two v. two v. two v. two v. two (full)

[Zooko]

http://zooko.com/map-800x600.png

click here for full map image (3200x1200 or so) (http://zooko.com/map.png)<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
players color of team color of enemies
------- ------------- ----------------
Hubris, Aku blue red, green
Arc, Zooko green blue, purple
QM, Turin purple green, yellow
KLear, Ioticus yellow purple, red
Tauren, Panther red yellow, blue
</pre><hr />
IP address: dom2s.zooko.com
port: 9999

There will be five teams, each consisting of two players.

The teams will be arranged in a pentagon, and the winning condition is this:

*** The game is over, and your team wins when both of the teams adjacent to you on the pentagon are dead.

This means the two teams adjacent to you are your enemies, and the two other teams that are not adjacent to you are your competitors.

We'll use a wrap-around map so that team-mates are near each other, and enemy teams are near each other.

I'll run a TCP/IP server, on 48-hour quickhost. Teams should arrange it so that if one team member is unable to make his move the other one does it for him.

Zooko, Arc (Ulm &amp; T'ien Ch'i)
King Lear, Ioticus (Machaka &amp; Man)
Tauren, Panther (Marignon &amp; Abysia)
quantum_mechani, Turin (Arcoscephale &amp; Pangaea)
Hubris, Aku (C'tis &amp; Ermor)

Note that the teams have been randomized by Alneyan, so which team is enemies with which other two teams is not yet known.

Settings: all default settings except:
* Zen's Pretender Mods 2.01
* Zen's Scale Mods 1.2
* Zen's Spell Mods 1.8
(Honestly I don't care for these mods, but everyone seems to like them so I decided to use them.)
* 45% magic sites (instead of default 40%)
* Magic research difficult (instead of default magic research normal)
* Independent strength 9 (instead of default independent strength 3)
* Score graphs OFF (instead of default score graphs on)

[King Lear]

Anyone want to be on my team?
Lear

[ioticus]

King Lear said:
Anyone want to be on my team?
Lear



Sure, I'll be on your team if you'll have me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[The_Tauren13]

me and panther are in

[YellowCactus]

Yellowcactus and Cunknown are in....I just have to tell Cunknown he's signed up.
-yc

[Aku]

Hubris and I will join as the last team if that is ok.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Heyda, Hacker Pschor and me will be in one team.

Anything about the nation picking?

We want to pick Jotun(me) and Emor(Hacker Pschorr).

.

Edit: O r are we too late, i won´t hope it!

[Zooko]

GriffinOfBeurrig and Hacker Pschor: sorry the Ascension War is full unless one of the other teams drops out.

Team 1: Zooko and Arc
Team 2: King Lear and Ioticus
Team 3: Tauren and Panther
Team 4: Yellowcactus and Cunknown
Team 5: Hubris and Aku

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Ahhh, oki, we will wait and enter if one team drops :-]

[arch_o_median]

So what nations do we play?
I propose that everyone simultaneously nominates a first pick. Nations that are only picked once go to the picker.

All: (one pretender&lt;--&gt;one nation) picks are determined leaving fewer nations to choose from and fewer pretenders to choose....

[Zooko]

So, uh, everyone just posts to this thread what their first nation choice is? Fine with me.

I choose Pangaea. If anyone else wants it then I'll choose something else.

[arch_o_median]

Sorry, I should clarify. By "pretender" I meant "player".

[ioticus]

I'll take Machaka.

[Hubris]

Water nations?

[Zooko]

We don't know what map to use yet.

Also, I've decided I don't want Pangaea. :-)

I think I want Man...

[arch_o_median]

I'd like Ulm.

[Aku]

Inland is good if you know how to set up preset locations which I dont know how.

I vote for no water nations.

[Aku]

Arc and Zooko what is your first pick? Ulm or Man?

Team Aku/Hubris would like to make our first pick as Vanheim.

[ioticus]

King Lear, who ya wanna be, dude?

[Zooko]

Our first pick is Ulm.

[Aku]

Team Aku/Hubris is changing our pick from Vanheim to Ctis. Rather play a heat theme than cold because I refuse to use cheezy *** Caelum and I dont like Jotumheim.

Also what are the game settings?

Magic sites/World Richness/Independents/etc

[Zooko]

I propose:

Sites normal (40%)
Richness normal
Independents 9
Research hard

[The_Tauren13]

Panther and I want Machaka and Marignon.

[Zooko]

It seems fair to assign enemies according to the order we signed up.

Zooko and Arc
King Lear and Ioticus
Tauren and Panther
Yellowcactus and Cunknown
Hubris and Aku

So Team Zooko&amp;Arc wins if Hubris, Aku, King Lear, and Ioticus all die. Team King Lear&amp;Ioticus wins if Zooko, Arc, Tauren, and Panther all die. Team Tauren&amp;Panther wins if King Lear, Ioticus, Yellowcactus, and Cunknown all die. Team Yellowcactus&amp;Cunknown wins if Tauren, Panther, Hubris, and Aku all die. Team Hubris&amp;Aku wins if Yellowcactus, Cunknown, Zooko, and Arc all die.

This is going to be FUN! :-)


UPDATE: See further in this thread where I change my mind. Instead of enemies being assigned according to the order that they joined the game, Alneyan will randomly assign enemies without telling anyone who they are!

You'll have to hire scouts or expand the borders of your empire if you want to know who your enemies are. :-)

[Aku]

Tauren/Panther team what is your first pick? you chose two nations.

Also YC/Chris team needs to choose a first pick.

[Zooko]

So our team's first pick is (still) Ulm, and forget anything I said about Man or Pangaea...

[Zooko]

Now as for placement, either one of us can place all ten teams and everyone can know everyone else's starting positions, or we can solicit some third party to do the placement for us and we can all not know. Although we all know that the placement will be *roughly* the simple layout described in the ASCII art in the first message of this thread.

I think we should just have everyone know everyone's position. Could someone tell me how to do specific placement, or just do it (on Inland) and post it for everyone to see?

[CUnknown]

I don't think that YC and I are actually playing. That Faerun game is going to start taking a lot of time soon. Sorry..

[Zooko]

Okay! Thanks for letting us know right away.

current line-up:

Zooko and Arc -- Ulm
King Lear and Ioticus -- ?
Tauren and Panther -- Machaka
Griffin of Buerrig and Hacker Pschor (if they are still interested) -- Jotunheim
Hubris and Aku -- Ctis

[The Panther]

Aku said:
Tauren/Panther team what is your first pick? you chose two nations.




Since we had the last pick in the first round, we went ahead and choose the first pick in round 2.

However, it turns out that we are no longer last because of the substitution issue so I suppose we really have the second pick in round 2 instead of the first one...

[Aku]

arch_o_median said:
So what nations do we play?
I propose that everyone simultaneously nominates a first pick. Nations that are only picked once go to the picker.

All: (one pretender&lt;--&gt;one nation) picks are determined leaving fewer nations to choose from and fewer pretenders to choose....



Nobody said there was an order of picking for the 5th team to get the 1st slot on 2nd round of picking. Then I could change my nation and pick something and say I am last and then get 2nd round first pick.

Let the HOST decide wtf is going on thats why I quoted the host. If people are going to try to take over the host by making his decisions then I rather withdraw.

If you didnt notice my first paragraph after the quote I am being sarcastic on how people are trying to manipulate this [censored] game.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Heyda, of course we are still in interrested, are we on our turn to do the next pick?

[Zooko]

Whoops, obviously the host (that's me) ought to implement some more stringent fairness methods.

I hereby declare that, uh, that, oh heck I don't care who picks their second team in what order. Sorry. If someone can suggest a fair mechanism I'll stringently implement it.

[Hubris]

As a lesson though, you should always have strict rules on everything when you're the host.

[Zooko]

Yes, it's true. Sorry for my laxness.

The remaining team which hasn't announced their first pick should announce their first pick, that's King Lear and Ioticus. After that, we'll go in reverse order for announcing second pick. Stay tuned for more detail.

