Pre-ordering is a benefit not for the buyer...

[Argitoth]

LOL!!! I just realized. I can't buy Dominions III because by the time it's released I'll be gone, away! Never to return! Actually, just for a year. But why does GamersFront give us ZERO benefit for pre-ordering? Anyone knows that a good publisher will throw in SOMETHING! Was it Ultima Online or EverQuest that gave you cloth maps for pre-ordering? That's really stupid that GamersFront is completely ignoring the buyer.

GamersFront is basically saying, "Let the buyers pre-order 2 to 3 months before the game is released, we don't care if we are out of stock, we don't care if the price is high, oh no. Lets ignore the buyer and give them NOTHING for helping us. No reduced price, no store credit, no special mouse pad, no cloth maps... Let's not give anything to our fans."

I'm a complainer, and I'm complaining! HEAR ME ROAR!!!! RAWRRRRR!!! DIEEEEE ZOMBIES.... well that sucks. I won't be able to take part in the Doms3 community. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Chazar]

Don't worry, there are others that will have to delay playing Dom!!! by a full year too...

...like me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif



(EDIT: ...oh, and isnt the benefit of pre-ordering that you run a decreased risk that they're out of stock? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )

[DominionsFan]

Where are you guys going? You cant play on a laptop if you aint at home? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Nerfix]

Not everybody has a laptop.

[DominionsFan]

Nerfix said:
Not everybody has a laptop.



Yes I know, but for example, if I would plan to stay away from home for a year, I would surely buy a laptop. Well depends maybe not, if I would go for a military service. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PDF]

I don't get the point : there was a 5$ rebate for preordering up to 20th of may or so IIRC, wasn't it ?
IMHO better than some crap-map or gadgets we have in "Collector Eds" for 20$ more than a regular box.

[Varjostin]

Hello people.

I'm an old school Dom PPP player and became interested in Dominions 3. I have followed the conversation here in secrecy (buahaha) and decided to join the forums. Hope you will stand me. Ok, lets move onto the matter.
I have seen many here critizing the preorder price of Dom 3. I don't know how it's for Americans but here in Europe it isn't so costy to buy. Ok, I have to admit the general level of prices differ greatly in Europe, but my main point is that currency exchange rate between dollar and euro is benefiting european buyers. I paid about 41 euros for the game with transport costs.(Discount?) Now the price in euros is 43.50 with transport expenses which is below the price of a normal game. However, I'm not absolutely sure, because Finland has one of the highest price levels in Europe. Gasp.

[Endoperez]

Varjostin said:
Hello people.

I'm an old school Dom PPP player and became interested in Dominions 3. I have followed the conversation here in secrecy (buahaha) and decided to join the forums. Hope you will stand me. Ok, lets move onto the matter.
I have seen many here critizing the preorder price of Dom 3. I don't know how it's for Americans but here in Europe it isn't so costy to buy. Ok, I have to admit the general level of prices differ greatly in Europe, but my main point is that currency exchange rate between dollar and euro is benefiting european buyers. I paid about 41 euros for the game with transport costs.(Discount?) Now the price in euros is 43.50 with transport expenses which is below the price of a normal game. However, I'm not absolutely sure, because Finland has one of the highest price levels in Europe. Gasp.



A-ha! Another Finn joins our merry group of addicted gamers.

I agree with both Varjostin and PDF: the game isn't that expensive, especially with the pre-order discount, and I wouldn't pay extra to get any crap with the game. Most collectors' editions are much more expensive than the normal versions, and the extra stuff just takes up extra space.

We also get paper manual, AFAIK, and that is becoming kind of rare these days.

Varjostin, have you tried out DomII at all? You might want to adjust a little to the user interface, because the change from Dom:PPP to DomII was much bigger than it seems to be from DomII to Dom!!!.

[Gandalf Parker]

This isnt some huge corporate publisher. Its a developer who has added publishing in order to help other independents get published. I never thought of pre-ordering as being helpful to the buyer. I always thought of it as my way of telling the developer that I have faith in them creating a product I will want, and Im willing to give them some profits ahead of time in order to help that happen.

If Shrapnel doesnt see fit to put some big price break in there then its not a dealbuster for me. After all, such a price break would be tactical. It would have to come from someones cut. Shrapnels, or Illwinters. And it would have to be expected to create some sort of gain such as "loss now to generate hype which leads to more sales later". I dont think this game has the community that would work well for. What if most of the people who will buy Dom3 are already in these forums? Then such a price break would be bad.

