Conceptual Balance Mod 5.4

[quantum_mechani]

Despite the rapidly ascending version numbers, the last several versions of the conceptual balance mod have been less and less different from each other, as it approaches a final version. The biggest difference between this version and the last, in fact, is that it comes with a complete readme (well, almost, some hero changes are still not in the readme).

Update: Replaced with 5.4.

[quantum_mechani]

Here is the same conceptual balance v5.4 mod, separated out into pretenders, items, etc.. It also includes the latest Oceania mod.

[PashaDawg]

Thanks, QM.

[Chazar]

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif We will use it now!

A Question: Balance is a tricky thing, so I would like to know the mod's makers opinions on the game-settings on which this balance mod was evaluated. Did you balance with respect to default settings? Or with resepect to the popular MP game settings (i.e. high independent strength, increased magic site frequency, etc.). Well, I don't want to discuss what is perceived as popular, so what are the setting for Magic Site Frequency World Richness Map Size Research difficulty Independent Strengthwhich were predominately used for working out this mod? What are things to consider when altering those with respect to this mod? (...and please do not tell me to use whatever I prefer, I do anyway, but I just seek help to estimate the consequences beforhand).

[quantum_mechani]

Chazar said:
Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif We will use it now!

A Question: Balance is a tricky thing, so I would like to know the mod's makers opinions on the game-settings on which this balance mod was evaluated. Did you balance with respect to default settings? Or with resepect to the popular MP game settings (i.e. high independent strength, increased magic site frequency, etc.). Well, I don't want to discuss what is perceived as popular, so what are the setting for Magic Site Frequency World Richness Map Size Research difficulty Independent Strengthwhich were predominately used for working out this mod? What are things to consider when altering those with respect to this mod? (...and please do not tell me to use whatever I prefer, I do anyway, but I just seek help to estimate the consequences beforhand).

Well, I honestly can't think of any settings you might choose that would really upset balance. The only thing that might qualify is magic sites below 20-30, otherwise blood gets very strong.

If you really want to know what the settings were of most test games with it, though:

Indy 6
Normal World
Normal Research
Default Sites
Smallish world (Urgaia, Aran)

[Edi]

These modifications should work out really well in larger games as well, especially if larger maps use site frequency between 25 and 35. PErsoanlly, I prefer indy strength 7, but I play a lot of games vs the AI. Right now Kaljamaha and I have a v3.0 co-op Ulm-Vanheim game on the small Faerun where Marignon and C'tis are running all over the map and one of them might very well win the game because of the province victory condition.

Edi

[Morkilus]

I've been trying the new mods (combined version) in anticipation of getting some MP in some time, and figured it would be good to practice using them. I came across something odd though... I can't find out why the Winged Shoes now require water gems. Is this a balance issue, or a bug? Or am I out of my mind? It kinda doesn't make sense thematically, anyway. I'm using the Odin-guy as my pretender, so I'm not huring for flying... but still...

[quantum_mechani]

That is certainly a bug, they should take two air.

[Endoperez]

Is it supposed to be 2 Air, as in 10 gems and Air 2 requirement, or 2 Air, as in 2 times 1 pick of Air, 10 gems and Air 1 requirement?

[quantum_mechani]

Endoperez said:
Is it supposed to be 2 Air, as in 10 gems and Air 2 requirement, or 2 Air, as in 2 times 1 pick of Air, 10 gems and Air 1 requirement?


Air 2 requirement. The other way was simply too weird and did not fit with all the other magic items.

[Edi]

It's supposed to be air 2, 10 gems. The problem with the mod is that it says #mainpath 2 when it should say #mainpath 1 (the numbering beginning at 0 for fire, 1 for air and so on). Incompetent of me to have missed that when I did the readme...

Edi

[Morkilus]

So I changed "#mainpath 2" to "#mainlevel 2". Should this make it do what was intended? I figure the path should be default. This is my first (mod)ification, so sorry if I sound n00bish.

[Morkilus]

Uh, I understand why the Wraith sword has no strength added (since it's ethereal and everything), but doesn't 1 attack power make it completely nerfed? I guess if lifedraining was completely bah-roken in the game, it makes sense to obliterate it, if that was the intention. I'd hate to make one without knowing it was completely useless.

[Turin]

attack power is just the added attack skill, which can be further boosted with burning pearl etc. .The damage is still 9, but it´s armornegating now, so you are guaranted to do 9 lifedraining damage with each attack if you hit. Makes the wraith sword a nice situational weapon in my opinion.

Your fix for the winged boots should be correct.

[Chazar]

What precautions must be taken for ongoing MP games? Is it just enough to fix the .dm file on the server?

---

About Balance: My perception is Magic Difficulty and Independent Strength shift the Balance between Nations like Ulm and Caelum, say. Difficult Research and High Independent Strength helps Magic-Weak nations, so a nerfed Caelum might be at too much of a disadvantge.

[quantum_mechani]

Chazar said:
What precautions must be taken for ongoing MP games? Is it just enough to fix the .dm file on the server?

---

About Balance: My perception is Magic Difficulty and Independent Strength shift the Balance between Nations like Ulm and Caelum, say. Difficult Research and High Independent Strength helps Magic-Weak nations, so a nerfed Caelum might be at too much of a disadvantge.

I think everyone would need the fixed mod. I would have released the tiny fix myself but I was waiting to see if more issues would crop up.

I'm not sure high independents really helps magic weak nations, or even difficult research in many cases. In any case, I would not worry about even the nerfed Caelum being weaker than Ulm no matter what settings you choose.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Thats very very cool, now the dokumentation i really like the mods - before it was a kind of "mass randomasation" to me!

I really like it!

[Turin]

I just took the time to look over the hero part of the mod and there are quite a few differences to my version of the mod.

Those probably got accidently in when the redundant lines(which I left in for better visualization of the unit) in my mod were removed.
I noticed some oddities in my version too, apparently the nullmod.dm which I took as the source for the unmodified heroes doesn´t account for the effects of magic schools(like fire giving +1 attack and earth giving +1 prot).
This results for example in some earth mages having natural protection even if there is no thematic reason for that.

So I will update my mod to version 1.3 in a couple of days and will then incorporate it in the complete mod.

The missing changes in this version of the complete mod are mostly hardly noticeable( like a few missing hps/prot/atk points etc) , but the abysian hero lost its s3 magic and vanlade the vanheim hero is back to d2.

[Edi]

There is an issue for the item mod, not related to the Winged Boots.

With the way the Wave Breaker has been improved to be a good weapon, the Trident from Beyond artifact needs some serious beefing up. As it is right now, the artifact is next to useless as a weapon and the only reason you might want to build one is for the water magic boost. Jump its defense and attack up to the same levels as (or even a bit higher than) the wave breaker.

No other issues, though.

Turin, if you really want to make sure that your new version of the heroes mod uses the absolutely correct stats, toss me an email to edirr(at)welho(dot)com. I'll email you an updated version of the Unit DB that lets you see the default values for defense, attack, prot, encumbrance etc regardless of magic, armor, weapons and so forth.

