Oblivion [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

PrinzMegaherz

March 24th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Jurri said:
Why not play dom2 in the meantime?

Wasn't that other thread enough for Oblivion OT, there was some other dude that got it too... Huh, PrinzMegaherz! Where did that nice bouncy avatar go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

She's back due to popular demand.

As for Oblivion:

There a a number of things I don't like / that could have been improved in order to make it even better. Even though, I can't get myself to stop playing it, and it has been quite some time I since a last played one game that much.

Gandalf Parker said:
Is Oblivion more like Daggerfall or just a step up from Morrowind? Is there any real widlerness or areas that arent part of a quest? Im still debating whether or not to get Oblivion

There is a quicktravel option like in daggerfall that let's you jump to specific locations you want to travel to. If you choose to go there yourself, you will stumble upon more than just one place of interest in between. There are countless caves, old castles and ancient remains to be found. All are very detailed and nicely designed (no instant dungeons as in Daggerfall). However, they lack their own story. I would have liked to find books or letters that would explain a bit of their past, but there is nothing. It's a bit like those places in Diablo 2 that you could enter to find a golden chest at the end, but nothing else. If you like dungeon crawling just of the sake of getting items and experience, this is for you. If you prefer story elements, you can skip those and get on with the main quest or the sidequests.

DominionsFan

March 24th, 2006, 06:18 PM

Gandalf Parker said:
Is Oblivion more like Daggerfall or just a step up from Morrowind? Is there any real widlerness or areas that arent part of a quest? Im still debating whether or not to get Oblivion

Well in these 2 days I only was traveling in the Imperial province so far and its HUGE with like 10+ castles/cities, lot of dungeons etc. Yes of course you can walk to anywhere or go on horse, or just use fast travel on the map. There are many provinces, I am not exactly sure that how much.
Everything is perfect in the game, the gfx is like....almost like you are watching a movie. I am not kidding its so real...amazing. The quests, the character system/leveling/skills/guilds etc. etc...fantastic game.

Im gonna make some screenshots about my travels and my char soon, until then here are some from the net.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ob_pc/obliv07B.jpg

http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ob_pc/obliv03B.jpg

http://images.3dgamers.com/screenimages/games/es4oblivion/tes4_orcarmor.jpg

http://mirror.rateofinjury.com/portals/images/oblivion80.jpg

http://mirror.rateofinjury.com/portals/images/oblivion75.jpg

Here is an excellent screenie from the wilderness. Yes Gandalf YOU CAN walk in a wilderness like this. This is how the wilderness looks like. [The forest areas]

http://www.oblivionportal.com/media/showscreenshot.php?image=oblivion68.jpg

There are thousands of screenshots on the net, you should take a look at them. Everything is just perfect in this game, you really should consider to buy this, if you like RPGs, and if you want the experience the next gen gfx.

OG_Gleep

March 24th, 2006, 07:15 PM

A lot of people complained about Morrowinds static world. They came up with a new AI system (the name escapes me). Each NPC will have a set of priorities, which will determine what he does in his day. Some see themselves as warriors, so spend a lot of time training. Some are people ..er people, so they travel around looking for their friends (thats what PC Gamer said). I don't know how they could tell, but I have noticed people striking up conversations that you can ease drop on.

To me, whatever they did, the game world seems immersive and alive.

Its a great game, and a great achievement imho for Role Playing games in general.

Heres what I don't like, and its going to be a very common problem from now on I fear. Its consolized. Theres many concessions they obviously made for the 360. It just seems overly simplistic for a RPG as complicated as this. Oh well. I can't wait for the mod community to start pumping out stuff.

PrinzMegaherz

March 24th, 2006, 07:41 PM

OG_Gleep said:
Heres what I don't like, and its going to be a very common problem from now on I fear. Its consolized. Theres many concessions they obviously made for the 360. It just seems overly simplistic for a RPG as complicated as this. Oh well. I can't wait for the mod community to start pumping out stuff.

One big concession are the very small areas. You will often see the loading screen in dungeons or cities.

Saber Cherry

March 24th, 2006, 08:36 PM

I hope Oblivion doesn't conflict with Supreme Commander. I'm planning to buy SupCom at release, and Oblivion once the first expansion pack (==major bugfix update) and good mods come out... but I don't know the timing of either event. I'll probably have a nice, new computer by then.

From the mod side, I'd like to see a much better experience system, vastly less ugly people, spears, crossbows, short/long blade split, and from what I'm hearing, a redo of their leveled-list system, and a "PC Version" mod that de-consolizes the interface. Morrowind was much better after various mods came out, and this game repeats some of the same failings... so maybe the same people will fix them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

DominionsFan

March 24th, 2006, 09:36 PM

Saber Cherry said:
I hope Oblivion doesn't conflict with Supreme Commander. I'm planning to buy SupCom at release, and Oblivion once the first expansion pack (==major bugfix update) and good mods come out... but I don't know the timing of either event. I'll probably have a nice, new computer by then.

From the mod side, I'd like to see a much better experience system, vastly less ugly people, spears, crossbows, short/long blade split, and from what I'm hearing, a redo of their leveled-list system, and a "PC Version" mod that de-consolizes the interface. Morrowind was much better after various mods came out, and this game repeats some of the same failings... so maybe the same people will fix them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I love the lvl system its just perfect, much better then gaining xp like in 99% of the RPGs, its old and boring.
What did you meant less ugly people? You gotta be kidding, the variety of the faces in Oblivion is endless. There are hot women, ugly orcs etc, and all of them are different regarding their "face".
You gonna miss the best game out there atm, if you wont buy it right now Saber. :-)
Oblivion >>>> Morrowind, and it is not just the gfx. Everything is just perfect.

alexti

March 24th, 2006, 10:13 PM

Saber Cherry said:
From the mod side, I'd like to see a much better experience system, vastly less ugly people, spears, crossbows, short/long blade split, and from what I'm hearing, a redo of their leveled-list system, and a "PC Version" mod that de-consolizes the interface. Morrowind was much better after various mods came out, and this game repeats some of the same failings... so maybe the same people will fix them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Yeah, I wonder about mods too. Stock Morrowind's balance was badly messed up. Until mega-morrowind mod it was plain boring. I'm afraid the same thing may happen to Oblivion. I guess in a few weeks fans will come to some conclusion.

Saber Cherry

March 24th, 2006, 11:47 PM

DominionsFAN said:
I love the lvl system its just perfect, much better then gaining xp like in 99% of the RPGs, its old and boring.

The problem is:

(I mean it! This is a spoiler, do not read if you don't want to know how to abuse the MW/OB level system!)

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blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala The game encourages you to do stupid things like jump in place for 30 minutes if you want high acrobatics, or just if you want that nice 5x mult near the end of a level. The worst problem is that you cannot achieve a great character through intelligent choices - you have to make the most ***-backwards choices instead. Want to lay waste to enemies with a longsword, wearing heavy armor? DON'T choose blade and heavy armor as primary; choose blunt and light armor, but only use blade and heavy armor. Then your blade and heavy armor skills (and, when you *rarely* level, their associated stats) go through the roof, while enemies stay at a low level. If you actually pick the skills you use (or use the skills yuou pick), you level too quickly, and only get x1 or x2 level-ups (very bad!) and have much lower skills for the things you use at any given level. blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala blahblah blah blah blahblahblah blah lala blah lalala
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What did you meant less ugly people? You gotta be kidding, the variety of the faces in Oblivion is endless. There are hot women, ugly orcs etc, and all of them are different regarding their "face".

...Have you seen the before and after "Beautiful Faces / Bodies / Clothes" mods for Morrowind? Oblivion looks a lot like "Before" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The forests and dungeons and etc. are amazing, but the people (to me) look ugly. Not low-tech, or low-poly, or low-res... just ugly and unnatural, especially compared to what modders can do for free with the same tools.

You gonna miss the best game out there atm, if you wont buy it right now Saber. :-)
Oblivion >>>> Morrowind, and it is not just the gfx. Everything is just perfect.

I agree with both of those (well, except for the 'best' part). But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ironhawk

March 25th, 2006, 12:39 AM

OG_Gleep said:
A lot of people complained about Morrowinds static world. They came up with a new AI system (the name escapes me). Each NPC will have a set of priorities, which will determine what he does in his day. Some see themselves as warriors, so spend a lot of time training. Some are people ..er people, so they travel around looking for their friends (thats what PC Gamer said). I don't know how they could tell, but I have noticed people striking up conversations that you can ease drop on.

I believe its called Radiant AI.

Saber Cherry

March 25th, 2006, 12:42 AM

Ironhawk said:
I believe it's called Radiant AI.

Because the dogs glow when their owners set them on fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PrinzMegaherz

March 25th, 2006, 04:27 AM

Saber Cherry said:

DominionsFAN said:
I love the lvl system its just perfect, much better then gaining xp like in 99% of the RPGs, its old and boring.

The problem is:

(I mean it! This is a spoiler, do not read if you don't want to know how to abuse the MW/OB level system!)

I still wonder how much effort you put into exploiting games. You were the first to point out that GC2's AI could be exploitet. Why don't you just enjoy the game instead of making such an effort to ruin the game for yourself?

Saber Cherry

March 25th, 2006, 05:03 AM

I don't put effort into it, I try to enjoy them. But if a single-player game shoots itself in the foot, I'm not going to whittle crutches for it. How much fun is it to play Go or Magic or Basketball against yourself? Not much, because any challenge is purely artificial. Playing Morrowind was, in my experience, like playing D&D alone, with yourself as the GM. I spent half the time in-game, and the other half trying to find a mod or tweak a setting to compensate for the pathetic lack of choice.

In a good game, there are tradeoffs. If Soccer was structured such that only forwards could score, but nobody was allowed to shoot on an undefended goal... any team with non-forwards would automatically lose, it would be a stupid game, and it would have died centuries ago. It's around today because it does not have stupid exploits that require you to play in a deliberately dumb way in order to provide an illusion of challenge for yourself. Oblivion did not have to include the same exploits - they could have learned from the person who modded it to remove them.

Games are self-enclosed. If you have to impose external rules on yourself to make them interesting (like going to the Olympics wearing lead shoes, going on "Who Wants to Be A Millionare" drunk and high, or playing Civilization without ever building buildings) then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game itself. In good games, people don't have to resort to such saboutage - they can unleash themselves and compete to the best of their ability. If I can't compete to the best of my ability, I'm not playing a game - I'm tutoring someone (like when I play ping-pong or raquetball left-handed, or "weakly"). I have no need to tutor someone when I'm alone.

DominionsFan

March 25th, 2006, 07:56 AM

Saber, you never played with Oblivion but you are posting like if you would. Try it before you are making up these ideas. I am pretty sure that you will be amazed by the whole game...well if you dont like the leveling system etc. I cannot help you in that, but saying that the faces are ugly...that is just nonsense. These are the most realistic faces what I ever seen in any game, they are fantastic.

As for singe player games....I was playing WoW for months, but I still enjoy some singeplayer games much more. Dont forget theres a huge amount of players who do enjoy playing offline, and this is true about Dominions also.

OG_Gleep

March 25th, 2006, 08:37 AM

Yes..thats it. Thanks IH.

Saber - Theres a difference between playing within the given ruleset, and abuse, and as you said, that is abusing the level system. That is akin to activating god mode in my book. Now, jumping up and down while you run to raise your skill = playing within the ruleset.

And everyone would jump on someone saying "I hate dominions, with unlimited pretender creation points, the game is too easy". If you have some wierd need to use exploits in every game...well...theres always an exploit in every game. The AI can't handle when the player does certain things, or say there is a flaw in the combat system that lets you not take damage....if you feel compelled to do these things, then you must hate SP games. Unfortunatley gamers will find these types of flaws in games, but your the first person who insisted that they must be used.

Gandalf Parker

March 25th, 2006, 10:24 AM

DominionsFAN said:

Gandalf Parker said:
Is Oblivion more like Daggerfall or just a step up from Morrowind? Is there any real widlerness or areas that arent part of a quest? Im still debating whether or not to get Oblivion

Well in these 2 days I only was traveling in the Imperial province so far and its HUGE with like 10+ castles/cities, lot of dungeons etc. Yes of course you can walk to anywhere or go on horse, or just use fast travel on the map. There are many provinces, I am not exactly sure that how much.

Here is an excellent screenie from the wilderness. Yes Gandalf YOU CAN walk in a wilderness like this. This is how the wilderness looks like. [The forest areas]

Im sure the graphics are great. And that you can walk in the "wilderness" but what Im wondering is whether its really wilderness. In Daggerfall you could walk out of town and fight monsters, you could find dungeons to do. In Morrowind you could step off the road but all you did was step over a hill to another road. You could find a do a dungeon that wasnt on your quest, but all you were doing was some other dungeon that was part of some other quest. Doing things out of order isnt quite the "open gaming" that Morrowind promised.

But it does sound as if maybe they listened to the daggerfall fans. Not as much as Id like apparently. Since other games look to be aways off then I will add Oblivion to my wishlist for now. Im not in a hurry though since I have other new games Ive bught but havent even opened and installed yet

Endoperez

March 25th, 2006, 10:43 AM

OG_Gleep said:
Saber - Theres a difference between playing within the given ruleset, and abuse, and as you said, that is abusing the level system. That is akin to activating god mode in my book. Now, jumping up and down while you run to raise your skill = playing within the ruleset.

It depends on how the game is balanced. I can see why she'd rather wait until the modders have improved the system. She seems to have very analytic mind, in that she understands what different formula and rules actually mean, and can come up with better ways to use those rules to her advantage. I can imagine it is harder to like games, if their flaws are more apparent.

SC didn't say that those flaws that exist must be used. She just said that she doesn't like doing that unless she is teaching someone else to do better, and in SP games, she shouldn't have to. A game should be a challenge. I woldn't compare that to cheating for unlimited design points, but to e.g. noticing that Vampire Queen is much more powerful as a combatant than as a rainbow pretender. The Illwinter guys hadn't thought of the Vampire Queen in the battlefield, and her cost was heavily increased in the following patch after her introduction. It could also be compared to using magical summons instead of national units. Not relying extensively on summons is not feasible in multiplayer DomII. The game wasn't meant to be played that way, but the game just works that way.

Mind you, she hasn't said that Oblivion is a bad game, just that it could be better. She also said:

But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie

Cainehill

March 25th, 2006, 12:51 PM

Saber Cherry said:
...I agree with both of those (well, except for the 'best' part). But I'd rather miss "X" now and enjoy "3X" later than enjoy "X" now and miss "3X" later. I think you are eating pie dough because you can't wait for the pie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Heh. Sounds like someone is seriously craving a pie fix. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I definately agree about MorrowWind's skill / leveling up system : retarded, lame, not fun, counterintuitive. Prop a book on the keyboard to keep the character jumping? Sheesh. Or - wear the heaviest armor you can find, and find the smallest rat to attack you for a few hours, to build up armor skill.

