SC/Thug rating

[shovah]

i had a SC thread a few months ago but it got off topic and was left to rot so here is a new and improved sc/thug thread.
Simply list your favourite SC/Thug loadout along with the general idea behind it and its script, then wait for it to be rated by other players
People wishing to rate a Thug/SC should consider the following: cost/time to make, versatility, survivability and power

edit: since its a little quiet here i'll start.

Basic Thug: Banelord
Hellsword (or Wraith Sword if you cant get hell)
Horror Helm
Any dragon scale armour (avaliability/opponent will decide what type)
Flying Shoes (if possible)
Ring of Regen
Pendant of Luck.

this is an all purpose higher end thug who can deal with most things (apart from anti sc's like astral mages with penetration gear) as he is tough to kill and does decent damage. when you know everything your fighting will be quite weak you can swap out the sword for charcoal shield+any weapon

[Ironhawk]

Your SC doesnt have quickness??

[Wish]

some people prefer flight over quickness. flight makes them more of a hazard on the map, where quickness makes them more of a hazard in combat.

[Morkilus]

My favorite (not saying it's the best) loadout for a thug under CB mods:

Banelord___15d
Dual Fire Bolas___10f
Hydra Skin Armor___10n
Sandals of the Crane___5s
Amulet of Resilience___10n
Luck Pendant___5s

55 gems total... you can throw a horror helm on if you like. He's better for supporting archers and mages than soloing, as the blink effect distracts pretty much everybody, and the fire shackles effect slows them down. High survivability.

[Daynarr]

Morkilus said:
My favorite (not saying it's the best) loadout for a thug under CB mods:

Banelord___15d
Dual Fire Bolas___10f
Hydra Skin Armor___10n
Sandals of the Crane___5s
Amulet of Resilience___10n
Luck Pendant___5s

55 gems total... you can throw a horror helm on if you like. He's better for supporting archers and mages than soloing, as the blink effect distracts pretty much everybody, and the fire shackles effect slows them down. High survivability.



Well thats interesting setup I must admit. Never tried that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[shovah]

ive tried that before but 1 thing i cant remember: can he use both bolas? (i assume yes)

[Ironhawk]

Wish_For_Blood_Slaves said:
some people prefer flight over quickness. flight makes them more of a hazard on the map, where quickness makes them more of a hazard in combat.



jade armor + flying boots

standard SC/thug gear for most loadouts

[Daynarr]

shovah said:
ive tried that before but 1 thing i cant remember: can he use both bolas? (i assume yes)



Yup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[shovah]

another option would be swap that guys hydra armour for jade armour (and maybe one of his miscs for ring of regen) for even more shots

[Valandil]

kay.
i read. And then i thought. And this is what I did.
wished Nataraja
2 bows of war
sandals of the crane
eye of aiming
amon hotep
jade armor
heroic quickness 178 percent

It shoots about 70 arrows a turn, and is totally not worth the two hundred something gems it cost.

Thank you

[shovah]

all i will say is brinmg a flaming arrows caster with him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Endoperez]

Bows of War will run out of arrows after some turns. Every time you fire them, you'll have one less bunch of missiles for the bows. BoWs (:D) have about 15 rounds of fire in normal conditions IIRC, but he would run out of arrows VERY quickly.

Storm Bow has unlimited ammo IIRC, and as do Fire Bolas. And Spirit Helmets, and... Rods of the Phoenix! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[shovah]

i though fire bolas was 50 ammo (although the above mentioned nataraja with 4 fire bolas and a spirit helm would be nasty

[Endoperez]

Might be. The "reforms itself on its wielders hand" might be fluff to explain how one Bola can be thrown multiple times, and usually battles can only last 50 rounds, so there would be no need for more ammo. It seems manual doesn't list the ammo count, so I might be wrong with the Storm Bow as well.

[shovah]

ive just checked, the fire bola does have 50 ammo and the thunder bow (VERY dissapointingly) only has 10 ammo (which seems to mainly be there to balance it as in the hands of a strong commander such as a jotun its deadly)

[Daynarr]

Bow of War has 7 ammo and each shot spends only 1 (2 if quickened)

[shovah]

which only lasts for a few rounds (is BoW not 13 ammo?)

