Are we paying more for less?

[Talleyrand]

Does anyone else have a problem with the prices here at Shrapnel Games and for the Dominions series in particular? I want to have a serious discussion here. I hate being negative but the business model here just really blows my mind. Years ago I played the Dominions 2 demo and enjoyed it moderately. The graphics were terrible but the game appeared to have depth to it, something that is seriously lacking in today's strategy genre. I was however put off by, what seemed to me to be, exuberant pricing. I was torn by the desire to support an independent developer and publisher making good strategy games, but also not feeling the parties were justified in charging so much for their product: a product with such poor production values. So I would check in every couple of months or so just to see if Shrapnel had lowered the price, so I could finally purchase it. Did they ever lower it? No, and now Dominions 2 has disappeared from their online store, to be replaced by the even more expensive Dominions 3.

I genuinely want to understand this. Practical business says that you charge what the market will bear for your product. Demand is higher upon initial release so you are justified in charging a higher price, but after some time you try to cater to those customers who were on the fence and will only purchase the product when the price comes down. Dominions 2's price never came down, except for one very short-lived monthly special, now it's gone, and once again I as a perspective customer am stuck with the dilemna of wanting to play a strategy game with lots of depth and choices, but not feeling the production values warrant a $55 price tag. Am I alone? I see a lot of people clamoring for the Dominions 3 demo. Obviously you guys don't feel $55 + shipping is reasonable until you actually play the game. That in and of itself says something considering most of you are Dominions 2 fans and familiar with the series.

I just want some type of compromise. You know you have a good thing here with Dominions but you also have to look realistically at the production values of your game over others, along with the standard pricing policies of the industry, and come to the conclusion that maybe you might be even more successful if perhaps you didn't demand so much "loyalty" from people who enjoy your games and want to see good things happen for you and your companies. Charging so much for this series is really just a lose/lose situation. You don't get my money, and I don't get a good game.

Help me help you!

[NTJedi]

Well everyone has a different amount of money they are willing to spend for a great game. The dominions games are more expensive than the usual games found at Software Etc or Walmart yet the content quality is well worth the price in my opinion. The manual is also 300 pages of great information which you won't find from any games at the local stores.

I suggest playing the Dominions_3 demo which is free... and then deciding whether or not the game is worth the price. My guess is the dominions_3 demo should be available for free download in about 2 weeks.

[Theonlystd]

I think they do price themselfs out of alot of potential customers..


Poeple see the graphics and such as you said then see a 55 price tag. They'll instantly be turned off..

[Endoperez]

I don't work for Shrapnel Games, and I'm very much a fan of the Dominions series. In addition, I was in the beta, so I got to play the game for free. With that said, I want to defend Shrapnel Games' decisions. I can't speak for them, but I can direct you to these blog entries written over a year ago.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/2005/02/24/Why-Traditional-Retail-And-Niche-Games-Dont-Work/

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/2005/03/29/Part-Two-Why-Traditional-Retail-And-Niche-Games-Dont-Work/

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/2005/03/07/Niche-Games-And-Niche-Retail/

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/blog/2005/03/04/Fallout-Why-Traditional-Retail-And-Niche-Games-Dont-Work/

[NTJedi]

Theonlystd said:
I think they do price themselfs out of alot of potential customers..


Poeple see the graphics and such as you said then see a 55 price tag. They'll instantly be turned off..



Very true... it will be the demo which will convince people whether or not it's worth the price. The dominions_2 demo only gave 40_turns hopefully the dominions_3 demo doesn't have the same limitation because many gamers downloading demos will ignore demos with turn limits and time limits.

[Nerfix]

The price is a turn off, but on the other hand getting twice the amount of pre-orders than Dominions 2 shows that there is some viability in their aproache. Shaving the price off a bit as time passes wouldn't propably be too bad as the amount of order slowly quiets down.

Then again, I, a student whose main income is refundable soda cans, am willing not only to pay for the game (50 EUR though, Umor bless the €-$ exchange rate) but also wringle a way to order it using another player as proxy.

We all have our treshold of getting stuff. I am quite the scrooge to be honest, but I think Dominions 3 is worth it.

[Nerfix]

NTJedi said:Very true... it will be the demo which will convince people whether or not it's worth the price. The dominions_2 demo only gave 40_turns hopefully the dominions_3 demo doesn't have the same limitation because many gamers downloading demos will ignore demos with turn limits and time limits.

Dominions 3 demo is actually worse than Dom 2 demo from what I gathered. Only 5 Early Age nations, so compared to the total amount of nations it is far less. Not sure about turn limits or research limits.