[Zooko]

I earlier posted:



Zooko and Arc -- Ulm
King Lear and Ioticus -- ?
Tauren and Panther -- Machaka
Griffin of Buerrig and Hacker Pschor (if they are still interested) -- Jotunheim
Hubris and Aku -- Ctis




But I made a mistake: according to the thread history Ioticus asked for Machaka before Tauren and Panther did, and I didn't see it.

So, the current nation choices in the order that they were called is:

Griffin of Buerrig and Hacker Pschor -- Jotunheim
King Lear and Ioticus -- Machaka
Zooko and Arc -- Ulm
Hubris and Aku -- Ctis
Tauren and Panther -- Marignon

If everyone accepts the choices so far, then the next step is for Tauren and Panther to announce their second pick, then Hubris and Aku, then Zooko and Arc, then King Lear and Ioticus, then Griffin and Hacker Pschor.

[Aku]

alright panther/tauren team do your 2nd pick

[Aku]

bump for panther/tauren team to see

what is your 2nd pick? you are up

[The Panther]

Tauren moved off to college yesterday. He has yet to come up on line from his dorm room. I expect it will take a few days for him to get settled in with the school computer.

He does know that he needs to decide on a nation, as Machaka was his pick.

[Zooko]

I'm going to configure the server to send an e-mail message to a list of addresses announcing the availability of a new turn. If you want your e-mail address to be on that list, then please post your e-mail address here, or send e-mail to "zooko@zooko.com" with the string "DOM2" in the subject line. (So that I will notice your mail and not delete it as spam.)

I personally love getting e-mail announcing new turns, so that I don't waste hours of my time compulsively re-connecting to see if a new turn is up.

[Zooko]

Ugh. I just spent way too much of my time trying to choose 10 starting locations on the Inland map so that it would be fair -- i.e. no starting nation is surrounded by enemies and cut off from his ally and so forth. It doesn't seem possible without a lot of work. Hm... I *could* write a computer program to do it...


*Or*, we could have (gulp) random starting locations, or, um, we could take turns choosing our starting location, or something else.

I think I'll go experiment with writing a computer program to do it...

[King Lear]

Well, since no one else has posted in a day or so, I guess I will. I would like either Abysia or Man in that order. If the people who can choose before me want one (or both) of them, they can have them, and I'll come up with something else.

[Aku]

Team Hubris knows what we want for 2nd pick but waiting for Team Panther to pick their 2nd nation.

[Alneyan]

Zooko said:
Ugh. I just spent way too much of my time trying to choose 10 starting locations on the Inland map so that it would be fair -- i.e. no starting nation is surrounded by enemies and cut off from his ally and so forth. It doesn't seem possible without a lot of work. Hm... I *could* write a computer program to do it...


*Or*, we could have (gulp) random starting locations, or, um, we could take turns choosing our starting location, or something else.

I think I'll go experiment with writing a computer program to do it...



Good luck. I spent about two or three hours on Inland to set up 12 starting points in Entwined Destiny, with three provinces (at least) between either capital of a team and enemy capitals, and only one province between the two allies. In the end, I think most teams had contact with the rest of the world, with the longest "jump" between any two capitals being of six provinces.

If you are interested, I should have the .map file on my computer, but it will have to be made public (meaning everyone knows the starting points), unless you made significant alterations. It's far from perfect though, and was made for 12 players, instead of 10. I don't think you will manage a neat "in row" formation on Inland though: team A will almost certainly have other contacts besides team E and B, and so on.

[The Panther]

I talked to my son today. He will not be online with his new computer until Tuesday at the earliest. But he did choose his nation for this game.

Tauren selects Abysia.

[Aku]

Team Hubris chooses Ermor.

Team Zooko your team choice is up!

Also instead of Inland maybe we should do the map Ringworld? It will give you more what you need in having the setup of teams bordering a team on each side. Just a thought.

[King Lear]

Zooko, I like the map settings you propose, but I would suggest 45% for gems. Just slightly more spice =).

and I stand by Man if no one else wants it.

Otherwise I'll have to figure out something else.

[Zooko]

Our second pick is Tien Chi.

I'll look into Ringworld. But I have made some progress on setting up Inland. Start a game with this map and play Abysia to see the first 5 spots I've layed out.

My idea was to lay out 10 spots (as shown in the ASCII art in the first message of this thread) then get someone to randomly assign teams to the five pairs and randomly assign each player within a team to one of the two spots in that pair.

[Zooko]

Okay, the next step is Team Griffin &amp; Hacker to announce their second nation pick. Then we just have to wait for me to finish setting up a map. I'm downloading Ringworld at the moment.

I accept King Lear's suggestion of 45% magic site frequency.

Do folks want nation score graphs on or off? Since the default is on, and since I originally announced that I would be using default settings except as noted, the score graphs will be ON unless people request them to be off.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

graphs definitly on!!!!

Our second pick is Caelum!

[The Panther]

Ringworld is severly unbalanced. There are several areas of vast wastelands in places. Several of us recently played that map for the current slugfest game and about half the players had starting spots that were so bad, the game was mostly hopeless on the first move.

[Zooko]

Well, I guess we *could* edit Ringworld to have less expansive wastelands... :-)

Also it would have to be edited to be symmetric all the way around, instead of having a "jump" in the station connection pattern...

[Zooko]

Hm. The Ringworld graphics file -- Ringworld.tga -- doesn't show different graphics for different terrain types. I dislike maps like that, where you have to right click on a province in order to know what kind of terrain it has.

[Aku]

any ideas for another map?

[Zooko]

I think Inland will do. I'm working on laying it out.

[Zooko]

My brother Arc just pointed out to me that if we have score graphs *off* then two things will happen:

1. People will have to hire scouts.
2. People will want to gossip with one another in order to find out what is going on.

I consider that latter feature to be extremely important to the game as I envision it, so unless several people object (sorry, Griffin!), let's have score graphs off.

[Zooko]

Here's a proposed map. Start a game with Abyssia as a human and with the next 10 land nations as players, then play a round as Abyssia. That way you can see the 10 starting locations. Note that which nations go in those locations is not determined yet -- Alneyan has agreed to act as an impartial person to assign the five teams to the 5 pairs and assign each team-member to one of the two locations in that pair. The pairs are the starting locations which are closest to each other. They are northwest-southeast from each other.

If that doesn't make sense just pipe up and I'll try to explain it better.

If there's something inherently unfair about this layout, given that the teams will be randomly located to these five pairs, then speak up now!

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Our second pick is Caelum!

[Zooko]

Okay! We're almost ready to let the war begin!

Final steps:

1. Have a look at the map I attached to see if the starting spots are acceptable to you.

2. Settings: all default settings except:
* Zen's Pretender Mods 2.01
* Zen's Scale Mods 1.2
* Zen's Spell Mods 1.8
(Honestly I don't care for these mods, but everyone seems to like them so I decided to use them.)
* 45% magic sites (instead of default 40%)
* Magic research difficult (instead of default magic research normal)
* Independent strength 9 (instead of default independent strength 3)
* Score graphs OFF (instead of default score graphs on)

3. After people have a chance to object, Alneyan will place the ten nations with allies near each other on the map, and send me the ftherland file, and I'll set up the server but I won't look at the contents of the file. Nobody including me will know who their enemies are at first!


By the way, I have only four e-mail addresses in my list of e-mail addresses who get automatic notifications of new turns. If you want e-mailed notifications of new turns then please send me your e-mail address.

[Alneyan]

Zooko said:
3. After people have a chance to object, Alneyan will place the ten nations with allies near each other on the map, and send me the ftherland file, and I'll set up the server but I won't look at the contents of the file. Nobody including me will know who their enemies are at first!



Do you really mean the fatherland file? It could be done too, in a game where I set up the full game, including the master password and the .map file: such a set up is best if you would rather lower your opportunities of cheating as much as possible, to avoid suspicion at a later date.

That way or only the .map file is fine with me, and will only take a couple of minutes at most.

[Zooko]

Is there any reason that I would need the master password? Only if we have to do something like set a player to AI, right? And we almost certainly won't need to do anything like that.

So please create the whole game and set a master password.

By the way, how can we arrange it so that players can log in to view their team-mate's turn?

