SC's vs Thugs

[OG_Gleep]

What is the line that seperates a thug from an SC? I would assume HP's have a lot to do with it, but as both terms are used to categorize a large number of units, I still don't know what makes a SC a SC.

[shovah]

an SC is generally fully kitted out with great gear and capable of destroying most armys single handed, a thug often only has a few items, can handle indies and small armies usually but are often used in groups (with berserk so they dont flee if possible) as they lack the ability of SCs.

Thug Example: banelord with lifedrain weapon/high defense weapon+charcoal shield and a lucky pendant (and maybesomething for berserking)

SC example: Tartarian with a good shield and weapon, horror helm, high protection armour with low def reduction, boots of quickness/flying shoes, lucky pendant and ring of regen.

SCs can also be between these 2 examples and scs also often have self buffs (such as golems, which are one of ym favourite SCs)

[Morkilus]

Rumor has it that a true SC must be dubbed thus by the esteemed Saber Cherry, for whom the title was originated.

Seriously, there was an old thread about this sort of thing sometime last fall. Compare your guy to those, and see if it's worthy. I would say true SC can take out common level 9 indies singlehandedly without a wound. Thugs can take out level 3 to 6 by themselves, but operate better in groups (equipped banelords come to mind). A real SC should be a nightmare to almost any army without specialized magic to deal with it (magic weapons, soul slay casters).

At least that's how I understand the terms.

[shovah]

yea, SCs aare almost always very tough fully decked out commanders in the best gear, or units that are so naturaly powerful that it is hard to take them even with 1-2 items (a gift of reasoned vastness or doom horror with a ring of regen and lucky pendant/antimagic amulet rocks and only costs a little after wish and GoR compared to say ettin mandragoras)

[Oversway]

It is a subjective measure.

One way to look at this is once your attack, prot, and defense start get into the mid to high twenties, you've got an sc. In the low twenties maybe its more of a thug. Also, SCs usually have some decent magic to buff with, thugs not as often.

[Vicious Love]

I like to draw the line thusly:
A thug is simply effective against regular troops, to the point at which it is most efficiently dealt with via unconventional spells/tactics.
An SC, in contrast, is completely immune to regular troops. Barring the 50/100 turn limit, outrageous statistical improbability, or hostile magical intervention, an SC will never, ever, under any circumstances succumb to an army of nationals(excepting sacreds) and/or most low-end summons, no matter that army's size. Ye Olde Selfe Buffing Ghost King and Air Queen are good examples of such a SCs: sending a regular army against them, even one worth thousands of gold, is utterly futile.

[Tom_Scudder]

Where would Bogus the Troll fall on the scale?

[Endoperez]

I don't know about Bogus, but the Dark Knight falls on "cheesy". He knows his tactics: he only attacks commanders! I'm not sure if its magic-users or commanders in general, but its rather extraordinary, either way.

[Boron]

Vicious Love said:
I like to draw the line thusly:
A thug is simply effective against regular troops, to the point at which it is most efficiently dealt with via unconventional spells/tactics.
An SC, in contrast, is completely immune to regular troops. Barring the 50/100 turn limit, outrageous statistical improbability, or hostile magical intervention, an SC will never, ever, under any circumstances succumb to an army of nationals(excepting sacreds) and/or most low-end summons, no matter that army's size. Ye Olde Selfe Buffing Ghost King and Air Queen are good examples of such a SCs: sending a regular army against them, even one worth thousands of gold, is utterly futile.



There are some exeptions. Illithids can luck e.g. with their paralyze mind blow, Jotuns can also be lucky and kill a SC.
Then there are some troops with alternative attacks, like web+poison from the machaka spiders.
Ulm arlabests can also luck, pythium hydras maybe too.

Even 100 black knights might get some lucky lance hits and kill the enemy SC. And don't forget Ulms capitol only guardians, they have magical weapons, good strength and good weapon damage.

So i would say a SC can take down normally any reasonable army. But 100 black knights or the like are theoretically possible too though in praxis probably no player will build them (maybe in faerun).

[Endoperez]

Well, Vicious Love said that worked, except for "outrageous statistical improbability"... Which could include the lucky hits Black Knights might be able to cause. I don't think he meant it that way, though. Something truly outrageous would be a Black Hawk hitting 100+ points of damage to a Cyclops, taking out his both arms.

I think BK etc powerful troops should be put to the same category as blessed units. They aren't as good, in most cases, but that's the closest thing.

