Bug in AI buys?

[snake]

I think I've uncovered a problem in campaign buys for the AI?
My force value is 3750 (German) and I have 4100 points saved up to fix/purchase new equipment later.
My next mission was a meeting engagement against the Belgium Army.
The AI buy was overwhelming to say the least. At the end of the mission, I calculated I would need over 9000 selection points to buy what the AI had bought. Yet, I assumed that in a meeting engagement with a value of 3750 that the AI buy would be roughly the same amount (4000) give or take.

My question then becomes: did the AI calculate it's huge buy based on my 3750 value PLUS the saved 4100 points? That would explain the large purchase power of the AI in this case.

[Mobhack]

The AI will have bought around 3750 points worth of kit if it was a meeter.

You may be looking at the default 70exp/70 morale default level, and not the (probably) less values the AI will have used for the force buy (probably about 55 exp and 60 morale?).

Probaby - since an ACG-1 cost in Mobhack at the default experience is 34 points, but in an AI buy I just tried, 27.

Cheers
Andy

[cbo]

Its a partly a Troop Quality/Country Training issue. Assuming the time is May 1940, I bought at 3700 pt German force and had the AI buy the Belgian force.

With "Training" on, the Belgian AI bought 250 units, with "Training" off and Troop Quality=70 for both, the Belgian AI bought about 175 units.
The AI was buying basically the same kind of units, just less of them, as the price was higher with "Training" on.

However, even if Troop Quality is the same, the Belgian side buys more because many of the units they have a are generally cheaper, reflecting their inferior capabilities compared with the German ones.
This seems to be particularily true if you have "AI Tank Heavy" on in the preferences, as the Germans have more expensive tanks, generally, than the Belgians.

Claus B

[snake]

Hmmm,
That seems to make sense. I had training on and the Belgians bought about 250 units.
So where does the 'lower training' and 'cheaper' buys make itself known because those bad boys sure fought well if they were 'cheap' troops. I assume they should be harder to rally and the army morale should break sooner?

Perhaps the trouble is that cheap artillery buys still function as well as expensive buys and the ability to purchase 30 - 35 indirect units is VERY powerful.
Maybe a limit needs to be set on types of units purchased. A horde of low morale troops is WAY different than some low morale troops and a horde of artillery!

[Mobhack]

Low training arty will arrive later, and drift off target more, and will if off-map, not fire counterbattery fires much.

Low morale arty, if hit, will tend to have the crews run off map, or if off-map, take longer (if ever) to recover.

In the Yom Kippur War, 75% of Israeli fire missions were counter-battery. I tend to use 1-2 off map batteries of reasonable ranged arty (I use the 10cm K18, not the 105 as range is good - 214), for a bn (4 coys, usually 3 rifle co and a tank co) sized force. Those are usually left "idle" as counter battery firers for most of the game. On map, i have a heavy mortar group (with ammo supply) and/or a 15cm SIG section and they deal with on-map arty mainly. Each on-map coy has a mortar platoon, or 2 halftrack SP-mortar platoon assigned, and these are used to support the coy with direct supporting fires against infantry targets, breaking up attacks etc. The reamining arty is really only released from CB duties once I have dealt with the arty threat from the opponent.

Andy

[snake]

Perhaps the problem in the buy lies in the fact one can select a type of unit without restriction.
In the "Other" steel panthers game, there is a 'rarity' factor that doesn't allow a player to select all the same equipment. In other words Flak 88 guns can be purchased but only so many like 1 or 2 batteries and then the selection is greyed out.

I bring this up because of a long campaign mission. Germany Delay versus Great Britain Advance in June 1940 in the Balkans.
My German force value was 4500 points. The British got 9740 points as close as I can tell BUT......
He bought 69 MATILDA II tanks!!!! That's ridiculous. He also had 2 Spitfires, 8 2pdr AT's, 6 3" mortars, 9 40mm Bofors, 3 25 PDR art, and 8 4.5" art.
He also had: 3 A13, 3 A9, 14 Armored cars, 10 Dingos, 20 Marr-Herringtons, and 4 Valentine II's.
He also had 200 units of infantry.

So the problem in the buy seems to be that there isn't any limits on equipment. A player or AI could easily substitute more Matilda II's for some of that other stuff.

This is sort of the problem I had with the Belgians getting so many units because they only bought 1 basic type of infantry and 'covered' the map with men.

In a meeting engagement with France, I faced 40 Char bis, 19 H-39, 15 Somoa, 6 Char D2 and 270 other units including over 30 indirect art fire units. I don't think 46 Char tanks is realistic either.

It would be like the Russians facing nothing but Tiger tanks and Brandenburgers in a Russian campaign mission. That kind of equipment just wasn't mass produced but the AI purchase routine isn't bound by any rarity factors as far as I can tell.