[OG_Gleep]

I was thinking of posting a related thread, I was wondering how you guys liked to spec higher end summons like the Elemental King/Queens or the two Troll Kings (w/o artifacts, you can't always plan for those).

[Saber Cherry]

Troll kings are pretty weak; they don't compare to uniques. With unlimited gems they can replicate exponentially, though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You ought to check out the old Supercombattant tournament thread:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=336294&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1
You can also download the game to see the results - they're worth watching.

Most people entered 10-death-gem Tartarian Titans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Elemental royalty are extremely powerful, but very risky in big games because you don't know who already has them, and you can't risk wasting 50+ gems. Most people go with Air Queens, I think, since they start with ethereality and lightning immunity and so forth. I prefer Earth and Fire, but then again, I prefer Ice Devils anyway - much cheaper and lower path requirements. Royalty lack foot slots, too.

[Endoperez]

shovah said:
which only lasts for a few rounds (is BoW not 13 ammo?)



It fires 13 arrows per round (and per "missile"), but can only do it for 7 rounds.

And I totally misremembered everything about these three weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Vicious Love]

Saber Cherry said:
Most people entered 10-death-gem Tartarian Titans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif




Ten gems to cast the spell, about twenty more to get the right kind of titan, and sometimes twenty more to imbue said titan with reason. Repeat until the titan in question has the desired path combo. Then heal said titan's afflictions. The supercombatant tournmanet was pretty lenient in this regard; no one was expected to be cost-effective.

[OG_Gleep]

I watched the battles and it was interesting. But people were specced for the most part to combat 1:1 sc's. Troll kings aren't high end I, sorta grouped that in with the Elementals, but they can be pretty good thugs.

That would be fun to do over again with more emphisis on Combat.

[Oversway]

I think Troll Kings are good thugs. They come with high hp, regen, good attack score, and from earth magic you get some reinv and 30 protection (assuming you can cast invulnerability). Pretty easy to add a good weapon and flight and/or quickness and let them go.

Although, some of the time I use them for blade wind casters and troop buffers.

[shovah]

i find anything with decent build in regen (including highish hp n9 sacreds) can make a decent thug with relatively few/cheap add ons.

heres a new thug for you to try:
white centaur commander with f9 n9 bless
gloves of the gladiator
horned helmet
ring of regen
(and if you gain access to astral a pendant of luck)

i used this along with a few others loaded out the same and their leader was the same except: he was a prophet with heroic toughness (which rounded out at about 102 health and 22 regen per turn), red dragon armour and a amulet of reinvig. every single one of these guys has the ability to go berserk (one of the most important things for a team of thugs so they dont all rout), 5 high attack flaming attacks each, good defence, good health, good regen, good speed and with any decent armour (such as dragon armour) good health.

thier stealthyness makes them excellent raiders and except vrs high health/very high defence opponents they can all be expected to kill whatever is in the square they attack. they dont have any life drain but they make up for it with regen and killing power and ive yet to lose one in the sp testing im putting them through (playing vrs myself so i can chose exactly what i test them with) they seem to do well and they are pretty cheap (25 nature gems+80 gold for 1) and the prophetised uber thug (id still say hes below SC level) seems to be able to solo most early/mid game armies without fire resistance/anti sc (which isnt hard to avoid due to stealth) as can 2-3 of the regular variety.
they are pretty easy to churn out (especially if you can get mother oak) so all in all you have a fairly cheap thug who is hard to hit, gets mad (and harder to kill) when you hit him and has great killing potential
main downside ive found atm is the vunerability to crossbows or ulmish arbalests which actually makes ulm one of the harder nations for him to raid (next to jotunheim and aby)


ps: sorry for my bad habit of using too many brackets

edit: hurry up and have fun telling me all the flaws (i know many exist and i know you love to tell me)

[Oversway]

The main problem I have with most of your thug suggestions is I never live long enough to get the reasearch/gems/etc. to try them out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

However, this one seems good for early on. You just need const 4, right? What scales did you take to get f9n9?