[Zooko]

By the way, you guys should really examine the layout before we start. Here is an easy way to view it:

http://zooko.com/map.png
(Or see smaller image embedded in first post on this thread.)

In that image you can see where the nations start, although the nations in that display are not the ones that we have picked and that we are actually going to play with.

The teams are the ones connected by blue lines and the enemies are the ones connected by red lines.


As soon as the war begins you will know which of these positions you and your team-mate occupy, and you will know exactly which four *locations* are occupied by your two enemy teams, but you will not know who lives there until your scouts get there. :-)

[Zooko]

Tomorrow morning (2005-07-14) in the Atlantic Time Zone I'll check for any change requests from the players, make any final decisions, and then ask Alneyan to assign the starting positions and generate the ftherland file.

So the war will begin tomorrow!

Zooko the Just Host

[Aku]

sounds good

[King Lear]

Just for my benefit, please dear friends, I have tried looking at the scale mod to see what it does. but with little success. Anyone here able to clarify it for me, as that would influence (slightly) my choice of pretender.

Oh, and while i'm at it, I would enjoy indi 8 a twinge more; gives a little more chance to have a mage that's not such a super combatant, and put more points into scales.

But I am simply one of many. =)

[Alneyan]

Scale Mod 1.2:
- Production/Sloth alters income by 4% a tick and resources by 15% a tick (was 2% and 10%, if memory serves).
- Growth/Death alters income by 4% a tick and population by 0.3% a turn per tick.
- Changes to the events, with Misfortune increasing the odds of getting a bad event more sharply, and less frequent rare events (I think).

So the Scale mod improves the two "weaker" scales of Production and Growth, and taking Sloth-3 or Death-3 should hurt you more. Luck is now a more appealing option, and Misfortune should be a bit more dangerous.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Ok, a very very bad problem:

My brother Hacker Pschorr is not able to play, so we would like to make the slot free for another team http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

We are really sorry about this, but it is just not possible!

[Zooko]

Let's vote on the question of Independent Strength 8 vs. Independent Strength 9. If there's a tie, it'll stay at 9. I vote for 9, so currently it is a tie with King Lear in favor of 8 and me in favor of 9.

And by the way if you know of a team of players looking for a game, point them to this thread. :-)

Zooko the Fair Host

[Aku]

We could change the game to a 4 way battle royale?

Team Hubris votes indies 9.

[Zooko]

No, I'm going to hold out for a fifth team.

Currently it is 2 votes for indies 9, 1 vote for indies 8.

[Zooko]

So is there any way to advertise on this BBS for another team, or is the mere existence of this thread with "one team wanted" in its title the standard way to advertise?

[Aku]

having the thread with one team wanted in title is standard procedure

[quantum_mechani]

I would be part of a replacement team. Would you consider trying my Moderation mod (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=366088&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1)?

[The Panther]

I vote indy 8, just to be different from having 9 in pretty much every other game being played.

[Turin]

I´d like to be the other part of the replacement team.

[King Lear]

So now you two newcommers =) get to chose your nations. What fun =)

[Zooko]

Okay! Two votes for indies 8 and two votes for indies 9!

Welcome to quantum_mechani and Turin!

Sorry, quantum_mechani, but I do not want to try your mod this time.

[quantum_mechani]

Zooko said:

Sorry, quantum_mechani, but I do not want to try your mod this time.

No problem, but would you mind giving a reason?

[Zooko]

Sure.

(a) I haven't looked at it, and am loathe to take the time.
(b) I don't really like "balance" mods at all. We're currently planning to use all of the Zen's mods, not because I like them, but because I believe everyone else to like them.

[Zooko]

(b) -- explained -- I think that there is a wide demand for "balance" mods because the "All vs. All" format punishes aggression and leads to lots of lurking/hoarding/diplomacy. I think that the basic unmodded game is well-balanced for a contest in which there is a good reward for aggression, but not well-balanced for a game in which there is extended lurking/hoarding/diplomacy etc. before the aggression starts.

So I think for *this* game -- pentagon format -- that balance mods actually "unbalance" the game more than balance it.

But I decided to use Zen's mods just so I wouldn't have to argue with people about what mods to use. :-)

[quantum_mechani]

Zooko said:
(b) -- explained -- I think that there is a wide demand for "balance" mods because the "All vs. All" format punishes aggression and leads to lots of lurking/hoarding/diplomacy. I think that the basic unmodded game is well-balanced for a contest in which there is a good reward for aggression, but not well-balanced for a game in which there is extended lurking/hoarding/diplomacy etc. before the aggression starts.

So I think for *this* game -- pentagon format -- that balance mods actually "unbalance" the game more than balance it.

But I decided to use Zen's mods just so I wouldn't have to argue with people about what mods to use. :-)

Fair enough. However, I like to argue so if will indulge me...

My mod is not to limit hoarding or any other tactic(well, almost, the one and only thing reduced in power is Caelum's mages, but almost everyone agrees they are overpowerd to some degree). It is it to open up strategies that would be highly inadvisable unmodified. When was the last time you purchased light cavalry? Or for that matter any troop with less than 10 armour and no special ability (flying, sacred, ranged troop, etc.)? Now, other mods have tried to do this, but they always ended up turning off players because they boosted things that were already used, and thus made them unbalanced (i.e., cherry's boosted white centaurs). I have tried to strictly limit myself to the obviously unused troops (in some cases I also made slight tweaks to mages of themes that were used, but the theme on the whole rated very low), and even then to only boost them in small steps.

[Zooko]

Well, it sounds like a good idea to me the way you put it, but I'm still only a little interested. How about we put it to a vote, and I abstain for the voting for now?

[The Panther]

I looked over the mods briefly today and was impressed. For example, I studied the mods on Marignon, the race I have in this game and the one I tested extensively in SP last night to make a pretender.

I was initially disappointed that QM did not change the cost of ANY of the troops that I was buying nearly exclusively in the SP test (namely Xbows, flagellents, and Chalice Knights). But then, it dawned on me that this was the exact purpose of the mod, in that it would make the other choices a bit more attractive than they currently are.

I also looked over a few of the other mods, namely the mages for C'tis and Caelum. I was pleased to see the grossly overpowered Caelum mages were nerfed a bit, for that is the correct thing to do. However, I was very dissapointed that he did not nerf the overpowered C'tis mages, for those guys are far too cheap to be a build-anywhere mage.

Overall, I would say that I am impressed with the mod and initially favorable. In fact, I would like to test it out at some time, though I doubt we could get sufficient support in this current game with our unusual format. Perhaps the next Slugfest game would be great for this.

In fact, I would even support the QM mod in this game as a test, though I will go either way.

BTW, I cannot even imagine playing a game without the Zen mods anymore. Our currently-running Song of the Blade game is living proof, as the air/astral nations with their cheesy Wrathful Skies tactic look to be the final two nations at this point.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
However, I was very dissapointed that he did not nerf the overpowered C'tis mages, for those guys are far too cheap to be a build-anywhere mage.



Well, that is much more debateable than the Caelum issue. The thing is, it is not that C'tis mages per se that are so good, it is skeleton spamming - they just happen to be very good at it. Changeing battle spells is beyond the scope of this particular mod.

Second, nerfing the sauro is difficult. It is really the teeth of C'tis, without it they would rank among the weakest of nations. As they stand now sauromancers does not automatically catapult C'tis to the position of top nation the way Caelum's does- it is quite possible for any nation to counter the spam, however annoying.

Thirdly, it goes against the philosophy of the mod, namely to make what was unusable usable. Caelum was the unique exception to the rule of boosting in that it was unusable because of being _too_ powerful. In any case, I'm quite sure nerfing C'tis would bring down a legion of annoyed dominions players- exactly what this moderate mod is trying to avoid.

Anyway, glad you liked the mod, hope you don't mind my long winded defense of saourmancers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The Panther]

Actually, the sauro/marsh masters are probably OK, and certainly not as bad as the High Seraphs. It is mostly the fact that the best C'tis mages can be recruited in any castle which makes them terribly unbalanced.

That is pretty much the ONLY reason that C'tis is greatly superior over a nation like Man, which has the penalizing restriction of having its good mages being capitol only. Were this to be balanced, both nations would be much closer to equal. The Crones are a powerful mage indeed, just as good as or better than a sauromancer (though more expensive).

