Dominions 3 News!

[Annette]

News Release For Immediate Release


The Awakening Is Nigh!
Dominions 3: The Awakening Unshackles From Its Immortal Slumber!


Cary, NC, 23 March 2006

Lo, mortals, the time is almost upon you! Prepare thyself, for the supreme battle of the
cosmos is once more at hand! The sequel to the smash fantasy 4X strategy title,
Dominions 2: The Ascension Wars, is coming! So stock up on the caffeinated
beverages, get yourself a comfortable chair, and break all social ties! Let not sleep, a
sore backside, or annoying friends and family come between you and total godhood!
Awaken your god! Destroy the infidels! Reign supreme! Muu-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

Shrapnel Games is pleased to announce that Dominions 3: The Awakening, the next
exciting chapter in the Dominions saga, is now available for pre-order and is projecyed to
go Gold in June. Developed by Sweden-based Illwinter Game Design, Dominions 3:
The Awakening is a multi-OS turn-based fantasy 4X strategy game that will come to
dominate your gaming life. Gaming life? Just make that life in general!

Officially announced in October 2004 and recently hailed in Computer Games Magazine
as one of the most anticipated titles of 2006, Dominions 3: The Awakening will be
available for Windows, Mac, and Linux systems and features the robust gameplay that
strategy gamers around the world have craved in the Dominions series. The wizards at
Illwinter Game Design have been hard at work listening to the fanbase and Dominions 3:
The Awakening is poised to be the ultimate Dominions.

Gamers can expect the ability to play with up to twenty-one players in a single game,
either controlled by the tough AI or other carbon-based lifeforms. Gameplay, though as
feature-rich as ever, has been streamlined to make the game more accessible. There is a
lot less micromanagement to worry about, allowing players to spend more time enjoying
the best aspects of being a conquering nation (like taking blood slaves, and destroying
your enemies) instead of the mundane world of tax assessment. A comprehensive
manual written by veteran computer game scribe Bruce Geryk will also ease players into
the third installment.

Dominions 3: The Awakening boasts three ages to play in and fifty different nations.
Some are brand new, others have been revised from earlier games. Some of these new
nations include:

Marverni: Inspired by the Gallic tribes described by Caesar, Maeverni is a semi-civilized
nation consisting of several tribes sharing common traits. Vergobrets, their village
magistrates serve as priests for their armies, and the Marverni druids are looked upon to
show the way for the tribes.

Patala: Inspired by Indian and Hindu myths, it is a nation of apes ruled by serpent
creatures called nagas. A strict hierarchical caste system governs the apes, while the
nagas oversees all. The nagas are divine beings from the nether realm of Patala, where
all rivers spring.

Jomon: Ancient Japan influences this nation. Enslaved by the evil bakemono, the
humans of Jomon rebelled and cast off their yokes of bondage. A feudal society
emerged, organized around daimyos and their band of warriors. Warfare is now a very
ritualized affair.

Right now you can pre-order what will be one of the most talked about games of 2006 for
the discounted price of $47.50 at the Shrapnel Games e-store, the Gamers Front. The
Gamers Front (www.gamersfront.com/xcart/home.php) is the only place you can pre-
order Dominions 3: The Awakening and be guaranteed to be one of the first people on
your block to get it when it ships. Be sure to take advantage of the pre-order price soon,
because after May 20, 2006, the price will be $54.95.

For more information on Dominions 3: The Awakening, or any of our other award-
winning lineup of titles, please visit us at www.shrapnelgames.com. (http://www.shrapnelgames.com.) Shrapnel Games is
also the best place to get news, download demos, or hear about updates concerning all
your favorite Shrapnel titles.

About the Companies

Illwinter Game Design is based in Sweden, specifically the southern towns of Malm and
Lund. Formed many years ago with the intent to create massive fantasy turn-based
strategy games Illwinter consists of Johan Karlsson and Kristoffer Osterman. By trade
Johan is a computer engineer and Kristoffer is a teacher of religion and social studies.
Johan Osterman and Daniel Serra also help contribute.

Illwinter Game Design's previous titles include Conquest of Elysium I and II, and of
course the Dominions series. All of these games share the bond of fantasy turn-based
gaming with more creatures and features stuffed into them than usually allowed by law.
Inspiration comes from many different sources, such as the various Rogue games (more
stuff = more goodness), Masters of Magic (turn-based fantasy), VGA Planets (PBEM is
fun), and pen-and-paper RPGs.

Shrapnel Games began life online located in Cary, North Carolina but recently moved to
Hampstead, North Carolina. Founded in 1999 by industry veteran Timothy W. Brooks
(designer of the turn-based tactical simulation, 101st: The Airborne Invasion of
Normandy, among other titles) Shrapnel Games has been providing gamers with the very
best independent strategy and consim titles, many of which are award-winning.

Recently released titles include Weird Worlds: Return to Infinite Space, Land of Legends,
The Star and the Crescent, and Horse and Musket 2: Prussia's Glory. From outer space
to fantasy realms to sailing the high seas in the Age of Sail, the Shrapnel Games catalog
is full of unique titles that will please discriminating gamers of all tastes.

For press related information please contact Scott R. Krol at: skrol@shrapnelgames.com

To visit our company blog go to www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/ (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/)

For all other information, please contact:

Timothy W. Brooks
PO Box 488
Hampstead, NC 27523
910-270-9891
tbrooks@shrapnelgames.com

[Nerfix]

I'm squeeing and spasming here, people. The game looks awesome, awesome, AWESOME! Some of the features sound sooooo tasty! I...I have hard time expressing myself.

When will we get a demo?

[Annette]

Nerfix said:
When will we get a demo?



I don't have a date for that yet, sorry! It will be closer to the gold release, when testing is nearer completion.

[Nerfix]

Annette said:

Nerfix said:
When will we get a demo?



I don't have a date for that yet, sorry! It will be closer to the gold release, when testing is nearer completion.

Ah well, good things are worth waiting for.

