Anti SC spells

[WraithLord]

Or more particularly, what Anti SC spells are in existence in earth and nature schools?

I'm talking about your average SC, for example, a troll king with wraithsword.

TIA

[Daynarr]

Petrify is probably best anti SC spell for earth and overall. Even if it doesn't kill it will paralyze enemy.

[Turin]

But it has the downside that it will be cast only once or twice in a battle because of high path requirements. Much better are the spammable instakills with an mr check and lower path requirements. Nature has stream of life, which works very well, especially since you need n3 anyway for relief spamming.

[NTJedi]

Magots is a cheap nature spell which does constant damage to undead... my guess is it's like decay but only for undead. Personally I almost never see this spell used.

Petrify is definitely one of the best.

.... and why just spells... why not an ethereal crossbow?

also disintegrate is a nasty death spell.

[quantum_mechani]

Turin said:
But it has the downside that it will be cast only once or twice in a battle because of high path requirements. Much better are the spammable instakills with an mr check and lower path requirements. Nature has stream of life, which works very well, especially since you need n3 anyway for relief spamming.

Eagle eyes + sleep can also work, and is very easy low research level.

[Endoperez]

NTJedi's Ethereal crossbow made me think of Astral Weapon, and if it can be used on magical bows. Good precision, from Eye of Aiming, Aim or Eagle Eyes, and S1 for casting Astral Weapon. There aren't any magical bows with huge damage, though.

Vision's Foe isn't bad, neither is Black Bow of Botulf.

[WraithLord]

These are all great ideas! Thanks guys!

Ethereal xbow I'm already familiar with and I know it works well.
Astral weapons on magical bow also seems worth trying.
I am giving much hope into the eagle eyes+sleep combo, would it be effective vs. undead SCs as well?

[Oversway]

nature also has charm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

shatter is good earth spell against golems

does polymorph count for nature? I've never seen it used, much less against scs.

[shovah]

Endoperez said:
NTJedi's Ethereal crossbow made me think of Astral Weapon, and if it can be used on magical bows. Good precision, from Eye of Aiming, Aim or Eagle Eyes, and S1 for casting Astral Weapon. There aren't any magical bows with huge damage, though.

Vision's Foe isn't bad, neither is Black Bow of Botulf.



astral weapon+eagle eyes+bow of war if possible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif that could be fun

[Cainehill]

Might be okay for armies, but not for killing SCs.

[Vicious Love]

Cainehill said:
Might be okay for armies, but not for killing SCs.



I dunno. Combine the Eagle Eyes boost with Aim or Wind Guide, and you can count on most of the arrows hitting an Ice Devil sized target at medium range. That would at least put a sizeable dent in your run-off-the-mill SC, assuming he isn't Air Shielded. Which he is.

[Edi]

Oversway said:

nature also has charm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Indeed. And it can really ruin your day. I remember when I played a co-op game with Kaljamaha on the Small Faerun map with him as Vanheim, he summoned both earth kings, Father Illearth and a lot of other stuff and built at least half of the good artifacts. Sent both earth kings, equipped with all the goodies, against Earthmother in Gwynneth. With the result that his screen of chaff killed the wolves, didn't put a dent in the seasonal spirits and about that time the battle ended. Next report out of Gwynneth: "The army consists mainly of <list seasonal spirits>. It is commanded by Earthmother the Great Mother who radiates power. A huge King of the Mountains was also seen towering over the army."

Kaljamaha obviously wasn't pleased...

Edi

[quantum_mechani]

WraithLord said:
I am giving much hope into the eagle eyes+sleep combo, would it be effective vs. undead SCs as well?

Should work as well as vs. anything else.

[Saber Cherry]

Gifts from Heaven is the best anti-SC spell, if you have a caster with high precision. But that's for SCs. Thugs can be taken out with militia and a Totem Shield, if there aren't very many of them. Blind is nice too, once you get it, and Drain Life is also very effective when in range. Sometimes I send a thug to the Arena, and when I lose to a mage, it's usually from Drain Life.

