More Tien Chi !

[Bummer_Duck]

Hi

I thought I saw a post about a specific mod for Tien Chi...but I can't seem to find it. All I can dig up is a replacement orc nation for Tien chi, a japanese feudal mod, and black Moon. Perhaps I was mistaken? or is there a mod out there?

On the same topic, I understand Tien Chi sentiment is that it is a weak nation, even the SA variant. So, if it is that bad, why hasn't it been altered by Illwinter? It could really use Longbow men... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Bummer_Duck said:
Hi

I thought I saw a post about a specific mod for Tien Chi...but I can't seem to find it. All I can dig up is a replacement orc nation for Tien chi, a japanese feudal mod, and black Moon. Perhaps I was mistaken? or is there a mod out there?


Probably not what you are looking for, but I have a mod improving barbarian kings at Arryn's site (http://www.dominions-2.org/files.htm).

[PDF]

About TC weakness : even with LBowmen basic TC and BK would be weak, because of their limited and bad mages...

[Olive]

A cool mod for BK may be a nation with only mounted units (included mages).

[Bummer_Duck]

quantum_mechani said:


Probably not what you are looking for, but I have a mod improving barbarian kings at Arryn's site (http://www.dominions-2.org/files.htm).

[/quote]

Oh, is that the "Quantum Barbarians mod"? I saw that, but didn't put the 2 together...Might be nice if there was something there that explained it was for TC Barbarian Kings.

Not exactly what I was looking for, but I'll check it out.

Thanks!

[Endoperez]

There is Japan-inspired nation (Ashikaga), that replaces Vanheim, I think. When it came out, there was some Tien Chi mod that was suppposed to bring out Mythical China of the same era. It was Kami, I think. It wasn't very balanced. It had some interesting ideas, like Shrines as linked-random holy magical personification of something or other, with four swordsmen carrying and guarding it. It also had Chinese dragons as mages, but they weren't priced for their combat-worthyness and one could just sweep the world with them as SCs.

[Ironhawk]

I thought the problem with Tien Chi was the double whammy of so-so mages and enforced bad scales

[Bummer_Duck]

Ironhawk said:
I thought the problem with Tien Chi was the double whammy of so-so mages and enforced bad scales



I've been playing around with SA. The bad scales ain't to bad considering that the DOHF/DOHR's have no maintenence (I think) and the mages are sacred. Also, in my tests it is very easy to find most magic sites with a MOTFE in a random of death. One mage can search 6 areas of level 1, and holy 2. I believe the vast majority of sites are level 1, aren't they? Sure seems that way... Anyway, it seems that if you can survive the inevitable initial onslaught, summons may make up for some of the deficiences...

The biggest issue I haven't been able to crack is bootstrapping a couple of decent armies to take indies fast. The only other nation I have played, Vanheim, is laughably easier. In my last MP game, I was able to take 10 provinces in 10 turns, and they were very tough provinces (talking high pop, lots of HI, HC, Knights, etc).

My best SA testbed so far, I was able to grab 15 provinces by turn 20. BUT, I started in a *very* poor area, with most provinces having less than 10 gold inc. Subseqently, the indy armies were small, even at the standard str of 6. For kicks, I used one off the armies I had been expanding with to attack what I would consider a 'normal' indy with HI and HC on turn 22. I lost everything. I 'know' one of my Van armies would have defeated the same opponet handily.

[PvK]

I don't think standard TC needs longbows. They have a very nice array of light and heavy composite bow archers and crossbowmen. Maybe if all their troops were cheaper, it might help a little.

PvK

[TheSelfishGene]

Tien Chi vanilla can do alright in the early game if you can stomach taking some Productivity scales. Like Arco or Pythium they need time to build an effective standard army, and time is (it seems) the commodity in shortest supply in Dom2. A Crossbow front screened by Imperial Spearmen does quite well against basically everything - Composite Bowmen only work better against Barbs and Blowpipe provinces. If you can throw in some of their great cheap cavalry as a flanking force. Build the cheaper Pikemen if your expecting a Knight province to soak up the lances (although militia, if available, work even better obviously).

I like to take a Dragon with Tien Chi, as its somewhat thematic and gives you a way to knock out Indies reliably in the early game as well as be able to cast the occasional global, and not too expensive; and Tien Chi are the only other nation that has a chance of getting a healer naturally so you need not lose the casting ability of the Dragon permanently to bad luck. Natas are better overall but take longer (imo) to get up to speed. Fire Dragons can be taking Indies from the moment they research Fire Shield.

[RibbonBlue]

One thing I dislike about tien chi, is there magic is erratic, there is no obivus path to research.
With races like abysia,atlantis,ryleh,pyth,caelum,man,pan... and many other races you know what type of magic to get at the start of the game.