That way you can get things right from the start and we won't have to debug it several times. The reason why redundant lines are missing from the current mod is because when documenting changes from the unmodded game, I hate seeing redundancy in the mod. Too easy to just put those into the readme and make the hero entries unwieldy. It's a pain in the arse trying to see what has been changed and what has not.

Word to the wise: Relying on the old Unit DB file (even with the updates) for encumbrance and defense values is a BAD idea without double checking the BASE values from the game. When I get the reworked one out for public consumption in a few days, it will be the final version, barring any (unlikely) patches to the game itself.

Edi

[PDF]

Son of the Sea has been left with W2 D1 ? Death is IMHO pretty unthematic for him, why give him that (and not, say, N1..) ??

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:
Son of the Sea has been left with W2 D1 ? Death is IMHO pretty unthematic for him, why give him that (and not, say, N1..) ??

Two reasons, the nerid is already water/nature, and I feel death fits well with sea god's traditional role as capricious and vindictive. Not that I feel it is set in stone, but I don't really have a better idea for making him interesting.

[Reverend Zombie]

PDF said:
Son of the Sea has been left with W2 D1 ? Death is IMHO pretty unthematic for him, why give him that (and not, say, N1..) ??


From Wikipedia on Greek sea gods (points to support for either death or nature, IMO):

The sea - at once barren and prosperity-bringing, loomed large and ambivalently in the Greek mind. Aside from the ebb and flow of piracy sea-travel was fraught with superhuman hazard and uncertainty until the Industrial Revolution. It is impossible to assess the spiritual crisis in Aegean cultures' relations with the sea's dangers and the capacity of its divinities that must have been engendered by the tsunamis that accompanied the volcanic explosion and collapse of Thera, ca. 1650 – 1600 BCE. Can the sense of the sea and its deities have survived the cataclysm unchanged? It seems unlikely. The sea could therefore stand as a powerful symbol of the unknown and otherwordly.

Thus Cape Tanaerum, the point at which mainland Greece juts most sharply into the Mediterranean, was at once an important sailor's landmark, a shrine of Poseidon, and the point at which Orpheus and Heracles were said to have entered Hades.

[Cainehill]

As I have said in the past, water and air would really make thematic sense for a pretender like the Son of the Sea. Waves, winds, storms : the oceans may take many lives, but that's merely incidental, collateral damage if you will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PDF]

Cainehill said:

As I have said in the past, water and air would really make thematic sense for a pretender like the Son of the Sea. Waves, winds, storms : the oceans may take many lives, but that's merely incidental, collateral damage if you will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Agreed. I admit Poseidon was not overly a nice dude /threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif, but he has no tie to necromancy either - and THAT'S Death magic. Water+Air is the way to go to have an Ocean/Storm/Wind pretender God.

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:

Cainehill said:

As I have said in the past, water and air would really make thematic sense for a pretender like the Son of the Sea. Waves, winds, storms : the oceans may take many lives, but that's merely incidental, collateral damage if you will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Agreed. I admit Poseidon was not overly a nice dude /threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif, but he has no tie to necromancy either - and THAT'S Death magic. Water+Air is the way to go to have an Ocean/Storm/Wind pretender God.

Air could be argued to fit better... but there are very few air spells that can be cast underwater, while death has many.

[PDF]

Re Flying boots up to A2 : this is IMHO a very bad decision : to me it's not a balance issue if everyone and his mother gets cheap Flying Boots, it will become one with a mod that restrict them this way..
As a result, only the already-powerful Air nations will have easy access to Flying Boots, letting the other ones on the ground, whereas they're already lacking from less mobility !!!

I'm sad to say that, but it looks like this mod is going overboard : Magic items mod makes useful stuff get nerfed whatever the balance effect is, and practically nothing gets any better.
Yet real balance issues are either not really addressed (ID/AD and Bane Lords still dominate mid-late game, still noone never summons crap-drakes), or even worsened (ah the Vine Ogres are *better* now !! Get the factory rollling !!).. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:
Re Flying boots up to A2 : this is IMHO a very bad decision : to me it's not a balance issue if everyone and his mother gets cheap Flying Boots, it will become one with a mod that restrict them this way..
As a result, only the already-powerful Air nations will have easy access to Flying Boots, letting the other ones on the ground, whereas they're already lacking from less mobility !!!

I'm sad to say that, but it looks like this mod is going overboard : Magic items mod makes useful stuff get nerfed whatever the balance effect is, and practically nothing gets any better.
Yet real balance issues are either not really addressed (ID/AD and Bane Lords still dominate mid-late game, still noone never summons crap-drakes), or even worsened (ah the Vine Ogres are *better* now !! Get the factory rollling !!).. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Just so we're clear, look at the readme, how many things got improved vs. how many things got nerfed?

Indeed SCs are still powerful in the mid and late game, I don't see any around that and still have a use for 90% of items. With drakes, I actually see them used quite a bit now, not in the the mid and late much, but that is not what they were intended to be. Vine ogres are not, in my opinion, better or worse. They make better shields than ever, but now have another weakness. Additionally, a lot of other nature summons were improved, making ogres not so much of a no-brainer.

With flying boots, I think putting them at a2 has a number of positive points. A bit harder to do SCs, and less in my opinion unthematic, with as you say everyone and their mother using them. I don't believe it is enough to really tip the balance in favor of air nations, particularly compared to the base game where they have easy wrathing, false horrors and a cheaper staff of storms.

[Turin]

I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

[quantum_mechani]

Turin said:
I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.

I actually don't see the Ivy Kings as so supremely useful, most of the time I prefer lamia queens.

The cave drake is indeed a nice tank, and the ice drake sees quite a bit of action too. The fire drake not so much, because of alchemy, but still used sometimes. The wyvern is actually still pretty bad, particularly compared to black hawks, I will probably improve it slightly next version.

Bane lords I have seen a lot fewer of since they went to 15 gems, together with life drain nerfs. Now it is mostly just the uniques, pretenders and later on tartartains that become army crushers.

[Endoperez]

Unfortunately, Water has even less spells castable underwater than Air:

Water-based Evocations:
Cold Bolt/Blast -no
Slime -no
Rain -no
Water Strike -yes
Falling Frost -no
Ice Strike -no
Niefel Flames -no
Murdering Winter -yes (castable, but not targettable)

Total: 1 castable combat spell. Of the Water/Fire combination, only Geyser works underwater.

Air-based Evocations:
Lightning bolt -yes
Shock Wave -yes
Mist -no
Thunder Strike -yes
Orb Lightning -yes
Storm -no
Wrathful Skies -no
Shimmering Field -yes

total: Mist is negated, but archers can't be used underwater. Besides that, Air only loses Storm and Wrathful Skies; all 5 other Air evocations can be cast underwater.