Perhaps all units, like radios, should have a rarity factor during the purchase routine to prevent selections like this.

[Mobhack]

AI rarity in picking troops is already covered with the radio code. See the mobhack help for details.

Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

snake said:
In a meeting engagement with France, I faced 40 Char bis, 19 H-39, 15 Somoa, 6 Char D2 and 270 other units including over 30 indirect art fire units. I don't think 46 Char tanks is realistic either.




CharB1's were concentrated in formations (although perhaps not always). Here you see the OB of the french armored formations in 5/40:
http://perso.infonie.fr/enpointe/dcr.html

The DCR's each had 2 battallions of 34 B1's each. So 46 Chars is not unrealistic as it is only 2/3 of the total number in a heavy half-brigade. At best facing 46 is not likely, but certainly possible.
Also see scenario 277 which is based on historical events.

Narwan

[Charles22]

The thing we have to remember about this game is that it's not meant to be a force representing the "average force" such that every unit represents 100 or 1000 or the real life units.

No, the truth of the matter is that you have a special force here that meetes it's enemy on largely equal terms (apart from the mission type). By equal terms I eman the enemy attacks or defends with the sam points as you always will. If you run into a high concentration of a unit which wasn't available in very high quantities, then and only then should there be a problem of sorts.

A good general rule of thumb to looking at this sort of situation is to remember what divisions usually carried. Most divisions had at least 25-50 tanks to a regiment, so if you see that sort of concentration of a tank that was usually rare, it's not really that rare when you consider that most AFV's didn't get thrown about in penny packets. By that I mean they didn't give every divison their own Tiger tank. So while it may seem ratio-wise that 30 Tigers are too high a number for the enemy, remember that it was normal for them to be grouped together like that, though they may not had been attacking all at the same time.

In a game of SPWAW once, I fought over 150 French tanks, including 110 S-35's! I had 30-40 tanks maximum with only 2 88's. Fortunately for me I inflicted enough damage on his advance that the French surrendered before he did too much damage to me and I had a decisive victory. Another 5-10 turns and I would've lost objectives and turned into dog meat. That's one advantage to striking the enemy early on with some long range fire in that you might be going against an enemy that has low enough morale that it will break. I don't think I've ever seen this sort of thing happen in SPWW2, and in SPWAW's case only once or twice.

[snake]

Charles,
Well, the very next mission against GB was a meeting engagement and guess what? Yep, almost all Matilda II tanks again. That's now 4 in a row counting 1 French nothing but char bis buy.
In fact, the AI bought 35 Tanks. 3 A13, 4 Valentines and 28 Matilda II's. There were also 16 light varients plus cars and the usual 9 40mm, 8 25 pdr, 2 4.5" and 4 3" artillery sections. The rest of the 175 units was rifle sections - no transport.
So I'm not sure this rarity thing is working regardless of points available?! BTW my force value was 3960.

As a side note, I turned down art effectiveness to 10% while I wait for the patch to fix indirect fire top hits but it didn't make any difference that I can tell. The art falls near my armor - boom - armor gone. But at least I can do the same to him!

[DRG]

A "Germany Delay versus Great Britain Advance in June 1940" with Germany having 4500 points should give the Brit AI close to 8940-8950 points. How did you calculate 9740 ?

When I set up a generated battle with GB advancing on Germany with Germany having 4500 points as the delaying force I see the Brit AI getting a lot of A13's and A9's and in the four battles I set up not one Matilda 2.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this problem but I need to know where your numbers are coming from

Attach a save game.

Don

[Mobhack]

June 1940 is in France 40, and the only matilda 2s you will see is if the mixed matilda 1&2 coy is bought (rare). And it is mainly matilda 1.

Perhaps the original poster is mixing up Matilda 1 (little thing with a MG only) with matilda 2 (big brute with a 2 pounder)?. Or - he is mixing up 1941 (desert) with 1940 (France)?.

If it is the desert - matildas in 41 are reasonably common, as there were many in the RTR regiments. (They even made it to Malta - I have seen a picture of one being used to tow a pranged early-model blenheim off a runway.)


New EXE changes
AI pick has been changed for the new EXE to make cruisers more common vs GE in 41, and in 40 and 41, to use A10 heavies (sic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif! - these have been changed to "light infantry tank" class in thier own formations. Were reasonably common in france 40, early desert war, and Greece. Dates also changed for A10 - were only in service from 39.

Also changed it to be more cruiser oriented vs Italy to 42, as the Italians have a real bad time with Matildas and Valentines with only the 47mm gun. (need the 75mm AA gun, which is big, and has limited AP ammo).

The UK OOB now has the AT-roled 25 pounder, which it will buy in the defence in the early desert war period.

