Ermor Themes

[regret]

Hi all,

New to game but got a question to ask

i am trying Ermor themes at the moment
Can someone explain to me what the difference is between the different reanimates and call spirits options?
like which uses population or corpses or no requirement?
and roughly what i will get using the different options?
i roughly know that dominion effects and unholy rating of the summoner is how much you get
and that longdead doesn't require anything
and of course the 2 tips they show saying reanimate souless needs corpses and ghouls need pop.

thanks in advance

[shovah]

soul gate:
dispossesed spirits require corpses
shades require nothing
apparitions require 100 people per summon

ashen:
ghouls need 10 people
not sure what others need as i usually play soul gate

[regret]

Thanks!

I was trying soul gate
how do you normally set your scales?
and once you run out of pop you just stick to summoning shades? or are shades generally good enough?

I think i may have made my game too violent since i set death 3 and have starting domain at 8 plus i was happily pillaging. my provinces emptied out really fast. am i missing out if i do not summon dispossesed and apparitions?

also as long as i have a temple in the province, does it matter make a difference than summoning from capitol? cos it seems to make a diff for ashen empire.

thanks again

[quantum_mechani]

regret said:
Thanks!

I was trying soul gate
how do you normally set your scales?
and once you run out of pop you just stick to summoning shades? or are shades generally good enough?

I think i may have made my game too violent since i set death 3 and have starting domain at 8 plus i was happily pillaging. my provinces emptied out really fast. am i missing out if i do not summon dispossesed and apparitions?

also as long as i have a temple in the province, does it matter make a difference than summoning from capitol? cos it seems to make a diff for ashen empire.

thanks again

Normal scales are full turmoil, sloth, cold, death, luck either way, full magic. Don't worry about emptying population, that is what dead Ermor is all about. Just playing SG Ermor will kill population much, much faster than full growth scale could cure, even if you could take that. As far as ordering commanders to reanimate, it does not matter where they are. For auto summons that don't need commanders, it is based on the dominion level, plus you will receive better spawns on fort provinces.

I would advise not paying as much attention to reanimation and instead spend gems on mages.

[Turin]

How to easily win with soul gate:

Pretender design:
Choose a lich queen with dominion 10 and several rainbow paths: you will want fire 4(for alchemy), earth 3+(to find money sites) and death 6(for well of misery) ,spend the rest as you see fit, but don´t put anything in blood.
Scales are: turmoil 3, sloth3,cold 3, death 3, luck 3, magic 2 or 3. Of course you choose the cheaper and superior castle.

How to play:
prophetize the wraith centurion, research with your lich queen until you have enough gems for a dusk elder. After the elder summon 3-4 wraith centurions for expansion, then mages for research.

How to expand:
Send out the wraith centurions towards provinces under your domain, the prophetized one should be able to take them alone, the other wraith centurions should work in pairs.

Script them to hold 5 times and then attack, positioning them at the far end of the battle field. Don´t use your freespawns for expansion, you will need them to patrol.
After the lich queen has summoned the dusk elder send her out to find magic sites.

As soon as a province is conquered, build a temple there(summon a priest if you get unlucky and don´t get one early as a freespawn), unless it´s a border province. Don´t bother building forts in the beginning, your freespawns will take care of early game raiding forces(just don´t forget to buy 1 PD everywhere) .
Fortresses seem to diminish the quality of your troops. In provinces with temples you get apparitions, ghosts and wailing ladies(all awesome) in provinces with forts you only get your mostly useless spectral legionaires.

All your money should go into temples. Soul gate ermor is all about dominion. To get money pillage provinces with special income sites(arenas etc) to 0 population as soon as possible, so you can get the full 200% taxes with no unrest.
Alchemize all the fire gems you can get. Use raiding parties consisting of a spectator and freespawns.

Research conjuration to lvl 8 as soon as possible, this will give you ashen angels and the well of misery, which are probably the most important spells for you. Continue to lvl 9 for ghost riders, or research conjuration 4 first to equip your centurions. Other important spells in the conjuration path are summon spectre, king of banefires and harvester of sorrows.

[Molog]

Soulless need corpses for reanimating.

Ashen empire gets better undead at castles.

Soul gate gets free priests at temples sometimes.

There should be a table in your manual displaying how much each undead and what kind each kind of reanimating gives you.

If you make make an arch bischop your prophet with ashen empire, he'll reach level 5 unholy and can cast power of the sepulchre and reanimate cencors.

[Chazar]

What are the weaknesses of Soul Gate? Does one defend against Soul Gate like one would defend against Ashen Empire (drive-by priesting, etc.)?

[shovah]

well soul gates units are etheral but i think there are fewer of them than ashen (dont play ashen much but still think they get more) and their units generally dont do too much damage but have paralyzing abilities (pretty sure). not sure if this is different to ashen but in provinces with temples they often get free priests so wipe out temples asap

(try some priests with flying carpets and either a fire 9 blessing on sacred troops or some toher form of magic attacks)

if your in an mp game try and team up with someone to take them down and units that dont eat are good on then since their lands have low supplie and if you ignore them they will get way too strong (beware the tartarian factorys of doom) and also watch out for all their dusk eldars as they can really put a hurting down with the right spells (or with a few boosters can spam bane lords)

[Vicious Love]

Chazar said:
What are the weaknesses of Soul Gate? Does one defend against Soul Gate like one would defend against Ashen Empire (drive-by priesting, etc.)?



Drive by priesting is a tad less effective, what with their comparatively high MR. Artillery spells, excepting the few that don't count as magic weapons, are even more effective, as few units have more than zero protection. Heavy armor is only effective against relatively few of Soul Gate's units, whereas high MR will protect against nearly all. A few high-MR, high-HP thugs with Charcoal Shields(or fire shielded Black Sorcerers) should be tremendously effective, but you are likely to lose one or two of them, once one fails his paralyze MR roll.

Soul Gate's dominion is technically less dangerous than AE's, but the distinction becomes meaningless within a few rounds. Ph34r it, as you would AE.

Also, should a wraith centurion wind up in your dominion, kill with an assassination spell before he can get back to the immortality zone. Don't assume this'll immobilize his army, though; Soul Gate still gets free commanders. As with AE, worthwhile commanders like centurions and Dusk Elders are still prime targets, if difficult ones.

