obat28 Netherlands

[Mobhack]

Updated 01/06/05

Initial modified Netherlands OOB now attached.

tanks
leo 2 - earler Leo 2 A1 added (No 83) - formations were OK but the early Leo2 was not present.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/fennek/
Fennecks - ISD was 2004, some early ones at this date (specific scout formation is 2006)
- the remote control 12.7 gun is an autocannon, so can fire AAA at helos while supressed
- scout versions have 4 carry to carry scouts
- fenneck MRAT, does not fire the weapon, is ground fired - changed to a carrier only
- 262 - added FOO version with GSR (pic on that page at top)

56 - YPR 765 PRI replaces lynx scout vehicle later (has TI as scout version)
(lynx with normal scouts left in the OOB)

104 - YPR765/radar - own class - recce vehicle with GSR for the specific formation

204-8 increased to 5 men, to flesh out the mech inf platoons a bit. Should fit all year's mech inf
, for all section No 3's (usually AT weapon(s) + 1 of these, or MG/AT+1 off)
217 - end date was before start - is a dupe of 208, added a 7,62 MAG as per posts from the forum,
as an optional coice btween it and 208 (minimi) AT-4 to 3 per posts.

295 - YPR 765 PRI - for some scout formations, replaces lynx-25 from 96

410-414 - mech scouts for cavalry formations, have AT weapon and lmg.

420 - YPR-765 MRAT - carries 2 MRAT teams - own class and own formations

Formations
141 - removed the SPAAA
142 66-82 Armoured recce platoon (2nd rate coy) per notes on the forum - 2 light tanks
146 78-82 as 142 with 2 medium tank section
150 - replaced original (in case of pick list problems) - detachment 1 vehicle+1 mech scout team
155 - as 146, but later 83-95, with medium tanks, (to ensure no gap in pick list)
165 - as 155 - but with section of 2 MBT
169 - Armour recce platoon 96-105 per notes on forum (YPR-based)
177 - fennek based armour recce platoon, 106=2020
207 - mech recce (with a special GSR vehicle at CHQ) - from forum notes - 78-95

236 - the fennek recce section
237 - the lynx/YPR recce section
238 - infantry section (2 mech scout teams) for the armoured recce platoons

241 - Mech inf co with MRAT ATGM platoon instead of SP-ATGM platoon 2006-2020

245 - fenneck MRAT platoon
246 - YPR MRAT platoon

249 - fennek MRAT section, 1 per vehicle
250 - YPR MRAT section - 2 launchers per vehicle

rifle, engineer, marine platoons - to 4 sections per platoon from 3.
Rifle platoons 3 rifle sections + an inf-AT, from 80+ they get an inf-ATGM as well.

3 dragons copied from inf-ATGM to inf-AT class (rifle platoon can therefore buy an AT-4 and a dragon team,
or 2 of dragon - but different class http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Mech coys with an attached SP-ATGM platoon - changed to a SP_ATGM platoon

257/258 - per forum notes 2 Lt tank and 2 AMX-TOW per platoon.
original AMX-13 coy/pl to 4 tank platoons, not 5

187 - motor rifle coy with fenneck motor MRAT - a platoon of 4 + section of 2 as fulll 12 unit platoon
(6 launchers and 6 fennecks) will not fit the 10 unit platoon limit.

MRAT/SPIKE/GILL - all the same missile in different sizes (ranges).
dragon replacement - MR (50 hexes)
TOW replacment - LR (80) hexes
helos - ER (160) hexes

[Jaws43]

Hello here I have my remarks, based on my own experience and duty in several units. I'm a senior Cavalry NCO in the Dutch army and serve since 1981.

Leopard 2A4 start serving at 1 July 1983 at 41 and 43 tank battalion.At 1 january 1984 at 103 armoured recon batalion.
At this moment in the orbat the Leopard started serving since 1995??

Dutch recon units since 1966.

Recon platoons in a armoured Squadron (Eskadron) and Battalion.
A Recce platoon consist
1966 until 1975
5x M113 C&R with .50 call MG (2 sections of 2 and 1 platoon commander),
2x Tank started with AMX 13/75 in 1966 and ended with Leopard 1 in 1975 (normal updates were placed like the AMX 13/90),
1 M113 with a infantry squad and
1x mortar vehicle.

