View Full Version : PBEM Game: King of the Hill 2 (Closed)
Alneyan
April 21st, 2005, 12:51 PM
There has been interest in a sequel to the King of the Hill game (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dom2MP&Number=309781), so here it is! The settings of the first game have been pasted at the end of this post.
The only change I would consider is to make the choice of nations on a "top 3" basis: every player gives three nations (in order of preference), and nations claimed by more than one player are assigned according to the rule of Dice (or by agreement). With only six players, there shouldn't be a lot of trouble picking nations though.
I have been thinking of joining the game as a player this time; if I do play, I will use "regular" means to check who is holding the Hill (spying and Astral Window). The "rankings every five turns" setting would also become "full values given every five turns": being the only one knowing the exact number of provinces/forts... all nations have would be unbalancing.
Current roster:
- Cainehill: ?
- Griffin: Ermor
- Izaqyos: Pythium
- Oversway: Machaka
- Tauren: Pangaea
- Alneyan: T'ien Ch'i
Settings of King of the Hill 2:
- Map: Theater of War (weights 6 mo), can be downloaded from here (http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom2/theater.zip).
- Number of players: 6 players.
- Independent Strength of 6.
- Difficult magic research.
- Zen's Pretender mod 2.01, and Scales mod 1.2 (both are attached to this post).
- 15 Hall of Fame entries.
- Special starting locations are switched on, and will be more or less identical.
- Graphs are off, but you will be given the rankings (and only the rankings) of all nations every five turns.
The victory condition is to hold a central province, called the Hill, and to keep it under your control for 20 turns, not necessarily in a row. This condition starts from turn 10 onwards. Note that you will have to be in actual control of the province, or to be besieging it; being besieged does not count towards the victory condition.
The_Tauren13
April 21st, 2005, 01:08 PM
Im definitely in. Gotta have some time to decide on Nations, though.
I guess in case we decide not to do your 'top 3' idea (which I think is a good idea and I vote for), Ill go ahead and claim Pangaea.
The Panther
April 21st, 2005, 02:37 PM
I will offer to host this game so Alneyan can play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Of course, I would appreciate if he were to send me the map file so I don't have to create it myself.
Panther
Alneyan
April 21st, 2005, 02:53 PM
File attached for PBW. Please disregard.
Having an outside the game host isn't as important here as for other games, but an independent host is always better than a host-player combo. Thanks for the offer Panther! I will send you the modified map file (and it will be uploaded on this thread if we play with the same map file). Does any of the players in KOTH1 have comments about the changes made to the maps? Those include different starting positions, some changes in province types (fewer plains in what was Ermor's isle, fewer deserts and wastes in Machaka's isle, and a sea province converted into land), and a change in the mainland connection on Ermor's isle. My top three is as follow (though I am not too sure of the order yet): T'ien Ch'i, Man, Ulm. Edited for clarity/emphasis.
Oversway
April 21st, 2005, 06:37 PM
Sounds like fun.
Machaka, Marignon, ?
Let me think about the 3rd choice. Hopefully I'll get one of my first two.
Cainehill
April 21st, 2005, 08:07 PM
I'd enjoy another KoTH game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Pangaea, Marignon, Jotunheim
quantum_mechani
April 21st, 2005, 08:28 PM
Must... resist... joining... another... game...
GriffinOfBuerrig
April 22nd, 2005, 09:17 AM
Jipiee, i am in and then i also have my "3 Games Maximum"!
Emor, Marigion, Machaka
Alneyan
April 22nd, 2005, 10:45 AM
Well, that would make five players (one spot is left for another player):
- Cainehill: Pangaea, Marignon, Jotunheim
- Griffin: Ermor, Marignon, Machaka
- Oversway: Machaka, Marignon, and Arcoscephale
- The_Tauren: To be determined (likely Pangaea first)
- Alneyan: T'ien Ch'i, Ulm, Man
On the matter of the settings: Zen Pretenders mod will likely be used in its latest version (2.01). Any thought on other mods, like the Scales and Spells mods, or SC's recruitable units mod?
The modified mapfile is attached to this post.
Oversway
April 22nd, 2005, 11:23 AM
I'd be happy with any mods or none.
I'll pick Arco as my third choice.
WraithLord
April 22nd, 2005, 01:37 PM
Trying hard to resist the temptation of another dominions game.
Aaargh!
My will has failed. I want in.
( Should have cast iron will on myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )
Well then, for me,
Pythium,
Caelum (if not banned),
Arco.
Alneyan
April 22nd, 2005, 01:52 PM
That would give us a full house, with the following players playing the following nations (incidentally, those four players weren't in the first KOTH, but we happened to pick four of the six nations that took part in the first game):
- Griffin: Ermor
- Izaqyos: Pythium
- Oversway: Machaka
- Alneyan: T'ien Ch'i
There is a problem between Cainehill and Tauren however, who both picked Pangaea as first nation. If either one of you would rather not play Pangaea, please pick another nation (Marignon in the case of Cainehill, to be determined for Tauren). If you both want Pangaea, the rule of Dice will apply.
