need help in a sniper nest assault

[Nightblade]

Hello,

I am playing the Vietnam campaign that comes with WinSP:MBT.

On the first battle, i "bought" some marine squads with Iroquois helicopters and a SEAL team + pathfinder.
Approaching carefully (1 case each turns) the objectives of the middle of the map , i noticed 3 squads of vietcong units entrenched.

My Iroquois opened fire with their machineguns , enough to put the vietcong units in "retreat" or "rout" behaviour , so i could make an approach with 2 Marine squads .

We took the position rather easily and destroyed the entrenched vietcongs squads, thanks to the support fire from the Iroquois.

But when i tried to continue the 1 case by turn movement toward the objective , one of the Marine squad "revealed" a distant spider nest (in fact when the snider nest opened fire on my squad).

After noticing this nest was able to fire to every directions, i tried an approach from the forest (as it was the only cover available) while 3 of my Iroquois fired at the nest each turn (the other were patrolling to see if any enemy units were around).

I lost a whole Marine squad in a turn after they came in contact to this nest (i made the mistake to -not- notice that the Iroquois rain of bullets was in fact totally useless) and before they could open fire , thanks to the booby traps the guys from the nest throwed at us.
I decided to learn the lesson and launched a smoke grenade in the case (adjacent to the nest) i wanted my other Marine squad to attack.

It was there that i noticed the Iroquois fires were totally useless in every ways against those sniper nest, unlike what they did with the entrenched units (of course no penetration but i was not counting on this, but the nest was always in "ready, dug in" state despite all the Iroquois bullets going in its hexagon each turns).

Hoping that the smoke would be enough if the bullets were useless, i launched the smoke grenade then moved to the smoked case (1 case by turns, always) and again i lost the whole Marine squad with this damn "booby trap" attack from the sniper nest.

In the south , i applied the same exact "cautious move in forest" + "smoke before attack" in the adjacent hexagon to finally destroy successfully (with a seal team) a bunker (not a sniper nest) without a loss.

So here is the question : while i think i have the good tactic to destroy bunker with minimum casualties (as my assault in the south of the map showed) ,i am clueless on how to approach and destroy a sniper nest in this vietnam era of the campaign without artillery and no apc/tanks/AT units.
Is there something i overlooked ?

In any case, i welcome any tactical help on this situation.

[DRG]

I have heard complaints in the past about spider holes and they are NOT invulnerable super positions

I have attached a save game. Press replay and watch how it's done

Engage the SpiderHole with long range MG or sniper fire while moving regular infantry closer using natural cover or smoke. When it's fully engaged with your suppressive units (i.e. with the MG or the sniper or whoever else is in the area and in decent cover) and you have soaked up all it's reaction shots in long range duels ( it only gets 6 the same as you do ) then move your infantry in for the kill. It's handy to have engineers with Flame and satchel weaponry. I lost two men killing that position. Note helos were not involved

[Arralen]

Yeah - you lost 2 men of 3 of that M60 squad. Been lucky. Try it again. Next time the sniper turret of the spider hole gets luckier and kills the 3rd man, too. And what about Marine Squad I1 - looks like they lost 2 men, too ?

And that was an "easy" spider hole - you could fire at it with a wole bunch of units at 300m+. Try again with the second one @100m http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Lemme see - why is spider hole an ueberunit?

It has plenty of armor - pales every armored vehicle, and most non-concrete bunkers.

It has size 0 - nearly not hittable.

It is turreted - firing into 360°

It has "booby traps" with the firepower of 380mm gun and range 1. Not one, not 2 ... 6(!) shots, effectivly preventing the use of grenades/charges until heavily suppressed. In fact, preventing any attack if placed into the middle of a wood - every squad moving adjecent to be actually able to see it will be blown to pieces...