1975 until 1995.
5x M113 C&R with 25MM canon Oerlikon (crew had 3x LAW, 1x MAG 7.62mm (1 per section) and 3x UZI 9mm, 6 hand grenades and a signal weapon,
2x Tank started with Leopard 1 in 1975 and ended with Leopard 2A4 in1995 (No updates were made only in 1990 to Leopard 2 A4A1,
1x M113 with infantry squad (1x MAG 7,62mm, 1x Garl Gustaf, 3x LAW, 9x FAL FN 7,62mm) and
1x M106A1 (Crew of 6 man with FAL 7,62mm). (M106 was removed in 1990)

From 1995 until 2006

7x YPR 765 PRI (3 sections of 2 and 1 platoon commander) (3x weapon Dymaco C8 per vehicle and a MAG 7.62mm in each section)

2006 until….
8x Fenneck LVB (Licht verkennings en bewakingsvoertuig) Light recon and surveillance vehicle) With a BAA head with terminal sight and laser. Further a .50 MG last generation, Squar radar per section, and 3x Panzerfaust latest generation with night vision per vehicle. Each man carries a Dymaco C8 and each commander also a clock.

Then we have a mechanized recce platoons (tank and infantry battalions had them) from 1978 until 1995.
5x YPR 765 CO with .50 cal,
1x YPR with RADAR,
1x Landrover,

Now I go to the Squadrons (Eskadrons)
1966 until 1995
3x Recce platoon and 2x RADAR (RADAR removed in 1990)

And the battalion
3x Recce Squadron and 1 Support squadron.

If you have any questions pleas ask.

Regards.

[Mobhack]

Question re the fennecks - if they have TI already, there may well not be any point in adding ground surveillance radar in game terms. (in real life the GSR has some advantages in certain weather conditions, but the SP system does not have weather rules as such).

or - is the GSR a ground mount used by the dismounts? - if so, it can be added to a scout team.

Cheers
Andy

[PlasmaKrab]

Mobhack said:
Question re the fennecks - if they have TI already, there may well not be any point in adding ground surveillance radar in game terms. (in real life the GSR has some advantages in certain weather conditions, but the SP system does not have weather rules as such).

or - is the GSR a ground mount used by the dismounts? - if so, it can be added to a scout team.

Cheers
Andy



Isn't a GSR supposed to have even better vision rate, like 60 or more?
I know there is no real qualitative difference (maybe there could be? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but if a vehice has TI and GSR, i think the higher should prevail, provided it can be used anytime, including on the move. Otherwise it is just spotting ability, or in the best case dismount radar.

BTW, why are there so few GSR teams couting as such in the OOBs? Like scout teams, as you said, or OP teams following radar type and comm.

Regards,

Plasma

[PlasmaKrab]

Oh, and a wholly other question for Jaws43:

Have you any info about the Fennek MRAT?

I know it is supposed to fire Gill ATGMs, but is it just dismount transport, or pintle mount, or a special turret? Or has the program been cancelled altogether?
I found nearly no info on this variant, and since I ahave done new icons for the recon, utility and FO versions I would have liked to add this one too.

Thanks for any info,

Plasma

[Mobhack]

PlasmaKrab said:

Mobhack said:
Question re the fennecks - if they have TI already, there may well not be any point in adding ground surveillance radar in game terms. (in real life the GSR has some advantages in certain weather conditions, but the SP system does not have weather rules as such).

or - is the GSR a ground mount used by the dismounts? - if so, it can be added to a scout team.

Cheers
Andy



Isn't a GSR supposed to have even better vision rate, like 60 or more?
I know there is no real qualitative difference (maybe there could be? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but if a vehice has TI and GSR, i think the higher should prevail, provided it can be used anytime, including on the move. Otherwise it is just spotting ability, or in the best case dismount radar.

BTW, why are there so few GSR teams couting as such in the OOBs? Like scout teams, as you said, or OP teams following radar type and comm.

Regards,

Plasma



Some GSR are only vision 50.

There are several AOP teams with GSR, usually slower as thay have to carry the kit.

Scouts with a GSR kit would need to be slowed down too, so not very useful. Plus in modern times they usually can have a TI sight of 40 which is more useful in game terms, especially as the mobility needs no reduction.

Cheers
andy

[Jaws43]

PlasmaKrab said:
Oh, and a wholly other question for Jaws43:

Have you any info about the Fennek MRAT?

I know it is supposed to fire Gill ATGMs, but is it just dismount transport, or pintle mount, or a special turret? Or has the program been cancelled altogether?
I found nearly no info on this variant, and since I ahave done new icons for the recon, utility and FO versions I would have liked to add this one too.

Thanks for any info,

Plasma



it will be 5 dismounted Gills.

Cheers

[TheDesertFox]

Jaws43 said:
Leopard 2A4 start serving at 1 July 1983 at 41 and 43 tank battalion.At 1 january 1984 at 103 armoured recon batalion.



Jaws,

are you sure it wasn´t the 2A1 which was introduced 83 ? I´m asking because the fourth batch build by MAK and Krauss-Maffei between Dec 85 - March 78 were the first 2A4s (370 vehicles). All vehicles build before 85 were 2A1s and 2A3s and were later retrofitted to 2A4 standards.