In fact, Ive always been leary of BIG prices breaks on pre-orders. The only really good reason I could figure for a company doing it was that they knew the after-release conversations of players who got the game was going to kill further sales

[Chazar]

DominionsFAN said:
Where are you guys going? You cant play on a laptop if you aint at home? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif


I do have a laptop and I am not going anywhere nor do I mind the price of Dom!!!

However, I currently have both both an unfinished thesis and an unfinished child in the making - and I fear that the two will be completed in the wrong order... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif Now if you figure what Dom2 already did to me, then Dom!!! would be my doom!

So instead, I rather choose Dom!!! as my reward, should there ever be some spare time again in the distant future... /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif [i](Hmm, maybe...just maybe...less posting here could help me to win the race too...bye!)[i]

[Varjostin]

Endoperez said:

Varjostin, have you tried out DomII at all? You might want to adjust a little to the user interface, because the change from Dom:PPP to DomII was much bigger than it seems to be from DomII to Dom!!!.



Well, I have played the demo and the whole game at a friend, but I couldn't convince my parents again to lend me their credit card back then, because they (or my mother) became aware of the so-called dangers of e-buying. Yeah, it's the policy of my family. Since I now have a Visa Electron I was able to buy Dom III and I thought it's not worth of buying Dom II this late.

I have looked at the screenshots and feature lists and they look awesome. I can't wait to get my copy of the game. I presume it's published in June, right?

[Nerfix]

Varjostin said:Well, I have played the demo and the whole game at a friend, but I couldn't convince my parents again to lend me their credit card back then, because they (or my mother) became aware of the so-called dangers of e-buying. Yeah, it's the policy of my family. Since I now have a Visa Electron I was able to buy Dom III and I thought it's not worth of buying Dom II this late.

Goodnes, a fellow finn with same problem as I have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Except my VE can't order stuff abroad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive worked for internet providors and I often recommend that people get some cheapo credit card that is NOT tied to your main bank account. Something like a $200 limit. And mark it as "for internet use".

Of course you are more likely to lose your credit info by carbon copy theft using it somewhere like cheap restaurants or gas stations, so its generally a good idea to get a minor card like that and mark it for daily spending also.

[atul]

Endoperez said:
A-ha! Another Finn joins our merry group of addicted gamers.



We are a legion.

:>

I'm too part of the group disagreeing about the claimed expensiveness of Dom3, recently bought Dragon Quest 8 (I think) for 62 €, and after 30 hours of playing it's starting to get old (good game, nevertheless). Compare that to the <50 € price of Dom3 and if the hours wasted to Dom2 are of any indication...

Anyway, people complaining about the inability to get Dom3 due to lack of credit card: there's still the payment options of Mail-in-check and Mail-in-money. It takes a bit of paperwork and extra money, but it can be done. Just ask from your local bank. I did it with Dom2 and it worked.

[Nerfix]

atul said:Anyway, people complaining about the inability to get Dom3 due to lack of credit card: there's still the payment options of Mail-in-check and Mail-in-money. It takes a bit of paperwork and extra money, but it can be done. Just ask from your local bank. I did it with Dom2 and it worked.

Can 17 year olds do this, how much paperwork, how much extra money?

[atul]

Nerfix said:
Can 17 year olds do this, how much paperwork, how much extra money?


Dunno about the age, you have to ask about that from your bank. But as it's your own money and not a loan, I'd hazard that the age won't be a problem. If I remember my ordeal correctly, I went to my bank with the payment info I'd get from the shrapnel's store, asked what I had to do in order to get money to US, filled a form or a two, paid about 10 € extra and got a pile of hardcopies about international money transfers and stuff. It took 20 - 30 minutes, IIRC.

[Endoperez]

Nerfix said:

Varjostin said:Well, I have played the demo and the whole game at a friend, but I couldn't convince my parents again to lend me their credit card back then, because they (or my mother) became aware of the so-called dangers of e-buying. Yeah, it's the policy of my family. Since I now have a Visa Electron I was able to buy Dom III and I thought it's not worth of buying Dom II this late.

