Gas Prices

[Atrocities]

I have a question; why isn't our government doing something to help ease the excessive high cost of gas? Hell in Washington state our government did something, they added a $0.10 cents per gallon tax on gas... way to go Democrats! Woo Whoo, that really helped to ease the pain a bit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

The Federal Government is acting like there is no problem. Its business as usual in Washington as the rich get richer and the poor get taxed to death and bare the brunt burdon of these record high gas prices without so much as an winke of acknowledgement from the fat *** bruicrats in Washington DC.

I wish we could hold an election this year and fire the whole lot of them, yes including Bush. This is unforgiveable, the pinch is on the lower class, those of us who make less than $25,000 a year. Hell I made more in 1987 working for $3.35 an hour 40 hours a week than I have in the last two years combined! They say wages are up, well so is the cost of living with the notible exception that the cost of living has exceeded wage increases ten fold!

Hell all you have to do is look at the cost of a home compared to just five years ago..... O M F G! Add on an additional 20k for new terriifs, levies, and taxes along with builder greed and you get a one room house with no garage going for $123,000! It only cost $12,500 to build six years ago!

How is it that our own Government can go on ignoring the simple fact that people cannot aford to continue paying for high gas prices without some sort of relief? Cut the gas tax both federally as well as at the state level. Put a law in place to prevent price gouging and Oil company price fixing fraud. Release some of the strategic reserves, and fund research into alternative fuels more aggressively.

Hell if they can make synthetic oils, why can't they make synthetic gas? I know about bio-deseal, and now that everyone else does, the price of waste oil form places like burger joints has gone up over 1000% making bio-deseal less cost effective.

The thing is, even though the average price per gallon of regular is $2.50 a gallon now, expected to top $3.00 by the end of the month, people are still driving in record numbers as if there is no problem. That sends a message to the leaders of our government that there is no problem and thus they can continue to ignor the issue domestically.

Sure a barrel of oil now costs $65.00, and is expected to reach $80.00 by the end of the month, but does that mean we need to see this cost of $80.00 a barrel passed onto us right now?

There was a mathmatician, forgot his name, and he talked about the bell curve for oil consumption verses production and availablity. He stated that by the end of the decade, we will be in a serious oil poor state as the price of crude climbs and the availablity of it plumits. He seems to be on target with his predicitions.

He went on to say that if you had 10 people stranded on an island with enough resources to feed each of them for 10 days, how long would it take for one of them to figure out that if he bumped off the other 9, he would have enough resources to last him a 100 days?

Not to sound like a doom sayer, but I sincerely doubt prices will fall, even if they do, they will not fall by much. What we have to look forward to is continued record costs for fuel, and by extension, increased costs spread across the entire board of life from food thru electricity. Our wages will not beable to keep up as more and more high paying jobs are exported over seas and more and more Americans have to take on two or even three jobs just to meet the basic bills of life.

Hell I can see a day when some pimple faced 20 year old kid tells a four year college graduate that he is not qualified enough to flip burgers at McDonalds because they require a six year degree for that job. The market being flooded with out of work people all applying for the minimum wage jobs because there are no other jobs available.

And to add salt to the wound, gas prices by then could be as high as $4.50 a gallon if the Democrats are aloud to keep passing gas taxes at the state level.

[Phoenix-D]

Atrocities said:
Hell I can see a day when some pimple faced 20 year old kid tells a four year college graduate that he is not qualified enough to flip burgers at McDonalds because they require a six year degree for that job. The market being flooded with out of work people all applying for the minimum wage jobs because there are no other jobs available.




Just a quick comment on this part: people aren't looking around enough, either. -Every- gas station around here is understaffed, and while it isn't a great job it isn't minimum wage either..

[Atrocities]

Good point, part time jobs do help pay the bills even if they suck up what little free time one has. Working two jobs can actually be rewarding in more way than one if scheduled right.

[FJ_MD]

Mmmmmmhhhh


1 gallon = 3.79 liter


Price per gallon(US) = 2.5(average)Dollar
Price per liter(Italy) = 1.5(average benzin)Euro
1.4(average diesel)Euro


1 US dollar = 0.8342 Euro


Pure math is still by your side! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Phoenix-D]

And your prices are still mostly self-inflicted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Atrocities]

"When you want people to stop using something, just tax the hell out of it." - Unknown Democrate Senator.

[El_Phil]

Atrocities said:
Sure a barrel of oil now costs $65.00, and is expected to reach $80.00 by the end of the month, but does that mean we need to see this cost of $80.00 a barrel passed onto us right now?




Well who should pay the extra cost of the black stuff? Most oil firms regard petrol as that annoying stuff that comes with the usefull stuff in oil. You look at say BP or Exxon and all their money comes from stuff that isn't petrol, the margins are paper thin.

Shell was seriously considering selling their entire petrol station operation only a year or so ago, the only reason they didn't was they got distracted by losing 25% of their oil reserves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So they aren't going to make a lose on petrol, so the consumer pays it. As for releasing the strategic reserve, don't be an idiot. I hate to say it AT, but its true. Countries keep reserves of petrol for alot of good reasons, none of which are to keep people from paying a bit more for petrol. If US manufactures produced cars that did miles per gallon, not gallons per mile that would solve alot of the problem.

So to get to the final point, perhaps putting fuel duty up might encourage US car makers to use existing technology in their cars to improve fuel efficency. It can't be a bad thing can it?

[Atrocities]

US Auto makers know they can make cars that can get better gas mileage, but they are in bed with the oil companies and keep gas mileage artifically lower. There are after market things you can do that improve mileage, but nothing that compares to what the manufacture can do.

And the greatest lie ever told is the lie that convinces people that evil does not exist. Oil companies love to perpetuate the myth that they are loosing money in order to hide the fact that they ar RAKING IT IN and laughing all the way to the bank. I remember a simular discussion about energy crisis a few years back and what do you know, it was all just an Eron scam to make money.