BTW: this retrofitting programm lasted until the mid 90s when it was finally complete. I was in Castle-Martin, Wales (battle range - life firing 2A4s) in 91 and 95 were we met some dutch guys who were just making themselves comfortable with the "new" 2A4 hardware. I´m a former german Leo2 guy btw.

If you can dig deeper into this issue and find out when exactly 2A1s first appeared in the dutch army and when they were replaced by 2A4s it will really be appreciated.


Jaws43 said:
At this moment in the orbat the Leopard started serving since 1995??




Certainly this needs to be looked at.

Thanks for your informative post.

cheers

Helge

[Jaws43]

Oh I forgot,


A Squadron from
1995 until 2006,
2x recce platoon,
1x infantry platoon of 4x YPR as infantry units

From 2006 until...
3x recce platoon fenneck,
1x MRAT platoon fenneck

[PlasmaKrab]

TheDesertFox said:
are you sure it wasn´t the 2A1 which was introduced 83 ? I´m asking because the fourth batch build by MAK and Krauss-Maffei between Dec 85 - March 78 were the first 2A4s (370 vehicles). All vehicles build before 85 were 2A1s and 2A3s and were later retrofitted to 2A4 standards.




At least for that I can trust the little info I have.

The main batch of Dutch Leo2 (445, of which 278 from Krauss-Maffei and 167 from MaK) has been delivered between 1982 and 1986.
They were termed Leopard 1 NL, am I right? I am not sure of any mention of a 2Ax version.
Anyway, they were Leopard 2A1 with some minor differences, like domestic AAMG (Mag58), smokepots, radio and pilot's vision blocks.

I have no info about when or how they were brought to A4 standard.
Anyway the first batch of German A4 in 1985 had only better FC with digital calculator, only later came better armor (batch 6, 1988-1989)

Cheers guys

Plasma

[Jaws43]

PlasmaKrab said:

TheDesertFox said:
are you sure it wasn´t the 2A1 which was introduced 83 ? I´m asking because the fourth batch build by MAK and Krauss-Maffei between Dec 85 - March 78 were the first 2A4s (370 vehicles). All vehicles build before 85 were 2A1s and 2A3s and were later retrofitted to 2A4 standards.




At least for that I can trust the little info I have.

The main batch of Dutch Leo2 (445, of which 278 from Krauss-Maffei and 167 from MaK) has been delivered between 1982 and 1986.
They were termed Leopard 1 NL, am I right? I am not sure of any mention of a 2Ax version.
Anyway, they were Leopard 2A1 with some minor differences, like domestic AAMG (Mag58), smokepots, radio and pilot's vision blocks.

I have no info about when or how they were brought to A4 standard.
Anyway the first batch of German A4 in 1985 had only better FC with digital calculator, only later came better armor (batch 6, 1988-1989)

Cheers guys

Plasma



Indeed it was the Leopard 2 NL. I know we got a update in 1989 or 1990.. I was Platoon commander at that time from a Recce platoon. I thought it was the Leopard 2 A4A1 (NL) The A4 must be updated between 1985 and 1987.. in that period I had no function on a Leopard 2.

[Jaws43]

TheDesertFox said:

Jaws43 said:
Leopard 2A4 start serving at 1 July 1983 at 41 and 43 tank battalion.At 1 january 1984 at 103 armoured recon batalion.



Jaws,

are you sure it wasn´t the 2A1 which was introduced 83 ? I´m asking because the fourth batch build by MAK and Krauss-Maffei between Dec 85 - March 78 were the first 2A4s (370 vehicles). All vehicles build before 85 were 2A1s and 2A3s and were later retrofitted to 2A4 standards.

BTW: this retrofitting programm lasted until the mid 90s when it was finally complete. I was in Castle-Martin, Wales (battle range - life firing 2A4s) in 91 and 95 were we met some dutch guys who were just making themselves comfortable with the "new" 2A4 hardware. I´m a former german Leo2 guy btw.

If you can dig deeper into this issue and find out when exactly 2A1s first appeared in the dutch army and when they were replaced by 2A4s it will really be appreciated.


Jaws43 said:
At this moment in the orbat the Leopard started serving since 1995??




Certainly this needs to be looked at.

Thanks for your informative post.

cheers

Helge



Thanks. About Leopard 2 A4 see post above

[PlasmaKrab]

Jaws43 said:
Indeed it was the Leopard 2 NL. I know we got a update in 1989 or 1990.. I was Platoon commander at that time from a Recce platoon. I thought it was the Leopard 2 A4A1 (NL) The A4 must be updated between 1985 and 1987.. in that period I had no function on a Leopard 2.