[shovah]

Tom_Scudder said:
Where would Bogus the Troll fall on the scale?



id put bogus down as a thug, but he could become a high lvl thug/very low lvl sc if given some great items but not worth it imo. bogus is actually quite a good example of a thug now that i think of it

[Oversway]

The Greenstone armor that bogus wears isn't that great - high enc for its prot. But his other equipment is decent.

Troll Kings can be really nice, with the right equipment. You get high str and regen built in. Can cast summon earthpower and invulerability. Sea Kings are good too -- quickness and breath of winter. Although I frequently have Sea Kings casting falling frost instead...

I'm not sure if I'd say the troll kings are high end thugs or low end scs. They can't compete with air queens, but they can destroy most regular troop armies.

[shovah]

i would put troll kings as high end thugs unless they are equiped. give them a lucky pendant and an amulet of anti magic/amulet of resilence/amulet of missle protection. then give flying shoes/boots of quckness

[RonD]

Troll kings are great anti-SC artillery (petrify).

[Vicious Love]

Boron said:
There are some exeptions. Illithids can luck e.g. with their paralyze mind blow, Jotuns can also be lucky and kill a SC.
Then there are some troops with alternative attacks, like web+poison from the machaka spiders.
Ulm arlabests can also luck, pythium hydras maybe too.




I was wondering when someone would mention those exceptions. I hadn't thought of Machaka's spiders, though, nor about national troops with magic weapons and high attack. Nice catch.
However, I do disagree on the point of the hydras. And a true SC should always have either the protection or the Air Shield to survive an army of unenchanted crossbowmen, even on a bad day.

As for the 100 black knights, most SCs would have some combination of fear, Breath of Winter, Soul Vortex, etherealness, Mirror Image, Mistform etc to survive melee combat with a few of them, and chase or kill off the rest before they can use their lances.

Still, "most SCs" is not "all SCs", and I'm willing to grant that a few of the combat monsters I'd term "SCs" would still be taken down by large amounts of higher-end national troops, unless specially kitted to counter knights/jotuns/spiders/whatever. Point taken.

[Graeme Dice]

Vicious Love said:
Still, "most SCs" is not "all SCs", and I'm willing to grant that a few of the combat monsters I'd term "SCs" would still be taken down by large amounts of higher-end national troops, unless specially kitted to counter knights/jotuns/spiders/whatever. Point taken.



I've seen about 30 of my centaur warriors take down an air queen with jade armour and a wraith sword, so it's certainly possible, though perhaps unlikely. Of course, centaur warriors are one of the top national troops, so that's not really representative of the human nations.

[Boron]

Vicious Love said:
...
However, I do disagree on the point of the hydras. And a true SC should always have either the protection or the Air Shield to survive an army of unenchanted crossbowmen, even on a bad day.
...
Still, "most SCs" is not "all SCs", and I'm willing to grant that a few of the combat monsters I'd term "SCs" would still be taken down by large amounts of higher-end national troops, unless specially kitted to counter knights/jotuns/spiders/whatever. Point taken.



First i didn't want to sound know-it-all, i hope you didn't get this intention from my post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I am personally no big fan of SCs. Problem is that you never can't design your SC to survive all possible threats.
If you give your SC e.g. an Airshield this takes away 1 important misc slot.
I said Arlabests, not X-bows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. An Arlabest does 17 ap damage, a X-bow only 10.
So even with a robe of invulnerability the Arlabest should do some damage.

But what's more important and that makes me normally rather dislike SCs: The enemy will also have mage support or thugs.
If the enemy has a combination of high damage troops and anti-SC mages you can't protect vs. everything.
I am not talking about high end Mages atm but rather about average ones. If your MR is low there is e.g. paralyze.
Then there are several good elemental attacks like incinerate or lightning bolt or thunderstrike.
If your SC is undead dust to dust is dangerous.
Also some spammers of phantasmal warriors, false horrors, ghost wolves or skellis probably can't defeat an enemy SC but at least stall him till the 50 turn limit. If the SC has encumberance they can maybe even kill him.
That's all just weak stuff though.

If you take Ctis e.g. they can skelspam, relief, drain life, and bane fire with their cheap 180 gold Sauros.
That's very tough for an enemy SC.
Then if your SC has astral magic he might get mind duelled etc. .

So you have to try to design your SCs in a way that they are both good vs. mages and troops. Because SCs have a mobility advantage and can get support too they are still good but vs. humans SCs can rarely Solo, only in the early stages of the game (QMs infamous SC pretenders!).