All this should make playing vs the UK easier in 41 as GE and IT.

The Indians still rely pretty much on Matildas (the Indian divisions usually had UK RTR regiments attached - if the ID tags are on, you will see these have UK flags) and the Australians may use captured M13-40 sometimes.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
Well, the very next mission against GB was a meeting engagement and guess what? Yep, almost all Matilda II tanks again. That's now 4 in a row counting 1 French nothing but char bis buy.
In fact, the AI bought 35 Tanks. 3 A13, 4 Valentines and 28 Matilda II's. There were also 16 light varients plus cars and the usual 9 40mm, 8 25 pdr, 2 4.5" and 4 3" artillery sections. The rest of the 175 units was rifle sections - no transport.
So I'm not sure this rarity thing is working regardless of points available?! BTW my force value was 3960.

As a side note, I turned down art effectiveness to 10% while I wait for the patch to fix indirect fire top hits but it didn't make any difference that I can tell. The art falls near my armor - boom - armor gone. But at least I can do the same to him!



Considering that's only 28 Mati's that's entirely within regimental parameters. It just so happens that you're such a bad dude that the enemy is taking you more seriously http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

What is the map size you have been playing on? I play with a 200X140, or so, map, and I don't have those problems, but then I haven't played this recent version but once so far and that was an offensive assault on my part. I either had 3,000 or 3,200 core points. Despite all the support given to such an assault, I only used only about 500pts worth. I'm just thinking that with a larger map and/or a somewhat smaller core, that the AI will shift his purchasing a bit.

The Mati of course is notorious for lack of speed, which in a larger map the AI may be much more reluctant to pick, however, I'm somewhat surprised, given the AI aptitude for dash in meeting engagements, that it picked that many anyway. I'm afraid you can't inflict enough damage on the Brits to make them surrender before the greatest part of your force is ripped to shreds. I'm afraid you're on your own, and it's time to fight to the last man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif.

[snake]

OK fans,
Now it's 5 missions in a row. My next meeting engagement with GB back in the Balkans in April 1941 sees me facing all Matilda II tanks again with some Valentine's thrown in.

It is April 1941 in the Balkans against GB in a meeting engagement. Long campaign on an 80X80 map with my German force at 3968 points.

Andy,

No, these are all MATILDA II tanks - have never seen the Matilda I yet with the TMG. These all have 2 pdr AT weapons and MG's. A few are the CS version with 3" howitzers. This buy is a little better (more realistic) than the previous ones but it's now 41 and not 40.

It is 1941 in this mission but as I've said, all the previous were in 1940. In fact, I'm a little surprised the long campaign skipped almost 10 months with a 200 mission limit entered at the start.

Yay, for the future EXE fixes - thanks!

Charles,
I got my figure of purchase points for the AI by starting a campaign as GB and buying all the equipment, as near as I could, that I've seen in my missions.
That is my issue, I could have bought all Matilda II tanks in Sept 39 as the GB player right from a long campaign start and just kept buying them - they never greyed out or were not available.
That means the rarity issue is not being factored in if I can do that. And I assume the AI can as well.

Here is the save game of the mission currently in play (Meeting engagement against GB in Balkans - my 5th against mostly heavy armor only in a row). I was smart enough to buy 4 extra 88's in anticipation so I'm doing well in this one picking the slow monsters off and close assault has been VERY LUCKY! I also set the Art to 10% and in this mission, at least, it seems to have lessened the top hit kill effect on armor to a more reasonable level - I've only lost a few instead of everybody in the blast radius all the time.

EDIT: OK, finished the mission - final count - 31 Matilda II's, 8 Valentines, 15 Diamler A/C, 2 RR A/C, 5 dingo, 4 2pdr portee, 3 A9, 5 3", 9 40mm bofors, 2 25pdr troops and the balance of 170 units was rifle sections. A reasonable force value for the points but it should have been many more cruisers and a few Matildas.

Thanks for listening,
Snake

[DRG]

1] There have been changes to the AI picks that have lowered the chance of Matilda 2's from being bought by the AI in the early part of the war. However, I have generated dozens of battles with both the games release EXE and the modified EXE and I have yet to see an overwhelming number of Matilda 2's bought in the release EXE when battles in 1940 are fought. 18 has been the max I have seen so far and that was with a tank heavy setting with 10,000 points. What can I say ? You saw it but I don't and in any event the EXE and the OOB has been altered so that it won't happen again


2] Rarity, in WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT is based on if a unit is "average" "uncommon". "common" and "unavailable" to the AI. We do not set "rarity" limits on how many of this or that you can buy. That is a "feature" that we have no plans to add to this game as most players like to make their own minds up about who should have what . Yes, a player COULD buy nothing but Matilda 2's if he were the Brit player in 1940. That's his choice. Choice is good. If someone wants to buy what he considers a historical mix of units that's his choice as well and the game "allows" that just as it "allows" him to command a company of Tiger tanks if he so desires without the "game nanny" deciding...... " No Johnny...you've had enough of those, go play with something else now.....". We DO try to create the AI pick lists with reasonable limits on things. That's why you won't see the German AI getting fleets of Tiger tanks but we will not be introducing limits on what you can or cannot buy. It's a game. If someone wants to see what he could do against the Germans in May of 1940 with more than the "historical" number of Matilda 2's he's quite free to do so just as the player who wants to see how he could do with the more historical unit mix.