Meanwhile I will try to convince my parents to loan me their credit card by appealing that I'm such a good boy who rarely asks for anything (it's true!), though they are sorta paranoid about ordering stuff online. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Mindi]

BTW everyone, there is a new forum for Dominions 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Oversway]

Where is it? I did not see it from the main list? Perhaps the permissions are not set correctly?

[Mindi]

It's right under the Dominions 2 main forum. Here's a link http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=dom3

[Oversway]

Thanks! I was looking at

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=&C=9

(which I get from clicking the "Illwinter game design" breadcrumb at the top of this page and it does not show up there.

Edit: oh probably because I didn't have it on as a "favorite forum". Now that I do, it shows up.

[Crazy]

"projecyed to go Gold in June"

Does this mean that this is when it is finally released?

I will pre-order right away but when will it arrive?

[OG_Gleep]

Is anyone not excited about the dark backgrounds for the gui? I really liked the old beige/tan color.

[Jurri]

Considering that you can change the GUI background already in Dom2 via a simple mod, I'd be quite surprised if you couldn't modify the interface in Dom3.

[Nerfix]

OG_Gleep said:
Is anyone not excited about the dark backgrounds for the gui? I really liked the old beige/tan color.


I'm excited of it. Reminds me of Dom I.

[WraithLord]

Nerfix said:

OG_Gleep said:
Is anyone not excited about the dark backgrounds for the gui? I really liked the old beige/tan color.


I'm excited of it. Reminds me of Dom I.

I agree, and I too like it better.

[Annette]

Crazy said:
"projecyed to go Gold in June"

Does this mean that this is when it is finally released?

I will pre-order right away but when will it arrive?



"Projected to go Gold in June" refers to when Illwinter estimate it will have the final game ("gold version") delivered to us to go into production. Once we have "gold", we'll release an estimated ship date. Usually we need about a month between receiving the final game and having the manuals printed, CD's burned and ready to ship from our fulfillment center.

[DominionsFan]

Awesome news!!!! Btw after maj 20 the game will cost 54$?!?!?!? EVEN TES4: Oblivion is cheaper!!!!! WHAT THE! O.O

[shovah]

how much is oblivion in $? i ordered it from the good old (wet, windy miserable ect) uk

[Morkilus]

I don't know about you guys... but as far as value is concerned, Dom2's only rival is MOO2 in terms of value, and I got that for five bucks several years after release. Sticker shock won't affect my opinion, I just hope there's a good demo to get people hooked, because it won't be an easy impulse buy.

[Annette]

DominionsFAN said:
Awesome news!!!! Btw after maj 20 the game will cost 54$?!?!?!? EVEN TES4: Oblivion is cheaper!!!!! WHAT THE! O.O


Dominions 3 will ship on CD with a 200 page printed manual. I saw Oblivion for $49.95 as a download?
Edit: Shipping is free in the continental US.

[Mindi]

I'll add to Annette's post that we are giving a $7.50 discount on this title during the pre-order period instead of our usual $5.00, so this isn't really a big difference at all over the previous game. In addition, the previous game manual was only 134 pages, so this manual is a significan increase in pages.

[Oversway]

$54 (-7.50) isn't a bad value, assuming its on par with dom2.

[Boron]

$54 is imho hard to explain as price for Dominions 3.
As Dominionsfan said even Oblivion costs only 45$ at Amazon.com and Oblivion was really hyped.
And you don't have to pay shipping with Amazon.com, i guess i have to pay another 5$ or so shipping fees.

Since i am such a huge fan of Dominions 2 i will buy Dominions 3 nontheless but i doubt that this huge price will give Dominions 3 many new fans. Probably only the die-hard fans like me will buy it. I wouldn't be surprised if the community even decreases instead of increasing, as it should be.

[archaeolept]

pfff

[Agrajag]

As long as it doesn't cost insane amounts of money to ship to Israel (like most US delivers cost :\), I'll probably buy it.
Otherwise I'll just have to wait for either prices to drop or some of the independant Israeli importers to get it. Or I'll just convince my friends to buy it, and play at their house and just wait for a year and buy their copy from them =P.
How much does shipping to Israel cost anyway?

[WraithLord]

Agrajag said:
As long as it doesn't cost insane amounts of money to ship to Israel (like most US delivers cost :\), I'll probably buy it.
Otherwise I'll just have to wait for either prices to drop or some of the independant Israeli importers to get it. Or I'll just convince my friends to buy it, and play at their house and just wait for a year and buy their copy from them =P.
How much does shipping to Israel cost anyway?

I have ordered it to be shipped to Israel and the shipping cost is $8.45.

For me the price is ok because of the printed manual and replay value. Also I think it will be nice if shrapnel will at some time make a collectors edition of dominions with all the dominions titles, fan made stuff and other goodies.

[Annette]

Agrajag said:
As long as it doesn't cost insane amounts of money to ship to Israel (like most US delivers cost :\), I'll probably buy it.
Otherwise I'll just have to wait for either prices to drop or some of the independant Israeli importers to get it. Or I'll just convince my friends to buy it, and play at their house and just wait for a year and buy their copy from them =P.
How much does shipping to Israel cost anyway?



I just took a look at our shipping options to Israel. We offer two; the least expensive is USPS Global Priority Mail for $5.00.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dnt think I will bother comparing Dom3 price to games that MIGHT last a month at most on my machine (like Oblivon). Also Im not sure that asking any company to compare their prises to the types of places that have their own factory cranking something out in bulk ever works anyway. I see it tried alot, I just dont think Ive ever seen it work.

[Agrajag]

Annette said:

Agrajag said:
As long as it doesn't cost insane amounts of money to ship to Israel (like most US delivers cost :\), I'll probably buy it.
Otherwise I'll just have to wait for either prices to drop or some of the independant Israeli importers to get it. Or I'll just convince my friends to buy it, and play at their house and just wait for a year and buy their copy from them =P.
How much does shipping to Israel cost anyway?



I just took a look at our shipping options to Israel. We offer two; the least expensive is USPS Global Priority Mail for $5.00.