Update: Also, be Caelum. Even your troops are useful against these guys. Without the ethereal edge, SG's troops are ultra-light infantry. Most of their units have less than 10 HP. Dispossessed spirits only have 1.

Yet another update: Keep in mind that most of Soul Gate's units aren't mindless. Morale aside, this means they'll have a lot less trouble capturing and defending forts. On the other hand, where AE Ermor gets wicked awesome knights of the Unholy Sepulchre(and the occasional censor), Soul Gate gets only marginally better troops. Therefore, while I'd advise you demolish your own fort rather than let AE Ermor take it, less drastic measures might be in order with SG. Then again, forts protect temples from raids, and temples are an even more important target than before, providing both dominion and some truly worthwhile autosummons.

[Jurri]

Soul Gate's critters are not lifeless, either, so life drain works nicely. (Which is why Soul Gate is in my opinion much worse than Ashen Empire. Alongside of course SG having less hp in the horde and less damage potential.) In fact, they aren't mindless either, so fear and awe should work against them, too.

Also, in theory a dude with high attack and a magic weapon should repel the dipossessed spirits to death when they swarm him, right? Could be considered, in case you don't happen to have fireshield available.

[Alneyan]

Note that mindless units have no problem sieging a fort: they work just as well as anyone else here. Mindless units do work poorly when defending forts.

[Jurri]

Well, it really doesn't matter if your guys are mindless or not if you have eight times more of them than your mindful comparison-group! Soul Gate guys have so low a strength anyway (on average, since most of the chaff is dispossesseds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) that Ashen seems better even in fort defense. And of course they crack forts like heads, being both numerous and strong.

[Turin]

Well I guess it´s a matter of taste which theme you like more. Either you go for masses of troops, in which case AE ermor is your favourite, or you go for awesome leaders, then you are better off with soul gate.

Both themes seem to be incredibly strong (if you know how to make money with them) and I doubt anyone could win a 1vs1 vs my SG ermor.

[thejeff]

Turin, I'm curious. How do you take provinces with just the centurions? They seem to die pretty easily against any real opposition. What does the holdx5 accomplish?
I haven't tried this, but I've seen centurions get killed often enough when they go in with troops so I'm surprised they can win alone.
Since they're immortal, you get them back, but if they don't kill enough to weaken the province it seems pointless.


Or possibly the real question: What do you use for independent strength? I usually play 7-9.
I could see this strategy working on easier settings.

[Jurri]

Oh, the centurions certainly can take indep provinces alone. The holding is for both letting the enemy troops spread a little (you know, heavy infantry is a bit slower than light, and cavalry is faster than anything) and making it harder for the opposing archers to hit. The point would be that the centurion/s routs the enemies one squad at a time, without facing them all at a time. (Turin might have another reason for it, though, but that's why I do it.)

Works on most independent settings, at least to an extent, although as the strength of the indeps goes up the chances of a centurion dying go up as well. You can add to the force as many centurions as needed, though, since they don't rout even if some die; you could also equip some of them: only some, so that if that particular centurion dies the others can pick up the stuff.

Agreed that anyone would have a hard time beating any undead theme played by an above-average skilled player in a 1v1. I still would rather face SG than AE Ermor or CW Pangaea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Jurri said:

Agreed that anyone would have a hard time beating any undead theme played by an above-average skilled player in a 1v1. I still would rather face SG than AE Ermor or CW Pangaea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I don't know, I never considered it much of a problem. If you know you're facing undead, and no other nations, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

[Turin]

thejeff said:
Turin, I'm curious. How do you take provinces with just the centurions? They seem to die pretty easily against any real opposition. What does the holdx5 accomplish?




Pretty much the reasons Jurri stated. Additional points are that your centurion will be able to attack the fleeing units for a longer time, thus getting more xp. And enemy mages/priests have only a very poor chance of hitting him.

And once they get into the HoF they can become really nasty: heroic toughness, battle bellow, quickness or protection are all amazingly useful on them.

Indie strength isn´t that important, the only provinces that you should really stay away from are lizard provinces. Provinces with crossbowmen or heavy cav can be problematic too, they are usually for the prophet centurion or centurions with good heroic abilities.

[ioticus]

I hope Dominions 3 tones down the power of undead themes because at present I think they are overpowered.

[regret]

thanks for all the tips on Soul Gate, my game has improved tremendously http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

but now i want to try Ashen Empire, any tips on that? or play roughly the same way.

by the way, the propheted centurion/consul truely rocks. he just goes thru indies like water http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jurri]

Turin said:
Both themes seem to be incredibly strong (if you know how to make money with them) and I doubt anyone could win a 1vs1 vs my SG ermor.



quantum_mechani said:
I don't know, I never considered it much of a problem. If you know you're facing undead, and no other nations, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

I smell a match brewing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif How about you guys face off, save each turn and report to the community your findings; I think there's a distinct lack of a detailed, good guide on how to handle undead. Now, I'm sure an archived game like that would be a concrete tutorial! (Even though my money's on Turin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, even then you'd see what's the worst that can happen, which is perhaps even more valuable than a step-by-step instruction... So either way it's bound to be interesting!)

[NTJedi]

ioticus said:
I hope Dominions 3 tones down the power of undead themes because at present I think they are overpowered.



I partly disagree... every nation should have one theme which is extremely powerful for the purpose of new players not getting killed on turn_10 during multiplayer games. Heck if I play 10 games during a month and my brother only plays one game I'm going to want him to have a more powerful theme available so I don't slaughter him every game.
Also hopefully computer opponents will be more challenging and be supplied with better AI in DOM_3. It's sad watching them not cast the more effective spells like the elemental royalties, flames from the sky, ghost riders, etc. Also it's sad watching them lose battles because they starved their armies.

[Molog]

Carrion woods is not that strong.

Soul gate also gets lots of stealthy units, so mass stealth attacks are possible.

[shovah]

and having nations overpowered is good to give newbies advantages but what about when experienced players start using them??