[Folket]

Does CB increase damage of arbalests? Last I looked they did 13ap damage.

[OG_Gleep]

From a lot of responces, an SC is not dertmined by the mob, but by the effects it has either natural or with equipment, or for the effects it CAN have via buffs?

But on the other hand, from the other threads, certain mobs are always going to be classified as Thugs, such as Banelords, no matter how they are equipped.

Out of all the possible units in the game, there must be a huge list of units that will "never be SC's", a small list that "Could be SC's", and an even smaller list that "Will always be considered an SC".

One person mentioned the 3 stats (Prot/Attack/Def). Is that where that line is drawn, at statistical markers? Does Hitpoints play a factor at all? Are there certain effects that must be present?

PS. I looked at most of the threads on the subject, but no one really defined where the line is drawn. I'm more trying to determine what column to put the various units in.

[shovah]

a model like an airqueen/king of the world/doom horror is usually automatically considered and sc equiped or not, then some things such as the doom horrors when well equiped become uber scs

[Endoperez]

I think the line goes in survivability. Prot is one side, hits another, def yet one more. Maybe two of those three, and at least five defensive/survivability-enchancing abilities (, immunity/high resistance to an element, air shield, ethereality, luck, regeneration/life drain) and at least one way of reliably getting rid of the enemies (damage shield or aura, effective attacks, Fear rating, trample; possibly a battle-wide spell, but that might be in its own category, or at least not cost-effective as fatique is yet another SC-killer).

[shovah]

a lucky etheral astral shielded regenerating reinvigorated golem with the unquenqed sword and soulstone of the wolves is fun, very hard to kill, deadly, and while wolves attack people they catch fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif so 2 free battlefield wide spells per fight is fun

[Oversway]

One person mentioned the 3 stats (Prot/Attack/Def). Is that where that line is drawn, at statistical markers? Does Hitpoints play a factor at all? Are there certain effects that must be present?



Yeah, sorry, hitpoints are important as well. I would also say you need some way to avoid fatigue - like reinvigoration or life drain or 0 enc. Or a combination.

There is no easy rule to decide what is and SC vs. Thug. Everyone has their own opinion.

[Tom_Scudder]

You left out astral weapon, I b'lieve.

[RonD]

the reason there is no line is because it makes no difference. Your unit is what it is. Your golem will not become more effective just because you decide to call it an SC rather than a thug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[shovah]

Tom_Scudder said:
You left out astral weapon, I b'lieve.



left it out on purpose because unless fighting something very big his strength+the 16 or so ap damage is enough

[quantum_mechani]

Folket said:
Does CB increase damage of arbalests? Last I looked they did 13ap damage.

Yes, they are now 17 damage.

[shovah]

im guessing its to make up for the lack of speed? next you'll be telling me smiths come with e2 AND f1

[OG_Gleep]

RonD said:
the reason there is no line is because it makes no difference. Your unit is what it is. Your golem will not become more effective just because you decide to call it an SC rather than a thug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



This is true. I could call it a doggiepooperdoodle but it won't change what it is. The title in this case however is a reflection of application, tactical application. Sending a thug to do a SC's job will end up costing you a lot of gems. And on the flip side, Sending a SC in a huge stack will be a unefficient use of an even larger supply of gems.

There is definatley a line that keeps units, no matter how they are equipped, from performing in the SC role. Thats basically what I was trying to determine. If you have that, you can basically quickly look at a unit and determine if it could be deployed and utilized as a SC would.

[Morkilus]

shovah said:
im guessing its to make up for the lack of speed? next you'll be telling me smiths come with e2 AND f1



It is relatively easy to look at the mod file itself, in a text editor, and see the changes for yourself. I believe the Readme file is still not updated from 5.0 (maybe I could do this in my "free" time...)

There is no need to be smart-***; if you don't like the mods, don't use them and don't play in multiplayer games that do. If changes concern you, look them up.

[Oversway]

There is definatley a line that keeps units, no matter how they are equipped, from performing in the SC role. Thats basically what I was trying to determine. If you have that, you can basically quickly look at a unit and determine if it could be deployed and utilized as a SC would.



This game has too much variety to have rules that easy. It depends on what you can equip, what magic you can cast, and most importantly, what armies you are facing.

