-level troop-buffing spells, not wimpy things that increase the aim of 3 units. Regardless, while there seem to be many comments that specific spells are problematic, does nobody else feel that battlefield spells in general dominate combat to the point that the specific types of troops used on the battlefield to shield the mages is largely irrelevant? If a soldier is doomed to die of lightning, does it matter how much defense, what kind of armor, what weapon, or how much experience he has? If some soldiers get through, it sort of matters. But in my experience, the vast bulk of soldiers in player-versus-player combat die of hostile spells... making the price-per-hitpoint, MR / immunities (if any), and flight / movement (get to the other side before dying of spells) the only really important unit stats.

Compared to what I envision of fantasy combat, it's really strange. A mage blowing away 50 soldiers in a single battle? That's fine, some mages are that powerful. Armies of mortals where 10% of the units are such mages? THAT is insane. No book, no mythology, nothing is like that - that I know of. Excepting, of course, games. Feel free to correct me, though; I haven't read as many fantasy books or as much mythology as many people here.

Increasing the price of mages increases the price of research and (more importantly) the cost of battle-mage turns. I think a sort of ideal situation would be one where at least as many units die from weapons as from battle magic (at least, until the late-game huge-area spells), and where mages are precious enough that it makes sense to give even mid-level wizards a 50-man escort and several protective artifacts (missile resistance amulet, lucky coin, etc) to ensure their safety... the sort of things wizards in books always seem to be carrying around, and the sort of respect they get from ordinary people. Am I alone in this?

[Turin]

Excellent post sabercherry.
I wonder how the game would be if every nation had philosopher like units for research and battle mages would be really expensive (500-1000 gp).

[The_Tauren13]

Saber Cherry said:
Am I alone in this?


Im with you all the way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Truper]

Perversely, the lack of gold in Dom2 has a tendency to increase the mage/troop ratio. In Dom1, there was often enough gold that the limiting factor was castles/labs. One recruited as many mages as one had sites from which to do so, and used the leftover for troops. There tended to be discussions in those days about which troops were more cost effective vs which others, whereas now discussions revolve mostly around the employment of magic.

If what's wanted is "at least as many units [dying] from weapons as from battle magic", there are a number of ways to go about it, but a counter-intuitive solution that might work is to increase the amount of gold available, to the point where a player might as well recruit troops along with his mages. (Then of course, that idea might be as crazy as it appears on the surface http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Another factor which tends to make mages perhaps too cost effective is that they are very hard to target. One can try flanking cavalry or groups of flyers with "attack rearmost", but in my experience that never results in said troops attacking the enemy mages - they'd prefer to move across the map to attack a single limping militia, rather than target the mages using (insert battlefield spell here) to kill them in droves. I'd actually advocate the return of the attack/fire mages order in Dom3, although I understand that that doesn't help anybody now.

[Huzurdaddi]

I have to say that sounds like an interesting mod Saber Cherry. I say : make it so.

Although I think I may want to play Jotunhiem. Or a heavy bless effect. One of the two.

[Evil Dave]

Saber Cherry said:
One aspect of increasing path costs to very high levels is that it might make the best combat spells in ANY path only usable by Astral nations (through communion). I don't know what can be done about that, though.



Cap the effect of communion, maybe?


it seems to me that Dominions II needs more effective low-level troop-buffing spells, not wimpy things that increase the aim of 3 units.


I've been idly wondering about simply knocking all the mass-improvement spells down two or three levels, but I haven't the foggiest idea what this would do to game balance.

And, as a further special case, replacing Ulm's starting spell with Weapons of Sharpness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

Graeme Dice said:
I'd just switch to skull standards at that point, because 12 armour negating, auto-hitting life drain damage is probably a better bet than whatever the weapon damage would be.




And they would suck. You don't add strength to that damage. And against lifeless units you lose all of the time, period, end of story.

[Saber Cherry]

Evil Dave said:
Cap the effect of communion, maybe?



Unfortunately, that cannot be done through mods.


I've been idly wondering about simply knocking all the mass-improvement spells down two or three levels, but I haven't the foggiest idea what this would do to game balance.



Some of those are really, really strong. If only there were weaker versions... of course, they're only strong if you fight with fighting units instead of mages, which people tend not to do. The big problem is that defensive spells are used offensively. You don't know when and where mages will teleport in and cast "Shimmering Fields" or "Wrathful Skies," so you won't have a high-level air mage ready with air gems, scripted to cast mass-lightning resistance. But if you already know you are going to teleport an army somewhere and cast lighting spells, you can have a mage ready to cast mass lighting protection. So... I tend to think that a lot of mass-improvement spells tend to make mages more offensively powerful, rather than less. But it probably depends on the styles of the players. Weaker version that do not require gems (say, 50% lightning resistance to 25 area, or 75% resistance to 5 area) would more likely be used defensively... I imagine.


