AP ammo: artillery and tanks

[PlasmaKrab]

Could someone explain me where the difference between tank guns and artillery howitzers lies, in terms of in-game AP rounds?
Both use the same weapon class(class 7, Guns, Howitzers > c. 101mm).
Which parameters decide wether a unit using one of these weapons should end up firing AP-APCR-APDS-type stuff or cluster rounds?
Does it comes from the range being over 200 (off-map indirect fire)? Apart from an HEK limit or simply a non-null APK, that's the most plausible possibility I can see.

Can someone help me about this?

[sparfell]

The parameters that decide if unit use tank guns or artillery guns is the "class unit".

[Mobhack]

PlasmaKrab said:
Could someone explain me where the difference between tank guns and artillery howitzers lies, in terms of in-game AP rounds?
Both use the same weapon class(class 7, Guns, Howitzers > c. 101mm).
Which parameters decide wether a unit using one of these weapons should end up firing AP-APCR-APDS-type stuff or cluster rounds?
Does it comes from the range being over 200 (off-map indirect fire)? Apart from an HEK limit or simply a non-null APK, that's the most plausible possibility I can see.

Can someone help me about this?



Those unit classes which fire indirect will treat an AP round as ICM. it's buried inthe mobhack help somewhere.

- try using the same howitzer in an AT gun class for example, and see what happens.

Another reason not to use AP on a howitzer type weapon is the long 200+ hex range - so the same howitzer with an AP weapon may kill at unrealistic ranges (a 25 pounder, say, at 200 hexes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif, as the pull-down for range will be very shallow.

Cheers
Andy

[Marcello]

SPAs will treat them as normal AP rouns if you shoot against tanks in direct fire.

[Beeg]

"Those unit classes which fire indirect will treat an AP round as ICM. it's buried inthe mobhack help somewhere."

I'm trying to keep up with all this military jargon. What does ICM mean?

Beeg

[Marcello]

cluster munitions I guess

[Weeble]

ICM

I mproved C onventional M unition = Cluster/sub-munition type

All it really does is confuse people enough to save the manufacturer from bad press.

[Mobhack]

Actually, as I recall, they will show the cluster graphic. Whether or not they then get confused and treat it as a monobloc AP round...

There are plenty of things in this game engine that just do not work in "edge" situations. The original MBT code appears to have been a total kludge on top of the original SP (WW2) code. The entire code needs throwing away, and a fresh start made on a completely new engine (for the future, if it ever happens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. That would be the only way to get rid of having tube ATGM treated as a second weapon slot etc.

Cheers
Andy

[Marcello]

"Whether or not they then get confused and treat it as a monobloc AP round..."

Well, let's just say that I love that bug.It can be a nasty surprise for any enemy tank sneaking on my SPAs...

[Marek_Tucan]

If you want to model a solid AP round for an artillery weapon, you can throw it in as "sabot", IIRC it is already implemented with 25pdr and 76mm ZIS-3 gun, perhaps some more.

[PlasmaKrab]

Alright, thanks for the answers, Andy and all,

This I what I suspected, I came across the idea of the unit class link shortly after I posted the question, I had been so deep into tweaking the weapons that I couldn't see that far anymore... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

That was just to know if there was some workaround to have tanks firing APers cluster rounds (I know that IMI has been doing one for the Merkava, and there should be some more around). The answer being no.

Now while I'm on it, may I ask how the "cluster" class weapons are parametered in terms of effects?
I guess that like for all other weapons the accuracy is, basically speaking, the chance to hit something (so the one rating to improve when you have several submunitions around), both penetrations are clear enough, now what will be the role of the HEK (and APK respectively)? Does it only influence the amount of damage dealt on unarmored targets? Or has it some more specific link to the "spread" of the weapon, i.e. how many bullets in the cluster?
Like, f.e., can I put a nearly null HEK to weapons releasing "smart" AT seekers or would it have an impact on the overall effect?

Sorry for consistently asking such questions, but I can't run the game right now so I cannot run tests either.

[Marek_Tucan]

With the cluster munitions I am setting the acc rating to be some sort of number of bomblets (I cannot tell the formula off the top of my head, will have to have a look - OK, I thought it was more complicated, but I use just a square root of the number), I am rationalising to myself that more bomblets=more probable you score a hit. Given guided submunitions like MOTIV-M or so, I give HEK of 2, acc of 90 but haven't found whether it is doing something:o)

[PlasmaKrab]

That's about what I thought of regarding accuracy.
For guided submunitions I used a basic downgraded seeker accuracy (accuracy of one submunition), then growing logarithmically (10*log10(n)) with the number.

The problem being that, if you go any forward in this reasoning (more rounds => more P(hit)) you end up linking the accuracy of MGs and autocannons (and sniper rifles f.e.) to their intrinsic RPM rate of fire.

Tuccy, have you tested your HEK=2 weapons to work?
Actually smart rounds like the Motiv or Bonus or Skeet are bound to kill nearly no infantryman, even in the open, since they are specifically AT with an IR seeker. That would be tough luck to catch one on the head or stay nearby when it self-destructs!