Armoured trains

[Gud]

Yeah, here comes my pet obsession.

I'd love to see armoured trains in the game someday. Fair enough, a number of you will rise your eyebrows and go "wtf ?", which is a bit understable as this particular weapon was never really popular in the West, let alone USA.

However, the more East you go, the more important the "railway tanks" become. They were used a lot, in particular when they were not in danger of air attacks.

I realize that coding them so they move along railways would be a bit too much, however perhaps having a few extra unit classes so that we can make individual carriages/wagons/drasines and deploy them in player-made scenarios/campaigns ? Pretty phleeze http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)))))

[thatguy96]

You could easily do this with unused tank classes. I think someone had previously suggested that it would be fine so long as you and your opponents agreed to only move them along rail hexes and the like.

[narwan]

A number of new ways to use waypoints have been developed recently (by Pyros in particular; see the Kalpaki scenario for example) which MAY allow units under AI control to follow fixed movement paths. There's plenty of room though for the movement to veer off course somewhat so it will be tricky (and maybe impossible) to keep the 'train' moving solely on the railway tracks.
It will need a lot of work (testing in particular) for this to work in a scenario. If someone wants to put the effort in and try to find ways to make it work (which isn't garantueed to succeed btw) for a specific scenario it would be very interesting indeed.
But don't expect trains to make an appearance as regular features of the game. There are simply too many obstacles to overcome within the existing limitations of the code.

For PBEM games it can work, except off course when movement is under AI control, for example when a unit retreats due to suppression. The train could then move off the tracks. You can minimise this risk by making sure that the railway runs straight east to west; that'll increase the chance that the train will retreat along the path of the railway track but it is still possible it'll retreat in another direction (especially with multiple enemy units nearby).

Another trick would be to put impassable terrain along the railway track so the train can't move into those hexes. Unfortunately the same will apply to most other units too (vehicles especially) so this will limit the trick to use for set-ups and scenario's with infantry and few vehicles.

Narwan

[Helm]

I'd love to see armoured trains TBH but can see how the limitations of the AI could screw it up though

[MarkSheppard]

Or you could have the armored trains be "immobilized" on the track, representing them stopping to offload infantry and fire on partisans.

[DRG]

You are NOT going to see armoured trains. This is getting a little old as it's brought up each time we release and we give the same answer over and over and over.

As for.........."perhaps having a few extra unit classes ". We have the maximum allowed number of unit classes in both games. There will be no new ones now or ever.

Don

[Gud]

Ok, fine, I'll drive one over to your house Don (providing you have any railway tracks nearby) and I bet when you'll see one of those beauties you will fall in love on the spot ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Seriously tho - I understand, sniff sniff

[Mobhack]

Hmm - just get onto the Microsioft Train Simulator message boards, and ask there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

Hmm - may be useful in railroad Tycoon as well, add extra "leverage" to any takeover negotiations between companies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif !

Cheers
Andy

[PopskiPPA]

DRG said:
This is getting a little old as it's brought up each time we release and we give the same answer over and over and over.

Don



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Just like barbed wire ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Popski

[PatG]

Ok then have a look at the attachment (scen slot 335). About 10 minutes work with no attempt at realism. The lead "somua" is unloadable as is the infantry carrying coach - however the "rolling stock" will displace in the hex. Sadly - it doesn't move.

However, with some custom Icon work - it could be workable.

Anyone know of any good shpedit tutorials?

[Starmyth]

Hmmm. I'm not liking the concept of Panzertrains.

[Helm]

I'm wondering if it would be possible to design a very small map "skirmish type" game using the dismounted turret type pillbox units etc which have no actual movement,it wouldn't look pretty but it might work,any thoughts from people who (unlike me lol) actually know what they are doing with scenario design etc ?

[PatG]

Re: Helm
That's pretty much what my proof of concept attachment was about - ugly as sin but covers the bases. By editing a unit within the scen generator one could put together a passable armoured train. A MKIV from above looks a lot like a BP44 pursuit car. The dummy Somua uses the tank transport idea from the Spanish OOB to represent the tank carrying cars.

I am thinking about making a small partisan/train scenario - I'll post it here if/when it's done.

