View Full Version : CS Cruiser Tanks Ammo loadout
August 3rd, 2006, 06:45 AM
I have been reading the manual for the atomic game "Crusader" wich mentions that the A9, A10, A13 CS tanks 3.7 inch howitzer could only fire smoke! not HE as currently modelled in the game.
Looking on the internet I found,
From this site
For the A9
"To fulfill this role the CS (Close Support) version was developed, with a 3.7-in Howitzer replacing the 2-pdr, it could fire a 4.77kg smoke shell instead. An HE shell was also produced, but was in short supply in North Africa. When 3 RTR went to Calais in May 1940, they got there only to find that the HE shells, for their A9 CS tanks, had been left on the dockside in the UK."
For the A10
As with the A9 a CS (Close Support) version was developed in parallel with the main tank. It was armed with a 3.7-in Mortar (Howitzer) OQF MK I, which was a single shot weapon and could only fire smoke. In battle the CS versions would accompany the Squadron Headquarters of the tank regiment protecting the gun tanks with smoke screens for them to manoeuvre. Only 30 CS versions were built.
For the A13
The CS version, of the A13 MK IV, was again fitted with a 3.7-in Mortar (Howitzer) OQF MK I which was a single shot weapon and could only fire smoke. This was rapidly becoming a disadvantage and this was the last tank to be fitted with it.
This Site goes on to detail that the A13 Mk II CS didnt have MGs.
"Had a 3.7" (94mm) howitzer installed in the turret. This gun only fired smoke rounds, 40 of which were carried."
"Had a 3.7" (94 mm) howitzer in the turret instead of the 2 pdr. The standard ammunition load was 40 rounds smoke, and a few HE shells"
I wonder if these 3 tanks could have their ammo loadouts changed from HE to Smoke?
August 3rd, 2006, 08:14 AM
What a devious idea, tanks firing smoke only .. Typically British, isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
I also read the history of the Matilda MkI, which was to cost so much that in the end the tank was just armed with a single MG http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
August 3rd, 2006, 12:14 PM
Well - the SP game engine does not model smoke as a separate ammo type. (mentioned in the Mobhack help somewhere I think?). Smoke in SP is generated as an extra data item in the unit generation code. A few smoke shells are given, depending on unit class (A CS tank unit class element will have a few more than average). Smoke shells are treated as smoke grenades (if infantry) or shells with the range of the slot 1 weapon, if vehicles, added as a unit creation extra data item to an generated unit (it is not OOB data). A unit in a scenario can therefore have the smoke ammo amount modified as it is now created in the game.
But not in an OOB as it does not exist in the unit template data as a separate item. Thus - the units cannot be loaded with smoke only in the OOB.
Therefore, the UK CS tanks have had HE ammo (which existed - as already stated in your quotations - therefore could be loaded in the vehicle ), issued to them since I think, the SP1 days. That makes the units (marginally) useful in the game - otherwise they would have the MGs only, and maybe 6-8 randomly isued smoke shells on unit creation depending on what unit class the element was based on.
August 4th, 2006, 06:09 AM
I guess if your fielding tanks with poor quality paper thin armour specifically designed to maximise shot traps a few CS tanks with smoke is a virtual necessity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But all jokes aside it is a pity the correct ammo loadout is hard to model. For those that dont like smoke it shows how inmportant it really is. A tiny armoured force equipped with these early cruisers and there CS smoke belching support managed to sweep the Italians clean out or north africa.
Got to say the matila I is certainly one of my favourites, what a spectacular looking piece of machinery with all that exposed running gear and tracks. Looks funny but I guess still pretty unpleasent when it trundles up to your trench dealing death. Not to mention the shock value of being unable to dent the bl##dy thing.
Best Regards Chuck
August 4th, 2006, 06:27 AM
Actually it seems a shame to give this vehicle the a-historic HE loadout, I say this because these early cruiser squadrons are equipped with the non-HE firing 2 pdr guns. So actually these squadrons have a large tactical hole in them, being that they can't engage AT guns outside of MG range. So giving the CS tanks HE instead of the correct smoke very neatly and very a-historically plugs this hole, making these units a balanced formation when in fact they wernt.
I wonder, could these tanks be given there own class so that they can have their correct ammo loadout of smoke?
Maybe Im not the only one in the forum that enjoys the challenge of playing an unbalanced formation?