3} If you want to find out exactly what the AI bought in a campaign and how much it cost convert the campaign save game to a sceanrio save simply by renaming it to an empty sceanrio slot number and then copy it to the sceanrio folder and then start the game and open it in the editor with the "Buy" button

Don

[Charles22]

snake said:
OK fans,
Now it's 5 missions in a row. My next meeting engagement with GB back in the Balkans in April 1941 sees me facing all Matilda II tanks again with some Valentine's thrown in.

It is April 1941 in the Balkans against GB in a meeting engagement. Long campaign on an 80X80 map with my German force at 3968 points.

Andy,

No, these are all MATILDA II tanks - have never seen the Matilda I yet with the TMG. These all have 2 pdr AT weapons and MG's. A few are the CS version with 3" howitzers. This buy is a little better (more realistic) than the previous ones but it's now 41 and not 40.

It is 1941 in this mission but as I've said, all the previous were in 1940. In fact, I'm a little surprised the long campaign skipped almost 10 months with a 200 mission limit entered at the start.

Yay, for the future EXE fixes - thanks!

Charles,
I got my figure of purchase points for the AI by starting a campaign as GB and buying all the equipment, as near as I could, that I've seen in my missions.
That is my issue, I could have bought all Matilda II tanks in Sept 39 as the GB player right from a long campaign start and just kept buying them - they never greyed out or were not available.
That means the rarity issue is not being factored in if I can do that. And I assume the AI can as well.

Here is the save game of the mission currently in play (Meeting engagement against GB in Balkans - my 5th against mostly heavy armor only in a row). I was smart enough to buy 4 extra 88's in anticipation so I'm doing well in this one picking the slow monsters off and close assault has been VERY LUCKY! I also set the Art to 10% and in this mission, at least, it seems to have lessened the top hit kill effect on armor to a more reasonable level - I've only lost a few instead of everybody in the blast radius all the time.

EDIT: OK, finished the mission - final count - 31 Matilda II's, 8 Valentines, 15 Diamler A/C, 2 RR A/C, 5 dingo, 4 2pdr portee, 3 A9, 5 3", 9 40mm bofors, 2 25pdr troops and the balance of 170 units was rifle sections. A reasonable force value for the points but it should have been many more cruisers and a few Matildas.

Thanks for listening,
Snake




Almost 4000pts on a 80X80 map? You're forcing him to buy expensive stuff because he almost can't use all those points otherwise. Play as GB yourself and see how many units you can buy "without" Matilda II's. Hitting the 200 unit limit mark won't be too difficult, but even if you see a lot of leeway, imagine that nation purchasing two to three times that amount when it has to assault you (and this isn't even considering buying support points). It simply won't be enough and matters will be even worse when you face the super-cheap USSR. Seeing 28-33 Matildas doesn't worry me too much, but facing gobs of KV's does, and even just using 3,350 core points as I currently do, does scare me a bit that the AI will run into the unit number limit and thereby get cheated, or will start putting out the most expensive stuff to compensate.

[Mobhack]

The long campaign will skip periods of inactivity, just like the game will. E.g. from France 40 to the desert 41, as nothing was happening.

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

Charles,
I can certainly delete some of my core units to bring it into balance if my original 3000 buy is too much.
I'm not sure what the size map has to do with the choice of units?
My original German buy was just 38 AFV's (15 tanks, 12 cs tanks, 5 recon, 3 td's 3 stugs), 20 infantry squads and their transports plus two 88's. I upgraded some tanks and men and the value went to 3890 but the numbers remain at 80 TOTAL units. That's about 1 unit in every 150X150 meter grid at placement for me - a lot of ground for an infantry squad of 10 men to cover (1 man for 15 X 15 meters) or one AFV in 150X150. And let's remember 20 of my units are transports for the men.....

The AI is buying the expensive stuff like Matilda II and weighing in at 175 to 350 units in meeting engagements on the 80X80 map.

I guess I don't understand the map size versus unit numbers/quality statement? What is appropriate?