- Cainehill: Pangaea, Marignon, Jotunheim
- The_Tauren: To be determined (likely Pangaea first)
Oversway
April 22nd, 2005, 05:57 PM
I'll put in a request for zens scale mod (v1.2) if the other players do not object. I like it being more worthwhile to pick something besides order, sloth, death, and misfortune
WraithLord
April 22nd, 2005, 06:45 PM
Oversway said:
I'll put in a request for zens scale mod (v1.2) if the other players do not object. I like it being more worthwhile to pick something besides order, sloth, death, and misfortune
Where can I find information regarding the changes in zen's scales mod.
or maybe somene can list briefly the major changes.
thanks.
The_Tauren13
April 22nd, 2005, 10:46 PM
prod: 4% income, 15% resources
growth: 4% income, .3% growth
misfortune: 13%
iirc, thats all
As to playing Pangaea, I absolutely want to play it, as I havent a clue what I would do otherwise...
quantum_mechani
April 22nd, 2005, 11:04 PM
izaqyos said:
Oversway said:
I'll put in a request for zens scale mod (v1.2) if the other players do not object. I like it being more worthwhile to pick something besides order, sloth, death, and misfortune
Where can I find information regarding the changes in zen's scales mod.
or maybe somene can list briefly the major changes.
thanks.
*Double the normal income effect for each point of death or sloth scales (still less than a point of order).
*50% more pop growth/death from death scale, and 50% more/less resources from sloth.
*Misfortune 1/3 more likely give bad events.
*1/3 higher chance for rare events.
And that's it. But let me tell you it makes a huge difference (for the better).
Alneyan
April 23rd, 2005, 09:52 AM
A notice about the fatherland file Panther; you may already be aware of this, but I guess repeating something never hurts. The problem of this file is that you cannot entrust it to the players, but it is the most important file for a game: the fatherland file can recreate the .trn files, and allows the hosting of the game.
So, you should back up the fatherland files somewhere, in case of a hard drive crash or some such (granted, I am paranoid). A FTP somewhere or a floppy/CD-Rom would do the trick; alternatives include sending it to my own backup mail on Gandalf's server (but that may defeat part of the point in having an host not involved in the game), or perhaps even encrypting the file. Gandalf is also working on a small upload routine, so that may be another solution.
Cainehill
April 23rd, 2005, 10:28 AM
Given the terms stated in the original post, I'd suggest Alneyan dicing to determine who gets Pangaea as it's by far my most preferred nation for this game.
Alneyan
April 23rd, 2005, 10:36 AM
Aye, the rule of the Dice apply here: I have used Heads or Tails this time, with three heads/tails needed to win. Tauren (as tails) won 3 to 1, so Tauren will be playing Pangaea.
The_Tauren13
April 23rd, 2005, 12:25 PM
Alneyan said:
- Zen's Pretender mod 1.81.
I assume were updating to pretenders 2.0?
And are we going to use 2.15 or 2.16?
Alneyan
April 23rd, 2005, 12:31 PM
The very latest version is 2.01, attached to this post. We should be using this one for the sake of simplicity (I don't think there are a lot of differences with vanilla 2.0). The latest version of the Scales mod (1.2) is also attached to the post; unless someone objects, both these mods will be used.
I am none too sure about the version; to the best of my knowledge, there have been no problems with 2.16, so this version should be fine. I can run either 2.15 or 2.16 though (or any version between 2.08 and 2.16 for this matter).
Cainehill
April 23rd, 2005, 01:29 PM
There's been some posting regarding some fairly serious bugs in 2.16 (astral magic duels and whatnot - 6+ astral magic difference and the lesser mage wins and survives)...
Hmm. Was really hoping for Pangaea - any objections if I look at the 2.01 pretender mod and choose from the remaining nations, or shall I stick to Marignon / Jotuns as I'd posted?
Alneyan
April 23rd, 2005, 01:32 PM
I believe the Magic Duel problem does not come from 2.16; if memory serves, Jurri and Tuidjy had such experiences before 2.16. I will run a little test under 2.15 though.
I wouldn't object if you pick another of the available nations.
Oversway
April 25th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Should we start sending in our pretenders?
The Panther
April 25th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Kristoffer posted on the other forum and explained the Magic Duel situation. There is no bug. What happens is that only the BASE astral level matters during a duel. No artifacts, no communion, no "Light of the Northern Star". None of that counts during the actual mental fight. This is why mages with seemingly 6+ astral levels can still sometimes die in a duel. Use this spell at your own risk!
Feel free to start sending the pretenders to me at my email address:
ThePanther@comcast.net
Be sure and put in a pretender password, for I intend to mass mail all 6 turn files to all 6 players each time. If I see a pretender without a password, I will ask for a resend. I will use a master password so I can view all things and make sure everybody is honest. I will also back up all fatherland file to one of those USB data devices in case of a computer or hard disk crash.
I intend to upgrade to version 16 and use that in this game unless there is a hue and cry over this.