[shovah]

const 4 until you want dragon armour (const 6) which i highly recomend (its 18 prot, -1 def, 1 enc and only 10 gems) i cant remember my scales but i took a slight dip in must with a rather big sloth dip (sloth 3 iirc)
if you can find sages with this set-up that is AMAZING because pans mages are so expensive (and it means you dont have to mass pan's just to get a lucky astral)
i suggest going for conj after const for lamia queens and tarrasques.

heres my favoured setup:
4x white centaur commander with:
gloves of the gladiator
horned helmet
green dragon scale armour (can use a lower level armour until this is reached)
lucky pendant
ring of regen
1x dyrad (prophetised if possible)

set the 4 centaurs at the flanks to attack archers with the dyrad spamming bless. the centaurs have survived everything ive tested them on (apart from aby/30+ arbalests) including lvl 20 ulm/jotun pd. they get 6 flaming attacks each (hoof, helmet and 4x gloves) 5 regen per turn when blessed, 23 or so health, 18 prot (21 when berserk) and 16-20 def (cant remember)
i considered giving them horror helms but i value killing the enemy more than gaining ground so the longer enemys stay the better (most of what they could scare they could kill so...)

the idea configuration that i posted costs 35 nature (25 without armour) 5 astral and 80 gold per centaur which sounds quite alot for a thug but i strongly suggest you try them (i am rather proud of my first practical thug)

and of course if you dont want to make a big team like i said you can always just do 1-2 centaurs roaming the enemy lands, picking off searchers/blood hunters and self buffing themselves (i prefer not to let them self buff because if some-one else buffs them they only recieve 2 turns of fire max if deployed forward)

edit: i forgot to check but pangea's units have high mr right? they seemed to be quite effective vrs the undead that tried to paralyze them

edit again: just took down a large BF ulm army that included: massed x-bows, a ton of paralyzing guys, and a 110 health, fire shielded (11 ap damage) astral shielded moloch (although that was probably due to the guy whos heroic strength left him with 4, high attack, flaming, strength 42 attacks per turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

[shovah]

Morkilus said:
My favorite (not saying it's the best) loadout for a thug under CB mods:

Banelord___15d
Dual Fire Bolas___10f
Hydra Skin Armor___10n
Sandals of the Crane___5s
Amulet of Resilience___10n
Luck Pendant___5s

55 gems total... you can throw a horror helm on if you like. He's better for supporting archers and mages than soloing, as the blink effect distracts pretty much everybody, and the fire shackles effect slows them down. High survivability.



just wondering how does this guy does in a competitive enviroment ?

[Morkilus]

Don't use it... a black servant with a rime hauberk is just as effective.

[Daynarr]

To be perfectly honest, I use fire bolas (or other ranged weapons) only on my commanders leading armies. Thugs and SC's I make tend to go up close and personal.

[shovah]

same here, but even just having the option to swap your banelord to this sort of setup when fighting something that could kill him up close

[Wish]

it works well for a unit that has pretty good starting weapons (like life drain or what have you) because fire bolas will not replace their original weapons.

[OG_Gleep]

Is there any other weapons that you guys like? I typically build the same weapons from game to game. QM recommended the Serpent Kryss, something I had always ignored. Wondering if theres any other weapons I missed out on.

[shovah]

i am currently in love with the gloves of the gladiator (whats so good about serpent kryss?) and sometimes i will resort to a sword of sharpness/stinger. a herald lance is always nice for taking out undead and swords of swiftness are quite good. for shields i like: charcoal shield (duh) vine shield (has its uses) lucky coin (when misc slots are full) and shield of gleaming gold is very effective vrs low morale things

on the topic of thugs/sc's ive actually found fire kings to be quite good (did they get booster in cb?) they have a very strong fire shield, good health, and AoE ap attack and iirc can have weapons without losing their flame strike. they have no protection but if you give them dragon armour, lucky coin/pendant of luck and a ring of regen they become monsters (hard to hurt with ranged weapons and any melee attackers are likely to get toasted)

edit: didnt notice the serpent kryss had 2 attacks now, that definetly makes it useful atleast. the 2 attacks combined with its death poison should make it easier to take out tough enemys atleast.
how about this: serpent kryss x2, any armour, boots of quickness, pendant of luck and cat charm.
the extra defence from the charm and the quickness should make you hard to hit (most high health things dont come in large numbers so you shouldnt face many attacks) and the 4 kryss attacks+ boots should be a deadly combo (i can see miamasa ctis making this) and you could always swap a misc out for an astral serpet if you want more death poison