Thanks for reminding me why I haven't started Morrowind up in a couple months. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Vicious Love

March 25th, 2006, 01:05 PM

Just chiming in to agree with pretty much all of SC's comments. Methinks the problem really does have to do with the world being so static. The world just kind of lies around and waits for you to outsmart it, on your own terms and in your own time. Which always comes too soon, as the world is none too bright. You really have to go out of your way to avoid stumbling onto one of the dozen gameplay-crippling exploits, and all the metagaming this necessitates makes everything seem so artificial.

DominionsFan

March 25th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Gandalf Parker said:

DominionsFAN said:

Gandalf Parker said:
Is Oblivion more like Daggerfall or just a step up from Morrowind? Is there any real widlerness or areas that arent part of a quest? Im still debating whether or not to get Oblivion

Well in these 2 days I only was traveling in the Imperial province so far and its HUGE with like 10+ castles/cities, lot of dungeons etc. Yes of course you can walk to anywhere or go on horse, or just use fast travel on the map. There are many provinces, I am not exactly sure that how much.

Here is an excellent screenie from the wilderness. Yes Gandalf YOU CAN walk in a wilderness like this. This is how the wilderness looks like. [The forest areas]

Im sure the graphics are great. And that you can walk in the "wilderness" but what Im wondering is whether its really wilderness. In Daggerfall you could walk out of town and fight monsters, you could find dungeons to do. In Morrowind you could step off the road but all you did was step over a hill to another road. You could find a do a dungeon that wasnt on your quest, but all you were doing was some other dungeon that was part of some other quest. Doing things out of order isnt quite the "open gaming" that Morrowind promised.

But it does sound as if maybe they listened to the daggerfall fans. Not as much as Id like apparently. Since other games look to be aways off then I will add Oblivion to my wishlist for now. Im not in a hurry though since I have other new games Ive bught but havent even opened and installed yet

Nop you can fight in the huge wilderness with monsers, and you can find dungeons what are not part of any quests of course. I still travelling around in the starting province, and all I can say is that its HUGE, and awesome.

OG_Gleep

March 25th, 2006, 06:22 PM

Dunno I still think he/she is saying that if its an option then it should be used. And good games don't have those options.

Power Gamers will always find the quickest way to level. Have you ever played an MMO? Every single one had gaping flaws that allowed people to get a huge unfair advantages. Well every single one I've played.

Unlimited Pretender design points means a VQ with 9e9a9w9f9s9n9d9b, and can only be gotten through a trainer as far as I know. The word trainer goes right along with Cheating in my book. Just because you don't use a 3rd party app doesn't mean its not exploiting or cheating. Abuse, exploits, and actual h4xs are all the same. And he/she clearly said what was written was an Abuse of the skill system.

So, if you abuse the system, and then complain about it...its kind of silly. Theres very few games out..good, bad, ok, that don't have some form of exploit someone has found.

And ok.. I may concede that taping "jump" button, may not be an abuse per se..but thats just power gaming in a Skill based system. Every skill based system you can do that. Its just the nature of the beast.

Endoperez

March 26th, 2006, 04:02 AM

OG_Gleep wrote:

Dunno I still think he/she is saying that if its an option then it should be used. And good games don't have those options.

So, if you abuse the system, and then complain about it...its kind of silly. Theres very few games out..good, bad, ok, that don't have some form of exploit someone has found.

I thought that she was only saying that she shouldn't have to limit herself when playing for fun. That's like saying that she shouldn't have to have to play Mictlan without ever summoning demons to have a challenge against the AI. It's like playing C'tis with Cold 3 scale and making sure that you only use your own national units. If you know how to play better, you shouldn't have to shoot your own foot.

And ok.. I may concede that taping "jump" button, may not be an abuse per se..but thats just power gaming in a Skill based system. Every skill based system you can do that. Its just the nature of the beast.

What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong. The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.
If "the nature of the beast" is acceptable, is giving Fever Fetishes to undead just part of the game, and acceptable? Not suffering from disease, cold or poison is one of the undeads' primary abilities. The life-draining dagger was meant to be a blood booster for different slot, not a weapon of choice for any creature that wants to have a shield - but as a path that can summon some of the most powerful SC chassises, it makes Blood's primary power of summoning even more powerful.
Sphinx was very powerful pretender in Dom:PPP. It could Teleport into any province very early in the game, and if you got it to an enemy capital on, say, turn 10, he was just screwed. There's not much you can do about it. Sphinx was made truly immobile for DomII, and Teleport was changed. While this might not be the perfect possibility, at least Illwinter did something. Dom:PPP was a good game. DomII is clearly better. Morrowind is a good game, and Oblivion looks better, but why shouldn't the other problems be corrected as well?

PrinzMegaherz

March 26th, 2006, 06:08 AM

Endoperez said:
What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong. The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.

If I'm not completely mistaken, you only level up by increasing your primary skills to a certain amount. Her strategy does not involve leveling those skills, so she would forever remain on level one. And I doubt that you could master the arena with a level one character, as your abilities like Hitpoints etc. would be far too low to survive some of the more fierce battles.

OG_Gleep

March 26th, 2006, 06:32 AM

Endoperez said:
I thought that she was only saying that she shouldn't have to limit herself when playing for fun. That's like saying that she shouldn't have to have to play Mictlan without ever summoning demons to have a challenge against the AI. It's like playing C'tis with Cold 3 scale and making sure that you only use your own national units. If you know how to play better, you shouldn't have to shoot your own foot.

Your comparing apples and oranges. In SC's example, your playing in a way that the developers never inteded you to.

In your example, your chosing not to use what the developers have given you to provide a bigger challenge.

And yes, people do actually chose harder factions, races, sides, teams etc. to give themselves a greater challenge. Have you ever played against a guy who ALWAYS chose the best team in Madden? Or who always wanted to play the best race/side in a strategy game? In RTR, most players scoff at people who use "better" factions because its too easy.

To each is own I guess...but a lot of people actually do play on hard, or choose something that will provide them with a challenge.

I for instance, in oblivion, I wouldn't pick skills that I won't use so that I'll stay at a low level. That wouldn't be fun to me. And I also won't tape my stealth or jump key down over night, because I did that in morrowind and it became way too easy.

In UO there was a similar system, but since its a MMO the end game is more exciting then the process of getting there. So to me, being a 7x GM and killing PKers was my fun, so I powergamed every way I knew how. I did macro and tape the key down over night. That was fun to me, because the challenge was the PvP, not fighting rats and bears.

What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong.

Only if you do it.

The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.

Yes, if you do do what is listed the game will be easier. However, the ENTIRE game scales based on your level. So..if you stay at lvl 1, everything will be low level, but everything will also have basic equipment. A lot of things in the game are tied to your level. IMHO your gimping yourself and the game. But like I said, if this is your definition of fun, then yeah maybe the game is broken.

Dom:PPP was a good game. DomII is clearly better. Morrowind is a good game, and Oblivion looks better, but why shouldn't the other problems be corrected as well?

You were describing actual problems in game balancing. Strategy games and RPGs are different games. If nothing could beat blood in Dominions, it would be banned in MP pretty fast. The CB mod attempted to address the myrad of things that were out of wack.

Skill based systems were designed so that over time, as you used said skills, they would become better, and the skills you don't use...don't. Its pretty simple. If someone macros or tapes a key down, their skills will rise abnormally fast. Don't know how you would change it, and I don't think its an issue that needs to be addressed in a SP game.

In an exp system a lot of people will do random battles over and over again to max out their characters. Someone could theoretically fight random battles over and over again in a console RPG and max out their characters before advancing the story line. Doesn't mean the system is broken.

It becomes a lot more complicated in competitive gaming, and what is needed really depends on what type of game it is. In strategy/sports normally the community will step up and outlaw certain things and provide ground rules for a balanced game that is enjoyable for everyone. In a MMO/FPS, on persistant servers, its impossible for the community to police itself.

But in a SP game, most people police themselves to ensure they have a fun game. The dominons example is most people prefer not to play Ermor against the AI. The same motiviation that compells me to avoid easy difficulty compells me to avoid exploits and abuses.

PrinzMegaherz

March 26th, 2006, 07:46 AM

I completely agree with OG_Gheep.

You know, the real world too is not perfect. Governments are not perfect, people are not perfect. You can't expect games to be perfect, and you will always find a weakness you can exploit. However, if you have the capabilities to find such exploits fast and completely (a skill which I lack), you might put this to better use if you started to change things in the real world, instead of focusing your efforts on games.

Nerfix

March 26th, 2006, 08:34 AM

Are you saying we should aspire to become real pretender gods? I'm afraid my worldview won't tolerate such an idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

shovah

March 26th, 2006, 08:37 AM

PrinzMegaherz said:
I completely agree with OG_Sheep.

You know, the real world too is not perfect. Governments are not perfect, people are not perfect. You can't expect games to be perfect, and you will always find a weakness you can exploit. However, if you have the capabilities to find such exploits fast and completely (a skill which I lack), you might put this to better use if you started to change things in the real world, instead of focusing your efforts on games.

its Og_Gleep. I agree with him too

Vicious Love

March 27th, 2006, 06:52 AM

OG_Gleep said:
Your comparing apples and oranges. In SC's example, your playing in a way that the developers never inteded you to.

I have absolutely no clue what the developers intended you to do. Clearly they didn't intend for you to focus on your class' primary and secondary skills, as that would result in a ludicrously underpowered character(unless all of your class skills were based on the same stat). The system is fundamentally flawed, and SC's "exploit" is just a natural progression of the simpler countermeasures most Morrowind players take to avoid having the weakest possible character of any given level.

DominionsFan

March 27th, 2006, 07:51 AM

Hehe I am still in the imperial province, never made a step out from it yet. This game is just awesome, I cant say it with words, you must experience it yourself. On my last quest, I was teleported into a painting, since somwhow the painting swallowed its own painter in that quest [I wont say more details http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif]!!! I am not kidding the diversity o fthe quests are like incredible. So I was doing that quest inside a painting, the whole forest looked like a painted forest during the whole quest of course, I was like omg this game is just....fantastic.
Now I am on my way to do some battles in the gladiator's arena, I never been there so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cainehill

March 27th, 2006, 10:02 AM

Vicious Love said:

OG_Gleep said:
Your comparing apples and oranges. In SC's example, your playing in a way that the developers never inteded you to.

I have absolutely no clue what the developers intended you to do. Clearly they didn't intend for you to focus on your class' primary and secondary skills, as that would result in a ludicrously underpowered character(unless all of your class skills were based on the same stat). The system is fundamentally flawed, and SC's "exploit" is just a natural progression of the simpler countermeasures most Morrowind players take to avoid having the weakest possible character of any given level.

Yeah. Most such "skill" based (as opposed to experience based) games are fundamentally flawed, in a very cheesy "console-ish" manner that dates back to Final Fantasy VII or so. Gamers should be rewarded for playing skillfully, for concluding battles in a skillful and expedient manner. Instead, these games to some extent force the player to drag the battles out, whether to build up skills, or to build up "materia" (FF series) or simply to ensure that all characters get swapped into the party so that they get experience. In order to win the hard battles, you have to dick around in the easy ones.

Contrast this with an experience based game : typically, little or no experience is gained for the easiest battles, so there is no reason not to rapidly blast through them as quickly as possible. Who cares if a character doesn't get 1/10,000th of the experience required to go up to the next level? This allows the player to spend her time and attention on the interesting, challenging, fights, instead of the chicken scratch ones.

Alneyan

March 27th, 2006, 12:30 PM

PrinzMegaherz said:
If I'm not completely mistaken, you only level up by increasing your primary skills to a certain amount. Her strategy does not involve leveling those skills, so she would forever remain on level one. And I doubt that you could master the arena with a level one character, as your abilities like Hitpoints etc. would be far too low to survive some of the more fierce battles.

That's basically her purpose, actually. In Daggerfall and Morrowind, you do *not* want to level up, especially if you happen to be a mage. Compared to other games, your health is relatively high on level 1, and does not rise much with other levels; Mana does not increase at all, and you could aim for the 85 Intelligence on level 1 with ease in Daggerfall (Morrowind is a bit more reasonable here, I think). So, your fire power is comparatively greater than elsewhere, and your access to magic is virtually unlimited.

I have played a character with all skills starting at 5 in Morrowind, and frankly can't say I've noticed much of a difference. Though I had all my important skills in primary/major (and so levelled rather quickly), I was not seriously challenged past the first few levels - that is, once my Destruction skill reached an acceptable level (20% odds of casting isn't great). Note that it was playing the GOTY edition; in earlier incarnations of the game, Magicka was pretty limited (or so I've been told). In Daggerfall, I know I took down the odd Daedra Lord or three at level 2, while deliberately trying not to level up (bloody Language skills made me go up to level 2). Magic *is* powerful (continuous effects anyone?).

I also dislike very much the mindless levelling of some "non-combat" skills that the system implies. Raising, say, Speechcraft takes a *while* if you use the skill in a rational manner. There is only two ways of getting the skill to a reasonably high level without spending ten months on the same character: training, or the clicking madness. Speechcraft could be raised relatively quickly by bribing the same character left and right (until his disposition dropped to 0), even though there was no point in doing so. Training is the other panacea, wherein gold buys power, which buys more gold, and so on. Training has been revamped in Morrowind, though it may be even more useful than before, as you can now get trained above 50.

Note that I speak about Daggerfall and Morrowind only, as I haven't played Oblivion (but there does not seem to be any significant difference). I find the skill-based system to be more interesting than the classes found elsewhere; problem is, the particular implementation of the skills seem to be flawed in those games. It seems to reward the number of successful uses, no matter how trivial (spells without any "real" effect anyone?), and does not consider how important these successes really were. Quantity over quality... hey, doesn't that sound like the levelling scheme of your average MMORPG? (Ultima Online comes to mind here)

shovah

March 27th, 2006, 12:39 PM

oblivion needs windows xp right?

archaeolept

March 27th, 2006, 12:44 PM

or 2k

here's a review (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/games/oblivion.ars) w/ system requirements

shovah

March 27th, 2006, 02:15 PM

thank the lord. im getting it delivered today (after some delays) and i was worried that it was xp only (like BFME 2 which i am also getting today) since this comp is only 2k

shovah

March 27th, 2006, 07:15 PM

okay ive got it now and i am more than pleased with it. ive only played for a little while and im not long past the tutorial but im very pleased with my buy. this pc is rubbish so the graphics are set to low and most of it still look great (buildings arent the best though) and my life as a wood elf hunter/assasin has begun. ive been practicing my stealth and archery on deer who, while hard at first to catch and hit are relatively easy now (yay, non stat based hitting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif) and im enjoying my new life (with specialisations in stealth, archery, blade skills, athletics, light armour and a few others im faster and more than capable of throat slitting and arrow peppering)

anyone who does not own this game buy it now

alexti

March 27th, 2006, 10:59 PM

Cainehill said:
Yeah. Most such "skill" based (as opposed to experience based) games are fundamentally flawed, in a very cheesy "console-ish" manner that dates back to Final Fantasy VII or so. Gamers should be rewarded for playing skillfully, for concluding battles in a skillful and expedient manner. Instead, these games to some extent force the player to drag the battles out, whether to build up skills, or to build up "materia" (FF series) or simply to ensure that all characters get swapped into the party so that they get experience. In order to win the hard battles, you have to dick around in the easy ones.