[PDF]

RibbonBlue said:
One thing I dislike about tien chi, is there magic is erratic, there is no obivus path to research.
With races like abysia,atlantis,ryleh,pyth,caelum,man,pan... and many other races you know what type of magic to get at the start of the game.



That's not necessarily a real issue : for example Arco is also "erratic". But *all* Arco mages are rather good, whereas *all* base TC mages aren't : they're weak in all paths...
OTOH standard TC human troops are not that bad - not worst than Marignon's .. except TC has no sacred troops ! Always subpar ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
In the only PBEM I've played with TC (BK !) early expansion was rather standard : however after that I clashed with Caelum, who annihilated by cavalry armies quite easily with his Seraphs, and my mages were pretty useless. And it was on hard research, limiting my disadvantages !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Truper]

RibbonBlue said:
One thing I dislike about tien chi, is there magic is erratic, there is no obivus path to research.
With races like abysia,atlantis,ryleh,pyth,caelum,man,pan... and many other races you know what type of magic to get at the start of the game.



You could call it erratic, or you could call it... flexible! For myself, I prefer to start with evocation, for all those amusing spells like Sulphur Haze that no one else can cast.

[RibbonBlue]

With arco though, you know you can start with thaum magic, and cast paralyze, while if you are playing tien chi you do not know that.

[Endoperez]

However, with Tien Chi your Celestial Master can cast Acid Bolt after Evocation 3, one level lower than Paralyze, and of school that offers Master with lucky randoms the spells they need to excel. That mightn't be as much as the elemental excellensy of Arcos, but that is something.

Which magic would suit them better, in your opinion? If I did a small mod, what should I change? Celestial Master to FAEWW? with no Astral, cabable of casting (automatically) Magma Bolts, Iron/Steel skin, cabable of getting E2 -> Earth Boots -> Dwarven Hammer? He would lose his Magic Duel suspectibility, but also the option of casting Power of the Spheres. What about making Master of the Way to S? instead of W?, giving Tien Chi lots of low-Astral fodder to use as Magic Duel bait and as communion slaves, instead?

Of course, I would change the starting spells too.

[Zooko]

I'm playing Tien Chi right now in a multiplayer game (two vs. two), and I'm really enjoying it. It's an interesting challenge. I don't want to say too much, since we've just had our first clash with the enemy and I'm afraid enemy scouts might have penetrated even into this thread.

[Zooko]

Well, I suppose the enemy has already noticed that I am playing the Spring and Autumn variant, and that my sacred troops get +4 protection, +4 reinvigoration, quickness, and +4 defense. And that Lu Tung-Pin the Immortal is my prophet.

So far it has been shown that a horde of Jaguar Warriors with Fire-9, Water-9 blessing are better than a horde of Flagellants with Earth-9, Water-9, especially if the Fire-9 Pretender throws fire darts at the Flagellants.

On the other hand, said Pretender took two nasty battle wounds from Tien Chi archers and Hoburg crossbowmen -- Chest Wound and Never Healing Wound...

[RibbonBlue]

Ouch

[RibbonBlue]

I feel like Tien Chi S+A is a really powerful race. And that it has some undiscovereved tactic that no one knows, but this tactic makes it better in equal hands then any other nation.

[Zooko]

Well I hope I figure it out soon. ;-)

Any suggestions would be appreciated. My ally is Marignon and my enemies are R'lyeh and Mictlan. As mentioned, Mictlan is a double-blessed race, with a Golden Naga with 9 Fire and 9 Water magic.

I will happily report what I learn after the information is no longer a military secret...

[Bummer_Duck]

Endoperez said:
Which magic would suit them better, in your opinion? If I did a small mod, what should I change? Celestial Master to FAEWW? with no Astral, cabable of casting (automatically) Magma Bolts, Iron/Steel skin, cabable of getting E2 -> Earth Boots -> Dwarven Hammer?




That wouldn't be bad... With a master/slave items and Earth boots, you could at least cast Blade wind. However, I'm not sure how valuable this would be for early expansion. The real issue I have is with SA. I love the concept of diversified mages and early gem income, but if you can't take any provinces you lose badly. I Can't figure out a good way to expand with the national troops SA gets. It was either poorly thought out, or I am doing something wrong. I think SA should have Cheap Crossbowman, or Longbowman.