[NTJedi]

Nerfix said:
Dominions 3 demo is actually worse than Dom 2 demo from what I gathered. Only 5 Early Age nations, so compared to the total amount of nations it is far less. Not sure about turn limits or research limits.



The nation and research limits are understandable, but the turn/time limit prevents gamers from enjoying even one good game and prevents seeing everything the demo has to offer. Took me three incomplete and unsatisfying demo games of dominions_2 before I decided to purchase the game instead of one satisfying demo game.
I only downloaded the demo based on the reviews of other gamers in a different forum... otherwise I would never have even tried dominions_2.

[BigJMoney]

Talley, I think all your points make sense, especially your statement about supply and demand, but consider this: Dominions is an infinitely replayable game. Why lower the price, ever? Do you see the price of Risk or Axis & Allies being lowered? Using the computer as a medium, strategy games are taken to a level that a board and table-top war game can never achieve. The only loss is the ability to physically hold and touch the property you own, and to sit down with companions to play in person. I think the gains at least equal the losses. My point is, if they feel their product has that kind of value, there is no reason to lower it just because several years of other kinds of video game marketing has done so. Also, not all video games come down in price very much, anyway. I was in Best Buy the other day and was surprised to see how much Rise of Nations was still going for, and that's a game that I don't feel is as satisfying to play multiple times as Dominions.

You talk about "production values", but it's the value to the customer that's important. Graphics are highly, highly overrated in the strategy gaming genre. I think what you're seeing is a kind of rebound. Since its inception, the video game market has seen a steady increase in the quality of graphical presentation, so it's become habit to expect it. However, I think many people are starting to break the habit and find value in other things.

Look at the pen and paper RPG market and how expensive their books are...books! Yet, people do place high value on them. Nobody can say if Shrapnel is at the correct place on the supply and demand curve except maybe their accountants, but I don't think things are as incorrect as you believe. Maybe it's different from the norm, but not incorrect. Buying this game will prevent me from buying some other games that are going to be cheaper and made by more established companies. So be it.

[Edit: More established companies is incorrect! I should have said, more prominent or well-known companies.]

=$= Big J Money =$=

[Gandalf Parker]

In practical marketing terms I think that there are X number of dominions players who will buy the game (come on, its a whole $5 more than Dom2 was years ago). And I have no problem with the idea that we are definetly getting our money worth.

You seem to be saying that it should be priced less to get more sales. But that means a loss of revenue on that X number of dominions people who would have bought it at 55. And the gain in sales would have to make up for that amount PLUS some gain above it.

The game is rather a niche market. The graphics and such are still likely to cause people to not buy it. So witohut putting it on store shelves (a very expensive action) Im not sure that new sales would make up the difference.

Maybe the sales of Dom3 will prove that the game has sales potential beyond its fanatical players, and that will allow a change for Dom4. But I think that until then its still a gamble. I think the sales on Dom3 were too needed for anyone to consider gambling on this release.

Gandalf Parker

[Evil Dave]

NTJedi said:

The nation and research limits are understandable, but the turn/time limit prevents gamers from enjoying even one good game and prevents seeing everything the demo has to offer.



I agree. I'd rather have a single nation that I could play all the way thru rather than a number of limited ones. This kind of demo has been done before. The Operational Art of War demo had only one scenario (the Korean War), but it could be played all the way thru as either side.

[B0rsuk]

Can you still fight other nations, even if you can't play as them ?

Speaking of Dominions3 costs... is it really worth it ?

No banks in Poland allow me to pay for Dominions. So I need a paypal account. But I need a special 'e-card' to be to get paypal account. The ecard costs 25 zl/year, about $7.8 .

So it's $55 + $7.8 + shipment cost...

Something for reference. I work 6 hours/day and earn around $331 netto.

[Arralen]

They're eager to get the demo, because shipping the 300-page manual (with CD included) all over the world does take some time.

Demo could be downloaded and help with waiting for the full game to arrive.

Why there's no download option for the full game has been discussed elsewhere. In short: pirated copies and technical issues.

And concerning the price tag: This has been discussed to death as well. In short: making 5000 or 10000 copies of Dominion3 (or maybe even 25000) is nearly as expensive as making 1.000.000 copies of The Sims. (or was it 15M?). Especially considering the 300 page manual full of content. Thats economics of scale.

And you know what? I have seen (not bought) quite a bunch of "A" titles which come at 45-55€ .. and NONE of them delivers the same playablitiy and re-playablity of the Dominions series. Lots of fancy graphics and gourgeous sounds - but no content.