Contrast this with an experience based game : typically, little or no experience is gained for the easiest battles, so there is no reason not to rapidly blast through them as quickly as possible. Who cares if a character doesn't get 1/10,000th of the experience required to go up to the next level? This allows the player to spend her time and attention on the interesting, challenging, fights, instead of the chicken scratch ones.

I think that hybrid system would work better: you earn experience (quadratically or cubically depend on difficulty of the task - your "power" is proportional to your total accumulated experience), but rather than gaining levels you spend your "experience" on your skills with the major skills increases being cheapest.

Cainehill

March 28th, 2006, 01:14 AM

Sure - I've played several P&P RPGs that worked that way, generally with some success. Or pure skill based ones that didn't have any levels or classes, Runequest being a wonderful example of such.

Daynarr

March 28th, 2006, 04:50 AM

Those that don't have oblivion or are just waiting for it may give Mount & Blade (http://www.taleworlds.com/) a try. It's free download and demo allows you to play freely with one character until you reach level 6.

Warning* its extremely addictive.

PrinzMegaherz

March 28th, 2006, 08:54 AM

Alneyan said:

PrinzMegaherz said:
If I'm not completely mistaken, you only level up by increasing your primary skills to a certain amount. Her strategy does not involve leveling those skills, so she would forever remain on level one. And I doubt that you could master the arena with a level one character, as your abilities like Hitpoints etc. would be far too low to survive some of the more fierce battles.

That's basically her purpose, actually. In Daggerfall and Morrowind, you do *not* want to level up, especially if you happen to be a mage. Compared to other games, your health is relatively high on level 1, and does not rise much with other levels; Mana does not increase at all, and you could aim for the 85 Intelligence on level 1 with ease in Daggerfall (Morrowind is a bit more reasonable here, I think). So, your fire power is comparatively greater than elsewhere, and your access to magic is virtually unlimited.

I have played a character with all skills starting at 5 in Morrowind, and frankly can't say I've noticed much of a difference. Though I had all my important skills in primary/major (and so levelled rather quickly), I was not seriously challenged past the first few levels - that is, once my Destruction skill reached an acceptable level (20% odds of casting isn't great). Note that it was playing the GOTY edition; in earlier incarnations of the game, Magicka was pretty limited (or so I've been told). In Daggerfall, I know I took down the odd Daedra Lord or three at level 2, while deliberately trying not to level up (bloody Language skills made me go up to level 2). Magic *is* powerful (continuous effects anyone?).

I also dislike very much the mindless levelling of some "non-combat" skills that the system implies. Raising, say, Speechcraft takes a *while* if you use the skill in a rational manner. There is only two ways of getting the skill to a reasonably high level without spending ten months on the same character: training, or the clicking madness. Speechcraft could be raised relatively quickly by bribing the same character left and right (until his disposition dropped to 0), even though there was no point in doing so. Training is the other panacea, wherein gold buys power, which buys more gold, and so on. Training has been revamped in Morrowind, though it may be even more useful than before, as you can now get trained above 50.

Note that I speak about Daggerfall and Morrowind only, as I haven't played Oblivion (but there does not seem to be any significant difference). I find the skill-based system to be more interesting than the classes found elsewhere; problem is, the particular implementation of the skills seem to be flawed in those games. It seems to reward the number of successful uses, no matter how trivial (spells without any "real" effect anyone?), and does not consider how important these successes really were. Quantity over quality... hey, doesn't that sound like the levelling scheme of your average MMORPG? (Ultima Online comes to mind here)

I agree with the last part. I'm playing a thief/assassin, and find it hard to increase my skills. As a Warrior, I would need 3 slashes of my sword to kill my enemy. As an assassin, it only takes one stab from behind. Though the results are the same, the warrior will increase his skills three times as fast.

Vicious Love

March 28th, 2006, 03:23 PM

PrinzMegaherz said:

Alneyan said:

PrinzMegaherz said:
If I'm not completely mistaken, you only level up by increasing your primary skills to a certain amount. Her strategy does not involve leveling those skills, so she would forever remain on level one. And I doubt that you could master the arena with a level one character, as your abilities like Hitpoints etc. would be far too low to survive some of the more fierce battles.

That's basically her purpose, actually. In Daggerfall and Morrowind, you do *not* want to level up, especially if you happen to be a mage. Compared to other games, your health is relatively high on level 1, and does not rise much with other levels; Mana does not increase at all, and you could aim for the 85 Intelligence on level 1 with ease in Daggerfall (Morrowind is a bit more reasonable here, I think). So, your fire power is comparatively greater than elsewhere, and your access to magic is virtually unlimited.

I have played a character with all skills starting at 5 in Morrowind, and frankly can't say I've noticed much of a difference. Though I had all my important skills in primary/major (and so levelled rather quickly), I was not seriously challenged past the first few levels - that is, once my Destruction skill reached an acceptable level (20% odds of casting isn't great). Note that it was playing the GOTY edition; in earlier incarnations of the game, Magicka was pretty limited (or so I've been told). In Daggerfall, I know I took down the odd Daedra Lord or three at level 2, while deliberately trying not to level up (bloody Language skills made me go up to level 2). Magic *is* powerful (continuous effects anyone?).

I also dislike very much the mindless levelling of some "non-combat" skills that the system implies. Raising, say, Speechcraft takes a *while* if you use the skill in a rational manner. There is only two ways of getting the skill to a reasonably high level without spending ten months on the same character: training, or the clicking madness. Speechcraft could be raised relatively quickly by bribing the same character left and right (until his disposition dropped to 0), even though there was no point in doing so. Training is the other panacea, wherein gold buys power, which buys more gold, and so on. Training has been revamped in Morrowind, though it may be even more useful than before, as you can now get trained above 50.

Note that I speak about Daggerfall and Morrowind only, as I haven't played Oblivion (but there does not seem to be any significant difference). I find the skill-based system to be more interesting than the classes found elsewhere; problem is, the particular implementation of the skills seem to be flawed in those games. It seems to reward the number of successful uses, no matter how trivial (spells without any "real" effect anyone?), and does not consider how important these successes really were. Quantity over quality... hey, doesn't that sound like the levelling scheme of your average MMORPG? (Ultima Online comes to mind here)

I agree with the last part. I'm playing a thief/assassin, and find it hard to increase my skills. As a Warrior, I would need 3 slashes of my sword to kill my enemy. As an assassin, it only takes one stab from behind. Though the results are the same, the warrior will increase his skills three times as fast.

Wait, so that same system is still in effect? Ugh. I mean, ugh. First rule of playing a Morrowind mage: Never cast one worthwhile spell when three dozen pathetically weak ones will suffice. Ideally of the sort that can be cast while running across the countryside, targeting nothing in particular.

shovah

March 28th, 2006, 04:09 PM

yea, the leveling system loves warriors and hates anyone who sneaks

PrinzMegaherz

March 28th, 2006, 05:34 PM

Well, my sneak skill keeps increasing rapidly. As long as I do not try to become arena champion, it should work out.

shovah

March 28th, 2006, 07:03 PM

im not a member of the dark brotherhood, im also extremely wanted and always on the run. i genereally run out of town before taunting a soldier off his horse and stealing it. my bounty is around 14k atm and im having the time of my life. my next chsracter will be a noble paladin just for the hell of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

PvK

March 28th, 2006, 10:23 PM

Nice pictures, but personally, I have an imagination, I greatly dislike D&D, and games with ridiculously steep power curves, and games where the difficulty of the world is magically based on the level of your character. Whew, I just saved a bunch of time and money! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Vicious Love

March 29th, 2006, 12:58 AM

PvK said:
...and games where the difficulty of the world is magically based on the level of your character.

Y'see?! Y'see?! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! It's all inert, like the world is either structured entirely around your character, or structured around nothing at all, and waiting around for the sole motive force that is your character. I hate that. Not really a fan of ridiculous power curves, either, nor of games that can't think of a better way to represent power than the ability to withstand three dozen axe blows to one's unarmored face, but it's the repeatedly-lamented inertness that most gets to me.

Saber Cherry

March 29th, 2006, 02:11 AM

Honestly, iron axes just don't hurt very much. Especially now that axes are blunt.

I also don't like crazy power curves - System Shock got it about right. But after a year there was a mod that somewhat fixed the Morrowind level system, so don't put your money into long-term investments yet. It's starting to sound like I'll have to wait until somebody de-leveled-lists all of the levelled lists, too, which is a lot of work. Problem with mods is that you're all fat and happy, thinking, "So much work went into this mod, it'll be great! New enemies like Giants and Dragons, how fun!" when suddenly a naked nymph starts killing your level-7 character, resists all your spells, and moves around at the speed of light evading your arrows like Neo in the Matrix. And you realize that a sufficiently complex mod needs to be modded itself, and then the whole house of cards collapses.

But seriously, I think the patient can be saved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

DominionsFan

March 29th, 2006, 06:12 AM

I am totally addicted to this game. Man if World of Warcraft would be like this....that would be THE MMORPG.

OG_Gleep

March 31st, 2006, 01:01 PM

Vicious Love said:
I have absolutely no clue what the developers intended you to do.

Its pretty obvious by looking at the pre-generated classes, at least you can tell what they didn't intend for you to do.

I bought the book a couple days ago, and here's a basic rundown how how the system works.

There seems to be two ways of determining what level/creature you will face.

There is a creature table that will pick the appropriate mob for your level. There are multiple types of monsters that are fixed level, and what is generated is based off your level. For instance:

Skeletons will always be level 3. Skeleton warriors will always be level 6. If you enter a dungeon at level 1, you will face skeletons. If you eneter the same dungeon at level 5, you will face skeleton warriors. The equipment carried by each type of enemey improves the more you move up the chart. The top tier mob of each table will always be scaled to your level to provide a challenge for high level characters.

Certain Enemies, like Bandits, or Bosses, will always be +X above your level. A bandit leader for instance, will always be 7 levels above you, and will be given level appropriate equipment.

Quest rewards can also be tied to your level. For instance, a ship gets Hijaked while your onboard. If you complete the quest at level 1, you will get 75g. If you complete it at lvl 20, you will get 450g.

Certain quests have a level requirement as well, and you can't get access to them until you reach a certain level.

Honestly I don't know how else you would do it. Because of how opened eneded this game is, there is no way to know when someone will get to a certain quest. In order to keep a non-linear structure, and still provide a challenge the whole way through, I can't think of a better system.

I have put a good chunk of time into the game, and I haven't even scratched the surface according to the guide book. Anyhow, I have the damn thing, if you have any questions let me know.

Vicious Love

March 31st, 2006, 02:47 PM

OG_Gleep said:
Its pretty obvious by looking at the pre-generated classes, at least you can tell what they didn't intend for you to do.

Whuh?

shovah

April 1st, 2006, 05:33 AM

I agree, this game is huge. ive spent about 3 days of playing (i think im up to around 15 hours, maybe a little more) and ive only done the first part of the main quest (go to a monastry and talk to some guy). I would just like to suggest that if you get a chance to join the dark brotherhood take it. it leads to a huge series of side quests along with good rewards, unique items (and an interesting offer from a fellow assasin) and a great plot (really dont wana spoil it on you)

Saber Cherry

April 1st, 2006, 05:49 AM

I have read so many threads about the pros and cons of Oblivion that I dreamt last night I was playing, and I got to level 14 before I even did anything, just from accidentally using really wierd major skills. I was scared to death of going into combat... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Pretty odd dream. I almost never dream about games I haven't played, so I guess my mind modelled it after Morrowind.

shovah

April 1st, 2006, 07:51 AM

the best advice i can give anyone who gets/has it is do not play to level. play to explore/quest. the fact that things levels are dependant on yours means most places you can handle and if theres something you cant handle then go somewhere else. if you decide to just stay in a rather small area repeating the same task you'll get bored fast. just consider leveling up your skills to be a bonus.

Endoperez

April 1st, 2006, 09:10 AM

I have a fabulous time playing Dungeon Crawl. While it does lose a little in the graphics department, and there are very few sub-quests, the main quest is very interesting, and very hard. The main quest is "get to the bottom of this dungeon, grab an Orb, and return". One of the hardest sub-quests is "stay alive". Thus far, I've managed to get farthest with a Spriggan Reaper, surviving mainly on spells but doing a fair bit of melee. Spriggan is the weak, fast, magically tuned race who should stay as far away from melee as possible; Reaper is a hybrid caster/fighter, and I'm probably going to kill some orcs next.

The skill system is just suberb. Skills raise when you use them. You need experience to advance levels, but getting experience also gives you points in your skill pool. You can't get better at skills if your skill pool is empty, and you can't choose to save points in your skill pool for later, so most of the boring optimization is out. The only thing left is to choose what skills you want to use, and what you want to raise faster.

Sometimes I miss the fancy graphics, but the gameplay is so much better that I couldn't possibly choose something mediocre like Oblivion over Crawl. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

shovah

April 1st, 2006, 09:20 AM

i find that extemely offensive. while the graphics are one of the things that attracted me to oblivion they are by no means what keeps me in it

Endoperez

April 1st, 2006, 11:48 AM

Are you sure? Remember that the graphics in Dungeon Crawl are very different from the usual...
http://dungeon-crawl.org/site/gfx/ss-dos-lg
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It isn't always easy to learn to play a game with graphics like this. Besides, the smiley should have gien away something... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Roguelike games are very different from the rest of the computer RPGs. They have little more than combat. They execute that part very well, but you can hardly imagine yourself to be part of a real world that lives on its own. You'd need one of the Ultima games for that...

shovah

April 1st, 2006, 11:54 AM

i know, im just saying that i prefer to avoid games like that (hurts my eyes you see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

OG_Gleep

April 2nd, 2006, 01:44 AM

I think I would definatley take different skills as my main one. I took alchemy for instance, and I've raised that so fast that it did have an impact on how I leveled. But normally I don't care about what is raised...the only thing I tried in the game was Armorer, and that was only so I could repair magical items.

VL did you look at the pre-designed characters? Maybe thats why you didn't get what I was saying?