[Cainehill]

Not to mention, how much you're willing to empower critters that aren't usually considered SCs. GoR a tarrasque and empower it a bit, and it certainly falls into the potential SC class. ( I did this in a game on the World map - think it had air, water and fire all at 2 or 3, making it a very big way to say "hello" by cloud trapezing it in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[shovah]

Morkilus said:

shovah said:
im guessing its to make up for the lack of speed? next you'll be telling me smiths come with e2 AND f1



It is relatively easy to look at the mod file itself, in a text editor, and see the changes for yourself. I believe the Readme file is still not updated from 5.0 (maybe I could do this in my "free" time...)

There is no need to be smart-***; if you don't like the mods, don't use them and don't play in multiplayer games that do. If changes concern you, look them up.



its called a joke

[Truper]

From the man who coined the terms:


apoger said:
New Classifications


A while back I coined the term Supercombatant as a description of super high power units. Over time players have started to use this term in ways that are different than the initial meaning. This has caused some frustrating conversations, and subsequent confusion. Simply put, the Dominions community needs more naming conventions so players can communicate with more precision.

Many players have started using the term Supercombatant for almost anything larger than heavy infantry. That isn't very useful since the scope of units that are more potent than heavy infantry is fairly large. As such I am now suggesting two new classifications, and redescribing the term Supercombatant.


THUG

Simply put a thug goes out and beats things up and has a reasonable chance of surviving. Thugs don't beat up high power armies, and they aren't meant to be invincible. They are meant to be cheap and efficient ways of applying a beat down.

Some examples of thugs would be:
Neifelheim Giant
Hydra
Wyrm (no/little magic)
Vanjarl - with magic weapon and casting mistform
Jotun Herse - with a few choice magic items
Troll
Lava Warrior
Knight

As you can see there is a hefty power scale fluctuation even in the thug classification. However these guys are not Supercombatants and that is what I am trying to make clear.


SLAYER

A Slayer is a unit that has been cultivated to be powerful enough to wreck conventional armies. This is really a specialized sub-class of supercombatant. The Slayer is built with cost cutting in mind, to make it as cheap as possible and still be able to disperse conventional forces. Slayers are not meant to deal with mages or magic creatures. They are used primarily as an early game expansion aid, and as attack/defense while player nations aren't fielding much magic. During the late game when potent magic is available, Slayers are usually relegated to raiding duty.


Some examples of slayers would be:

Manticore
Astral magic - 6
On entering battle it casts, Body Etheral, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and then attacks.

Heliophagus
Wraith Sword, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Pendent of Luck, Ring of Regeneration


SUPERCOMBATANT

Supercombatants are built in an attempt to walk onto a battlefield alone and clean house versus any opposition. The potency/penetration of the spell Paralyze has made life a bit tough on Supercombatants and players of Dom2 are using more thugs and slayers than they did in Dom1. Still it's fun to use them, and they can still be effective. Just keep in mind that they are very powerful, but not invincible.


An example of a supercombatant would be:

Nataraja
Earth magic - 4
Air magic - 2
Nature magic - 3
Wraith Sword, Faithful, Charcoal Shield, Starshine Skullcap, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Anti-Magic amulet.
On entering battle it casts, Invulnerability, Mist Form, Personal Regeneration, Elemental Fortitude, and then attacks



Supercombatant and Thug have become a permanent part of the Dominions lexicon. For some reason, Slayer never caught on.

[shovah]

thug is fun to say, sc sounds fun but slayer is just.. well... slayer. lets all try to use slayer a little more

[Morkilus]

Aren't the Abysian assassins called slayers? Makes sense that the word went out of style if people don't want to get confused. How about "Conans"? I have plenty of books where, on the cover, he's standing on a pile of militia/light infantry/heavy infantry. I guess we could say "tanks", if you want to bring in the MMO jargon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Oversway]

I don't see how a 6s Manticore nor a heavily equipped Heliophagus "is built with cost cutting in mind"

[shovah]

the manticore one is just un-equiped, and i wouldnt say that heliophagus is 'heavily equiped'

[Vicious Love]

Boron said:
First i didn't want to sound know-it-all, i hope you didn't get this intention from my post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.



Not at all. Erm... sorry I gave the impression that I got that impression, I guess.


I am personally no big fan of SCs. Problem is that you never can't design your SC to survive all possible threats.



Well, yeah. Thugs are always expendable, SCs... not so much. Especially since a true SC often calls for a unique artifact or two. I think that's another loose guideline for drawing the fuzzy line between thug and SC.
I don't really like SCs either, unless I know precisely what sort of opposition I'll be facing. Still, if you've gone to the trouble of securing some of the more powerful unique artifacts, you owe it to yourself to give them the most survivable chassis you can find.