[Atrocities]

I believe the name of the man who discussed Hubbards Peak and dwindling oil reserves was Professor David Goodstein. If it was he who I saw then he made an alarming connection between increased population and dwindling resources. He also noted that increased population resulted in less freedoms and less government representation. Many states who have seen a huge increase in population still have the same number of senators that they had fifty years ago. Doing the math on this is simple, say in 1950 you had 2 Senators for a state with a population of 1 million. Today you have 2 Senators for the same state but with a population of 20 million.

He explained how Hubbards peak worked, and the bell curves for gas consumption and production. It was just about four years ago that I saw the show so forgive me if I have the name wrong. But I am pretty sure it was he who was the key note speaker. He authored the book "Out Of Gas."

[LordFulgrymm]

Thought this might be of interest:

http://lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

[El_Phil]

Atrocities said:
US Auto makers know they can make cars that can get better gas mileage, but they are in bed with the oil companies and keep gas mileage artifically lower. There are after market things you can do that improve mileage, but nothing that compares to what the manufacture can do.

And the greatest lie ever told is the lie that convinces people that evil does not exist. Oil companies love to perpetuate the myth that they are loosing money in order to hide the fact that they ar RAKING IT IN and laughing all the way to the bank. I remember a simular discussion about energy crisis a few years back and what do you know, it was all just an Eron scam to make money.



The first one is true, but not in the way you say it. Yes you can get spectacularly better mpg out of an engine than the US boys manage, but as US consumers don't care why bother spending money making good engines?

Biggest selling US vehicle is the F150 pickup, it does gallons per mile in terms of petrol use but no-one cares. Frankly if you buy a car with a ****e mpg, don't complain you spend alot on fuel. Follow the lead of shed loads of other Americans and buy a Japanese motor, when sales for GM and Ford drop even futher then they'll start producing decent engines. Not before though.

As for the second point, yes oil firms make loads of money. No it isn't out of petrol. A quick check of their books confirms that. Take BP, £18.5 billion from exploration and production, £5 billion from Refining and Marketing, a loss of £900 million from petrochemical. Now that includes alot of exceptionals and it was a bad year. £400 million profit from petrochemicals was last year is fairer. And that isn't just petrol for cars it includes aviation fuel and a hell of alot more besides. So frankly its small beer in the scheme of things.

[El_Phil]

LordFulgrymm said:
Thought this might be of interest:

http://lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/



**Bangs head into wall repeatedly**

Yes oil producion will peak, no not in the forseable future, certainly not within 5 years.

No the worlds banks will not fall over if oil gets pricier.

The only reason oil sand/shale are uneconomic is because they cost more than $40/barrel to get out. But not much more.

That list of mergers is A. Inaccurate B. Misleading C. Pointless

The platinum article carefully misses out the massive and mysterious reserves in Russia, where platinum mining/production/reserves are still considered a state secret. And the entire Westveldt complex which is barely even scratched. Plus those liquid hydrogen loss figures are for piss poor insulated vessels, any cryogenic engineer worth his salt could do better than that.

Yes the black stuff wont last forever, however it wont happen soon. I think fusion will take care of it if I'm honest. They've got break even at the small scale so it's doable. What's needed is the impetus and all out effort, which is lacking at the moment.

Still if you want to live your life in gloom and only see the dark in everything go and read those books, then perhaps slash your wrist to cheer yourself up. But remember: Down not across.

[FJ_MD]

Hey! Why don't you buy European cars?


With your price per gallon and the European car KM per liter (25 KM with diesel) you will surely save lot of money.


Now that I think about it, Ford sell also here in Europe... if I was in you I surely go for the Ford Focus model (if you prefer american name)or Fiat Stilo or Volkswagen Golf V... why go for the big ugly pick up?

[LordFulgrymm]

LordFulgrymm said:
Thought this might be of interest:

http://lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/



Sorry, just couldn't resist. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif A friend from India sent me this a while back. A lot of it just made me laugh; particularly numbers 4 and 5 in the "what can I do to prepare" section at the end. Classic!

Edit: I did have a link to a more balanced article on the same subject, but I can't seem to find it at the mo...doh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

I want a Ford Expidition Hybrid made by Honda!

Thanks for broading our perspective on the topic El Phil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Sometimes I forget that there is always more information and truth out side the conventional box of thinking that I give credit for.

[Leslie]

What should be mentioned, is gas prices is not just about the cost of getting around in your car.

When they talk about oil, they mean everything made with it.

I don't have a car, but I just moved from a place that used gas heat. Normally gas heat ISN'T more expensive, but that is now not really such an easy remark to make. I have electric heat here now, but my rent is inclusive (ie not my problem).

But oil is used for paint to clothing to pens to lubricants.
It impacts the price of your groceries, because it also runs farm equipment.

If they don't soon get a grip on the oil costs soon, it is eventually going to cause some trouble in more areas than just the cost to run your car.

[Atrocities]

A world wide oil shortage will lead to starvation and other comodities break downs. This is something that also is not in dispute. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[El_Phil]

Or perhaps as the price goes up oil will stop being wasted. well wasted isn't exactly right, but currently oil/plastics are dirt cheap so it's the first choice material, even if its not the best.

There was a story about DVD-R price rises, optical-grade polycarbonate the main component, is now $3.50/kg. Three and a half bucks for a very high grade plastic. That's massively cheap. A DVDs only, what a couple of dozen grammes? So how much of the cost of a DVD-R is actually the plastic? **ck all, yet the price rises 10% when the material goes up a few cents. So AT if you want a bunch of money grabbing fat cats.....

[Leslie]

"There was a story about DVD-R price rises"

Rising prices?