Cainehill

April 2nd, 2006, 03:10 AM

Welp, got it - must say, Bethesda is still as retarded as ever. Don't get me wrong - some things are impressive. But : not being able to go directly to Inventory, or Map, or Skills, etc, is retarded from a user interface design PoV. They don't _use_ 'I' or 'M' for anything! And it has a disturbing tendency to semi-lockup : mind, Alt-Tabbing from a game does tend to cause that, but it's still a sign of sloppy programming. When you can turn and look at different things via the mouse, but the keyboard and mouse clicks are dead, that's a sign they screw up their input queues.

I think (hope!) I'll play it more than Morrowind, but so far I'll agree with Endoperez : mediocre game in nice tech.

Vicious Love

April 2nd, 2006, 07:36 AM

OG_Gleep said:
VL did you look at the pre-designed characters? Maybe thats why you didn't get what I was saying?

I did, I just fail to see how that undermines my argument; If you focus on their primary skills, they end up underpowered. Since one would assume Bethesda wants archers to have good archery-related stats, battlemages to have good battlemagic-related stats, et cetera, it's obvious they intended for archers to be battlemages and battlemages to be archers. Save that that would make archers archers and battlemages battlemages, which would make them underpowered and contradict the premise. Hence my confusion. To reiterate, whuh?

shovah

April 2nd, 2006, 10:34 AM

all im going to say is that my assasin took assasin skills and stats and i dont find him in any way underpowered (on any difficulty setting)

Graeme Dice

April 2nd, 2006, 06:12 PM

Vicious Love said:
I did, I just fail to see how that undermines my argument; If you focus on their primary skills, they end up underpowered.

Or, one could make the converse argument. If you focus on their secondary skills, they end up overpowered. If you game the system, then you end up with more powerful characters than if you don't. This is hardly new to either the RPG genre or the Elder Scrolls games.

OG_Gleep

April 2nd, 2006, 06:31 PM

Cainehill said:

Welp, got it - must say, Bethesda is still as retarded as ever. Don't get me wrong - some things are impressive. But : not being able to go directly to Inventory, or Map, or Skills, etc, is retarded from a user interface design PoV. They don't _use_ 'I' or 'M' for anything! And it has a disturbing tendency to semi-lockup : mind, Alt-Tabbing from a game does tend to cause that, but it's still a sign of sloppy programming. When you can turn and look at different things via the mouse, but the keyboard and mouse clicks are dead, that's a sign they screw up their input queues.

I can only comment on your complaints, and your only complaint that you listed that made it a mediocre game is the interface. "Retarded" is not the word I would use to describe them for making this choice. Actually by not developing it for the 360, they would have been retarded. I just think it was just *** out lazy to not spend more time to de-consolize Oblivon, and a big FU to the Fans who have been with this series since day 1.

I was a little pissed as well, and although it takes more clicks to get where you want to go, its not that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things.

If thats your only complaint...

VL: I was responding specifically to the overall thread of the conversation:

SC: Skill system Exploit
Me: Not Intent of developers
VL: I don't know what they intend
Me: Pre-Fab Classes suggests intent

From what I saw of the predesigned characters, they designed them like their title suggests. I didn't see anything that would suggest otherwise. I'll take a look again, but my point was that you can tell they didn't intend for you to play in the manner that SC suggested.

As for under-powered characters, I can only comment on what I have experience with, my one character. I play Heavy armor, Athletic, Blade wielding, low mana Mage that likes to make potions. I think I have half of my skill set magic related, and use magic mainly in a support role...primarily using my sword and shield as my main adventure tools. I have a total mana pool of 123 unbuffed at level 21. I have gotten +5 once, upon leveling and that was for endurance. Am I underpowered compared to a pure warrior who took care to maximize his stat increases? Most definatley. Have I nerfed myself? Most definatley not. I have had many many fights where I had to use all my skills to survive, but have only had one fight that I couldn't beat, and had to come back at a later time. No matter how I tried, the 3 slaves on 1 arena fight was way too tuff for me at low levels. There was a couple of fights pre level 5 that I had to retreat from, but more so because I was new to the game and didn't have the sufficent skills and tools to prevail.

I made a point not to powergame, and am glad for that choice. As I said, because I haven't maxed out my stats, fights are still a matter of using my skill set, instead of my stat lines.

I have heard that playing a pure mage (esp without alchemy) is hard, but playing a pre-uber level mage is typically hard. I have heard that once you crest a certain hill, things get easier.

Saber Cherry

April 2nd, 2006, 06:33 PM

Graeme Dice said:
Or, one could make the converse argument. If you focus on their secondary skills, they end up overpowered. If you game the system, then you end up with more powerful characters than if you don't. This is hardly new to either the RPG genre or the Elder Scrolls games.

Either way is the same. I like to play games that are fairly challenging throughout, but in Morrowind it was like walking on a balance beam - pick the wrong skill, play the wrong way, and suddenly the game is too easy or too hard... but you never know if you're playing too well or too badly until it's too late. In a normal RPG, there is self balance, such that if you get too powerful you can go to a "more difficult area" with commensurate rewards, and if you are too weak you can go to an "easier area". In Morrowind/Oblivion, there is no such option - when you become off-balance on either side, you just keep falling.

shovah

April 2nd, 2006, 08:01 PM

well theres always the difficulty slider which has a big impact (at minimum lvl i killed something with 3 shots and at max it was 10-20)

OG_Gleep

April 2nd, 2006, 09:24 PM

A lot of people have turned to the console to correct mistakes.

But what you said is true of most non-action RPGs that let you create a character....regardless of system (skill or xp). This can happen in MMO's as well, and that is painful.

You make roll a character or party, only to find out that you nerfed yourself because: the selections you made were nerfed to begin with, were nerfed because they were overpowered, or will be nerfed in a future update. In the D&D based systems I'll spend hours re-rolling parties because I found the selections I made weren't working, or I found something that worked and I needed more of it. Actually, I spent more time re-rolling playing the Exp type RPGs than I ever did in any of the Daggerfall series. In most CRPGs, the difficulty tends to continually ramp up. Maybe if you gave me some examples of games that let you go to "easier" or "hard" areas it would jog my memory.

Action RPGs or Actionish type RPGs are exceptions, because once you choose a class, the options players are given are mostly cosmetic. And a lot of times they do have "areas" like MMO's, where areas were ment to be played by characters in a set level range.

But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

Saber Cherry

April 3rd, 2006, 02:08 AM

OG_Gleep said:
But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

I was thinking about console RPGs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

PrinzMegaherz

April 3rd, 2006, 06:48 AM

Saber Cherry said:

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

While most people would disagree with Diablo being a rpg, I think the Diablo system has both it's advantages and flaws. For example, it gives you no reason to go into the "easier" areas once you are too experienced, meaning that in the upper levels you will see a lot of hell and nothing else. This get's boring very fast, and I prefer the multitude of settings you can enjoy while having a challenge in Oblivon.

Gandalf Parker

April 3rd, 2006, 01:28 PM

Diablo II is one that I enjoyed enough that I would enjoy it just as much if they redid it and offered it with no changes other than new maps. And even if they only worked in local mode.

As for the thing about usual keypresses not working, thats usually a sign that its being written for another platform.

OG_Gleep

April 3rd, 2006, 06:44 PM

Diablo falls into the Action RPG category, which can't be compared to traditional RPGs like Baldurs Gate and Oblivion.

And a MMO is inherently different then a offline RPG. MMO's can make design choices that aren't feasible in a offline RPG and vise versa.

I never did play Wizardry 8, so have no experience to respond from. But it sounds like you are more into the action/strategy RPGs then traditional crpgs. I enjoy all three, but trying to compare them because they share three letters may be where your going wrong. Most people lump them into the same category but imho they are three sperate genres.

Shining Force - Fire Emblem - Buck Rogers - Final Fantasy Tactics - Fallout Tactics

Diablo - Dungeon Seige - Xmen - Untold Legends - Never Winter Nights

Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

While comparisions work within the grouping, they just don't work once you start trying to compare them to games outside their genre. I think its a crying shame that games like Ground Control are compared to Warcraft. Take resource gathering/base building out of an RTS and its not a RTS anymore.

The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame. I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest. Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game....my play time will likely end when this character does.

So for me, its dissapointing that my main incentive to dungeon romp is about to dissapear. Yes mods are an option, but I'm not a graphic wiz, and I hate mods that use my old armor graphics, to "represent" something totally new.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Have mods with new graphics even come out yet? Most of the mods I have tried have been cosmetic or tweaks of some kind.

BTW if you haven't tried it, BTMod is awesome. They zoomed out the interface a bit...the inventory has 15 lines now instead of 6 for example. They changed almost every gui/interface related screen in some way. The map is zoomed out, which I like a lot better. Theres also a "pre-configured" options package available that provides screenshots of the different options, and instructions on how to install the files. The only complaint I had was the actual inventory screen..it was a little too small for me, so I had someone switch it to 10 lines, which is perfect. If anyone wants the file let me know.

Saber Cherry

April 3rd, 2006, 07:25 PM

OG_Gleep said:
The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame.

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

This is a terrible shame, and something I didn't expect at all! Fortunately, it is something that can be resolved by modders, since it's not an engine limitation. But having all the best gear early in the game would really bite. To me, it's similar to (but the inverse of) Blizzard's philosophy for World of Warcraft - expand the game by adding more content for level 60 characters, but never actually allow anyone to go beyond level 60. If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate - almost any piece of equipment you find can have random attributes, and (provided you're in a high-enough level area) there's always a chance of finding some awesome item that totally outclasses whatever you used before. And there were all kinds of effects, too, so it wasn't simply "Sword of +X" like in many games. Plus the gems (and runes, which I never used, as I had no exp. pack) allowed you to customize items...

Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system. In perhaps the dumbest moment of Blizzard game design ever, they even decided that all equipment bought in stores should be incomparably worse than the crappiest things (at a similar level) you can find, yet be priced roughly 10x as much. So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest.

Agreed, and disappointing.

Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game...

What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

OG_Gleep

April 3rd, 2006, 08:23 PM

Saber Cherry said:

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hehe was more reffering to the material rather then the weapon itself "Iron Longsword" "Steel Longsword" etc.

Honestly its been so long, I didn't even notice those were missing. There should atleast be 3-4 more material types...at the minimum. I actually skipped glass entirely. I went from Dwarvish to Ebony. Haven't even seen a Glass Long/Short Sword. Have found plenty of daggers though.

If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

In a online game, I am actually driven to hit the cap so I can get on with the "cool stuff". That part doesn't bother me. But your right that something has to drive me. The cool stuff has to be there, be it uber loot, or PvP bonuses (Dark Age of Camelot, and now WoW). In SP games, the journey is exciting, from level 1 to level x. Instead of getting access to it in chunks ala Online games, in SP games it has to be rationed. Feels like I blew my wad a little too early.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate....Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system.....So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

Ah but see, you made my point for me. It isn't irrelevant. While on paper Action, Strategy, Online, and Traditional RPGs might look smiliar the overall goals are different which defines what choices the developers make. In WoW, having a vibrant economy was important, in Diablo...making sure a player based economy flourishes wasn't a factor. Thats why you see a Diablo type item system in a lot of Action RPGs, and why its absent from MMO's. And want to ensure that an economy never sees the light of day? Make NPC Vendor equipment a viable choice for the player.

I agree with you 100% that for Action RPGs, there is no better loot system then Diablo's. But theres a reason its not the standard loot system for all RPG's.

The main flaw with the WoW system is it allows Ninja looters. That was my only complaint. Actually I was really impressed overall. The choices Blizzard made allowed the economy to be up, functional, and flourishing during the beta. Other games can't get one up years after going live.

Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game...

Saber Cherry said:What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Hehe no, I ment that the choices I made during character creation really only effected what level my skills were when I started, not which skills I had access to. You aren't denied access to anything actually. Pure Warriors can join the mage guild, Pure Mages can join the warriors guild. Theres no real incentive for me to do this all over again. If I play a Thief for instance, I'll still pick locks, I'll just do it better then my sword loving-heavy armor-potion chugging-hardly ever use magic Mage.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

Hehe we have been on opposite sides of this thread since the first day, but after all this I feel like I gave you more ammo to hate the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif.

This game is far from perfect, but I do feel I've gotten my $50 (or whatever it was) worth of entertainment. And thats all anyone can ask for.

alexti

April 4th, 2006, 12:38 AM

Saber Cherry said:

OG_Gleep said:
But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

I was thinking about console RPGs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

I think in Wizardry 8 only random encounters were scaled with your party level, not predefined areas. So it was much less of a problem.

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

alexti

April 4th, 2006, 12:41 AM

OG_Gleep said:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

Endoperez

April 4th, 2006, 02:27 AM

OG_Gleep, there's one thing I don't quite get. If I understood it correctly, you are saying that if Diablo had had a good plot, and thus had been a plot-based RPG, it should have used an inferior battle/loot system. Why?

Battles should be fun even in plot-based games, and better, unique random items could easily be given as quest awards instead of items the boss drops.

OG_Gleep

April 4th, 2006, 03:29 AM

alexti said:
Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

I think I understand what you were saying, but I don't understand why. What sub genres do they represent?

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

I never considered Star Control a Role Playing Game, and didn't know anyone else did either. I did a search for Star Control and Genre and it popped up a bunch of different things, including Roleplaying.
Honestly if it were released today I doubt it would be called a RPG at all. Now all types of games have "RPG elements".

Most non-linear games offer varying degrees of freedom in picking your own path through the game. Within the confines offline CRPG's I couldn't think of a example as she listed it. I don't remember Betryal of Krondor really well, but I don't think it fits her description, and I never played past Wizardry III (Might have been 2).

Endoperez

April 4th, 2006, 03:51 AM

Betrayal at Krondor had one plot, one "main quest" that advanced the story and might give you access to new areas. But instead of e.g. going straight to Krondor in he first chapter, you could wander around and do sub-quests. When I played it, I didn't get very far in the main plot, but completed many of the sub-quests, and had just awesome equipment for my characters.

In Star Control 2, there was a similar mainplot, but it was advanced more often by discussing with other races and then completing the sub-quests that by simply collecting resources and buying stuff, although buying information could help a lot. But you could go around, to any planet, try and contact all races you wanted, fight sny races you wanted, etc. You could disregard the plot, but of course wouldn't be able to complete it - especially as the plot for once could advance even without player doing anything.

(If you think Diablo is NOT a role-playing game, despite the mechanical similarities, then a game that underlines discussion, strong plot and even rises some moral questions should be dubbed an RPG - even if the mechanics are totally different. But Star Control 2 (anotherSC?!) usn't really the point of this discussion.)