Leopard2A4A1 NL?

You mean upgraded once in 1985-87 along with the first German A4 batch, then once again in 1989-90 to A4A1?

I hadn't seen this AxAy thing since, well, Leo1!

Anyway, the last Leo2NL were delivered in 1986. So, upgrading them right away between 85 and 87?

Well, since you rode the very beast I won't question you too much on that. Probably the Dutch army launched some retrofit program on the way, to prepare for the A5s which, at the time, must have been expected quite faster than how they really came, am I right?

Now to determine what was this upgrade exactly.
Maybe that ahs something to do with the 2 Leo2a4 batch I was talking about, one with TC, the other with armour?

Just wondering...

[Jaws43]

PlasmaKrab said:

Jaws43 said:
Indeed it was the Leopard 2 NL. I know we got a update in 1989 or 1990.. I was Platoon commander at that time from a Recce platoon. I thought it was the Leopard 2 A4A1 (NL) The A4 must be updated between 1985 and 1987.. in that period I had no function on a Leopard 2.



Leopard2A4A1 NL?

You mean upgraded once in 1985-87 along with the first German A4 batch, then once again in 1989-90 to A4A1?

I hadn't seen this AxAy thing since, well, Leo1!

Anyway, the last Leo2NL were delivered in 1986. So, upgrading them right away between 85 and 87?

Well, since you rode the very beast I won't question you too much on that. Probably the Dutch army launched some retrofit program on the way, to prepare for the A5s which, at the time, must have been expected quite faster than how they really came, am I right?

Now to determine what was this upgrade exactly.
Maybe that ahs something to do with the 2 Leo2a4 batch I was talking about, one with TC, the other with armour?

Just wondering...



There were some explosion suppress system placed but taken out and would be implemented in case of war. So there were other things.

It is not a question for me who is right or wrong but more how can we update the Dutch OOB. At this moment it is a disaster when I'm talking about recce units (and since I’m a recce man).

The fact that I couldn't use the Leopard 2 A4 only in 1995 triggered me to write this post. I noticed this in the last version but hoped it would be fixed in this one.

To be honest when the updates came it didn’t interest me because I only wanted to exercise with that thing in the real world and not in a simulation. But when getting older.. you must except to let it loose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[narwan]

Jaws:

I have a question you might know the answer to regarding the dutch OOB. In it (from the 80's) the dutch mechanized infantry companies have platoons consisting of only 2 infantry squads, with 2 ATGM's and 4 YPR's. My info (which is a bit flimsy as of yet) shows them to have 3 infantry squads per platoon however with 1 or 2 ATGM's (differed per company although I don't know on what basis) and 4 YPR's. Can you confirm either the current version or what my info says?

Narwan

[Jaws43]

Jaws43 said:
Oh I forgot,


A Squadron from
1995 until 2006,
3x recce platoon,
1x infantry platoon of 4x YPR as infantry units

From 2006 until...
3x recce platoon fenneck,
1x MRAT platoon fenneck



MRAT platoon consist of 2 sections of 2 vehicles (total of 4 thus)

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
Jaws:

I have a question you might know the answer to regarding the dutch OOB. In it (from the 80's) the dutch mechanized infantry companies have platoons consisting of only 2 infantry squads, with 2 ATGM's and 4 YPR's. My info (which is a bit flimsy as of yet) shows them to have 3 infantry squads per platoon however with 1 or 2 ATGM's (differed per company although I don't know on what basis) and 4 YPR's. Can you confirm either the current version or what my info says?

Narwan



We had 4 YPR 765 PRI with 4 squads in a platoon and 3 platoons in a company. Each company had a support of 4 YPR 765 PRAT (TOW II) and 4 120 MM mortar drawn by 4 YPR 765 CO. It could be mixed for task but was mostly not at platoon level.

[narwan]

From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.



About the ATGM .. we had two dragons in a infantry platoon. About mortars and Prats.. we had a support company at battalion level with those mid '90, but was reorganized to support units at company level except for the mortar platoon. So every compgny had and have at the moment his only PRAT platoon. We reorganized so much lately I can get up the pace only for cavalry units. I can do research of course but my intent was the Dutch Cavalry OOB. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[narwan]

Working through the whole OB for a nation is a big task indeed. Maybe we can divide the task somewhat?

My problem is a lack of proper resources for accurate and reliable data on dutch army organisation and date's for introduction of new and discarding of old equipment. If you could point me to some good material I'll see what I can do (I'm thinking mech infantry units from 70's to 90's as a first 'objective'). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
Working through the whole OB for a nation is a big task indeed. Maybe we can divide the task somewhat?