I said Arlabests, not X-bows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. An Arlabest does 17 ap damage, a X-bow only 10.



14 in the unmodded game, but that extra 4 AP damage is still pretty significant.
So even with a robe of invulnerability the Arlabest should do some damage.


But what's more important and that makes me normally rather dislike SCs: The enemy will also have mage support or thugs.
If the enemy has a combination of high damage troops and anti-SC mages you can't protect vs. everything.



Not always true. No SC is utterly indestructible, all can be stalled until turn 50, all can be easily paralyzed with Petrify and, yes, all are tremendously susceptible to Drain Life. Those two spells aside, though, there are still SCs that are virtually immune to lower-end mages and unspecialized, general-purpose thugs, save in vast numbers.
With the right chassis and the right combination of unique artifacts, you can field a regenerating, lifedraining, self-reinvigorating, elemental-immune, magic-resistant monstrosity. There will still be counters, but your opponent will have to put some thought into them in order to be cost-effective.

[shovah]

a fun tactic is to get a load of flying sc's in one place as if massing for an attack then when the enemy brings over his anti sc mages shoot right past them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Valandil]

Banefire? Gifts From Heaven? 72 quickened arch seraphs casting lightening bolt?

If you live through these (except for the seraphs... then you are an sc. Otherwise, you are dead and it doesn't matter.

Seriously, the line between a thug and an sc is so blurred as to be meaningless. The best rule I've found is that if it kills armies then it is good, otherwise, don't use it.

[shovah]

iirc gifts from heaven and banefire are quite inaccurate. and as for the seraphs just make him immune to lightning (and hope they dont spam wolves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

[Cainehill]

Innacurate? They hit a hex. If your caster has air magic, or an eye of aiming, or 1 nature for eagle eyes, I wouldn't want to be much under tartarian, prophetized Niefel, or pretender (in friendly dominion). As far as the seraphs go - best make sure he's immune to cold as well (but doesn't frozen heart damage cold immunes?).

And, shovah : rarely does someone have _so_ many SCs of any nature that they can mass a "load of" flying ones. Other than the Air Queens, most SCs don't fly, and making them fly wastes a slot, often making them "a dead former SC known as Prince" or some such. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Cainehill]

Valandil said:
Seriously, the line between a thug and an sc is so blurred as to be meaningless. The best rule I've found is that if it kills armies then it is good, otherwise, don't use it.



How about this : The SC is the one where, you weep if you lose it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[shovah]

lol, i remember the time i thought id lost my uber tooledup golem to ulmish pd, i almost punched my monitor in but then i remembered it was just a commander id sacrificed

[Vicious Love]

Cainehill said:
Not to mention, how much you're willing to empower critters that aren't usually considered SCs. GoR a tarrasque and empower it a bit, and it certainly falls into the potential SC class. ( I did this in a game on the World map - think it had air, water and fire all at 2 or 3, making it a very big way to say "hello" by cloud trapezing it in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )



Whoa. About 12 tarrasques worth of tarrasque. I never went further than GoRing one as a relatively cheap throwaway platform for Kurgi's Gift. I guess the middlin' MR is kind of a turn-off. Now, a GoRed abomination, especially one with an MR-enhancing item and/or path, that's Soul Slay resistant. The lifedrains are a plus, too.

[shovah]

an abomb with amulet of anti-magic and some reinvig (or maybe an air shield)

[Vicious Love]

One level of earth gives both basic reinvig and an MR boost, if you're willing to spend 1-2 rounds buffing. Does Iron Will stack with Magic Resistance/Amulets of Antimagic?

[Graeme Dice]

shovah said:
an abomb with amulet of anti-magic and some reinvig (or maybe an air shield)



It has three life drain attacks, so it won't need reinvigoration except against air magic and lifeless opponents. You'd probably be best off with an amulet of anti-magic and a ring of lightning resistance for general use.

[shovah]

depends who your fighting (the ring wont help you much vrs abysia will it?) but if you could get an artifact (gift of kurgi/soulstone/nethgul) it might help

[Endoperez]

Artifact WOULD help - but it could also be used elsewhere for even greater effects.

Remember, the truly great SC builds aren't about achieving the most power, but being very effective for their cost. Gift-of-Reasoning, Empowering and giving artifacts to a single Abomination makes him very powerful, but you could have dozen very powerful thugs, or 5-6 SCs, with the same price.

