Gem-generating globals

[magnate]

Not sure if I'm being thick, or whether there isn't a global enchantment that produces nature gems. I've found the following:

Gale Gate (Thaum 8, Air 5, cost 60 air) - 20 air gems/turn
Eternal Pyre (Ench 6, Fire 6, cost 80 fire) - 20 fire gems/turn
Stellar Focus (Ench 7, Astral 5, cost 30 astral) - 5 astral pearls/turn
Earth Blood Deep Well (Ench 7, Earth 6, cost 80 earth) - "lots" of earth gems/turn
Maelstrom (Evoc 8, Water 6, cost 80 water) - "huge numbers" of water gems/turn
Well Of Misery (Conj 8, Death 6, cost 80 death) - "truckloads" of death gems/turn

... but I can't find anything for nature gems (or blood slaves, natch). Am I missing something?

Also, does anyone know the "huge" numbers for the last three listed? Are they all 20?

TIA,

CC

[Turin]

mother oak alteration 5 10/turn

[Alneyan]

The last three enchantments give 20 gems per turn.

[PDF]

BTW, why has Nature such a crappy Gem-generating global ? At 50 gems for 5/turn I don't find the deal very interesting : early in the game you'd rather have those 50 gems now, and later the additional +5 isn't that sexy ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Alneyan]

It's 10 per turn, not 5: aren't you thinking of Astral? (5 per turn for 30 gems, which doesn't sound all that great to me)

[PDF]

Alneyan said:
It's 10 per turn, not 5: aren't you thinking of Astral? (5 per turn for 30 gems, which doesn't sound all that great to me)



Damned ! Mothar Oak yields 10/turn ?? Thanks a lot ! I was *sure* it was 5 (as Astral, just more expensive..) and didn't cast it in my recent games due to that !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[CUnknown]

Stellar Focus is great, because it's undispelable! It costs 30 gems, gives you 5 right away, and to dispel it it would cost another 30! There's no reason to dispel it, so it's permanent income for you.

[Alneyan]

Stellar Focus can be overwritten by virtually any other enchantment however, unless you feel like putting extra gems when casting it (and quite a few of those too).

[sushiboat]

The problem with the gem globals is that if you have enough of a particular kind of gem to cast its global, you probably already have a good income of that gem kind. If I have an income of 1 or 2 -- i.e., when a gem-generating spell would help me the most -- the global is much too expensive. Also, most of the gem globals become available at the same time as the other expensive spells I would like to cast. Mother Oak is the exception. Add to these drawbacks the fact that spending the gems for globals does not have guaranteed effects or duration. You could be throwing your gems away, or the global might be cast and then soon replaced or dispelled.

[Nerfix]

Doesn't Well of Misery have the other good effects too?

[HotNifeThruButr]

Well of Misery gives additional income in all provinces. I don't think it's much of an advantage since *everyone* benefits... or am I hallucinating and have it all wrong?

[Cainehill]

I've done Mother Oak with an income of 2 nature, and the Eternal Pyre with 6 or less income. Just a matter of saving them up towards that goal, vice using them up via forging or summoning. Note that it's also possible to trade gems with other human players - I got a particular kick two weekends ago in a blitz when I used nature gems from the person who had Mother Oak up to cast my own. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ( 4 players - I also traded for about 35 more nature from the other two players. )

And I disagree about them not being worthwhile just because you have a high income already. Okay - an extra 10 nature isn't much if you already have 30+, but on a smallish map they're awesome. And you can always put enough gems in to make it unlikely someone else will be able to dispel or override yours - which means that they've wasted their own gems.

Mother Oak means being able to summon 2 extra castings of lamias a turn, or an extra carrion lord every 3 turns as CW Pangaea. True, it might not stay up long - but if Pangaea and Man aren't in the game, it has a fair chance of staying up.

Eternal Pyre : 20 extra fire gems a turn means ... 300 extra gold a turn, more if you have an alchemist or the alchemist's stone. Or more items, more summonings, etc.

And again - if you're not playing on a huge map, you have a good chance of it staying up a while, and of being able to gauge how likely it is to stay up.

[Cainehill]

CUnknown said:
Stellar Focus is great, because it's undispelable! It costs 30 gems, gives you 5 right away, and to dispel it it would cost another 30! There's no reason to dispel it, so it's permanent income for you.



Eh - if someone else dispels it right away, it just cost you 25 gems. Sure, it cost them more - but it still hurts you, and if they have plenty of astral gems lying about they might well do so, simply to deny you the income. Or, even more likely, they might cast their own Stellar Focus over the top of yours.

Not to mention that as someone else mentioned, if you cast it with 30 gems, yours is going to be the very first overwritten when all the global spots are taken.

[Huzurdaddi]

Cainehill said:
Not to mention that as someone else mentioned, if you cast it with 30 gems, yours is going to be the very first overwritten when all the global spots are taken.



Hun? I did not think it worked that way. I thought that the spell which is overridden is picked randomly and then the overriding dice are cast.

It also seem to play out that way in games I have been in.

[Turin]

It definitely is random. In one game I had cast a arcane nexus with 999 gems added and a few other globals with 20-40 extra gems. Next turn I cast purgatory with 999 gems added and it killed the nexus.

[Cainehill]

Still - if the other globals have 200 gems in them, and someone is trying to cast a global using 100 - the only one that can be overridden is the one that was cast with 30 gems.

[FrankTrollman]

It's not random. At least, it doesn't have to be. If all five slots are filled and someone casts a new global, the check goes in order:

1. If there is another global enchantment that costs the same type of gems, it fights that one.
2. If there isn't one, then it is random.

So if someone casts Wrath of God, or the Arcane Nexus, or Strands of Arcane Power, your Stellar Brilliance goes away forever and is not missed. If noone casts one of those spells, then Stellar Brilliance may well hold on like grim death. Indeed, noone can shove it aside with The Gift of Health so long as The Mother Oak is in play, since the best GoH can do is kill the Oak...

-Frank

[CUnknown]

No one in their right mind would dispel a stellar focus. Spend 30 gems to deny your opponent 25? If you can't think of a more cost-effective way to spend gems than that, you're probably in trouble. Or massively in the lead I guess.

[magnate]

That's true, and you can get Stellar Focus up a LOT quicker than most globals. So even if it's the first to go once all the slots are filled, it still gets you income for all the time it takes to fill all the other slots, which is probably more than the six turns it takes to pay for itself.

CC

[FrankTrollman]

That's true, and you can get Stellar Focus up a LOT quicker than most globals.



Um... no. It's enchantment 7. That means that at the very least you would be able to first put up The Gift of Health, The Eyes of God, and Riches from Beneath.

Research is in general much more of a limiting factor than gem cost. It takes 420 research points on normal research to get from Enchantment 6 to Enchantment 7. The chances of neither you nor anyone else having filled up the Globals meter is certainly there, but not worth chasing after.

-Frank

[Cainehill]

Heh. For once I agree with Mr Trollman. Saying that Stellar Focus goes up quicker than most is terribly out of whack with reality, imo.

The main global that goes up early is Mother Oak, which can be put up as early as turn 12 or 14, depending on nation and pretender - possibly 10 or 11 for Pangaea.

Research is a limitation - the first, crucial one. After that, magic path cost - most globals can't be put up without path-boosters unless a pretender was designed to cast it. And only after that is gem cost a real limitation.

[magnate]

Er, yes. Sorry. I forgot about the research.

[fx: removes head from own arse]