Farstrike a useless spell?

[BigJMoney]

I'm trying to figure out any use at all for the farstrike spell, and I can't come up with one. It is only precision 5, so the change of you targeting a single target with it is too low. It seems to me to be the equivalent of turning your caster into an archer with an bow that does fairly high damage. I initially looked at it, hoping it might be an anti mage spell, but I don't think it would work for that.

BTW are there any good anti mage spells?

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[Frostmourne27]

BTW are there any good anti mage spells?



Spells with high (battlefield is good) AOE are excellent against most mages, since most mages have less than 15 health or so. Wither bones is particularily nasty. Against mindless summons, spells like soul slay will often work well. Nether Darts might work, if you can fire them at the mages (a big if) since they feeblemind and do decent damage. Heat from Hell and Grip of winter do fatigue and lethal damage, though slowly, so if you're playing Caelum, Jotun or Abysia, you could try that... you could try master enslave / undead mastery / arcane domination in late game, against a mage army, capturing even one or two mages would be worth it. Howl and Mists of deception, since they bring units on from behind the enemy might be worth a shot. Touch of madness would be awesome, except that I think mages will only cast it on friendlies. Soul Drain will work, but it's kinda overkill. Wrathfull skies, since it's battlefield AOE, and does enough damage to kill, as does fire storm. Call Horror maybe? and just hope it goes in the right direction... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Considering you started this thread by asking about farstrike, though, I'm guessing you were looking for low level spells, of which few seem particularly mage killing, though a couple of these might be worth a shot.
NB: I made this list by going through the spell list, so I haven't tried them all.

[KissBlade]

Howl and Swarm are both relatively good anti mage spells early game since they tend to fly/attack rearmost most of the time. Rain of Stones (I think that's what it's called, it requires 3 earth and 1 air is also not shabby)

[Cainehill]

As I recall, farstrike is also a pretty sweet spell at times for a mage with high strength - massive damage at range.

[Endoperez]

With a high-srength caster, I quess Farstrike could punch through even heaviest armor. With cheap items like Boots of Giant Strength or Halberd of Might, the damage could become pretty high.

EDIT: I tested it, and while the damage can be good, the low precision really hurts. If there were giants with access to Farstrike, it would occassionally have spesific uses even in the very late game, but as it is, it's just a low-level spell. Against heavily-armored enemiest, it's better than Stone Shards.

[Nerfix]

I've used it on some occasions. I can see using it with the Marverni in future at early game. Eagle Eyes + Farstrike...

[quantum_mechani]

Farstrike has only one, very specific, use I've found- immobile pretenders with a literal punch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[BigJMoney]

Frostmourne27 said:
Heat from Hell and Grip of winter do fatigue and lethal damage, though slowly...




I tried using Heat from Hell with my wussy Moloch SC (nother thread) and I was unclear what it was doing for me. Does it work on a cumulative scale; ie take a long time to ramp up its effect?


Endoperez said:
I tested it, and while the damage can be good, the low precision really hurts.




This is exactly what I was referring to. Making it a precision 100 spell would probably be the way to make it useful. That would put it in the same line as spells like mind burn, petrify, soul slay, incinerate etc. but at a lower level. And the cool thing is that it could still be useful later in the game when magic items become available to increase the damage it can do.

On the same topic, touch spells are fairly useless because you can't deliberately make use of them. Do you think it's possible that a patch for Dom3 could be considered giving touch spells a much higher chance of success in melee? By chance of success, I'm referring to the effect that causes mages to not be able to cast spells while someone is meleeing them.

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[BigJMoney]

Actually, let me ask this, though I assume the answer is "no". Is there any way to get a mage to go on the offensive but still use spells. If I tell them to attack, they only seem to use melee weapons.

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[KissBlade]

No, making a mage attack is a really really bad idea ... Unless you're talking about the typical "self buff, attack rear" chassis. They'll use only what they're equipped with.

[Nerfix]

Well, it makes hard to use Immolate which could be situationaly a very useful spell. As for Farstrike, it's a low level spell, it shouldn't be that good. From my experiences it strikes often enough and can kill a Knight. It's the odd path requirements.

Perhaps making it 0+ damage and giving it 100 precision could work. I do not know. That would beed some testing.

[RonD]

If your mage can fly, then use the "Attack 1 turn" command. Useful for Immolate, or Shockwave, for example.

[Nerfix]

RonD said:
If your mage can fly, then use the "Attack 1 turn" command. Useful for Immolate, or Shockwave, for example.

Except that it's all too likely the mage will just melee.

[Endoperez]

Nerfix said:

RonD said:
If your mage can fly, then use the "Attack 1 turn" command. Useful for Immolate, or Shockwave, for example.

Except that it's all too likely the mage will just melee.



"IMPORTANT: A magic user in close combat has only 50% chance of being able to cast spells. Otherwise, he will fight."

Dominions II manual, page 16, under 6.4

[Nerfix]

Yes, and often it will be three rounds of fighting and then the mage will just cast something random.

[Arralen]

Not random!!!

Miscalculated, maybe, but surely not random !!