Maybe some could suggest a different strategy? So far, I have been unable to expand very fast. I can't afford enough HI, even though the guide by Zen says you should buy a couple a turn. I have better luck with archers combined with a combat pretender attacking after turn 5 (researhing to Alt 3). I have been using a Jade Emp, that casts Quickness, Ethereal, Mistform, and Luck (Astral Shield and Astral weapon later on). However, without at least 30 Archers, the pretender seems to die... Running against HI/HC is pure suicide, as the archers do nothing other than die badly along side the Pretender. So, if this nation starts in a rich neighborhood, I lose every time. Wah!



He would lose his Magic Duel suspectibility, but also the option of casting Power of the Spheres. What about making Master of the Way to S? instead of W?, giving Tien Chi lots of low-Astral fodder to use as Magic Duel bait and as communion slaves, instead?



Now that is a truly good idea!

I have never tried it, but can you give a Crystal Matrix thing to one mage, and cast Communion Slave on the others? Can you mix and match the various communion/slave items and spells? How about the blood variety?



Of course, I would change the starting spells too.


Maybe something useful for taking provinces? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ironhawk]

One tactic I had some fun with as TC was with Wands of Acid or whatever they are called. You get one of your Celestial Masters, give him a hammer and just bang them out. Then you recruit Masters of the Way and hand them a wand when they walk out of the recruitment office. Script them to quickness/acidboltx5.

On a side note aboug TC magic, I usually go straight up Evoc. Acid Bolt/Acid Rain are a little lower level than thier counterparts and just as (and sometimes more) effective.

[Endoperez]

Bummer_Duck said:
Endoperez said:
Celestial Master to FAEWW? with no Astral




That wouldn't be bad... With a master/slave items and Earth boots, you could at least cast Blade wind. However, I'm not sure how valuable this would be for early expansion. The real issue I have is with SA. I love the concept of diversified mages and early gem income, but if you can't take any provinces you lose badly. I Can't figure out a good way to expand with the national troops SA gets. It was either poorly thought out, or I am doing something wrong. I think SA should have Cheap Crossbowman, or Longbowman.




Okay, I think I can change Tien Chi units around so that one of those shared by both base and S&A will be the cheap crossbow, and S&A loses access to different unit. I can probably do it without affecting Barbarian Kings, but I don't think that would a big problem with a mod anyway.






What about making Master of the Way to S? instead of W?, giving Tien Chi lots of low-Astral fodder to use as Magic Duel bait and as communion slaves, instead?



Now that is a truly good idea!

I have never tried it, but can you give a Crystal Matrix thing to one mage, and cast Communion Slave on the others? Can you mix and match the various communion/slave items and spells? How about the blood variety?



As I understand, all of them work with each other.
I will probably do this or change/give them sorcery random.





Of course, I would change the starting spells too.


Maybe something useful for taking provinces? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I meant the summoning spells. Currently they need Astral, which is the Celestial magic even though no one in Tien Chi seems to be very good in its use.

Besides, before I finish my dream project, it won't be possible to add starting spells without removing it from the research list.

I am thinking of giving the Master of the Way $ (sorcery random) instead of sraight S. If I incorporated the changes of Sabbath Mod(Sabbath Master/Slave fatique cost down, so no slave needed) or if this mod was to be used with one of the mods changing that (mainly Zen's spell mod, if it does this), half of the Masters would be communable. I don't think water/sorcery would be very useful, so I would have to change that pick, too. Maybe # and $ randoms (elemental and sorcery, as with S&A Celestial Masters). If I were to go with S? route, Celestial Masters would get better with Astral.

What would be useful, but not overpowering magic for Celestial Masters? I'm thinking of taking away some regular magic of CM and giving them #$ randoms (base) or #$? (S&A). This would give them very nice random power. Is Air important for base Tien Chi, thematically or gameplay-wise? I am thinking of WWEF#$ base (Acid, Magma, Rust, ) and WWAF#$? for S&A (Acid and lots of general power for CM, possibility for Air 3, changing E to A to keep Mot5E only sure Magma Bolters). I would probably calculate the cost following one of the Universal Dominions Unit Pricing Theories the scientific minds threw around here some time ago.

I would like to get this playtested after I put this together. Any #dominions regulars in here? Would you care to Blitz with possibly unbalanced Tien Chi? Should I make a poll out of this to get opinion of more forumites?

[Zooko]

Not to discourage you, but personally I'm perfectly happy with the current T'ien Ch'i. Maybe I'll feel differently after my current multiplayer game comes to an end.

[Endoperez]

I understand that many people are happy with Tien Chi as-is. I am one of those. However, today was my last exam for this spring, and I only have to show up on Friday. I would like to get back to modding/programming business with something easy, and I got carried away by this Tien Chi discussion. Besides, I would like to know what can be done to make Tien Chi more competitive.

If I won't get too much discussion here, I'll put together that poll, and ask some general questions about usefulness of Tien Chi with it.