I think that's pretty similar to Oblivion, actually. You have a main quest, which you eventually want to complete, but you can wander around and enjoy the many subquests and the many areas which are optional - at least at this point in the game.

OG_Gleep

April 4th, 2006, 04:07 AM

I don't know if its me or you but you seem to be taking everything I have been saying too far to the right and out of context.

A crappy plot didn't make diablo an Action-RPG. Its gameplay did (An action game with RPG elements). Just like a crappy battle or loot system doesn't make a rpg "traditional".

The context of what I was saying was SC comparing Diablo to WoW, and my point was thats not a fair comparison to make, as they are two totally different games types, with different core goals that decisions are based off of.

Its like trying to compare apples and oranges because they are both fruit, or they both grow. Its possible, but not exactly fair.

I am currently not happy with the loot table in oblivion, not the system. The system is perfectly fine, and the problem would be remidied with more options.

PrinzMegaherz

April 4th, 2006, 06:44 AM

Talking about Star Control does not aid this discussion either. The topic was whether Oblivion's skill system is broken, and Star Control has no skill system at all. You sure can improve your precursor battleship, but I think most people fight the battles with normal ships instead of the flagship.

However, if we speak about broken game mechanics, Star Control 2 would be another nice example. I completed the whole game using only the Spathi Eluder, and the AI has no way to handle the "fly away and launch torpedos backwards" strategy.

Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) + Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.

Endoperez

April 4th, 2006, 08:06 AM

OG_Gleep said:
I don't know if its me or you but you seem to be taking everything I have been saying too far to the right and out of context.

A crappy plot didn't make diablo an Action-RPG. Its gameplay did (An action game with RPG elements). Just like a crappy battle or loot system doesn't make a rpg "traditional".

The context of what I was saying was SC comparing Diablo to WoW, and my point was thats not a fair comparison to make, as they are two totally different games types, with different core goals that decisions are based off of.

Okay, I misunderstood your point about Diablo, and mechanics' role in defining genre. And it seems I should just learn to stay out of discussions that stray too far from the games I actually know well. I reread what you said about players' part in the games' internal economy, and I still don't get that. I enjoy Diablo/roguelike item generation, and I just don't see why that is bad in a MMORPG.

I'll try to refrain from posting. I should have better uses for my time than arguing about games which I haven't played. I have a nasty habit of just arguing for the sake of the argument, and it seems I have too much free time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Maybe I should just read a book.

Cainehill

April 4th, 2006, 09:17 AM

PrinzMegaherz said:
Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) + Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.

Note that they did improve the skill system in later patches, making it so that every skill affected something else : for instance, every point in the lowest level necromancer bone spray skill wound up improving bone shield (significantly), and bone spear / bone spirit by a percentage. Gave more options, but in a sense just made _new_ must have combinations of skills. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And the skill system had another benefit in a way : because players would get to level 50 and realize their skills sucked, they'd start a new character out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif People got a _lot_ of gameplay from Diablo II experimenting with different skill sets and builds. Plus, as people have mentioned, the item drop system was amazing (not counting ninja looters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

PrinzMegaherz

April 4th, 2006, 09:24 AM

Cainehill said:

PrinzMegaherz said:
Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.

Note that they did improve the skill system in later patches, making it so that every skill affected something else : for instance, every point in the lowest level necromancer bone spray skill wound up improving bone shield (significantly), and bone spear / bone spirit by a percentage. Gave more options, but in a sense just made _new_ must have combinations of skills. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And the skill system had another benefit in a way : because players would get to level 50 and realize their skills sucked, they'd start a new character out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif People got a _lot_ of gameplay from Diablo II experimenting with different skill sets and builds. Plus, as people have mentioned, the item drop system was amazing (not counting ninja looters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

Hm, maybe I should install Diablo 2 one more time and look at that new system. I love the cut scenes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

DominionsFan

April 4th, 2006, 10:51 AM

Imho old wizardry games were the best RPGs. Oblivion is an action RPG for me, it is not a real hardcore RPG. Personally I really missed the good old RPG games, I havent seen a decent RPG in the last 2 years.

Look at this "low budget" RPG:

Blades of Avernum:
http://www.avernum.com/blades/index.html

I swear this is much better as an RPG, then the new "high tech" RPGs. If you like RPG games, this is a must have.

Oversway

April 4th, 2006, 11:31 AM

Avernum is great. I have the first 3, although not Blades or Avernum 4, which I think recently came out.

OG_Gleep

April 4th, 2006, 02:51 PM

Its not bad per se, actually Guild wars uses a similar system of prefix/suffix randomness, and a fixed loot table for unique skill drops. The system was implemented well, but the economy was very unstable. Only the best items really had a stable market, items deemed less then uber, seemed to fluctuate. This would be a fair comparision to draw off of when talking about WoW or other MMO's because of similar considerations and such. Another good example from the two games that SC touched on is vendors. Guildwars has item enhancements...I forget what they are called. They used to have a market, until they introduced a NPC vendor that sold them. That essentially killed their value in the market all but the top tier became worthless.

I don't mind debating or arguing and I get that you were trying to make a point. Its just you seemed to misunderstand what I was saying in the first place, and I was trying to determine if it was my posts or how you were reading them.

And I disagree that SC is anything like oblivion, and I honestly don't think its a roleplaying game. That just my opinion.

OG_Gleep

April 4th, 2006, 02:56 PM

There is a solution for my problem with the Loot tables if anyone is interested. Several mods have released loot rarity plugins that basically extend the level requirements between seeing certain weapons and armor. As I understand it you'd be looking for top tier gear well into your 20s with these types of mods.

NTJedi

April 4th, 2006, 03:21 PM

DominionsFAN said:
Look at this "low budget" RPG:

Blades of Avernum:
http://www.avernum.com/blades/index.html

I swear this is much better as an RPG, then the new "high tech" RPGs. If you like RPG games, this is a must have.

Yes I found these games several months ago... the Avernum series use a fixed world which means limited replay value and Blades of Avernum has an editor unfortunately it's not very user friendly thus I contacted the developers to determine if a sequel would be released... the developers said 'very unlikely'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
If a Blades of Avernum_2 arrived with an updated editor I would definitely buy the game, but the current game and editor is too old. Thus I'm just waiting for NeverwinterNights_2.

OG_Gleep

April 4th, 2006, 10:16 PM

DominionsFAN said:
Imho old wizardry games were the best RPGs. Oblivion is an action RPG for me, it is not a real hardcore RPG. Personally I really missed the good old RPG games, I havent seen a decent RPG in the last 2 years.

Really? I personally don't think this comes close to being an action RPG. Maybe if you constantly went from dungeon to dungeon. The amount of time I am actually swining a sword is minimal compared to the total time in game.

I enjoyed Pools of Radience..I don't remember exactly when that came out. A lot of people liked Gothic II, though I never played it. It definatley feels like the old school party based RPG games have taken a back seat to hack and slash game play. The decision of bioware to go the route they did with Neverwinter nights really bummed me out. Fortunatley I played the whole thing via LAN with a buddy so it eased the pain. The reason I enjoyed PoR so much, was the absolute scarcity of that style of RPG. And buggy rushed games normally make me upset, but it didn't bother me at all while I was playing POR.

What level are you guys right now for those who have the game? And what mods do you currently have installed?

I just downloaded a new dungeon that is supposed to be pretty sweet, called the Forgotten tomb.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=336534

Other notables:
1. 2 new weapon and Armor mods. One mods the Imperial Armor to be on par with Daedric. The other adds a new armor type and weapon type. Basically the blade equipment that has the same stats as ebony.
2. Alchemy mod that chages the name of the Potions to the first effect. Ie: Restore Health + Restore Fatigue would be called Restore effect. The end effect is that all your potions are grouped together instead of being scattered all over.
3. BTMod - Basically changes every interface screen. I think I described it in an earlier post. Makes life much easier.
4. Increased Animal drops - Spend a whole bunch of time tracking down a deer and find 1 piece of meat sucks. This alters all animal loot.
5. Wizard Hovel haven't checked this out yet.
6. Worthless Crap Mod - Adds a nominal value to all items that were previously 0 gold.

Looking for more if you guys have any suggestions.

alexti

April 4th, 2006, 11:03 PM

OG_Gleep said:

alexti said:
Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

I think I understand what you were saying, but I don't understand why. What sub genres do they represent?

Not sure I understand the link between your first statement and second. Might be a language barrier. Originally you said that comparison work within a group and put pretty much all pure RPG into one group. However, the focus of these RPGs and their goals are different. The first group is story-centered. The second leans toward strategy and tactics and the third one is more in exploration and immersion direction (some of the games can be put in two groups). My point was that, for example, comparing combat in Oblivion to combat in Wizardry 8 and concluding that combat system in Oblivion is bad isn't really productive, because it's not what Oblivion tries to do.

OG_Gleep said:

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

I never considered Star Control a Role Playing Game, and didn't know anyone else did either. I did a search for Star Control and Genre and it popped up a bunch of different things, including Roleplaying.

Yeah, its genre is hard to define, but if you ignore action combat what is left is more or less RPG I suppose...

NTJedi

April 5th, 2006, 01:05 AM

OG_Gleep said:
It definatley feels like the old school party based RPG games have taken a back seat to hack and slash game play. The decision of bioware to go the route they did with Neverwinter nights really bummed me out.

Neverwinter Nights was a great game, not the campaign in the game... I mean the game. The game has a very deep diverse editor, multiplayer functionality, and never before seen a stable DM functionality. This game you can do simple hack-n-slash or download some deep complex story or control a world others play or create your own world or find something else to download. Thousands of modules are available for download... if one is bad simply move to the next. Not to mention the game did so great on sales it had two expansions.

OG_Gleep said:
... with Neverwinter nights really bummed me out. Fortunatley I played the whole thing via LAN with a buddy so it eased the pain.

You must mean the campaign within the game because there's no way someone could have played all the modules currently available for download unless their brain is plugged into their computer.
If you only played Neverwinter Nights for the campaign within the game then you only found 5% of its total game value.

Cainehill

April 5th, 2006, 02:02 AM

OG_Gleep said:
What level are you guys right now for those who have the game? And what mods do you currently have installed?

I've gotten to level 2 a couple times, only to have the (unmodded) game crash and lose my progress before I trained. Started looking at mods this morning, there's a couple that sound good - one that makes quest reward items level up (so doing a quest at level 5 doesn't screw you forever), and some others that change the screwed up skill / leveling concept.

What _I_ want though is a mod that just lets "I" bring up Inventory, and "M" bring up the map. Know any? *grin*

(Oh - some mods that speed up arrows / spells also seem like they might be cool.)

Hmm - Gothic 2 : You consider that ActionRPG a la Diablo, or what? I've been thinking about getting it, especially since I understand the gold version fixed a number of flaws.

DominionsFan

April 5th, 2006, 09:27 AM

Well I completed the game already, along with lot of side quests, I am a master with the fighter guilds etc.
The game is really awesome, but I wouldnt call it a real RPG. Well for me the real RPG is party based, the combat is turn based, the dungeons are much bigger with lot of traps and puzzles and I could continue. This is definitely an action RPG, but I guess this is what making the game sell very good, also the incredible graphics.
I think the old school hardcore RPGs wouldnt sell very good, so we cannot expect one to be released in the near future I guess...sadly..

Alneyan

April 5th, 2006, 11:10 AM

Cainehill said:
Hmm - Gothic 2 : You consider that ActionRPG a la Diablo, or what? I've been thinking about getting it, especially since I understand the gold version fixed a number of flaws.

Gothic II is kind of in the vein of the Elder Scrolls, at least at first glance. In Gothic you only play one character (either first person view or third person), it has its own skill system with crafting in particular, and it also focuses somewhat on guilds and the like. The game is relatively open-ended, at least in the way you can do things; its story is pretty much linear, near as I can tell.

That's about as far as the resemblance goes, though. Gothic II has a more subdued atmosphere, with less magic to go around than that other game, and a somewhat darker universe. I have found the world to be very engaging, in both town and countryside. Unlike in the Elder Scrolls, there are three classes with somewhat different paths, skills and quests, and your character level is actually relevant. The gameworld seems to be pretty much fixed; at least I know I got beaten up pretty quickly while strolling in some nasty places.

Gothic seems to do a relatively good job with the story and dialogue. I haven't seen any mention of Elves for starters (I haven't shed a tear for their sake). Dialogues don't go the Ultima VII style, but are instead of the "Pick the A, B or C line" variety. Characters aren't silent when you speak to them, unlike games coming from, say, Bioware. I know I mind commercial games without voice-acting very much these days; if all the game can do is show some pretty graphics, I'll do something else for my graphic needs and will stick to more textual-oriented games. Hmm, I digress.

The biggest problem I have with Gothic II is the German curse, though the game wasn't bit quite as bad as, say, the Anstoss series (most of them have not been released outside Germany, and the Anstoss games that have been translated were published under different games, just to make sure nobody can recognise them). It took the whole of two years for the add-on to be translated into English, thanks to a particularly talented publisher near as I know, and the game was released at a premium price (at least in France). $75 for a three-year old game, its add-on and their respective delays? Well, perhaps not then. Shame I don't understand German *very* well... hey PrinzMegaherz, will you marry me? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Cainehill

April 5th, 2006, 11:33 AM

Heh. Whereas here, Gothic II Gold (in English) (with an expansion that fixed some problems) is currently less than $20, making it worth considering.

PrinzMegaherz

April 5th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Alneyan said:
hey PrinzMegaherz, will you marry me? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Why not? It won't be long until we are all forced to convert to the Islam, so having a harem of my own won't be a problem.

Alneyan

April 5th, 2006, 11:59 AM

Bah, don't worry. All I need is some knowledge of German, and I'll be happy afterwards.

It's the same Gold version we have here... well, except that it is perhaps half-translated, and it's hard as hell to find a box. All major Internet sites I've found only offer Gothic II and (if I'm lucky) the add-on separately, for a total sum of... between 75&#8364; and 85&#8364;, shipping not included. A little bit under $100 I guess. Amazon can import Gothic II without the add-on from the UK for &#8364;25, or the Gold version from Germany for a mere &#8364;15... a bargain, if you are on speaking terms with Goethe.

Did I mention the publisher who was supposed to distribute Gothic II (the initial release, which we obtained a few months before the US if memory serves) has gone bankrupt a few months after the release? Of course, they didn't make much of a show of advertising the game either.

Morkilus

April 5th, 2006, 12:56 PM

What about gogamer.com? It doesn't say this version is German, and it's twenty bucks.

http://www.gogamer.com/cgi-bin/GoGamer.storefront/SESSIONID/Product/View/001GOT2G

Alneyan

April 5th, 2006, 01:52 PM

I was under the impression that Gogamer only shipped to the US, Alaska and Hawaii, along with US military bases abroad (looking at their Shipping options page). I know several other notable websites turned me down, including Amazon.com after several tries ("nope, product only ships to the US and Canada. Please look up your local Amazon website, and so on and so forth").