Ohh, cool, thanks for the information. Its a decent price.
If I preorder, the 7.5$ will cover the 5$ for shipment =P
I remember once trying to order a game (can't remember which :\) from the USA and the cheapest shipping option was ~30$ for a game that costs ~30$, so you can see why this is can be an issue.
*wanders off to raise some funds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif*

[PrinzMegaherz]

Gandalf Parker said:
I dnt think I will bother comparing Dom3 price to games that MIGHT last a month at most on my machine (like Oblivon). Also Im not sure that asking any company to compare their prises to the types of places that have their own factory cranking something out in bulk ever works anyway. I see it tried alot, I just dont think Ive ever seen it work.



Anyway, aside from the established fanbase, noone else will buy a game with "cheap" graphics for that much money. And all those fans (including me) will preorder, so in the end noone is going to pay the whole price.

[Alneyan]

I frankly would be surprised if a mundane player found 50$ to be a bargain for Dominions. A few more bucks does not seem that likely to make a difference for the non-convinced player: 50 bucks is still as expensive (if not more so) than a retail game with their shiney graphics, so the comparison is never going to turn out to Shrapnel's favour.

Then again, perhaps I'm biased. I bought Dom II for roughly 60 euros, with a fast delivery and no hassle, and found the price fair enough. Games here are (or were? Been a while since I last purchased anything in retail) more expensive than either Dom II or Dom III (through Shrapnel). Or perhaps it is because there were also complaints about the pricetag for Dom II a couple years ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Of course, I'm not saying it is good news, but I'm more concerned about the "why" than the end result. Somehow, I doubt Shrapnel has raised the pricetag so that Tim can buy his third mansion in California. I'd trust Shrapnel that something is not looking quite so well in the Book of Scribbled Figures of Doom (the accounting department, and the dust therein), hence making the price increase necessary.

[B0rsuk]

Sounds like you never heard about Linley's Dungeon Crawl
http://dungeoncrawl.org/

Most computer 'RPG' games tend to look primitive when compared to typical roguelike game (A.D.O.M., Nethack, I suppose I also have to mention Angband but I'd rather not)

[DominionsFan]

Gandalf Parker said:
I dnt think I will bother comparing Dom3 price to games that MIGHT last a month at most on my machine (like Oblivon). Also Im not sure that asking any company to compare their prises to the types of places that have their own factory cranking something out in bulk ever works anyway. I see it tried alot, I just dont think Ive ever seen it work.



I understand what you say Gandalf, but this is not true generally. Here is our example oblivion. Even if you completed the main storyline and the hundreds of side quests, there is still a huge potential in the game. You can make mods, even own "campaign" if you are good enough, or if you want to do that. I remeber that Morrowind was on my comp for 1+ year, and I played it all week. Other examples? There are countless of games, what the people are playing for years even, and I doubt that any of those went above 50$ or euro.

Anyways, I already preordered my copy of the game of course, I would even buy doms 3 for 100 euro. :-) .. my post regarding doms 3 price was not about myself, but it might scare away many people.

[NTJedi]

Well the key will be getting them to try to the DOM_3 demo... I recommend the demo lasting 55 turns instead of 40 as before. Once they recognize the content and depth of the game they'll be convinced to buy the game which has a slightly higher price then other games.

[Alneyan]

B0rsuk said:
Sounds like you never heard about Linley's Dungeon Crawl
http://dungeoncrawl.org/




Careful with the "Reply" fields! It looked as though you were replying to me, while it was probably not the case (DominionsFAN was probably the one you replied to). Don't dare say I never heard about roguelikes, or else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Nerfix]

My only problem with the price is that the I'm not sure if I have any way to pay it.

The closest credit card to me is owned by my paranoid mom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Annette]

Alneyan said:
Of course, I'm not saying it is good news, but I'm more concerned about the "why" than the end result. Somehow, I doubt Shrapnel has raised the pricetag so that Tim can buy his third mansion in California. I'd trust Shrapnel that something is not looking quite so well in the Book of Scribbled Figures of Doom (the accounting department, and the dust therein), hence making the price increase necessary.



Still working on that first mansion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The only reason for the $5 bump is because of the increase in production costs. Remember, we're going from a 134 page manual to a 200 page manual. And everyone is working very hard to be sure it will be worth every penny!

[alexti]

DominionsFAN said:
Awesome news!!!! Btw after maj 20 the game will cost 54$?!?!?!? EVEN TES4: Oblivion is cheaper!!!!! WHAT THE! O.O


If Dom3 is as good as Dom2 54$ is a steal. Even if I don't like Dom3 at all, I will just count these 54$ into "Dom2 expenses" and still think that at $100+ Dom2 was a bargain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Not if it's worthwhile to compare Dom3 with Oblivion. Oblivion has to compete with bunch of other RPGs (admittedly, there wasn't good RPG in a while) and attract plenty of casual buyers. Dom3 has no competition (AFAIK) in its niche.

[Ironhawk]

Alneyan said:
I frankly would be surprised if a mundane player found 50$ to be a bargain for Dominions. A few more bucks does not seem that likely to make a difference for the non-convinced player: 50 bucks is still as expensive (if not more so) than a retail game with their shiney graphics, so the comparison is never going to turn out to Shrapnel's favour.



I agree. While I am sure that a great deal of effort went into Dom3 I feel that $50 is a bit much to ask for what is effectively an indy game. Normally they come with an easier pricetag given that they dont have huge publishing and marketing budgets or cutting edge graphics.

[Graeme Dice]

Ironhawk said:
Normally they come with an easier pricetag given that they dont have huge publishing and marketing budgets or cutting edge graphics.



Actually, I think you'll find that Indy games are almost always more expensive, unless they are extremely simple. I mean, take a look at Spiderweb Software's catalog. They are still charging full game prices for their very first products. Or look at some of the stuff from Matrix, which is also extremely expensive, and doesn't even come with a demo. Niche products are always more expensive, because you don't gain many sales by dropping the price compared to the lost income from dropping the price.

[Saber Cherry]

Unfortunately, you have to consider indy games as "custom". Consider the price differential between a home-made berry pie and the equivalent from a grocery store. One is priceless, and the other (IMO) is garbage. You can step down a notch, and go to a many-star restaurant for pie... where you'll pay way more for the same thing than at a grocery store, and it will be substantially better.

