Treelords in Conceptual Balance

[quantum_mechani]

As things stand at the moment in the CBC mod, there are a couple of oddities relating to treeords. One, flying carpets and the flying ship can make them mobile, and two, they can in some situations route.

These can be fixed by giving them the immobile flag, however this would prevent them from being able to cast fairy trod, making them a lot less useful.

I really don't see away around either of these problems, so hopefully everyone can determine what they consider the lesser of two evils.

[Horst F. JENS]

Fit well for me to plant a Treelord in a flowerpot and place him on some magic ship or carpet. It's a game after all and if you do the effort of thinking creative and forging all the necessary items why not enjoying the reward ?

[shovah]

im tempted to say yes because although a large tree im sure one could move him by magical means (although i dont like being able to move him by ship and carpet)

[Frostmourne27]

It's my opinion that, yes they should have the imobile flag for a couple of reasons. Thematically, they're TREES. Trees, unless I'm mistaken dont usually move (in regards to them routing). Also it's a bit difficult to plant a very large tree (they are supposed to be big right?) in a flower pot (the root ball would be enourmous). Balance wise, the amount of gems they get in CB, while fun, is huge, and probably should (in my opinion) be toned down a little. In an ideal world it think the best thing would be (so far as i know this is impossible) to make them unable to move with items and unable to route but able to move via magic (probably just teleport or faery trod).

[jeffr]

You could take away their miscellaneous item slots, thereby denying them the flying ship and carpet. Maybe give them a hat slot (or some other slot) instead to balance it out? Maybe add a summon allies of a hama dryad or some other nature creature?

Keeping Faery Trod while disallowing movement via items is key, I think. The routing problem is less severe, in my opinion.

In my current game, Turin is rampaging around with a large Treelord led army on a flying ship, so I definately feel the pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wish]

how about replacing their misc slots with arm slots

after all, i'm sure they have a number of branches that could be used as arms.

[Wish]

double post

[quantum_mechani]

jeffr said:
You could take away their miscellaneous item slots, thereby denying them the flying ship and carpet. Maybe give them a hat slot (or some other slot) instead to balance it out? Maybe add a summon allies of a hama dryad or some other nature creature?

Keeping Faery Trod while disallowing movement via items is key, I think. The routing problem is less severe, in my opinion.

In my current game, Turin is rampaging around with a large Treelord led army on a flying ship, so I definately feel the pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ah, interesting idea, thanks for providing a third option. Unfortunately summon allies cannot be modded (or you would be seeing a lot more commanders with it in CBC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but if we went with this option I'm sure stats/gem income could be tweaked to make up for the slots.

[shovah]

summon allies with the fairey queens sprites would seem appropriate to me (i can see it now, all the little sprites flying round the treelord) but the treelord really should be immobile

[Cainehill]

Immobile or yes, taking away their misc slots to keep them from using the flying carpets / ships. And I agree with WFBS, an arm slot would be a reasonable substitute.

[Oversway]

Keep faery trod! I like jeffrs removing the misc slots idea.

[Vicious Love]

Lessee, then. Pro mobility:
* Faerie Trod is sorta thematic and pretty fun to have these guys cast.

* Trees on an airship are deeply cool. Snakes on a Plane, y'all.

Pro immobility:
* Easy enough to think up a rationale. They draw strength from the earth, don't they? Not only would uprooting them and stickin' em on an airship cause them to wither and die, it would also take them a geological era or two for them to adjust to a new province's soil. Furthermore, a forest/tree going through a Faerie Trod is a bit like a highway driving upstate.

* Travel via non-unique flying carpets is both unthematic and dizzyingly overpowered.

* Routing trees are lame and stooopid.

* Balanced treelords really are powerful enough already. And they could always be given a slight boost in other areas, anyway.

* Immobility complicates gameplay in all sortsa potentially fun ways.


Remarks with little weight one way or another:
* Taking away misc slots would make treelords incapable of reading the Tome of Gaia. This is neither a balance issue nor a thematic issue either way, really.



I voted for immobility.

[Cainehill]

Vicious Love said:
Remarks with little weight one way or another:
* Taking away misc slots would make treelords incapable of reading the Tome of Gaia. This is neither a balance issue nor a thematic issue either way, really.




But on the other paw, giving them an arm slot lets them use the Thistle Mace; two arms would let them wield the Treelord's Staff, which is either thematic, or disturbing - a Treelord holding a chunk of a dying treelord. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[archaeolept]

treelords are too good as is in the balance mod - knocking off their misc slots is fine; if you want to give them one arm slot that would be ok too.