It has rangefinder and fire control 10 ... hey, the VC rarely has a sniper that good - all of them must be hiding in that holes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


=> Big armor and no hits mean: no suppression. Try to suppress it with accurate 50mm mortar fire (spotter!). Will not work.
=> Using smoke will not work, either - you simply can't move into the neighbouring hex (placements in area with restricted visibility)

Conclusion:
- Remove the booby trap, or make it range-0. It simply does not fit in the game engine restrictions. If the scenario designer wants to prevent the player to let his engineers creep up to the bunker, he should use barbed wire and mines as provided by the game. "Inventing" them again does not really work, and isn't necessary at all.
- Scale down FC and RngF .. anyone hiding in deep holes and only emerging now and then will not have that exact bearing on targets (of opportunity)
- make it size-1 at least. Size-0 is "reserved" for single snipers and scouts. A fortified position may be hard to spot, but it can't run away (switch to alternate firing position).

[loktarr]

I have done the whole caimpain without problem with those spider holes...
When you start the caimpain you are supposed to bought a whole Marines Co, with snipers, scoots and arty support.
In the first mission I did bought for support 105mm and 155mm ones...
Then I have moved with snipers at the head, just after bombardement finished, usualy, spider holes where pinned when I arrived in position, I suppressed them with MG's fire when possible, then with snipers that are quite never detected when firing from covered positions, and then I finished the work with scoot assaulting from adjacent hexe or with demo teams...
I have never lost more than 4 mens that way, and it was the consequence of a stupid error...
Try that way and I think there should be no more problem...

[Nightblade]

Thank you for your answers.

After viewing the save game, i tried myself and noticed that i was right : 1 MG unit+1 sniper are able to put the spider nest in "pinned down" situation.
In my previous battle situation 3 Iroquois MG firing without stopping during several turns are not able to have it "pinned down" despite they sometime hit (with no penetration of course).

And that was my problem, as it is impossible to assault a spider nest if it is not pinned down, the "booby trap" weapon from the guy inside of the spider nest is a "squad kill" weapon.

I am not really understanding why so much armor to such unit, but following the saved game i tried to assault the 2nd spider nest using the MG+sniper tactic, but from the entrenched position to its north (for cover).

After pinning down the sniper nest 2 times (it took +/- 3 turns of full fire on the nest to pin it down once), i succeeded to move in contact 2 marine squad 2 times (so 4 assaults in total)
for the precision, the marines were at 1 or 2 suppression level for each assault.

It failed 4 time and at the end , it made the 2 Marine Squad annhilated by the spider nest booby traps (as after each assaults it was back in "ready, dug in" stance).

So i can accept the fact people say those spider nest are not "invulnerable".

But considering the time in turns it takes to just destroy one, how easy it is to fail an assault, and the huge losses in the assaulter ranks due to the booby trap retaliation, they are way better than any kind of bunker i ever met in the 1960/70 battles in the game if you have no artillery or no APC.

[loktarr]

I'll try it again and tell you exactly what I'm doing...

[DRG]

Arralen said:
Yeah - you lost 2 men of 3 of that M60 squad. Been lucky. Try it again. Next time the sniper turret of the spider hole gets luckier and kills the 3rd man, too. And what about Marine Squad I1 - looks like they lost 2 men, too ?

And that was an "easy" spider hole - you could fire at it with a wole bunch of units at 300m+. Try again with the second one @100m http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




I did , it died just as quick with about the same losses and the first one did .

I did NOT need a "whole bunch of units" all I needed was for it to react to my firing 6 times and the way to lower the effectiveness of reaction fire is to ensure every time it reacts it in a different direction and it reacts from as great a distance as you can manage. Once you have squads ready to move adjacent and it runs out of reaction or opfire you don't have to worry about the booby traps and they die quite easily. With the second spider hole I was surpressing it from about 150 metres not 300+

Suppression from MG and sniper and one other squad then I moved in close with three regular marine squads and it died when a marine squad attacked it as reaction fire when the spider hole opfired on a squad that was moving in it's LOS.

When you and I attack the same thing and get different results it's not the game it's the players technique. I've heard all this before and every time get one of these complaints I haul that sceanrio out and buy Marines and engage spider holes and defeat them and wonder ( yet again!! )what all the fuss is about. Now, this has happened about 6 times so it's getting a bit old for me but I do it because the game has changed since this campaign was first built and I need to assure myself that everythings working as it should ( and it is ). The spider holes work exactly the way they always have and manage to baffle a few players every release. They are NOT invulnerable and even if you simply cannot get a grip on how to defeat them the simple solution is to blind them with smoke and by-pass them becasue they are fixed in place and won't come running after you.