[Endoperez]

I agree with shovah. As Gandalf Parker says, the nations aren't balanced against other nations. They are balanced to be weaker and stronger against spesific nations/tactics. Marignon is made to be *the* anti-undead nation. It should be, but also weaker against something else (high-mr non-undead summons?). Similarly, Ulm should be stronger against some nations, weak against others (like Ermor themes). Playing Man against Soul Gate should always be hard, because Soul Gate's powers work well against Man (human units -> no exceptional magic resistance, fear works), although Man still has some options (lots of monks, vinemen/ogres to slow down the hordes of undead, Maggots).

This balance isn't perfect, yet, and might never be, but the situation was improved from Dom:PPP. Ermor themes now vost some design points, Ulm has some new units (although Sappers and Siege Engineers aren't the best possible units), Marignon wasn't changed. I trust that we will see something similar in DomIII.

[quantum_mechani]

Jurri said:

Turin said:
Both themes seem to be incredibly strong (if you know how to make money with them) and I doubt anyone could win a 1vs1 vs my SG ermor.



quantum_mechani said:
I don't know, I never considered it much of a problem. If you know you're facing undead, and no other nations, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

I smell a match brewing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif How about you guys face off, save each turn and report to the community your findings; I think there's a distinct lack of a detailed, good guide on how to handle undead. Now, I'm sure an archived game like that would be a concrete tutorial! (Even though my money's on Turin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, even then you'd see what's the worst that can happen, which is perhaps even more valuable than a step-by-step instruction... So either way it's bound to be interesting!)

Heh, I'm always open for a 1vs.1 game with anyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Chazar]

NTJedi said:I partly disagree... every nation should have one theme which is extremely powerful for the purpose of new players not getting killed on turn_10 during multiplayer games.

That is not the purpose of themes! Themes are there for flavour, not balance. However, I do not understand why dominions does not simply allow different pretender design points for different players. Why are you not allowed to give a newbie just 80 extra design points? Of course, you can always leave design points unspent and there are the mods, but an option for accepting an 'easy' pretender design cannot be too difficult to implement...

[Mark the Merciful]

I'm not one of those who would argue that Ermor is unbeatably strong, but - purely in the interests of science - I'll challenge you quantum_mechani.

I'll take one of the dead Ermor themes, you pick any other nation/theme you like, and we'll see what happens.

Whadaya say?

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

I am one of those who thinks that emor(AE) is one or the strongest nation around: The death magic is SO ULTRA strong in nearly every stadium: For example: exelent early, middle and late summons

desintegrate(i have desinterated 2 Water queens in the MP-Game Padadise lost)

Dark Knowledege needs only D1 to cast....

Wraith sword etc.

I am quite sure that you are able to win over any strategy that is not designed ecpecially against emor.

Of course there are quite many tactics against emor, but most are quite useless(never got probs with priest, because i use arch bischops)

Cunclusio finalio: I love emor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif

[shovah]

i love ermor too and just try it in a rich game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif 15 death gems a turn straight away+well of misery later on (tartarian/ghost rider spam anyone?)

[Vicious Love]

Jurri said:
Also, in theory a dude with high attack and a magic weapon should repel the dipossessed spirits to death when they swarm him, right? Could be considered, in case you don't happen to have fireshield available.



Not just in theory. They drop off like flies. I considered mentioning this, but figured it was covered by that whole "thugs vs ethereal" imperative, unless one favors 0-length weapons. Didn't think the whole morale weakness was worth pointing out, either, simply because SG has so many other, more easily exploited susceptibilities.


Alneyan said:
Note that mindless units have no problem sieging a fort: they work just as well as anyone else here. Mindless units do work poorly when defending forts.




Jurri said:
Ashen seems better even in fort defense. And of course they crack forts like heads, being both numerous and strong.



My mistake and point taken, respectively.

[Vicious Love]

GriffinOfBuerrig said:
I am one of those who thinks that emor(AE) is one or the strongest nation around: The death magic is SO ULTRA strong in nearly every stadium: For example: exelent early, middle and late summons



Death magic is unquestionably one of the more powerful paths in the game, even if one is aware of all the countermeasures. But AE Ermor isn't the only nation with death magic. Broken Empire has many of the advantages of Ashen Empire, none of the considerable disadvantages, and gets easy access to the ultraprecious death/astral combo. 110 gold for a half-sacred Nether Darts casters is simply a good deal, even in the late game.

At any rate, seeing as no nation relies solely on one magic path and no nation relies solely on magic, I'm really not entirely certain the magic paths should be balanced.

[spirokeat]

Death magic is very good, but I suspect the power of Ermor doesn't come from straight out of the box death. Its the themes and the units that they provide that are unique to them.

Dark Knowledge costs 3 gems rather than the 2 that the other divines cost. In my particular instance it means that as Mictlan when Mictipoctli turns up, I can throw out a revenant with him or do it with my pretender if he doesn't and have a chance at getting a death economy going.

You should probably do three challenges.

Ermor out of the box vs anyone.
Ermor AE vs anyone
Ermor SG vs Anyone.

With some good players and knowing your facing Ermor specifically I don't think it would be the walk over that people are expecting. There are plenty of undead bashing spells and items out there.

SPiro.

[quantum_mechani]

Mark the Merciful said:
I'm not one of those who would argue that Ermor is unbeatably strong, but - purely in the interests of science - I'll challenge you quantum_mechani.

I'll take one of the dead Ermor themes, you pick any other nation/theme you like, and we'll see what happens.

Whadaya say?

Sounds fair, base game or modded?

[NTJedi]

Chazar said:
That is not the purpose of themes! Themes are there for flavour, not balance.



Of course themes are for flavour... but the game can provide a wider range of gaming experiences if themes have different strengths. Your idea about the host providing extra points for beginners could also work as an alternative.


Chazar said:
However, I do not understand why dominions does not simply allow different pretender design points for different players. Why are you not allowed to give a newbie just 80 extra design points?


That's an excellent idea... hopefully dominions_3 will have something such as this introduced.

[Scott Hebert]

Broken Empire Ermor is actually one of my favorite Nation/Theme combinations. Their Grand Thaumaturgs can give them a very good chaff screen (and a Grand Thaumaturg prophet gets Longdead Horsemen). Their national units are basically Pythium's (or should I say the reverse?), which are among the best national units in the game. And, as people have mentioned, their Thaumaturgs are excellent Nether engines later.