I prefer content.

[Theonlystd]

NTJedi said:

Theonlystd said:
I think they do price themselfs out of alot of potential customers..


Poeple see the graphics and such as you said then see a 55 price tag. They'll instantly be turned off..



Very true... it will be the demo which will convince people whether or not it's worth the price. The dominions_2 demo only gave 40_turns hopefully the dominions_3 demo doesn't have the same limitation because many gamers downloading demos will ignore demos with turn limits and time limits.




True the demo will suck in some thats how it got me in dom2... But the demo covers very little of the game 5 EA nations and does it allow you to research up to lvl 9 in the magic? Or severly limited. The demo wont show some of the best parts of the game and is there a turn limit?. And heck alot of poeple just on principle dont pay this much for games no matter what they offer.



On an unrelated note i just ordered meh copy and expressed mailed..

[Warhammer]

Theonlystd said:
And heck alot of poeple just on principle dont pay this much for games no matter what they offer.



That's their loss then. Some people refuse to buy games, or refuse to buy undiscounted games, etc. That is their own decision and you can't reduce the price of your good to appease a small fragment of your customer base.

[Endoperez]

Warhammer said:That's their loss then. Some people refuse to buy games, or refuse to buy undiscounted games, etc. That is their own decision and you can't reduce the price of your good to appease a small fragment of your customer base.



He is arguing that it is more than just a small fragment of the customer base. There probably are many people who weren't sure about whether they should buy Dominions II or not. The fact that Dominions 3 has a hefty and pricy manual might actually make them even more wary, especially as DomII manual wasn't that great. I hope I never have to decide about marketing. It seems to be very complicated business.

[Sindai]

Talleyrand said:
poor production values


What do you really mean by "production values"? Graphics? If they matter that much more than gameplay to you then Dominions just isn't the game for you.

Unfortuntely that's actually a pretty common sentiment, but there's not much IW can do about it when they only have two or three people. If they actually profit from the game this way then they're way ahead of most of the game industry anyway and there's absolutely no reason for them to change things.

Although it would be pretty awesome if they distributed over Steam like Introversion software instead. Spurning electronic distribution because of piracy is silly; it's not like there aren't easily-accessible copies of Dominions 2 floating around the internet.

[Nerfix]

I think Dominions 2 is far harder to pirate than a lot of other games.

[Endoperez]

Sindai said:

Talleyrand said:
poor production values


What do you really mean by "production values"? Graphics? If they matter that much more than gameplay to you then Dominions just isn't the game for you.

Unfortuntely that's actually a pretty common sentiment, but there's not much IW can do about it when they only have two or three people. If they actually profit from the game this way then they're way ahead of most of the game industry anyway and there's absolutely no reason for them to change things.

Although it would be pretty awesome if they distributed over Steam like Introversion software instead. Spurning electornic distribution because of piracy is silly; there are sites where you can download the full version of Dominions 2 to this day.




I thought that by "poor production values" he meant that there aren't that many people working in the creation of this game, finishing and polishing and squashing tiny bugs. Or that thing I boldened from your reply.

I agree that for fans of the series the game is well worth it. For sometimes-gamers, sunday-afternoon-gods, this mightn't be true. Dominions 3 isn't a cheap game, and that means that some thought must go into buying it. Theonlystd isn't arguing that we who enjoy the game immensely won't buy it at full price; he is saying that many others might buy the game if it was cheaper.

[johan osterman]

Ultimately it is shrapnel that sets the price. Obviously they are intrested in making as much money as possibly from the sales, they wouldn't price Dominions in the range they do if they didn't figure it would earrn them more than it would for them to sell it at, say, 40. Remember that there is a bit of overhead on this, so a 15 dollar price increase might very well mean that shrapnel can take a 50% drop in sales. At 25 dollars they might conceivable have to sell several times the amount they do at 55, which is unlikely even with that price drop, considering that the complexity and lack of glitz means that dominions will remain a niche game whatever the pricing.

[Caduceus]

Let's try his tactic. How many "discount" games do you buy a year? How many of those are you still playing three years after its release?

If you put $5 in a jar each month instead of buying a $20 disposable title-of-the-month and then dropped the $55 on Dominions 3 in a year, you'd have $185. You can tweak these numbers any way you want, of course. But, I think most of us are tired of getting burned with flash-in-the-pan games.

[NTJedi]

Caduceus said:
But, I think most of us are tired of getting burned with flash-in-the-pan games.