One problem stands out and that is density. Each hex is 50m that covers a lot of train - and a lot of guns. (realisticly 2x75L 1x 4x20mmAA, 6-8 mg and a bunch of squaddies for dismount would be historical) - IF we were to go ahead with graphics, we would need a "generic" armoured train icon at reduced scale spanning a hex width and several "no icon" units to represent the actual firing groups.

[thatguy96]

Listy did something similar in his UK OOBs where he created a whole ship in three parts, for the middle and the fore and aft sections, each with the appropriate armament. Of course the issue there is that all the parts move seperately, but if you have a train stopped with no movement, It should be fine.

[MarkSheppard]

Crossposted from another forum I'm a member of

***************************************

Panzerzug!

Armored Train Tidbits

I recently acquired four books on armored trains; German Armored Trains In World War II, German Armored Trains In World War II Volume 2 and German Armored Trains on the Russian Front 1941-1944 all by Wolfgang Sawodny plus Armored Trains of the Soviet Union 1917-1945 by Wilfried Kopenhagen. The first two German books are technical histories, the third is an operational history and the Soviet book is mainly a technical history. All of them are mainly photos but with plenty enough of informative text and all are published by Schiffer Military History. According to Wolfgang Sawodny his first armored train book, published in 1989 was the first book on the subject known to exist, at least in western press and his later works where possible only because the book caused many armored train veterans to come forward.

Each book costs ten bucks new and if you have ANY interest in the subject I suggest buying them. It was more then worth it; you certainly won’t find much information on the internet, I’ve looked and most of it COMES from these books, nor do many if any other books on the subject exist even now. The first two German books are a bit redundant in text, but all three of them are at least 90% new photos, redundant photos are only used when a correction is being made to the identification text. Some photos are included specifically in a search for information on them.



Now for the tidbits, well more then tidbits, but anyway…

While there was a truly immense diversity of armored trains in German service, including capture Polish, Chinch and Russian units, and mixtures of Russian and German cars plus many ‘one off’ cars improvised in depots Germany did developed and produce a standardized type, called BP 42 (BP = series). This train had ten cars and symmetrical, with an armored locomotive designated BR 57 (BR = class) locomotive based off the Prussian State railway G10 at the center. This engine had an armored tender forward and behind for extended range. While it is not explicitly stated I believe the forward tended probably held only water, as steam trains need water more often then coal.

Moving from front to the first tender the train was arranged as follows.

The first car was a ‘pusher car’, basically a flatbed car with track repair material. It protected the train from pressure mines and from being rammed by other trains or freight cars loaded with explosives, a tactic employed in the Russian Revolution.
The next car was the tank carrier car; it held a single dismountable tank, normally a captured French Somua S. 35 or Czech LT-38. Armored skirts protected the tanks running gear, and a ramp was permanently attached to the front of the car, to dismount the ‘pusher car’ as uncoupled (this could be done remotely) and the train reversed, the tank then rolled down the fixed ramp and into action.
After this came the first artillery car, it mounted a captured Soviet 76.2mm gun designated 7.62-cm F.K. 295/1(r) at the front, and a quadruple 20mm flak gun aft, superfiring. It also had a roof mounted searchlight.
The next car was a command car; the command cars served several purposes, besides command and radio facilities they also held the trains, medical facilities, various supplies, bunks and part of the infantry detachment, normally one platoon per train besides the basic crew. The command car had no fixed armament, but it did have a fixed observation cupola on the roof, and like the artillery cars it had numerous firing ports with movable shutters for infantry weapons.
Next came another artillery car, also with a fixed observation cupola and a gun turret with a captured 100mm gun designated 10-cm-le.F.H 14/19(p). The next car was the forward tender; the rear of the train had the same car arrangement only reserved for symmetry. Each group of two artillery + command cars had connecting armored tunnels, and besides side hatches some cars had a hatch on the bottom, protected by vertical armor, so that men could dismount between the rails while under enemy fire.

Besides its basic cars, each train also had an assigned pair of captured French Panhard 4x4 armored scout cars, designated Panhard 38(f) in German service (I don’t know what the French designation is) and armed with a 25mm cannon and a machine gun. The cars could run on rails or roads and the wheel change took only ten minutes, however the second set of wheels couldn’t be carried on the scout car.