With regards to sleep, I don't recommend it because it has an MR save. I didn't think it worked on undead, but even if it does, undead thugs have high MR.

[quantum_mechani]

Saber Cherry said:
Gifts from Heaven is the best anti-SC spell, if you have a caster with high precision. But that's for SCs. Thugs can be taken out with militia and a Totem Shield, if there aren't very many of them. Blind is nice too, once you get it, and Drain Life is also very effective when in range. Sometimes I send a thug to the Arena, and when I lose to a mage, it's usually from Drain Life.

With regards to sleep, I don't recommend it because it has an MR save. I didn't think it worked on undead, but even if it does, undead thugs have high MR.

Spells like gifts from heaven and drain life are certainly preferable if you have access to them. But when you are behind in research or constrained by your magic paths, sleep + eagle eyes can become a very attractive (or even only) option.

[OG_Gleep]

I can never get the Eth Xbow to hit a SC.

[NTJedi]

OG_Gleep ...

Precision of the unit holding the ethereal crossbow

Shoot at the type of SC so if it's a flyer... set command for shoot flyer... if it's a larger tartarian set command for shoot largest.

Spells like eagle eye or aim help if that unit has them

don't bring a single commander with an ethereal crossbow... I would recommend 2 or 3.

[Morkilus]

How about disintegrate? In my SP game last night, I assaulted the Pythium fort and spammed disintegrate with Onyx amazons, and to my surprise and pleasure, it killed their Naga pretender in the first shot, even with a load of other troops around. And it makes a cool shattering noise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[NTJedi]

Yes disintegrate works too... I recommended this in a previous post as well.

[Cainehill]

Believe the Ethereal Crossbow has an MR check, so many SC types will be able to ignore it, especially as the items that aid in overcoming MR only affect actual spells that are cast, and not weapons / attacks with MR effects.

[Endoperez]

It's not that much worse than Soul Slay without penetration helpers... And it's much cheaper, as S1 mage can do it, and need not even be the one to use it.

[shovah]

yea, you could always stick the bow on a cheap little commander and hope for the best (or a n1 mage scripted to eagle eyes, fire large enemy)

[st.patrik]

there are MR checks on a bunch of otherwise-possible SC counters. Once you get your Ice Devil up to 24 or so it's really unlikely that anything that requires a MR check will work.

[WraithLord]

st.patrik said:
there are MR checks on a bunch of otherwise-possible SC counters. Once you get your Ice Devil up to 24 or so it's really unlikely that anything that requires a MR check will work.


Hmmm... I wonder if we can compile a list of non MR checked spells and items. Or at least maybe say, the top five in effectiveness. a possible list:
ethereal xbow (I'm not sure if there is a MR check)
Gifts from heaven
drain life
???
???

[Endoperez]

Ethereal crossbow has a magic resistance check. It imitates save-or-die after all, and would be "slightly" over-powered without the save part.

There are many items and spells which can cause extreme damage, but those are not what are most easily used against the SCs. Gate Cleaver would deal huge amount of armor-negating damage, and is only negated by high defense. Petrify, on the other hand, has an effect even if the target saves, doesn't risk losing expensive equipment, can be used from range, etc. The most useful spellsfor taking down SCs are discussed in this thread.

[shovah]

1 or 2 mages that can petrify along with anything capable of killing an sc (even gatecleaver weilders).

how about 1 or 2 mages scripted to petrify, retreat and a small amount of banefire archers? that would be pretty nasty.

[OG_Gleep]

What about Charm/Enslave/Hellbind Heart? What kind of penetration would you need to have a good chance of success against the Royalty, or the blood pool (icedevils and up)?

Also a note on blind, I have been fighting Abysia in one of my games, and am using Ice devils to good effect. I have shrugged of multiple attempts to blind me. The majority of my casters in most games need boosters, spell boosters, or just meet the minimum requirements to cast the spell. Obviously all these spells become really effective when cast by your pretender who happens to have 9 of the required school.