Water/Air Freezing Mist can't be cast underwater. And I forgot Globals, it seems. On combat boosts, Water gets Water Shield (+5? def), but neither loses anything. Even Mistform works underwater.

Googling define:poseidon yielded an interesting idea:
"God of the sea and earthquakes. Horses and bulls are sacred to him. Originally the god of earth tremors, of vegetation and fecundity, Poseidon fought for the Olympians against the Titans, and his reward after the victory was dominion over the seas, lakes and rivers. Poseidon's fits of rage manifest as storms"

Water-Earth, anyone? Besides Water, only earth, mud and rocks are easily found under water. And Death, for some. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Mechanical Men, Iron Dragons and Enlivened Statues can go underwater, even though MMs have to be constructed on land. Earth and Water/Earth Evocations don't work underwater, but all the boosts do.

It would also make Shrouds of the Saint an interesting option for both Atlantis and R'lyeh. 50% Quickness, reinvigoration 5 and natural prot +5 (maybe +9 with +5 armour of Shroud?) for no extra encumberance seems like a good deal for mages. And the fun I would have with Enchantment-driven Claymen - Enlivened Statues fest with W9E9... I considered modding a Head of Clay pretender god just to try out crazy Pythium blessing goodness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Oversway]

Isn't frozen heart castable underwater? I think you overlooked that one. Numbness, and sailors death, too. I'm not sure why you restricted it to evocation only...

He already was water-earth. I'm not really sure why people wanted to change it, I guess to be more interesting.

I'd say that earth or air make for a better SC than death or nature, although nature wouldn't be that awful.

---

I see drakes used more as well. I think the buffs are great for them. Not sure about the gem cost. Since they are such a low level summon, usually people get better options and so don't summon many of them.

--

Anyways I'll be happy with whatever is done. I think this mod is a great improvement over the base game.

[Endoperez]

Oversway said:
Isn't frozen heart castable underwater? I think you overlooked that one. Numbness, and sailors death, too. I'm not sure why you restricted it to evocation only...



To tell the truth, I was being lazy.



He already was water-earth. I'm not really sure why people wanted to change it, I guess to be more interesting.

---
I see drakes used more as well. I think the buffs are great for them. Not sure about the gem cost. Since they are such a low level summon, usually people get better options and so don't summon many of them.

--

Anyways I'll be happy with whatever is done. I think this mod is a great improvement over the base game.



I haven't yet used this mod much, but it does add a new level of experimentation to the whole game. That alone is worth it, and with the addition of more gold/gem-efficient choices... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Great fun!

[PDF]

Turin said:
I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.



About Ivy Kings and Ogres, it's exactly the problem.
And Ivy Kings should *not* be able to "reproduce" so easily, so have N2 instead of 3 and cost a little more.
Ogres should be back to their base stats and costs 2 or 3 gems.
I don't see any Drakes in my games, and IMHO they should cost 4 to 6, no more. Who'll care to have such high-cost, one-per-summoning, sort of critters except in the very early game - where gems are quite scarce ?

ID/AD are still very powerful, and too easy to get by non blood nations, I suggest to make them B4W3/B4F3.
Also Devils are still too strong : "real" devils should have some less HP (32, like a Jotun) and morale 15 for all kind of devils, 18 still makes them rather unbreakable.

Maybe I'm going to make my own mod ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:

Turin said:
I think that the problem with the vine ogre isn´t the vine ogre himself, but rather the ivy kings. I doubt anyone complains about precious n3 mages forging an ivy crown and then using their time getting 2 ogres per turn. Especially when you compare them to lamias.

The ivy king on the other hand doubles that efficiency and is already a bargain summon. A very high hp, no encumbrance n3 mage for only 20 gems is really sweet.

Regarding the drakes, I find all of them to costly with the exception of the cave drake, which makes an excellent tank. The others should drop to 6 gems in price.

As for Scs/thugs, the nerf to lifedrain weapons makes them a bit less dominant, Ice and arch devils are fine now imho, but banelords are still to cheap. I would raise the price to 20 gems.



About Ivy Kings and Ogres, it's exactly the problem.
And Ivy Kings should *not* be able to "reproduce" so easily, so have N2 instead of 3 and cost a little more.
Ogres should be back to their base stats and costs 2 or 3 gems.
I don't see any Drakes in my games, and IMHO they should cost 4 to 6, no more. Who'll care to have such high-cost, one-per-summoning, sort of critters except in the very early game - where gems are quite scarce ?

ID/AD are still very powerful, and too easy to get by non blood nations, I suggest to make them B4W3/B4F3.
Also Devils are still too strong : "real" devils should have some less HP (32, like a Jotun) and morale 15 for all kind of devils, 18 still makes them rather unbreakable.

Maybe I'm going to make my own mod ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Hmm... I'm not sure I understand, I thought you were criticizing the mod for being _too_ extreme?

I don't know why you don't see drakes in your games, probably play to big of maps? When you are in conflict around turn 20 or before they are highly useful.

Your suggested nerf to the ivy king would nerf him to oblivion, and the ogres would be rarely if ever used.

[PDF]

QM,
I criticized the mod for having nerfed things that did'nt require it/were not unbalancing. OTOH I've noticed that some things were still too strong, mostly Blood Summons (Elem Rulers went up to Conj7/path7, ID only to Blood6/B3W3)

As for my nerfs, why would having IK only nature-2 and not capable of summoning easily their own kind so bad as to make them useless ? (and BTW, another, less nerfing, way to make it would be to make the summon Nat5 )
And even at 3 gems/spell, VO summoned by batches of 3-4 would still make very cheap and good chaff. What can you have in such great number for such a low price ?
About drakes, maybe they're useful on turns 15-20, but as I wrote, how many will you make with the poor gem income you get at that stage ? And noone will make them anymore once they have a decent research/gem income ...

[quantum_mechani]

PDF said:
QM,
I criticized the mod for having nerfed things that did'nt require it/were not unbalancing. OTOH I've noticed that some things were still too strong, mostly Blood Summons (Elem Rulers went up to Conj7/path7, ID only to Blood6/B3W3)

As for my nerfs, why would having IK only nature-2 and not capable of summoning easily their own kind so bad as to make them useless ? (and BTW, another, less nerfing, way to make it would be to make the summon Nat5 )
And even at 3 gems/spell, VO summoned by batches of 3-4 would still make very cheap and good chaff. What can you have in such great number for such a low price ?
About drakes, maybe they're useful on turns 15-20, but as I wrote, how many will you make with the poor gem income you get at that stage ? And noone will make them anymore once they have a decent research/gem income ...

As the matter of fact, elemental royalty is back to 5, while IDs remain nerfed. And yes, making ivy kings more expensive and n2 would make them pretty much useless. Making them take an n5 mage would by ok, but if you see it as an abuse it would just restrict/delay the abuse for a few nations. I would not pay 1 gem for a vine ogre most of the time, when you figure in the difficulty of getting an n3 mage and an ivy crown. Though, I suppose I could make the ogre spell 2 gems and see how that works out.