Heck, blank dvds seem to be so cheap now, I actually find needing an actual blank cd occasionally to be a nuisance, as a dvd holds more.

I have, when it is possible, considered compiling cds as images on dvds, just so I can have more for less.

[Xrati]

The higher prices are OK. They should have gone up years ago. The US has been paying some of the lowest prices in the world. I've just seen to much waste! Not just in personnel use but in corporate use as well. Jet planes flying empty, delivery people leaving their vehicles running and traffic systems that leave you stopping at almost every light instead of having them timed to keep traffic flowing. Maybe now we'll get better at conserving gas.
As El_Phil said, all plastics are a bi-product of oil. China is now using more oil than they used to. All this and more is causing the price to rise because production is still the same and we really aren't doing anything to increase it. BUT the real cause of the price increase is the refining process. We are operating at max capacity and there are no plans to increase that either.

[Wolfman77]

As fuel prices go up companies will pass the extra cost on to others. It's already happening. The place I work spends $10,000 a year to rent a water purifier that needs replacing every 3 months. Our new invoice has a $5 "fuel surcharge" at the bottom. Not a large amount but it is just one piece of equipment, and as prices rise, more companies will do this, and for larger amounts. In the end it will all be passed on to the consumer, as with everything else. I do not, however, believe it will mean the end of the world. That is just someone trying to scare people into beliving what he believes, And since most people are quite suggestible (even more so when they are scared), it works.

In the end you will pay more. And you will learn to like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[El_Phil]

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050616A4014.html

DVD-Rs, like every other plastic product, has got pricier to make because the raw material, oil, cost more to buy. For most products the actual cost of the plastic is such a tiny proprtion of the total cost, the price doesn't get passed on.

However the CD/DVD makers have been in a vicious(ish) price war, hence the dirt cheap prices. So oil rises is just an excuse to push up prices and start making money not breaking even.

Xrati, Refinery capacity would be OK, but for that Texan oil refinery blowing up. That and all the refinerys have been running flat out for so long they're starting to break down. The US may have no plans for new refinerys, I don't honestly know, but other countries certainly do.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Atrocities said:
"When you want people to stop using something, just tax the hell out of it." - Unknown Democrate Senator.


I assume you made this up? I just can't figure out how you'd know it's a democratic senator, yet not know the name of whoever supposedly said it...

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Atrocities]

It was a quote used in a convention confrence held in Portland back in the early 90's. I was in attendance. It was meant as a joke, but has proven to be the truth as the democrats have demostrated time and time again. This behavior cannot be disputed. They have talked about using taxes as a means to regulate the use of something, and most recently talked about adding a significant gas tax in order to force people out of driving. And all because I do not recall the mans name does not mean that I shouldn't recall what he said.

[Kamog]

Yesterday when I filled up my car, the price of gas was $1.095 per liter, the highest I have ever paid. If gas price keeps going up, I'll consider buying a hybrid vehicle. But when I was in the UK a couple of weeks ago, the price of gas was more than twice as expensive there.

[El_Phil]

In the UK the price of petrol is all tax, well as near all as makes no odds. On the other hand the mpg of the worst car you can buy is better than the average of Detroit's finest.

There's probably a connection. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Plastics are also made from petroleum. And bubble gum.

Im abit irritated that Bush is going to allow oil drilling in so many preserves. Its short-range tactical. Besides the fact that I hate opening preserves to lumbering/drilling/mining.. I also think that we should use up everyone elses oil at any price, and then be the last ones to have any.

Gandalf Parker

[El_Phil]

Dangerous talk there matey.

A. Wildlife preserves, so what? 95% maybe more of Alaska will continue to be an empty depressing tundra. The other 4% will continue to be moose filled slightly less depressing tundra leaving 1% that will be drilled for oil for a few years, then returned to being depressing tundra with/without mooses.

B. To even think about getting a mining licence you have to promise on your first born child to make the area significantly better when you leave than when you found it. How on earth you make Alaska better I have no idea, intensive moose breeding perhaps?

C. On the contrary I think the US should use up all it's own oil first. It might stop you using oil-fired power and make you stop buying pickups.

[Fyron]

If US manufactures produced cars that did miles per gallon, not gallons per mile that would solve alot of the problem.


That doesn't even make any sense... all cars do both gallons per mile and miles per gallon. They are just inverse ratios of each other...

[El_Phil]

Nope look at the words. Miles per gallon, as in more than one mile per gallon of fuel. Gallons per mile is more than one gallon needed to do a single mile.

So if a car did 0.5 a mile per gallon it would be 2 gallons per mile. Notice the 's' placements.

[Fyron]

Moderate sized American SUVs get around 18-20 miles per gallon (which is crappy, but whatever). More reasonable American cars are in the 25-30 mpg range. I don't know what this "mile per gallon" you are speaking of is about.

[Gandalf Parker]

El_Phil said:
Dangerous talk there matey.

A. Wildlife preserves, so what? 95% maybe more of Alaska will continue to be an empty depressing tundra.



The other points were at least worthy but that one missed me completely. Im too far from ever agreeing with that view just IMHO

Gandalf Parker

[El_Phil]

Fyron: It seems I must resurrect the old " " tags. It's a joke with a semi-serious point.

Gandalf: Maybe ignore the depressing, but Alaska is just tundra, permafrost with the occasional moose. The world is not short of either of those enviroments. Or moose for that matter.

Take 10% off the Alaskan wildlife preserve and nobody would notice, unlike, say Bamboo forests or African savannah plains. Those last two areas are rare and full on endagered animals Alska, frankly, isn't.