The train armor was sloped on the scale of 15-30mm, it provided complete protection including protection to the wheels and axles; aside from the locomotive and tenders all cars had two axles. Because the axle load of a railway car is limited, this issue made it impossible to upgrade the armor protection in the future. In addition, by 1943 the main threat to armored trains besides air attacks was command (rather then pressure) detonated mines (or IEDs if you like) which could strike any car, usually these mines destroyed or damaged 1-3 cars and often the train could continue operating or at least withdraw its self for repairs. To improve IED protection some cars had wooden crossties stacked underneath.

Some BP 42 trains had slightly different armaments, they might have all four guns as 7.62 or 10cm types, in some cases they went into action with 120mm mortars instead of the howitzers, and the 20mm quad flak was sometimes replaced by a twin 37mm type.

However the BP 42 was flawed, it was so powerful that partisans would simply not engage them; they planted mines or ran away. The train was relatively cumbersome for the anti partisan role in any case, as it cruised at no more then 40kph and simply wasn’t fast enough to respond to individual partisan attacks. It also lacked any effective anti tank weapons, and this combine with the thin armor made it unsuited to conventional combat. The trains where none the less very effective deterrents, and the dismount tanks and infantry platoons could seek out the partisans away from the rails.

To solve these problems, the Germans introduced several changes. The first was the improved BP 44 (introduced with armored train no. 73 in early 1944) armored train. This train retained the same number of cars and basic arrangement as BP 42, but with the ‘pusher car’ deleted. Since partisans used command detonated mines, it offered little protection and was replaced by an ‘armored pursuit car’ or ‘Panzerjager car’. This was also based on a flatcar, but with a superstructure and a Panzer IV turret with L48 75mm gun, though sometimes a captured T-34 76 turret was fitted owing to a chronic shortage of ‘armored pursuit cars’. The artillery armament was standardized with four German built 10.5cm-F.H. 18M howitzers.

This all made the trains more powerful, but it did not make them more effective against partisans. The solution to that was in a whole new concept of armored train. Instead of a series of cars pulled by a locomotive, the new ‘light scout car’ and ‘heavy scout car’ armored trains employ a series of individually powered armored trolleys, each with a 76hp engine. While the ‘heavy scout car’ train was no faster at 40kph then the BP 42 or BP 44 they could travel three times as far without refueling, and both trains could split into several smaller groups or even individual cars, allowing far more ground to be covered. Besides which, each car was much lighter, and could operate on inferior track which could not support a larger train. The ‘light scout car’ type could reach 70kph, a great increase, though high speed was a big risk if the train struck a mine.

The ‘light scout car’ type had ten uniform cars, with eight sided sloped armor sides (each end had three facets) and two fixed observation copulas. The only armament was machine guns, for which two flank and four end ports where provided plus a number of additional loopholes. Armor was uniform at 14.5mm.

The ‘heavy scout car’ type had twelve armored cars with varying equipment. This consisted of one command car, one tactical transport car for the infantry, two basic infantry cars (not sure what the difference between types is) armed with various machine guns and a pair of 81mm mortars (total, not per car), one engineer car with machine guns and a flame thrower, one transport car for dismount artillery, four gun cars with a Panzer III or more often Panzer IV turret with L24 gun (sometimes mortars owing to a tank turret shortage) plus two anti aircraft cars each with quad 20mm flak. In addition the train had two tank carrier cars like the BP 42/44 and two pusher cars like BP 42. Like the larger standard armored trains two Panhard armored cars where also attached. The train carried 25 infantry, and could operate in any configuration with automatic coupling and uncoupling.

However a shortage of material mean very few of either train type was built; though some individual armored rail cars based on the designs also operated. Work on ten heavy scout car trains began, but only two made it into service fully functional.
**

An interesting prototype Panzejager for uber anti tank firepower had four axles and mounted a Panzer IV turret with L48 gun at each end, with a cool looking two level cupola in the center. However while the idea was suggested in 1943, by the time it was built a material and above all tank turret shortage made it impossible to implement mass production, only three got completed and may never have been used.

**

In August 1944, after many losses in Russia and ever increasing demand in the Balkans armored train construction priority was placed at the second highest level. This was a priority level equivalent to Panther and Tiger tank production!