Goodnes, a fellow finn with same problem as I have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Except my VE can't order stuff abroad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I got Dom:PPP when my dear godmother bought it from an otherwise non-games computer shop in Helsinki. I have since visited there once myself, just to see the place from where I received the Swedish blessing.
I hoped to get DomII for my birthday in December or Christmas, but for some reason my parents thought it to be better for me to wait until summer holidays. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Thankfully, I have no problems with Dom!!!. Being 18 does help, even if I don't care about alcohol or cars.

Do you other Finns remember the wonderful, wonderful review the Pelit magazine wrote for DomII? It was titled 'Tulkoon sinun valtakuntasi' (May thy kingdom come). I adore it. I have thought about scanning, printing & framing it. As far as price is concerned, if reading the review of a game I'm already familiar with makes me giggle, laugh and act unnervingly happy, it is worth its price. How did Gandalf sum it up, again? Digitalized crack? Pixelized crack? He was right!

[Nerfix]

I've read it. The best, but politicaly incorrect, subtitle there was "Nothing new on the West Bank"...

[Endoperez]

Nerfix said:
I've read it. The best, but politicaly incorrect, subtitle there was "Nothing new on the West Bank"...



Actually "Uutta länsirintamalta", literally "New on the Western Front" but better as "Something new on the Western Front". Sweden is Finland's western neighbour.
If those titles didn't fit the game that well, I'd have thought that the religious title and subtitles would be incorrect.

I just realized we conquered this thread. Sorry, Argitoth!

[NTJedi]

Argitoth said:
LOL!!! I just realized. I can't buy Dominions III because by the time it's released I'll be gone, away! Never to return! Actually, just for a year.


Zero entertainment for a year... either you are joining one of those reality TV shows, some unknown cult, or you're trying to bore yourself to death. Just kidding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


Argitoth said:
But why does GamersFront give us ZERO benefit for pre-ordering? Anyone knows that a good publisher will throw in SOMETHING! Was it Ultima Online or EverQuest that gave you cloth maps for pre-ordering? That's really stupid that GamersFront is completely ignoring the buyer.



Well before May_20th the preorder benefit was financial... saving the consumer $7.00 in cost. So financially it was better to pre_order before May_20th.

Actually if Shrapnel wanted they could release a "Collectors Edition" of Dominions_3. The collectors edition could include 3 unique items to lure the true fans. First a small paper manual providing hints & history otherwise not available. Second could be a figure of the angel in DOM_3 which is to rival the demonlords. having a holy symbol in the box should help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And third and most important is that anyone which purchased a collectors edition could attend a private online 1_hour chat with the Illwinter developers. This chat would be setup where the developers would choose to only answer the questions they wish. All questions would have to be PM to someone which sorts and passes the civilized questions to Illwinter.
--made a topic for this:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=426312



Argitoth said:
GamersFront is basically saying, "Let the buyers pre-order 2 to 3 months before the game is released, we don't care if we are out of stock, we don't care if the price is high, oh no. Lets ignore the buyer and give them NOTHING for helping us. No reduced price, no store credit, no special mouse pad, no cloth maps... Let's not give anything to our fans."


Anyone which pre-orders the game won't be on the 'out of stock' list because they manufacture the CDs, books and game box in bulk. Shrapnel will examine the total pre-order requests and match the demand for shipping before the game is released.
The TRUE benefit of pre-ordering was before May_20th which I mentioned earlier. The only benefit of pre-ordering now is not being placed on some waiting list if the game becomes a huge success. Ideally the game should still have a $2.oo discount to encourage more pre-orders.


I won't be able to take part in the Doms3 community. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif



We'll be here when you finish your year vacation which has zero entertainment. And one benefit you can look forward to upon returning is that your first game will have an official patch making it more stable and balanced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually most of the special set could be offered by any of us I think. How about a CD full of mods, and maps, and all of the units as icons, and the tutorial game, turoial map example, tutorial mod, some started games, some pre-made gods, a manual. Plus you can throw in a nice tshirt, mug, and a bumpersticker.
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell?pid=2837642

Gandalf Parker

[Varjostin]

Endoperez said:

Do you other Finns remember the wonderful, wonderful review the Pelit magazine wrote for DomII?



Damn, I have totally missed it. I read their small introduction for Dom 1 but not for Dom 2. I didn't even know they had done one. Who was the editor of that article? Niko Nirvi? His articles are definetely the best! I can't wait to see the introduction for Dominions III!

