Any plans for an "official" hosting server?

[PhilD]

With Dom2, there was (at least one) user-made hosting server.

Are there plans for Shrapnel to provide some kind of "official" hosting of games? (this could be either TCP or email, in my mind)

The only other Shrapnel game I own (Land of Legends) has a (unique) server for online play. Having something similar for Dom3 would be nice, I think.

[Tim Brooks]

We are taking a look at this. I will get back with you here...

[okiN]

Glad to hear it's being considered. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Gandalf Parker]

In My Experience:

The hosting part isnt hard but there is a ton of file managment. Alot of script writing. Try to find someone who thinks things like that are fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Windows servers running only tcpip games would not be able to run very many. I suppose you could start a new game every month and hope that the fact it will run more than a month will keep it from being the same people joining every game.

Interfacing to web pages for game stats I think is an important feature that is rare and shouldnt be overlooked. Interfacing a web page for upload/download of turns is a security concern but there are plenty of tested scripts for that.

Setting it up for PbEM games would be more efficient altho abit more to iron out.

Linux would me more efficient. You could run more tcpip games on less server.

Linux running in text mode would be the most efficient. More games could be run and its much eiaser to interface to webpages. But its not easy to dive into linux text-mode. A background in other text modes, even DOS, is a big help.

I will happily provide all my scripts. Or even provide an account to someone you choose and let them poke around.
Here is a game-start page I messed with abit (it doesnt start a game).
http://www.dom3minions.com/lab/MakeGame.htm
But I decided that my server would not support everyone starting a game whenever they were in the mood.

Gandalf Parker

[Daynarr]

Gandalf Parker said:
The hosting part isnt hard but there is a ton of file managment. Alot of script writing. Try to find someone who thinks things like that are fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif




That would be you.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Bluebird]

I do have my own 24/7 linux server on the net, which I currently using for hosting. Is there really a problem getting somebody host games? I could easily host 3-4 more games if it had been requested.

Though I have to admit that the mosehansen.dk interface was a nice thing. Anybody knows if it is possible to grab the source code of that beast?

[Tyrant]

A pro hosting server would be a GREAT thing for the community. One need only consider the massive drop off in DomII games that happened when Mosehansen shut down to see
how important it would be for the community.

[Cainehill]

Esben had said he'd share the web-code he wrote for the mosehansen.dk dominions server.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Hey people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Anyone remember old Esben? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

How are you doing, all of you?

[JaydedOne]

*chuckle* Absolutely do remember. Good to see you again! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PhilD]

Sure we do! Coming back for more, or are you just here to say hello?

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Not really sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It's a mite expensive, and I'm not sure if I will play it enough to justify it. But I have some time to think about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I read around a bit... seems you have had some problems with the server. Really, you should just have emailed me (and again, if I didn't reply, I sometimes miss the important messages in all the spam/mailinglists).

Oh, and my offer of the source code is of course still valid. From what I've read, the code should run more or less unmodified http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif I suppose the thing still need all those libs? :/

Hehe, I had forgotten my own sig. I love that quote http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

And hi everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Good to see you all again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ygorl]

Hey, welcome back!
I'd love to see the source code for your (very nice) web page. I'd be happy to have a clone of it up and running for people to play on...

Thanks!

[Endoperez]

I'm sorry to say that I don't remember Esben, but Mose Hansen is a legend from a more heroic era, of one of the greatest victories for the MP community. Welcome back! Maybe I'll learn your full name this time around.

[Gandalf Parker]

*whew* big sigh of relief. Glad to see you back EMH.
You want a login? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Ok, I have finally managed to pack up the pages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Installation instructions, very quickly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif)

1. Setup apache+modperl+ssl
2. unpack http://www.mosehansen.dk/dom-hosting.tar.bz2 in cgi-bin, or a subdirectory thereof
3. copy dom.css to some suitable place, like htdocs (must be accessible, e.g. as /dom.css
4. Setup db:
4a. mysql -u root -p
4b. create database dom3
4c. grant ALL on dom3.* TO dom3@localhost IDENTIFIED BY PASSWORD "498fDj398d";
4d. quit
5d. mysql -u dom3 -p dom3 < dom.sql
5. copy dom2host.conf.template to dom2host.conf and adjust usernames, password, roots and whatever you think appropriate
6. fire up pages. Create yourself as a user.
7. Make yourself root:
7a. mysql -u dom3 -o dom3
7b. update player set group_name = 'root' where player_name = 'myname';
7c. quit
8. Find out how to install the key. I think it goes into "(null)"/dominions3/key", but it's a bit hazy now.

It is also useful to know that the games leaves a game_name.log file with everything the game outputs and more. You might want to delete these occasionally, too, though I never bothered to.

From there, everything should be peachy. When something goes wrong, feel free to ask me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Gandalf: Login? To where?