Any place has a similar cost for ingredients (although the cheaper the pie, the cheaper and crappier the ingredients... they still aren't the primary expense). But expensive (and priceless) pies have a much lower capital investment in production facilities. In the generic case, there is a strict inverse relation between the capital investment in a food product, and its quality.

Personally, I never, ever buy pie, and only eat it when I make it, or my dad makes it. Much like Adam and/or Eve, having tasted the fruit of wisdom, I cannot go back - though I know I would be happier without my new knowledge, as I would be satisfied with anything. But I am a busy person, and I don't have time to make pie... so, I go without.

It is therefore a blessing that some industries - primarily books and software, but also produce, peanut butter, bread, electricity, water, radio, and so forth allow consumers to pay more for low-volume, high-quality items.

At an organic food store, one can buy apples, pears, kiwis, peaches, and many other goods at a higher price than at a conventional store... for stuff that clearly looks worse. Sometimes I buy it, and sometimes I don't. Often it is incomparable (most peaches I eat taste like ****, and most walnuts are old or even rancid, and I'd pay at least triple for good versions of either). I don't have the time or space to grow my own peaches, and I'm thankful that the people who do - and are willing to sacrifice 30% of their yield to forego ethene treatments (the "fruit ripener" that kills chlorophyll, and is responsible for rock-hard strawberries and apple-like tomatoes that dominate the US market) and pesticide sprays - will sell their products on the open market, rather than caving to "industry knowledge".

At a real bakery, they sell real bread, made from ground wheat kernels, salt, water, and usually yeast and sugar/honey/molasses. Most people find this stuff nasty; I love it, and find bleached ultra-fine white flour "Wonderbread" inedible. Normal factory bakeries somehow turn pure **** into a white, fluffy, rectangular solid, and legally market it as "bread", while supermarket and standalone bakeries produce the exact same crap and sell it at a premium, because it is "free-form" or "loaf-shaped". Again, I rarely have the time or will to make bread... so I am very thankful that in the last 5 years, a niche market has arisen to provide real bread to people who know what bread is. Is $5 for a 20-slice loaf that only lasts a week before getting moldy too much, compared to $2 for 50 slices of Wonderbread that will last until Doomsday? No... because the real bread tastes like bliss, and contains actual nutrients, while the Rainbow **** gives you colon cancer and diabetes - and tastes like ***. Not to mention that the loaf of bread weighs 2 lbs (.9kg) while the loaf of imitation bread weighs 1.5 lbs (.68 kg), despite being double the volume.

I could go through all the examples. But at the end of the day, it's personal choice. Most people prefer to use coal power, Wonderbread, rock-hard strawberries, canned/frozen orange juice, LCD monitors, tapwater, console games, television, and fast-food chains. If you are in the minority that believes the alternatives to be superior, regardless of their disadvantages, accept that they will cost more - that's how an efficient (and/or free market) economy works. You should be happy that there is a reasonable price you can pay to get what you want, instead of the popular alternative... in many areas, there is no price - let alone a reasonable one - that will allow you to purchase a superior alternative, simply because most people like the crap they're told to like.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Annette said:

Alneyan said:
Of course, I'm not saying it is good news, but I'm more concerned about the "why" than the end result. Somehow, I doubt Shrapnel has raised the pricetag so that Tim can buy his third mansion in California. I'd trust Shrapnel that something is not looking quite so well in the Book of Scribbled Figures of Doom (the accounting department, and the dust therein), hence making the price increase necessary.



Still working on that first mansion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The only reason for the $5 bump is because of the increase in production costs. Remember, we're going from a 134 page manual to a 200 page manual. And everyone is working very hard to be sure it will be worth every penny!



If the manual is as helpful as the manual of Dom2, you should just drop it, save the money, lower the price and include a good tutorial / launch a Dominions 3 wikipedia as Stardock is doing for GC2. Maybe you could offer a cheaper download only version, saving people the shipping cost.

[Endoperez]

PrinzMegaherz said:

Annette said:
Still working on that first mansion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The only reason for the $5 bump is because of the increase in production costs. Remember, we're going from a 134 page manual to a 200 page manual. And everyone is working very hard to be sure it will be worth every penny!



If the manual is as helpful as the manual of Dom2, you should just drop it, save the money, lower the price and include a good tutorial / launch a Dominions 3 wikipedia as Stardock is doing for GC2. Maybe you could offer a cheaper download only version, saving people the shipping cost.



They are adding 60 pages. If they leave out the things we had in DomII, that's a 200 page manual, not for listing in-game stuff, but for telling how to play the game. With 60 nations, that would be 3 pages of strategy/tactics for each one, and 20 pages for the general mechanics... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

I DON'T believe they'll do that radical change, though. I think the 70 extra pages are going to be in addition to the item/spell lists. As I doubt there are enough new items and spells to last for 70 pages, most of that will have to be something else. What else? Explanation of game mechanics can't take that much, maybe 50 pages, at maximum. Currently, they take 30 pages, so there'd still be about 50 pages left for non-mechanics, non-spell-list, non-item-list stuff. That is probably this part:
"A comprehensive manual written by veteran computer game scribe Bruce Geryk will also ease players into the third installment."
I don't really know who he is, but Google tells me that he has done some kind of Dom2 tutorial already. It's a .pdf in Shrapnel Games' DomII downloads page, so I have probably went through it, but I don't remember what it actually says. If you are worried, read through that and see if 50 pages of that would be worth the 5$.

I find this whole price discussion absurd, BTW. If we are waiting for a game this much, we are going to buy it. Of course, we would be much happier to pay only half price for it, but that wouldn't make us buy two of them. Shrapnel Games knows we are hooked, and won't let us just get away with less. They also know what they are doing. Their blog covered this over a year ago.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/2005/02/24/why-traditional-retail-and-niche-games-dont-work/

[Agrajag]

Isn't Bruce Geryk a writer for Computer Gaming World?
If I'm not mistaken he's also the one that reviewed Dom2 and fell in love with it.

[Tyrian]

Can you tell me the cost of shipping for France, please?