[Endoperez]

One arm slot would do, but 2 would allow Treelord's Staff and I think that's just inappopriate. And then Treelords would have very minimal slots. I think making them immoibile is better than removing all the misc slots.

[Vicious Love]

Cainehill said:
But on the other paw, giving them an arm slot lets them use the Thistle Mace; two arms would let them wield the Treelord's Staff, which is either thematic, or disturbing - a Treelord holding a chunk of a dying treelord. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Hey, if Belial can sell his soul...

[Endoperez]

Vicious Love said:

Cainehill said:
But on the other paw, giving them an arm slot lets them use the Thistle Mace; two arms would let them wield the Treelord's Staff, which is either thematic, or disturbing - a Treelord holding a chunk of a dying treelord. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Hey, if Belial can sell his soul...



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Never realized that!

[Wish]

It would be thematic for a dying treelord to be holding a piece of himself.

[Endoperez]

That would be a piece of some long-dead specimen of his, surely.

It could fit, at least for some. There are many similar examples spread throughout Dominions: Skull Staff is like this for most humans; Pangaean hero, the Black Bull, has his father's skull on his staff; Hangadrotts seemingly killed themselves; I'm not sure if any Ermorian mages do this, but they surely would...

However, the Dying Treelord is an exception. Just like normal Vanadrotts wouldn't go around sacrificing any of the precious few Vanir, or most Pandemoniacs having anything else than a human's skull on their staffs, etc. I would allow the Dying Treelord hands, if it was otherwise balanced. Or maybe mobility. He is dying, so he mightn't care how dangerous flying around effectively rootless is...

[quantum_mechani]

I should also point out one other detail I forgot to mention in the first post, making them immobile again would also return their bonus to summoning vine men. Also, an intersting bit of trivia, the dying treelord gets one more vine man/orge per summoning than even the other treelords. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

While I'm not necessarily adverse to removing the misc slots, I don't think I would add any arm slots, it just seems too bizarre.

[Turin]

but you should really tone down the gem generation a little. Right now it´s pretty crazy, the n6 treelord pays for itself after only ~8 turns. And then you still have a supersturdy n6 mage.

I´d say remove the misc slots and give them 2 less gems per turn each and they´d be fine.

[archaeolept]

yah, that sounds about right

[Valandil]

with arm slots they could also wield shields/ weapons. Not usually a problem, since they're nearly immobile, but their stats arent bad at all, and they could be rather nasty fighters. Just a thought.
Pro Immobility, Valandil.

[Emelio Lizardo]

If I might make a totally odd suggestion. Since Tree Lords (ents) are notoriously neutral when the spell is cast it should result in a new magic site that is the tree lord. He might decide to ally with you and turn up in a battle, but his real concern is making the forest a safe place for trees. So he add growth and life to the province, pumps vine critters into PD if he likes you, and does attrition attacks on eco unfriendly troops. If you attempt to build a castle in the province he should attack you and make the province independent if he wins. Then he builds for max defense. Give him an enter site option for any nature mage (pluses for druids) that lets you make deals with him.

[Emelio Lizardo]

It could be his own chunk of a dying treelord that he is holding, in which case you get an insane treelord with hairy palms. Now that's disturbing. Next we'll have marxists.

[Vicious Love]

Always assumed Dominions was an opiate, really...

[PDF]

IMHO Immobile Treelords are pretty useless...and additionnal measures to keep them totally immobile (no misc for example) only make this worse.
And why should they be immobile ? They're trees, but magical ones ! Tolkienite Ents do move eventually, so why Dom Treelords couldn't ? "Natural" explanations such as "trees don't move" are out of place here : did someone ever cross an Ice Devil IRL ? Still I see them in every game I play ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[shovah]

but the fact that a treelord can go flying around just seems stupid. even in a fantasy game

[PDF]

shovah said:
but the fact that a treelord can go flying around just seems stupid. even in a fantasy game



Sure, but it's not a Treelord problem ! A flying fountain doesn't make much more sense...
I remember the game where I put 3 Tarrasques on a Flying carpet, I had a good laugh too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[shovah]

true but does a fountain need roots in the ground?

[PDF]

shovah said:
true but does a fountain need roots in the ground?



It needs some link to a source, doesn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[shovah]

well if yoour thinker of the pretender chassis the divine spirit in them IS their sorce

[Endoperez]

What about the Nature itself, if the treelords happen to be somewhat less egoistic embodiments of the etenral forces than the spirit of the Oracle?

Anythign can be axplained away with magic. Some things just conjure so strange images to our minds that they are best left alone, EVEN if they could be logically explained. It's the opposite of urban legends and myths, IMO - they are believed to be true without any proof, often even though they can be logically disproved.

[Graeme Dice]

shovah said:
true but does a fountain need roots in the ground?