Yes, Gandalf that idea for an account for e-shopping is very handy indeed. I would consider it, if my original account had any money to be stolen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Mail-in check sound a bit too complex for a mortal, but frankly, I didn't even consider one earlier. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And of course, sorry for capturing this thread. (Newcomers have to be polite, but just wait a couple of months.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Endoperez]

Varjostin said:

Endoperez said:

Do you other Finns remember the wonderful, wonderful review the Pelit magazine wrote for DomII?



Damn, I have totally missed it. I read their small introduction for Dom 1 but not for Dom 2. I didn't even know they had done one. Who was the editor of that article? Niko Nirvi? His articles are definetely the best! I can't wait to see the introduction for Dominions III!



February 2/2004. It was written by Mikko Rintasaari, but in the 'good' they had "pomminvarma moninpeli" (fantastic multiplayer), so I can't be sure about who else took part in the testing. The names of the pretenders shown were too conservative to tell much (namely, Odin the Allfather and Nyarlathotep the Void Lord).

I'll send you a PM, or personal message. Look for a flashing letter icon near your screen name on the top-left part of the page.

[PDF]

Well, overall Dom3 is rather expensive : 55$ plus postage (5$ for me in France) is clearly above average, for a "small budget" game. Not even counting possible VAT making it increase to 70$ !
I don't have any problem with that though, since Dom2 alone had for me 1000hr+ lifespan !
And I understand that Shrapnel and Illwinter wants to do some money with it. The only other solution good for developers and customers and allowing to lower prices is to distribute through download only, but that's not the way they did it.

[DominionsFan]

PDF said:
Well, overall Dom3 is rather expensive : 55$ plus postage (5$ for me in France) is clearly above average, for a "small budget" game. Not even counting possible VAT making it increase to 70$ !
I don't have any problem with that though, since Dom2 alone had for me 1000hr+ lifespan !
And I understand that Shrapnel and Illwinter wants to do some money with it. The only other solution good for developers and customers and allowing to lower prices is to distribute through download only, but that's not the way they did it.




Well yes...but like I said, the question is, what is the best way for Shrapnel and Illwinter to gain more money?

Example:
1. The retail price of the game is 45 euro. -> More people gonna buy the game probably.
2. The retail price of the game is 55 euro. -> Less people gonna buy it probably.

Frankly...I have no idea which one is better for the devs. All I know is that the price of the game gonna scare away xy number of players...it wont scare away "potential" costumers for sure however.

[Gandalf Parker]

Do you really think so?
I wish them well and all. I think its a great game. But I think the market for this game is measureable. Im not sure if the difference in the number of people who will/wont purchase based on that price change is enough to cover making the change.

Especially with the "bill rule". That people tend to base their purchase decisions based in sizes of bills. In the US thats 5, 10, 20, 50. Once it crosses from one denomination size to the next then everything in between is pretty much the same in the mind of most buyers. (the bill rule is also why you see so many things priced at 19.99 or 4.99)

Gandalf Parker

[Varjostin]

PDF said:
Well, overall Dom3 is rather expensive : 55$ plus postage (5$ for me in France) is clearly above average, for a "small budget" game. Not even counting possible VAT making it increase to 70$ !




Here in Finland an average game bought from a game store costs over 50 euros. I don't know about France. So would you tell me how much an average game costs there? Damn, after long browsing ah-so-lovely wikipedia page for VAT and the pages of the Customs Service, I have to say you are getting it right. According to the Customs Service I have to pay 22% or 17% of VAT (Value added tax) and a customs duty of a small sum, because the product comes from the U.S. This is of course in Finland.

It has to be remembered, though, that this tariff-jargon is a very complex thing to master and it's possible that no tax is being collected from a game. In any case every european buyer of Dom 3 should probably take the suggested 70$ and multiply it with the current exchange rate between euro and dollar, which is today 0.7203, when changing dollars to euros. This results 50.421, with which I presume you had came up too. The price is still the price of an average game in FINLAND. It's the final price rounded up (70 $) with tariffs and taxes counted with. So the information for the average prices in other countries is needed.

I'm sorry if I sound too argumentative or just micromanage too much. It's my style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PDF]

Varjostin,
Here games are also in the 45-50€ range... I forgot the $ was so cheap these days, when I preordered rate was rather 0.85 !