[Ironhawk]

Endoperez said:
If the manual is as helpful as the manual of Dom2, you should just drop it, save the money, lower the price and include a good tutorial / launch a Dominions 3 wikipedia as Stardock is doing for GC2. Maybe you could offer a cheaper download only version, saving people the shipping cost.



Yeah I'm with ya. I looked at the dom2 manual once and then never again. All the pages devoted to spells and items I never even bothered to look at. 1) it's easier to do that in-game and 2) its more accurate (espeically when you consider modding). In fact I think I would actually prefer an online manual/wikipedia to a physical manual that will just gather dust on my desk.


I find this whole price discussion absurd, BTW. If we are waiting for a game this much, we are going to buy it.



That was never the point I was arguing. Clearly all the hardcore dom2 people like ourselves are going to buy the game unless the price is astronomical. I believe that the point being made was that the pricetag is too high to grant additional incentive to new players to purchase the game and thus increase the player-base.

[Annette]

Tyrian said:
Can you tell me the cost of shipping for France, please?


I see two options at our store for shipping to France. The least expensive is USPS Global Priority Mail for $5.00. If anyone would like a shipping quote, you may go to www.GamersFront.com (http://www.GamersFront.com), add the game to your shopping cart and go through the checkout process until you come to the page for selecting your shipping options. At that point, you may clear out of the store without making a purchase.

[OG_Gleep]

Only games in recent memory that gave me pause about the price are Guitar Hero ($80) and Steel Battalion ($125?). I ended up eventually buying both....funny thing is I hardly played the most expensive game I have ever bought.

Games regardless are still going to be the best value as far as entertainment goes. As long as its not out of the "norm", price never factors into it for me.

Just because we know the situation of the developer, and the publisher is a small company, doesn't mean they shouldn't get a premium for their product. You would be pretty shocked at the actual cost of the items you put in your shopping cart. I'll never buy Jewlery retail...ever. $60 is pretty much the ceiling for games today, the average being $49. Dunno it seems pretty silly to miss out on Dom III because they won't charge less then EA.

Nerfix....that must be by choice, if they want to give my 2 year old a credit card...it can't be that hard. Hell they issue credit card to dead people.

*edit* hate it when I accidently hit send.

[Jurri]

Saber Cherry said:
I could go through all the examples. But at the end of the day, it's personal choice. Most people prefer to use coal power, Wonderbread, rock-hard strawberries, canned/frozen orange juice, LCD monitors, tapwater, console games, television, and fast-food chains. If you are in the minority that believes the alternatives to be superior, regardless of their disadvantages, accept that they will cost more - that's how an efficient (and/or free market) economy works.

What's wrong with tapwater? Bottled water is a strain to the nature, requiring transportation over long distances via ecologically inefficient means and producing plastic waste in the form of discarded bottles. Additionally, I understand a large minority of bottled water is actually tapwater in bottles (something like 40% if memory serves).

In many places the quality of tapwater is more regulated than is the quality of bottled water, if you're worried about contaminants. Of course there are also areas that lack regulations or follow them laxly, so I don't think generalizations apply to either side of the argument: for some the use of bottled water is the only viable choice, whereas for others it's only rational to use tapwater. Easy for me to say, seeing how great the quality of tapwater is in most of Finland. It could be that I've been told to 'like the crap' but then again your preference of alternatives over tapwater might quite as well spring from someone telling you that it's better. Not knowing what the tapwater is like in Crystal Tokyo, I'd better not hazard a guess.

Of course, if the alternative isn't bottled water but a natural spring nearby (like I have where I go for Summer) it's all cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Other things in your little rant I have to agree with, although admittedly many higher-quality alternatives for common things aren't ecologically as effective as the lesser-quality alternative. Like LCD-monitors: they use less energy compared to a CRT of same screen-size (1/2 to 1/3 unless I'm mistaken) and when discarded are far easier to dispose of since they contain less ecologically harmful materials. Of course, LCD-monitors are also more expensive than CRTs (which might indicate a larger ecological strain in the production process: I don't really know), so maybe you've got some other alternative that you prefer over either?

[Endoperez]

Ironhawk said:

Endoperez said:
If the manual is as helpful as the manual of Dom2, you should just drop it, save the money, lower the price and include a good tutorial / launch a Dominions 3 wikipedia as Stardock is doing for GC2. Maybe you could offer a cheaper download only version, saving people the shipping cost.






Actually, that was Prince Megahertz who said that. I argued against him. The comment on the absurdity of this discussion was mine, though.

[Agrajag]

On the subject of the manual; I like manuals that have a lot of flavour and fluff in them, like the StarCraft manual that featured long background stories for the three races. (long compared to every other manual)
Or the IWD manual with "tips" from an "experienced adventurer", which were quite humourus and thematic.
If the planned manual is that kind of manual, than I especially don't mind paying extra for it.

As for LCD VS CRT...
I know this isn't exactly what the "arguement" is about, but I think CRT monitors are far better than LCD monitors:
1) CRT monitors support many resolutions, much higher than LCD monitors, and they support them all just as well.
LCD monitors support only a few resolutions (usually not more than the common resolutions between 800*600 and 1280*1024), and only really support one resolution (their native resolution, most commonly 1280*1024), and other resolution look really bad.
2) CRT monitors cost less than LCD monitors. Atleast in here, a good LCD monitor costs 50% more than a good CRT monitor.
3) I didn't see it in my own eyes, but I heard that LCD monitors tend to produce "smears" and "smudges" in games, especially fast paced and intensive FPS games.
4) CRT monitors don't have the problem of "burnt pixels", which I've heard tend to appear quite commonly in LCD monitors.
5) CRT monitors are just as easy to view from any angle, if you try to look at an LCD monitor from a wide enough angle, things tend to look darker, in strange colors or you get to see reflections (say from the window).