Are you saying I have to spread my 80 units out over a 120X120 map or bigger just so the AI will buy realistic quantities and types?

[DRG]

I finished that game you sent as an example and the next battle was a meeting engagement against the British in 4/41. The Brit AI had a force value of 4022 points and bought 123 units with that. Your force value is 3987 with 83 units. That's hardly unbalanced considering your force is largely "elite" now with experience in the 90-100 range and morale not far behind. Your facing troops with experience and morale in the 60's and 70's generally

Don

[DRG]

FYI the AI does not adjust it's purchase according to map size.

Don

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
I can certainly delete some of my core units to bring it into balance if my original 3000 buy is too much.
I'm not sure what the size map has to do with the choice of units?
My original German buy was just 38 AFV's (15 tanks, 12 cs tanks, 5 recon, 3 td's 3 stugs), 20 infantry squads and their transports plus two 88's. I upgraded some tanks and men and the value went to 3890 but the numbers remain at 80 TOTAL units. That's about 1 unit in every 150X150 meter grid at placement for me - a lot of ground for an infantry squad of 10 men to cover (1 man for 15 X 15 meters) or one AFV in 150X150. And let's remember 20 of my units are transports for the men.....

The AI is buying the expensive stuff like Matilda II and weighing in at 175 to 350 units in meeting engagements on the 80X80 map.

I guess I don't understand the map size versus unit numbers/quality statement? What is appropriate?

Are you saying I have to spread my 80 units out over a 120X120 map or bigger just so the AI will buy realistic quantities and types?



I'm not saying you 'have to' do anything, I'm just thinking your game would be better with a larger map. I must admit I'm somewhat confused. I got the idea that you had like 170 units. Perhaps you were talking about the enemy (even then you can see how close it is to the limit)? Now you're saying the AI has had over 300? How is that possible?????

For what I used to play the various SP's on a 80 height map, 80 units is probably a pretty good amount, though it isn't the marvelous adventure I'm seeing, still. I will probably never have more than 135 units on that 200 height map.

[snake]

DRG,
Yes, oddly for me, the next mission was an assault against the Brits and the force value was quite reasonable. In fact, with my almost 5000 point buy for auxillaries (lots of art), it was rather one sided.
I wish I had saves of those previous meeting engagements where my force was similar and GB's was so outrageous.

Still, I'm having great fun! Thanks again.

Charles,
I wish you could have seen my battle against the Belgians. I had the force I mentioned at an earlier equipment and training value and the map was covered with Belgian units - 320 at game end. Some of the meets against GB were almost as bad as you see 10-11 pages of units for player two at games end and 69 matilda II's to boot!
I wish I had saved those before moving on.

Snake

[Charles22]

I suppose the 200 unit limit is just for the human core then, or maybe the core plus support.

[snake]

Charles,
I just had to post this. My first mission against the Russians in 6/41 was an assault followed by a "special" delay.

My force value is 4420 and I still have 80 total units (20 infantry, 20 transports, 15 pzIII h, 12 pz IV e, 3 Stg IIIe, 3 Jgpz 41, 5 Pz IIf, and two 88's. I was allowed 500 pts for my buy which I used for 4 88's and 7 MG units.

The Russian force was 525 UNITS (almost 22 pages of units!) of which 247 were AFV's with 10 KV 2's and 20 KV1E's! OMG!

The end of that game is attached, thank god the visibility was great and the terrain flat AND I bought some extra AT!

I still say this 'trend' is crazy.....

[Mobhack]

snake said:
Charles,
I just had to post this. My first mission against the Russians in 6/41 was an assault followed by a "special" delay.

My force value is 4420 and I still have 80 total units (20 infantry, 20 transports, 15 pzIII h, 12 pz IV e, 3 Stg IIIe, 3 Jgpz 41, 5 Pz IIf, and two 88's. I was allowed 500 pts for my buy which I used for 4 88's and 7 MG units.

The Russian force was 525 UNITS (almost 22 pages of units!) of which 247 were AFV's with 10 KV 2's and 20 KV1E's! OMG!

The end of that game is attached, thank god the visibility was great and the terrain flat AND I bought some extra AT!

I still say this 'trend' is crazy.....



Well, your panzer 4s are worth 65 or so points each, and your halftracks are 22 or so. Your panzer 2s are worth 49 points at this experience.

You have a largely armoured core force, with a mech inf coy and absolutely no artillery that I could see, not even a mortar.

The Soviets are ADVANCING which means they get TWICE your points (9000 or so vs your 4500 or so). Note - POINTS and not NUMBERS.