The Panther
April 25th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Cainehill said:
Was really hoping for Pangaea - any objections if I look at the 2.01 pretender mod and choose from the remaining nations, or shall I stick to Marignon / Jotuns as I'd posted?
I will make a 'Panther' rule and say that, since you lost your primary pick, you can choose from any of the remaining nations. Except a water race, of course, which is not allowed on this map.
Alneyan
April 25th, 2005, 03:08 PM
I am not sure if Magic Duel discards *all* boosts, but it isn't affected by most of them. In one of my tests, a mage with a seven level difference (with one of those seven levels coming from a spell) still lived through 500 Magic Duels, while his base level was a mere 6 levels above the target. It could have been plain luck however: 500 tests on a 1/36 odd is probably inconclusive. In other cases, the Magic Duel spell worked as "featured", and disregarded boosts coming from items.
My Pretender should come in a little while, once I am done with my final changes.
Oversway
April 26th, 2005, 02:44 PM
I sent mine. I hate thinking of pretender names. I settled on Maju but I'm not that wild about it. It seems machaka-y enough though.
WraithLord
April 26th, 2005, 03:15 PM
sent mine (pythium)
Alneyan
April 26th, 2005, 03:41 PM
My own Pretender is in, with an amazingly original name: Shenlong! (Or maybe it should be Shen Long)
Oversway
April 26th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Well that is half of us.
Are the forts between the inner and outer worlds still going to be in place?
Alneyan
April 26th, 2005, 04:03 PM
All forts (and special defenders) have been dropped from the map file: it has been decided to do so in the first game because of the way independent forts are handled (among other reasons). Basically, a single scout is all it takes to secure an independent province protected by a castle, as the independents never patrol outside their fort.
Oversway
April 26th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Is the map file available? Perhaps in the old thread (although I didn't see that thread). Or should I just go and delete the lines from my existing one?
GriffinOfBuerrig
April 26th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Sent mine, named "Griffin"
Alneyan
April 26th, 2005, 04:30 PM
The map file has been attached on an earlier post in this thread. Direct link is here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=349988). The link for the KOTH1 thread is available on the earliest post in this thread.
You do not have to put the .map file in your maps repertory however, as it is only needed to set up the game. A list of changes would be useful, however:
- Most starting positions have been altered, so that everybody starts three provinces away from the province allowing to leave the island. So please disregard the red square provinces.
- The South East island has had its connection to the mainland switched (it was on a corner of the isle, and is now in the center of the isle, as for all the other isles).
- The water province near the link with the South-East island is now a land province.
- There are fewer plains in the South East island, and fewer wastelands on another island (the South West one, if memory serves).
- All forts and customised independents have been removed (actually, the map editor removed all those lines on its own).
Oversway
April 26th, 2005, 04:33 PM
Oops, sorry, I thought that link was to the .tga file which I already had. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
The Panther
April 27th, 2005, 08:08 PM
I have received five of the six pretender files. GUESS WHO is missing.... Do we want to reopen the game to a new sixth player who might actually select a nation and make a pretender?
Also, Griffin did not put in a password and will have to resend his pretender. I sent him an email to this effect.
It took me a while to realize that I had to put the pretender files in my newlords directory before creating the game, but I eventually figured it out.
ThePanther@comcast.net
The Panther
April 27th, 2005, 10:32 PM
I am beginning to see why Alneyan likes to host games for other people. Just looking at the 5 pretenders sent is really cool. The diversity in this game is simply amazing. We have:
1. Two SC-style monsters with medium magic who, after some quick research, can likely destroy neutrals solo. They both will eventually be fighting over the top spot in the HoF.
2. A human rainbow pretender who will conduct massive research, find a plethora of sites, and construct most any artifact required.
3. A low-magic, inexpensive pretender with very nice power scales, one who will quickly be awash in gold, especially considering the Zen scale mods.
4. A pretender with quite high magic abilities, including a level 9 bless.
We also have 2 watch towers, one castle, one fortress and one citadel.
I truly look forward to see how the players utilize their pretenders. Assuming, that is, the game will start sometime soon.
Cainehill
April 28th, 2005, 12:43 AM
The Panther said:
I have received five of the six pretender files. GUESS WHO is missing.... Do we want to reopen the game to a new sixth player who might actually select a nation and make a pretender?
Also, Griffin did not put in a password and will have to resend his pretender. I sent him an email to this effect.
It took me a while to realize that I had to put the pretender files in my newlords directory before creating the game, but I eventually figured it out.
ThePanther@comcast.net
My regrets - it's been a rough week. I'll have a pretender sent tonight if everyone else is in. On the other paw - feh.
The Panther
April 28th, 2005, 11:30 AM
Cainehill sent me his Marignon pretender, so the game has begun...
Oversway
April 28th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Allright! We're off.
What was the reason for the first 10 turns not counting? In my test games, I couldn't get to the hill by turn 10. With difficult reasearch, I don't think a teleport type spell could be researched before then either, although I didn't try. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, however?