[Daynarr]

I use Serpent Kryss on assassins. Actually, fully decked assassin can sometimes act as a thug. Can be risky due to their low HP though.

[shovah]

yea, some assasins more than others though (and the ever popular skull face/skele ammy+ boots of quickness can always back up said assasin)

[Saber Cherry]

I used to use fully decked Slayers as thugs, but they just die, even with a Lifelong Protection.

Proof that Assassins are not thugs:

0) Assume Assassins are thugs.
1) Regen is GREAT on living thugs.
2) Regen is not useful very unless the unit can survive taking damage a few times during a round of combat.
3) Units with less than about ceil(2d6) HP cannot take damage even once without a considerable risk of death.
4) Assassins have less than ceil(2d6) HP.
5) Therefore, regen is not very useful on Assassins.
6) This contradicts the original assumption, 0.

I'd be interested in hearing how you use them, though. I have found that even Black Servants, starting with 18 HP, ethereality, high MR, life-drain, and various immunities STILL can't be effective thugs. Maybe my definition of thug is too severe?

Edit: I also liked to use Werewolves as thugs, due to integral regen and decent stats. They always died too. I've had some success with Jotun Herses, though, using a Fire, Nature, or Water bless.

[Saber Cherry]

I'd like to mention that the original purpose of my combat simulator was to "rate thugs", by the way... I wanted to perfect Ice Devil SCs and Slayer loadouts to maximize their effectiveness. Otherwise, it was very hard to decide between (for example) an Amulet of Luck versus Bracers of Protection to fill the last free slot. It works quite well in that role, though it doesn't handle auras or buff spells, so you can't really evaluate the effectiveness of a Rime Hauberk, Unquenched Sword, or a particular spell script before charging.

[Wish]

normal assassins arent great for thugs, but succubi are

[shovah]

assasins arent the best thugs but they can do it. try wraith sword, robe of shadows, flying shoes, pendant of luck and ring of regen on an assasin. hes very hard to hit (only 25% of regular hits affect him and 50% of those are canceled by luck) if he can reach enemy archers hes usually okay and his stealthyness allows him to avoid most tough things (although i admit assasins arent great thugs)

[Daynarr]

Assassins I'd try to use for thugs are generally decked to get as high defense as possible and have as many attacks as possibe to take out weak troops fast. Also luck and wraith crown are important assets for him (undead to help him and etherealness). No regen/life stealing as he has such low hp that he dies if he gets hit anyway. The idea is not to get hit. Still, they really aren't great thugs.

[shovah]

yea, i was going to mention wraith crown but iirc its a high cost and better avoided on thugs. how about this:
gloves of the gladiator (4 attacks, 8 defence)
horror helmet (fear)
robe of shadows (ethereal)
boots of quickness (extra defence, attacks and movement)
lucky pendant (luck)
cat charm (extra defence)

or you could give it to a black servant and replace the robe with something more useful

[OG_Gleep]

Wouldn't any commander be a decent thug with all the equipment you guys listed? Whats the difference between an assasin used as a thug and a indie commander with that equip setup? The weapon takes away the assasins poison, or lifedrain (depending on what your using as a chassis), and the robe of shadows grants etheral, which puts in on par with some assasins. Only difference is stealth, which if he's being used as a thug...your not going to be needing that much.

[quantum_mechani]

OG_Gleep said:
. Only difference is stealth, which if he's being used as a thug...your not going to be needing that much.

Heh, I love stealth on a thug, particularly if they don't have flying.

EDIT: And I have certainly seen/built black servants that more than qualify as thugs.