But what about national/indie mages that needed don't recieve the bonus for surpassing the minimum requirements? Of the spells listed, how many mages do you need casting them to have a good chance at success?

[Morkilus]

I tried spamming Enslave Mind on Nah's AQ's to absolutely no effect, about three different times. They were all at the minimum path req, and got about 5 or 6 off before they died. Do you need to Communion and have a whole bunch of items to get this spell to work?

[shovah]

against things like royalty a heavy communion (or a 9 astral pretender with spell focus and rune smasher) or huge masses of spell focus+rune smasher weilders is required (try arco, a bunch of astrologers with spell focus, rune smasher, girdle of might, boots of the messenger and an e9 bless gives them a good chance of enslaving something and enough reinvig to spam till the cows come home)

[Morkilus]

That's one think I still lack the skill to do, is construct an uber-powerful mage squad. I've seen ridiculous things like 40-50 harabs spamming lightning bolts, and 20-30 c'tis skelly spammers... but nothing that can take out a wrathing AQ or ridiculously high-MR, 100% resistance'd tartarian. Maybe it's time to start a new thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saber Cherry]

Bow of... Botulf? Requires no MR save.

Vengeance of the Dead has an MR save, but you can cast it remotely to take advantage of your highest-astral unit with the most penaids. This will kill anything that cannot regenerate or reinvigorate fast enough to survive unlimited attackers, as they increase (by up to 2X) with each casting. I had a very, very high HP unit (...over 500) die to this by killing itself with its own Sword of Many Colors, along with several hundred opponents.

Horror Mark + Send Horror can often kill supercombattants that rely on high protection, fear, trample, ethereality, or some other effects.

[OG_Gleep]

Did you have any penetration items mork?

SC does that spell work on a moving opponent? Or was the SC you mentioned stationary?

[Cainehill]

Saber Cherry said:
Bow of... Botulf? Requires no MR save.




But doesn't do much against a true brute : well equiped tartarian, terrasque, etc. Gee - it can't cast magic, but it still has 400 HPs and is killing everything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Vengeance of the Dead has an MR save, but you can cast it remotely to take advantage of your highest-astral unit with the most penaids. This will kill anything that cannot regenerate or reinvigorate fast enough to survive unlimited attackers, as they increase (by up to 2X) with each casting. I had a very, very high HP unit (...over 500) die to this by killing itself with its own Sword of Many Colors, along with several hundred opponents.




Using VotD I have been very unimpressed : about 12 castings, it never caused a battle. And the most recent time it was cast on me successfully : it targetted a lore master who I don't think had ever been in battle. He picked up a wound, but got a heroic ability from going into the HoF.

You saying that it doesn't matter so much the magic level, but anti-MR items helps it go through?

[Saber Cherry]

Bow of Botulf causes feeblemindedness, which decreases stats as well as nerfing casters. Most SCs in my experience buff before combat, but I haven't encountered any hostile Iron Dragons yet, for example.

MR-breaking items are much more important than magic levels, since each point of penetration is worth 2 astral levels. It's not a very expensive spell, either.

Assassination by Eye Shield / Totem Shield / Suicide Bomb / Bane Blade / Damned Dagger / Flesheater / Fever Fetish / Eye of Aiming - equipped assassin can be effective against some SCs.

[shovah]

0r if for some reason all his misc slots arent full send a bunch of lycan weilding commanders at him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Saber Cherry]

shovah said:
0r if for some reason all his misc slots arent full send a bunch of lycan weilding commanders at him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



I have to admit I've never actually made one of those. Would they turn an Ice Devil into a mere werewolf?

[WraithLord]

In several MP games that I have played as pythium I used a combination of three MR attacks on SCs.
1. Commanders with eye of aiming and ethereal xbow. Works so so against weak SCs.
2. A. theurgs with rune smasher and spell focus casting Mind hunt (of course after making sure there aren't any astral mages in presence). Works very well, even against high MR SCs (probably due to the fact that there are multiple mind hunters).
3. Crazy communions. Usually bless of e4,s9 and more then 16 communicants with theurgs equiped with spell focus and rune smashers. This works ok, but usually the AI will try to enslave mind instead of soul slay and I think enslave minds is easier to resist so it takes a *lot* of enslave mind attempts to succeed.