My problem is a lack of proper resources for accurate and reliable data on dutch army organisation and date's for introduction of new and discarding of old equipment. If you could point me to some good material I'll see what I can do (I'm thinking mech infantry units from 70's to 90's as a first 'objective'). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Ok give me some time. I'm busy at the moment until hollyday. I will ask around when I'm at work.

[Jaws43]

Jaws43 said:

PlasmaKrab said:
Oh, and a wholly other question for Jaws43:

Have you any info about the Fennek MRAT?

I know it is supposed to fire Gill ATGMs, but is it just dismount transport, or pintle mount, or a special turret? Or has the program been cancelled altogether?
I found nearly no info on this variant, and since I ahave done new icons for the recon, utility and FO versions I would have liked to add this one too.

Thanks for any info,

Plasma



it will be 5 dismounted Gills.

Cheers



And 3x panzerfaust per MRAT vehicle. So a vehicle has 5x Gill and 3x Panzerfaust latest generation. Man I'm glad I only do the Dutch Cavalry and not the whole world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PlasmaKrab]

Vele dank!

All the better I don't have to icon a new turreted version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


And 3x panzerfaust per MRAT vehicle. So a vehicle has 5x Gill and 3x Panzerfaust latest generation. Man I'm glad I only do the Dutch Cavalry and not the whole world


These figures are the ammo loadout? I guess you don't fit 8 AT teams into one Fennek! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

So this Fennek MRAT is only a carrier for the dismounted ATteam, which uses both Gill launcher and PzFst III from outside the vehicle, right? No way of firing the Gill from a ring-mounted launcher, like on a HMMWV or anything? Really? :pheew:

Hey, by the way, how long has the Dutch Army had Panzerfausts?
Pardon if I am not up to date, but I thought they had gone entirely to AT-4.

[Jaws43]

PlasmaKrab said:
Vele dank!

All the better I don't have to icon a new turreted version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


And 3x panzerfaust per MRAT vehicle. So a vehicle has 5x Gill and 3x Panzerfaust latest generation. Man I'm glad I only do the Dutch Cavalry and not the whole world


These figures are the ammo loadout? I guess you don't fit 8 AT teams into one Fennek! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

So this Fennek MRAT is only a carrier for the dismounted ATteam, which uses both Gill launcher and PzFst III from outside the vehicle, right? No way of firing the Gill from a ring-mounted launcher, like on a HMMWV or anything? Really? :pheew:

Hey, by the way, how long has the Dutch Army had Panzerfausts?
Pardon if I am not up to date, but I thought they had gone entirely to AT-4.




Indeed the Fenneck is only a AT carrier. 3 man do the job. It is all reorganized inside to fit.
The AT-4 is almost done and the Panzerfaust is implemented at this moment.

[Jaws43]

Jaws43 said:

narwan said:
From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.



About the ATGM .. we had two dragons in a infantry platoon. About mortars and Prats.. we had a support company at battalion level with those mid '90, but was reorganized to support units at company level except for the mortar platoon. So every compgny had and have at the moment his only PRAT platoon. We reorganized so much lately I can get up the pace only for cavalry units. I can do research of course but my intent was the Dutch Cavalry OOB. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Ok here we go;
Form 1979 until 1992 our infantry batalion had
1x support company (logictics only and a recce platoon),
1x Anti tank support company (3x PRAT platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRAT (TOW) and 4x Mortar platoon 120mm of 4x YPR 765 CO and 4 drawn Mortars),
3x infantry company(3x Infantry platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRI)Im a platoon a Section (2x YPR) had 1x garl gustaf and 20x law) mid/late 1980 law was replaced by AT 4 and and Garl Gustaf by Drangon.

During that period we had also YP 408 battalions same organized but 1986 all battalions were YPR 765

1992 we combined the support company with the Anti tank company but gave the AT platoons to the company’s. So the Support company had a Recce and mortar platoon and a infantry company had 3x infantry platoon and 1x PRAT platoon.

In 2007 we will replace the YPR 765 for the CV 9035 (35mm kanon)

So we had no mixed units with AT and infantry. It was not known that we mixed these. But there could always a situation that they were combined due mission.

We used to have independed Anti tank companies until early/ mid 1980 the had 2x AMX 13 tank and 2x AMX TOW in 1 platoon.

[Mobhack]

Jaws43 said:
Ok here we go;
Form 1979 until 1992 our infantry batalion had
1x support company (logictics only and a recce platoon),
1x Anti tank support company (3x PRAT platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRAT (TOW) and 4x Mortar platoon 120mm of 4x YPR 765 CO and 4 drawn Mortars),
3x infantry company(3x Infantry platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRI)Im a platoon a Section (2x YPR) had 1x garl gustaf and 20x law) mid/late 1980 law was replaced by AT 4 and and Garl Gustaf by Drangon.