Not that international orders are an option for me these days, unless I *really* want it. No international debit card (either in my possession or in the hands of anyone I know) and shipping fees, that sort of thing. There still are a few import shops, though it has been dwindling of late. I miss my Amiga days (that was only ten years ago), where I had no trouble buying games imported straight from the UK.

Have I been digressing again?

OG_Gleep

April 5th, 2006, 03:45 PM

Well if you consider Oblivon an Action RPG, from what I understand as Alneyan said, the two games are in the same style. Gothic II if I remember right was given good reviews across the board, as was the recent gold edition.

I personally don't see either game as an action rpg ala diablo, dungeon siege, or NWN. From my memory, a lot of Oldschool RPGs were solo romps, but ya I too miss the party based systems.

Alexti, ya thats what I thought you ment, but for the purpose of the discussion the goal was to categorize the RPGs in their respective genre as while each took different approaches to it, they all shared the same goal ...deliver a compelling single player adventure through the use of the normal RPG tools. Even then my groupings probably would have been different (Pools of Raidence reminded me of BG for instance).

NT - ya I was referring to the main campaign. We did load up some of the modules, and I tried a couple of them myself once some of the big ones came out. I dunno, I just never liked the system. Create a new character specifically for the purpose of playing for 4 hours? Didn't see all that appealing to me.

NTJedi

April 5th, 2006, 04:23 PM

OG_Gleep said:
NT - ya I was referring to the main campaign. We did load up some of the modules, and I tried a couple of them myself once some of the big ones came out. I dunno, I just never liked the system. Create a new character specifically for the purpose of playing for 4 hours? Didn't see all that appealing to me.

Well if you felt your character was advancing too quickly some modules are available which slow down the speed. You could identify a slower speed and combine 3 or 4 modules using the same character.
Also you could always try playing a DM while you have friends/relatives explore a module you downloaded. I personally found this to be very fun... just remember with great power comes great responsibility.

OG_Gleep

April 5th, 2006, 06:20 PM

Hehe its not that speed of which I am leveling. I don't know the length of gameplay per module varies greatly. If you could say, use the same character and the modules were just new chapter in that characters life, then it would be awesome. Theres only so many ways you can roll a warrior, and I'm not a big fan of replaying for the same general experience (same skills, same loot progression, same combat sytle etc.) under a new story.

But thats not to say Neverwinter Nights isn't a great game or engine. You can see the engine at work in multiple games and I enjoyed them all. But due to its, and games that used the engines success, I doubt they will make another BG style RPG anytime soon.

PrinzMegaherz

April 5th, 2006, 07:13 PM

Alneyan said:
Bah, don't worry. All I need is some knowledge of German, and I'll be happy afterwards.

Interesting. I always thought that women need one man for money, one man to talk to and one man to have fun. I knew there was a fourth guy needed for speaking german.

Anyway, when I suggested to make a german translation of Dominions 3, everybody said "who would need that, everybody speaks english, it would not increase Illwinter's sales" and bla. Now you see how hard it can if there is an interesting game you would like to play in a language you do not understand. All games released in the german market have been translated, and while many people speak basic english, most won't understand the special terms used in Dom 3 regarding faith or mythology. I still think it would be a good idea to make the language at least moddable.

NTJedi

April 5th, 2006, 07:15 PM

OG_Gleep said:
Theres only so many ways you can roll a warrior, and I'm not a big fan of replaying for the same general experience (same skills, same loot progression, same combat sytle etc.) under a new story.

Each class has its own skills so if you've played all the classes 3 times then you've done all you can.
'same loot progression'? ... now that's not entirely accurate. Some modules have the basic diablo setup, some have a setup where loot is earned in towns, some have a setup where loot is earned thru quests, some using stealing as an option and the list goes on. Just need to ask on the NWN forums for what loot system interests you.
'same combat style' well that sort of varies between the type of character you are playing. And some modules are setup where you can choose to join the forces of good or evil or neither.

OG_Gleep said:
I doubt they will make another BG style RPG anytime soon.

Unfortunately true... many developers/publishers believe the future is in having the most fancy graphics even at the cost of less game content and smaller battlefields. Too bad no BG style games exist with a random game generator.
I'm waiting to see when the first RPG will have a random game generator. Otherwise once you play a game two or three times you know all the places, monsters and events.

OG_Gleep

April 5th, 2006, 11:32 PM

In D&D systems atleast, I tend to figure out what fits my playstyle first, re-rolling till I figure it out. So although there may be different ways to play a class, I'll find the one I like and go from there. I don't particularly enjoy "experiencing everything" a class has to offer. I also tend to play warrior classes in solo based games. And while there might be variations in playstyle between the Paladin types, Warrior types, and Berserker types, your still melee fighting. This is primarily why I enjoy party based systems. I get to try a little of everything while the game still holds my attention.

By loot progression I mean (and I'll use a generic example because I can't remember what the NWN loot table looked like) Level 1-3 Iron weapons/armor, Level 3 - 5 Steel weapons/armor, Level 5-7 Dwarven weapons/armor etc. etc. etc. Magical drops will vary, but the excitement of finding the "next more powerful item" is gone because you've already seen what that range of items can do.

More so then anything is what I mentioned with your character not carrying over from module to module limits my enjoyment of the module scene. The two factors listed above contribute a great deal to not wanting to roll another toon...but a large part is I get attatched to my character, and want to continue his adventures. Again thats just me.

Alneyan

April 6th, 2006, 07:54 AM

Regarding NWN, I'm pretty sure you can carry your character from one module to another... unless playing in multiplayer with a character vault, where you may be restricted to characters in the vault (and not your local characters). It's up to the game host, though. Of course, there *is* a problem with the actual firepower of your character: most mods recommend a relatively narrow of levels, though there is nothing to prevent you from going against their wishes.

PrinzMegaherz, would it help you if I told you I was a guy? Your avatar is clearly more feminine, though.

Not all German games have been translated, actually. On the top of my head, I can name Anstoss (starting from the third game in the series) or Mad TV II, and I'm pretty sure a couple others have not been translated either. Of course, that's only a few games compared to all the games left untranslated from English... but a lot more than the games only available in, say, French (I can't think of a game released in the last ten years that has been written in French and not translated). I guess your situation is a little bit better in that aspect.

I've always felt that the problem with translations is very simply the difficulty in finding interest in said translation. The people on these boards pretty much all know enough English to understand Dominions; if they did not, they probably wouldn't be reading and writing posts here. Players who don't know much about English are unlikely to hear about Dominions in the first place, so they cannot voice their interest, and without any (apparent) interest, there isn't much point in a translation. Hmm, looks like a Gordian knot.

OG_Gleep

April 6th, 2006, 03:39 PM

Right thats true, you could theoretically do that, but the original game capped at level 20. Some modules wanted you to be lvl 3, some were for level 10, some recommended totally new characters. Even if you ignored the character level recommendations, you would still hit that cap after completing a few of them. There may be some mods out now that are ment for players that have reached the CAP, but I didn't see them..and I don't know how much fun it is an option.

It just seemed to me that the module system was perfect for people who loved to "try everything" a game has to offer. I'm just not one of those people.

Vicious Love

April 7th, 2006, 11:43 AM

Getting back on topic, I couldn't help but notice that Bethesda:

A) Have not even implemented combat from horseback, nor any other remotely innovative feature. "Radiant AI" was more impressive in Ultima VII, where at least the NPCs did something other than stand in one location and stare at a wall for a few hours, then move elsewhere and do the same.

B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which
B1) Is moddable with negligible difficulty for the PC version of the game, and just a few shades more difficulty for the X-Box version.
B2) Was already completed long before Oblivion even went gold. As were most of their other overpriced upcoming expansions, I'll wager.

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

Graeme Dice

April 7th, 2006, 12:17 PM

Vicious Love said:
A) Have not even implemented combat from horseback, nor any other remotely innovative feature.

Why do people care about innovation? Innovation does not make a good game. It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword. If no combat from horseback is a dealbreaker, then I question whether you are the correct type of person to enjoy any game of this type in the first place.

"Radiant AI" was more impressive in Ultima VII, where at least the NPCs did something other than stand in one location and stare at a wall for a few hours, then move elsewhere and do the same.

Well, since they _don't_ just do that, I'd wonder whether you've even played Oblivion. Of course, since you haven't purchased it by your admission below, I'd certainly hope that you haven't played it yet.

B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which
B1) Is moddable with negligible difficulty for the PC version of the game, and just a few shades more difficulty for the X-Box version.
B2) Was already completed long before Oblivion even went gold. As were most of their other overpriced upcoming expansions, I'll wager.

Remember people, it's unethical for companies to charge for their products.

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Saber Cherry

April 7th, 2006, 03:28 PM

Vicious Love said:
B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which
B1) Is moddable with negligible difficulty for the PC version of the game, and just a few shades more difficulty for the X-Box version.
B2) Was already completed long before Oblivion even went gold. As were most of their other overpriced upcoming expansions, I'll wager.

Not to mention that Horse Armor went on sale before they bothered to implement horse reins. Players still gallop around with arms in "I am holding reins" position, but no reins. Hmmm... sounds like quality support.

PrinzMegaherz

April 7th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Graeme Dice said:
It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword.

No insults, please. The combat engine of Die by the Swords is light years ahead of the one used in Oblivion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

OG_Gleep

April 8th, 2006, 12:57 AM

Vicious Love said:
B) Nonetheless have the gall to charge US $2.50 for a meaningless little horse-related feature which

Quick response before I leave. I am not 100% on this, but from my limited exposure to xbox live, this is my take:

Its because of the Xbox 360. They are charging people for market place mods, and they can't give it to the PC people for free and still charge the console people. You will see a lot of this, the xbox 360 market place is ment for developers to offer Mod like content at a premium for the console market. Thats my take on the situation anyway.

PrinzMegaherz

April 8th, 2006, 05:52 AM

OG_Gleep said:
Quick response before I leave. I am not 100% on this, but from my limited exposure to xbox live, this is my take:

Its because of the Xbox 360. They are charging people for market place mods, and they can't give it to the PC people for free and still charge the console people. You will see a lot of this, the xbox 360 market place is ment for developers to offer Mod like content at a premium for the console market. Thats my take on the situation anyway.

I'm so sorry for poor Bethesda, forced by evil Microsoft to charge extra money for trivial updates...

Seriously, I hope noone buys those things. I would have expected Bethesda to release some seriously needed patches, instead they have the guts to offer things at 2.50$ that other companies provide for free.

Graeme Dice

April 8th, 2006, 10:16 AM

PrinzMegaherz said:
I would have expected Bethesda to release some seriously needed patches,

Such as?

PrinzMegaherz

April 8th, 2006, 11:49 AM

Graeme Dice said:

PrinzMegaherz said:
I would have expected Bethesda to release some seriously needed patches,

Such as?

A language patch for the non english versions. As I said before, the translation is terrible, many of the german texts make no sense at all, are half english half german. I heard similar things from the french version, so I assume that it's not only us.

I understand that those people that create the new content are not the people that would be working on such a patch.

PvK

April 11th, 2006, 12:00 AM

OG_Gleep said:
Skeletons will always be level 3 ... Skeleton warriors will always be level 6. If you enter a dungeon at level 1, you will face skeletons. If you eneter the same dungeon at level 5, you will face skeleton warriors. The equipment carried by each type of enemey improves the more you move up the chart. The top tier mob of each table will always be scaled to your level to provide a challenge for high level characters.
...
Certain Enemies, like Bandits, or Bosses, will always be +X above your level. A bandit leader for instance, will always be 7 levels above you, and will be given level appropriate equipment.
...
Honestly I don't know how else you would do it. Because of how opened eneded this game is, there is no way to know when someone will get to a certain quest. In order to keep a non-linear structure, and still provide a challenge the whole way through, I can't think of a better system.

Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PvK

shovah

April 11th, 2006, 01:48 PM

advice for would be gladiators: if for some reason your having trouble with the arena and are starting a new character try a kajhit born under the sign of the lover (dosnt really matter what skills you take). when you go into the arena cast lovers kiss on the enemy and enjoy 10 seconds of free beating then after that use eye of fear on them and shoot/chase and kill then while they flee in terror. this tactic does have a little trouble when facing 3 opponents so the best advice i have is eye of fear the strongest opponent and then paralyze another and kill the un-affected enemy. this brought me through ever single arena match at around lvl 6 or 7 on normal difficulty (i dont suggest using it on the gray prince, you should earn that victory yourself)

OG_Gleep

April 11th, 2006, 03:02 PM

The grey prince is the easiest fight =)

OG_Gleep

April 11th, 2006, 03:20 PM

PvK said:
Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PvK

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

PrinzMegaherz

April 11th, 2006, 07:50 PM

OG_Gleep said:

PvK said:
Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PvK

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

Well, if Cavedog had charged 2 dollars for each additional unit they made for total annihilation, they would propably own the whole world by now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

shovah

April 12th, 2006, 09:36 AM

true but thats not the point here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif.
on a different note what do you people enjoy doing in oblivion? my personal favourites are the dark brotherhood quests and the arena but having finished both of those i have little else to do.
my majors are: hand to hand, light armour, stealth, alchemy, athletics, acrobatics and marksman and i have a decent security.im a khajit with a decent selection of magic equipment (the arena champion armour, all the dark brotherhood rewards and the hands of midnight) and i have a huge amount of potions with lvl76 alchemy (doing alchemy is all i do now) so i really need something to do or i may just resort to the main quest and dungeon crawling (neither of which require much skill compared to assasination or arena battles so something else that actually requires more skill that being able to tap a button would be nice)

OG_Gleep

April 12th, 2006, 11:10 PM

Is it you know all your options and are choosing not to do them? Or you just don't know what to do? If its the latter, the sections for non-main quest line in the strategy book was way bigger then the main quest line. I can't find the book atm but I'd estimate its atleast 3times bigger.

Theres a buttload of misc quests, each town has a minimum of 3, and some of 6-7. Theres the Mage guild, which is not unroleplayingy since you are an alchemist. I'm not going to spoil it for you, but I believe you would find the reward for that very useful.

Had you not done the Arena, the fighters guild may have been unroleplayingy, but since you have...

The Thieves guild also fits with your skill set and gameplay choices, as Assasins and thieves share similar talents.

Apart from that, theres a lot of freeform quests, like the niniroot quest, the daedric shrine quests, vampire hunting etc etc.

My Alchemy is at 100, and I still havne't found any Master equipment. They can only be found as loot, or in certain dungeons.