**

With typical Teutonic precision, early German armored locomotives used ‘form fitting’ armor which followed the contours of the engine. This however made the work complex, and what was more all the angles created a maze of shot traps! Later locomotives used uniform ‘slab sided’ armor which stood off from the engine and provided better protection, it also made maintenance easier as workmen could get in behind the plating.

***

More to come…

[PatG]

I've drawn up a generic tank-engine. It looks pretty good but I need more information on scaling. I'm looking at some of the existing shp files to rob for turrets etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If any interested parties have top down views of rolling stock - esp armoured units but even flat cars and passenger cars would be good, I would love to see them.

Once I get a few more done, I'll post them as Icon0110.shp which remains un-used at the moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PatG]

Release early and release often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The attached file is in no way official and may very well corrupt your game and cause the next world apocalypse. Use at your own discretion. Which at the moment means unzipping into the graphics folder, loading it up in SHPedit and looking at it.

I am not an artist so no whining about the quality. :p I have gone with "European" sized rolling stock with one car per hex.

A "proof of concept" scenario is in the works.

[PatG]

Here we go again!

Attached is the latest version of Icon0110.shp, a bmp of the icons so far and a proof of concept scenario 343 Winter Wolves.

As always, not approved by the powers that be and may corrupt your game, cause impotence and affect the outcome of the world cup.

Enjoy!

[MarkSheppard]

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8422/panzerzug4fv.gif

Picture of the Panzerzug scenario, looks pretty good in my opinion; 1 hex per car is about right I think.

[Helm]

looks ok to me

[markgame]

This is getting to be one of my favorite threads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif.

Would someone enlighten us on what would be considered the normal operational use of armored trains? For instance, would the train halt to return fire if fired upon by partisans? Also, were there special devices or techniques used to detect or disarm potential mines or explosives on or under the rails?

I'll post any information I come across as well.

[PatG]

My admittedly limited source (German armoured trains in WWII - Schiffer Military Volume 17) states that attempts to use them offensively to capture bridges etc in the early war were unsucessful. It seems that they were often used as support - especially in anti partisan operations. Code limitations mean they cannot move and passengers cannot fire while loaded so your best bet is to assume the train has come to a halt, and off load your squaddies. Note that some passenger cars were equipped with disembarking boxes - basicly a hatch in the floor - to allow infantry to safely unload under fire. Only real game effect would be to increase survivability (I think).

Unarmed flat cars were used at either end of the train to detonate mines etc. Sometimes troops and support weapons were added on top with ersatz armour.

[PatG]

And for today's offering:

Somua S-35 tank carrier

Panhard 38(f) Armoured car with radio aerial - had both rail and road wheels.

Wooden flat with sandbags and infantry

Gondola with sandbags and infantry

New SPWW2Trains readme with some design notes.
And a new bmp of the set.

Usual cautions about compatibility and corruption apply - use at your own risk.

[PatG]

narwan said:
<snip>
Another trick would be to put impassable terrain along the railway track so the train can't move into those hexes. Unfortunately the same will apply to most other units too (vehicles especially) so this will limit the trick to use for set-ups and scenario's with infantry and few vehicles.

Narwan



I realize this will never happen but what could be used is:

1) a unit class "Rail"
2) a clone of the clear terrain that is IMpassable ONLY to class Rail units. - call it right-of-way
3) As Narwan suggests, lay right-of-way terrain along either side of the tracks and voila - a corridor restricting train movement.
4) Figure out some way to make a train move as a unit rather than as a collection of independant cars.

Again I do not expect the development team has the time or energy to pursue this and I express my eternal gratitude for their excellent work and patience with ever demanding users like me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As a nasty hack, base the trains on boat units and use rivers for rails.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PatG]

I was going to look into replacing the river shp file with the rail shp file and mess about with boats as trains to see what would happen. Thinking some more, I realized that if I posted anything like that here, I would be risking Don showing up at my door with a big stick and a nasty temper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

While picking blackberries (a task only marginally less painful than crossing barbed wire), I thought of another possibility:

If supported by the code, take the existing tramway and rail terrains and make them passable to units of class 197 river craft or similar while keeping their existing characteristics. Trains would then be based on this unit class. Problems would arise with river based units "sailing up the tracks" and with unit placement - trains on the water etc. For player generated scenarios these problems could be overcome by avoiding rails over water - the AI would be a different matter and any terrain passibility change would affect the game as a whole.