DominionsFAN,
Sure the publisher choice on price is dependent on the "price elasticity" he etimates... Maybe Shrapnel thought that the game has a rather big "sure audience" (eg fans) that won't be scared by higher price, or that to the contrary not much additional people will buy it even if it's cheap.
BTW I understand their analysis, Dom is a rather demanding game that will never sell in very high numbers (however good it can be)

[Varjostin]

Yes PDF, it's certainly amazing how such an esoteric thing like an exchange rate can affect our gaming hobby this much. I actually started to follow the economics pages of our newspaper after discovering the price difference caused by the exchange rates! I think I managed to buy Dom III just in the right time.

[Agrajag]

Lucky for you.
No matter how weak the (USA) Dollar gets, the NIS (New Israely Shekel) always gets lower.
So here 55$ is quite expensive (roughly 237 NIS, 267 with shipment), which isn't far from the average computer game, costing 220-240 NIS.
Which is still very overpriced compared to buying power of an average consumer in here.

Also, getting a special benefit for pre-ordering is extremely rare, and pre-ordering is just a means of slightly decreasing the chance the shop will run out of stock when you try and buy the game.

And people are surprised digital piracy is high in Israel :\ (especially the people who think we live in tents and drive camels to work)

[WraithLord]

Agrajag said:
And people are surprised digital piracy is high in Israel :\ (especially the people who think we live in tents and drive camels to work)


Where did you get that impression from?
I have been to Europe, China and S. America and I found that ppl there have an exaggerated conception of Israel as a large country with a strong economy and science. This is of course a generalization but at least that was the impression I got when talking to locals about Israel.

And more on topic, I agree that NIS is weak compared to dollar which makes dominions (and most other games) more expensive to Israelis.

[DominionsFan]

WraithLord said:

Agrajag said:
And people are surprised digital piracy is high in Israel :\ (especially the people who think we live in tents and drive camels to work)


Where did you get that impression from?
I have been to Europe, China and S. America and I found that ppl there have an exaggerated conception of Israel as a large country with a strong economy and science. This is of course a generalization but at least that was the impression I got when talking to locals about Israel.

And more on topic, I agree that NIS is weak compared to dollar which makes dominions (and most other games) more expensive to Israelis.




Hm, here in Hungary anti-semitism is very great sadly, probably my country is the most anti-semitic in whole Europe, and Im not kidding. This is well known, but also my personal experience is this...people are talking really bad things about jews, but I never heard that someone would mention that the people in Israel are living in tents and riding on camels.

[Saber Cherry]

Where I come from, exchange rates are fixed at 15G per ruby or 10G per topaz.

[Nerfix]

Saber Cherry said:
Where I come from, exchange rates are fixed at 15G per ruby or 10G per topaz.

I apreciate these insights into the economy of Terra II. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Saber Cherry said:
Where I come from, exchange rates are fixed at 15G per ruby or 10G per topaz.



The local banks wouldn't happen to accept gold for the gems, would they? I've been running low on topaz, and it seems I can only find emeralds around here.

[WraithLord]

DominionsFAN said:
Hm, here in Hungary anti-semitism is very great sadly, probably my country is the most anti-semitic in whole Europe, and Im not kidding. This is well known, but also my personal experience is this...people are talking really bad things about jews, but I never heard that someone would mention that the people in Israel are living in tents and riding on camels.



That's sad to hear, I don't want to go so very much off topic but it is amazing to realize how much hate can ppl harbor to one another for prejudice, fear and the such, even "enlightened" nations are capable of such primordial hate.

That's the last I'll say on this, and I've only said that because I think it's important in the hopes that the mistakes of the past will never repeat.

[Gandalf Parker]

I probably live in one of the most ignorant countries as far as other nations (USA) and I dont remember hearing that either. I dont think most people associate Israel with the desert countries. And we dont think if it as a poor nation either. Sorry to hear about the game prices.

Now russia on the other hand..
I remember we got a years worth of great C programming done for our MUD game because we sent a guy in Russia one of our old 56k modems.

[PDF]

I believe that Israelis ride Merkavas and live in Cisjordania http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif
Am I right ?

[Agrajag]

PDF, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you kept your political opinions to yourself, I really don't want to turn this thread into a flamewar.

[PDF]

Agrajag said:
PDF, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you kept your political opinions to yourself, I really don't want to turn this thread into a flamewar.