At this point in the war, the Soviets are verging on GREEN status for the entire army. Some inits will be green, some will nudge into slightly better status. Rally will be about 40, morale 50. The points values reflect this. A rifle section that would cost 20 at "normal" exp 70 and morale, costs these green troops only 13 points. A t26 which has a standard cost of 41 points, is only 27 at this pathetic morale and experience.

poor experience = will not get as many shot opportunities, will lose a few more if they move etc. and will not hit as well.

Poor morale and rally ratings means they will have trouble when they get into difficulties. They will retreat and rout a lot.

They buy about 430 units, which is almost the maximum of 500 (current exe & OOBS with the revised armour costs). With the revised pick, in this period they use BT and T-26 a lot, plus T-26 lights with 2 MG turret and so you will see maybe 2-3 KV at this points level. They also buy infantry, which is cheap (2 platoons will cost about the same as your single P4).

(I hardle ever buy any mech infantry, infantry in this period walked and APCS were rare, and I find them a bit of a liability in the delay if part of the core. I limit myself to maybe 1 platoon of such for the advance giuard, and a mobile reserve in defence. If I need APCs I buy from the support points, in an advance or attack, or just move them on the tanks to a debussing area, and walk in from there. Core APCS will steadily improve, and so contribute to core points value growth. I would rather spend those points on another leg coy which is more use in the delay or defend)

I looked at your save game, and you had already broken the Russian attack with minimal losses to yourself. And without any artillery either!.

So - I fail to see the problem. The low experience and morale of the 41 Soviets (Stalins purges) means you will fight a horde of poor-quality and poorly motivated troops with poor quality leaders. This results in them having a numbers count of about 150% of a "default" 70 exp/morale force. About 11/12 of 41, Moscow and Leningrad, they start to get better, and you may also meet experienced Siberian companies and then Guards formations.

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

Andy,
So you are saying that the Russians can buy 525 units including 30 KV heavy tanks and some 200 others with 9000 points at this point in the game.
And, I won't see this later on when their morale/experience is better? We'll see. BTW, I keep seeing Soviet Marines instead of regular grunts. The previous assault mission was against ALL marines and they weren't slouches.
My next mission is another delay.....
The British are still buying over twice (average 175-200)as many units as I do in North Africa even when they delay and their morale and experience is pretty darn good - I have to kill 10-11 infantry to get a squad to disperse and over 80% of their force before it breaks. They still buy lots of matildas and valentines, 30 or 40, but it's a lot better than the 90 they were getting!

I buy artillery with my support points or 88's since I seem to see so many heavy tanks from every nation I've fought against. At 500 measly support points, I can't buy but one set of 75 artillery so I spend it on the AT.
As to the Russian demise, thank god for clear weather and flat terrain - anything else and I bet I wouldn't have survived.
Hmmm, maybe I'll delte the mech part of my infantry and see what kind of points I save.....

How is the patch coming? I need my smoke back!

Snake

[Mobhack]

marines are supposed to be a 15% chance, if remining points > 500 as well , so very rare.

You have a lot of panzer 4 with the 75mm HE chucker (half your force). I concentrate on the P3 with decent 50 L/42 and then L60 when I can get them, and have not more than 1/3 of P4 for infantry CS. Probably just a section of 2, whose job is to acompany each leg rifle coy, and I generally prefer stugs for inf CS as the armour is usually better (embarrasing if they get a track hit though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

Panzer 2 I find worthless in any number. A section or 2 for recce, and as reserves in the defence (they have better armour than the GE armoured cars, which I really did not bother with, as and until the Puma arrives, then I replace any P2 with them).

Brandenbergers in the core is just, well silly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif - these are "special farces" and were rarely seen, definately not a part of a line panzergrenadier coy!. Should really be limited to historical scenarios. Rather expensive.

A core arty battery will increase in experience - so should be bought at the start. Experienced batteries arrive faster, and perform CB fires more often.

An observer in the core (I always by mine just after the A0 so it is right there on page 1 of the units display, easy to find) will gain experience, hence will call arty quicker. Combined with experienced core arty, faster responses.

You have 15 sabot rounds with the P3s, and even the 50/L42 will execute matildas and valentines at 300M with this round, especialy if you engage halted, get above 80% to-hit and so some "special" hits. The L/60 will stretch that to 4-500M, and the plain AP round is good. Get into positions where the valentines are coming to you (over a ridge say) and wait till they show at 3-400m.. (use your arty and mortars to drop smoke, at a pinch your infantry, if necessary, or use battlefield smoke e.g. from wrecks).