Gem income may be relatively low early in the game, but by turn ten your start site has usually produced 50 gems that remain unspent. If you are in an early war it very much pays to pour those into drakes and similar summons. And yes, they will be rarely used once you research better spells, but what would be the point of research if you did not get better things? I believe the low research niche was all thy were intended to fill in the first place.

[Edi]

I actually like the cave drakes least of all of them. High prot and lots of HP, yes, but low defense and not such a spectacular damage. The frost and fire drakes, on the other hand, ain't nothing like them early on to blast away the dirt and chaff. Just a few with a screen of infantry out front will be murder on indies or even early armies of other players. Though gem cost 6 or 7 would make them slightly more attractive than they are even now.

The elem royals could perhaps be at #6 if they need adjustment?

Edi

[archaeolept]

i'd up the ivy kings to 25 maybe, but that's all

[Graeme Dice]

PDF said:
About Ivy Kings and Ogres, it's exactly the problem.



Why do so many people think that vine ogres are so dangerous when they are only slightly more useful than the infinite skeletons from raise skeleton?


ID/AD are still very powerful, and too easy to get by non blood nations, I suggest to make them B4W3/B4F3.



A SC without effective lifedraining can be taken out quite easily by your elite national troops. The devil commanders can never be made 0 encumbrance, so they will always tire out eventually.

[quantum_mechani]

Graeme Dice said:

A SC without effective lifedraining can be taken out quite easily by your elite national troops. The devil commanders can never be made 0 encumbrance, so they will always tire out eventually.

Not quite, properly equipped (including regeneration and reinvigorating), few national troops alone would be capable of defeating them.

[shovah]

hordes of mindblast ......

[Graeme Dice]

quantum_mechani said:
Not quite, properly equipped (including regeneration and reinvigorating), few national troops alone would be capable of defeating them.



You would have some trouble covering both regeneration and reinvigoration without leaving them open to elemental or MR based attacks attacks though.

[quantum_mechani]

Graeme Dice said:

quantum_mechani said:
Not quite, properly equipped (including regeneration and reinvigorating), few national troops alone would be capable of defeating them.



You would have some trouble covering both regeneration and reinvigoration without leaving them open to elemental or MR based attacks attacks though.

Certainly, but still, elite troops alone won't usually cut it.

[Arralen]

Btw:

Milita #18 still has 2 shields in CBM 5.0 !!
Obviously, there's some ordering of the slots involved, and equipment seemingly does not have a 'type': The shield from the mod overwrote the helmet, but didn't erase the shield already there. So, if you wish to alter the equipment of a given unit, list all of it's intended equipment in the mod. Maybe even clear the unit completely...

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/386544-militia18.png

[PDF]

About Vine Ogres : I don't find them ultra-powerful, but
1/ They are an incredible bargain at 1 to 4 Ogres PER GEM ! Cite me anything even marginally useful costing that little... For example you can get 32 of them for the cost of those famous Drakes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

2/ The whole Ogre Factory stuff is totally gamey. With say 10 natures/turn, every 2 turns you get an Ivy King (summoned by a previous IK with a Mace), all kings set to Ogre summoning, you get ridiculous masses of Ogres. Kind of same than clam-hoarding, gamey ... So it has to be addressed, the most obvious way being to prevent auto-summoning of IK so at least you've to devote some mage(s) to do the work !!

[Arralen]

Clams and Fetishes do not burn that well, though ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

Spirit Mastery comes to mind in the "cheap bunch of troops" department. Spirits are about as expensive as Ogres, are a lot easier to summon, and can still be useful (Stealthy+Ethereal+sheer numbers for annoyance).

[Edi]

Arralen said:
Btw:

Milita #18 still has 2 shields in CBM 5.0 !!
Obviously, there's some ordering of the slots involved, and equipment seemingly does not have a 'type': The shield from the mod overwrote the helmet, but didn't erase the shield already there. So, if you wish to alter the equipment of a given unit, list all of it's intended equipment in the mod. Maybe even clear the unit completely...

<snip image>


Well, you learn something new everyday. I didn't know this could happen.


Clearing the unit completely is not usually necessary. However, weapons and armor must be reassigned. This assumes that there is going to be the same or greater number of weapons or armor, or this sort of thing results.

I'm not sure about the weapons, but it certainly seems that way for armor. I had assumed that the first #armor command for a specific monster nullifies previous armor assignments, but apparently the #clear command must be used. This is again something that the modding manual is silent on.

Edi

[Turin]

The #armor command seems to work in the following way:

When modifying a unit the first #armor command overrides the first slot(usually a helmet), the second command the second armor slot(usually the armor), the third command the third slot( the shield usually).

It doesn´t matter what kind of armor it is, you can easily give a unit three helmets.You can´t assign more than 3 armor s though.

So for modding purposes you always have to list all the intended armor, except when you only want to modify the helmet, or you only want to modify the helmet and the armor.
But to avoid mistakes I´d always list the full intended equipment.

#Weapon seems to work the same way, but you can assign 4 weapons to a unit.

[Cainehill]

Hrm. Any news on a 5.1? A week or two back it sounded like one might be coming soon......

[jeffr]

I've tried out using vine whips under 4.0, but they don't seem to entangle the defender. The whip is hitting (it always should because of the AOE, right?) because I hear the "whip sound" and see a reduction in hps (I think), but the entangle animation (a la tangle vines) doesn't display nor is the defender's defence lowered.

Anyone know how the vine whip is supposed to work?

[Ironhawk]

QM - what was the intention with the change to the Wraith Sword?

Cause I've just finished up my third or fourth game using 5.0 and I'm surprised to hear so little in this thread about it? I tested it out with a load of SCs and its really quite weak now. On more than one occassion I saw militia (militia!!) survive hits from the new sword. I was astonished!

[shovah]

that just sounds wrong, WRONG! militia being able to survive hits from any magic weapon with decent strength behind it is just plain wrong

[Turin]

it does 9 armornegating nostrength added damage. So you will always deal 9 damage if you hit regardless of strength and armor.

Reasoning behind this is that it´s sort of an ethereal blade(hence the name wraith sword) that has a life of its own, so armor offers no protection, but you can´t swing it harder with your strength.

So it´s a good weapon vs SCs/Thugs with high protection, but pretty useless vs masses of troops. The damage might be a bit low, maybe 12 damage would be a better value.

[shovah]

12 does sound a little better as an etheral blade should be able to take out regular people (still prefer my golems with astral weapon though)

[Ironhawk]

Turin said:
it does 9 armornegating nostrength added damage. So you will always deal 9 damage if you hit regardless of strength and armor.

Reasoning behind this is that it´s sort of an ethereal blade(hence the name wraith sword) that has a life of its own, so armor offers no protection, but you can´t swing it harder with your strength.

So it´s a good weapon vs SCs/Thugs with high protection, but pretty useless vs masses of troops. The damage might be a bit low, maybe 12 damage would be a better value.