During that period we had also YP 408 battalions same organized but 1986 all battalions were YPR 765

1992 we combined the support company with the Anti tank company but gave the AT platoons to the company’s. So the Support company had a Recce and mortar platoon and a infantry company had 3x infantry platoon and 1x PRAT platoon.

In 2007 we will replace the YPR 765 for the CV 9035 (35mm kanon)

So we had no mixed units with AT and infantry. It was not known that we mixed these. But there could always a situation that they were combined due mission.

We used to have independed Anti tank companies until early/ mid 1980 the had 2x AMX 13 tank and 2x AMX TOW in 1 platoon.



OK - from previous feedback, all mech and motor platoons are based on a 3 vehicle organisation. I presume all (wheeled and tracked) should be modified to have an extra APC + rifle section?

we have an SP-ATGM section as part of each mech/motor coy - I presume fromthe above that this should be a full platoon of 4? (with an optional coy later on where the dismounted MRAT is used - presumably a platoon of 2 vehicles and 4 MRAT teams ?)

The rifle and marine, engineer etc leg platoons are all 3 sections as well. Should that be 4 sections (ie add one HQ/support).

Nb - if the platoon HQ is a few men, then 3 sections will represent that, with the HQ spread amongst the 3 rifle sections, as we really do not want little 4 man "HQ unit - please kill me!!" instantly-recognisable units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

In other words - the leg rifle platoon and company (and any differences for say the marines) would be handy to know, if the differ from the OOB.

One other query - will dragon be replaced by Spike-SR in the mech platoons at some point, or is dragon to continue as the short range ATGM?.

if Spike-SR will be the replacement - what date, and presumably it will be called the "SRAT" as Spike-MR(AKA Gill) is the MRAT ?

I plan to finish off the modified Dutch OOB today or tomorrow - and then test it before posting for comment shortly.

Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

Thanks! That's actually very close to the info I had.

A few questions though:

1. Carl Gustav's and Dragon's weren't used side by side in infantry platoons? Or did some have the Carl Gustav and others Dragons (for some of the time)?

2. So each platoon had (in MBT game terms) 3 inf squads and 1 at team (with either Carl Gustav's or dragon)? Did some formations have 2 at teams (dragon launchers)? (The game gives a platoon 2 launchers and my info says it varied between units).

3. The motorized (YP 408) squads also had the 20 law's (because in the game they don't anymore)?

4. The battallion recce platoon used only YPR's? Or also the M114?

5. Were those independent anti tank companies part of I corps assets or divisison/brigade assets? Btw I didn't know we had AMX's with TOW. I'll check to see if they're even in the game.

Sorry to keep you busy but I'm trying to translate your info into 'game parameters'. You can also just let me know where I can find the info and I'll do the work myself (or part of it at least ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

Narwan

[Jaws43]

Mobhack said:

Jaws43 said:
Ok here we go;
Form 1979 until 1992 our infantry batalion had
1x support company (logictics only and a recce platoon),
1x Anti tank support company (3x PRAT platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRAT (TOW) and 4x Mortar platoon 120mm of 4x YPR 765 CO and 4 drawn Mortars),
3x infantry company(3x Infantry platoon of 4x YPR 765 PRI)Im a platoon a Section (2x YPR) had 1x garl gustaf and 20x law) mid/late 1980 law was replaced by AT 4 and and Garl Gustaf by Drangon.

During that period we had also YP 408 battalions same organized but 1986 all battalions were YPR 765

1992 we combined the support company with the Anti tank company but gave the AT platoons to the company’s. So the Support company had a Recce and mortar platoon and a infantry company had 3x infantry platoon and 1x PRAT platoon.

In 2007 we will replace the YPR 765 for the CV 9035 (35mm kanon)

So we had no mixed units with AT and infantry. It was not known that we mixed these. But there could always a situation that they were combined due mission.

We used to have independed Anti tank companies until early/ mid 1980 the had 2x AMX 13 tank and 2x AMX TOW in 1 platoon.



OK - from previous feedback, all mech and motor platoons are based on a 3 vehicle organisation. I presume all (wheeled and tracked) should be modified to have an extra APC + rifle section?

we have an SP-ATGM section as part of each mech/motor coy - I presume fromthe above that this should be a full platoon of 4? (with an optional coy later on where the dismounted MRAT is used - presumably a platoon of 2 vehicles and 4 MRAT teams ?)

The rifle and marine, engineer etc leg platoons are all 3 sections as well. Should that be 4 sections (ie add one HQ/support).