Remeber that the germans used to try to coax enemy armour onto a Pak front. Some 50mmL60 ATG and also when available, the long captured soviet 57mm is good. (the 57 I have picked off valentines at 600M with ISTR). They can move a hex, unlike 88s and 75s so can adjust position slightly, but in the core a transport light truck is a useful side-kick. Get to an objective cluster and set up a pak front onto the approaches, preferably with a 3-500m fielsd of fire, some grunts out front to protect the Pak. Wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You should have about 4-6 on board arty barrels in your core. use these to break up approaching infantry, drop on tanks to button them up (cannot spot as easily, get unhappy, and hitting is worse if supressed). The arty bursts will cause battlefield smoke at the point of contact, which your P3 can use to reduce the engagement range to the 250-350M sort of range they can deal with matildas at (and T34 etc). Even frontally. (Ignore any long range duels till you get the 75L43). Be prepared to stalk the beasties (e.g. round a hill or trees) to get the flank shots on valentines.

Also - use your on map arty, if thy have the range, to chop any AI on-map batteries. When you fire CB on a battery of 4 or so guns - use maximum effort, target all that reaches as a "hammer blow". NB - the 15cm Sig (with ammo supply units) - is a very effective CN tool. Also good for chewing up approach roads (e.g. on winter maps or wooden bridges over water).

Always take the P3 models with at least 5cm armour on both hull and turret front, preferably 6 and 7cm versions. Ensure you dont expose your flanks to 2-pounder. with 5 armour, you are reasonably safe v 2 pounder shot at 750M, with 6 definately rather safer.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
I just had to post this. My first mission against the Russians in 6/41 was an assault followed by a "special" delay.

My force value is 4420 and I still have 80 total units (20 infantry, 20 transports, 15 pzIII h, 12 pz IV e, 3 Stg IIIe, 3 Jgpz 41, 5 Pz IIf, and two 88's. I was allowed 500 pts for my buy which I used for 4 88's and 7 MG units.

The Russian force was 525 UNITS (almost 22 pages of units!) of which 247 were AFV's with 10 KV 2's and 20 KV1E's! OMG!

The end of that game is attached, thank god the visibility was great and the terrain flat AND I bought some extra AT!

I still say this 'trend' is crazy.....



OH MY GOODNESS! So I guess the 200 unit maximum is just for the core size? I ought to experiment and pick 199 units in the core and see if it will let me pick more than one support unit. I suspect somebody has an answer to this.

I read further into the thread, and for me I find no problem with picking HT's in my core. I like to assign them to my most effective ground unit, which in my case doesn't mean PZG's. I'm using SS infantry for those HT's or engineers, or Brandenburgers. I just like the feel of having one platoon of HT's that if they survive the battles will have very effective MG fire. Seeing as how I don't intend to expose them to anti-tank fire too much they could be a nice little punch in dealing with soft targets. The reasoning is that though my main punch comes from tanks, the enemy will naturally prefer shooting at tanks, so the tanks may get destroyed fairly regularly and not benefit from extended fighting too much. Another thing I like to do with HT's is to use them as my core gun transport (particularly ATG's). In the defensive mission they're gun transports, while in the offensive mission they're perhaps my engineer transport.

When playing the Germans I buy one section of what I think falls under heavy artillery. They're like 100mm and have a range of 214, which is a very high number. They're my counter-battery for the most part, and I will pick 2-4 on-map IG's as the rest of my core artillery. The reason I like IG's (75's and 150's) is because I can evade counter-artillery by moving them without transport. I will always have the heavy transport for what 88ATG's I have available, because the danger of losing a support truck by having them close is insignificant to losing an 88. The IG's aren't too costly to lose anyway. I don't think IG artillery really loses or gains very much by being in the core, but if I don't pick them in the core I just won't do it. I don't know why, but as much as I like them I'm much more prone to buy off-map arty while picking support and completely forget the IG's.

I definitely like to have about 6-10 AA guns in my core, as I can't get enough protection and hope time will make them very good. I really hate that the SPAA don't have any armor at all, because that sure limits how much I can slaughter enemy infantry with them after all the enemy armor has been dispatched. Well at least it keeps me from getting them hit at all. That can be the problem with my HT's, they have armor so I sometimes get them into range of enemy ATR's, but a range of 10 hexes you wouldn't expect they would get hit very much anyway. I guess that's part of the early game frustration when you use HT's to fight at all, as they're MG's are so ineffective at the start that you compensate by getting them in closer. An armor-less SPAA? No problem keeping them out of ATR range, though sometimes I'm still dumb enough to get them within 'LMG' range. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Mobhack]

OH MY GOODNESS! So I guess the 200 unit maximum is just for the core size? I ought to experiment and pick 199 units in the core and see if it will let me pick more than one support unit. I suspect somebody has an answer to this.




Yes. you have a limit of 200 for your core, and then the normal 500 unit limit applies, unless it is a special battle that requres a set-aside for special units (rubber rafts or landing barges) where you have less of an upper limit as the assaulter in a beach or river crossing.