[FJ_MD]

Phoenix-D said:
And your prices are still mostly self-inflicted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif




Yep! We Italians still pay (in the year 2005)fuel taxes for:


1)Abissinian war of 1935
2)Suez Crisis of 1956
3)Vajont disaster of 1963
4)Florence flood of 1966
5)Belice earthquake of 1968
6)Friuli earthquake of 1976
7)Irpinia earthquake of 1980
8)Lebanon mission of 1983
9)Bosnia mission of 1996
10)Money for trains and buses pilots in 2004


This make me think.....

[Fyron]

El_Phil said:
Fyron: It seems I must resurrect the old " " tags. It's a joke with a semi-serious point.

A point that conflicts with reality?

[El_Phil]

Did you actually read the post I made?

Now I accept that no US car actually does such a low mpg that it become more than one gallon per mile, but US designed cars have the worst fuel efficency of every car in their respective classes, baring exotics and other oddities. So to express that point I didn't laboriously spell it out but was slightly ironic.

From now on, when I remember http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, I will use tags for those with a limited sense of humour

[Kamog]

I filled up my car today and it was $1.099 per liter this time. It looks like these high prices of over $1 per liter is not going to go away. Now it costs me $50 to fill up the tank and I do that about once every two weeks. I should ride a bike or walk more to save money and get exercise at the same time.

[Atrocities]

Costs me $50.00 to fill up too so I guess our prices are close huh?

[Baron Munchausen]

Hmm, maybe this thread and the 'virtual robbery' thread should be merged.

[Atrocities]

Yup

[Xrati]

Why? Are you thinking of sueing the oil companies for personel hardship?

[Atrocities]

Up from 2.75 to 2.99 in one day do to the effect of the hurricane yesterday. WTF???? Why gouge us now when the effect of the hurricane HAS NOTHING to do with us? Or at least not for a few more days!

I am surprised that they did not send Gas prices to $5.00 following 9/11! Hell if they can use every weather event, natural act of God, and voodoo whim to raise the price of gas, why didn't they sock it too us on 9/11?

This is BULL****! They are doing the EXACT same thing that ENRON did a few years back by creating a deliberate short fall of gas to drive up the cost domestically. The price of a barrel of oil my be at an all time high, punishment for the war I guess, but high gas taxes, greed, and out right fraud are what have driven the price of Gas to $3.00 a gallon.

"If they can afford $2.00 a gallon then they can afford $3.00 a gallon."

And our government is saying that these high prices are having NO affect on any one..... WHAT UTOPIA FAIRY LAND DO THOSE DUMB***, STUPID **very bad words** LIVE IN?

These high gas prices are affecting food costs, up over 30% in the last 3 months, travel and tourism, recreational and out door actives, and oh yes we cannot forget the grand prize, peoples ability to drive.

Although I have not noticed a decrease in traffic, quite the opposite in fact. It seems more and more high-end cars are on the road these days and fewer and fewer lower class cars.

It seems only the rich can now afford to drive and the rest of us, those who are lower class, can only afford to drive when its absolutely necessary to do so.

So the rich win by default. They are the only ones who can afford to buy gas to drive so they enjoy the benefit of having fewer cars on the road. Hell its like a rich mans driving club. Only the rich are aloud to drive now.... They own the road, and all you have to do is drive to the store to see how they react. They do own the road. And when they take the cel phone away from their head, they might, if they are being generous, turn on a signal indicating that they are about to cut you the [censored] off. Hell rules of the road and even the law does not apply to these rich SOB's so why should safety and courtesy matter?

"How dare you drive on my road you peasant!"

The sad thing is, no one seems to really care about the prices except for crack pots and doom sayers. And that is sad.

[El_Phil]

Look at a map of US oil production and refining, compare with the path of the hurricane and were it hit.

Hopefully all is clear now.

9/11 didn't impact oil production. At all. In fact as large chunks of the US Population became terrified of flying oil use dropped tremendously.

One question, are fuel taxs state or fedral? I'd imagine they're fedral but I confess I don't know. If they are fedral then no way can they be cut, with a budget deficit the size of Africa's GDP and no easy choices on spending cuts they can't afford to cut taxes.

Despite what you may think oil men aren't total gits, their buissnessmen. A fine distinction I'll admit, but if why should they take the extra cost of a natural disaster? If it's any consolation even if petrol prices hadn't gone up, you still would have ended up paying for it some way. The consumer always does. C'el la vie.

[El_Phil]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4199584.stm

I think covers it.

[Captain Kwok]

The people who run the gas stations need to raise the price somewhat in advance because if they didn't then people who buy all their gas up at the lower price and a few days later when their more expensive inventory comes in, they won't be able to sell it.

[Xrati]

The effects of what is going on will be felt by everyone! Discretionary cash will now be devoted toward "necessities" rather then all the "extras" people have been used to. I have been telling people for a long time now that our governments are "out of touch" with their people. This is why you get these ridiculous statements that claim everything is just great. As Atrocities mentioned:

"And our government is saying that these high prices are having NO affect on any one..... WHAT UTOPIA FAIRY LAND DO THOSE DUMB***, STUPID **very bad words** LIVE IN? "

I feel the crunch and I know that other do too! You just need to start buying what you need and let the extras go for awhile. We need to send a message and the only one they will hear is one that effects THEIR bottom line... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Leslie]

$1.18 (metric) price here in Ontario.

Ouch, that is going to hurt.

I have plans to journey to see a buddy with another buddy in next couple of days.
A short jaunt, and the driver friend has a good job, lives with parents, and no woman.
Even with all that, my destination friend and I are going to chip in a few bucks towards gas expense of the visit.

There needs to be something done across the board about this situation.
Those on gas heating better learn how to cut drafts and get to like sweaters this winter cold or not.
Better start adjusting your food budget, because your groceries will start inching up in cost. It takes fuel to produce and or deliver it.

This is going to need way more than ditching a love affair with gas guzzling suvs.