I ended that first scenario with about 20 casualties and a decisive victory. EVERY TIME I have to test this spider hole complaint the same thing happens. They die. It's a bit of work and a few casualties are taken but they always die

Don

[Arralen]

I never said they cannot be dealt with. But they are way to good and in no way anywhere near reality.
Do a little googling on "spider hole". You'll find that:

- spider holes where dug deep, but "tight", and with camouflaged cover: you'll need big shells to take them out with arty (in game terms: high armor rating). Top armor of "13" or even "26" is ridiculous, though - "1" may be debatable due to thick wooden cover which was sometimes encountered.

- spider holes where 1-man hideouts. (not 3, as in the game) Unless they where tunnel entrences in reality. But that is a special case.

- atm, they are the "hardest" bunker the VC can field. In reality, they were used as flank cover for real bunkers, as emergency hideout or observation post

- VCs in spider holes used either grenades (6 as in the game is generous), AK-47 or rocket launchers. But only ONE weapon, not a whole bunch ! Furthermore, I found no mentioning of sniper rifles !

- FC/RngF 10 is totally unjustified

- I found no account of command-detonated booby traps able to take out 6x8 men which cautiously approached within 50m.


So I would suggest: Remove the top armor, or set it to "1". Set the size to "1", and give it scout ability. IIRC, this would make it harder to spot (again), but makes it easier to hit once spottet. Remove all FC/RngF. Make it 1-man-only. Oc., adjust the cost accordingly.

[DRG]

loktarr said:
I have done the whole caimpain without problem with those spider holes...
When you start the caimpain you are supposed to bought a whole Marines Co, with snipers, scoots and arty support.
In the first mission I did bought for support 105mm and 155mm ones...
Then I have moved with snipers at the head, just after bombardement finished, usualy, spider holes where pinned when I arrived in position, I suppressed them with MG's fire when possible, then with snipers that are quite never detected when firing from covered positions, and then I finished the work with scoot assaulting from adjacent hexe or with demo teams...
I have never lost more than 4 mens that way, and it was the consequence of a stupid error...
Try that way and I think there should be no more problem...




EXACTLY ! You handled them exactly the same way I do and half my losses are usually from impatience so also the "consequence of a stupid error". These are NOT invulnerable positions if handled correctly and I have never used arty when testing them simply to prove they can be defeated by men alone but certainly a good whacking by 105's will help

Don

[DRG]

Nightblade said:
Thank you for your answers.
<SNIP>

And that was my problem, as it is impossible to assault a spider nest if it is not pinned down, the "booby trap" weapon from the guy inside of the spider nest is a "squad kill" weapon.

I am not really understanding why so much armor to such unit, but following the saved game i tried to assault the 2nd spider nest using the MG+sniper tactic, but from the entrenched position to its north (for cover).

After pinning down the sniper nest 2 times (it took +/- 3 turns of full fire on the nest to pin it down once), i succeeded to move in contact 2 marine squad 2 times (so 4 assaults in total)
for the precision, the marines were at 1 or 2 suppression level for each assault.

It failed 4 time and at the end , it made the 2 Marine Squad annhilated by the spider nest booby traps (as after each assaults it was back in "ready, dug in" stance).

So i can accept the fact people say those spider nest are not "invulnerable".

But considering the time in turns it takes to just destroy one, how easy it is to fail an assault, and the huge losses in the assaulter ranks due to the booby trap retaliation, they are way better than any kind of bunker i ever met in the 1960/70 battles in the game if you have no artillery or no APC.