Best Regards Chuck.
August 4th, 2006, 11:26 AM
The CS tank class already allows for additional "smoke" shots, but I don't think there's any way without a massive modification to the engine to get smoke into the basic ammo loadout.
August 4th, 2006, 05:18 PM
There isn't and we're not going to.
August 5th, 2006, 05:28 AM
Ok subject closed, But I would have thought that if you created a new class for these 3 vehicles you could then give them 40 or so "generated" smoke rounds using the same method that currently gives just a few. Then you could remove all but a few HE in the unit template.
By the way looking at my references in my origional post it seems the A13 CS should have its MGs removed.
Best regards Chuck.
August 5th, 2006, 08:52 AM
There is a limit to the number of classes we can put into the game and that limit has been reached.
August 5th, 2006, 11:40 AM
also - if we made a special UK CS tank class, someone would
- Use that in another OOB for other things it was not intended for
- Write in complaining that the UK CS tanks have no ammo for thier howitzers!! in mobhack (not realising that the smoke comes from the initialisation code for the unit class)..
What we have now is a useful game-engine compromise for a minority unit (2 per cruiser squadron in the early war only), and also allows for the later 95mm support tanks as well utilising the same unit classes.
August 14th, 2006, 07:51 AM
I think there may be a solution to this problem, could the later 95mm CS "cruiser" tanks (cromwell and comet) be moved into class '129-Close Support Tank'? Maybe this would then leave just the 2 early war cruiser tanks in '104-CS cruiser tank'. This class could be altered to allow these vehicles (and so their formations) to be modeled correctly. ie HE largly replaced by smoke and hence no ability to attack AT guns beyond MG range. The 95mm churchills already have their own class, '106-CS infantry tank'.
By the way, Is there any easy way I can tell what units are in each class? Also I would be very interested to know what the various class's parameters/charateristics are. Would this be possible?
Best Regards Chuck.
August 14th, 2006, 10:50 AM
The following units use class 104 IN THE UK OB ALONE:
009 - Crusader I-CS - Available 05/041 to 03/042
011 - Crusader II-CS - Available 01/042 to 04/043
015 - Cromwell VI - Available 01/043 to 12/044
134 - A9 CS - Available 01/035 to 11/041
136 - A13 CS - Available 04/038 to 11/041
142 - Crusader III - Available 05/042 to 05/043
165 - Cromwell VIII - Available 03/044 to 12/046
200 - M3 SP 75mm - Available 01/043 to 12/044 *has X3 Radio Code*
296 - Honey - Available 11/041 to 06/042 *has X3 Radio Code*
The following units in the french OB use class 104:
211 - Crusader ICS - Available 05/041 to 03/042
213 - Crusader IICS - Available 01/042 to 04/043
359 - H-39 - Available 08/040 to 04/041
561 - Grant I - Available 10/042 to 04/043
The following units in the soviet OB use class 104:
003 - BT-7a - Available 06/037 to 10/041
095 - BT-5a - Available 01/035 to 09/041
115 - BT-2a - Available 10/031 to 07/041
In the Anzac OB the following use class 104:
013 - Crusader II-CS - Available 07/042 to 10/042
026 - Sherman IB - Available 01/045 to 12/046
In the Czechoslovakian OB its:
323 - Cromwell Mk.VI - Available 06/045 to 02/048
Easy way to find them is via Mobhack, goto 'database check utilities', select 'units checks', select or type in the desired unit class and press 'find UC'.
August 14th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Which is precisely why we won't be altering an existing class to only load smoke shells.( Narwan knows this.... this info is for everyone else who doesn't ) Even if "104-CS cruiser tank" was only used by a couple if units in one OOB that doesn't mean it's not used by a dozen other OOB's.
As Narwan said, finding out what units use the various unit classes can be done using Mobhack. Load an OOB then click on "FILE" then click on "database check utilities". You can find out what units and what formations use each unit class for that OOB. To find them in another OOB you need to load that OOB first. The Unit classes themselves are described in the Game Guide.
One last point. Save yourself the trouble of going through all the OOBs looking for an unused class that we can code to only load smoke shells. Even if you do find one, we're not planning on creating a smoke shell only UC.
August 14th, 2006, 06:19 PM
Thanks for that, deceptively named class isnt it.
August 14th, 2006, 06:21 PM
Fair enough, thanks for the reply.
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