Ok, but I couldn't refrain from this one, after the camel/tent reference http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Agrajag]

Then how about:
"I believe that Israelis ride exploding busses and live in constant fear of terrorism"?

There's much more to be said and flamed, but seeing as all of this is completely irrelevant and is approaching flame-baiting, we are obligated by the forum rules not to do it, even if its hard to refrain from it...

[PDF]

Agrajag said:
Then how about:
"I believe that Israelis ride exploding busses and live in constant fear of terrorism"?

There's much more to be said and flamed, but seeing as all of this is completely irrelevant and is approaching flame-baiting, we are obligated by the forum rules not to do it, even if its hard to refrain from it...



We're both stating facts, I don't see why it should start flame wars.
Granted we're OT and irrelevant to the forum topic, but the camel/tent reference was too.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes please tread carefully.
You are endangering the thread which I was finding semi-interesting

[Agrajag]

PDF said:
We're both stating facts, I don't see why it should start flame wars.
Granted we're OT and irrelevant to the forum topic, but the camel/tent reference was too.


1) We aren't really stating facts, both of us are vastly exaggerating. And politics often cause flamewars.
2) The camel/tent reference was an OT refernce in an OT (on topic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif) post.

And now to something actually relevant:
Here's a nice benefit for not preordering, you get the chance to gather a group purchase of the game and get a nice discount.
I just gathered some friends for a group purchase of HoMM5 and we got almost 20% off.

[Archonsod]

One of the benefits I got for pre-ordering, apart from the exchange rate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, is that I could order (and pay) for it when we got our end of year bonus. Not only did this make it easier to persuade the other half, but it also avoids any mid-month release and can't afford it till payday issues http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kristoffer O]

There will be later addons to dom3 containging Merkavahs, Nephilim and Tetramorphs. I hope no one finds this political.

[Nerfix]

Kristoffer O said:
There will be later addons to dom3 containging Merkavahs, Nephilim and Tetramorphs. I hope no one finds this political.

Funny, I've been thinking of that old Nephilim mod for Dominions 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Agrajag]

As long as those aren't the Merkhavot (plural of Merkhava) PDF was talking about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
By the way, I think a Byblical-Israel nation could be pretty cool.
Troops will be low-tech, using copper or bronze instead of iron. Commanders could be Judges which pack priestly authority with perhaps minor magic skills (1S or 1A perhaps), Prophets with random elemental and maybe astral + holy, Warlords would lead the troops, etc.

[Nerfix]

Agrajag said:
As long as those aren't the Merkhavot (plural of Merkhava) PDF was talking about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
By the way, I think a Byblical-Israel nation could be pretty cool.
Troops will be low-tech, using copper or bronze instead of iron. Commanders could be Judges which pack priestly authority with perhaps minor magic skills (1S or 1A perhaps), Prophets with random elemental and maybe astral + holy, Warlords would lead the troops, etc.

Were you the one who suggested that in the one old "suggest new nations" thread? Because I found the idea quite cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Agrajag]

Thanks, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ,I'm not sure if it was me, but it does make sense, and I think I did mention this idea before.
I searched the forum for posts by me and was unable to track down the relevant thread, but I did find another great thread:
The Mod Command Brainstorm (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=393960&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1)
I sure hope this thread was taken into account when designing the modding portion of Dom3

[Nerfix]

Agrajag said:
Thanks, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ,I'm not sure if it was me, but it does make sense, and I think I did mention this idea before.

If you don't have anything against it (and if Illwinter won't get there first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif ) I'd like to mod your idea into Dom 3 when the time comes.

[Agrajag]

Well, obviously I have nothing against it.
What's better than have my idea "come true"?

Although I would appreciate it if you notify me when you do that, so I can be part of the creative process http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (or if you don't like people getting in the way - observe the creative process http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

[Nerfix]

Agrajag said:Although I would appreciate it if you notify me when you do that, so I can be part of the creative process http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (or if you don't like people getting in the way - observe the creative process http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

Sure, I'd need anybody to help me out with mythology, names and such anyway.