Another note is that Death and Astral, IIRC, are the two paths that have a 1-path search spell. This allows your Thaumaturgs to search for the path sites, freeing your Grand Thaumaturgs for doing other things (like Reanimating Longdead or casting other spells).

As a final note, BE Ermor is the only nation/theme that has recruitable Unholy Priests (in any form) that does not suffer from a death scale or other drawbacks (Desert Tombs).

[Mark the Merciful]

Ermor's pretty scary, but all death all the time makes it very much a one-trick pony. If you don't work very hard to diversify in the mid-game, then you're asking to get smacked by someone who know's how to kill the undead in large numbers.

[shovah]

like a few golem thugs with herald lances (only use golems as example for their self buffing)

[spirokeat]

Thats kinda what I thought too. But perhaps its not just the inherent ability to kill the undead that make Ermor stronger as a nation generally. The ability to just spawn and zerg large armies is probably a factor too.

In SP when I come accross them its usually a case of me being able to outlive their attrition, provided I got enough time to set up an undead bashing response. Last time it was six holy Pyre casters and about twenty five spine devils.

Spiro

[Huzurdaddi]

quantum_mechani said:

Mark the Merciful said:
I'm not one of those who would argue that Ermor is unbeatably strong, but - purely in the interests of science - I'll challenge you quantum_mechani.

I'll take one of the dead Ermor themes, you pick any other nation/theme you like, and we'll see what happens.

Whadaya say?

Sounds fair, base game or modded?



It's a trick. Get an axe.

You are dammed if you said base and damned if you do not. But base you may be playing calelum and that is a recipie for disaster.

[Mark the Merciful]

quantum_mechani said:

I'll take one of the dead Ermor themes, you pick any other nation/theme you like, and we'll see what happens.

Whadaya say?

Sounds fair, base game or modded?



Base is what I know, so I'd rather stick to that. What maps do people normally use for 1 vs 1 games?


It's a trick. Get an axe.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But the proposition we're testing is a strong one. We're assured that Ermor can beat any nation one-on-one, including a FH-spamming wrathful-skies-casting Caelum. Bring it on!

[quantum_mechani]

Mark the Merciful said:
Base is what I know, so I'd rather stick to that. What maps do people normally use for 1 vs 1 games?


The usual maps are Urgaia, Clash of Titans, or The Nile.

[Turin]

Jurri said:

Turin said:
Both themes seem to be incredibly strong (if you know how to make money with them) and I doubt anyone could win a 1vs1 vs my SG ermor.



quantum_mechani said:
I don't know, I never considered it much of a problem. If you know you're facing undead, and no other nations, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

I smell a match brewing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif How about you guys face off, save each turn and report to the community your findings; I think there's a distinct lack of a detailed, good guide on how to handle undead. Now, I'm sure an archived game like that would be a concrete tutorial! (Even though my money's on Turin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, even then you'd see what's the worst that can happen, which is perhaps even more valuable than a step-by-step instruction... So either way it's bound to be interesting!)



We did two matches, one on the nile with quantum as tien´chi , one on urgaia as c´tis desert tombs. The first game was pretty anticlimatic, I got a pretty good start and my prophet got heroic toughness. On turn 15 qm tried to invade, but my wraith centurions slaughtered his army and the game was over at that point.
My pretender was a f4a3s3e3d6n1 dom 10 lich queen. qm chose a dom10 lich. I saved my turns, but it was a pretty boring game.

The second took place on urgaia and was far more interesting.
I got a really crappy start, got a useless ability on my prophet (battle prowess) and had to wait until turn 20 to find my second death gem generating site, generating only 11 death gems/turn until that point. I never found firegems either, so I had money problems too.
So I just put temples everywhere I went, conquered provinces with my centurions and created 4 raiding squads with spectators and freespawns.
qm´s offensive consisted of an army with 9 sauromancers and tomb wyrms, they managed to knock over a few temples and kill quite a lot of freespawns.
But eventually he split them and a wraith centurion was able to kill off half the sauromancers. My raiding squads were running rampant in his provinces and I managed to capture one of his three forts. At that point we declared the game over.

[quantum_mechani]

Turin said:

Jurri said:

Turin said:
Both themes seem to be incredibly strong (if you know how to make money with them) and I doubt anyone could win a 1vs1 vs my SG ermor.



quantum_mechani said:
I don't know, I never considered it much of a problem. If you know you're facing undead, and no other nations, you can adjust your strategy accordingly.

I smell a match brewing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif How about you guys face off, save each turn and report to the community your findings; I think there's a distinct lack of a detailed, good guide on how to handle undead. Now, I'm sure an archived game like that would be a concrete tutorial! (Even though my money's on Turin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, even then you'd see what's the worst that can happen, which is perhaps even more valuable than a step-by-step instruction... So either way it's bound to be interesting!)



We did two matches, one on the nile with quantum as tien´chi , one on urgaia as c´tis desert tombs. The first game was pretty anticlimatic, I got a pretty good start and my prophet got heroic toughness. On turn 15 qm tried to invade, but my wraith centurions slaughtered his army and the game was over at that point.
My pretender was a f4a3s3e3d6n1 dom 10 lich queen. qm chose a dom10 lich. I saved my turns, but it was a pretty boring game.

The second took place on urgaia and was far more interesting.
I got a really crappy start, got a useless ability on my prophet (battle prowess) and had to wait until turn 20 to find my second death gem generating site, generating only 11 death gems/turn until that point. I never found firegems either, so I had money problems too.
So I just put temples everywhere I went, conquered provinces with my centurions and created 4 raiding squads with spectators and freespawns.
qm´s offensive consisted of an army with 9 sauromancers and tomb wyrms, they managed to knock over a few temples and kill quite a lot of freespawns.
But eventually he split them and a wraith centurion was able to kill off half the sauromancers. My raiding squads were running rampant in his provinces and I managed to capture one of his three forts. At that point we declared the game over.


Yeah, he proved his point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

SG played well is almost certainly the most deadly 1vs.1 nation, with the possible exception of base game Caelum. The second game he got quite unlucky, while I played one of the best counters nations, which I don't think could have been played much better.