Does a treelord?

[shovah]

most liekly, and i really dont see a flying carpet/ship flying with them (or any big things but...)

[Oversway]

One thing I do like about non-immobile, arm instead of misc slot treelords is it would be a fairly unique in terms of gameplay and strategy - a powerful unit but restricted to forest terrain (yes you could empower with astral but that has its own weakness).

Personally I can imagine a fountain and a tree flying around on a carpet, or anything else.

[Endoperez]

Oversway said:

One thing I do like about non-immobile, arm instead of misc slot treelords is it would be a fairly unique in terms of gameplay and strategy - a powerful unit but restricted to forest terrain (yes you could empower with astral but that has its own weakness).

Personally I can imagine a fountain and a tree flying around on a carpet, or anything else.



Except for the fact that, last I tried, Faery Trod isn't restriced to Forests. Or was it Call of the Wild? Any way, something didn't work as it should have.

[Cainehill]

Call of the Wild isn't, while I'm almost positive that Faery Trod is; I've had treelords casting it and they were limitted in where they could go.

[Emelio Lizardo]

shovah said:
true but does a fountain need roots in the ground?



You never heard of plumbing?

[Emelio Lizardo]

Endoperez said:
Anythign can be axplained away with magic. Some things just conjure so strange images to our minds that they are best left alone, EVEN if they could be logically explained. It's the opposite of urban legends and myths, IMO - they are believed to be true without any proof, often even though they can be logically disproved.



I kink of think that even in a fantasy game, book, or movie, there needs to be some internal logic and limitations based upon some premis. Otherwise eveything is just arbitrary, which ultimately is boring. A lot of kludge game balancing takes place because the authors didn't really give thought to creating natural limitations.

[Olive]

i don't see why a tree capable of thinkink and casting powerfull magic can't teleport himself because of his roots.

If he is able to cast teleport, he can also teleport his roots and slip it in the ground. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Cainehill]

Olive said:
i don't see why a tree capable of thinkink and casting powerfull magic can't teleport himself because of his roots.

If he is able to cast teleport, he can also teleport his roots and slip it in the ground. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Sure - via the nature / forest spell Faery Trod. But not to float around on a flying carpet, which is a current exploit in some versions of the CB mod prior to 5.2.

Via teleport though, if someone were to empower a Treelord with astral magic? No. Yes, he can teleport himself, but all his roots above ground would be a problem - especially teleporting into mountains, castles, or (heh heh) the sea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Cainehill said:

Olive said:
i don't see why a tree capable of thinkink and casting powerfull magic can't teleport himself because of his roots.

If he is able to cast teleport, he can also teleport his roots and slip it in the ground. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Sure - via the nature / forest spell Faery Trod. But not to float around on a flying carpet, which is a current exploit in some versions of the CB mod prior to 5.2.

Via teleport though, if someone were to empower a Treelord with astral magic? No. Yes, he can teleport himself, but all his roots above ground would be a problem - especially teleporting into mountains, castles, or (heh heh) the sea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Actually, even with immobile, I believe empowering with astral would allow teleporting (just like most immobile pretenders).

[mathusalem]

if you want to move a treelord, use Transformation ;-)

[Vicious Love]

Olive said:
i don't see why a tree capable of thinkink and casting powerfull magic can't teleport himself because of his roots.

If he is able to cast teleport, he can also teleport his roots and slip it in the ground. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



As Cainehill mentioned, teleportation isn't the issue. Still, you'd think something with such an enduring magical connection to the soil wouldn't be able to uproot itself on a whim. I mean, I can see the whole forest kinda shifting around it, since the trees don't mess with the treelord, but I still can't see it getting used to a new province in less than a century or two without bringing at last half of its old province along for the ride.

Also,
Emelio Lizardo casts Raise Skeletons
Emelio Lizardo casts Raise Skeletons

[PDF]

Could we stop these kinda ridiculous disputes about what could or not do a Treelord if ever a such thing existed ?

IMO the question is to know if, *in the Dom2 game*, a Treelord should or not be tagged immobile for gameplay, interest and balance. The rest is really useless babble ...

[Oversway]

I have photographic evidence of treelords using flying carpets in real life, so that should settle this dispute http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[shovah]

show us them then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif but i agree that we need to stop these 'trees cant fly' comments. for balance and thematic reasons though id say immobile and stay that way.

[Tom_Scudder]

Re: Treelord teleportation: anyone ever read SWAMP THING?

[Vicious Love]

Heh! Precisely what I thought of when I first read this thread. Still, it could go either way, thematically. There's still something odd about the Treelord going through the gate, as opposed to simply being the gate. Deep bloody roots.