Steel Panthers I had a core limit of 24, and an upper limit of about 50 units.
Steel Panthers II had a core of 50, max about 100 methinks (the above being from distant memory).

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

Andy, you said:
Yes. you have a limit of 200 for your core, and then the normal 500 unit limit applies, unless it is a special battle that requres a set-aside for special units (rubber rafts or landing barges) where you have less of an upper limit as the assaulter in a beach or river crossing.

Check out my save game again and you'll count more than 500 Russians and it wasn't a beach assault or river crossing so no special units are present. I don't think the limit for AI picks is 500. I'm playing another delay and I'm sure there are more than 500 units again.

As to Art, I suppose it's because I wanted to play lots of small battles than I chose a force value of 3000. Not a lot of unit picks left after using 1000 points for art units (4-6 batteries).
Yes, my Pz 2's aren't great but I tried to pick a realistic kind of heavy tank with mech inf force and I wanted some variety. At the beggining, I had no idea that the 3000 value would keep inflanting with experience though I expected updating equipment would. I threw in some brandenburgers and some SS smg inf just to see if they were really better. Actually, I think in some ways it's worse because the SS and Brandenburgers don't retreat! Blasted high morale idiots stay in their hex and keep getting wasted instead of popping smoke and running a little like all the dang opponents. So frustrating to hit 1 guy and watch them run a hex, hit one, run, and so on while my guys just stand up and say shoot me!
High morale shouldn't mean high stupidity.......

Here are a couple of points - should these be posted in bugs?
1. I find that collateral damage hits stop weapons fire. For instance, a tank with a 75mm HE shot fires it's weapons at a unit. Normally, even if taking a casualty and NOT running, the other tank's weapons TMG and BMG's fire as well.
But, I've noticed that if the HE round forces a unit in an adjacent hex to take a casualty or even a retreat, the remaining tank weapons cease to fire at the original hex. I don't think this is correct. Why should a casualty in an adjacent hex cause the remaining weapons to quit at a totally different target?

2. If I shoot at a hex with a friendly unit in or adjacent to the target hex, my units often take suppression, casualties or even kills (on average, at least 30% of the time I get a hit on my guys.) If I shoot into an hex containing more than one enemy, everybody can and has been hit on occassion.
Fine. So I figure I'll move my tanks into a hex with enemy units (usually routed) after all my fire figuring in his turn he'll shoot my units and damage HIS as well.
Well, I've done this dozens of times and replayed turns dozens of times and I've never seen an enemy unit EVER take any casualty or damage from it's own friendly fire.
Yes, his own art will do his own guys but I've never seen an infantry casualty to one of his squads when his other squads fire into the hex containing my guys, AFV's or Inf. Never and I've done it a lot!
Sometimes, my own inf guys retreat into a hex with his inf and in his turn he fires dozens of times with many different units (inf and guns) into that hex and never hits anything but me. If I shoot into the same situation I always hurt my own units.

Does the AI have a no hurt policy to make up for it being an AI?

Charles,
How big a force do you usually buy so you can afford all that AA and art?

Snake

[Charles22]

Snake: Well I'm usually limiting myself to 3,250 points these days. Depending on the nation I'm playing, I end up with between 95-115 core units. That force value is based on the 1939 Germans. Naturally if I'm starting later I might have to bump up the core value a bit, but most nations are cheaper than the Germans, for one reason because they start off the earliest.

I wouldn't worry about you core value going up if I were you. All the nations units go up with time, and the only way you can play with a force effective to the time period is to not worry about how expensive it gets. Besides, if you don't like having any AA in your core, for example, you can always use some of the upgrade points to add them into the core later.

I like to think of my force as that nation's best, but I also won't exclude some really sub-par sort of equipment like the PZIA's, PZIID's and a few others, just so I have to deal with some of the issues the real commanders had to deal with. If I have nothing but the best of every tank the Germans had for the time period, for example, the game could get boring pretty quick, as the AI isn't constantly going to keep buying nothing but CharB's , Matilda's, and KV's. I like to have a sense of peril. I also normally carry a couple of elite infantry type platoons in my core so my infatry is normally better then the enemies, but it's not too bad since their impact is limited, and I use them almost strictly in defense and if my armor is working very well, not even then. So I generally will have either 5 or 6 platoons of infantry in core, with two being elites of some sort while 1-2 are engineers, and then the rest are basic infantry, with sometimes one of those being a platoon of the shoddiest infantry (recruits etc).

I'm pretty set on how much and what types of units I like to go with in my core over time, but the one thing that perplexes me a bit is if I should have a section of bazooka type troops in core, but at least in this game if I don't like the ATR's early I can later add in the panzershreck boys to the core in the case of the Germans. I definitely wouldn't bother with panzerfaust units, because the basic infantry all pretty much get them as a secondary weapon.