Alneyan
April 28th, 2005, 02:49 PM
The reason is to allow all nations to reach the Hill right as the clock starts ticking: 10 full turns is exactly what is needed to get to the Hill on turn 11, while waiting for turn 2 before attacking (there are nine provinces on the way).
If holding the Hill counted right from the start, nations having fliers or sneaking troops would have quite an edge (Caelum among them). It should be possible to get Teleport before turn 10, though that would require investing quite a bit in mages and/or having a Rainbow mage. Boots of flying or a flying Pretender should also do the trick.
At least, I believe it was my rationale when I initially set that rule for the first game.
Oversway
April 28th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Ah, that makes sense. Sheesh, I didn't even think about some of the options there. Well hopefully my narrow-minded strategy will still work.
GriffinOfBuerrig
April 28th, 2005, 09:54 PM
Is the hill defensed in any way? Some big guys?
Alneyan
April 29th, 2005, 05:29 AM
No special defence on the Hill, except your fellow players and independents. The Hill itself isn't a great province I think, so independents there should be fairly weak; of course, your fellow players are unlikely to be that weak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Cainehill
May 3rd, 2005, 11:10 AM
Alneyan said:
The reason is to allow all nations to reach the Hill right as the clock starts ticking: 10 full turns is exactly what is needed to get to the Hill on turn 11, while waiting for turn 2 before attacking (there are nine provinces on the way).
Err - 7 provinces on the way, not counting the Hill itself. Possible to get there on turn 8, especially when someone was very bold and started attacking on turn 1. Glad it doesn't count until turn 10. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Alneyan
May 3rd, 2005, 11:15 AM
I must have added one province on the way then, as you are indeed correct: eight provinces to take to get to the Hill (that includes the Hill). Well, my point remains the same, I guess.
The Panther
May 3rd, 2005, 12:23 PM
Ten is a nice round number anyway, which makes it easy for me to remember when to start counting. Plus, there will be a graph status on Turn 10, the move before I start counting. I seem to recall in King of the Hill Part 1 that T'ien Ch'i had the hill on Turn 11 and held it something like 13 turns before getting knocked off. But TC eventually reclaimed it some 30-40 turns later and kept it just long enough to squeak out the win by a 20-19 score over Ermor.
That first game did kind of get messed up because 2 players fought each other the whole game (for whatever reason) and never took the hill. Plus another player blatently assisted TC to get the win over Ermor. Hopefully, this game will go a bit better.
I want to mention that I will be out of town at my sister's place in Arlington, Texas this weekend. My brother will be bringing our mom up from south Texas and we are going to have a big party on Mother's Day this Sunday. Plus, Sunday happens to be my birthday also (don't even ask how old). I will be leaving early Friday and not returning home until late Tuesday. So the game pace will slow significantly from what we have been doing.
I am taking along the Dominion's CD and plan to install it on my sister's computer. I will also bring along the fatherland file and hope it all works out correctly. If this fails, then there will not be much action in this game for a while.
Just a note, KotH is using Version 2.18. I don't know if the battle replays are messed up if you are using an older version.
I have noticed a very interesting fact in this game. Every single player has lost to independents already. Multiple times each even! With only level 6 indies, I thought people would roll through them. But it seems that all 6 players are underestimating the strength of those independant provinces. It is almost like people feel they can win with most anything since they are not at the usual 9 level. It has been very enlighting to me so far. Twice, I have seen a province not taken until the third try!
It has certainly been fun watching what everybody is doing and I have added a few things to my own bag of tricks.
Alneyan
May 3rd, 2005, 01:00 PM
The Panther said:
(don't even ask how old)
How old? Sorry, couldn't resist. *Scrams*
The Panther
May 3rd, 2005, 01:13 PM
Alneyan said:
The Panther said:
(don't even ask how old)
How old? Sorry, couldn't resist. *Scrams*
Let's just say I have a 20-year old daughter going to college in France right now...
Oversway
May 3rd, 2005, 02:26 PM
I have noticed a very interesting fact in this game. Every single player has lost to independents already. Multiple times each even! With only level 6 indies, I thought people would roll through them. But it seems that all 6 players are underestimating the strength of those independant provinces. It is almost like people feel they can win with most anything since they are not at the usual 9 level. It has been very enlighting to me so far. Twice, I have seen a province not taken until the third try!
Only true if you are counting my units/commanders set on fire and flee/hold hold retreat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
But, my progress towards the hill is slower than I hoped. Stupid 1-move hoplites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Cainehill
May 4th, 2005, 12:34 AM
The Panther said:
Just a note, KotH is using Version 2.18. I don't know if the battle replays are messed up if you are using an older version.
2.16, I hope you mean? Most recent version I know of unless maybe you're a beta tester. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I have noticed a very interesting fact in this game. Every single player has lost to independents already. Multiple times each even! With only level 6 indies, I thought people would roll through them. But it seems that all 6 players are underestimating the strength of those independant provinces. It is almost like people feel they can win with most anything since they are not at the usual 9 level. It has been very enlighting to me so far. Twice, I have seen a province not taken until the third try!