EVERY thing can die. Because of that, NOTHING is good enough to use all those resources on. Except in SP, and just for fun... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I remember someone playing Ulm, and the stories of the heroic Cave Drake leading his assault squad on a flying carpet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I'd like to do something as cool as that!

[Vicious Love]

Endoperez said:
Artifact WOULD help - but it could also be used elsewhere for even greater effects.



What abominations lack in SC potential, they make up for in survivability. Consequently, they tend to make better, more cost-effective* platforms for, say, the Soulstone of the Wolves. And I still think they're a decent choice for Kurgi's Gift, what with having no spell levels to lose, and being ultimately expendable.


*25+20(GoR)}+5(Amulet of Antimagic) gems vs a Tartarian's 10-30+equipment+means of healing afflictions). Bearing in mind the Achilles' Heel that is undeath, to say nothing of superior HP and built in lifedrain/regenration combo, I find abominations well worth the slightly higher base cost.

[Alneyan]

Vicious Love said:
One level of earth gives both basic reinvig and an MR boost, if you're willing to spend 1-2 rounds buffing. Does Iron Will stack with Magic Resistance/Amulets of Antimagic?



From memory (I so wish I could play Dominions from school), MR item bonuses stack with MR spell bonuses, since they aren't the same thing, but MR spell effects *are* the same thing as far the game is concerned. So, Iron Will should stack with the Amulet, but Iron Will does not stack with Antimagic, the MR part of Army of Lead, or the Astral battlefield spell giving increased MR to everyone around.

[archaeolept]

an abomination commander w/ the gift of kurgi would last as long as bumping into the first astral mage. survivable, maybe - still yours, maybe not.

[shovah]

i thought even when feebleminded abombs had good mr?

[archaeolept]

"good" is a bit relative - the AI will preferentially target them (cause they have tons of hp); so, while my statement was a bit exagerated ;p - a group of astral mages w/ some chaff would almost certainly prevail, since the mages will spam enslave and the like on it.

[Vicious Love]

archaeolept said:
"good" is a bit relative - the AI will preferentially target them (cause they have tons of hp); so, while my statement was a bit exagerated ;p - a group of astral mages w/ some chaff would almost certainly prevail, since the mages will spam enslave and the like on it.



MR 19 isn't that bad, and almost every true SC or higher-end thug has to deal with Enslave Mind and Soul Slay spamming. Particularly the ones that attack alone, or at the head of small squads of flying/teleporting thugs. I figure the point of a flying abomination is being able to use it wherever you see fit, instead of just indiscriminately sending it at any astral mage stacks that come your way.

Besides, think of the alternatives. Abominations have the highest base MR in the game*, waste no spell levels by being gifted, and can take down any horrors that come their way with relative ease. How much equipment would you have to give any other summon for them to survive Kurgi's Gift? How much more would it sting if you lost all that equipment to a lucky Soul Slay or Enslave Mind?

*I believe they tie with doom horrors and vastnesses. I may be wrong. At any rate, both are overpriced. With the possible exeption of an Astral-9 blessed Vastness. Expensive, but one hell of a giftbearer.

Edit: Also, if we're talking about army vs army combat, the least you could do is throw in a casting of Army of Lead or Resist Magic.

[Graeme Dice]

Vicious Love said:
MR 19 isn't that bad, and almost every true SC or higher-end thug has to deal with Enslave Mind and Soul Slay spamming.



MR 19 means that you'll fail somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1-5% of the time.

[RonD]

Graeme Dice said:

MR 19 means that you'll fail somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1-5% of the time.



That's the theory. It assumes a minimum-level caster, base dominion, etc. Practice is somewhat different. My experience is that any one (or even two) things with 19 MR facing a squad of 5 or more Atlantis or Pythium astral mages will fall to soul slay, and probably sooner in the battle rather than later (and will probably be paralyzed to boot).

[Vicious Love]

RonD said:

Graeme Dice said:

MR 19 means that you'll fail somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1-5% of the time.



That's the theory. It assumes a minimum-level caster, base dominion, etc. Practice is somewhat different. My experience is that any one (or even two) things with 19 MR facing a squad of 5 or more Atlantis or Pythium astral mages will fall to soul slay, and probably sooner in the battle rather than later (and will probably be paralyzed to boot).



That seems to square with the theory. Assuming the above five mages aren't quickened, and have a 5% chance per casting of making it past MR, the abomination still has only ~60% odds of surviving the second round of combat, and ~46% of surviving the third.
I still consider this perfectly acceptable, since this sort of thug simply isn't meant to go up against astral mages, particularly without a friendly mage to boost its MR further.