I would even go so far as to say that Caelum just might not be the best nation in the game if the High Seraphs were not recruitable everywhere. Getting only one per turn just does not scare me like an opponent getting 4-5 per turn. I won my only game I played as Caelum by doing precisely this.

But as it is, Caelum and C'tis are pretty much in the top 4 of the rankings of just about any experienced player and Man is usually near the bottom. In fact, Man has no chance against either of those nations in a 1 on 1 except on the smallest of maps.

Unfortunately, I don't think this can be changed in a mod, though I could be wrong.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
Actually, the sauro/marsh masters are probably OK, and certainly not as bad as the High Seraphs. It is mostly the fact that the best C'tis mages can be recruited in any castle which makes them terribly unbalanced.

That is pretty much the ONLY reason that C'tis is greatly superior over a nation like Man, which has the penalizing restriction of having its good mages being capitol only. Were this to be balanced, both nations would be much closer to equal. The Crones are a powerful mage indeed, just as good as or better than a sauromancer (though more expensive).

I would even go so far as to say that Caelum just might not be the best nation in the game if the High Seraphs were not recruitable everywhere. Getting only one per turn just does not scare me like an opponent getting 4-5 per turn. I won my only game I played as Caelum by doing precisely this.

But as it is, Caelum and C'tis are pretty much in the top 4 of the rankings of just about any experienced player and Man is usually near the bottom. In fact, Man has no chance against either of those nations in a 1 on 1 except on the smallest of maps.

Unfortunately, I don't think this can be changed in a mod, though I could be wrong.

Yes, capital onlying is not moddable. I agree that making the high seraph capital only would be ideal, though a nerf to the lower seraph would probably be needed as well.

I disagree with your assessment of Man though. Stronger on smaller maps, true, but formidable nonetheless as long as you are not on faerun or something.

[Alneyan]

The Panther said:
BTW, I cannot even imagine playing a game without the Zen mods anymore. Our currently-running Song of the Blade game is living proof, as the air/astral nations with their cheesy Wrathful Skies tactic look to be the final two nations at this point.



Bah! I couldn't fight a war and win it if my life depended on it, so you shouldn't worry about me, I think; Vanheim could be another matter altogether though.

[King Lear]

As I haven't done a whole lot with either mod, I'm happy to accomadate whatever the majority decides. In other words, I abstain =) Although I'm glad to see that at least one other likes the novelty value of indi 8 =)

[Zooko]

I'm tired of waiting, so I hereby declare that as soon as quantum_mechani and Turin announce their nation choices, then we'll proceed with the game with whatever settings are currently winning the vote.

[Alneyan]

Zooko said:
I'm tired of waiting, so I hereby declare that as soon as quantum_mechani and Turin announce their nation choices, then we'll proceed with the game with whatever settings are currently winning the vote.



I want *you* to recount the ballots! Right now! I'm waiting!

[Zooko]

Um, I think there's one vote for quantum_mechani's mod and three abstentions. So if quantum_mechani and Turin hurry up and submit their nation choices then I'll agree to use QM's mod. :-)

[Zooko]

Currently it is 2 votes for indies 9, 2 votes for indies 8. Tie goes to the setting which I originally announced, which is independent strength 9. However, the polls will not close until quantum_mechani and Turin both post their nation choices.

[quantum_mechani]

Zooko said:
However, the polls will not close until quantum_mechani and Turin both post their nation choices.

We decided on Arco and Pan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Turin]

yeah fear our awesome affliction healing power! =)

[Zooko]

THAT'S IT! THE POLLS ARE CLOSED!

We will use QM's moderation mods!

I'll go download them.

Independents will have strength 9.

More news as it develops.

[arch_o_median]

So where do we get QM's mods?

[arch_o_median]

Belay my last, I followed my nose, i.e. the (clearly marked) link.

[Zooko]

Final notes about the rules for this game:

Alneyan will assign teams to the spots as indicated by the beauooootiful image at the top of this thread. The winning conditions are that your team wins when both of your enemy teams are dead (a team is dead when both of its pretenders are banished permanently from the world).

As per the beauooootiful map:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
color of team color of enemies
------------- ----------------
blue red, green
green blue, purple
purple green, yellow
yellow purple, red
red yellow, blue
</pre><hr />

As soon as Alneyan creates the game and I set up the server and you connect and see your starting location then you will know what color your team is, but you won't know who is playing your enemy colors. :-)

Needed mods:

Zen's Conceptual Pretender Gods 2.01
Zen's Conceptual Spells 1.8
Zen's Conceptual Scales 1.2
QM's Moderation

Game settings:

Independent Strength 9
Magic sites 45%
Magic research hard

[Zooko]

P.S. If you want e-mail notification from the server whenever a new turn becomes ready, please send me your e-mail address.

[King Lear]

You'll have my pretender by late monday. Sorry for the delay, but my laptop is in the shop and i'm house-sitting so I don't have my desktop. Sigh.

[Zooko]

I have just learned that for Alneyan to create the game for us and set the master password we would all have to e-mail our pretenders to him. I would rather he just set the starting positions and give me the map and I will create the game and start the server. That way people can register their Pretenders by connecting to the server instead of by sending e-mail to Alneyan.

[Aku]

Has Team QM chosen their nations yet?

And remind me again how I email my pretender file.

[The Panther]

They chose Arco/Pan yesterday in a well hidden post announcement...

[Zooko]

You do not need to e-mail a Pretender file.

Instead, Alneyan will make an inland.map file which has starting positions assigned for our teams. He/she/it/TheGreatOne will then send the inland.map file to me. I won't look at it, but I will set up the server and create a game with the right settings. Then we can all connect to the server, and when each of us connects to the server, the god we've chosen will be uploaded to the server (when you click to take control of your nation).

[Zooko]

Right now, before any of us knows what starting positions we will be in, seems like a good time to gossip about the starting positions.

I wonder if Team Purple is at a disadvantage since they are further from each other.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
team # provinces separating them (shortest path)
red 2
blue 2
green 3
purple 4
yellow 4
</pre><hr />

Oh! Yellow is also separated four provinces, although they are smaller ones, so the yellow players are slightly closer to one another.

Anyway, when I laid it out I tried to keep partners near each other, but even more I tried to keep everyone equally distant from their enemies. Of course I couldn't make it perfect, but it came out like this:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
team member # provinces separating enemies (shortest path)
red1 2, 3
red2 2, 3
blue1 2, 2
blue2 2, 3
green1 2, 3
green2 2, 3
purple1 2, 3
purple2 2, 3
yellow1 2, 3
yellow2 3, 4
</pre><hr />

Of course, there are other issues like the water, the different kinds of terrain, etc. I didn't worry too much about stuff since I had very little freedom after trying to get everyone equidistant from their enemies, and having only partial success at that.

Well, I hope you guys enjoy it!

[arch_o_median]

I'm ready!! What're we waiting for?

[Zooko]

1.a. Me to set up the server.
1.b. King Lear to get back on the Net (today late).
2. TOTAL CHAOS

[Aku]

post when the server is up

[Zooko]

The server is now up. Please keep your eyes open for screwups on my part, as I've only run a server once before.

People who sent me their e-mail address (including Tauren) should soon get a test mail from the server.

IP address: dom2s.zooko.com
port: 9999

[quantum_mechani]

Well, if it is not to much trouble it might be nice to put my latest mod version (1.09) on the server.

[Zooko]

Err, uh, right. stay tuned.

[Zooko]

Okay, I upgraded to the latest Moderation mod. No idea how it differs from v1.05 or 1.04 or whatever it was when we adopted it.

[quantum_mechani]

Zooko said:
Okay, I upgraded to the latest Moderation mod. No idea how it differs from v1.05 or 1.04 or whatever it was when we adopted it.

Not a huge amount, mostly further downward price tweaks on units theat were determined still unusable during a blitz test, along with some fixed typos.

[Aku]

did it get updated again because i just dled the moderation mod now and it says version 1.09

[quantum_mechani]

Aku said:
did it get updated again because i just dled the moderation mod now and it says version 1.09

Updated again since when? I have uploaded a few versions in between 1.04 and 1.09.