Also, have you gone through all the random oblivion gates? At higher levels its very rewarding, as the stones you get can be used anywhere to enchant your armor and weapons. The world is filled with random gates...actually in my current mission I'm on for the Mage guild had me going in a dungeon. Before I entered it was a bright sunny day, and everything looked right in the surroundings. When I came out however, the sky was red and when I looked to my left there was a big huge honking oblivion gate. I thought that was very cool.

Have you found the two secret horses? I really want one of them.

I am working through the Mage Guild Quests, and after that I either plan to go through the deadric shrine quests, try to find the Master alchemy equipment, or get into the real-estate game. I only own one house at the moment, and its a pain to travel back to anvil when I'm in the east.

PrinzMegaherz - There are a lot of different models that have been tested or are in testing now. I'm not saying that I particularly like the fact that they chose to release one skin and charge $2.00 for it. But I wouldn't mind paying a preimum for proffesional quality content, and support the developers of a game or franchise that I'd like to see continue. Its not a new concept, a lot of amatuer mod teams cross over into the commercial realm. Why shouldn't they be compensated for releasing additional content? Would it be better to wait 6 months to a year for a $30 expansion pack? I am not upset that they are charging like a lot of people, and you seem to be, I am upset at the content they chose to sell.

shovah

April 13th, 2006, 09:53 AM

ive already started the theives guild, ive done the mages guild with a previous character and didnt exactly find it useful, ive practically completed the ninroot quest and i get bored rather quickly of the random quests.
and as for secret horses what are they, the only one i can think of that would qualify as secret is shadowmere (look really cool)

Cainehill

April 13th, 2006, 01:34 PM

There's apparently an immortal horse - getting it means you don't have to even think about spending $2 for the horse armor download.

OG_Gleep

April 13th, 2006, 06:34 PM

Really? I find it hard to stock certain ingredients.

The random quests? Are you reffering to the freeform (daedric shrines) or the misc quests.

shovah

April 13th, 2006, 06:41 PM

the misc quests, they all seem too short/simple.

edit: i have a question, do camelion effects stack? ive got a curiass of the spy with 20% cam and the hands of midnight that have +10% cam so do these stack or does only the highest count?

PvK

April 14th, 2006, 04:05 AM

OG_Gleep said:

PvK said:
Sadly, neither can many game designers, apparently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PvK

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

I was talking about all the fantasy games with broken game balance and the ruts they get stuck in warping the reality of their gameworlds to try to provide balanced play instead of fixing the balance problems.

As for paying for extra bits of content, I agree it _could_ be appropriate, but it looks like it is already being abused to nickle & dime people for silly things.

PvK

Vicious Love

April 14th, 2006, 04:28 PM

PvK said:
As for paying for extra bits of content, I agree it _could_ be appropriate, but it looks like it is already being abused to nickle & dime people for silly things.

PvK

Precisely. There's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for additional content, but this thing costs about 5% of the full price of the game. A few meshes and skins are not 5% of a game. I realize Bethesda aren't forcing this purchase on anyone, and buying a bland little micromod for more than it's worth is entirely the buyer's fault, but it still smacks of exploitation. Exploitation of overeager spendthrifts with a vestigial sense of finance, at best, but exploitation nonetheless. The fact that this content was complete long before the game was finished only makes Bethesda look that much worse.
I mean, think of how much either of Morrowind's expansions would have cost were they released in absurdly overpriced little packages like this.

Sure, the whole thing looks profitable on paper, and it's not like there's any breach of contract at play. Were there a contract between consumer and games publisher, I doubt it would include a "goodwill clause" which forces publishers to support the fanbase, release patches regularly, and charge reasonable prices(0.00 rupees, for instance) for their minimods. By that same token, there's nothing preventing performance artists from "entertaining" their audience with an hour-long show that consists of nothing more than a framed Polaroid of Phillip Glass duct-taped to an American Federal-era armoire under a blacklight.
Both practices are legitimate, and initially profitable, but both are miserly and petty enough to annoy the fanbase, and discourage them from purchasing any more of the publisher's/artists' products/services. Because they're sickeningly cheap tricks to pull.

Vicious Love

April 14th, 2006, 04:41 PM

OG_Gleep said:
Had you not done the Arena, the fighters guild may have been unroleplayingy, but since you have...
...
The Thieves guild also fits with your skill set and gameplay choices, as Assasins and thieves share similar talents.

Aren't there assassins who refuse to stoop to petty theft? Aren't there near-suicidal glory hounds who insist on fighting in the arena with nothing but mage skills, out of some sorta twisted, quintessentially elven inferiority issues?
I like to believe there's more to roleplaying than deciding whether you're a fighter, mage, thief or cleric.

Then again, I've never been able to "roleplay"(get remotely immersed, that is) with Morrowind.
I "buy" the premise of a game like Master of Orion because I get the distinct impression of other civilizations, with their own agenda, doing their own thang for their own reasons. Morrowind felt like nothing quite so much as a bunch of mannequins standing around, waiting for me to push their buttons*.
My point being, you could see the strings**, and that doesn't make for a very compelling world, in terms of immersion.

Also, ever notice how you can just casually loot a bunch of places in the game(the Balmora and Caldera mages' guilds spring to mind) for more gold than you can earn in a year or two of game time? Without using a single thief skill or spell? Hard to roleplay a thief when you have to force yourself to overlook these obvious treasure troves. But that brings us back to that whole metagaming grievance SC and I brought up earlier, and there's no real point to retreading that ground.

* Not that ordinary mannequins have buttons, but that's what makes Morrowind NPCs special.

** Not that mannequins have strings, either.

Morkilus

April 14th, 2006, 04:45 PM

(intentionally butchering your quote)

Vicious Love said:Phillip Glass duct-taped to an American Federal-era armoire under a blacklight.

Now THIS I would pay to see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

By the way, is this game the reason I can't get any more MP games in Dominions anymore? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif Or maybe I just need to bite the bullet and start a PBEM myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Vicious Love

April 14th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Graeme Dice said:

Vicious Love said:
A) Have not even implemented combat from horseback, nor any other remotely innovative feature.

Why do people care about innovation?

[/quote]

I dunno. Possibly because each and every preview of the game promised us volumes upon volumes of innovation?
Or possibly because many of us were fundamentally dissatisfied with many core aspects of Morrowind, and no innovation means no changing these core aspects?
Or maybe we just like the idea of game development not grinding to a screeching halt in the present day, because our games are perfectly all right as they currently are, and there's really nothing new to invent? If games like Oblivion don't take the vanguard, what will?

Innovation does not make a good game.

Every worthwhile computer game since Pong begs to differ. Innovation may not be sufficient, but without it you're just regurgitating the same old stuff with better graphics and a steeper price tag.

It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword.

Erm... no. It's not really much better than Fable's, either. And it can't begin to compare to Mount & Blade's system.

If no combat from horseback is a dealbreaker, then I question whether you are the correct type of person to enjoy any game of this type in the first place.

This is a cutting-art, state-of-the-edge game that uses a revolutionary third-party tree rendering program and an even more revolutionary "NPCs walk from point A to point B" system, and yet it can't afford to throw in a feature that was available in Daggerfall? I realize it would be a mite trickier to make it work, what with no longer using sprite-based graphics and all, but come on. Speaking of the Point A to Point B engine...

Well, since they _don't_ just do that, I'd wonder whether you've even played Oblivion. Of course, since you haven't purchased it by your admission below, I'd certainly hope that you haven't played it yet.

'fraid I have. It was decent, but you could still see the strings.

Remember people, it's unethical for companies to charge for their products.

See above. Honestly, this is just a cheap shot on behalf of BethSoft's marketing department.

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Go ahead, take a guess.

Graeme Dice

April 15th, 2006, 02:47 AM

Vicious Love said:
I dunno. Possibly because each and every preview of the game promised us volumes upon volumes of innovation?

Really? Can you provide a half-dozen or so previews that claim that the game will be innovative?

Or possibly because many of us were fundamentally dissatisfied with many core aspects of Morrowind, and no innovation means no changing these core aspects?

What core asects would you expect to change? It's still an Elder Scrolls game, so it's not like any reasonable person would expect radically different gameplay.

If games like Oblivion don't take the vanguard, what will?

I'd rather have a fun game than an innovative game.

Every worthwhile computer game since Pong begs to differ.

If you only consider innovative games to be worthwhile, then you must not enjoy very many computer games.

Innovation may not be sufficient, but without it you're just regurgitating the same old stuff with better graphics and a steeper price tag.

Well, since there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating games that are similar to old games but that have better graphics, I fail to see your complaint. Your complaint about price is also pure nonsense, since Morrowind and Oblivion both cost exactly the same numerical price: $59.99 CDN. Of course, that $59.99 CDN in 2006 for Oblivion is actually cheaper than the $59.99 CDN in 2002 for Morrowind. Game prices have dropped tremendously over the past 20 years.

Erm... no. It's not really much better than Fable's, either. And it can't begin to compare to Mount & Blade's system.

Mount and Blade has a gimmicky, easily exploited combat system that lets a character right out of the gate fight off a dozen attackers just by backpedaling and letting them form a single file line. Further, your demand that the combat be perfect is quite ridiculous. It doesn't need to be perfect, it merely needs to be good.

This is a cutting-art, state-of-the-edge game that uses a revolutionary third-party tree rendering program and an even more revolutionary "NPCs walk from point A to point B" system, and yet it can't afford to throw in a feature that was available in Daggerfall? I realize it would be a mite trickier to make it work, what with no longer using sprite-based graphics and all, but come on. Speaking of the Point A to Point B engine...

So let me ask you a simple question. What kind of actual gameplay value does combat from horseback add to a game?

'fraid I have. It was decent, but you could still see the strings.

You stated that you weren't going to support Bethesda with your money. That is a clear admission tha you haven't purchased the game. Further, if the game was "decent", by your own admission, then how can you possible have so much vitriol for it?

See above. Honestly, this is just a cheap shot on behalf of BethSoft's marketing department.

No, it's called an observation of the mindset of your typical person who feels that they are entitled to luxury goods at whatever price they want, rather than the price the seller decides to provide it at. Bethesda is perfectly within their rights to sell mods at whatever price they want to, since they have in no way shape, or form cheated you with your purchase. (Well, not your purchase, since you admitted that you won't be paying for the game even though you already played it.)

Very much doubt I'll be supporting this particular developer/publisher combo with my money.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Go ahead, take a guess.

[/quote]

Okay, you are making observations about the AI behaviour because you pirated the game. It's nice to see that you're now trying to cover up your admission that you either haven't purchased, or haven't played Oblivion. Please don't bother, since I have no real reason to want to deal with liars.

Graeme Dice

April 15th, 2006, 02:49 AM

Vicious Love said:
Also, ever notice how you can just casually loot a bunch of places in the game(the Balmora and Caldera mages' guilds spring to mind) for more gold than you can earn in a year or two of game time? Without using a single thief skill or spell?

If you can't earn more than the 10K or so gold you'd get from picking up the trash items in those guilds within a year of game time, then you aren't a particularly competent player.

Graeme Dice

April 15th, 2006, 02:52 AM

Vicious Love said:
Precisely. There's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for additional content, but this thing costs about 5% of the full price of the game. A few meshes and skins are not 5% of a game. I realize Bethesda aren't forcing this purchase on anyone, and buying a bland little micromod for more than it's worth is entirely the buyer's fault, but it still smacks of exploitation.

My, aren't you the disgruntled little communist! I wasn't aware that it was only moral to price content based on what fraction of the game that content represents. How foolish of me. It's a good thing I learned this from a self-admitted software pirate, or else I might never have realized it.

Vicious Love

April 15th, 2006, 05:05 AM

Graeme Dice said:
My, aren't you the disgruntled little communist! I wasn't aware that it was only moral to price content based on what fraction of the game that content represents. How foolish of me.

...

...

...

Communist?

I mean, I was expecting an irrational flame or two, but this is just... wow. I have no idea how to address that. Couple that with...

It's a good thing I learned this from a self-admitted software pirate,

...bearing in mind that I'd made no such admission, and it becomes clear that there's no point to continuing this flame war.

Cainehill

April 15th, 2006, 06:09 AM

For a change I'm not interested in getting into a flame fest but - someone may be a software pirate, Graeme. Someone might also have been a beta tester, which is _another_ way they could be playing the game without purchase.

Alneyan

April 15th, 2006, 06:33 AM

And incidentally, someone might actually have friends who happen to own the game. I know it's a bold idea, but it might just be the case, yaknow? Of course, I would be very surprised if such were to be the case... aren't we all supposed to be hermits?

Most if not all licences I have read allow the transfer of the licence to another party, provided that the previous owner removes the game from said computer. So the friends way stands even to a literal reading of the licence (unless the Oblivion EULA explicitly states the contrary).

Now Vicious Love, you are supposed to call him a bourgeois. No, really. Trust me on that one.

PDF

April 15th, 2006, 12:28 PM

All that debate about the honesty of the mod price ?
My, Graeme, I can't understand what you're doing : trying to disqualify people discontent by the attitude of the publishers who makes paying mods, and call them pirates ?

Agrajag

April 15th, 2006, 01:39 PM

I'd just like to point you to this here link: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gripes
This should cover most of the flaws of Oblivion, I believe.

Oh, and by the way, I've seen the Radiant AI at work, and it doesn't look very "radiant"... Atleast, I don't think people standing in the middle of the road staring straight ahead at some far-away wall is very "radiant"...

Morkilus

April 15th, 2006, 01:57 PM

Agrajag said:
Oh, and by the way, I've seen the Radiant AI at work, and it doesn't look very "radiant"... Atleast, I don't think people standing in the middle of the road staring straight ahead at some far-away wall is very "radiant"...

I've seen people do this downtown late at night, and I've been known to do this in hallways at work after long days of database work and posting to this site... maybe it's more realistic than you think? Is there no way to get drunk/high/bored/insane in Oblivion? If not, I will NOT buy this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Daynarr

April 15th, 2006, 02:38 PM

Morkilus said:

Agrajag said:
Oh, and by the way, I've seen the Radiant AI at work, and it doesn't look very "radiant"... Atleast, I don't think people standing in the middle of the road staring straight ahead at some far-away wall is very "radiant"...

I've seen people do this downtown late at night, and I've been known to do this in hallways at work after long days of database work and posting to this site... maybe it's more realistic than you think? Is there no way to get drunk/high/bored/insane in Oblivion? If not, I will NOT buy this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

shovah

April 15th, 2006, 03:08 PM

theres skooma, its a drug that makes your stronger and faster but your intelligence and agility plummit to a very low level so you basically cant cast spells and 1 hit will knock you over. im not sure about getting drunk because i sell all my alcaholic beverages

OG_Gleep

April 15th, 2006, 09:25 PM

I have close to 60k right now. I haven't been playing for a year, and only a tiny portion of that was gained through picking through the various guilds. Novice alchemy equipment can only take you so far.