[PatG]

I think I've got it - or 75% of it anyway.

To refine my post above:

1) If supported by the code, take the existing tramway and rail terrains and make them passable by unit class 0 - Fortifications.

2) Make all other terrain impassable by unit class 0.

3) Base all trains on class 0 base units. The user will assign a move as required.

Units can be placed on terrain they cannot move through.

Since all AI usable class 0 units have move 0, there will not be any problems with unit placement or trains sailing up the river.

remaining problems:
1) controlling heading.
2) keeping trains together as units.
3) sound is not the best but I can live with it.

Any comments?

[PatG]

Here you go. Moving into independant railcars with the German heavy scout car Infantry car with radio and Pzkw IV 75mm kurz turret artillery car from 1944.

[Pyros]

Hi PatG,

You have done quite a remarkable art work!

I just wish to inform you that I probably know a way to do your train move like a train, but I can't start testing this specific technique until I will have completed the development of the ANZAC project (and after that I will also have to assist a friend of mine doing his private project), so you will have to wait for a month or two...

cheers,
Pyros

[blazejos]

And here are some sources about armoured trains:
List of all know armored trains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armoured_trains)
about armoured trains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_train)

the best page about polish armoured trains (http://derela.republika.pl/armtrain.htm)

[PatG]

Thank you Pyros. I have been following the ANZAC project - you have done some very creative work there.

[PatG]

Thanks for the links blazejos - now I can get away from a "German bias" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. It looks like the Type II artillery cars on Danuta are going to be 2 hexes long.

[PatG]

Next up, just a flat with repair materials, some additional notes on scaling and a BMP of an in game display of all the icons to date.

[PatG]

The Polish are coming the Polish are coming!

Type II artillery car as used on Danuta. Put the 100 mm in slot 4 to represent the second "front" turret.

Cheers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[blazejos]

Hey Pat thanks for this polish armoured train wagon is nice and very good. Polish painted armoured trains like a tanks because armoured trains was in Armour weapons command so in years 30-34 they were green than in 1934-1936 camo with black lines betwen green , sand and brick color and in years 1936-1939 in camo green , sand, brick without black lines see icons of polish armoured vehicles. And was too of course a winter camo with non regular white on the standart camo. Desert version dosn't exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif . You made this polish trains tickle our national pride because in armoured trains poland was a power http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PatG]

MarkSheppard said:
Crossposted from another forum I'm a member of

***************************************
(big snip)




Thanks for the information Mark - much appreciated. Do these sources give any information on armour ratings?


Thanks

[PatG]

Repaint of the Type II in 3 colours for blazejos and the Tatra drasine.
http://www.inkpotproductions.ca/graphics/polandtrain.gif

[PatG]

Sorry not Polish though.

Slot 346
Fahrkarte in die Heimat - A train ticket home.

Featuring a Soviet attack on a German train at the wars end. (yes again)

A bit better playtested and costed out but not perfect.

Conserve your Pz IV pursuit car shots for worth while targets.

The H-39 carrier gets 3 shots each of main gun and mg - to be "honest", you should use these before unloading.

If possible I would like feedback on the accuracy of the train unit values. The over all feel of the units etc.

[PatG]

An article for the Total Art of War but has generally useful information.
Soviet Armoured Trains (http://www.tdg.nu/articles/historical%20articles/Armoured%20Trains/Soviet%20Armored%20Trains.htm)

And another one for the Soviets but with drawings... If you salivate when thinking about British Independant tanks or Soviet T-35s then look at these monsters.