[Aku]

so i am ok with version 1.09?

[quantum_mechani]

Aku said:
so i am ok with version 1.09?

Yes.

[King Lear]

Ok, so my pretender is in. Sry for any delay. Go Team! =)

[Zooko]

Whoo!

[Turin]

ok Team Arco/pan is in.

[Aku]

Team Hubris will work on our pretenders today.

[Zooko]

Looks like we're waiting for Ermor (of Team Hubris &amp; Aku) and Machaka (of Team King Lear &amp; Ioticus).

[Aku]

Sorry, working on pretender right now.

[Zooko]

Whoo! Nine out of Ten pretenders have connected. The one that is still missing is Machaka.

[ioticus]

I'm not sure about the using the mods. I have pretender mod 2.2. Would that work? What is QM's moderation? Do I need to enable all mods before creating a pretender?

[quantum_mechani]

ioticus said:
I'm not sure about the using the mods. I have pretender mod 2.2. Would that work? What is QM's moderation? Do I need to enable all mods before creating a pretender?

Pretenders 2.2 is the latest version. My mod makes small changes (mostly in gold cost) of light/unusued troops, slightly boosts the mages of weak themes, and somwhehat nerfs Caelum's mages. The overall effect is hopefully to create more viable options. I think only turning on the pretender mod for pretender creation is really needed, but you might as well do the rest to be on the safe side.

[ioticus]

So would I be OK to use pretender mod 2.2 or do I need to hunt down 2.1?

[Aku]

just need the most current so pretenders 2.2 is fine

[ioticus]

I can't find the QM mod. Where is it?

[Zooko]

Search in the text of this thread for "Moderation mod".

[ioticus]

Zooko said:
Search in the text of this thread for "Moderation mod".



Still can't find it. Could someone provide a link or attach it to a post?

[quantum_mechani]

Here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=366088&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

[ioticus]

I uploaded my pretender. Am I supposed to select "start game" now?

[Zooko]

Sure! Click "start game"! :-)

[Zooko]

Whoops, I apparently forgot to set magic research to Hard.

Do you guys want to go ahead and play with default magic research levels, or do you want me to restart and everyone will have to reupload their Pretender?

[Zooko]

Also I see that the world richness level is "2". I don't know what the default value of richness is. Sorry about that.

[quantum_mechani]

2 is default. I don't care one way or the other on research.

[Aku]

just leave the research, it really doesnt matter much

if we were playing very difficult research then i would say lets upload again but between normal and hard isnt a big deal

[ioticus]

I went to start the game and all positions are open again. Was the server reset?

[The Panther]

All you have to do is select your nation and go.

And by the way, that is very annoying to have the game on normal research. I definitely would have used a different pretender under those settings. Yet another reason why PBEM is better than TCP/IP...

[Zooko]

Well, I didn't restart the server.

When the game started then next time I connected I had to choose which of the 10 nations to play. I think that's the way the game is designed.

[Zooko]

Panther: your point about designing your Pretender for the settings that we had agreed on is a compelling point. I will restart the game with the agreed settings.

Sorry for the delay.

[Zooko]

Okay, now everybody has to reconnect and re-upload their Pretenders. The last person to do so should click "Start Game" and take their first turn!

[ioticus]

I agree PBEM is much superior to TCP/IP. I'm surprised more people don't use it.

[quantum_mechani]

ioticus said:
I agree PBEM is much superior to TCP/IP. I'm surprised more people don't use it.

eh, the only advantage I see of PBEM is if no-one has a 24h online computer to host.

[Cainehill]

And if people hosting server-based games would back up the pretenders before starting the game, it would be possible to back things up and restart with the proper settings.

Whereas even PBEM won't help, if the host saves the .2h files containing the pretenders in the game directory and throws away the email after.

[Zooko]

Good idea. I'll back up the .2h files as they arrive.

I wonder what all these .2h files in the newlords/ subdirectory are for... They are not identical to the .2h files that people have uploaded. Hm.

[Zooko]

Okay we now have eight of ten Pretenders re-uploaded. I will make backups of the pretender .2h files before starting the game, so if we have to restart again you will not re-upload your Pretenders.

The two Pretenders that haven't been re-uploaded yet are for Man and C'tis.

[King Lear]

Uploading Man's today

[ioticus]

I tried to start the game and I got an error of conceptp201.dm could not be found. What do I have to do next?

[Cainehill]

Someone (you?) didn't use / have the 2.01 version of Zen's pretender mod, which I don't believe was really intended for general release. Then again, 2.1 and 2.2 (the latest) aren't even on Zen's own site, and the Conceptual Balance thread was never updated to have a single place to get the latest versions either.

Everyone should have, and be using when they create the pretenders, the same exact version of the Pretender mod. Then again, the information about the mods y'all are supposed to be using is kinda buried on page ... 4(?) of this thread, so it's not that surprising people didn't all get synchronized.

Since I have no clue about where to direct y'all to get a proper version of 2.01 (again, I'd recommend using Pretenders 2.2 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=355449)), I'm attaching a copy that I hadn't yet bothered to delete from my local Dominions folder.

In case people don't have the other Zen mods they'll need, I've got a post in here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=355219&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=31&amp;fpart=2&amp;vc=1) with links to the latest versions of Zen's mods.

Edit : Note that if the game has been started, someone may have a zero magic archmage or some such for a pretender, as the "cheat" detection does that when a pretender is submitted whose point cost doesn't match what it thinks it should be. So : everyone may need to send a new pretender if y'all don't want a gimp pretender on one team. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

2.01 is the edited version of 2.0, so those two are equivalent for all relevant purposes. If you picked the wrong one, just copy your 2.0X mod and rename it. 2.01 can be found at Arryn's site, along with 2.2 I guess. Of course, 2.2 does make changes, so that trick of renaming won't work here.

Don't worry though, the Uber Archmage (it does tend to have great physical stats... for an Archmage, that is) only appears if you used more than 500 points; if you used fewer than that, you will simply have lost some points. Most Pretenders should be fine though.

[Zooko]

Okay, I have all the pretenders backed up here, so if ioticus wants to remake a Pretender using the right mod I can restart the game after he re-uploads his Pretender.

I offer this because it isn't fair to ioticus to have a non-Zen-mod Pretender.

However, if ioticus wants to take me up on this offer he should hurry!

[The Panther]

If he made the pretender under 2.0 and we are using 2.01, then it will work just fine. Of course, I must admit that I don't know exactly which pretender mod we are using. I have been much too busy lately to pay close attention.

[Zooko]

2.01.

I'll move that info up into the first message on the thread.

[Zooko]

Okay, let's get started! I'm guessing that Ioticus's Pretender is fine and doesn't need to be re-uploaded.

:-)

[Hubris]

I don't have 2.01, I have 2.2. Where do I get 2.01?

[ioticus]

I re-uploaded my pretender using 2.01. I hope everything is OK now.

[King Lear]

Hubris, you can find it at Zen's dominions page,
http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/

Find the 2.0 and change its name as suggested just above, to 201 and you should be fine.

[Cainehill]

Hubris said:
I don't have 2.01, I have 2.2. Where do I get 2.01?



Or grab the copy I attached to my post a few messages back in this thread.

[quantum_mechani]

Arg, I put in my pretender using 2.2 before all this about 2.01, I left it in because I didn't read carefully assumed it meant we were restarting with 2.2. Now it gave me a pretender with 490 points leftover. If you think the game has been delayed too many times already, though, I understand.

[Zooko]

Okay, the fastest way to get going (aside from telling quantum_mechani to live with a worthless Pretender), is for quantum_mechani to create a Pretender with 2.01 and re-upload. I'll reset everyone *else's* Pretender except for his. If ioticus manages to re-upload a new Pretender too then he gets a fresh start too.