The key to it's deadliness is it's immortal thugs from the start, and freespawning stealth squads. It is quite posible to deafeat the immortality with raiding and dominion push, but you can't do that while being constantly harassed by powerful stealth raiders. And of course SG gets money from raiding (more temples) while you get at best a few more gems, and cannot hold the provinces you take because free spawns simply retake them as your army moves off.

[Jurri]

Hey, neat! Do you have the turns from the second game saved up? They would serve as a great tutorial for playing SG, and opposing it. (And of course, I'd like to see how to play in a way that can't be surpassed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

You should try unmodded Caelum versus SG, too! They got magic weapons and stuff, so maybe they would stand a chance.

[quantum_mechani]

Jurri said:
Hey, neat! Do you have the turns from the second game saved up? They would serve as a great tutorial for playing SG, and opposing it. (And of course, I'd like to see how to play in a way that can't be surpassed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

You should try unmodded Caelum versus SG, too! They got magic weapons and stuff, so maybe they would stand a chance.

I don't know about Turin, all I have is a few turns from the first game.

[shovah]

only problem with caelum is alot of arrows would miss from etheralness and the good assault troops cost **** loads of resources (FH spam anyone, would love to see that vrs raise skele spams)

[spirokeat]

Whats the stats on those centurions ? (im at work so cant check).

That is an interesting outcome.

Quantum, What tactics did you employ knowing what you were facing ?

As Tien Chi and Ctis ?

Spiro

[Turin]

Jurri said:
Hey, neat! Do you have the turns from the second game saved up? They would serve as a great tutorial for playing SG, and opposing it. (And of course, I'd like to see how to play in a way that can't be surpassed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

You should try unmodded Caelum versus SG, too! They got magic weapons and stuff, so maybe they would stand a chance.



Sorry I didn´t save the turns from the second game, I only have the last one saved. As for the strategy, it was quite easy: build lots of temples, make raiding squads and always send your wraith centurions into provinces with friendly dominion.

unmodded caelum could very well stand a chance. But I see them getting trouble with income and raiding with false horrors shouldn´t be that effective due to high morale and magic weapons. Raiding with troops should be quite hard, even with magic weapons they will have a hard time killing the soulless and then the ghosts.

But the mages should perform well, if you can get airqueens out soon enough that might be enough.

[quantum_mechani]

spirokeat said:
Whats the stats on those centurions ? (im at work so cant check).

That is an interesting outcome.

Quantum, What tactics did you employ knowing what you were facing ?

As Tien Chi and Ctis ?


As T'ien Ch'i, the strategy was masters of the the dead casting dust to dust to kill centurions, and quickened priests to clear the chaff.

For C'tis, similar dust to dust casting early with sauromancers, plus a few early forts for hierodules. Then I went straight for bones, which worked quite well except for the fact there was no way my sauromancers could take a large enough force to destroy temples to keep the dominion out, and at the same time stop the intensive stealth raiding.

[Jurri]

Interesting strategies, QM! I'm not sure they are the best for the purpose, however.

I would think perhaps fire-blessed Vans or Sidhe or anything, really, could work, since they should be able to hurt the spirits and in the case of these two and some others also have a lot of survivability against centurions. Also, vans can sac slaves to spread dominion, right? That could be useful, too, if the game prolonged. Lightning bolts should work fine against centurions, as long as they aren't especially protected.

Shouldn't sauromancers be more effective skeleton spammers than spectators? Thusly, one would think fighting fire with fire would work. (Not that I know if spectators were used for that purpose http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) Also, base C'tis has these serpent dancers that have magic weapons, and a high def and an above average MR; they should be formidable against the spirits. Especially with some bless and a skeleton spam to soak the hits.

Fire/Astral flagellants would conceivably work, as they should have enough MR to resist many attacks, as well as well enough offensive capacity to beat centurions.

Perhaps the best bet would be fire (+a bit of earth, maybe) blessed white centaurs; you get the supply and the blessing from the dryads, as well as cheap banishment. Also, temples are easy to make with Pan.

Or maybe I'm missing something? Certainly these would have a hard time, too, but I wouldn't necessarily focus solely on mages and priests under circumstances like this.

[shovah]

i like n9 white centaurs (+6 berserk and 3 regen i think)and miamasa could probably out skeleton spam him and of course false horror spam caelum would be fun

[Endoperez]

Fire 9 Vanir would deal out magical damage, and I think both their defense and magic resistance are above normal. Also, those Dwarves have Earth, and Blade Wind should be a killer against low-prot units, even if they are ethereal (it did deal magical damage, didn't it? It at least used to).

[quantum_mechani]

Jurri said:
Interesting strategies, QM! I'm not sure they are the best for the purpose, however.

I would think perhaps fire-blessed Vans or Sidhe or anything, really, could work, since they should be able to hurt the spirits and in the case of these two and some others also have a lot of survivability against centurions. Also, vans can sac slaves to spread dominion, right? That could be useful, too, if the game prolonged. Lightning bolts should work fine against centurions, as long as they aren't especially protected.

Shouldn't sauromancers be more effective skeleton spammers than spectators? Thusly, one would think fighting fire with fire would work. (Not that I know if spectators were used for that purpose http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) Also, base C'tis has these serpent dancers that have magic weapons, and a high def and an above average MR; they should be formidable against the spirits. Especially with some bless and a skeleton spam to soak the hits.

Fire/Astral flagellants would conceivably work, as they should have enough MR to resist many attacks, as well as well enough offensive capacity to beat centurions.

Perhaps the best bet would be fire (+a bit of earth, maybe) blessed white centaurs; you get the supply and the blessing from the dryads, as well as cheap banishment. Also, temples are easy to make with Pan.

Or maybe I'm missing something? Certainly these would have a hard time, too, but I wouldn't necessarily focus solely on mages and priests under circumstances like this.

The difficulty with focusing on troops is supply. Natons like Pan can compensate with nature mages, but using them in the field will cripple your research, the one real advantage over the SG strategy. That was the other reason I played C'tis (DT), I got my own troops that would not starve.

And there is still the issue that your units (particularly with priests to bless them) cannot be everywhere at once. Sauromancers casting wither bones is about as cost effective as it gets to fighting undead raiding squads, band they were still spread to thin.