[Gandalf Parker]

Esben Mose Hansen said:
Gandalf: Login? To where?



To my servers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
In case it would be helpful to your working on some project.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

oh, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have my own server for now, though, and as long as I don't actually own a copy of dom3...

It might be good to have more servers if the popularity goes ballistic like it did in dom2. Or maybe I should do an file-based server this time around. Maybe a job for Ruby... ON RAILS!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Esben Mose Hansen said:
oh, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have my own server for now, though, and as long as I don't actually own a copy of dom3...




I will gladly give you a copy of Dom3 for all you have done in the past and hope that you find the time and energy to do the same in the future. You have been most appreciated. We as well as the fans owe you great!

PM me or send a mail to kristoffer(at)illwinter.com if you want a copy.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Kristoffer O said:
I will gladly give you a copy of Dom3 for all you have done in the past and hope that you find the time and energy to do the same in the future. You have been most appreciated. We as well as the fans owe you great!

PM me or send a mail to kristoffer(at)illwinter.com if you want a copy.


Wow. That was totally unexpected. I would be grateful and very honered to accept! I have emailed you my address. Thank you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

YAY MORE SERVERS!

I had a game startup page started but I was afraid of what user-created games could do to my servers. Games could run for months. Even if 1 game a week was started it could overload me if they were tcpip games that were up and waiting for logins 24/7

If run as PbEM games (maybe with a web page upload) then it might be better since the game could be done as a host-then-quit allowing me to spread out the load. But even then, users could create a lot of games. Not to mention the admin headaches of games created but never started, how to decide when to cleanup a game, etc.

Gandalf Parker

[Arralen]

Gandalf, I may have asked you before, but can't remember that I ever got an answer.. therefor:

Do you know Stars! Autohost (http://starsautohost.org/).

It does that what you plan for Dom3 for the old Stars! game for years already. Might be possible to get the scripts and 'convert' them for the use with Dom3/Dom2 ...

[Gandalf Parker]

I know of Stars! which is a favorite game of mine. I havent looked at the hosting scripts for it.

By the way, the Stars! usenet forum is rumbling with noise about an approved clone project. Im trying to stear them toward Shrapnel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DominionsFan]

Kristoffer O said:

Esben Mose Hansen said:
oh, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have my own server for now, though, and as long as I don't actually own a copy of dom3...




I will gladly give you a copy of Dom3 for all you have done in the past and hope that you find the time and energy to do the same in the future. You have been most appreciated. We as well as the fans owe you great!

PM me or send a mail to kristoffer(at)illwinter.com if you want a copy.



Kris you are a real gentleman. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[ceremony]

DominionsFan said:

Kristoffer O said:

Esben Mose Hansen said:
oh, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have my own server for now, though, and as long as I don't actually own a copy of dom3...




I will gladly give you a copy of Dom3 for all you have done in the past and hope that you find the time and energy to do the same in the future. You have been most appreciated. We as well as the fans owe you great!

PM me or send a mail to kristoffer(at)illwinter.com if you want a copy.



Kris you are a real gentleman. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif


Indeed. Very classy.

[Shmonk]

Talk about great "Dominions community" customer service. I think that is very cool, Kris O. My first few MP games were on the Mose Hansen server, and it was very nice to see that available.

I can't wait for Dom 3, maybe several servers will be available for starting MP games. I can see Oct/Nov being very busy months for me - work, Dom3, little sleep, work, Dom3, little sleep, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tim Brooks]

Okay. We have questions for those who are 'in the know'...

1. How many games can be hosted by a dedicated server at one time?

2. How much bandwidth does this take?

3. If we supplied the server, could we get the code (some already exists, correct?)?

4. Would there be any volunteers to administer the server?

Thanks.

[JaydedOne]

Tim,

The mere fact that you're asking rocks.

I now sit back to watch Gandalf and Esben offer more useful comments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Tim Brooks said:
Okay. We have questions for those who are 'in the know'...

1. How many games can be hosted by a dedicated server at one time?

Im not good at exact numbers but here are my impressions so far. Going with a simple linux server (1 unit, max memory, max standard desktop CPU, min hard drive, min graphics, min sound) that is dedicated to this purpose by itself...

I would say that it can host 5-8 mega games in Xwindows and tcpip mode. (easier to manage but uses up the most system resources)

That becomes 10-15 mega games if its run in text mode

Easily 20-30 if they are not run tcpip (direct connect) but are instead as pbem

Also small blitz games would raise the number

Those sound like alot of games but consider how long they can last. If a game lasts for months, and you can run 10 large games, then you might be looking at only starting one game a month to make sure that things run smooth.

In MY opinion (and this will probably tick some people off) the biggest gain that Shrapnel could provide us is to not worry about pbem and blitz games. Those can be done by the players. Its the high end stuff. Large maps, many players, needing an impartial host we trust. Those need abit more machine than someones crowded desktop to run. If Shrapnel could run one big official game a month it would go far toward stablizing this community. Maybe one game for each era, so that would be starting 3 games each time.