So in short:

a) quantum_mechani make a Pretender with 2.01 and re-connect
b) ioticus if you care do the same -- you probably don't care
c) everyone else sit tight

[Zooko]

Okay I've restarted the server. The game is now named "2x2x2x2x2c". I put everyone's pretender back except for Machaka, Pangaea, and Man. Machaka is ioticus, and either Pangaea or Man is quantum_mechani. After quantum_mechani uploads a pretender to either Pangaea or Man, and I notice that he has done so, then I will put back the original Pretender for whichever one he didn't upload and put back the original Pretender for Machaka (unless ioticus has uploaded a new Pretender for Machaka by then).

Then the game will re-re-start.

I anticipate that this will be a fairly fast-moving, interesting, action-packed game once we get started.

Remember that I do not plan on changing the server schedule for anybody. If you can't make your turn on a 48-hour quickhost schedule then ask you partner to make that turn for you. If neither of you can do it then ask a friend to do it. If you don't have a friend that will do it then as some random Dominions 2 player on this BBS to do it.

Anything is better than asking the other eight players to wait for you.

[Turin]

quantum is arco btw. My pretender worked fine even though I created him with 2.2.

[quantum_mechani]

In. Thanks for taking the time to restart.

[Turin]

arg. I accidently started the game. Sorry, machaka was still missing.

[Zooko]

I'll restart it.

[Zooko]

Okay, the game is re-re-re-started. Everyone should probably check your Pretender. Mine looks good. :-)

[The Panther]

Only Machaka left to play.

I seem to be in a time warp, having played that exact same turn over and over and over!

I kept hoping to get a better starting spot, but it never happened...

[Zooko]

(Bwoo the Great studies the map, trying to infer which starting spot Panther, Prince of Light, Feeder on Impurity, Eater of Filth, Prince of Patience, got, and whether that makes Panther an enemy or a competitor.)

By the way, I observed that Hannibal the mercenary, employed by Arcoscephale, has suddenly gained much experience (but no kills).

[Aku]

Team Hubris is Team E does that mean we have to kill Teams A and D?

[Zooko]

Err, yes, it does. Except that I'm not sure which one "E" is on this map. In any case, you definitely have to kill the two teams adjacent to your team.

[King Lear]

Um.. a querry, So the teams portrayed in the first post on this forum are not actually the teams who might have to be fighting each other? If so, it all makes sense.

[Zooko]

Fixed the first post to be slightly less confusing.

[Zooko]

By the way, the automated e-mailing of new turn announcements is working. If you would rather get an e-mail from "The Chronicler of the Ascension War" instead of connecting to the server over and over and checking to see if a new turn is ready, then send me your e-mail address.

[Zooko]

There are two people who haven't done their turn yet -- Pangaea and Machaka. The timer is down to 9 hours. By the time I wake up tomorrow, the new turn will be ready!

[quantum_mechani]

Now it's just Pan out, I would do his turn but I never got his password.

[Turin]

Sorry I am away from home currently and forgot to bring my dom2 cd, I have sent q_m my pass via email, but I guess it´s too late. I will be back home tonight though.

[Zooko]

Okay. Sorry about that. Everyone should probably go ahead and share passwords with their teammates now. Also this enables you to view your teammates turns.

[The Panther]

I did my turn and now I will be out until Wednesday evening. My son can make my turn for me if there is a looming deadline before then.

[Zooko]

Wow -- not only did Arcoscephale hire Hannibal the Elephant Captain, but suddenly this month Arcoscephale's God Peneios of the Four Names leapt into the Hall of Fame!

My scouts have reported that Arcoscephale started in the South-Eastern Purple Province.

Does anyone else know something about this upstart Pretender?

[The Panther]

When is this next turn due?

And no, I don't know squat about the Arco pretender. I don't even know anything about my own pretender! How did he do? Is he at the top of the HoF now? Or did he die again? I can't even remember if I was attacking an easy province or the hard one!!!

Oh, the horrors of not having a computer to see what is happening!

By the way, my computer did not survive my move last weekend. I think moving 3 times in 9 months was just too much for the old thing. It appears I now have a computer with a non-functioning motherboard...

*Yuck*

[Zooko]

14 hours

Can Tauren do your turn for you?

I did the turn for my partner, Arc, since he is moving and his computer is still packed away.

[King Lear]

Sorry Panther, I think he died. Its very sad. Must have been a hard province. Now, where are you at? Does the loss of your pretender cripple your forces... hm.

[Zooko]

So, we're down to three hours on the 48 hour quickhost clock. Are you guys going to make your moves, or persuade someone else to do it for you? I already allowed Turin to miss his turn, in keeping with my announced policy of not-stopping-the-clock, so it would be somewhat unfair if I now relented and stopped the clock so that you guys wouldn't miss your turns.

[Hubris]

We may even want to consider restarting this game. I would hate to win or lose because someone's target didn't play the first X turns.

[Zooko]

Panther and Tauren missed their turn.

Yes, I'm open to restarting this game. I had thought that with the team-mate aspect of it that we could be merciless with the clock and people would still be able to make all their turns (or least all of their first ten!).

But things are never so simple, eh?

If Turin, Panther, and Tauren ask for a restart, I'll do it. I'll recreate the ftherland file and reinstall the Pretender files that you guys already uploaded, so that there will be new random Independents and random magic sites and all that, but nobody will need to re-upload Pretenders.

[Hubris]

Well, we need to reconsider timing and stuff. If they're missing their turns now, they're going to miss them tomorrow and the day after as well most likely.

We need some assurances from everyone that they're playing and not going to stale their first turns again, or we need to find new teams.

[Turin]

One missed turn isn´t a big deal. I vote for continuing. If Panther and tauren both aren´t able to make their turns though in subsequent turns we should restart.

[Zooko]

By the way, Panther is still at the top of the Hall of Fame, with only one death, beating out the upstart Peneios.

[The Panther]

I should hopefully be back up and running this evening. Because my old computer quit working, I bought a new one last night. Also, cable is supposed to be installed this afternoon at my new house, so I should not miss any more turns. I am delaying in all my other games, but those are PBEM and therefore not a problem. It is far easier to stale in TCP/IP, which is why I much prefer the PBEM method. I just don't have the time to always get my turns done on time, especially with my recent massive life changes and all. I do hope my RL settles down soon...

As for Tauren, he started college less than a month ago and has been very busy since then. I know he is behind on some of his other Dominion games. He likely staled because the email notification on this game does not seem to be working properly. I do know that he plans to cut back his Dominions games and was regretting his decision to enter this game because it was TCP/IP based. Until the notification system starts working, you can expect additional stales, as neither of us are used to TCP/IP games anymore.

I will be driving up to my son's school on Friday to visit him. On Saturday in his dorm room, I should be able to make my moves in all my Domionions games (except RAND) on his computer, but no guarantees on this.

I did warn everybody that there was no possible way I could make my moves until today, so no one should be surprised that I staled. I am glad to see that my pretender has only one death and is at the top of the HoF, so I obviously won that tough battle a turn ago. Of course, our team losing a turn to everybody will hurt.

I will let you all know on Sunday evening when I return home if Tauren and I will be able to continue this game or not. It really depends on just how busy he is at school. Heck, I have not even seen a post from him on this forum in weeks, which is highly unusual for him. Perhaps I can find a new partner (I bet Boron would be interested) if Tauren cannot continue.

I sure would appreciate ending the forced hosting from this game, though. I would also appreciate rolling back the latest turn, but I fully understand if no one wants to do that.

[Zooko]

Well, the reason that this game has forced hosting isn't because it is a TCP/IP game, but because I chose to make forced-hosting the policy. Perhaps that was a mistake.

I could certainly change the hosting policy so that we would delay in order to let people catch up.

I guess my first two preferences at this point are:

1. Restart the game (regenerating the fatherland file but keeping the pretenders), changing the policy so that people do not *have* to make their moves within the time limit on pain of losing their turn, or

2. Restart the whole game-setup process, starting with inviting five teams of two to join, and specifying that only players who want to play 48-hour quickhost with no exceptions should join this game.

I prefer option #1. If anybody strongly prefers option #2 (which may mean that Panther and Tauren will drop out), then please post about it here.

I'll give this issue a day or so to settle before I decide.

[ioticus]

My solution to all the problems is PBEM!

[Zooko]

I think that the issue of whether hosting is forced or not is separate from the issue of whether turns are transmitted by TCP or by e-mail.