Oh and S9 pretender can help with 2 and 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I have started this thread to learn more about non astral SC killers, specifically in the schools of nature and earth. In those schools, as far as I understand from the posts in this thread, there are petrify and sleep.

This thread contains some fairly important tips so I'll probably add it to my dom-II KB /threads/images/Graemlins/ArrowRight.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon13.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Saber Cherry]

WraithLord said:
I have started this thread to learn more about non astral SC killers, specifically in the schools of nature and earth. In those schools, as far as I understand from the posts in this thread, there are petrify and sleep.



Ummmm...?

Gifts, Magma Bolts, Shatter, Curse, Maggots, Weapons of Sharpness (+barbarians)...

Some of these combat spells were suggested, in addition to many other non-combat-spell methods from those paths.

[OG_Gleep]

Has any one succesfully assasinated one of the big boys? Elemental Royalty, High level blood summons, the Big undead (TT's...and well TT's), or Combat Pretneders?

A flying assasin with Mage bane could be really succesful.

Also, there are a ton of Undead specific spells in most of the schools. Do any of them work against Tatarians? Are any additional items needed?

And about Lycos amulets:

Wish used a bunch of black servants equipped with them. Each one took out one of my commanders...normally the worst possible commanders picked them up. My 380g Vandrott Prophet (water random), and my Dragon pretender both changed into Shapeshifters.

[WraithLord]

Saber Cherry said:

WraithLord said:
I have started this thread to learn more about non astral SC killers, specifically in the schools of nature and earth. In those schools, as far as I understand from the posts in this thread, there are petrify and sleep.



Ummmm...?

Gifts, Magma Bolts, Shatter, Curse, Maggots, Weapons of Sharpness (+barbarians)...

Some of these combat spells were suggested, in addition to many other non-combat-spell methods from those paths.

I like the sound of the last one, weapons of Sharpnes + barbarians, sounds nasty. Has anyone really tried that combo?

[Wish]

yeah, I use the lycos amulets on black servants because it both makes them berserk immediately, and gives them a touch of regen and strength (to make their lifedrain better)

the fact that they took out important commanders, even when they died, was an added bonus. The trick to beat that, of course, is to fill your commanders misc slots, even with junk.

[shovah]

Saber Cherry said:

shovah said:
0r if for some reason all his misc slots arent full send a bunch of lycan weilding commanders at him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



I have to admit I've never actually made one of those. Would they turn an Ice Devil into a mere werewolf?



yes, they would http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[WraithLord]

shovah said:

Saber Cherry said:

shovah said:
0r if for some reason all his misc slots arent full send a bunch of lycan weilding commanders at him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



I have to admit I've never actually made one of those. Would they turn an Ice Devil into a mere werewolf?



yes, they would http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif


And is it possible to resummon it?

[OG_Gleep]

No I don't think so, your chassis is a shapeshifter, but the monster is still the unique character.

[shovah]

yup, your best bet is just to run him into something tough and resummon him asap

[OG_Gleep]

Quick question: Which of the anti-undead spells work on undead SC's like the conj 9 titans(sp?), or the bigger eth undead (a lot of the anti-undead spells mention they have limited use on etheral undead).

What about the anti-undead weapons?

[magnate]

Why has nobody mentioned Frozen Heart so far in this thread? Is it useless against SCs with 100% cold resistance? That's a great shame if so!

[Endoperez]

Probably. It probably shouldn't affect inanimate creatures either, what with them not having or needing a heart. It is brutal when it can be used, though, especially if you for some reason had many low-water who you wouldn't mind sending in battles.

[shovah]

such as massed sages.

[magnate]

Or, er, massed Masters of the Way ....

[shovah]

yea (or those rubbish atlantian initiates of the deep