I completely agree... within the last 2 years so many games blazingly advertise their great graphics yet when playing the game or the demo it becomes clear the game has very little content, replay value, artificial intelligence and/or stability(bugs). Just taking a glance at screenshots from gamespot.com so many games just advertise their graphics... so pathetic.
The dominions series may not look fancy on the outside but under the hood it's got power.

[Theonlystd]

Warhammer said:

Theonlystd said:
And heck alot of poeple just on principle dont pay this much for games no matter what they offer.



That's their loss then. Some people refuse to buy games, or refuse to buy undiscounted games, etc. That is their own decision and you can't reduce the price of your good to appease a small fragment of your customer base.




There not a majoirty.. But there not a tiny minority either...



Caduceus said:
Let's try his tactic. How many "discount" games do you buy a year? How many of those are you still playing three years after its release?

If you put $5 in a jar each month instead of buying a $20 disposable title-of-the-month and then dropped the $55 on Dominions 3 in a year, you'd have $185. You can tweak these numbers any way you want, of course. But, I think most of us are tired of getting burned with flash-in-the-pan games.




I have Eu2,Crusader Kings,Hoi,Hoi2,Victoria



I only payed more than 20 for one of them


Pic up the Civ games as discount also... The vast majority of the games i buy are at 20 dollars.. By time the game gets down to 20 i'll have a good idea at the quality of the game and it'll be decently patched up



The only reason i've got dominion is cause sadly i know they'll prolly never significantly lower the price.. And this is just the kind of game im always looking for and know that illwinter will come threw with the patchs.

But i doubt most poeple will have the same kind of hankering for this type of game as i do.. Or as know the kind of support illwinter will give

[Leif_-]

Talleyrand said:
I was torn by the desire to support an independent developer and publisher making good strategy games, but also not feeling the parties were justified in charging so much for their product: a product with such poor production values.



In the realm of information-based products (books, movies, music, computer games) as opposed to products that are primarily physical (cars, refrigerators, danish pastries), there is hardly ever any connection between production values and price. You don't pay less to see "The Blair Witch Project" than you do "Star Wars Episode III", even though the first movie had almost no budget or special effects. Production value in these fields are used to attract a greater number of customers, rather than to excuse a higher price.


So I would check in every couple of months or so just to see if Shrapnel had lowered the price, so I could finally purchase it. Did they ever lower it? No, and now Dominions 2 has disappeared from their online store, to be replaced by the even more expensive Dominions 3.

I genuinely want to understand this. Practical business says that you charge what the market will bear for your product. Demand is higher upon initial release so you are justified in charging a higher price, but after some time you try to cater to those customers who were on the fence and will only purchase the product when the price comes down.



There are two reasons why normal games are sold at a refund after a while. The first is that their perceived value in the market has gone down, because newer and, in theory, improved games have entered the market at their old games. Who'd buy a one year old copy of Generic FPS for $50 when they instead can by the recently released Quarter Life II for the same price?

Dominions, however, is a niche game and only competes with other games in the niche, so this effect is pretty much non-existant. The number of out-of-niche games that's been released since the first publishing of Dominions II doesn't affect its perceived value at all, and the number of in-nice-games that's been released over the last three years is quite small and not really significant.

The second reason why normal games are sold at a discount after a while is because they're sold primarily through brick-and-mortar shops who need to shift stock and maximise the use of their shelf space. After a while a store will sell a game for no gain, or even at a loss, just to free up stock space for newer, more profitable games.

Shrapnel, being an exclusive web-shop, doesn't have to worry about that. They don't need to get Dominions II out of the building to make room for Horse and Musket, so they have no reason to settle for a low or even negative profit per sale.


I as a perspective customer am stuck with the dilemna of wanting to play a strategy game with lots of depth and choices, but not feeling the production values warrant a $55 price tag. Am I alone?



No, of course not. A lot of people will feel that the game doesn't warrant its price tag. But that's always the case. The optimal price in a supply/demand graph will always leave some fraction of people feeling it's too expensive. For some products it will even leave the majority feeling it's too expensive.

The question isn't so much whether there are people who feel the price is excessive, as whether this is the price that maximises the total profit. It might not be; Shrapnel might have made a mistake with their pricing, but I don't think there's any reason to suspect that's the case.

[DominionsFan]

Actually I've seen many people arguing about the price.
My opinion is this:

- Dominions 2 was the best turn based strategy, what was ever created. This is not just a subjective opinion. Everyone who took a look at the game was like "wow! fantastic gameplay!" I remember, that when I introduced this game to my mates here, they were like "Eh? What is this? Look at this graphics!" Then I invited them to take a look at the game on my comp. They loved it. After that point they didn't care about graphics. The gameplay and the complexity of the game sucked them in. There are so many different strategies available, that the game never became boring for us.
Dominions 3. will have many new additions. Also don't forget that the developer support is excellent. Basically they try to add everything what is possible. They care what the fans are saying.