Armored Trains (http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/Arm_trains.htm)

[blazejos]

This last site with a rusian armoured trains was wery good. Don't forget too about railway artilery that shuld be nice see that monster guns in game as a off map artilery and as a not firing object especialy for special misions

Rusians Railroad guns
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/artillery/railroad.htm
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/Artillery/art_railroad.html
http://tanxheaven.com/nic/TM-3-12railroadgun/tm-3-12railroadgun.htm
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Content/Railwayguns/Russian/russian%20guns%201.html

Germans guns

Dora the bigest http://palpatine.chez-alice.fr/Page13/page13.htm

another
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_K5
http://www.one35th.com/model/k5/k5_gh-others.htm
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Structure/Railwayguns/Railguns%20index.html


French
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Structure/Railwayguns/Railguns%20index.html

Italian
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Structure/Railwayguns/Railguns%20index.html

British
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Structure/Railwayguns/Railguns%20index.html

United States
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Structure/Railwayguns/Railguns%20index.html

Czechoslovakian
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Structure/Railwayguns/Railguns%20index.html


History of origin railways guns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_gun
http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1961/61-12/art.html

[PatG]

My enforced vacation is over tomorrow - I have a new contract http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif - so I won't be doing as much work on the trains http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

My current priority is to complete the German heavy and light independant scout train icons and draw up a list of values to put in the scenario editor.

Next up would be to work more on the Polish trains hopefully getting enough icons done to make up one prototypical train. The TK Renault draisines look particularily interesting.

Further down the line are Russian train units.

Much further down the line - railway guns In deference to my heritage I will probably begin with British ones.

[PatG]

Here's the latest release. I chose to finish off the German Scout cars because they were the easiest to do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif In the zip are the Icons, the TO&E and the stats to plug into the scenario editor. Note to designers: The light trains were used in the Balkans. A train of 10 icons had an actual length of 2 hexes - adjust your maps and setup accordingly.

I put the stats in a text list rather than a spread sheet to keep file size down and to ensure readability regardless of OS or installed applications.

Next up Polish Armoured Train 11 "Danuta" and Train 15 "Smierc". Many cars were re-used by the Germans so more bang for the buck.

ReadMe text:
In this package:
Icon0110.shp - includes all icons up to July 09 2006
UNITS.txt - Armoured Train units expressed in terms of SPWW2 units.
German_Armoured_Trains_Stats.txt - a text list of the scen edit values for the German Light and Heavy Scout Car units.

EDIT:
In German armoured trains stats under the PzKw 38-T Carrier car, 0=Passengers are riders else APC: should read 1

Edit:
I misunderstood how heat armour works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif - Add the value in the HEAT column to the regular armour column and use this sum for the HEAT value.

[PatG]

Ok all you need to make Danuta including Ti3 locomotive and a TK-R-TK drezyna set with rotating Renault turret. The assault car is under scale for Danuta but OK for Smierc.

Enjoy.

http://inkpotproductions.ca/graphics/Danuta.gif

[Beeg]

Hi. Love the train concept. I should know this, but how do I access the icons once I've d/l them to my graphics subdirectory? What icon number(s) are they in MobHack?

Beeg

[PatG]

The icon numbers are in the README but see below.

To make an armoured train:

Open the Editor and load or create your terrain - be sure to add train tracks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.
Buy your forces. I prefer to structure the train as one unit - sometimes two if it historicly operated in two sections so for a base unit, I will select a armour platoon with the right vehicle count. Note that if you want your train units to be able to fire indirect, you must select a base unit of the right class like SP Artillery. You can use the switch unit type button to change one PZ IV of a platoon to a Wespe then modify the Wespe to get an indirect capable unit.
Deploy forces and build your train. Go to the deloy menu and set out your base unit some where convenient. Click on a vehicle and select the "change unit" button (sorry I don't have a copy of the game with me to give the right name) and change the values to represent the unit you are creating. The move must be "0". In the "Miscellaneous" section, you will be able to set the summer, winter and desert icons - at the moment I have only made Summer ones. Plug in the numbers below. Close the editor when you are done and voila - your new armoured train unit is on the map.
Adjust placement and heading as required.
Notes

Some unit stats were included in the previous release. I will be working on more but always appreciate player input.
Most armoured trains only had 1-2 cm of armour so with sloping rating will usually be no more than 3. However some strange things do show up. The Polish Ti3 locomotive has about a 2 foot gap between the plating and the boiler - I estimate probably 2 points of steel armour plus 3+ points of additional heat for a rating of 2/5.
Many armoured trains had a vast array of weapons - The Type II artillery car had 2 gun turrets 8 MG in the sides and ends and an AAMG in the top turret. However, most of these were casement mounted and could only fire to one side so one hack is to halve the numbers. The second turret weapon can be represented by using a no icon unit. In the current release use 3975. Position the unit under the non-rotating turret and change stats as before. You may want to split the total crew between the two to make each "half" a little less robust. Remember that Weapon slot 4 is for weapons with limited traverse like BMGs and main weapons like StuG guns. An AAMG in slot 4 will still fire 360 degrees.