[Jurri]

Yeah, that's exactly the point being made: LCD monitors are crappy. However, CRTs might incur a greater ecological cost for reasons listed above, so there could be a reason for using an inferior product over the better one. (Again, I'm not familiar with the production methods of either, I only know of power usage and recycling considerations.) Of course, Cherry's list was of things that have better alternatives for higher price, so maybe it's a poor example to use the one thing on the list that doesn't comform. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Well, upon reflection this is way OT, but I like tapwater so much that I couldn't not comment! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A paper manual is not a good solution in my opinion and I'm rather saddened to see it used as a reason to have high prices. Also, it's an ecological stress to print paper manuals: small one, I know, but for something that has no value even that is too much. You already need a computer to play the game, so not having the manual on the cd or on the net (a wiki is an awesome solution: minimal production costs!) is something of a missed opportunity, in my opinion. You can't do word-searches or hyper-linked indexes on paper so unless you have a preference to read from paper instead of glass an electric format is superior in every way. Of course, most do have such a preference, but I'd still like to see an alternative offered for those not so inclined. Like selling the manual separately instead of being forced to buy one when you buy the game. There's nothing stopping one from printing a document if it's useful either, so all parties could be satisfied without a paper manual, too.

[Cainehill]

Eh - LCDs definately have their advantages over CRTs too. For example : it's been a _long_ time since I saw a CRT type monitor that had portrait orientation. (As I recall it was part of an expensive Wang word processing hardware suite, not even a general purpose computer.) Whereas my LCD I can swivel 90 degrees, giving a choice of landscape (for gaming) and portrait (for editing source code, working on documents, browsing the web). I do also have a CRT hooked up next to the LCD, but when it dies I'll probably get another LCD.

As far as the paper manual goes : I hate games that don't provide a printed manual. (It's a little different when you purchase the jewel case version for $10.) Sure, I have dual monitors, so I can sometimes look at the manual on one monitor and the game in the other : but then again, a lot of full screen games don't like dual screens. They crash when you try to go to the other monitor, or at best, hang while they don't have focus. And if you _don't_ have dual monitor displays, it's a real PITA trying to play and look at the electronic format manual.

And it sucks trying to print the manuals, usually using more paper than a preprinted manual would, resulting in a pile of paper that isn't nearly as convenient as a book-style manual, especially as most people's home printers don't have duplex ability (to automatically print on both sides of the paper, collating pages, etc).

[Agrajag]

Cainehill said:

Eh - LCDs definately have their advantages over CRTs too. For example : it's been a _long_ time since I saw a CRT type monitor that had portrait orientation. (As I recall it was part of an expensive Wang word processing hardware suite, not even a general purpose computer.) Whereas my LCD I can swivel 90 degrees, giving a choice of landscape (for gaming) and portrait (for editing source code, working on documents, browsing the web). I do also have a CRT hooked up next to the LCD, but when it dies I'll probably get another LCD.


I'm note sure I understand what you mean here, do you mean "flipping" the monitor on its side so that it will be like a paper page?
If you do, I don't see how that would help me. Its just as easy reading "normally", especially if you are reading from a website (rather than a document), since the website interface usually takes up horizontal space.
And you could flip a CRT monitor on its side, it will be pretty crude, but you can put it on its side, and flipping the display is very simple (just get the latest Nvidia drivers).

And as for paper manual VS electronic manual;
Both options aren't very good, you can't read the electronic manual while playing the game, and you can't easily search through a paper manual (what would I do without CTRL+F?!), and you also can't read the electronic one while not on the computer (say... You want to read the manual on the bus, or on an airplane or whatever).
The ultimate option is, obviously to have both!
Put a paper manual in the game case, but have a (none-scanned!) PDF version on the disc, so depending on the circumstances you can choose which one to use.

[Cainehill]

Agrajag said:

Cainehill said:

Eh - LCDs definately have their advantages over CRTs too. For example : it's been a _long_ time since I saw a CRT type monitor that had portrait orientation. (As I recall it was part of an expensive Wang word processing hardware suite, not even a general purpose computer.) Whereas my LCD I can swivel 90 degrees, giving a choice of landscape (for gaming) and portrait (for editing source code, working on documents, browsing the web). I do also have a CRT hooked up next to the LCD, but when it dies I'll probably get another LCD.


I'm note sure I understand what you mean here, do you mean "flipping" the monitor on its side so that it will be like a paper page?
If you do, I don't see how that would help me. Its just as easy reading "normally", especially if you are reading from a website (rather than a document), since the website interface usually takes up horizontal space.
And you could flip a CRT monitor on its side, it will be pretty crude, but you can put it on its side, and flipping the display is very simple (just get the latest Nvidia drivers).




Even here on Shrapnel's forums, the portrait orientation allows me to see / read more of the text onscreen at one time. If you don't think seeing more at once is better - try resizing your browser to half height, and look at how little you can see at a time. Fact is that most "modern" websites waste horizontal space, since they have a maximum amount of text they'll display in a given line. It's even more obvious / pertinent with sites like the new york times.

And viewing PDF files or documents : with the vertical orientation, I can view a full page at 100% zoom. If the monitor is horizontal, again : lots of space wasted on the sides, while I can't view an entire page at once.

Heh. Flipping a CRT monitor on its side isn't very practical, not when the monitor weighs 60+ pounds, has curved sides and the like. Not only inconvenient when you may switch back and forth several times a day, but almost certainly bad for the monitor's longevity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And, another virtual of LCD monitors : a lot easier to fit several of them into a limited amount of space. My 19" CRT takes, mmm, 19" horizontal and 21 or 22" depth-wise - and it's a so-called "short-neck" design. The 19" LCD, even in "normal" landscape mode, is 15" wide (12" in portrait mode) and requires only about 7" depth.

I can support 3 monitors with my current graphics setup - but certainly can't fit 3 CRT monitors in my workspace. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Graeme Dice]

PrinzMegaherz said:
If the manual is as helpful as the manual of Dom2, you should just drop it, save the money, lower the price and include a good tutorial / launch a Dominions 3 wikipedia as Stardock is doing for GC2. Maybe you could offer a cheaper download only version, saving people the shipping cost.



I'm not sure why people don't like the manual for Dom2. It contains almost all the information you need to understand the basics of the game mechanics, and it's not as though the interface is complicated.