OG_Gleep

April 15th, 2006, 09:44 PM

Shovah - yeah they stack. You can create a chamealon suit, and be invisible.

VL - Yeah you can roleplay a pure theif, or a pure fighter or pure whatever you want to do. But he said he finished the assasins guild...so...I guess you can stop after you have done that.

shovah

April 15th, 2006, 10:00 PM

ive taken it upon myself to kill people who insult me or my species, its kinda fun (too bad you cant kill important people)
so my low leveled characters achievements are:
arena grand champion
dark brotherhood listener
master alchemist
knight of the white stallion (dont ask)
somewhere in the thieves guild
a few others i cant think of

edit: thanks for clarifying the cameleon thing (i had a feeling they stacked since i could stand infront of people and not be noticed) but the problem now is finding a pair of cameleon greaves, boots and a helm. currently i have a spys curiass and the hands of midnight (20% cameleon, 30 sun damage and +10 hand to hand skill, not too bad especially for my level)
also if anyone wants a tip on how to quickly raise alchemy just fast travel to all the farms you have found and make a load of restore fatigue potions (can get quite alot of money too)

OG_Gleep

April 16th, 2006, 11:30 AM

Yep, restore fatigue pots is the easiest way to quickly raise alchemy and get a little cash. Unfortunatley, we both put alchemy as a main skill. This can lead to some inflated levels, and I would recommend anyone starting or who has just begun to not do so.

A caution shovah, about the chamelon thing. It makes you totally invisible, and since its a equipment buff, its constant. You will be able to basically do anything you want and the NPCs won't be able to see or target you. Sorta like god mode, except with the NPCs yelling for you to come out. Some people dig it, but the majority of the people said it sucked out any kind of challenge.

About the AI - I have seen some pretty cool things, and the fact that its not scripted...we are moving in the right direction. Its not perfect, but its a window at whats to come. I don't understand why there is so much negativity towards Oblivion. Reminds me of PS2 fanboys on a Xbox forum.

shovah

April 16th, 2006, 11:39 AM

dont worry, my short attention span means my chances of finding a full suit are next to nothing

Graeme Dice

April 17th, 2006, 03:16 AM

I mean, I was expecting an irrational flame or two, but this is just... wow. I have no idea how to address that. Couple that with...

Well, what on Earth would you call somebody who complains that a company is charging whatever price they want for a luxury good?

...bearing in mind that I'd made no such admission, and it becomes clear that there's no point to continuing this flame war.

Remember people. It's always better to ignore your opponents actual arguments and nitpick on a single issue, so that you can pretend that you won. Of course you admitted that you didn't purchase the game, since you quite clearly stated that you wouldn't be supporting Bethesda with your money.

Graeme Dice

April 17th, 2006, 03:19 AM

PDF said:
My, Graeme, I can't understand what you're doing : trying to disqualify people discontent by the attitude of the publishers who makes paying mods, and call them pirates ?

If you can't understand it, then perhaps you should go back and re-read the thread so that you can see where Vicious Love both claims to have played the game, and states that he won't be buying it in the very same post. Now, if he played it on somebody else's computer, then that would have been the obvious response to my initial suggestion that he didn't purchase the game. It might also serve you well to figure out that there's a difference between calling a software pirate a pirate, and calling people who are upset that they can't get their luxuries for whatever price they want pirates. I did the first, I didn't do the latter.

Graeme Dice

April 17th, 2006, 03:20 AM

shovah said:
dont worry, my short attention span means my chances of finding a full suit are next to nothing

You don't find it, you have it made for you.

DominionsFan

April 17th, 2006, 07:09 AM

Graeme, I dont think that you should accuse someone with piracy. For example my friend also tried the game using my copy, and my brother also, and they both decided that they dont want to buy the game, since they disliked it.

Cainehill

April 17th, 2006, 10:54 AM

DominionsFAN said:
Graeme, I dont think that you should accuse someone with piracy. For example my friend also tried the game using my copy, and my brother also, and they both decided that they dont want to buy the game, since they disliked it.

But the EULA for Oblivion says that no one else is allowed to play your version of the game. Didn't you read it all before clicking "I accept" while installing??? For that matter, you aren't allowed to let people watch you play, because Oblivion's near-cinematic experience is a Single Player game! If someone else wants to see it, they have to buy a ticket! You sir are a pirate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(/end tongue-in-cheek)

Morkilus

April 17th, 2006, 01:41 PM

That crazy Van-Gogh looking guy... always forgetting to start his tongue-in-cheek tags correctly. On the matter of EULAs, you should try buying a new version of Space Empires IV from Strategy First. You get one install, and then you're done! Unless you want to send about half a dozen emails over a week to convince them that you really deleted the copy from your old computer, you better like the hard drive to which you install.

Lets see if we can get this thread longer than the wishlist! Come on guys, you aren't really trying!

shovah

April 17th, 2006, 02:27 PM

we are trying, how dare you even think that we arent!

DominionsFan

April 17th, 2006, 05:59 PM

Cainehill said:

DominionsFAN said:
Graeme, I dont think that you should accuse someone with piracy. For example my friend also tried the game using my copy, and my brother also, and they both decided that they dont want to buy the game, since they disliked it.

But the EULA for Oblivion says that no one else is allowed to play your version of the game. Didn't you read it all before clicking "I accept" while installing??? For that matter, you aren't allowed to let people watch you play, because Oblivion's near-cinematic experience is a Single Player game! If someone else wants to see it, they have to buy a ticket! You sir are a pirate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(/end tongue-in-cheek)

Nope tbh I didnt read it. Are you serious that someone is not allowed to try out the game using my original disc? This is just making no sense. That person wont copy it or anything, just taking a look at the game, it is acting like a demo or something..wow if this is true, this is pretty dumb I must say.

shovah

April 17th, 2006, 06:52 PM

thing is, what if said person copys it and you dont know, then they say they bought it.

Cainehill

April 21st, 2006, 12:28 AM

Must say - one of the things that I'm hating _most_ about Oblivion is the screwed up interface. Seems that even the UI mods can't give a sane user interface where you could press something like 'M' for map, 'I' for inventory, etc.

Agrajag

April 21st, 2006, 04:23 AM

There is F1 for stats, F2 for inventory, F3 for spells and F4 for maps.
If it bothers you that much, just download AutoHotKey and script M to simulate pressing F4, I to simulate pressing F2 etc. (although I agree the interface is quite screwed up, and that you shouldn't have to do these work-arounds)

OG_Gleep

April 21st, 2006, 05:17 AM

DominionsFan, why wouldn't you think that is piracy? I never read the "do you accept these terms" screens, but its pretty obvious that what they are saying is "this game is only ment for you, don't share it dillhole".

But ya we got screwed thanks to the pc/console development. I don't know why it would be so hard to design the entire game then split off and do sperate interfaces.

Alneyan

April 21st, 2006, 05:57 AM

You should start reading EULAs sometime; it can be pretty fun, and there are often clauses that you might find surprising. For example, unless I'm grossly misremembering, there should be something interesting in the Oblivion EULA about mods and their ownership.

I still have a fond memory of Freespace 2 and its "You may make copies of the Software for your personal noncommercial use and to give to friends and acquaintances on a no cost noncommercial basis" clause (in the in-game EULA). Don't worry, most EULAs don't give you this freedom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

DominionsFan

April 21st, 2006, 06:09 AM

I read it now....I never thought that theres some **** like this in the EULA. I only gave it out for a try to a trusted friend, because there was no demo for the game, so he could try it out. Anyways I find this stupid. Sure you cant be sure that someone wont copy the original disc, I can understand that, but if the person is not a pirate, he wont do it anyways. If he would be a pirate, he would just download the game. Btw I heard that you can make backup copies about any game, if only you are using it. Is this true? What is the point in this, if this is true? Now this sounds like pirating a game!

Cainehill

April 21st, 2006, 10:03 AM

DominionsFAN said:
I read it now....I never thought that theres some **** like this in the EULA. I only gave it out for a try to a trusted friend, because there was no demo for the game, so he could try it out. Anyways I find this stupid. Sure you cant be sure that someone wont copy the original disc, I can understand that, but if the person is not a pirate, he wont do it anyways. If he would be a pirate, he would just download the game.

Gee - "if he would be a pirate he would just download it"? Yep, _IF_ he had broadband connection good enough to download several gigabytes, _IF_ he wanted to trust that the crackers didn't put viruses, worms, or trojans into the game. No wonder companies want to put copy protection on their games.

Y'know : if you're naive enough to think that giving away the game to friends "isn't piracy", I have my doubts as to whether or not you know if any of the games you have use StarForce copy protection.

DominionsFan

April 21st, 2006, 12:11 PM

Cainehill said:

DominionsFAN said:
I read it now....I never thought that theres some **** like this in the EULA. I only gave it out for a try to a trusted friend, because there was no demo for the game, so he could try it out. Anyways I find this stupid. Sure you cant be sure that someone wont copy the original disc, I can understand that, but if the person is not a pirate, he wont do it anyways. If he would be a pirate, he would just download the game.

Gee - "if he would be a pirate he would just download it"? Yep, _IF_ he had broadband connection good enough to download several gigabytes, _IF_ he wanted to trust that the crackers didn't put viruses, worms, or trojans into the game. No wonder companies want to put copy protection on their games.

Y'know : if you're naive enough to think that giving away the game to friends "isn't piracy", I have my doubts as to whether or not you know if any of the games you have use StarForce copy protection.

Well that was my opinion what I posted about this. What did you meant about Starforce protection? I know that some of my games using the SF method, but what was your point in that?

Cainehill

April 21st, 2006, 01:18 PM

DominionsFAN said:

Cainehill said:
Y'know : if you're naive enough to think that giving away the game to friends "isn't piracy", I have my doubts as to whether or not you know if any of the games you have use StarForce copy protection.

Well that was my opinion what I posted about this. What did you meant about Starforce protection? I know that some of my games using the SF method, but what was your point in that?

You posted in another thread that StarForce wasn't causing you any problems. Frankly, I don't think you know what kind of copy protection is on your games, so my point is that your comments about StarForce not causing problems should be taken with skepticism. It's well known to cause a LOT of problems, even with up-to-date computers and versions of Windows XP. So odds are that you either don't have SF protected games, or you aren't savvy enough to know when your computer isn't working properly.

Morkilus

April 21st, 2006, 01:29 PM

Yeah... defending Starforce, even by saying you personally haven't had any problems... is not very "cool" in internet forums.

DominionsFan

April 21st, 2006, 07:24 PM

Yes ofc I got SF protected games, like Chaos League + expansion and some others. I never had problems with my DVD burner, HDD, windows, etc. and I know that my friends never had problems with it either.
I always thought that this SF hysteria is because of the pirates. This is the only real good protection method. If you ask me, the biggest whiners are the pirates themselves. Now that many company dropped SF, the pirates can be much happier. Well if SF is causing problems like you said, I am pretty sure that the SF devs can fix those. This is a decent protection idea, it would be a shame if it would be wasted like this. I hope that the SF devs can fix these things real fast, so no1 will have any problems.

Cainehill

April 21st, 2006, 07:47 PM

DominionsFAN said:
I always thought that this SF hysteria is because of the pirates. This is the only real good protection method. If you ask me, the biggest whiners are the pirates themselves.

*snicker* Yep, "Pirates" like the writer for one of the established computer gaming sites / magazines, who just wrote an article about how he hadn't been able to do any gaming since before Christmas. Several hundred hours tracking down and correcting the problems - which turned out to have been caused by StarForce.

Now that many company dropped SF, the pirates can be much happier.

Pirates like .... you? I mean, you're the only one I know here who's actually posted and mentioned loaning a game to friends.

In any case : StarForce as a company is scum. They've put up phoney web-sites full of phony testimonials about how StarForce was safe. They've basically attempted extortion, getting pissed off when a developer refused to use their (or any other) copy-protection, and posting a link to where people could download pirated copies of the game in question.

Note that, with _zero_ copy protection, StarDock's Galactic Civilizations 2 has made it to the best seller charts, and some weeks has been the #1 selling computer game at places like Walmart. Pretty damn good for an independent developer / publisher. Yep, pirates and the lack of copy protection has really hurt them, and it's _so_ great that StarForce was looking out for them by ... telling people where to download pirated copies of their game.

DominionsFan

April 21st, 2006, 09:05 PM

You cant call me a pirate, I had no idea that I cannot borrow my game when I want. I never ever read things like this when I install a game, and I never look at this part in the manuals. Perhaps it was a mistake, anyways I still dont think that this is right...I mean if the other person won't make a backup from the original disc, why is that so bad? Well maybe they can sell less copies, because if that person didnt liked the game he/she wont buy it. This is true...still this is way too hardcore for me and a bit laughable. Why? Because everyone can download games from the internet, and they are making an EULA like this.

Starforce: I dont care what they did, I only posted that the protection itself is decent. You cannot deny that. SF could be a good start for an "ultimate" protection method, since the only real way to protect discs must be connected with hardware protection. I think the latest securom using somekind of method like this now, but I am unsure.

Btw cainehill let me ask you a question. If your very close friend would ask you: "Hey, can I try out this game for a day?" Honestly what would you answer?

Saber Cherry

April 21st, 2006, 10:12 PM

DominionsFAN said:
Starforce: I dont care what they did, I only posted that the protection itself is decent. You cannot deny that.

Of course that can be denied! Starforce disables your disk-burning capability, and randomly reboots your computer when the "drivers" decide they can't verify you aren't doing something "wrong". It breaks optical drives by forcing them to work in an old compatibility mode that causes damage to modern hardware. This is all well-documented. It does NOT prevent piracy - you can still download the games on the internet, still "loan" them to friends, etc. What do you claim Starforce accomplishes? It is not decent in either effectiveness or side-effects, and the people who make it are evil.

Cainehill

April 22nd, 2006, 12:00 AM

DominionsFAN said:
You cant call me a pirate, I had no idea that I cannot borrow my game when I want. I never ever read things like this when I install a game, and I never look at this part in the manuals.

I can't call you a pirate? If some retard doesn't read the laws concerning counterfeit money, they're not a counterfeiter? "I didn't know I couldn't copy the money for my friends - I had no idea they'd make copies too!"

You, sir, are either a hypocrit or a moron. That "Ultimate protection" you talk about can easily be done by killing hardware components on the computers it's installed on - and you seem to agree with it.

And, "btw" :

[/quote] cainehill let me ask you a question. If your very close friend would ask you: "Hey, can I try out this game for a day?" Honestly what would you answer?

[/quote] :

I'd say : bring over a growler of beer and check it out. In other flooding words : they'd play it on my computer, it'd be a social occasion with beer or wine and music, and there'd be no chance of piracy going on. But then - you don't have friends who'd come over, eh?