2. How much bandwidth does this take?

Very little bandwidth. The game is very efficient that way. The big bandwidth is if a game is started with a randomly generated map then it sends the map to the players. But thats only on the initial connection.

The problem area is in CPU. Altho Ive watched that be incredibly improved during beta testing. But getting late into a large game can make the hosting the turns into something that the machine will "feel" the load. Games that are run as 24-hour turns and then space the hosting times so they dont overlap will take care of that.

3. If we supplied the server, could we get the code (some already exists, correct?)?

Esben has the decent code. I dont think its for the types of games I described. Of course I will provide my scripts which can be used to generate large occassional games.

4. Would there be any volunteers to administer the server?

No Im too flakey for that. Id be glad to help out setting things up or working on problems that come up. But Im better at sporadic help than I am at being regular and dependable.

Gandalf Parker

[DominionsFan]

Hm my comp could easily host a Doms 3. server. Dual Xeon processors, 2 GB RAM, 6 mbit DSL line [not capped so its 24 Mbit basically].
The problem is that its not just me whos using the computer, but my girlfriend also. [She is living with me.]
Hm...maybe I will buy her a laptop. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Daynarr]

Many games will be much smaller then mega games. Actually Esben Mose Hansen had quite outdated PC to act as server for Dom2 and it hosted a good number of games at the same time. Todays PC's could easily handle up to 50 normal games (or even more) as they require only little resources. Memory is probably most important part for PC as CPU is used only for hosting.

Of course, all games should be run in text mode on the server as normal window eats a lot of resources.

[Graeme Dice]

Tim Brooks said:
Okay. We have questions for those who are 'in the know'...

1. How many games can be hosted by a dedicated server at one time?



I've hosted three games at once in graphical mode on my old 800 MHz PIII with 256 MB of RAM running windows 98 while still using it to play other games. Hosting only takes significant computer resources during turn processing in my experience.


2. How much bandwidth does this take?



I believe that it's only as much as is needed to transfer turn files.

It would be great if Shrapnel ran some kind of official server.

[Gandalf Parker]

I wonder if Dominions would have any problem hosting on a Windows NT server. It could still use scripts to start the games. And it might make management and cleanup easier.

[PhilD]

Basically, if we're talking PBEM games and not TCP, the server should not need any more resources to run X games than one - dom3 itself will not be running full time, just while hosting, and even if there are many games running in parallel the server can manage them and only run one instance of dom3 at a time (requires a bit more careful programming, not that terrible).

TCP games are a totally different matter, and the answer will depend a lot on how efficient memory management is in dom3. Will several instances share memory? this kind of question. But I'm not sure how useful a TCP-games server would be.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

I'm having fun writing a file-based (sort of email, but without the email bother) version of my server. It's progressing steadily, going faster as I get more comfortable with ruby and rails.

As for the number of games you can host, expect 256Mb per 5-8 games. RAM is about the only thing that matters. I could run 20 on the my 256Mb server, but that was with 700 Mb of swap.

For my new server version, I expect the number to be basically unlimited.

[DominionsFan]

Esben Mose Hansen said:
I'm having fun writing a file-based (sort of email, but without the email bother) version of my server. It's progressing steadily, going faster as I get more comfortable with ruby and rails.

As for the number of games you can host, expect 256Mb per 5-8 games. RAM is about the only thing that matters. I could run 20 on the my 256Mb server, but that was with 700 Mb of swap.

For my new server version, I expect the number to be basically unlimited.



wow, it seems that doms just dont need too many resources to run. A decent server could be hosted from a laptop with 1 GB of RAM easily. Hm actually I might make available my laptop as a server, since I don't use it too much anymore, and it is a good one with 1 GB RAM. If it will be needed I will make it available for sure.

[Arralen]

DominionsFan said:
Hm actually I might make available my laptop as a server, since I don't use it too much anymore, and it is a good one with 1 GB RAM. If it will be needed I will make it available for sure.



@Dominionsfan
That's a very nice and generous offer, but don't do that. Notebooks are not made to run 24/7, even less so than Desktop PC.

@everyone
But even a 5-year-old low-level server (P3, 0,5-1GB RAM, 10-20GB HDD space) should be able to run 25 TCP/IP games and a nearly unlimited number of email games, if the resolution of random maps is heavily restricted. Otherwise the random maps alone would eat up the disk space fast. Maybe there should be an option to save the map for later use?

And I know I'm repeating myself over and over, but if you're looking into email-hosting I would strongly suggest you check out the Stars! Autohost Site (http://starsautohost.org/). Their autohoster is running for about 10 years now I guess, so their script can be considered pretty matured. And some years ago, when the game was more popular, they had several hundred games running simultaniously, not only the meagre 52 they have now.