Actually, I have seen mages use low-range or "touch"-spells quite often when faced with attacking troops - or assassines.
Had a quite funny assassination in Dom2: Beeing stabbed with a poison dagger, my weaponless Pan retaliated in kind and used poison touch. Then both missed each other for 3 combat turns - until the assassin dropped dead from the poison, while the Pan escaped unharmed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[BigJMoney]

Endoperez said:

"IMPORTANT: A magic user in close combat has only 50% chance of being able to cast spells. Otherwise, he will fight."

Dominions II manual, page 16, under 6.4



Yeah, that's it right there! I think touch spell (and a couple close range spells) usefulness would go up a great deal if they would add a new flag to them called "melee spell". Melee spells would ignore that 50% chance, and also be castable by a mage who is set to "attack" orders.

Thanks for quoting that.

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[Frostmourne27]

BigJMoney said:

Yeah, that's it right there! I think touch spell (and a couple close range spells) usefulness would go up a great deal if they would add a new flag to them called "melee spell". Melee spells would ignore that 50% chance, and also be castable by a mage who is set to "attack" orders.

Thanks for quoting that.

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Might be a problem with leeching touch, at least under CB (does it have a slave cost noramlly?) but otherwise that would be fine. Dusk elders would become totally insane - 40+ AN damage... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[BigJMoney]

Does that spell give extra HPs or something?

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[Manuk]

Actually, I have seen mages use low-range or "touch"-spells quite often when faced with attacking troops - or assassines.
Had a quite funny assassination in Dom2: Beeing stabbed with a poison dagger, my weaponless Pan retaliated in kind and used poison touch. Then both missed each other for 3 combat turns - until the assassin dropped dead from the poison, while the Pan escaped

yeah, I like when atlas (the titan) uses low range spells against masses.

(odd, the quote doesn't work.)

[Agrajag]

Manuk said:
(odd, the quote doesn't work.)


That's because you are supposed to use quote instead of q

[Wick]

I don't think the cast chance is the problem. Hand of Death every other turn is plenty, it's the difficulty of getting and, especially, keeping the mage close enough to use it.

[Arralen]

Wick said:
.. it's the difficulty of getting and, especially, keeping the mage close enough to use it.


"Keeping close enough" like "keeping alive" most times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
With lower-than-average hitpoints and defense, and only medium armor at best this can turn out quite problematic with most mages.

Vans e.g. on the other hand are quite good at frying attackers (and the remnant of their bodyguards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ) with Shock Wave, and are quite able to survive some rounds of melee combat unless very unlucky ..



remnant o.c. .. 'wash tie-ping shilly shings 'gain

[Nerfix]

Shock Wave is a riot. It and Immolate are high in my list of favorite spells. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Frostmourne27]

Flame eruption on a non fire imune mage with a non fire imune bodyguard... even if you lose, losing can be fun. Last stands against ermor for example (Oh look, my SC got five thousand kills, and I still lost http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif )
OT: I've never tried, but would an anathemant dragon with flying shoes set to cast divine bless (if bless is good) + fire shield, attack rear, flame eruption flame eruption, cast spells work? It seems like you would do quite well, since rear. would be mages/archers, and anathemants are hard to kill, and flame eruption owns. Body guards would be a problem, but if you could incinerate them (figuratively, not the spell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)...

[Wick]

Like I implied, you can't order "attack rear" and then cast spells. You can only use "attack once" and once that squad routs the mage will just send Phantasmal Warriors against the archers or something.

Dear Mighty Warrior Mage, we'd like to see some AGGRESSION here.

[PvK]

I liked Farstrike from my Shedu early in the game.

[silhouette]

PvK said:
I liked Farstrike from my Shedu early in the game.

This is the only commander I have ever used it with. The Shedu has the right magic, and also combines very high strength and lack of hands, which makes it hard to turn that strength to killing purposes otherwise. And using spells keeps him out of trample range.

Sill

[Nerfix]

Well, E/S commanders aren't that common in Dominions 2 anyway.

[BigJMoney]

Wick said:
I don't think the cast chance is the problem. Hand of Death every other turn is plenty, it's the difficulty of getting and, especially, keeping the mage close enough to use it.



That is one of the things I mentioned. When you select "Attack X" mages should still opt to cast touch spells if they have greater potential than an attack. If the miss chance activates, at least they still get an attack.

I can't help but notice that touch spells and close range spells tend to have very low fatigue cost coupled with low path costs. This means a battle mage could theoretically be a viable build, because they could potentially get a lot of spells cast, even in moderate armor. I guess by the time you can take advantage of it, there are simply better spells around, though. I wonder, if "Attack X" still allowed mages to cast spells, would empowering SCs become fashionable.

=$=

[Arralen]

Use "attack, attack, attack, attack, cast spells" .. this will bring him into melee in 80% of cases. And even if he gets stuck behind the front line, he'll at least be able to cast spells at minimung range and with very high prec therefore.

Actually, 3 or even 2 attack orders should be sufficient in most cases, unless you position the mage way behind all troops a start.