Nb - if the platoon HQ is a few men, then 3 sections will represent that, with the HQ spread amongst the 3 rifle sections, as we really do not want little 4 man "HQ unit - please kill me!!" instantly-recognisable units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

In other words - the leg rifle platoon and company (and any differences for say the marines) would be handy to know, if the differ from the OOB.

One other query - will dragon be replaced by Spike-SR in the mech platoons at some point, or is dragon to continue as the short range ATGM?.

if Spike-SR will be the replacement - what date, and presumably it will be called the "SRAT" as Spike-MR(AKA Gill) is the MRAT ?

I plan to finish off the modified Dutch OOB today or tomorrow - and then test it before posting for comment shortly.

Cheers
Andy



OK - from previous feedback, all mech and motor platoons are based on a 3 vehicle organisation. I presume all (wheeled and tracked) should be modified to have an extra APC + rifle section?

AGREE
only a tank platoon of a 60 tank, tank battalion had 5 tanks in a platoon. (only Centurion, Leopard 1 and leopard 1v until 1992) The leopard 2 battalions had 4 tanks in a platoon.
The MRAT platoon of a infantry company will have 6x fenneck starting this year with same load-out as MRAT vehicle recce units
And a Cheata AAA platoon has 3x Cheata and 3x stinger

we have an SP-ATGM section as part of each mech/motor coy - I presume from the above that this should be a full platoon of 4? (with an optional coy later on where the dismounted MRAT is used - presumably a platoon of 2 vehicles and 4 MRAT teams ?)

AGREE
4 vehicles in a YPR PRAT platoon
The new MRAT platoon of a infantry company will have 6 fennecks

The rifle and marine, engineer etc leg platoons are all 3 sections as well. Should that be 4 sections (ie add one HQ/support).

SORRY
I can not answer this

Nb - if the platoon HQ is a few men, then 3 sections will represent that, with the HQ spread amongst the 3 rifle sections, as we really do not want little 4 man "HQ unit - please kill me!!" instantly-recognisable units !

WE DON’T have a HQ at platoon level. It is almost the same organized as a normal group of infantry. We call 1 group a group and 2 groups a section. 2 sections a platoon.

In other words - the leg rifle platoon and company (and any differences for say the marines) would be handy to know, if the differ from the OOB.

I don’t have info on marine sorry

One other query - will dragon be replaced by Spike-SR in the mech platoons at some point, or is dragon to continue as the short range ATGM?.

SPIKE?? We don’t have a Spike at the Dutch Army. Only a Garl Gustaf and that was replaces by a dragon mid 1980

if Spike-SR will be the replacement - what date, and presumably it will be called the "SRAT" as Spike-MR(AKA Gill) is the MRAT ?

THE new SRAT is the Panzerfaust 3.The GILL is the MRAT

I plan to finish off the modified Dutch OOB today or tomorrow - and then test it before posting for comment shortly.

Well please send me the ORBAT and I will check. Many thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jaws43]

narwan said:
Thanks! That's actually very close to the info I had.

A few questions though:

1. Carl Gustav's and Dragon's weren't used side by side in infantry platoons? Or did some have the Carl Gustav and others Dragons (for some of the time)?

2. So each platoon had (in MBT game terms) 3 inf squads and 1 at team (with either Carl Gustav's or dragon)? Did some formations have 2 at teams (dragon launchers)? (The game gives a platoon 2 launchers and my info says it varied between units).

3. The motorized (YP 408) squads also had the 20 law's (because in the game they don't anymore)?

4. The battallion recce platoon used only YPR's? Or also the M114?

5. Were those independent anti tank companies part of I corps assets or divisison/brigade assets? Btw I didn't know we had AMX's with TOW. I'll check to see if they're even in the game.

Sorry to keep you busy but I'm trying to translate your info into 'game parameters'. You can also just let me know where I can find the info and I'll do the work myself (or part of it at least ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

Narwan



1. We used to have a short period were both were used in a platoon in he mid 1980's

2. No each platoon has 4 infantry groups with same organisation. As post above we call a group a group, 2 groups a section and 2 sections/ 4 groups a platoon in all our units with exception named above.

Only the R/A section (2x YPR 765 PRI )have a dragon team and the E/B section had a dragon team) We had a short period the Garl Gustaf and Dragons.