Right. But even armor negating checks are opposed, arent they? So it would be 9dam +2d6oe vs 0prot +2d6oe. Which means you only have less than a 50/50 chance of killing a regular infantry unit with 10hp.

Im fine with it being no strength add, but its rough that you spend 15-20 gems on a weapon that cannot even reliably kill weak units. 12 damage would make it kill regular pretty well I guess. So yeah 12 or 13 dam would make it good vs chaff inf and ok vs elite inf. That seems ok.

And as for it being a specialized SC Killer... I dont really see how? Ok so its armor negating... but if you really want to kill an SC, an anti-SC with high str and Gate Cleaver or a multiplier weapon (like Herald Lances/Flambeau) will do far more damage.

[shovah]

exactly, just take a few commander, give him a gate cleaver, winged shoes, and burning pearl and ring of the warrior and send them at someones SC, with high attack and huge damage the sc is basically dead from the start, or you could stick a gate cleaver on a nataraja and give him a hell sword aswell, mega anti sc

[Turin]

Ironhawk said:

Right. But even armor negating checks are opposed, arent they? So it would be 9dam +2d6oe vs 0prot +2d6oe. Which means you only have less than a 50/50 chance of killing a regular infantry unit with 10hp.

Im fine with it being no strength add, but its rough that you spend 15-20 gems on a weapon that cannot even reliably kill weak units. 12 damage would make it kill regular pretty well I guess. So yeah 12 or 13 dam would make it good vs chaff inf and ok vs elite inf. That seems ok.

And as for it being a specialized SC Killer... I dont really see how? Ok so its armor negating... but if you really want to kill an SC, an anti-SC with high str and Gate Cleaver or a multiplier weapon (like Herald Lances/Flambeau) will do far more damage.



well the thing that kills should be the fatigue effect, which stays unless the SC has some sort of fatigue recovery and eventually the SC should be overwhelmed by your accompanying troops. Specialized weapons should always be better than a weapon that is generally effective, so no problems with flambeau or herald lance.
The gate cleaver is a very good weapon, but earth gems are very precious and the att/def stats are pretty bad and it wouldn´t be as effective vs masses of cheap troops as the 12 damage wraithsword.

So hopefully the wraithsword will turn out to be a weapon that will be ok all around, but beaten by specialized weapons in their respective specialities.

[Wish]

wand of wild fire is showing up as a sceptre of authority in the weapon slot

[quantum_mechani]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
wand of wild fire is showing up as a sceptre of authority in the weapon slot

This is not a mod issue, nor can it be fixed with modding.

On the vine whip, making it area of effect seems to have broken it's vine ability. Same with the star of heroes anti-armour ability. Next version should correct these by finding a different way to boost them.

[jeffr]

On the vine whip, making it area of effect seems to have broken it's vine ability.



Damn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif There goes one strategy out the window. AOE + entangle seemed like a powerful combo.

[Graeme Dice]

Turin said:
it does 9 armornegating nostrength added damage. So you will always deal 9 damage if you hit regardless of strength and armor.



9+2d6-2d6 actually, but it will average at 9 damage.

[silhouette]

jeffr said:

On the vine whip, making it area of effect seems to have broken it's vine ability.



Damn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif There goes one strategy out the window. AOE + entangle seemed like a powerful combo.


Well... only if you are thinking about it only from the offensive point of view. I still remember the first time I put a vine shield on a tartarian and attacked a triton province. It's pretty close to the same thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Sill

[shovah]

how about something that radiates heat with charcoal shield, vine shield and chi shoes/horned helm (to attack)

[Oversway]

On the vine whip, making it area of effect seems to have broken it's vine ability. Same with the star of heroes anti-armour ability. Next version should correct these by finding a different way to boost them.



Its been awhile, but the false fetters morning star got AoE in this mod? I don't think that worked, either.

All in all this is totally a great mod, and nearly everyone agrees since almost all mp games that I've seen posted use it.

[Cainehill]

Ouch! Is it really intentional that some "heroes" have a morale of _8_??? Broken Empire Ermor gets Zirru the Grand Thaumaturg who's fairly decent - but I find it hard to believe that any national hero is supposed to have morale 8. Unless maybe they're hobbits, or otherwise mentioned as being cowards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Turin]

no it doesn´t make much sense. He has a morale of 7 actually in the base game and I overlooked that incredibly low score when making the hero mod. Should be fixed to 13 or 14 if a new version gets made http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif . Thanks for pointing it out.

[Cainehill]

Yeah, I checked it last night and even in the base game he comes with 7 or 8. Think it's a bug of sorts.

[Morkilus]

Any idea on when an "official 5.1" may be finished? Q.M.? Not badgering, just wondering if it's in the works.

[quantum_mechani]

The attachments on first two posts have been updated to the latest version. Readmes are still unfortunately 5.0 until Edi returns or someone takes up the project.

Highlights of 5.2:

*Boots of flying bug fixed

*Vine whip and star of heroes rebalanced, no longer AoE

*Hammer of the mountains now 100 damage unique artifact

*Minor nerfs to vine people (men and ogres slightly less prot, ogres and kings slightly less HP, kings cost slightly more)

*Treelords once again immobile

*Supplies and resources somewhat more common

*Amulet of vengeance, knife of the damned, star of thraldom, star of heroes, horn of valour, whip of command, and champions skull are all now trinkets

*Wraith sword is now 15 damage

*Wyverns are now 5 gems

*Demon Jester's AN weapon toned down to 1 damage

[shovah]

yay, new CB! i like the sound of hammer of the mountains now (it+golem+astral weapon=dead SC)

[Morkilus]

Sounds like some excellent changes. Thanks for the work, and all the discussion and testing that went into it.

[Cainehill]

shovah said:
yay, new CB! i like the sound of hammer of the mountains now (it+golem+astral weapon=dead SC)



Unless going against a 30+ defense SC - whiff! Whiff! whiff! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Cainehill]

quantum_mechani said:
Highlights of 5.2:




Cool! Thanks Quantum - have a happy new year!

[Truper]

There appears to be a bug with resources in the new version. Troops that one should have enough resources to build remain in the queue. Watch this space for details, and for 5.3 (sigh).

[quantum_mechani]

Truper said:
There appears to be a bug with resources in the new version. Troops that one should have enough resources to build remain in the queue. Watch this space for details, and for 5.3 (sigh).

I have not been able to re-produce the problem though, so until more people encounter it I'm just going to ignore it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Truper]

I had it happen again in a test game today. The problem may not be resource-related though. I found a loremaster site, so I of course recruited one. Loremasters only take 1 resource, and the province had 22, but the Loremaster didn't show up until the turn after he should have. Perhaps its actually gold calculations that are being interfered with in some way?

[shovah]

or perhaps something such drained your gold in such a way that he was unable to be produced? (i dont see how though since you pay for him during your turn)

[Cainehill]

Truper said:
I had it happen again in a test game today. The problem may not be resource-related though. I found a loremaster site, so I of course recruited one. Loremasters only take 1 resource, and the province had 22, but the Loremaster didn't show up until the turn after he should have. Perhaps its actually gold calculations that are being interfered with in some way?