And, as a further special case, replacing Ulm's starting spell with Weapons of Sharpness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



That's an interesting thought, and more useful than their current spell. But it would much more powerful than other nations' starting spells, and they can't hope to cast it unless the pretender takes Earth magic and is present in all the battles. Mechanical Militia (even though it's level 9), Strength of Giants, or Magma Bolts might be more fair. Strength of Giants would probably be quite useful.

Anyway, thanks for the comments!

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
And they would suck. You don't add strength to that damage



It's superior to a wraith sword if your commander has less than 3 more strength than the protection of the units he is facing. Depending on your enemies, 12 damage will be enough to kill them in one hit anyways. It also never misses, so you don't have to worry about missing an Allfather running around with air 9 and a defense score in the 30's. Plus, you'd get two of them for each wraith sword at that cost.


And against lifeless units you lose all of the time, period, end of story.



Well, except for a few cases, most lifeless units are best dealt with via a charcoal shield. No amount of life drain is ever going to help you there.

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:
Plus, you'd get two of them for each wraith sword at that cost.


Youre making the foolish assumption that the skull standards cost would remain the same under such a mod.

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
Youre making the foolish assumption that the skull standards cost would remain the same under such a mod.



How is that a foolish assumption? Most people will not manage to catch everything that allows what they consider to be "overpowered" tactics when they make their mods. If they increase the costs on skull standards and wraithswords, then they'll have to do the same to skullfaces and skull staves, since they all allow drain life to be cast. They'll also have to increase the cost of demiliches, wraith lords, mound fiends, and a nearly endless list of summoned units and commanders. Eventually, you'll be left with nothing more than sending large numbers of heavy infantry at each other, with the victory going not to the better player, but to the player who picked a good bless effect and/or one of the nations with good infantry.

[The_Tauren13]

PvK said:
* Make life drain weapons cost at least 40 death gems or 80 blood slaves.


How does that not include the skull standard?

[ChrisByler]

Demiliches, wraith lords and mound fiends can be banished and take extra damage from herald lances, holy pyre, etc. Golems or firbolgs or whatever with wraith swords can't and don't. You can empower those things in death - but then you're back to very expensive, just like the modded lifedrain weapons (which of course should include the standard - half the point is to make it harder to lifedrain without bringing your death mages to the battlefield where they can be killed).

[Saber Cherry]

Um, this discussion on lifedrain, while interesting, is getting a little off-topic... but if any of you have any more thoughts on specific overpriced, underpriced, and useless mages, please share them. Or thoughts on whether mages in general are overly powerful/cheap or overly weak/expensive, or just perfect.

[Scott Hebert]

As stated before, several national mages are undercosted (by formula), while at least as many are overcosted.

If we're going to get into summoned commanders, I feel like a blanket increase of 2x to 3x cost on all summoned commanders (except for perhaps the Revenant) would do well.

Specifically, Spectres and Lamia Queens are far too cheap for their abilities. The main issues with these (in particular) are that they have no upkeep; and once you are able to summon one, you will soon easily be able to summon the other.

The large-term ramification of the above issues is that research levels become largely meaningless. That is, your research pool snowballs. And, unlike Revenants, Lamia Queens and Spectres are also quite useful as combat mages.

Suggested solutions:

1) While not possible with Dom2 (I think), giving summoned mages a magic gem upkeep would be one way to limit them.

2) Reduce all summoned mages' research levels to 0.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[Oversway]

Maybe just a gem cost increase would be enough.

[Scott Hebert]

A gem-cost increase changes the balance, but does not change the paradigm.

Being unable to use summoned mages for research would change the paradigm, and therefore be a more drastic change.

I agree that increasing the gem cost moves the balance point, but that does nothing to change the inherent position.

[Oversway]

You would summon tons of lamia queens and specters for research if the gem cost was 2x - 3x?

I would summon some of them to get other paths, but I'd look for cheaper research options and spend my gems on other things.

Actually, that is what I do now at the current price. Maybe I should amass them more....

[Scott Hebert]

I don't know many mage researchers more efficient than the Lamia Queen and the Specter.

While I may not summon as many of them if they were triple the cost, the fact that they still wouldn't be horrible at research and would be quite useful in combat says a lot.

As for cheaper... does anyone know of a cheaper alternative to the Specter or the Lamia Queen?

[Huzurdaddi]

In games I have played I think that I have only relied upon summoned casters as researchers when playing ermor. I suppose I would do the same with CW but I never play them. Summoned casters are make for cracking heads not research.

[Scott Hebert]

It's hard to argue with a mage that is just as good as your national mages in research (and combat), but cost no upkeep or even gold.

[Oversway]

Nah, gems are a rarer commodity than gold with nearly all settings/maps.

[Turin]

It´s easy to argue against him. A spectre costs 10 death gems, which is worth at least 300 gold to me.
A caelum seraph costs 100 gold and is just as good at researching. So factoring upkeep in it takes 30 turns until the spectre is cheaper than the seraph. That´s a pretty long time, so you are usually better off using national mages for research.
And if you find a library it´s a nobrainer to buy sages.