You are missing the point entirely. Simply pinning the unit is not sufficient to neutralize it and it's booby traps. You have to engage it from two - four directions and *****force it to fire back at you**** . Once it is full engaged ( i.e. it has used up all it's reaction / opfire you move adjacent to it and there won't BE any Booby traps. I only tripped the Booby trap once when engaging both those spider holes and that was because I tripped over the first one with a squad! DO NOT try to move adjacent to a spider hole unless it is in a state of "retreat" OR ( preferably ) it has used up it's 6 allotted opfires at other units firing at it from cover

I lost maybe 7 men taking those two spider holes. I know it can be done and it CAN be done without "......huge losses in the assaulter ranks due to the booby trap retaliation" It took me two turns to deal with the first SH and a couple more to deal with the second one and both of those were "sideshows" because they do not guard critical victory hexes

I think part of the problem here is physiological. These things have people spooked and once you get into a "defeatist" mindset they've beaten you. I **KNOW** I can beat them so they don't affect me the same way

Don

[DRG]

Here's another save game with the replay that shows the other spider hole being destroyed. I ran this three times without any losses at all. I also have the lead in turns to this if I need to walk anyone though this step by step.

Watch the replay. Notice that the two units keeping the Spider hole occupied are NOT 300+ metres they are only 100 metres and the MG and sniper are in the open and I did it twice without the sniper Also note that each unit offering covering fire for the main assault force in the south are firing alternately so the spider hole is forced to break target lock each time it reacts to my covering fire. Once it's fully engaged ( i.e.used up all it's reaction fire ) you move in for the kill.

This is not rocket science folks. It's not impossible and you do not need to take huge losses unless you "Banzai !" at the damn thing. It was built to be a challenge ( as it obviously is for some of you ) but when it was built it was created with all the FC and armour BECAUSE it was deemed too easy to kill without all the "enhancements" ( and it is becasue it's barely a challenge now )

Don

[loktarr]

I tried it once again with no major problems against 3 adjacent spider holes!!!
I nothing to had except that:
-sniper are very usefull to go in the adjacent hexe of the spider hole and are nearly never detected and can assault wth grenades and kill some viets -> adds suppression,
-there is a really powerful unit: buy a recon team there are:
a 3 men recon group, a 2 men enginers group, an FO
group and a "recon Sniper"
This "Recon Sniper" carries a satchel charge, so 1 recion sniper bought= 1 spider hole dead, with 10 tests, I got 9 success with no loses (against a single spider hole), 1 time my sniper did noy hit with his satchel, and after delivering a covering fire from him, the enginer squad destroyedthat spider hole...
So retry that campain and when finished you'll have learned much about the game...
good Luck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nightblade]

playing again and again the same mission finally made me understand why i kept running into heavy losses despite i used the same exact approach (a couple of sniper+MG firing +/- 3 turns to the nest from cover while moving the assault team from the forest to remain undetected).

After running in so much "assault failed" message (that lead in the 'wake up' of the nest and so the deadly booby trap) , i tried to buy engineer instead of regular marine troops.

And there, no loss in two successive nest assault using the exact same approach.
Well, i guess my "make everything with regular marines" personnaly challenge is a bit too difficult for me, but i will try and try again until i find a way to lower the ratio of "assault failed" messages with those troops.

But i continue to not understand the reason sniper nests are immune to M79/grenade launchers/Iroquois MG attacks enough to never been forced to be "pinned down" while a couple of MG+sniper will get them in that stance everytime ?


You are missing the point entirely. Simply pinning the unit is not sufficient to neutralize it and it's booby traps. You have to engage it from two - four directions and *****force it to fire back at you****


Well, in my approach, waiting for the moment i finally "pin down" the nest , i have usually 2 squads at 2 hexagons distance hidden in forest not engaging and not been engaged.

As soon as the nest is pinned down, those squads can move in the adjacent hexagon and assault the nest -without any booby trap striking before the assault.
Only before being pinned down i will have a booby trap strike as soon as the squad arrive in the adjacent hexagon.

forcing the nest to fire back usually lead me into several loss i would like to avoid, as it has a higher % of hit than me.

[loktarr]

Engineers works very good, also with MBTs for every kind of assault, but it should work with regular marines even with the (M-16,M60,M60,M60) team which chances in assault are bad...
Try assaulting with a single sniper, even without making the nest pinned...