[OG_Gleep]

Graeme Dice said:

PrinzMegaherz said:
If the manual is as helpful as the manual of Dom2, you should just drop it, save the money, lower the price and include a good tutorial / launch a Dominions 3 wikipedia as Stardock is doing for GC2. Maybe you could offer a cheaper download only version, saving people the shipping cost.



I'm not sure why people don't like the manual for Dom2. It contains almost all the information you need to understand the basics of the game mechanics, and it's not as though the interface is complicated.



Eh. No. I had to read multiple 3rd party docs before I figured out what was going on. In any sense, its 90% items/spells 10% mechanics.

[Gandalf Parker]

Third party docs always tend to be an advatage. By the time a developer has a playable product they are past being able to think like a newbie to write a manual.

[Saber Cherry]

Jurri said:
What's wrong with tapwater? Bottled water is a strain to the nature, requiring transportation over long distances via ecologically inefficient means and producing plastic waste in the form of discarded bottles. Additionally, I understand a large minority of bottled water is actually tapwater in bottles (something like 40% if memory serves).

In many places the quality of tapwater is more regulated than is the quality of bottled water, if you're worried about contaminants. Of course there are also areas that lack regulations or follow them laxly, so I don't think generalizations apply to either side of the argument: for some the use of bottled water is the only viable choice, whereas for others it's only rational to use tapwater. Easy for me to say, seeing how great the quality of tapwater is in most of Finland. It could be that I've been told to 'like the crap' but then again your preference of alternatives over tapwater might quite as well spring from someone telling you that it's better. Not knowing what the tapwater is like in Crystal Tokyo, I'd better not hazard a guess.




Heh - Crystal Tokyo is on the moon, and we have no water http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Tapwater is well-regulated in some places, and poorly in others - same with produce and bread. I understand that in France you can walk into any bakery and buy good bread. I know that in Mexico, you can walk into any supermarket and buy good milk - and it does not require refrigeration before opening, because they abandoned pasteurization along with blood-letting and other primitive rituals long ago. Their milk is irradiated, and tastes wonderful compared to milk in unfortunate countries that fear modern technology.

So, some people are lucky. But in most of the world, tapwater is contaminated with one or more of lead, copper, fluorine (natural or added), chlorine, chloramines, human or agricultural hormones, MTBE (a gasoline additive), E. Coli, and other unpleasant compounds. They may or may not change the taste of the water, but no matter where you live, it is impossible to filter these out to high standards on the massive scale of tapwater distro systems, which must be used to water lawns, run showers, fill swimming pools, wash clothes, wash cars, run swamp coolers, and other things that use 1000X more water than drinking, and have no need for high purity.

People can install reverse-osmosis or charcoal filters on their tap to reduce these contaminants, or like me, fill jugs from a commercial reverse-osmosis / dionization water purifier at a store. Mmmm, it's sweet and delicious... and more importantly, I won't get cancer / dumbness / unwanted sex characteristics / etc from drinking it in massive quantities.


Of course, if the alternative isn't bottled water but a natural spring nearby (like I have where I go for Summer) it's all cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Stop bragging http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


many higher-quality alternatives for common things aren't ecologically as effective as the lesser-quality alternative.



That's kind of universally true. The more expensive something is, the greater its ecological impact, in general. It is not strictly true because e.g. coal power plants don't pay for their pollution, while nuclear plants do; environmental destruction is cheaper in more primitive countries; and so forth. Despite this, there's a good correlation between cost and impact - cheaper Chinese imports have a lower environmental impact than natively produced quality googs, because the Chinese laborers that produced them live very poorly, eat little, ride bikes, live in tiny houses or apartments (or jail cells), use little energy, and generate trivial amounts of garbage. But that doesn't make we want to buy lower-quality, cheaper items http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Like LCD-monitors: they use less energy compared to a CRT of same screen-size (1/2 to 1/3 unless I'm mistaken) and when discarded are far easier to dispose of since they contain less ecologically harmful materials. Of course, LCD-monitors are also more expensive than CRTs (which might indicate a larger ecological strain in the production process: I don't really know), so maybe you've got some other alternative that you prefer over either?



There is no current alternative superior to either. I like CRTs purely because they have a better image and better responsiveness (comparing a top-end CRT from 2002 to a top-end LCD today). Unfortunately, the industry has decided on LCDs, and no innovation has occured in the CRT area for the last 5 years... instead, they're constantly getting worse, as far as I can tell, since most people will not spend more on a CRT than an LCD. $200 CRTs are the same as $200 CRTs 5 years ago but the $500 CRTs of 5 years ago have disappeared.

Pretty soon, flat-panel CRTs (the ones with millions of emitters, rather than a single cathode) will come out, and destroy everything else... but they're not here yet.


P.S. I don't mean to imply that anyone who likes LCDs or tapwater "likes crap". That was bad wording on my part. What I meant to say was, "Most people like what they're given, even if it is crap.", with the specific examples being cases in which people whose interests run counter to the majority have to pay a price for it - without implying that one choice is right or wrong. As you noted, LCDs have many advantages over CRTs, but I evaluate them using different metrics than other people - I don't care about portability, power consumption, or soft X-rays zapping my brain nearly as much as "ability to perform well in computer games". Wonderbread really is crap, but I might buy it to feed to ducks, for example - they prefer it to the real thing.

[Agrajag]

Cainehill said:
Even here on Shrapnel's forums, the portrait orientation allows me to see / read more of the text onscreen at one time. If you don't think seeing more at once is better - try resizing your browser to half height, and look at how little you can see at a time. Fact is that most "modern" websites waste horizontal space, since they have a maximum amount of text they'll display in a given line. It's even more obvious / pertinent with sites like the new york times.

And viewing PDF files or documents : with the vertical orientation, I can view a full page at 100% zoom. If the monitor is horizontal, again : lots of space wasted on the sides, while I can't view an entire page at once.

Heh. Flipping a CRT monitor on its side isn't very practical, not when the monitor weighs 60+ pounds, has curved sides and the like. Not only inconvenient when you may switch back and forth several times a day, but almost certainly bad for the monitor's longevity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


I guess that for me, this little feature can't be compared to all the advantages CRT monitors have over LCD monitors.
So an LCD monitore might be a better optino if you really use this option, which means they are better for office work (especially since they look good and impress important buisnessman visitors =P), but for a gamer, I still don't think and LCD is a better option.