Personally, it isn't that I'm underestimating them (and I think I've only lost once to indies), rather I have felt a need to make some gambles because of how other nations were doing.
For instance : Seeing Tien Chi's pretender massing more kills every turn without dying meant that I knew TC was taking a province a turn. To try and not fall _too_ far behind, I gambled against a province with heavy cavalry, and almost took it - killed all the HC's except a leader, might have won but my prophet paladin died, causing the troops to retreat.
Under other circumstances I would've waited the turn or two to bring more forces in, and possibly still should have. As it was, I was sorely tempted to try for them again with leftovers last turn, but didn't feel I could afford to lose troops twice.
Also handicapped a little by my choice of pretenders - I felt somewhat constrained to _not_ take advantage of foreknowledge of everyone else's pretenders and castles.
As is, I hope you'll be saving all the turns - I didn't look at the last game, but I'm definately curious to see TC's charge for the Hill that started on turn 1. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Oversway
May 11th, 2005, 10:19 AM
Can one of you please knock tien chi off the hill? All those turns are making me nervous http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Alneyan
May 11th, 2005, 10:25 AM
I will knock T'ien Ch'i as soon as possible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Nay, don't worry, I have no strategy whatsoever, and T'ien Ch'i lives (or dies) by its strategy. They are the most versatible version around (and by far)... but you need to figure something to do with all their magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I have the same problem in Song of the Blade: I have the brilliant idea, but not much besides that... All the opportunities I waste. *Sighs*
Oversway
May 13th, 2005, 06:24 PM
*huff* *puff* I'm getting closer to the hill! Now can I take it with what I have... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Sheesh with Pythium's income, he should be taking the hill any turn now.
WraithLord
May 15th, 2005, 06:20 AM
Oversway said:
*huff* *puff* I'm getting closer to the hill! Now can I take it with what I have... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Sheesh with Pythium's income, he should be taking the hill any turn now.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Will do my best.
Oversway
May 18th, 2005, 05:52 PM
I think you missed my email I sent monday. I resent it and also another email with my turn attached. I will try to check later tonight to make sure you got it.
GriffinOfBuerrig
May 23rd, 2005, 07:37 AM
Ooops, there was no trn-file attached on your last mail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Scores:
Emor = 1 <-- Juhu²
Oversway
May 29th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Ermor build a temple on the hill? Interesting. I figured someone would build a lab but temple...? Very confident http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I suppose you've been pillaging it this whole time too? That would be smart.
dzbabi
May 30th, 2005, 06:08 AM
Griffin here:
Of course i do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif This was such a wealthy prov before i steped i in it.:-]
I am quite sure that i will do it, emor seems to be perfect for a king of the hill battle.
Griffin
The_Tauren13
May 31st, 2005, 01:00 AM
Heh. I should point out that in the 1st KotH I had an army of twice that many undead, backed up by more than fifty BE thaumaturges spamming nether darts (the quickest destruction being dealt out ive ever seen...), and still lost 1 turn short of the goal.
My point is, it takes more than just a big army to hold the hill for long enough... something I failed to see until it was too late.
dzbabi
May 31st, 2005, 06:58 AM
What do you mean by BE thaumaturges?
And who won last round?
Griffin
The_Tauren13
May 31st, 2005, 11:20 AM
Broken Empire theme ('default') for Ermor recruits thaumaturges with 1S1D2U.
Rainbow won playing T'ien Ch'i.
And he definitely deserved it...
Oversway
June 8th, 2005, 10:20 AM
Will this game be 'on hold' while you are away, Panther?
The Panther
June 8th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Perhaps I can find someone else to take over hosting of this game. However, I think Alneyan also wanted the game on hold around the same time I am gone, so it might be best to pause the game for a few weeks until everybody returns in July.
Opinions?
Alneyan
June 8th, 2005, 10:49 AM
Erh, I do not want the game to be on hold; I will simply be away for two weeks, starting from when you will be away. I should be able to find a replacing player without too much trouble.
PashaDawg
June 17th, 2005, 01:12 AM
Hmmmm... So, when should I be expecting to host the next turn?
The Panther
June 17th, 2005, 01:31 AM
Sometime on Friday. Everybody is pretty good about sending in the turns fairly quickly.
PashaDawg
June 18th, 2005, 10:45 AM
Sent out new turn! Let me know if I missed any of my tasks as the surrogate host.
GriffinOfBuerrig
June 18th, 2005, 10:54 AM
No, everything was fine.
Alneyan
June 18th, 2005, 11:03 AM
You did miss something Pasha: you were supposed to alter Ermor's order file, thereby allowing us to take the Hill without a fight. That wasn't too hate, was it? I mean, just set all his commanders to retreat, and voilà! Instant concentrated undead soup!
Tsk, Pasha accepted my bribe but didn't go along with the rest of the plan. I thought hosts were supposed to be honest folks, sticking to the right side of the law... well, except where I have interest in them doing otherwise, of course.
In other words, I find those Ermorian troops to be quite annoying.