Icon Unit
3948 Locomotive
3949 Pursuit car Pzkw IV
3950 Gondola with 20mm flak
3951 Wooden flat car
3952 Gondola
3953 Passenger car
3954 Wooden Flat car with sand bags
3955 Captured Artillery car
3956 Gondola with 4x20mm flak (Whirblewind turret)
3957 T-38 tank carrying car
3958 Somua S-35 tank carrying car 30/06/06
3959 Panhard 38 (f) mit Funk 30/06/06
3960 Wooden flat with sandbags and infantry 30/06/06
3961 Gondola with infantry 30/06/06
3962 Heavy Scout car Infantry 04/07/06
3963 Heavy Scout car with PzkwIV turret 04/07/06
3964 Flat car with repair supplies 05/07/06
3965 Polish Type II artillery 100px 06/07/06 revised 16/07/06
3966 Polish Tatra armoured drezya 07/07/06
3967 Light Scout car 09/07/06
3968 Heavy Scout car with Flak 09/07/06
3969 Polish Ti3 locomotive 100px
3970 Polish R drezyna Non-rotating turret
3971 Polish Tk drezyna
3972 Polish Tk-R-Tk drezyna set rotating turret
3973 Large flat (100px)
3974 Polish Assault car - Compromise Smierc size, Danuta profile.

[PatG]

I found my Type II a little too lightly coloured so I'm re-working the paint scheme.

Second - and very cool - I discovered thar units stack in in the same order they appear in the list. For example, B1 will appear on top of B0 if they are stacked in the same hex. What this means for trains is that if you make the icon for B0 the 100px main body of the artillery car with its turret, then make B1 a stand alone turret and place it in the same hex as the "end" of B0, the B1 turret will "float" over the B0 car and you now have one unit with two turrets - both of which rotate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So a repaint of Danuta and hopefully a demo scenario then onto either the Russian Monsters or the German twin-turret jobs with long 75mms.

I love the smell of anthracite in the morning.... it smells like - well you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PatG]

Off for a weeks holiday so thought I should throw something out for you to play with.

Three things in the zip - the latest Icon0110.shp with recoloured two turret Type II arty wagons, 363 Eisen Bahn - another proof of concept scenario not balanced at all but gives you a heavy scout car train to play with and 364 Danuta! a Polish defend against German advance - much better balanced but I'm still no scenario designing genius.

Enjoy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PatG]

Just a quick update.

I have been mucking around with Pyros' waypoint ideas and have had some success with getting trains to move along the tracks. Retreats and routs cause problems and road crossings can lead to some unusual effects when the AI decides the road looks better than the rails.

Since I suck at scenario design, I'm working on a modified OOB for Blue to hold all the trains to make it easier for better skilled scenario designers to get stuck in. Yes that's a hint. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Big advantages will be:

one click will get you a prototypical train like Danuta, BP42/44 or the German Light and Heavy Scout Car trains with all the appropriate squaddies etc. - no more hacking armoured platoons and poking in values.
Selectable individual units to "build your own".
Generic track guarding trains with mixed and captured kit.
New shps for captured Polish and Russian kit in German colours.
Proper LBMs (I hope).
New sounds should you chose to make mobile trains.


It may be a while but stay tuned.

[Helm]

Sounds like you are doing a great job mate.Hope somebody does pick this up and build some scenarios around it after all your work

[Pyros]

Hi PatG,

I am currently on Summer vacations, but sometime after September I will try to find a way to simulate the train effect with the existing game mechanism.

cheers,
Pyros

[PatG]

Helm - Thanks for the support.
Pyros - Efharisto poli.

The first pass on a modified Blue OOB should be ready for posting in the OOB section in a day or two. Nothing new in terms of the shp files but the units are looking good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PatG]

And the beta Blue oob for trains is now in the OOB section. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif