Future European Combat Systems (Germany + France)

[MarkSheppard]

Several new european systems are in the working phases and will be coming online in probably the next five to six years

First up, Germany's Puma IFV, which is slated to IOC in 2010~

http://www.psm-spz.com/en/images/img_puma.jpg

Link to Official Puma IFV site (http://www.psm-spz.com/en/)

Armament is a Mauser 30mm MK 30-2 cannon (also being used in the Spanish Pizarro and Austrian Ulan IFVs); with a coaxial 5.56mm MG in a remotely operated and controlled turret. The gunner and commander sit inside the main hull.

It carries six infantry dismounts, plus commander, gunner, and driver as crew.

What makes the vehicle unique as far as implementation in MBT is concerned is it's dual weight and protection levels.

First up is the base armor level that the Bundeswehr selected:

Protection Level A (Airportable)
31.45 tons
A400M Transportable
All around 14.5mm Protection
Front and Flank protection against 30mm Cannon rounds
Front protects against HEAT rounds

Protection Level C (Combat)
40.7 tons
I've yet been able to find any specifications, but the weight increase of 9.25 tons and the image of the addon armor kits:

Link to really big picture showing the two protection levels and how the additional armor is added (http://www.psm-spz.com/downloads/puma_9_gr.jpg)

Should be enough to SWAG the additional armor protection.

------

Next up are our French friends with their VBCI IFV

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/vbci/images/VBCI_1.jpg

It's been selected to replace the AMX-10P, and will enter service in two versions in 2008~, an IFV version (VCI), and a command post version (VPC)

VBCI
A400M transportable
26 tons
Gunner + Driver for crew
8 Dismounts + Commander
25mm Autocannon + 7.62 coaxial in turret.

Armor protection is against "155mm shrapnel and small/Medium calibre shells"

[RecruitMonty]

Hmmm... nice looking Puma. A few more developments like this and we might have ourselves a competitive German army. Now all they need to do is upgrade their M113s and/or find a decent tracked replacement for the lighter units. Things like the Puma cost money so not every German mechanised unit will be able to afford this package, especially when the government likes cutting costs. A wheeled equivolent would only be good fo recon in my opinion.

[Alpha]

Clearly the german vehicle is better, but probably also more expensive.

[PlasmaKrab]

Clearly both aren't designed for the same purpose, are they? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Looks like the VBCI/Vextra is rather in the same ballpark as the MRAV/GTK Boxer. Why France didn't run along with the MRAV program from the beginning, I cannot say.
I know the requirements were different (e.g. a heavier, more combat-worthy vehicle to replace light IFVs, rather than a rear-echelon battle taxi to replace the M-113, Fuchs, FV-432, Saxon and YP-408 as light APCs), but the end results seem so similar...

[loktarr]

Puma
It carries <font color="green">six infantry dismounts</font>
Protection Level A (Airportable)
<font color="red">31.45 tons</font>
Protection Level C (Combat)
<font color="red">40.7 tons</font>

VBCI
<font color="red">26 tons</font>
<font color="green">8 Dismounts + Commander</font>

Clearly not the same objective...
Looks like germans don't want to loose their soldiers due to RPG fire... But only 6 men it's not much... I just wonder how many Germany will buy of this.
It's interresting because before the Puma, Germany and France had light vehicles (Fox, VAB) and no heavy like US Bradley or UK's Warrior

[PlasmaKrab]

It's interresting because before the Puma, Germany and France had light vehicles (Fox, VAB) and no heavy like US Bradley or UK's Warrior

Well, the Germans did, and were among the first western countries doing so. A little something called Marder SPz, procured in more than 2000 units by the Bundeswehr from 1971 onwards... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/marder1a3.htm
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_spz_marder_1a1-a.htm

It was actually a replacement for the primitive IFV HS-30 (already full-tracked with 20mm autocannon).
The French also had the lighter AMX-10P, which was never anything like a Bradley or a Warrior.

That's why the Puma is heavier (it is a real heavy IFV like the Marder or Bradley), while the VBCI is a lighter "wheeled IFV" designed for manoeuver warfare besides the Leclerc.

[loktarr]

Well, the Germans did, and were among the first western countries doing so. A little something called Marder SPz, procured in more than 2000 units by the Bundeswehr from 1971 onwards...



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif I was a bit too rapid... You are perfectly right. I promise I will be carefull next time.

[Alpha]

PlasmaKrab said:
Clearly both aren't designed for the same purpose, are they? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Yup, clearly. Just wanted to be bit "patriotic" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Well wasn´t the first real IFV the BMP1 ?

I always thought, that the Marder was a bit to heavy and high (bigger target) compared to BMP. Also the 20mm cannon isn´t as good as 30mm. While i admit that for a timespan the MArder was a good IFV with 20mm, Mg and Milan rockets. Probably a battlegroup mixed with Leopards were quite powerful.

[PlasmaKrab]

Well, the Marder-II would have been an impressive thing, but it was certainly too expensive and not deployable enough for post-cold-war contingencies. I've never seen it mounted with missiles tubes, but I guess it would have got a couple of TRIGAT-MRs fireable from under armour... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Alpha]

PlasmaKrab said:
Well, the Marder-II would have been an impressive thing, but it was certainly too expensive and not deployable enough for post-cold-war contingencies. I've never seen it mounted with missiles tubes, but I guess it would have got a couple of TRIGAT-MRs fireable from under armour... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif



Yup, big thing. I saw the prototype in the Munster Tank Museum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[RecruitMonty]

Has anyone got any information on it, Weapon loadout, unit specs, armour etc. Has anyone got any shps of it either? I just got the urge to mod it into the game.

[PlasmaKrab]

Modding the Marder-II, you mean? You're well aware that what is left of the program is a field trials testbed rusting away in a tank museum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If so, alright, I've included it in my mod, so I guess I could send you an obf including it (worth noting that all of the data is guesswork or extrapolations, so not necessarily worth the bother). I've icons for it too (see "Proposed/Failed Program Icon Submittal Thread"), and you can find a decent lbm already in the game (number 44068).
But if you can find real data for it, feel free to create one yourself!

[RecruitMonty]

I would like it very much if you sent it to me. Will you post it here, or do you need my e-mail address?

Also why the hell can you just fit six troops in the back of that damn thing (PUMA) that is just stupid. Why the hell is the Bundeswehr run/equipped by idiots? If anyone ever changed their mind about how many troops they wanted in a highly mobile Panzergrenadier Unit they would have to upgrade the existing vehicles or build new vehicles. What a waste of money!

[RecruitMonty]

Hey, PlasmaKrab, Where are you? Could you post the MarderII up please.

Scrap that. You already did. Thanks.