3. Yes they had same organisation as YPR units.

4. At tank and infantry battalions they had YPR from 1979 until now. Look at first post of difference between recon units.
Since 1992 all recce platoons are the same. 7x YPR 765. 1 platoon commander and 3x a section of 2x YPR 765 PRI

5. At brigade level

Also the AMX TOW was replaced by YP TOW in early 1970


I don’t mind as long as the game gets better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You will not find this info on internet so just ask http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

http://gaf.zeelandnet.nl/yp408/ (YP 408)

[Mobhack]

Spike-MR is/was also known as "Gill" -
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/spike-mr.htm

Spike-LR is now simply called "spike", was also called NTD it seems..
http://www.eschel.co.il/dui/directory/spike-lr.htm

seems the manufacture changed the names? - it's confusing, anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

ah! - there appear to be 4 variants of Spike, looking at the rafael page:
http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products-use.htm

Spike-SR,MR,LR and ER

(I have not looked into the details)
Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

Looks like we have some great improvements of the dutch OB to look forward to soon. Thanks guys!

Narwan

[Jaws43]

Mobhack said:
Spike-MR is/was also known as "Gill" -
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/spike-mr.htm

Spike-LR is now simply called "spike", was also called NTD it seems..
http://www.eschel.co.il/dui/directory/spike-lr.htm

seems the manufacture changed the names? - it's confusing, anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

ah! - there appear to be 4 variants of Spike, looking at the rafael page:
http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products-use.htm

Spike-SR,MR,LR and ER

(I have not looked into the details)
Cheers
Andy




Ok rgr thx for info

[Jaws43]

Since 1996 we have the Diemaco in our organisation. The 7A1 replaced the Fal, the C8 replaced the UZI. All regular military and non fighting units received the Diemaco C7.

The Minimi entered in 2002 and replaced the MAG 7.62. Only 2 Minimi’s replaced 1x MAG.

Also since 1999 we have the Acuracy .338 2x in a platoon (each section 1x)

The Panzerfaust 3 will be from this moment 2x in a platoon (each section 1x) ammo not known but at least 6 shots but likely more.

MobHack I have some info I like to Email you. Please give Email adres.

Thx

[Mobhack]

Jaws43 said:
Since 1996 we have the Diemaco in our organisation. The 7A1 replaced the Fal, the C8 replaced the UZI. All regular military and non fighting units received the Diemaco C7.

The Minimi entered in 2002 and replaced the MAG 7.62. Only 2 Minimi’s replaced 1x MAG.

Also since 1999 we have the Acuracy .338 2x in a platoon (each section 1x)

The Panzerfaust 3 will be from this moment 2x in a platoon (each section 1x) ammo not known but at least 6 shots but likely more.

MobHack I have some info I like to Email you. Please give Email adres.

Thx



You seem to be using "section" to mean a half-paltoon, instead of the normal usage ( Americans call a sectiona "squad")? That is the old World-war One way of organising a platoon into 2 "chunks".

The C7 is there already.

I'll take your other comments on board

the panzerfaust 3 ISD was when?

I'll make those changes to the master build and that OOB will be released whenever we do a 1.01 update.

Cheers
Andy

[Jaws43]

ISD?? I f you mean when it was implemented.. From Mai this year.

Yes we still have squads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
2x squads is a section
2x sections is a platoon

[Jaws43]

Oh yes... 2x underslung granate launcher in a squad/group since 2003 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jaws43]

Thanks for updates on CD release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Here are some photo's of the Lynx (Recon). The correct name must be the M113 C&R on English or M113 C&V on Dutch. The photo's used at this moment are from a YPR 765 and is not right. These are the correct photo's

First the .50 version than the 25mm version.

http://www.bendijkstra.nl/M113-70.jpg
http://www.bendijkstra.nl/M113-75.jpg
http://home.wanadoo.nl/huzarenvanboreel/Pict0006.JPG


Thanks again for effort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Yorick]

I have found one major and two minor 'bugs' in the Dutch OOB:

-There are Airmobile units (units 219 & 223 and formation 152) in the Dutch OOB going back untill 1968, this isn't possible though, since it was in 1993 that the Royal Netherlands Army raised her first Air Manouvre Bridge (Source: www.airmanouvrebrigade.nl (http://www.airmanouvrebrigade.nl)).

-The next thing is the DAF YP408 series, which have been in use by the Royal Netherlands Army from 1964 untill 1988 (Source: http://gaf.zeelandnet.nl/yp408/), in particulair the mortar version and recon version:
-The YP408 PW-MT(MR) (068) was a mortar carrier, it had a towing bracket at the back to which the 120mm Brandt-Rye was attached. it carried 50 rounds in it's cargo.
-The YP408-PWCO (254) in WinSPMT is serving as a FO vehicle, in my opinion the YP408 PW-RDR (radar) should be having this role (which isn't in WinSPMBT yet), since the YP408 PW-CO was used by the commander of a company!

Also I'm missing the Landrover as a utility vehicle in the Royal Netherlands Army, but I don't have any exact information about this one. Maby someone else has?

Cheers,
Yorick