[Xrati]

You know that Katrina wiped out a lot of the US Southern coast, caused oil problems, raised prices AND the Stock Market is up! I ask myself "what that's all about?" How can all these negative events happen and Wall Street just shrugs it off!!! I guess big money doesn't care about world events if there's money to be made!

[El_Phil]

Well the hurricane isn't a surprise. It's been factored in ever since people knew it was going to hit. Look back a few days, thats when the stock market dropped. When something's happening it's already old news.

Since then consider the news: When it hit it was only a category 3, it missed the middle of New Orleans, it won't cost insurance firms as much as they thought, the US is releasing emergency oil stocks lowering the price of oil. Hence the market goes up on the 'good' news.

What did you expect the entire world just to stop as something bad happened in the US? Did the US stop when the earthquake hit Bam killing tens of thousands? Life goes on, and part of that life is the stock market.

[Atrocities]

Look at a map of US oil production and refining, compare with the path of the hurricane and were it hit.


Here in WA we have been repeatedly told by the Oil companies that our refinaries in and around Seattle produce all the gas for our entire area. The oil here does not go through the Gulf it comes in by sea via the Pacific Ocean. So now we know that they are always lying to us. Oil prices are effected by everything from a single plane crash near a refinary to some curse some voodoo princess placed on the head of Mobile. Hell everything is an excuse to raise prices even if it is utter BS. That kind of price gowging must be stopped. I heard, albeit not confirmed, that the Hawain Governor put a freeze on the price of gas in his state.

Fuel taxes are both State and Federal with WA being one of the higest in the country now. Once her election was confirmed, our new govenor raised the tax by 10 cents over four years. However the very next day the price of gas went up by 10 cents at all the stations. "The new Tax." WTF, the tax hadn't even taken effect yet, and once it did it was only going to be 4 cents! So the station owners are ripping us off and using the tax as an excuse to do it figuring that people are too stupid to figure it out. Hell even if they do figure it out, what can they do? Everyone one else raised their prices by 10 cents, so all is good in the land of the rich and getting richer.

Whent he Exxon Valdies (sp) went a ground in 89 they raised the price of gas saying that the spill was so great that we had a gas shortage. That turned out to be bull but it worked so no, I do not believe a good God damn thing the oil businessmen say. They are all greedy bastards willing to rob you blind to make more money than God.

The people who run gastations raise their prices to make money, thats it.

As to wall street being up over the natural weather event that just occured, well Wall Street is all about money and nothing makes money like natural disasters and death. More more that is destroyed the more they love it. Why you ask, because the things that are destroyed must be rebuilt. Rebuilding costs money and that money helps companies to grow.

[Kamog]

One of my coworkers drives about an hour to get to work each day and another hour to get home. He got a house far from the city center because houses are less expensive out there and he could afford to buy a nice big house. Now he's crying because gas expenses are eating up so much of his money and he has to fill up his tank every few days, even with carpooling. The poor guy says he's hardly making any money from the job because the commuting cost is so high.

[El_Phil]

Hey capitalism at work baby! Supply and demand, etc..

If you don't like it I hear fuel is pretty cheap in Communist China. Of course that's because if it isn't cheap then everyone at the state owned oil company is shot.

[Atrocities]

The chines will rule the world one day and the those of people still left alive after the world wide genocide will be little more than food stock and slaves.

[Baron Munchausen]

Kamog said:
One of my coworkers drives about an hour to get to work each day and another hour to get home. He got a house far from the city center because houses are less expensive out there and he could afford to buy a nice big house. Now he's crying because gas expenses are eating up so much of his money and he has to fill up his tank every few days, even with carpooling. The poor guy says he's hardly making any money from the job because the commuting cost is so high.



What does he drive? An SUV? Or something with a reasonable level of fuel economy? If the public reacts properly this might actually turn out to be a good thing. Maybe Americans will finally think about how much energy they are using and start to buy cars, appliances, etc. that are efficient.

[Atrocities]

Yes, the high prices are having an environmental effect and that is one of the only good things about this.

Ok here's the problem now. Fewer people are buying gas now, so many states are loosing tax revenue so in response they are going to hike their gas tax to compensate for lost revenue. [shaking head] It figures.

[Atrocities]

Here is a link to the Hawaii state gas cap law I mentioned.
Gas Cap Law (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2005-08-24-hawaii-gas_x.htm#)

[Kamog]

Today I filled up the car and the price was $1.188 per liter! The gas prices keep going up higher and higher! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Xrati]

Get used to it! The oil companies now know that we will pay this kind of money for gas. They will keep the prices up there until there is no more oil on this planet to sell us. I find it funny how they still say that alcohol is still to expensive as a gas substitute. How high do gas prices have to go before we can get a cheap and readily available alternate source?
As long as we keep using oil products the demand will always exceed the supply. We need more refineries! We have more then enough oil, but if you can't refine it, it will never get to market. The oil companies have used this to keep their price up there and now with the loss of the Gulf States refining we have a major shortage because companies wanted to keep supply to the point of maximizing their profits. It's backfired and people are pissed. NOW people will demand that the oil companies account for themselves and we will all be waiting for the next quarterly statements, where their profits will be way up there despite new and replaced equipment they will have to replace from the hurricane.

[El_Phil]

1. Oil Company. Company. It's their job to make money, it's like complaining about a cow eating grass.
2. I'll put money that their profits will be up. And that most of that will NOT be from petrol, it's the other uses of oil that make money, petrol is a minor part of their trade.

[Xrati]

El_Phil said:
1. Oil Company. Company. It's their job to make money, it's like complaining about a cow eating grass.
2. I'll put money that their profits will be up. And that most of that will NOT be from petrol, it's the other uses of oil that make money, petrol is a minor part of their trade.