I can easily restart the server and set it to not force hosting until everyone's turns are in. Also I can (perhaps less easily) fix the damn e-mail notification service.

If I did those two things, then the server would have all of the features that you desire from PBEM, right?

Regards,

Zooko the Host

[ioticus]

Zooko said:
I think that the issue of whether hosting is forced or not is separate from the issue of whether turns are transmitted by TCP or by e-mail.

I can easily restart the server and set it to not force hosting until everyone's turns are in. Also I can (perhaps less easily) fix the damn e-mail notification service.

If I did those two things, then the server would have all of the features that you desire from PBEM, right?

Regards,

Zooko the Host



Not really. TCP seems to be plagued with problems. PBEM is much more reliable.

[Zooko]

Can you give me another example of a problem, besides the two known problems:

1. We had to re-upload our Pretenders upon restart (a problem now fixed since I have saved the Pretenders this time),
1. Forced-hosting has caused three players to miss their turns already (a problem that will be fixed by turning off forced-hosting), and
2. People are not receiving e-mail notifications of turns (although it worked at least once, it is currently broken).

If you have any other examples of problems in server operation I would like to know what they are in case I can thus fix them.

[King Lear]

PBEM may be more reliable (and I for one agree that it seems to be), but it can be a pain for who-ever is incharge of the server for it.

I'm going on vacation for a week. ioticus, i've already sent you my password (pm - man). Do as you think best =)

Oh, and if everyone decides that starting over makes sense, you'll have to give me a week and a half: ie till next Saturday, to upload a pretender. Sorry =(

[Zooko]

I believe that I can re-start the game without requiring anyone to upload a Pretender, since I made copies of the Pretenders. However, I've never done so before so I don't know if I did it right.

I'm kind of waiting to hear from Panther and Tauren before I decide whether to restart.

[The Panther]

Hey, I did finally manage to get online late yesterday evening. I loaded Dominions on my new computer and even upgraded to V1.6. However, I was unable to find all the proper mods before I had to get some sleep.

One of the mods I was unable to find was pretender 2.01. Cainehill had attached this mod in this thread long ago, but that attachment was blank. I also found it posted by Cherry in the Zen mod thread, but that was a .rar file which I cannot currently read. I would appreciate if someone would attach this mod in a post here. Alternatively, I think that copying Pretender 2.0 as 2.01 works, and I may try that this evening.

As for the game, I have still to hear from my son about what he wants to do, but I will be seeing him tomorrow. If it turns out that he does not have time for this game, I could try to find a new partner.

[Turin]

copying 2.0 as 2.01 works unless there are changes to your pretender in 2.01 which isn´t likely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif .

[Zooko]

Okay, my current preference is that we keep going on this game -- Panther and Tauren and Turin having missed one turn -- and I turn off forced-hosting.

And I fix the e-mail notification.

I'll go turn off forced hosting.

[The Panther]

It looks like everything is working out for me with my new system. I did my move, the turn hosted, and I then did my next move.

[Zooko]

E-mail notification is still broken. I'll work on that.

[Zooko]

I think I fixed e-mail notification.

I have now fixed all three of the "problems with TCP/IP games" that we discussed earlier. If anybody has any other suggestions about how to improve the serving of this game I'd like to hear it.

Regards,

Zooko the Hosto

[Zooko]

I see that Panther has been overtaken in the Hall of Fame by that upstart Peneios.

Now if I only knew whether either of them were my enemies then I would know whether to worry about a sudden strike by a super powerful Pretender...

[Hubris]

Wait a minute. I understand the halting now. I understand we're waiting for Panther to get his computer up and running, that's fine.

However, once his computer is working... why no clock?

[Zooko]

It was as per Panther's request.

Now that you've expressed concern -- I was a bit concerned about it too -- I'm going to set it back to 48 quickhost, but if someone notifies me via e-mail or via a post to this list that something has come up and neither they nor their partner can make moves then I'll stop the clock for them.

[ioticus]

I thought of another reason I dislike TCP. It's too easy to accidently upload your turn before you're ready.

[archaeolept]

you can still reupload, unless you were last, in which case tough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zooko]

Ioticus: that's a good point.

It's a reasonable Wishlist Item For Dom3 to "uncommit" your move.

[Zooko]

Someone had presumptiously conquered an Independent province that Bwoo the Great of T'ien Ch'i had been intending to Enlighten. That province has now been properly Enlightened.

[Zooko]

Dear Red Team and Yellow Team:

To each of your peace-loving nations We, Bwoo and Stavros the Great Ones, extend Our heartfelt greetings and well-wishes.

We observe that while the Divine Will of Heaven and Earth have indicated that Purple Team and Blue Team must be utterly destroyed and eradicated from the land, it is likewise necessary for the Great Order Of Things that Red and Yellow survive and prosper in their appointed places.

Therefore, if there is any aid or intelligence that We can offer to you, our beloved brothers (or sisters as the case may be), please do not hesitate to call upon Us.

Affectionately,

Bwoo and Stavros the Great Ones

[The Panther]

ioticus said:
I thought of another reason I dislike TCP. It's too easy to accidently upload your turn before you're ready.



Ioticus - The best method for playing TCP/IP is as follows:
1. Connect to the game and select your nation.
2. Immediately exit the network game WITHOUT saving anything. To be safe, I always hit the little box with the 'X' in the upper right corner.
3. Open Dominions from your desktop, load the correct saved game, and play your turn to your heart's content.
4. When you are happy with your turn, go back to the network game and connect again.
5. Your new turn will automatically upload into the server.

This avoids the annoying procedure of accidently ending your network turn without doing anything.

Panther

[ioticus]

The Panther said:

ioticus said:
I thought of another reason I dislike TCP. It's too easy to accidently upload your turn before you're ready.



Ioticus - The best method for playing TCP/IP is as follows:
1. Connect to the game and select your nation.
2. Immediately exit the network game WITHOUT saving anything. To be safe, I always hit the little box with the 'X' in the upper right corner.
3. Open Dominions from your desktop, load the correct saved game, and play your turn to your heart's content.
4. When you are happy with your turn, go back to the network game and connect again.
5. Your new turn will automatically upload into the server.

This avoids the annoying procedure of accidently ending your network turn without doing anything.

Panther



That helps. Thanks.

[Turin]

hmm I seem to be struck by a rather annoying bug. My positive scales order 3 and growth 3 have mysteriously vanished in my capital, despite having lvl 5 dominion there all the time.
I hope they come back sometime, but they have been missing for 3 turns now.

[Zooko]

I could try stopping and re-running the turn, but from what I recall it won't help with that annoying bug. Sorry. :-/

[King Lear]

Anyone else having trouble acessing the server?

[Zooko]

Yes, I suspect there's a networking problem in my area. I'll keep you informed as I learn what's up.

[Hubris]

Wow. Both my games are down at once. How nerve-wracking.

[Zooko]

Server back up. Power outage. Sorry.

I'm unable to connect due to mysterious failure, but my bro is commanding both of our nations in my absence.

Red Team and Yellow Team should feel free to ask us for help and information.

--Bwoo The Fantastic God

[Zooko]

Okay, I have once again gained direct control over my nation and my brother Stavros is no longer acting as my intermediary.

[Zooko]

Sorry about the lack of e-mail notification last turn. I've finally figured out the secret: If you pass "-preexec scriptname" then nothing will happen, but if you pass "-postexec scriptname", then it will work. So e-mail notification will probably work from now on.

I know that at least one person staled last turn. I'm sorry about that.

[The Panther]

Are you going to back up the turn one move?

[Zooko]

Sure. Just a minute.

[Zooko]

Err, actually the e-mail announcements and the "recording backup copies of turns" were both connected to the same hook -- "-preexec" -- and so I don't have a backup copy of turn 19, so the best I could do would be to revert to turn 18, and that's too much.

I'm very sorry, Panther, but I'm going to leave the game going in turn 20.

[Zooko]

By the way, I've reported the behavior of "-preexec" in the bug thread.

[Zooko]

I updated the first post in this thread to show the locations of all teams, since I've now figured them out and I'm hereby telling everyone else.