PashaDawg
June 18th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Bribe? Which bribe was yours... <looking around the room for a case of French wine>?
The_Tauren13
June 21st, 2005, 07:46 PM
Well, gg. We were all taken like bumpkins at the state fair...
Cainehill
June 21st, 2005, 09:55 PM
Untrue. Some of us - like you and me - never got a chance to assault the hill earlier.
Others who neighbored the hill ... pranced and flew about taking indies even after the matter had grown severe.
Then again - much as I enjoy the KoTH formula, I definately hope for support for it in the next patch or Dom 3 - please, whoever is hosting, don't be posting comments about pretender designs!!!
Not during the game, and most especially not before all pretenders are uploaded - it impacts game play, and it impacts pretender design.
On the other paw - obviously Marignon needs to be banned from KotH 3, since we simply masqueraded as Ermor to distract everyone as we divided and conquered. Heh.
WraithLord
June 22nd, 2005, 05:21 AM
Cainehill said:
Untrue. Some of us - like you and me - never got a chance to assault the hill earlier.
I wonder who prevented you from assaulting the hill earlier?
Cainehill said:
Others who neighbored the hill ... pranced and flew about taking indies even after the matter had grown severe.
This is just low. I'd suggest that you avoid throwing provocative statements around.
I think that if we had started cooperating earlier we'd have had a better chance.
Griffin has done a fine job of securing the hill.
All that's left is to congratulate him.
Oversway
June 22nd, 2005, 10:47 AM
Yeah good job Ermor/Griffin!
GriffinOfBuerrig
June 22nd, 2005, 11:29 AM
Thank you all for your gratulations, this game was real fun to me(and the first one i won!)
My tatic was quite straight: i used the dragon to get as many indies in the bginning of the game as possible to ensure a constant stream of undeads and i chose that high domionion to force all my opponets to care on food.
I was a bit afraid of the pangae after i realized that he played as carnion woods(beacuse of his death magic).
Greets and thank you for all
Griffin, King of the Hill
Oversway
June 22nd, 2005, 01:25 PM
Your high dominion worked well, but food was a problem for me anyways, since the hill is surrounded by waste.
It seems to me your skeleton spamming helped you out a lot in those battles. The two bishops were good tactics as well.
Cainehill
June 22nd, 2005, 01:38 PM
First victory? Congrats indeed!
The_Tauren13
June 22nd, 2005, 02:13 PM
Meh, Carrion Woods sucks. Completely. I keep trying to make it work with different strategies and pretender designs, but the more I try to do anything with it, the more I start to think even base Ulm is better...
Alneyan
June 22nd, 2005, 02:36 PM
I think the only redeeming feature of CW is the ability to kind of play them like Broken Empire: they can mix living troops and their undead minions without *too* much trouble (they have a fairly slow Dominion pop loss, 30.000 pop in the capital, and resources aren't really linked to population). Problem is, I don't think the undead troops are that good to warrant the trouble, and mages aren't the greatest thing in the world either.
It is possible to do very well with base Ulm (Entwined Destiny, if nothing else), but I have yet to see an example of Carrion Woods doing well in a game where more than one player is involved (a rush could work for them... maybe).
Cainehill
June 22nd, 2005, 04:52 PM
I've had good success with CW, winning one small blitz game, and being in a winning position on a long term game on the cradle map. In fact, CW was what I was going to be using this game only Tauren got Pan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
The_Tauren13
June 22nd, 2005, 06:42 PM
You cant really build any normal troops, though. The upkeep kills you too quickly. By about turn 20, you are down to 10k pop in your capitol. And you need all your money for mages, and even then can only get a couple, once again due to the upkeep. Because of this, you will get almost no research until you get specters, unless you put the carrion lords on research instead of reanimate, in which case you will get absolutely no troops.
So, Im curious, Cainehill, what did your winning Carrion Woods pretender designs look like? The best I came up with was a golden naga with every magic school except death and nature. She could both solo-creep (even against lvl 9 indies, with alt 3) and site search. Then, once I got specters and enough construction, I could forge boosting items with the naga, and actually start doing some usefull stuff.
My mistake this game was getting a pretender incapable of taking indies, and since carrion beasts suck completely for that, I was unable to get any territory. Taking order 3 was a waste, too. I could have traded that order 3 for turmoil 3 and then gotten the naga with the same magic paths as the damn crone, and then even have had points left over.
Cainehill
June 26th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Golden Naga with no nature or death? Mistake IMO. You need a pretender that can expand and site search, not to mention casting to summons carrion lords, etc. By not taking D/N you need someone else to search for those, and you _have_ to have at least one Panic Apostate to do your summonings, chewing up your gold income. Also, if you don't take Nature-4 on the pretender, you need a lot of research before you'd be able to cast Mother Oak - with N4 you only need const-2 to do the +1 booster, otherwise you need const-6 for the staff, and chew up a lot more nature gems.
You can have 3 kinds of expansion pretenders, all of which can work well with CW. The supercombatant - Carrion Dragon is probably the perfect one for CW; with Zen's mods the Medusa is also possible.