[Agrajag]

I'm not that much of an expert on the subject, but I'd definitely lend a hand. I'm sure the hebrew wikipedia will also come in handy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (and if all else fails, I do have a bible teacher http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif (who is probably not going to like me much after my last test http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif [Which doesn't matter much, since as of tomorrow I am finished with byble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif])
Also, I managed to find that post you were talking about. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB74&Number=304962&Forum= f74,f82,f127&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=500&Main=30 4505&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=6049&daterange =1&newerval=5&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=1#Post304962)
Thank you, ability to preview messages in the search mechanism, and the comfortable easy to use search function of FF.
IMO my old description doesn't sound quite as cool as the new one, but that hardly matters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Nerfix]

Agrajag said:
I'm not that much of an expert on the subject, but I'd definitely lend a hand. I'm sure the hebrew wikipedia will also come in handy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Well, I'm sure you know more than me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

So, now we just wait for the game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

You can probably pre-work alot of it.
As far as I can see Dom3 doesnt "break" anything, it just adds to it. So you should be able to do a mod with descriptions, flags, and even most of the units. Then when Dom3 comes out you can look thru the added commands and yell "YES now I can fix that" to go in and make tweaks.

[Nerfix]

Gandalf Parker said:
You can probably pre-work alot of it.
As far as I can see Dom3 doesnt "break" anything, it just adds to it. So you should be able to do a mod with descriptions, flags, and even most of the units. Then when Dom3 comes out you can look thru the added commands and yell "YES now I can fix that" to go in and make tweaks.

Well, that's true.

So, umm, Agrajag, do you have any idea what kind of units they should have, apart from "they should use copper weapons"?

[Agrajag]

I'm not so sure about that, Gandalf.
Wasn't there something said about changing the default resolution sizes of units?
That is, if a unit used to be 32x32 it will now be 64x64?

If that really is the case, then all artwork will have to be redone, in which case we are better we are better off knowing these things before we start.

As for units, to the best of my understanding most of the byblical armies were pretty much "militia class", there was no permenant army, troops were recruited when battle was looming, so I think the general "theme" would be very cheap units, with added "higher quality" units for balance and flavour. (I don't suppose you plan to make an accurate remake of byblical wars).

That said, in my opinion we should have several different unit "models" each with different armaments:
Milita Class (just a bunch of new recruits, unarmored, but 10 morale) with:
Sickle / Copper Short Sword / Short Spear / Scythe / Pitchfork / Club / Sling / Whip
Warrior Class (trained warrior, probably caravan guards and the like turned into soldiers, leather armor, 11 morale, better Attack/Defense than Militia) with:
Short Copper Sword + Small Copper or Wood Shield / Whip / Short Bow / Long Bow / Spear / Hatchet or Axe + Small Copper or Wood Shield
Holy Warrior (maybe something like temple guards, highly trained with copper/bronze armor and high attack/defense/morale, perhaps blessable) with:
Bronze Short Sword / Bronze Long Sword (no shield) / Mace (wooden shaft, copper head) / Spear
All with a Copper Shield.

Atleast that's how I vision them.

If I'm brainstorming, I might as well think of some commanders:
Levi-like(better name needed) - "High Society", the social elite, some priestly power (H2 or H3)
Judge/Warrior Judge - Those judges that bailed the Israelites out of trouble time and time again. Somewhat of a multiclasser, they have priestly authority (H3), are renowned warriors and leader (good stats, high leadership), but also capable of miracles (S1 for scrying-type mystical spells, or A1 or Elemental1 for pillars of fog-like spells)
Prophet - A true miracle worker, high priestly authority (H3 or H4) and versatile miracle workers (S1-3 for scrying mysticism and/or a few elemental picks for control over natural elements, maybe 1A1F1E+2?(elemental))
Religios Scholar / Son of a Prophet - Students of religion, little religious power (H2 maybe), perhaps stealthy.
Scout - Simple as that, probably even less well armed than other nations' scouts.
Warlord - Leaders-Tactitians, they are the ones who plan military moves. Decents stats and very high leadership, perhaps a morale boosting effect.
Maybe more as they come into my head, maybe less if you don't want them.

Heroes could be:
Samson Clone - Extremely high strength mini-thug (but probably no equipment at all, so not that useful)
Elyahu (Elijah in English AFAIK) Clone - A great prophet, H4 A3F3E1W1, can cure afflictions..


That is it for now, my mental well is dry, hope you like my ideas. (And even if you don't, these are just ideas, we don't have to use them)

[Nerfix]

I must say that I aprove the idea of units with whips/sickles/scythes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Perhaps Judges and Warrior judges could be split into two, one more mage-like and another more of a renown warrior? Though multiclassing is fine by me, too.