[Zooko]

My brother Arc is volunteering in Hurricane Katrina relief efforts, so the game is going somewhat slowly, as I wait til the last minute before I do his turn for him, since I don't know when he will return home and start playing again.

[Zooko]

Tien Chi is engaged in a titanic struggle against the combined forces of Pangaea and Arcoscephale. Last month they had conquered all but two of our provinces, but this month we defeated two small armies and won back some territory.

Let it be known that all citizens of the nations formerly known as Pangaea and Arcoscephale will be treated fairly and paid a reasonable wage once their nations are properly Enlightened.

Regards,

Bwoo the Enlightener

[Zooko]

Dear Unspecified Enemy:

Heh heh. That death match was a pretty stupid move on my part. I was imagining some big beefy opponent, not a swarm of 30 skeletons. :-/

I think if I had told my 13 Demons of Heavenly Fires to fire at Large Enemy Monsters instead of at Enemy Cavalry, then your Pretender would have died.

But anyway, I have to give you credit for a brilliant tactical reversal by bringing in a bunch of HARPIES of all things! If it hadn't been for those damned harpies then I either would have won and destroyed you, or I would have lost but left you with almost no army remaining...

[Turin]

dear very specified enemy, I had built the harpies only to patrol my home proovince and defend against the siege mostly, so no tactical brilliance on my part.
I had to break the siege that turn, because my lab got destroyed in my capital, so there wasn´t much left for me to do there.

[Zooko]

Ah. Lucky you then! The harpies slew both of my death mages, rendering my Spirits helpless (they also quickly slew all of my other mages except for Lu. Ouch!). Without Spirit support, the Demons were no match for your fierce Centaurs and Pretender. If the Spirit support had been there, then my noble Demons would have dealt out more damage than they did.

I'm glad to hear of the fire in your lab. I'll reward my saboteurs handsomely in gold and magical trinkets.

[Zooko]

Okay, so the glorious Empire of Tien Chi has shrunk to a single capitol province, and is surrounded by infidel Pegasus Riders and woodland beastmen. However, we implore all citizens currently subjugated by those aggressors to keep hope and keep the white candles of Bwooism burning brightly.

Our remaining Celestial Masters are preparing a new strategy to liberate and Enlighten all of Greater Tien Chi.

[The Panther]

By the way, it seems that the server is down.

[Zooko]

I had a server problem. It is now fixed. Sorry for the interruption of service.

[Zooko]

We're down to 60 minutes until forced hosting, and Man, Ulm, and Marignon have all not-yet taken their turns. Actually I can do Ulm on behalf of my brother, but that would leave Man and Marignon. So, since there was this extended interruption of the server yesterday, I'll reset the clock for 12 more hours. This will also give my brother a chance to do his own turn.

[Zooko]

Abysia and Man both suffered from absent Rulers this month. The Grand Vizier of each nation took over, and instructed all citizens to continue doing whatever the Pretender had told them to do last month.

[Zooko]

Also, the Pretender of Man hasn't been responding to the messengers I've been sending him. Is he permanently absent? Is the nation of Man critically wounded?

[Turin]

man is pretty much dead. he´s down to his fortress and one province and lost most of his mages in a breakout attempt.

[Zooko]

Ah, so this makes it more likely that Team Tauren+Panther or Team Turin+QM will win.

Go, Ioticus! Surely Machaka is powerful enough to singlehandedly defeat all enemies!

[The Panther]

Machaka is in a tough battle with Arco. Hard to say who has the upper hand, but I think the Man/Machaka team is nearly down for the count.

Tauren (Abysia) will probably be staling for a bit while he is moving over the next few days. I almost did his move for him, but I had no idea if he wanted to storm the Man capitol or not, so I declined to do anything. I do not have the slightest idea what army is inside the Man capitol.

I have my hands full with endless undead with 3 strategic moves. Did I ever mention how much I hate to fight Ermor? I have killed maybe 200 undead riders, and there is at least that many still around, for I have been unable to kill even one single commander other than his immortal pretender (who did not have the decency to stay dead). Most of my troops are starving and diseased from lack of proper supplies. My income has been trashed. I don't think I am in danger of being eliminated soon or anything like that, but both Marignon and Ermor will come out of this war very weak, no matter who gets the upper hand.

I also think that T'ien Ch'i is in very bad shape, from what my spies can see.

The stales have been a problem for sure for our team. Both my son and I are chock full of RL these days, and a 2 day forced schedule is problematic at best. This would have been a lot better game under PBEM, in my opinion.

The only thing to do is keep plugging away until the game is over.

[The Panther]

By the way, I would have to say that the Arco/Pan team has this thing mostly won. With Man nearly dead, Machaka will soon die from a 2 on 1 (it has already begun). And with TC nearly dead, Ulm will also soon follow. This would be the end of the game when those 4 are dead.

Ermor and I are in a huge death battle with neither side dying soon. After Man is gone, Abysia will probably jump on C'tis, but I believe C'tis is currently unscathed and will take an immense amount of effort to kill. The only good thing for Abysia is that all his powerful devils are immmune to the Miasmi.

At this point, I don't see any possible path for the Abysia/Marignon or the C'tis/Ermor team reaching victory by destroying the other team.

[Zooko]

Hm. I may be fooling myself, but I don't perceive the Tien Chi/Ulm team as really down for the count...

[Zooko]

Panther: what if it were quickhost with no forced-hosting time-limit? I, too, have been disappointed to see lots of stales in this game (including on my team).

Also I think a game like this ought to have score graphs on.

Any other ideas about how to improve my hosting?

[Zooko]

Another idea: I could set it up so that players could participate *either* via e-mail or via TCP, at their choice. Would that be cool?

[The Panther]

Actually, Zooko, you have been a good host. The limitations lie in the TCP/IP method. As I see it, there are but 2 options:
1. Forced hosting. No matter the host schedule, there will always be stales. This is true of every single TCP/IP game I have ever played.
2. No QH option. The problem with this method is that the game can easily die when people drop out or leave on vacation or their computer dies or just plain whatever. Eventually, such games must move to QH option if they ever intend to finish.

On the ther hand, PBEM gives the host complete control over the schedule. If somebody is gone for the weekend, the host knows this and can delay a day or so. If somebody is out for a week or more, a sub can be arranged instead of automatically forcing stales. The host always has the option to force stales for non-responsive players, so the game never has to completely die.

If I had unlimited time (retired) and I was waiting every day just to play Dominions, I would prefer TCP/IP. But few people have this kind of time in RL (I don't). It seems that something always is happenning in RL, and often unexpectedly to boot.

I have not staled as yet in any of my PBEM games, even when I went on vacation to France in June and then my computer died in early August. These kind of things will happen.

The Song of the Blade game went into haitus for weeks while Alneyan was fixing his system. We had many a message to determine how the remaining players wanted to handle this before deciding to wait. PBEM allows for this. TCP/IP does also, but the impersonal nature of that hosting method makes it far harder to actually make things like this happen.

As for our 2v2v2v2v2 game, my spy has left the TC homeland and perhaps that nation has since recovered. If TC is not near death, then there is still more game to play. If TC dies, then Ulm will have big trouble (actually I really mean no hope) in the eventual 2 on 1. My comments were based on the assumption that TC cannot recover from the extensive invasion of his homeland.

[Zooko]

I see. Thanks for the explanation about the hosting issues.

Also, thanks for the compliment about my hosting.

[Zooko]

Ah, well, if Tien Chi can recover from the insult to our sovereignty is still in question. It will help plenty if Machaka will put up a stiff fight against Pangaea. :-)

[Zooko]

It's T-6 hours and those busy busy real life Tauren and Panther haven't committed their turns. I'm planning to reset the clock for them if it gets down to 1 hour or so and no signs of life.

[Zooko]

Well, the great Tien Chi resurgence to dislodge the Pangaean oppressor is going well, but our sister Ulm is being invaded by not one but two masses of nasty undead. One army has a Saurolich and about ten Marshmasters summoning hordes of skeletons. The other army has almsot 600 Ermorian undead.

Does anyone have any advice on how to resist such an onslaught?