A summoner - enough death magic to bring forth enough skeletons to take provinces. IMO, the lich is the only one worth doing this with, both because of cheap death magic and reincarnation for when it doesn't work.
Artillery - slower for CW because of the required research, but potentially better in the late game.
In any case - for CW I'd never take a pretender that didn't have at least 3 or 4 fire magic, probably 2 or 3 earth, plus the death and nature and depending on my whim, 2 more paths. One reason I feel fire/earth is mandatory - site searching for gems to turn to gold, which is only used to get mages or buildings, never troops.
Starting strategy : One choice is to prophetize the centaur to immediately start generating carrion, since he's not going to be much use otherwise. Another choice, and probably your best choice if you didn't take death/nature on the pretender, is to buy your one and only Panic leader for casting Carrion Lord, and prophetize him to save ... 12 gold a turn on upkeep? Or you cast your first Carrion Lord and prophetize it to give the battlefield wide regrowth, even if it doesn't affect most of your carrion because of good MR vice "easily resisted".
If the indie setting is 6 or less, you can usually take a province or two with your starting satyrs, especially if you can bring some carrion along. The point isn't just to take provinces - it's to get your satyrs killed for upkeep reasons.
And, not even counting successful finding of nature sites, you continue casting Carrion Lord every 4 turns. Each Lord is turned to reanimating 90% of the time. Temples get build in every forest province for more & better carrions to be spawned there. Research and cast Mother Oak as soon as possible to afford more Carrion Lords, also later Lamia Queens for better magic availability.
Also, some of those nature gems should go towards vine men / ogres to mix with the carrion, and for castings of Swarm. Both the vine men and the swarms help reduce the casualties for the carrion.
And in the meantime, you do a lot of site searching, hoping for mages with strengths you don't have. If you find 'em, you don't buy too many (unless, heh! You have a healthy enough income) - just enough for forging, summoning, and remote site finding spells.
That, with no-brainer cookie-cutter dominion for CW, has been enough to let me do very well with CW in general, presuming I don't screw up with getting my pretender killed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Cainehill
June 26th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Double post bug popped up.
And yes - you messed up taking Order-3, it's pointless and counterproductive with CW. Max magic, max luck, and everything else goes to build a better beast of a pretender.
Cainehill
June 29th, 2005, 12:30 AM
What, no comments, Tauren? Were you already using CW somewhat as I describe, and still having no luck, or somewhat different?
Molog
June 29th, 2005, 10:18 AM
How do you use carrion dragon well? Everytime I've tried the carrion dragon it performed rather poorly.
Cainehill
June 29th, 2005, 10:47 AM
200 HP of carnivorous carrion and it didn't perform well??? You simply treat it as you would most SCs - put on a bit of a range of magics, research something along the lines of Enchantment-1 and Alteration-3, park it in the back corner of the battlefield to cast some buffs before it charges into battle. If the paths are low, you might have it in the 2-legged form casting 4 buffs, then changing shape and attacking.
Buffs like fireshield, Breath of Winter, Mistform, Ironskin, Body Ethereal, Personal Luck, Quickness, etc, are all highly recommended depending on the magic you put on the dragon, and depending on what it's going against. Crossbows you might add Air Shield to the list, for example. Another trick is to send a carrion lady along with the dragon to cast carrion regrowth and retreat - that way the dragon gets regeneration. Since the lady retreats, she doesn't die and cause the dragon to retreat.
The_Tauren13
June 29th, 2005, 12:30 PM
The Carrioin Dragon has 80 points per new path, does it not? Are you seriously going to spend 240 points to get water, air, and fire on it?
Thats why I typically went with the naga; I wanted a sturdy chasis with low new magic paths cost (20 points). And it seems to me the only way to properly site search is having all the needed paths on your pretender. The reason I didnt feel the need to get death and nature was because the pans can search those. It seems to me the only reason to get any would be to get it at really high levels, like if you wanted to get like 4-5 nature to cast mother oak immediately.
Your plan doesnt seem to have much of a way to research, which to me is the biggest problem with Pan CW, and why I decided going for specters was the best bet.
I guess I never thought about getting vine ogres. That sounds like a pretty good idea; the vine ogres can stand a hell of a beating while the carrion beasts dish it out.
Cainehill
June 29th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Yes, and you have 425 points to spend once you do CW's scales, even with a healthy 6 dominion. Carrion Woods is almost like Ermor's dying themes : you want the worst scales possibly, with the exceptions of luck and magic, and of course CW is forced to take 1 growth.
That's enough to get Fire-4, 2 of the other 3 elementals at 2, Death 3, and Nature-4, for just one example. You might choose to drop 1 or 2 elements (keeping fire) and take astral instead.
Research : I buy a dryad a turn until the gold runs out, if I don't find sages or some such first. With magic 3, that's 6 research for 110 gold, upkeep of 3.8 or so. If you don't waste gold buying and paying upkeep for a Panic Apostate, you can easily get 1 dryad a turn for most of the first 10 turns. That's 60 research a turn, _and_ your carrion dragon has been adding 20 for at least 5 of those turns. Not great - but adequate for CW Pangaea.