Giving astral to the prophets would allow them to participate in Communion with the Judges, and that could be a critical advantage for a nation with very light troops. Astral + elemental pics sounds good to me.

The Levis and Religious Scholars are kinda overlapping...but maybe we'll figure something for them. Maybe an elemental random for the Religious Scholar? Mist-pillar making must start somewhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Standard would be good for the commanders, at least the light troops would be inspired ones.

I also like the hero ideas, but I think that Elyahu Clone could have Astral. Astral + Elementals is very Arco-like I know, but Astral also allows the Angel summons which are very fitting to say the least.

I like it so far, if you get any ideas forward them to me.

[Gandalf Parker]

I like where its headed. But lets copy it to its own thread

[Agrajag]

Done. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=427907&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post427907)
Though I'm still not sure everything will be compatible. (Hint: This is a good spot for some IW post saying wether modding, including new graphical sprites from Dom2 will be fully compatible with Dom3, and if not completely, then where will the incompatibilities be)

[Endoperez]

Agrajag said:
Done. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=427907&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post427907)
Though I'm still not sure everything will be compatible. (Hint: This is a good spot for some IW post saying wether modding, including new graphical sprites from Dom2 will be fully compatible with Dom3, and if not completely, then where will the incompatibilities be)



Did you look at the C'tis sprites that were posted earlier? They were 64x64 pixels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Agrajag]

Endoperez said:

Agrajag said:
Done. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=427907&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post427907)
Though I'm still not sure everything will be compatible. (Hint: This is a good spot for some IW post saying wether modding, including new graphical sprites from Dom2 will be fully compatible with Dom3, and if not completely, then where will the incompatibilities be)



Did you look at the C'tis sprites that were posted earlier? They were 64x64 pixels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



IIRC old sprites were 32x32, which could spell trouble :/
There is a simple solution, drawing the new sprites in 64x64 and then resizing them to fit dom2 (while still holding on to the higher quality originals).
This would mean that it is harder to draw sprites though :\

[Endoperez]

We already have 32x32 sprites in Dom2 mods. They can be resized to be twice as big. If proportions haven't changed, they can be used. New 32x32 graphics can be made just as easily as they could be made for Dom2. The difference is that it is hard to do AS GOOD sprites as we get from Illwinter and from the artistically talented.

[Agrajag]

The problem is when you resize 32x32 to 64x64 you get really ugly sprites.
Think about it this way, for each "original" pixel you get four "bogus" pixels, so image quality can drop rapidly :/
That's why I think the originals should be 64x64 and resized to 32x32 solely for dom2.

[DominionsFan]

AFAIK, the size of the unit's gfx remained the same for Doms 3. I received a private message from Kristoffer a couple of weeks ago. As you know I will make a fantasy based mod for Doms 3 [It will be a "vanilla" mod with elves, dwarves et cetera.]... so I asked him about unit gfx possibilities.
He said that the max. size of an unit is 128x128. I think that was the same for Doms 2.

[Endoperez]

Agrajag said:
The problem is when you resize 32x32 to 64x64 you get really ugly sprites.
Think about it this way, for each "original" pixel you get four "bogus" pixels, so image quality can drop rapidly :/
That's why I think the originals should be 64x64 and resized to 32x32 solely for dom2.



The units can't double in size, can they? They are drawn the same size as they were, or about the same size, judging from the screenshots. I didn't notice any spell effects being too big in regards to the units, although I don't remember any spell effects with the old sprites (lighting was old spell IIRC, but had new gfx). Any way, I presume that the mod sprites from DomII will look exactly like they were in Dom2 after they are resized to be twice as big. This is exactly what happened to e.g. the old Ulmish sprites drawn for Dom:PPP when DomII doubled the sprite size. They are uglier than other sprites, but that's not very noticeable until you have seen the Black Forest troops and realize what Ulm could have looked like.

My point is that even though old sprites made for DomII will look uglier when compared to the new Dom3 sprites, they won't look any worse as they'd have looked in a DomII game - if I quessed it right. However, recalling the Dom:PPP -> DomII change, so I'm pretty confident on this. Even more so than usual, when I argue just to prove my point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[DominionsFan]

Well, the maximum unit size was 128x128 in Doms 2. as well, am I correct? This is the max. in Doms 3. at least, so you can have 32x32, 64x64, 128x128 sized units.