And yes, in many cases the sauros spam better, however SG doesn't really need to spam. Simply use packs of centurions, if they do get defeated by a large pack of spammers, simply regroup them and and try with a large force. Without relief the sauros will get overcome sooner or later, and getting relief going in the time frame you need would be quite difficult.

If I were to try again, I would probably do a carrion woods bless involving fire. Use black centaurs early, gradually switch to vine beasts. Not that great of chance of working, but maybe interesting.

In any case, I can't think of any other nation that requires as specific of strategies to have even a hope of defeating them 1vs.1.

[Turin]

Jurri said:

I would think perhaps fire-blessed Vans or Sidhe or anything, really, could work, since they should be able to hurt the spirits and in the case of these two and some others also have a lot of survivability against centurions. Also, vans can sac slaves to spread dominion, right? That could be useful, too, if the game prolonged. Lightning bolts should work fine against centurions, as long as they aren't especially protected.




The problem with those strategies (apart from the supply issue) is that your troops will likely get diseased in the first battle due to apparitions, so Pangeae seems to be the most effective choice for a bless troop strategy. However the centaurs are very expensive, so you need good scales, a lvl 9 bless and very high dominion.
So you will be likely to create only one army, whereas the ermor player will run rampant through your provinces. If you split your main army, they will most likely get overwhelmed by the paralizing spirits and lifedraining ghosts.

And the ermor player will equip his centurion prophet with a fire resist ring, which will provide another nasty problem.

[Jurri]

The disease cloud won't affect the units if they have their mirror images intact, right? At least other AoE effects won't, to my knowledge.

Your points may be correct... It's an interesting problem, really; I do share the view that it's a difficult proposition no matter the strategy, especially against such a skillfull foe as Turin. But, I do think that feature is shared by AE Ermor and CW Pan too.

[spirokeat]

well, thos centurions are certainly nice looking. I don't know anything about MP strats at all. It would seem to hinge on limiting the Ermor dominion though. Certainly when I use vampires with Mictlan my domain is paramount to effectively using them.

How about Marignon, Inquisitors, good fire magic ? The right blessing could cause some problems.

This is a really interesting thread btw.

Spiro.

[Alneyan]

Jurri: The Machakan kamikazes are the key to the problem. Remember those Sorcerers that just wouldn't die? That should work fine against the undead, too.

That aside, do you think Phoenix Pyre would help against the undeads? Witch Doctors can cast it, and those can be everywhere, and the spell deals some damage over a widespread area. Of course, fatigue will kill the mages sooner or later (Summon Earthpower may help here), but it might just work out. Of course, getting to that level of research is a problem... but then anything involving the undead is a problem.

Spirokeat: Dominion is mighty hard to undo, and the undead can easily afford maximum Dominion. If you can pull it out, everything will be easier though. Friendly Dominion isn't still enough for Immortals though: assassination spells will remove all their items and send them back home regardless, and commanders that keep on dying aren't that useful. I'm addicted to Mind Hunt now.

[quantum_mechani]

Jurri said:
The disease cloud won't affect the units if they have their mirror images intact, right? At least other AoE effects won't, to my knowledge.

Your points may be correct... It's an interesting problem, really; I do share the view that it's a difficult proposition no matter the strategy, especially against such a skillfull foe as Turin. But, I do think that feature is shared by AE Ermor and CW Pan too.

I have dueled with the other two dead themes, played by at least average players, and there is not the same degree of difficulty. Both lack stealth freespawns, and both lack immortal summons from turn one.

The have their strengths, AE troop horde is fearsome for the unprepared, CW can make mincemeat of thugs and SCs. But both have real trouble going up against enough priests.

[spirokeat]

Thats why I was thinking of a nation like Mari who has special stealthy priests to undo dominion. Especially if you can give them a stone idol or something. Though i'm not sure how the maths on that would stack up.

But I suppose keeping them slapped and itemless would go a long way too.

SPiro.

[Alneyan]

Inquisitors aren't stealthy, unless I am grossly mistaken. Stealth priests still have to "uncloak" to preach however, so you will need to spend one turn in the province, and pray the Nine that the hordes aren't going to attack you (that sounds unlikely, if they have seen your lovely Inquisitors).

I haven't been impressed with Stone Idols myself: they didn't seem to have much of an effect, with several needed to start having a real impact, and the difficulty of keeping that Dominion down: your Dominion has to go in that province and grows high for the province to remain converted. I have been fighting a Black Forest Ulm recently, and despite all my best efforts, I haven't really broken down their Dominion (still an healthy 9/10 in their core provinces), and we have been neighbours (with a lot of temples on both sides) for... what, sixty turns?

The Skeptics should be able to do that, however: 50 gold is a lot better than 20 gems (kind of expensive when fighting a mad opponent), and they will work right as soon as they enter the province. They bring their own problems, of course: one skeptic means one less commander that could be used to do something else. Down with the undead!

[quantum_mechani]

Alneyan said:
Stealth priests still have to "uncloak" to preach however


No, they can preach while remaining hidden.

[Reverend Zombie]

Alneyan said:
Inquisitors aren't stealthy, unless I am grossly mistaken. Stealth priests still have to "uncloak" to preach however, so you will need to spend one turn in the province, and pray the Nine that the hordes aren't going to attack you (that sounds unlikely, if they have seen your lovely Inquisitors).




Inquisitors no, but the monk(?) is. I have used them to stealth preach and never had to uncloak them, however: sneaking in and starting to preach worked just fine.

[Turin]

Jurri said:
The disease cloud won't affect the units if they have their mirror images intact, right? At least other AoE effects won't, to my knowledge.



Well I haven´t checked that, might very well be. But another problem for the sacred f9 troops is that you won´t have many compared to ermor and without an e9 blessing, your troops will simply succumb to fatigue when they try to wade through hundreds of spirits/shadows. Especially when the spectators come out and start skeleton spamming. If you go for f9/e9 you won´t have enough points for a good economy and high dominion.

As for preaching out ermor, the problem is that SGermor spends all his money on temples and has no upkeep to pay for his troops, so the actual income is not that low. Even with no fire sites I had an income of ~200/turn in the second game vs qm. That means you have to have a starting dominion of 10 and build a temple every turn to win the dominion war vs ermor. If you want to build mages this won´t be possible.