Unrest wasn't over 100, was it?

[Morkilus]

Not sure if this bug is associated with this version of the mod or not, but the Totem Shield appears as Leather Shield in the text part of a commander when when it is equipped.

[Arralen]

IIRC that's an old error in DOM itself.

[shovah]

never noticed it (dont have a big thing for trinkets)

[Morkilus]

I got a totem shield from a random and wanted to try it out... you get all sorts of cool stuff when you take Turmoil3 Luck3. Once I got two "you found an item" events in one turn and they were Dwarven Hammer and Soul Contract http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[shovah]

a free soul contract. you lucky dog

[Endoperez]

Morkilus said:
I got a totem shield from a random and wanted to try it out... you get all sorts of cool stuff when you take Turmoil3 Luck3. Once I got two "you found an item" events in one turn and they were Dwarven Hammer and Soul Contract http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Ooh... I'll tell my Story of Woe, once more!

Post#323415 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=323415)

It includes me losing the turn I get two Great Treasures, with a full deck of SC equipment already forged, and without Arch Devil as I was few castings of Summon Imps short, and then lacked a booster. Robe of the Magi would have been REALLY useful if I hadn't died out that very turn! /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

[Wish]

I think the most pressing issue is that a gift of reasoned vanhiem moose only has 2 misc slots. what are they carrying their bows with!

I have reasoned it out, they should get mounted commander slots, with an extra pair of hands and a head, the reasoning:

The one driving the moose would be the one an enemy would need to take out to take out the entire moose. (or the moose itself) thus the unit would benefit from the driver's armor, just like a knight or mounted commander does. however, since there is a passenger, they should be able to hold a second bow (as the do) and wear a second helmet.

dang it I want a kick *** black hearted moose assassin!

[RonD]

Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

[Cainehill]

Morkilus said:
I got a totem shield from a random and wanted to try it out... you get all sorts of cool stuff when you take Turmoil3 Luck3. Once I got two "you found an item" events in one turn and they were Dwarven Hammer and Soul Contract http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Heh. Got a staff of the elements once, and often things like staff of storms. Turmoil / Luck / Magic is great fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Cainehill said:

Morkilus said:
I got a totem shield from a random and wanted to try it out... you get all sorts of cool stuff when you take Turmoil3 Luck3. Once I got two "you found an item" events in one turn and they were Dwarven Hammer and Soul Contract http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Heh. Got a staff of the elements once, and often things like staff of storms. Turmoil / Luck / Magic is great fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Indeed. Pity Ulm can't benefit from it... They could really use the constant rain of trinkets and gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[shovah]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
I think the most pressing issue is that a gift of reasoned vanhiem moose only has 2 misc slots. what are they carrying their bows with!

I have reasoned it out, they should get mounted commander slots, with an extra pair of hands and a head, the reasoning:

The one driving the moose would be the one an enemy would need to take out to take out the entire moose. (or the moose itself) thus the unit would benefit from the driver's armor, just like a knight or mounted commander does. however, since there is a passenger, they should be able to hold a second bow (as the do) and wear a second helmet.

dang it I want a kick *** black hearted moose assassin!



is the moose stealthy? if so a black hearted moose would be fun (give it some precision items and 2x black bow/etheral cross bow/bow of war :p)

[Wish]

it is stealthy, but it only has two misc slots and nothing else, as it rests in CB 5.1 anyway

[shovah]

yea, i still want my feeble minding instant killing moose assassin. i think they should make a recruitable moose commander, stealthy or not (i really want to load up on bows of war and FLAMING ARROWS :p)

[Cainehill]

Could always empower the moose assassin with air or nature so it could cast Aim / Eagle Eyes after you GoR it. Not to mention prophetizing it - with F9 the kick and antlers would both get the AP bonus damage. Maybe F9W9 prophet moose assasin. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[RonD]

No realli! She was Karving her initials on the møøse
with the sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush given
her by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and
star of many Norwegian møvies: "The Høt Hands of an Oslo
Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge Mølars of Horst
Nordfink".

[Truper]

Vanheim's Asynja is back to her old A2, rather than S1 N1 as in previous versions of CB. Is this intended?

[Cainehill]

V5.0, there was separate mods that could be turned on for nations, etc, but V5.2 there's only one file containing everything. Isn't there supposed to be separate mods still?

Also : Turin's hero mod had Arco's Orokestes with a small (10 or 20) forge bonus, which he doesn't have currently. (Anthromachus lost his immortality at the same time, but that's back now.)

[quantum_mechani]

Cainehill said:
V5.0, there was separate mods that could be turned on for nations, etc, but V5.2 there's only one file containing everything. Isn't there supposed to be separate mods still?

Also : Turin's hero mod had Arco's Orokestes with a small (10 or 20) forge bonus, which he doesn't have currently. (Anthromachus lost his immortality at the same time, but that's back now.)

The Orokestes change was intentional, I just didn't see the thematic argument for a forge bonus. Asynja was also intentional, though I'm still not entirely happy with her.

The split mods are still available in the same place, they are updated to 5.2, IIRC.

[Turin]

well I gave the orokestes the forge bonus, because it says n his flavour text that he had a long search for knowledge and learned a lot of magic, so more efficient item forging fits.

But the main reason is that the forgebonus makes him an interesting hero. Base game he is just another mystic with priest levels. The priest levels are mostly useless and lots of one path magic makes him most useful as a researcher. So he is just plain boring.
With the forge bonus he will play an important part in your game, because you will want to figure out how to best equip him with boosters to forge your important items and he will generally play an important role. So he suddenly becomes interesting.

[shovah]

and then give him a dwarven hammer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Cainehill]

I'm with Turin, even though I usually don't like to play Arco. Without the bonus, he's little better than any of their other mages; with it, he's.... heroic, and you're glad to get him.

That "Glad to get them" feeling was what I really liked about Turin's mod. I'd almost rather see them split back out, and load Turin's heroes separate from CB.

And hah! Two days ago, www.dominions-2.org (http://www.dominions-2.org) only had the 5.0 version of the split CB mod - I DLed it and looked inside, but now it's updated. Thanks, whomever.

[Arryn]

Cainehill said:
Two days ago, www.dominions-2.org (http://www.dominions-2.org) only had the 5.0 version of the split CB mod - I DLed it and looked inside, but now it's updated. Thanks, whomever.


You're welcome.

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:

Cainehill said:
Two days ago, www.dominions-2.org (http://www.dominions-2.org) only had the 5.0 version of the split CB mod - I DLed it and looked inside, but now it's updated. Thanks, whomever.


You're welcome.



Woot! Arryn, nice to see you're still around - happy new year, and thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Oversway]

I just checked 5.2 and it doesn't seem like anything is done for Wights. They are good but nobody uses them. I guess because death gems have so many other (better) users. I was wondering about lowering the cost a gem or two per wight to make them slightly more attractive.