Once again, I'd like to point out there are few alternative combat platforms for Kurgi's Gift which aren't simultaneously more expensive, more vulnerable to both magic and conventional weapons, and much more painful to lose.

[Valandil]

Maybe a vastness from the gate...
I also gave the gift to the ettin mandragora (no wish).
It was pretty good, but not worth the blood hunting in a pop-killing dominion.

[Cainehill]

RonD said:

Graeme Dice said:

MR 19 means that you'll fail somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1-5% of the time.



That's the theory. It assumes a minimum-level caster, base dominion, etc. Practice is somewhat different. My experience is that any one (or even two) things with 19 MR facing a squad of 5 or more Atlantis or Pythium astral mages will fall to soul slay, and probably sooner in the battle rather than later (and will probably be paralyzed to boot).



Yep - especially considering that most people who are trying to do enslaves or soul slays, etc, probably have equipped their mages with items such as Rune Smasher that give a bonus to penetrating MR.

[shovah]

but the best part is when you send a bunch of chaff and archers against those mages with only a few guards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif. but a spell focus+rune smasher astrologer will just laugh at most thugs or scs

[RonD]

shovah said:
but the best part is when you send a bunch of chaff and archers against those mages with only a few guards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif. but a spell focus+rune smasher astrologer will just laugh at most thugs or scs



Do you really expect a competant player to leave a squad of astral mages standing out in a field, waiting for your chaff and archers to march up and kill them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

The trick to successful MP does not lie building the right army or in making the perfect SC - it lies in making sure you are the one who chooses the time, place and circumstance of the critical battles.

[KissBlade]

Very true Ron, that is probably one of the first things I learned from blitzing.

[OG_Gleep]

I just learned of Gift of Reason not too long ago. Do you guys use this often? Whats the most cost effective thug that you guys tend to use?

[shovah]

the most cost effective thugs are probably banelord with luck ammy, life drain and either air shield/flying shoes if possible. these guys are extremely cheap (for thugs/scs atleast) and are pretty tough. a few trinkets can be added (especially with a heroic ability) and with a hellsword/other berserk item they can be used in packs

[Alneyan]

Tartarians are an old favourite for Gift of Reason... or that sleezy Air Queen/Arch Devil... you've just captured in a fight (Enslave Mind is your friend).

If you want to make a bold statement about your might, nothing beats a Gift of Reasoned Dragonfly, with no fewer than 1HP and abysmal fighting stats. If you are so powerful that you can afford this kind of waste of gem, how could you fail to squash your foes like... well, a dragonfly?

[Peacekeeper]

new goal in life: make a dragonfly SC...or thug at least.

[shovah]

tartarians can be good withGoF but gems would be better spent on more tartarians in most cases(might get a commander anyway) other good things are vastness's, abominations, tarrasques and anything you consider worthy of wishing for (ie combat pretender)

[Oversway]

At high summoning levels its all tartarians, golems, doom horrors, wraith lords etc. At lower levels...

Banelords, the Devil commander you get from Horde from Hell spell are good and cheap.

Some others that are good with CB mod
Firbolg
Harbinger (with a good blessing)

These you don't see as much but they are lower level summons that can be good thugs if you have a lot of gems
Crusher
Gargoyle

[archaeolept]

tartarians are the standard recipient for GoR. there is no more efficient use - though at least tartarians are a bit pricier in the mod

[OG_Gleep]

My two favorite thugs have to be banelord and the Harbringer. The harbringer is nice because you can throw on boots of stone and have them back up your other thugs wearing Air Jordans.

Firbolgs, I still haven't figured out what the best use for them....as archers or melee thugs.

[Cainehill]

Peacekeeper said:
new goal in life: make a dragonfly SC...or thug at least.



Heh. Gift of Reason the dragonfly. Empower it with Astral magic until you can starting Wish(ing) for Power and Magic Power. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

That is then a _Dragon_ Fly! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Tom_Scudder]

GoR is fun with cross-breeding, specially if you score an ettin.

(Does anyone actually use cross-breeding? I've played with it a bit, but it seems like the good stuff is depressingly rare...)

[OG_Gleep]

Are there any other summoned mobs with magic paths like Tatarians? Or were the Tatarians ment to be used with GoR?