Cainehill said:And, another virtual of LCD monitors : a lot easier to fit several of them into a limited amount of space. My 19" CRT takes, mmm, 19" horizontal and 21 or 22" depth-wise - and it's a so-called "short-neck" design. The 19" LCD, even in "normal" landscape mode, is 15" wide (12" in portrait mode) and requires only about 7" depth.

I can support 3 monitors with my current graphics setup - but certainly can't fit 3 CRT monitors in my workspace. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


The only thing that matters in this case is width (after all, its rather pointless putting monitors behind each other), and the width difference is rather marginal between different monitor types.
If I could fit two LCD monitors, I could fit two CRT monitors. (which I can't, because I rather like having speakers =P)

And I can support 3 monitors as well, though I'll need 1 that connects via S-Video, 1 that connect via DVI and 1 that connects via VGA(I think that's how the connection is called) =P
Well, actually I have a VGA to DVI converter, so I could do with 2 VGAs.

In any case I hardly have a reason to use more than one monitor...

[atul]

Nerfix said:
My only problem with the price is that the I'm not sure if I have any way to pay it.


I had that problem with Dom2. However, at least back then it was possible to pay the game by sending a cheque to them. The actual process was a quite weird experience and involved a lot more unnecessary paper prints than a printed manuals ever will, but unless you're too green-minded it does work. What I did was to go to my local bank, had them transfer money to a collaborating bank in US, which in turn mailed the cheque to the store's bank. It costed about 10 euros extra, at least in Osuuspankki.

On the matter of manual, I like mine printed. Reading from a screen gets tedious after a while, there's no lag for page refresh on paper and finding a correct spot from a book is a learned skill (we didn't need no Ctrl-F when I was young, well fossilized at the ripe age of 24). And Dom2 manual is in active use when I play, assuming I find it. But, to each their own, other people are accustomed to different things.

[Gandalf Parker]

My complaint on manuals goes like this...

A) I dont tend to use a printed one unless Im going to the dentist or somewhere I have to wait

B) I dont like PDF because it always feels like Im using a giant truck to deliver a small box. Its long and eats CPU and Memory to let me look up some piddly little thing. PDF is a ton of special options that the manual never uses.

C)I will use local copies of manuals in HTML form or something else that my browser can pop right up. Especially if its multiple files that are named in ways that tell me how to jump to what I want. Besides, most html manuals do a better job of keyword linking to different sections than any pdf Ive ever gotten.

D) most file forms of manuals I just convert to .txt files. Thats what I did with all the pdf files I got from Dom2.

I'd get more use from a Dom3 hot-coffee mug that has all the keypresses on it for those late night sessions Im going to be plagued with (and if someone else doesnt CafePress it then I will)

[Cainehill]

Agrajag said:
I guess that for me, this little feature can't be compared to all the advantages CRT monitors have over LCD monitors.
So an LCD monitore might be a better optino if you really use this option, which means they are better for office work (especially since they look good and impress important buisnessman visitors =P), but for a gamer, I still don't think and LCD is a better option.




I'm a gamer too, and I find that reasonably high end LCD works well enough, even for graphics intensive stuff like Morrowind / Oblivion and things like that. Might be different if I wanted to play twitch-type games like FPS's, but I don't.

And if I do - I have a ... 7 year old Nokia that is one of those high-quality CRTs that SC mentioned. Sadly, it's getting old and starting to fade. Hmm. 22" Philips on Newegg for $439 might be a nice upgrade. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ( SC is right - not many CRTs listed there anymore at all, and hardly any 19+ inch ones. )

[Agrajag]

Cainehill said:
I'm a gamer too, and I find that reasonably high end LCD works well enough, even for graphics intensive stuff like Morrowind / Oblivion and things like that. Might be different if I wanted to play twitch-type games like FPS's, but I don't.


Aaaah, but you can't beat playing Galactic Civilizations 2 on 17XX*13XX http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
And besides, with the 150$ you save by going for a CRT, you can buy a better GPU/CPU/RAM so that you can use the monitor's superior skills (such as the ability to play games on 1600*1200 ^_^)

[tibbs]

Of course, if the alternative isn't bottled water but a natural spring nearby (like I have where I go for Summer) it's all cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif





There's a third option. I use an RO/DI filter for my drinking water and my reef aquarium. Water as pure[er] than bottled water without the containers and transportation!

[Cainehill]

I use a strychnine / plutonium filter for my water : kills anything living in the water, plus I love the way it glows when I'm boiling pasta. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Jurri]

Yeah, Cherry also mentioned that filtered water is the alternative referred to. I never even saw a commercial filter for drinking water so it didn't cross my mind: I do understand that filters are used in rural areas without waterpipes and even saw one operated in the army now that I think about it, but using it to filter tapwater on a regular basis is really not within my sphere of experience. Goes to show how small my world is! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Cainehill]

Yeh - here in the USA there's at least two major / common brands of water filters that supposedly removed 99.7% of the bacteria, lead, etc. Either by putting a filter on the faucet, or by filters in pitchers / water dispensers. That's what I use for all my drinking water because it improves the flavor greatly. Cooking, making tea & coffee I don't care as much - I mean, we all gotta die someday, and the doctors may still wind up deciding the lead and PCBs are good for us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[AMF]

Um, can I ask an on-topic question?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Annette: can the pre-order system ship to FPO addresses?

Thanks,

Alarik

[Annette]

alarikf said:
Um, can I ask an on-topic question?


Annette: can the pre-order system ship to FPO addresses?

Thanks,

Alarik



Hi, Alarik! How are you? Yes, we ship to APO/FPO addresses via USPS Priority Mail. There is no shipping charge for this, as with all US addresses. Be sure to select "other" as your state.

If you have other questions, please visit our customer support center at http://www.gamersfront.com/xcart/support_ticket.php
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[AMF]

Coolness. Thankness. All is well. But hot.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now to return you to your regularly scheduled forum discussion

Thanks,

Alarik