[Morkilus]

I really like Lictors, or Wights, or whatever they are... heavy armor, high strength, cold radiance... it's much easier on the gem economy to produce Longdead Horsemen, though... more bang for your buck when you have a high-path pretender or kitted Thaummaturg. I still reanimate them when I get the chance.

[shovah]

lictors are the ones that can be reanimated, wights are the etheral ones iirc

[Oversway]

Wights are not etheral. Both Lictors and Wights are heavy armor, high strength, cold radiance. Wights have bane blades and better prot (22 vs 16). Lictors have battle axes and are summoned from AE. Wights are avaliable to anyone. But no one summons them... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[shovah]

cudve sworn wights were etheral, and i think no-one summons them due to things like banelords being around

[Endoperez]

Wight Lords are different from the plain Wights. There are non-commander Banes as well, IIRC.

[Morkilus]

Wight lords? Non-commander banes? The wee Banes are commanders as well, and it's kinda silly that the physically simiar Wights only cost 3 gems less than full-fledged Banes. I once make an army of banes and wights, because I obviously had nothing better to do with my death gems and onyx amazons. They did pretty well vs indies, though I did take too many eventual losses to make them worth it compared to a good ol' Bane Lord. I just wish the Wights didn't cost so much, or were easier to summon (give the revenants something to do!)

[Endoperez]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif I just realized, Wraith Lords are ethereal... but they aren't Wights.

I haven't actually summoned Banes in a long time. I had forgotten they were commanders as well.

[Sandman]

Some T'ien Chi suggestions for the mod:

Better starting commanders: T'ien Chi has hands down the worst starting commanders of any nation. A scout and a eunuch - total gold value 45. And the eunuch is an utterly useless unit. Give them a General instead.

Better eunuchs: Cut the cost to 20, give them map-move 2 and consider making them sacred.

Altered resource requirements: The Red Guards have a higher resource cost than the Imperial cavalry, despite having the exact same equipment...

[Oversway]

Found a bug in cb 5.2:

The line to edit Triton Knight is using the wrong monster number (577), which is for the Triton Trooper. I think this might also set the second shape incorrectly. The correct number for Triton Kinght is 1060, according to the documentation (which appears correct, only the .dm file is wrong).

[Gin]

I'm sorry, but could someone please tell me how to install the CB mod? I didn't see any instructions in the zip file. Also, I'm unclear as to why there are 2 different downloads for the mod. (Post 1 and 2)
I'm new to the game so would appreciate your help.
Thanks
Gin

[Peacekeeper]

first thing you need to do is check wherever you installed dominions for a "mods" folder. if its there, all you need to do is unzip the .dm file to the mods folder and the .tga(or whatever it is) into the maps folder.(if its not there, just create a new folder named mods and do the same thing)

go into dominions, select preferences --> Mods, then enable the 5.2CB, and your set!

[Gin]

Thank you!
Gin

[KissBlade]

I'm wondering too ... why the heck does TC's starting commanders suck so terribly compared to everyone else's starting? The starting commanders should all be somewhat equal in cold cost ...

[Oversway]

You think so? I think it should be the nations should be equal to each other, but not necessarily the starting commanders.

[KissBlade]

alright if that's true ... then why the heck does Vanheim have such a vastly superior starting commanders compared to base TC? It's not exactly like TC is the epitome of broken or Vanheim is the suck.

[Oversway]

Maybe the right way to "fix" TC is with starting commanders. I wouldn't know. I just don't think that


The starting commanders should all be somewhat equal in cold cost ...



makes for as fun of a game. For me, the more different nations play, the better.

[NTJedi]

Questions:
Reviewing the CB 5.2 readme text of the changes and I have some questions.

1) Why has AIM been given Precision of 100?? I believe the original 5 was way too low... but an increase to 100 seems way too much. That's giving a mage perfection at casting.... a bonus of 22 feels more accurate. lvl_1 alteration

2) Why is Baleful Star only 1 astral?? Reading the spell description I believed this spell gave a percentage chance for troops to be cursed in the target province... for 1 astral that's way too good of a deal. Perhaps I'm wrong on what the spell does. lvl_5 alteration

3) I don't see why the spell heal had it's distance reduced by half. Was the spell really too powerful before?
lvl_3 enchantment

4) Why were Foul Air and Lure of the Deep dropped so drastically in gem price?? Seems too extremely easy to get these nasty spells up. lvl_6&7 thaumaturgy

5) Why is the Ivy King more equal in stats with a Vine Ogre?? (Sea)Trolls are not more equal in stats with (Sea)Troll Kings. summoned monster

6) One of the Ice Devils originally had fire immunity which is not listed in the readme text file. Why has his fire immunity been removed for that specific Ice Devil??


The other changes all look good or great from the quick review I finished.

--------------
quick comment: Bog Beasts should have higher morale otherwise they usually quickly flee.

[Graeme Dice]

1) Why has AIM been given Precision of 100?? I believe the original 5 was way too low... but an increase to 100 seems way too much.



Aim provides a boost of 5 precision. The 100 precision on the spell represents the accuracy with which the aim spell will hit the target grid square that the mage that casts it wants it to hit. With the old precision on aim, it could miss, which made it pretty useless compared to eagle eyes.


2) Why is Baleful Star only 1 astral?? Reading the spell description I believed this spell gave a percentage chance for troops to be cursed in the target province... for 1 astral that's way too good of a deal.



It will curse about a dozen troops, which is really weak for the original cost.


4) Why were Foul Air and Lure of the Deep dropped so drastically in gem price?? Seems too extremely easy to get these nasty spells up.



They are very situational, and both use gems that would be much better spent on other things given the original cast. Have you ever seen a game won or lost because of either spell?


6) One of the Ice Devils originally had fire immunity which is not listed in the readme text file. Why has his fire immunity been removed for that specific Ice Devil??



Balance purposes. The ice devils were taken down to -50% fire resistance.

[Wish]

The ice devil still has it, or at least they do in whatver version of CB we're using in CoW

[quantum_mechani]

NTJedi said:
1) Why has AIM been given Precision of 100?? I believe the original 5 was way too low... but an increase to 100 seems way too much. That's giving a mage perfection at casting.... a bonus of 22 feels more accurate. lvl_1 alteration



Trust me, it's still plenty difficult to get it cast on the right thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



2) Why is Baleful Star only 1 astral?? Reading the spell description I believed this spell gave a percentage chance for troops to be cursed in the target province... for 1 astral that's way too good of a deal. Perhaps I'm wrong on what the spell does. lvl_5 alteration



This was a bit overkill boosting, next version it will be somewhere between base and this.


3) I don't see why the spell heal had it's distance reduced by half. Was the spell really too powerful before?
lvl_3 enchantment



Not sure what you mean, I can't mod spell range if I wanted to.