[OG_Gleep]

Yeah wish used a few of those guys configured:

Charcol Shield
Horror Helm
Rime (mostly)
Flying shoes
Luck
Lycos Amulet

That messed me up. Life Drain, Eth, Luck and Fire defense kept him alive vs Blessed troops, and normal troops couldn't touch it.

[Daynarr]

OG_Gleep said:
Wouldn't any commander be a decent thug with all the equipment you guys listed? Whats the difference between an assasin used as a thug and a indie commander with that equip setup? The weapon takes away the assasins poison, or lifedrain (depending on what your using as a chassis), and the robe of shadows grants etheral, which puts in on par with some assasins. Only difference is stealth, which if he's being used as a thug...your not going to be needing that much.



They start with better Attack and Defense values. Stealth is bonus too - it allows you to pick some weak provinces that they can take behind enemy lines and then dissapear again.

[Saber Cherry]

Unless I go Wraith Sword, I always give thugs a shield. Then they can invade xbow provinces (or Ulmish PD) without getting smoked prematurely.

[Wish]

the difference is an assassin has the ability to apply thughood to one commander and up to 10 bodyguards (with a ring of warning) and thats it.

that doesn't make them a thug, but it does make them an exceptional assassin. I guess it is more logical to deck out assassins as SC killers, rather than as thugs. More survavibility, and someway to kill them quick. alternatively, a way to kill them, and summoning items to distract them. (wraith crown works pretty well for this, although it is expensive)

[shovah]

Saber Cherry said:
Unless I go Wraith Sword, I always give thugs a shield. Then they can invade xbow provinces (or Ulmish PD) without getting smoked prematurely.



i tended to give them shields too but flying works just as well and luck+ethereal is good too (although flying/luck+ethereal+ a shield is better)

[shovah]

Saber Cherry said:
Unless I go Wraith Sword, I always give thugs a shield. Then they can invade xbow provinces (or Ulmish PD) without getting smoked prematurely.



i tended to give them shields too but flying works just as well and luck+ethereal is good too (although flying/luck+ethereal+ a shield is better)

[Saber Cherry]

shovah said:
gloves of the gladiator (4 attacks, 8 defence)



When I read that, I quickly loaded up my 'research' game and looked at Gloves of the Gladiator, and...

Sure enough, they're only 3 damage, 1 attack, 1 defense. Where are you getting 8 from? If they were 8 defense I might use them now and then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Saber Cherry said:

Sure enough, they're only 3 damage, 1 attack, 1 defense. Where are you getting 8 from?

From the CB mod.

[shovah]

yea, the cb mod makes them worth it (before they were just trash)

[Valandil]

What's the highest a stat can be?
I have a Doom horror prophet with power wish, 11 in all paths, regen, fully buffed, with a W9 F9 (Tien Chi...) bless. (don't ask why)

It has 50+ in all stats.
How high can they go.

(error. only 30 protection. my mistake)

[Saber Cherry]

Protection only goes to 40. Size only goes to 6. Morale only goes to 30 for mindful units. Strat move is maxxed at 12 for Vastness, IIRC. I think the others are unlimited, though it's hard to get magic resistance very high. There are also special stats, like reinvigoration, quickness, regeneration, fire shield, fear, awe, leadership, and so forth; I've gotten +302% quickness (after magical quickness multiplies in, it becomes 8 turns per round) and I think I remember making a mid-30's Fear POD once. Making a unit a prophet in a very high dominion area can sometimes give you that last bit of "oomph" for breaking a new stat record http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Turin]

The easiest way to get some ridicolous stats is to set up a game with 8 human nations and set the hall of fame size to 15. Then have it autohost every minute and check back later on turn 700+ to see starting scouts with heroic fear +60 and other such silly things.

[shovah]

yea, ive seen an ulmish spy with around +43 awe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Alneyan]

Saber Cherry said:
Strat move is maxxed at 12 for Vastness, IIRC.



A mere 10 actually. They aren't *that* much faster than light cavalry I guess.

[shovah]

10 strat move vastnesses rock, in one (extremely long) game i had 5 of them being led by a Prophetised Gift of Reasoned vastness to test various sc's of mine againbst