[Tim Brooks]

Okay. That has answered some of my questions. Sounds doable then. The big thing is volunteers to administer it. We do not have the resources for that.

[Arralen]

Depends what you plan to use for the server.
My experience with Linux is limited to keeping a Suse6 server running for 3.5 years, using Webmin mostly and doing nothing even remotedly fancy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
With WinNT and 2000 things look much better, but I must admit I havn't seen any 2003 server up to now ...

I would suggest to form a team from people all over the world anyhow, to have better chances that at least someone is available at any time. Wouldn't be that good if the "official" server is down for several hours just because a single instance of Dom is blocking everything for some reason.

[Graeme Dice]

PhilD said:
Basically, if we're talking PBEM games and not TCP, the server should not need any more resources to run X games than one - dom3 itself will not be running full time, just while hosting, and even if there are many games running in parallel the server can manage them and only run one instance of dom3 at a time (requires a bit more careful programming, not that terrible).



I had a couple of problems with temporary file collisions destroying games when I was running three Dom II servers at once. If multiple games were processing the turn at the same time, it was possible to end up with the units from one game being transposed into another. Atlantis ended up with their capital above water I believe.

[Will]

It wouldn't be so terrible to have turns processed serially to avoid the file collision problem. The PBW server for SEIV processes games like this, and a quick count shows 90+ games running currently. I'm not sure how DomII and DomIII multiplayer games would work, but as long as it isn't running as a pseudo-TCP/IP game (everyone online and playing at the same time, only sending turns via email instead of TCP/IP) all the time, serial processing shouldn't be a problem. Just set an upper limit on processing time, and require an admin to authorize over-runs for games where it takes longer than that.

If DomIII could be tweaked to prevent temp file collisions (directory for each savegame perhaps, store temp files there?), then you could have a very large number of games running on a modest box, the only thing to work out is the queuing to throttle simultaneous processing of turns, so each instance isn't starved out of processor and memory resources.

That's how I see it anyway. I could be missing something obvious about Dominions multiplayer, having only played the demo for Dom2. I soon plan to be educated with a full copy of Dom3 though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arralen]

Will said:
If DomIII could be tweaked to prevent temp file collisions (directory for each savegame perhaps, store temp files there?), then you could have a very large number of games running on a modest box, the only thing to work out is the queuing to throttle simultaneous processing of turns, so each instance isn't starved out of processor and memory resources.


On windows Dom uses %tmp%\domWXYZ\ where WXYZ is a random number. Therefore it already uses temp directories with random folder names which are supposed to be unique - but somehow it doesn't work out that way sometimes for unknown reason.

Don't know where dom puts its files under linux -better ask Gandalf about that- but I guess it will be very similar.

[Graeme Dice]

Will said:
If DomIII could be tweaked to prevent temp file collisions (directory for each savegame perhaps, store temp files there?), then you could have a very large number of games running on a modest box, the only thing to work out is the queuing to throttle simultaneous processing of turns, so each instance isn't starved out of processor and memory resources.



Temporary file collisions were just a bug in Dom2 that happened because the server didn't always pick a different temporary directory than other instances of the server. So I don't really expect it to be a problem in Dom3.

[Cainehill]

Tim Brooks said:
Okay. That has answered some of my questions. Sounds doable then. The big thing is volunteers to administer it. We do not have the resources for that.



I could help admin it, as long as you're hosting under linux or windoze. Working dog shifts now (3 - midnight here), but once it's setup I can check status / fix things at least twice a day. (Recommend Linux - less resource intensive, easier to create scripts to automate things.)

[Cainehill]

Tim Brooks said:
Okay. That has answered some of my questions. Sounds doable then. The big thing is volunteers to administer it. We do not have the resources for that.



I could help admin it, as long as you're hosting under linux or windoze. Working dog shifts now (3 - midnight here), but once it's setup I can check status / fix things at least twice a day. (Recommend Linux - less resource intensive, easier to create scripts to automate things.)

[Tyrant]

Woot! Cainehill, once again, you da man!

[Reverend Zombie]

Hmmm. We had:



Tim Brooks said:
Okay. That has answered some of my questions. Sounds doable then. The big thing is volunteers to administer it. We do not have the resources for that.



And then this:


Cainehill said:
I could help admin it, as long as you're hosting under linux or windoze. Working dog shifts now (3 - midnight here), but once it's setup I can check status / fix things at least twice a day. (Recommend Linux - less resource intensive, easier to create scripts to automate things.)



Too bad this didn't pan out.

[Gandalf Parker]

That was less than 6 months ago. Since there is no "plug-n-play run-a-Dom3-host" module then it might be possible that someone is working on one (though probably not as a full time project). There would at least be alot of testing and security checking on the 3 versions of a hosting setup that have been offered.