[Scott Hebert]

Except that a Sage is rather useless once you've researched everything. Or, at the very least, is much less useful.

And, well, if you think a Spectre is worth 300g, I'll just say I disagree with you.

And don't use the Caelian mages as a baseline, as they are woefully undercosted.

[Endoperez]

He didn't say that Spectres were worth 300 gold. That was the value of 10 Death gems, which could have been used on Wraith Swords, Tartarians, Bane Lords, Ghost Riders, Legion of Wights, Army of the Dead... Easily 300 gp, especially after you can choose from all of these. Having a choice is very valuable on its own!

[Scott Hebert]

If he did not say it, he heavily implied it. Unless the Spectre is worth the whole 300g, then his math is off.

Using appropriate math (a 3-research mage of the Seraph's paths costing 140g), even using the whole 300g as a starting point gives a 16-turn turnover in RoI. And I dispute that a Spectre is worth 300g.

Another issue is one that other have brought up, in that you are not limited to a mage-per-lab with summoned mages.

Wouldn't that be funny? It can't be modded, but if only one mage could use a lab per turn... that would drastically change the nature of magic in the game.

[Huzurdaddi]

Perhaps I should have said "gems are made for cracking heads" instead of "summoned casters are made for cracking heads."

In any case you will rarely see gems ( especially death gems ) being used to summon casters that will primarly used for research in multiplayer games. There are just too many good things to be doing with gems.

[Turin]

Well, I will happily trade 30 gp for 1 death gem in every mp game after ~turn15-20.
I used the seraph, because almost every nation has a special research unit, so it make sense to take an above average unit.

Usually the restricting factor when it comes to recruiting is lack of gold/gems, not the lack of usable labs. If you have to much gold to spend you can simply build more labs.

[Scott Hebert]

If you could trade, perhaps. Unfortunately, death gems are worth 15/4 gold each (strictly speaking).

And, of course, if you're saying that you'd spend that much to get 1 death gem... wouldn't that be an argument in favor of death gems being too valuable?

And, should you wish to use a 'research unit', try the Seithkona or any other 1/1/1 mage, since that's actually better for your argument.

However, a Spectre is worth more than any 1/1/1 mage.

And finally... no, it makes absolutely no sense to use an 'above-average' unit unless you want everything to be above average, in which case I suggest you play with all magic at research level 0 and all spells costing a maximum of 5 gems.

[Turin]

Well it seems it makes no sense to discuss this further.

Mass spectres to your heart´s content, I´m sure soon there will be dozens of threads calling for a nerf to this overpowered unit.

[PDF]

IMHO, the easiest way to solve the "researching summons" issue could be just to make them poor researchers.
With for example -4 RP the Spectre gets 1 RP in any non-Magic environment and would be a pretty lame investment for research.

[Arralen]

Why not simply give them upkeep costs in gold ?

[Saber Cherry]

Arralen said:
Why not simply give them upkeep costs in gold ?



Well, for Spectres, they're undead... and thus, while balancing, it is hard to justify. Lamia Queens could get upkeep, though.

I like PDF's suggestion for research, though... even a -1 or -2 research penalty for upkeep-free mages could have profound effects on which choices and investments are the best in a given situation.

There are many possible rationales... for example, they are vengeful undead summoned from their graves, powered by hatred and the desire to kill, and thus uninterested in research. Or because they are merely brainless souls, they are able to fully use their memories of the previous life, but inefficient at tasks requiring high mental agility like studying and learning new things. Others (like Coatls) simply lack the appendages, intelligence (golems), humility (elemental royalty), desire (non-astral Ice and Arch devils), or physical shape (Vastness, Treelord) to conduct efficient research. Not that many of these are commonly used for research, but all of them have good rationalizations for why they shouldn't be allowed to research efficiently. It makes sense to me that mortals, with their short lives, would be much more focused on research and progress and haste compared to beings for whom time is fairly abstract, such that mortal mages should be inherently better at research than magical creatures and undeads, and that any intelligent mortal summon might demand pay.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions; I'll look through the summonable mages and think about them.

[PDF]

To Arralen : it just sounds ridiculous to pay Spectres some gold to make them happy, I'd prefer my idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

To SC : I've suggested -4 RP to give a figure, this can be debated, but again it sounds more thematic to have summons make rituals, items, and combat, than holding them in labs to get research done.

And I'm still not convinced that research is the best thing to do with a LQ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

Turin said:
Well it seems it makes no sense to discuss this further.

Mass spectres to your heart´s content, I´m sure soon there will be dozens of threads calling for a nerf to this overpowered unit.



In this care Turin is correct. You guys are barking up the wrong tree here unless this is in the context of making casters far more expensive than they are today.

Spectres researching is a non-issue unless you are playing ermor and have found a conjuration site, oh and maybe CW too.