[Peacekeeper]

i have a question....how do you get a dragonfly outside of a battle? am i going to have to wish/transform myself? =)

[quantum_mechani]

Peacekeeper said:
i have a question....how do you get a dragonfly outside of a battle? am i going to have to wish/transform myself? =)

Unless you want to mod/map make or wish for it, there isn't.

[OG_Gleep]

I was just reading through the spell addendum doc, and they said that transformation can transform a mage into a dragonfly (although its noted that its rare).

[NTJedi]

OG_Gleep said:
I was just reading through the spell addendum doc, and they said that transformation can transform a mage into a dragonfly (although its noted that its rare).



Hopefully in DOM_3 50% or more of all units within the game will be possible with Transformation. Or at the very least make the spell available sooner. Currently it's almost never used because most of the changes aren't that great and its so high up in research its usually not worth it.

[Endoperez]

I don't think it would be feasible for a NATURE mage to transform into a Void monster, or to an armored Abysian Heavy Infanty, or a mounted unit (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif), etc etc...

There are lots of new animals. They should be added to the list. But as the units are more often differently equipped units I would hate to see Transformation changed like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[NTJedi]

I was looking for ways for the spell to be more valuable. If the spell does maintain a nature only focus it limits the possible units. If DOM_3 does keep a nature focus then possibly adding units like an Ivy King or TreeLord or WereBear.

[Endoperez]

Ivy King? Treelord? That's a bit far-fetched, don't you think?

There are lots of myths about various shape-shifter mages and such. Wizards turning into birds, wolves, bears, etc. Even into trees. But a Treelord is a bit too much! Vine men, even Vine Ogres, I could see.

Besides, I'm sure just allowing Transform to turn the caster into one of the many possible units created but not updated to Transformation's list would be enough. Moose and Bears, Great Lions, etc.

Besides, where have you seen Werebears? The only ones I remember are Jotunheim's Skinshifters mentioned in one of the DevDiaries. Oops, sorry, even they turn into wolves.

[NTJedi]

Endoperez said:
Ivy King? Treelord? That's a bit far-fetched, don't you think?



Possibility exists for turning into a Dragonfly as very rare... why not have these as very rare. Making them the jackpot of the gamble. And considering they're obviously of nature I don't think they should be banned from the possibility.


Endoperez said:
Besides, I'm sure just allowing Transform to turn the caster into one of the many possible units created but not updated to Transformation's list would be enough. Moose and Bears, Great Lions, etc.



Well all the ones you listed have terrible MR and only two misc slots... leaving the spell as really not worth risking the nature mage. The spell has to be improved enough to be considered for use.


Endoperez said:
Besides, where have you seen Werebears?


Just giving a possible example of a unit within DOM_3 since this change will only be made within DOM_3.

[Alneyan]

quantum_mechani said:

Peacekeeper said:
i have a question....how do you get a dragonfly outside of a battle? am i going to have to wish/transform myself? =)

Unless you want to mod/map make or wish for it, there isn't.



Actually, there is: a failed Transform may transform the caster into a Dragonfly. It's a lot rarer than the other failed results, though.

Yay for me! The above tidbit of information has already been posted a few hours ago. I feel so useful.

[Oversway]

You'd get a (potientially?) feebleminded dragonfly commander from a transform, right? So no need to GoR, although wasn't that the point -- to show how you have nature gems to waste?

[Alneyan]

The commander will be feeble-minded: failed Transform changes the body (Foul Spawns are the common ones) and the mind (sanity is so fleeting).

The goal was indeed to waste as much resources (most notably gems, but also mage-time and so on). I believe the Dragonfly qualifies, though: Transform very rarely produces Dragonflies, so you will need to spend a lot of mage-turns and gems (8 per attempt) to get your Dragonfly, and then you still need to cure the feeble-mindedness for maximum effect. It would be *so* fun to have a Dragonfly with *high* magic paths, wouldn't it?

[Oversway]

Can you enslave/charm/hellbind a dragonfly from a swarm casting? Or a shark from summon sharks? I'd prefer a shark (no not a shark knight) over a dragonfly.

[Vicious Love]

Oversway said:

Can you enslave/charm/hellbind a dragonfly from a swarm casting? Or a shark from summon sharks? I'd prefer a shark (no not a shark knight) over a dragonfly.



Creatures that vanish at the end of a battle... vanish at the end of a battle. Regardless of whether they've switched sides. I read something on these boards about Ghost Rider wraith lords being the exception to this rule, but I've yet to test it myself, and am pretty strongly inclined to doubt it.

Edit: Well, that settles it. I'm adding "land sharks" to the Dom III wishlist.