Stealth preaching won´t be possible vs ermor, because usually border provinces get patrolled by one freespawn leader with his 75 troops.

[Alneyan]

Of course stealth-preaching is fine. I don't know what I was on when I wrote it wouldn't work, as I make use of that more than once in a while. I deserve a good ol' slapping.

Thank you both for setting the record straigth.

[spirokeat]

My Bad,

Its the friars that are stealthy. The inquisitors are just double priest level against enemy dominion. So you would have to use them to supress incroaching enemy dom.

I've not used Mari so not sure how stealthy units and preach works to be honest.

I'm working on the assumption of course that your priest level dictates the effectiveness of your preach and so all things being equal (temple etc) then you would have an adverse effect on an enemy dominion should you have the higher priest.

Anyone have any idea of how effective blood sacrifice is in comparison to normal preach >?

Spiro

[shovah]

how about arco sceptics with stone idols and winged shoes??

[Jurri]

Hey, Alneyan, those kamikaze sorcerors trump everything! Undead included.

Turin, what turn will you have 100 spirits? What about 200 or 300? Do the fire-blessed Vans or centaurs get a magical repel too, or is it only functional when attacking? I've almost convinced myself that I should duel you, if only to see what sort of tactics you exactly use (you guys conveniently not saving any turn files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

I think every slave sacrificed counts as a single temple-check; that is, depending on your starting dominion you may or may not increase dominion in the province. So, in effect saccing 3 slaves will mean the equivalent of 3 temples' dominion push. If I remember it right.

[spirokeat]

Why winged shoes ?

Im wondering what the effect on the dominion calculation of stone idols in conjunction with two preaches would be.

How is dominion calculated. there would appear to be a few ways to add to it....pretender spread, prophet spread, temple spread, preach spread, direct preach. Troop spread (juggernaught)

Then you have stone idols and that demon lord who makes people lose faith.

Can their be only a single increase via personal spread...so for example a pretender spread would override a prohpet spread or will they stack ?

Spiro

[Turin]

hmm I just did a quick count and on turn 15 I had ~ 300 troops in the first game vs qm.

In the second game I have on turn 26 ~650 troops . Now I guess qm killed certainly more than 400 of mine, so about 1k troops by turn 25.

[shovah]

spirokeat said:
Why winged shoes ?

Im wondering what the effect on the dominion calculation of stone idols in conjunction with two preaches would be.

How is dominion calculated. there would appear to be a few ways to add to it....pretender spread, prophet spread, temple spread, preach spread, direct preach. Troop spread (juggernaught)

Then you have stone idols and that demon lord who makes people lose faith.

Can their be only a single increase via personal spread...so for example a pretender spread would override a prohpet spread or will they stack ?

Spiro



because the shoes let them get where they are needed quickly

[Alneyan]

And the Winged Shoes help avoid destroying *your* Dominion. I wouldn't put Stone Idols on skeptics though: it sounds kind of redudant, as only one of those is the better bargain depending on your situation (the Skeptic is usually a lot cheaper, but it means one less capital-only commander, so if you are swimming in gems...).

Everything related to increasing/reducing Dominion stacks, for both sides, so you'd better bring in heavy forces to destroy a Dominion -10 quickly. I think the Priest level only affects how high you can go, so it wouldn't help here: Inquisitors ought to work a lot better than regular priests, however.

Still, if you are serious about taking down enemy Dominion soon, don't be a miser and deploy a bunch of priests, and assorted things (Pretender welcome).

[spirokeat]

Are we sure about priest level not affecting it ?

Looking at what it says about inquisitors it would indicate that their preist level is considered double for attacking enemy dominion. But if priest level only affects how high you can get your dominion up then it has no effect at all as you would have to be in positive dominion to increase your own up.

Spiro

[Alneyan]

I doubt we are sure about *anything* regarding Dominion: I only expressed my own opinion on the matter, hence the "I think" (and not "It is written, in the Codex of the First Ones").

Good point about the description for those Inquisitors. I'm afraid I'm in the dark about how they work exactly then.

[Jurri]

Somewhere is floating a pdf on dominion spread. Also KO commented on the matter at some point. Probably both can be found in that manual addenda that Liga was doing. You can't get that closer to the codex of the first ones, I think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Then there's the oral tradition... I bet if you made a thorought search you'd find all sorts of interesting stuff on the matter, and possibly even the two sources mentioned above.

Anyway, I think a priest's chance to get an increase on dominion is 10% times priest level. So, a level 4 inquisitor gets 80% in hostile dominion.

[Zen]

You can find some information here (http://www.maladjustite.com/dominion.pdf) that has most of the information on how Dominion works in an easy to read format from Bruce.

Edit: Fixed link.

[spirokeat]

Thanks Zen, thats an interesting read and will alter substantially how I play with Dominion.

Spirokeat

[Scott Hebert]

I don't know much about MP strategies, and I know that the theme I'm about to suggest is perhaps a little sub-optimal, but has anyone thought of Fires of the Faith Marignon? IIRC, each of their provinces has a free Holy-1 Inquisitor preaching every turn, and if you start with a Dominion of 10 (Virtue or Glyph most likely), then it's just possible you might be able to win the dominion war.

If you choose to go the Virtue route, and you think you can keep your dominion up, you might also think about the Wrath global. Purgatory is another option.

[Zen]

Pangaea can beat SG Ermor when played with fighting Ermor:SG in mind. You can't make your dominion as heavy as Ermors, but thats okay. Pans can deal with early and middle game freespawn/spams and Centaur Warriors hypereffective especially 1on1 when you can send a dryad prophet (2+ other dryads) with 20+ warriors (depends on game settings) through indeps to Ermor land. Use tangle vine script on the early game thugs and expand as fast as you can with Pretender cheeze in your land (medusa's pretty good) and cut Ermor expansion.

If you can harrass Ermor long enough and cut their gold/thuggery to either A) Get Lamia's going or B) Blood (use xbreeding to fortify chaff provinces).