1. How much profit IS ENOUGH? Where should we be looking at profit versus being taken to the cleaners. All companies are in business to make money, I understand that part. Most companies have competition within their product line. Wouldn't it be nice to have an alternate fuel source for them to compete with? Most companies now operate as borderline monopolies. They buy out their closest competitors and leave the weakest of their competition to survive.

2. All oil products must still be refined into their final state. Oil, gas, tar, plastics, what ever the final product is, it must be refined! We should be experiencing a shortage of plastic shortly! I guess all those "blacktop" road projects will be at risk too!

[El_Phil]

Buy a diesel car or a hybrid. Get a hydrogen cell conversion done on your own car. There's nothing stoping you doing those things. There's alternatives. But the key thing is: They aren't as good or are more expensive.

Refining is different for the various products, the huge amount of petrol that some countries **cough The US cough** use means that many refineries are dedicated just to petrol, and indeed use various fractions of the oil that could very easily be made into other products with far less work. Oh and did you miss my post a while back? The price of DVD-Rs and other high grade plastic items is going up, more than it should but it is.

When a plastic goes from very cheap to just cheap it doesn't make much difference to the final price, unless the finished product is all plastic and is cheap itself. For almost everything else the plastic is such a tiny amount of the total cost that the price could go up an order of magnitude and many firms wouldn't notice.

[Xrati]

Well if the "ALTERNATIVE$" aren't really alternatives, then there is no real competition. Why would you chose to use something that would cost you more to use? We need more competition for fuel sources and alternative fuel sources. Are we going to wait until the last drop of oil is sucked from this planet to start looking for them!
As far as plastics go, the volume used versus the cost increase is almost insignificant. It's probably only pennies a part, BUT the almighty quest for PROFIT will justify a larger then needed price increase.
We, as an overall society, have become totally dependant on oil byproducts. For the future of the planet and the children of the world we need to find other sources of energy!!! AND it's just not happening! Maybe this is the boot in the ARSE that we need,

[El_Phil]

So your complaining that the cheapest option is, in fact, still the cheapest option?

You been a card carrying Commie long, or has it just taken slightly more expensive petrol to convice you that capitalism is evil?

That clearly is where the USSR went wrong. "Come to Mother Russia, we have cheap petrol!" They'd have won the cold war no problem.

[Atrocities]

Just look at China to see where Russa went wrong. China is still communist and doing quite well. What did they do that Russa did not? Not that I would ever want to live in either country.

[Xrati]

Do you understand what "Competition" is? It's what used to drive this country. The competition for your business was the reason for 'customer support' and advertising. If your given one choice, which choice would you make. The US has long been a world leader in marketing 'Democracy', yet they are now involved protecting 'Monopolism' (my word for it). They encourage big companies to buy out all their competition and leave us with the freedom to make "ONE" choice. They pass laws to protect companies (cable, phone) within State and Cities to eliminate any competition.
Until there is an alternative to oil/gas we have no choice because we HAVE to pay what the Oil Companies want. Don't kid yourself that there is any competition between the different Gas companies. They all support each other.

[El_Phil]

No war profitering is what drove the US. Selling arms to any country that had money, whatever their ideology.

Why on earth would the oil firms support each other in the the petrol biz? It is not worth that much effort as the potential rewards are, in the scheme of things, tiny and the punishment if caught immense. Remember Standard Oil?

The higher petrol goes in price, the more attractive other systems become. Hell perhaps some Americans may start walking places.... Only joking.

One simple question: Oil is now more expensive, hence petrol is more expensive. So why the hell shouldn't you pay more for it? No one is making massive extra profits off petrol, it's still:

Cost of oil + refining costs + Misc cost (transport, etc) + thin profit margin = Pump price.

Either the price of petrol goes up or the oil firms start making a loss on every gallon of petrol. It costs more to make, so of course it costs more to buy at the pump. You have nothing at all to complain about, it's like complaining that Strawberries are expensive in November. When things are rare they cost more.

[FJ_MD]

El_Phil said:
Buy a diesel car .......





Hey! I have a diesel car and it rocks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Phoenix-D]

El_Phil said:
Either the price of petrol goes up or the oil firms start making a loss on every gallon of petrol. It costs more to make, so of course it costs more to buy at the pump. You have nothing at all to complain about, it's like complaining that Strawberries are expensive in November. When things are rare they cost more.



Try this one.

The cost of a barrel of oil goes up, so the cost of gas goes up.

Except that barrel of oil will not be arriving at gas stations as gas for WEEKS. The gas currently being sold is the gas made from the much lower priced oil!

[Xrati]

That's a good point Phoenix, but that is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is not that gas should be cheaper or that strawberries should be more expensive in winter. My point is that competition drives prices down and keeps companies looking for better ways (cheaper) of producing their product. WE HAVE NO CHOICE right now! If you don't use gas or diesel, what do you use? The auto industry hasn't exactly embraced hybrid cars until just recently. I'm not even going to argue the point that Americans should walk more, I agree with that. I fill my car up once a month and I walk whenever possible so like I said in an earlier post, We need to use cars when we need them, instead of wasting resources.

El_Phil, I am not a "card carrying Commie". I think if I were one, we wouldn't be here on this board expressing our thoughts and the Internet would have never exisited.

[El_Phil]

Well Phoenix yes that is true, but it's also true that when the price of oil goes down so does the price of petrol. You cannot have it both ways.

Xrati: 1. Why should the US car trade make efficient cars or develop hybrids? Most US consumers just wanted a big engine and plenty of crushed velour interiors. That or a F150 pickup truck. Fuel efficient cars and hybrids didn't sell.The US was offered the choice and didn't choose it, now your living with the consequences.
2. So you invented the internet? Bugger me rigid! There was me thinking it was a combination of work by DARPA and Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Clearly I was wrong and it was in fact all your work. Truly you learn something every day.