At some time after turn 10, you can be getting revenants for research (6 research per, 9 death gem cost), or save those gems for Conjuration 6, when you note the superior spectres, as well as lamia queens. Another option is to get some Carrion Ladies to do some research early on, and to ferry carrion / guard temples later.
Things are a bit tougher if you aren't using Zen's mods, since the balance mod actually makes Luck a good thing (most of the time) - without it, way too many of your events are outright bad, or crappy "good" - like getting militia. With the mod, Turmoil 3 / Luck 3 can wind up giving a _lot_ of gold. The test I just ran while writing this, buying a dryad per turn, at turn 11 I have 876 gold left, 30+ elemental gems, a magic item, and I haven't bothered to take a province yet, which would have given better gold income and possibly gem income or better researchers.
And yes - being able to cast Mother Oak immediately (or almost immediately, adding Const-2 for the Thistle Mace) is a good thing with Carrion Woods, considering that your nature income is the constraining factor for building your carrion hordes. If you concentrate solely on alteration at first, you can cast it between turn 10-14, at which point you can get an extra Carrion Lord every 2.5 turns, compared to one every 3.8 turns on the base nature income. That's over doubling your accumulation of carrion lords, thus essentially also doubling your carrion growth.
As far as using Panic Apostates to search for nature & death : one Apostate costs more than 3 dryads, delivering 10 research vice 18 research for over twice the gold upkeep - and if you use it for site searching, you aren't getting the research, which you say "is the biggest problem with Pan CW" : of course it is, if you're using so much gold for site searching while still missing a good chunk of the best death/nature sites.
The_Tauren13
June 29th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Hmm... that bit about the site searching makes sense. So, how much death would you suggest getting on my pretender? Lets say I still go with the naga, and get F3A3W3E3N5. I guess you would need at least death 3, but is there much reason to get more? Im left with 132 points which is exactly enough to get death 5, but is there much of a reason for that?
Cainehill
June 29th, 2005, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't go death 5 on something that didn't start with it, no. Unless you have a long range plan for high-death summonings / globals, D3 or D4 would be fine (especially since the naga can easily get +2 death). Similarly, N5 might be a bit too expensive, considering that Construction-2 and 10 nature gems gets you N5 for Mother Oak / Gift of Health / etc. Or are you switching to the green naga? The golden naga I'd go F4 or F5 and lower the nature a bit. (And I wouldn't take the green, because then heat-3 may cause problems with fatigue - cold with either would be suicidal.)
Molog
June 30th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Here's a link to a strategy for Carrion Woods i came up that I posted on other forum.
link (http://www.the-battlefield.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=426&st=0&#entry2582)
There are some useful ideas in the discussion here.
The_Tauren13
June 30th, 2005, 07:51 PM
Yeah thats what I was thinking about the death magic.
The Golden Naga allows you to easily go heat 3, so I was going to stick with it. That means I could get a higher fire level, but why exactly? What would you use it for?
Cainehill
June 30th, 2005, 11:20 PM
IMO you want Fire-4 for site searching, first and foremost - fire gems do a lot to fix CW's gold income or lack thereof. Then you can get some summonings you otherwise couldn't easily get, possibly a couple forgings, and you have the option to act as an artillery platform, since with Phoenix power and 3 non-artifact boosters you hit F8. That's some serious firepower you wind up having available for the endgame.
And, of course - every point in Fire magic makes the fire shield more powerful, aiding in the early expansion.
The_Tauren13
June 30th, 2005, 11:42 PM
I guess I never really thought about alchemizing. Thats probably a great way to actually make some money, and the guy in that link Molog posted had a really good idea: fever fettishes. If you get a hefty fire gem income, who cares if your population dies off, you could still support a bunch of mages with alchemy.
Wait, what are those '3 non-artifact boosters' you mentioned? Other battle spells? I guess fire magic is always good for dishing out massive damage... and would definitely make earlier expansion easier. The thing is, level 4 sites are really few and uncommon, so I didnt think it was worth it just for the site searching.
Cainehill
July 1st, 2005, 01:25 AM
3 non-artifact booster : the flame helmet, the fiery skull (only requires 1F and 1D) and a staff of elemental mastery. The first two are dead easy, as long as you acquire any amount of fire gem income, and your pretender can forge the last as well. (There's also Robe of the Magi and Ring of Wizardry, but those tend not to be easily obtainable by Pangaea of any flavor.) If you only have 2 of those, that raises you to 6, and Phoenix power gives 7 - that's a lot of devastation you can cast without too much fatigue.
And sure, the level 4 sites are few and far between - but they also tend to be better, and you really do want all the fire income you can get. Once again - if fire didn't tend to also be so handy on the battlefield, I might not recommend taking it to 4 - water and air, by comparison, have relatively little reason to take past 2 or 3 imo.
vBulletin® v3.8.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.