A good research strategy is:
Alt 3
Conj 3 (Earthpower, Call of the Wild)
Alt 4 (Swarm)
Alt 5 (Mother Oak)
Conj 6 (Lamias)

You should research about as fast as SG:Ermor even with early Dryads out causing havok. Depending on the mapsize I might not even search for sites, use Mother Oak to fuel the troops to get a critical mass of either blood/lamias.

You should be able to get Lamia's online around turn 16+ depending on how the early game goes.

Edit: Also this is no foolproof strategy. It's just one that works very well against SG. Alot of things can go wrong for you or you opponent can get lucky. The key to 1v1 dominions is being aggressive.

You could also do this with base Marignon. Though the formula is much simpler. Only make xbows (you should have a good 250-300 by turn 15) speedresearch Ench 4 then alt 4 (for luck if you want) go evocation until you get to firestorm (early game you are looking for falling fires). Use mostly Witch Hunters. Assume your opponent is going to become fully fire resistant and use Witch Hunter Communicant slaves as Astral Shield by setting their script to "hold, hold, hold, hold, hold attack"

With a Master with personal luck, resist magic, astral shield, astral weapon, fire resistance, retreat.

It's unlikely that SG Ermor will be able to fit more than 4-5 (if he's lucky) anti-missle and anti-fire. Use flaming arrows to cut through chaff, use your pretender to deal with opponents pretender (something big with regen usually works pretty good for stalling, make sure it has air shield and a ring of fire resistance).;

[shovah]

try a naga with N9 + whatever else you want and it will get 13 lamias per turn, add that to gift of health and boom...

[Graeme Dice]

quantum_mechani said:
Without relief the sauros will get overcome sooner or later, and getting relief going in the time frame you need would be quite difficult.



You should be able to get skull staves and drain life before you could get relief, but that's an expensive investment.

[Graeme Dice]

Alneyan said:
Inquisitors aren't stealthy, unless I am grossly mistaken. Stealth priests still have to "uncloak" to preach however, so you will need to spend one turn in the province, and pray the Nine that the hordes aren't going to attack you (that sounds unlikely, if they have seen your lovely Inquisitors).



Stealthy priests remain stealthy while preaching in enemy territory. Friar's don't really affect high dominion however.

[B0rsuk]

THat's a twisted question I have, but here it goes...

People consider Marignon a weak-ish nation in multiplayer. While I'm not able to check this myself, I have a fun idea how to make it dangerous.

Ally with Ermor.

From what I hear, Ermor is quite dangerous and that's why people tend to gang up on it early. If Ermor is left alone, it becomes much more dangerous, right ? And it's still more dangerous to others than to you, I suppose. Once Ermor gets dangerous, crippling some of your enemies in process, you (theoreticaly) should be able to fight it reasonably. I mean, Marignon is quite nicely equipped to fight undead, right ? And stop Ermor's dominion with inquisitors. It would be like riding a tiger, but maybe - just maybe - easier to pull off than winning conventionally ?

[Vicious Love]

B0rsuk said:
THat's a twisted question I have, but here it goes...

People consider Marignon a weak-ish nation in multiplayer. While I'm not able to check this myself, I have a fun idea how to make it dangerous.

Ally with Ermor.

From what I hear, Ermor is quite dangerous and that's why people tend to gang up on it early. If Ermor is left alone, it becomes much more dangerous, right ? And it's still more dangerous to others than to you, I suppose. Once Ermor gets dangerous, crippling some of your enemies in process, you (theoreticaly) should be able to fight it reasonably. I mean, Marignon is quite nicely equipped to fight undead, right ? And stop Ermor's dominion with inquisitors. It would be like riding a tiger, but maybe - just maybe - easier to pull off than winning conventionally ?



I like the way you think!

[Chazar]

Is it possible to play SG/AE with a pretender that only knows Death Magic?

I would consider it impossible, since how would one defend against e.g. against massed Flaming Arrows without Rain or a Staff of Storm?

[Ironhawk]

Darkness?

[shovah]

or just the fact that by the time flaming arrows could actually be massed you could probably be bringing 1000+ troops to a battle (with AE) not to mention empower, since you get quite alot of gems (and dusk elders get 1 random so 30 gems to reach lvl 2 then most paths have a booster

[Zen]

shovah said:
or just the fact that by the time flaming arrows could actually be massed you could probably be bringing 1000+ troops to a battle (with AE) not to mention empower, since you get quite alot of gems (and dusk elders get 1 random so 30 gems to reach lvl 2 then most paths have a booster



Hah. So you are saying by turn 10 AE will have both 1000+ troops and enough gems to empower dusk elders. Let alone enough research.

[shovah]

no im not, im also not saying that there is a high chance of someone marching in with a ton of flaming archers. especially considering the supply problems that will either force them to be A: too small to threaten you B:take more time to forge supply items or C:too afraid to attack you anyway

[Graeme Dice]

Marignon crossbowman will not survive in melee combat against longdead or soulless, so it doesn't matter that much if they are diseased from starvation.

[Chazar]

I did not find it difficult to march into SoulGate with dozens of starved, cheap disposable 8gp shortbows and a fire mage to wreak havoc against an unexperienced player...but this is not the point!

It was just one example and I was generally wondering whether it can be considered a mistake to play undead Ermor in MP with a Death-only pretender. Death magic is pretty versatile, but is it versatile enough?

---

Darkness is good advice, I forgot about that actually. It probably counters a lot except battlefield-wide destruction like Wrathing Squads. How would I counter against Darkness besides enlisting undead myself?

[Cainehill]

Personally, I wouldn't take death only with undead Ermor. Actually, I can't see a reason why you would do that, unless you're trying to handicap yourself. After all - look at the lich queen (unmodded) : Dominion 10, Death 10, Magic / Luck 3, all other scales at their worst, and the expensive castle, you still have 149 points left, enough for 3 and 2 in other paths; dropping death to D9 gives another 56 points.

A D9 Wyrm means cutting the castle; a human pretender puts even more limits on it, but ... Why? You'd be choosing to handicap yourself.

Even if you thought you could get by with only death magic, I always take at least fire and/or earth with a death theme, since those gems will supplement a horrible gold income.

[shovah]

and therefore allow castles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif i also try to take some nature just incase i need to feed something