[Xrati]

No Phil, I think you should read the words again. If we were under communism, the Internet would not exist at all. Such freedoms would not be allowed. But thanks for thinking that someone like myself could even begin to create the Internet! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I am flattered!

[El_Phil]

I think your confusing "communism" and "dictatorship" there. A surprisingly common mistake.

Even so if the US was under a dictatorship that surpressed all freedoms there'd still be a internet in the rest of the world, a bit less stuff on it but on the plus side less idiots. Swings and roundabouts.

[Phoenix-D]

El_Phil said:
Well Phoenix yes that is true, but it's also true that when the price of oil goes down so does the price of petrol. You cannot have it both ways.



Correct. However that's not what I was *****ing about.

When the price of oil goes -up-, gas prices track it very, very closely..even though, again, the oil won't be delivered as gas for weeks.

When the price of oil goes -down- prices DON'T track if closely at all. For exactly the same reason I stated above: the oil hasn't been delivered as gas yet. Funny how it only works in one direction, isn't it?

[El_Phil]

Not really, or at least I don't see anyone else laughing.

[Xrati]

I guess the only option is to get a horse! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Atrocities]

Screw riding a Horse, the Democrats would eat you alive on environmental impact fees, and find a way to tax you right off the saddle.

[Kamog]

When you look at the price of a hybrid vehicle compared to the price on an equivalent conventional vehicle, it still may not make good economical sense to buy the hybrid. You save on gas, but for the average driver, it will take many years for those savings to add up to make the hybrid worthwhile. By the time the extra cost of the hybrid pays for itself, the battery may wear out. Like all batteries, there's a limited number of recharge / discharge cycles that it is good for before it degrades and need to be replaced. It will probably be expensive to replace the battery if it fails after the warranty expires. But if gas prices keep going up like they have been recently, hybrids will become increasingly attractive.

[El_Phil]

You know I could have predicted AT would say that. Not to say your occasionaly predictable, but Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

El_Phil said:
You know I could have predicted AT would say that. Not to say your occasionaly predictable, but Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Ok, so its a bad joke. My bad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I was watching the West Wing and they had an episode about something, and one of the characters made the comment about adding a $3.00 per gallon tax on gas to force people into finding alterative mobility sources and it just rang out to me... more TAX revenue, of course!

[Fyron]

Hey guys, lets try to have fewer personal attacks and insults and more rational debate... makes for a much nicer place.

[Xrati]

I always knew that there was something about watching those horse drawn Amish carts that made me wonder if they had a better idea of what life should be! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Now that prices are going down again, it only took a 5% reduction in usage to get them sliding. Just think of what would happen if everyone just stopped for a week or two and didn't fill up. I wonder how far the price would slide?

[Baron Munchausen]

Xrati said:
I always knew that there was something about watching those horse drawn Amish carts that made me wonder if they had a better idea of what life should be! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Now that prices are going down again, it only took a 5% reduction in usage to get them sliding. Just think of what would happen if everyone just stopped for a week or two and didn't fill up. I wonder how far the price would slide?



Yeah, they have the right idea. Horse are not only 'organicly' fueled and so easy to maintain, they make their own replacements!
And they have more uses than just transportation:


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050722/ap_on_bi_ge/farm_scene_1

Horse-and-Plow Farming Making a Comeback

Ron VanGrunsven farms about 50 acres with horses near Council, Idaho, and has used horses for years there and in Oregon's Willamette Valley.

"They're more economical," he said. "They raise their own replacements, you can train them yourself and raise their feed."

A mare can produce a foal every year or so, and Miller says that, if properly trained, one can bring about $2,000 after two years.

A plow horse usually lasts 16 or 18 years, Miller said. He said he looks after his stable of nine carefully and veterinarian bills rarely total $200 a year.

VanGrunsven said a two-horse team and a farmer can plow about an acre and a half a day if the ground is right and that an acre usually produces more than enough hay to feed a horse for a year.

[Xrati]

Seems like the page is gone, went there and got this message.
<font color="blue"> The story or page you were trying to access may have expired. </font>

I always figured that society would end up going backwards to be able to move forward once again.

[El_Phil]

Doesn't scale up though does it? You only get cheap food from Agri-biz scale farming. And as we've established Americans get very upset and whine if prices for anything go up even a little bit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Phoenix-D]

It doesn't even scale -down-. Using a horse to get to work will cost you significantly more than a car.

[Baron Munchausen]

Ok, here's the original source:

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2005/08/13/outwest/outwest01.txt

[Baron Munchausen]

Phoenix-D said:
It doesn't even scale -down-. Using a horse to get to work will cost you significantly more than a car.



Gack! Have you bought a car in the last 20 years? Paid insurance? Paid for maintenance (like replacing tires, shock-absorbers, etc.)? Bought gas in the last year?

Cars are very expensive to own. The only thing that can be said in favor of them over horses is that they don't use 'fuel' when they're not actually in use -- horses must be fed every day of course, and their routine 'waste' doesn't clutter the road -- horses do add a 'road maintenance' problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif (although the 'corpses' of cars are much harder to dispose of than horses).

[Phoenix-D]

Yes, I've done all that. Let me see if I can find that age that actually did the math..

[Xrati]

Thanks Baron, that was an interesting article. I believe that all corporations, including agro-business are going to price themselves out of the market. As they become larger they keep adding on more office jobs and lose the extra profit they may have gained from growth. They keep blaming THE WORKERS while most big companies are so top heavy they can no longer profit until they reduce the non-product related jobs. This article confirms it on these farms that use horses. They are tripling their profits (far better then corporate farms) by getting away from mechanization of their farm equipment which is reducing their maint. bills and no overhead.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Just a note on the last post. Can you say "A breath of fresh air?" BUT even that pollution is better then what we are currently doing!