4) Why were Foul Air and Lure of the Deep dropped so drastically in gem price?? Seems too extremely easy to get these nasty spells up. lvl_6&7 thaumaturgy



I have yet to see either cast apart from by the AI, so we'll see.


5) Why is the Ivy King more equal in stats with a Vine Ogre?? (Sea)Trolls are not more equal in stats with (Sea)Troll Kings. summoned monster



I belive many of the ivy king stats were already better than vine ogres.


6) One of the Ice Devils originally had fire immunity which is not listed in the readme text file. Why has his fire immunity been removed for that specific Ice Devil??



Possibly since IIRC his hellsword was removed at some stage of the lifedrain balancing.


quick comment: Bog Beasts should have higher morale otherwise they usually quickly flee.


I'll look into it.

[NTJedi]

Graeme Dice...
I don't follow on the AIM spell... just from the readme document it looks like the precision bonus went from +5 to +100.



It will curse about a dozen troops, which is really weak for the original cost.



If it does a fixed amount between 10-14 units then it should still be 2 astral since a curse is forever. Also I believe the spell causes increased bad luck as well.
However, if the spell does a percentage based on the number of units in the province the cost should be closer to 4 or 5.



They are very situational, and both use gems that would be much better spent on other things given the original cast. Have you ever seen..


I've had or seen many many commander-types, even strong ones, vanish because of the Lure of the Deep spell. For many maps this spell is quite a deal for 40gems.



The ice devil still has it, or at least they do in whatver version of CB we're using in CoW


I hope you're right... there was one ice devil where part of his character was being immune to fire. Sad if that was taken away.


Anyone have an answer for question#5 ?

[Graeme Dice]

NTJedi said:
Graeme Dice...
I don't follow on the AIM spell... just from the readme document it looks like the precision bonus went from +5 to +100.



You can't change the bonus precision that aim provides. WHat you can change is the precision that the mage that casts aim uses to determine where the aim spell lands.


If it does a fixed amount between 10-14 units then it should still be 2 astral since a curse is forever.



A curse is also mostly irrelevant unless it's on one of your SCs.


However, if the spell does a percentage based on the number of units in the province the cost should be closer to 4 or 5.



It only targets a single province, so it's still usually not worthwhile to spend any gems on it.


I've had or seen many many commander-types, even strong ones, vanish because of the Lure of the Deep spell. For many maps this spell is quite a deal for 40gems.



Have you ever lost a game because somebody cast it? It's got an actual cost of several hundred water gems if you want it to last more than a couple of turns.

[quantum_mechani]

Just a note, baleful star also causes 30 unrest which is why in this version it is overpowered.

[shovah]

do they stack? if so just drop 4 stars on each of the enemys production centres (or his capitol if he relys on capitol only). this would actually make domes worthwhile (maybe)

[NTJedi]

aim
Trust me, it's still plenty difficult to get it cast on the right thing.


sounds fine I guess... is there any difference between eagle eye and aim ?? Perhaps a future version can make some type of difference between the two. Just a suggestion.


Baleful Star
This was a bit overkill boosting, next version it will be somewhere between base and this.



Yes consider the unrest, drop in luck and cursing of units this seemed like quite a deal. Excellent to hear the next version will have an adjustment. Do you know if the cursing of units does a percentage or a fixed amount??


heal spell
Not sure what you mean, I can't mod spell range if I wanted to.


my mistake here... I thought 10ft meant feet as in distance... now I see it means fatique.


ivy king
I belive many of the ivy king stats were already better than vine ogres.


Yes... but according to the last readme file the stats of the vine ogres for protection and defense now match the stats of the ivy king. Previously the ivy king was higher... why was this set as equal?
Perhaps +1 and -1 on each side to show a difference.


one of the ice devils
Possibly since IIRC his hellsword was removed at some stage of the lifedrain balancing.


Well just to return this one specific ice devil his character... shouldn't his fire immunity be returned? Otherwise it conflicts with the information about him.


bog beasts
I'll look into it.


Thanks for checking into this... I did many tests with these creatures but found them not useful because they would usually flee.

[Cainehill]

NTJedi said:

aim
Trust me, it's still plenty difficult to get it cast on the right thing.


sounds fine I guess... is there any difference between eagle eye and aim ?? Perhaps a future version can make some type of difference between the two. Just a suggestion.




Eagle Eye being caster-only isn't sufficient of a difference? It means the difference between a mage trying to cast aim on a slinger (and missing), and having the spell cast on himself.

Side note : IMO it'd be a great idea to make flight have a precision 100 as well. Nothing like having a lone unit with precision 20 casting flight and missing ... his size 6 self.

[Morkilus]

Just giving this thread a bump, see the new version.

[quantum_mechani]

Again, no updated readme, so here are some highlights of the new version:

*Banes, wights, reanimation, and bog beasts cheaper.

*Spectres and black servants slightly more expensive

*Summon shade beasts cheaper and more research

*Lesser elementals are now conjuration one

*Wild Growth needs less research

*Vine ogres 2 gems, back to 5 protection

*Seldom used high level spells like doom, quickening, wailing winds, wind of death, siege golem, juggernaut and carrion reanimation made less research

*Golems require higher research (to balance out juggernaut and siege golem moving down in research)

*Improved cross breeding cheaper

*Nerfs on soul contacts, vampire lords, and fever fetishes toned down

*Call horror and lesser horror cheaper, send lesser horror cheaper

*Agony 100 precision and needs only blood one

*Flames from the sky lightly more expensive, and murdering winter slightly more research

*Shimmering fields, flame storm and niefel flames less research; wrathful skies fire storm more research

*7-9 armor light infanty and militia more expensive

*Ulm black lords and lord guardians have standards

*Resource bug fixed

*Shark knight bug fixed

[shovah]

i like me the sounds of those

[NTJedi]

Any adjustment for Baleful Star ?

[shovah]

i was wondering the same thing

[quantum_mechani]

Yes, it is now 5 gems.

[shovah]

good, seems more worthy of its effect (with the unmodded cost at 13 gems iirc)

[Morkilus]

Here is a list of changes between 5.4 and 5.2 that I compiled. Most of these are changes to the base, or tweaks. Enjoy!

[shovah]

can i suggest lowering the robe of invunerabilitys cost a little (by 10-20 gems maybe) because i know it makes who-ever wears it really tough but for 80 gems i dont think anyone makes them. ever.

[Wish]

unless they are hella holding dwarven hammers and maybe on a construction site, and maybe a smith/cyclops of some sort

[shovah]

smith with hammer of the forge lord, in that very hard to find site with 50% const bonus with forge of the ancients up. thats 125% bonus before adding the forge of the anciens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Wish]

yeah but it caps out at some point

[Oversway]

It caps out at 1 gem, I thought?

80 gems is a lot, but 30 prot for 0 enc is nothing to sneeze at. Plus if you are making the robe, you can make a hammer so you should never pay full price. Tough call if its worth it.

[archaeolept]

i'm not sure i've even seen one made... but 40 gems might be too cheap

/shrug