[Kamog]

Horses are smart. I've only ridden a horse once so far but it was fun. I just sat on it and didn't have to do anything. If the road turned to the left, the horse automatically turned and I was so impressed that I didn't have to steer, and the horse didn't crash into the wall! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Up until then, I've never driven something that has its own AI autopilot!

[Atrocities]

Cars get you from point A to point B. Here everything is so spread out that walking or biking it just isn't practicle unless you live within 10 miles of your destination. Where I live it rains 85% of the year so that factors into things as well.

Just invent a cheap, renewable, environmentally friendly, low cost fuel source that works in all current gas or desiel powered vehicels and call it Good Gas. This way we can tell the Arabs to go with Ala and not have to interfer in their interal business and the way they live.

[El_Phil]

Xrati said:
Thanks Baron, that was an interesting article. I believe that all corporations, including agro-business are going to price themselves out of the market. As they become larger they keep adding on more office jobs and lose the extra profit they may have gained from growth. They keep blaming THE WORKERS while most big companies are so top heavy they can no longer profit until they reduce the non-product related jobs. This article confirms it on these farms that use horses. They are tripling their profits (far better then corporate farms) by getting away from mechanization of their farm equipment which is reducing their maint. bills and no overhead.




**bangs head into wall**

So going back to Agricultural revloution farming is the way forward is it?

So 90 hours work for 100 boxes of corn is better than 2.5 hours work for the same amount? That's the difference mechanisation makes. Yields of corn are tricky, I assume these farmers do you fertiliser, pesticides etc? If they do they shold get good yeilds, if if they don't it will be far lower.

Anyway with a small farm you can spend hours on one acre, when your farming thousands of Hectares of land in fields bigger than most of these horse farms it just isn't practical.

Oh and that's triple per acre NOT triples profits, if its true. Which I doubt as its from a self confessed bias source who has no reason to be positive about agri-biz.

The corporation still has so many advantages over small scale that they aren't going out of buisness. All those extra office jobs aren't for fun, they're what the law requires. Health and Safety, pensions, tax deductions, etc. No-one wants them, but you have to have them to stay in buisness.

I would put money that is the US version of the health and safety boys turned up on any of those farms they would tear them apart. They are going to be breaking dozens of rules and regulations. I'm not saying they're dangerous, but I bet they don't have risk assessments, impact plans and all the paperwork a company has to have by law.

All that paperwork is a waste of space, but that doesn't make it any less a legal requirement. One man and his horse can hide under the radar and not bother with it, a large corporation can't.

[Xrati]

ZERO gas = ZERO mechanization = Zero Food http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Most large companies now hire through contracted 'Head-Hunters'.
Pensions are being forfeited in place of bankruptcy.
OSHA plans are administered by department supervisors along with the workers. They are overseen by outside consultants.

Horses are the future unless you want to go to a camel?

[El_Phil]

Bloody hell, petrol gets a bit more expensive and suddenly the world has ended. There is still decades of oil, at least, left. What's next? We're all going to have to live 'Fallout' style?

Horses are not the future, at all. I doubt anyone bar those hores farmers family actually get fed from the food they make. Even then it requires someone, somewhere, to do a real job to buy that food from the farmer.

It's a nice story, but even mechanised farming is very hard work, during harvest and planting time at least. For a horse farmer it'll be back breaking, or you're farming bugger all land.

You hire head-hunters so you don't hire an internal HR goon to do it. If the firm goes down the pan, there is no pension. OSHA is an evil invention, its just about paperwork nothing else.

[Xrati]

El_Phil says: "OSHA is an evil invention, its just about paperwork nothing else." Good point. I agree!

El_Phil says: "There is still decades of oil, at least, left." So you have a gauge that lets you know how much we have left? Oil consumption is growing exponentially, we will continue to use more oil then we can produce. With all the uses for oil products we need to find another source for transportation. Are we going to end up waiting for the last drop of oil to be pumped from this planet before we look for an alternate source? It's a win, win situation to get away from oil. While we may never see the end of oil use in our life there is only so much left in the entire world!

[El_Phil]

I'm not saying keep going till it runs out, but equally don't luck at misleading solutions. Farming with horses is nice for local TV items, but it's not a serious idea.

Oh there are decades of oil, for a given value of oil. If you include coal to oil plants and oil shale/sands (which I know are pricey, although perhaps not now compared to $70/barrel) then that exponentialy increases oil stocks.

[Atrocities]

Steam power - nuff said.

[El_Phil]

But what's powering the steam engine? Coal! But we've only got lots of coal, so it'll run out and we'll all die slowly and painfully unless we all become vegans and have solar powered Sinclar C5s!

[Xrati]

LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I've just realized that this thread is starting to resemble that "Monty Python" episode about a Department of Argument!!! (something along those lines)

I think 'nuff said" covers it. Well just have to solve all the worlds problems some other time. Till then "Hi Ho Silver!"

[Atrocities]

"But what powers the steam engine?"

Presto Logs!

[El_Phil]

Xrati said:
LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I've just realized that this thread is starting to resemble that "Monty Python" episode about a Department of Argument!!! (something along those lines)

I think 'nuff said" covers it. Well just have to solve all the worlds problems some other time. Till then "Hi Ho Silver!"



"And away!"

[Xrati]

Prices are down. Let's see how long it take them to raise them to compensate for the lack of sales. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Xrati]

Lincoln Logs of course!

[Kamog]

Prices are still high where I live. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[El_Phil]

Normally I approve of cynicism, as it's appropriate in so many circumstances. But I think your taking this a bit far Xrati. It's just not healthy.

[Xrati]

I guess we all look for something to laugh about when things get tough El_Phil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Just this morning, the price of a barrel went up with OPEC having some kinda production meeting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

[Atrocities]

Article in the new york times, or was it the washington post, I forget, about how the Oil companies are gouging us. Not a very nice picture.