- The price might be high. Now this is a bit subjective thing if you ask me. 60$...seriously this is nothing for a game like this. I was paying many hundreds of dollars for paint programs. Dominions is a special game for hardcore strategy fans. If you don't want to pay 60$ for the best turn based strategy game..what can I say? It's a big fault.
I can understand that some people or families don't have too much money [I think B0rsuk mentioned that he earns 330$/month for example, and that is really like nothing], but somehow everyone can spare 60$ I guess, to buy this awesome game.
What can you buy for 60$? You can't even buy a mediocre quality bottle of whiskey.

[Leif_-]

Speaking of Dominions3 costs... is it really worth it ?



It is for me, but it might not be for you. There's really no other answer than that.

[Warhammer]

Endoperez said:

Warhammer said:That's their loss then. Some people refuse to buy games, or refuse to buy undiscounted games, etc. That is their own decision and you can't reduce the price of your good to appease a small fragment of your customer base.



He is arguing that it is more than just a small fragment of the customer base. There probably are many people who weren't sure about whether they should buy Dominions II or not. The fact that Dominions 3 has a hefty and pricy manual might actually make them even more wary, especially as DomII manual wasn't that great. I hope I never have to decide about marketing. It seems to be very complicated business.



Unfortunately, the actual customer base for Dom3 is much smaller than the typical game market. Most of the top selling games are sports sims, not strategy games. On top of that, this is a turn based strategy game, so you have lost the RTS players, etc. Not only that, but you only have sales through online sources, which reduces your customer base even more due to customers not knowing about the product, etc.

Now, once you figure out who your core customer base is, you have to figure out how much you can charge, and given what our likes and dislikes are, $55 is a fair price. Even if you lower the cost to $40, you are not going to sell enough copies to make up the loss in sales that the $15 drop in price will result in.

I'm in marketing so I understand all this stuff! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Endoperez]

Endoperez said:
He is arguing that it is more than just a small fragment of the customer base. There probably are many people who weren't sure about whether they should buy Dominions II or not. The fact that Dominions 3 has a hefty and pricy manual might actually make them even more wary, especially as DomII manual wasn't that great. I hope I never have to decide about marketing. It seems to be very complicated business.





Warhammer said:That's their loss then. Some people refuse to buy games, or refuse to buy undiscounted games, etc. That is their own decision and you can't reduce the price of your good to appease a small fragment of your customer base.



Warhammer said:Unfortunately, the actual customer base for Dom3 is much smaller than the typical game market. Most of the top selling games are sports sims, not strategy games. On top of that, this is a turn based strategy game, so you have lost the RTS players, etc. Not only that, but you only have sales through online sources, which reduces your customer base even more due to customers not knowing about the product, etc.

Now, once you figure out who your core customer base is, you have to figure out how much you can charge, and given what our likes and dislikes are, $55 is a fair price. Even if you lower the cost to $40, you are not going to sell enough copies to make up the loss in sales that the $15 drop in price will result in.

I'm in marketing so I understand all this stuff! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif





Now THAT's a good, informative post, and just to the point! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I hope you don't mind me reorganizing your posts like this.

[Meglobob]

I personally liked the Dom2 demo, probably the most I have ever played a demo ever, when I got to turn 40 I just deceided have I won this game or not? It was more than enough to convince me to buy Dom3, after looking at the forums and finding out Dom3 was basically the same game but bigger, better. As I did not own Dom2, it was easy to buy Dom3.

However when it comes to indulging my favourite hobbey money is not the main issue with me. It's quality, how much play am I going to get, replayabilty value et... i would prefer to pay $60+ for a game I will play for 6 months+, then $40 for a game that lasts barely a week.

Also compare computer games with other entertainment, a book or dvd? A computer game wins every time for value, especially a 4xstrategy game with virtually endless replayability.

[DominionsFan]

Meglobob said:
i would prefer to pay $60+ for a game I will play for 6 months+, then $40 for a game that lasts barely a week.





This is the key sentence. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
I bought tons of games really, and I dropped them all after 2-4 weeks. Dominions 2. is still on my comp and I am playing it when I can, and the same is true about like 25 people here who I know. [Local players here I mean.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif]

[Agrajag]

With the ~65$ the game will cost me (atleast, once I finally order it) I could buy:
28 Decent meals. OR
6 Meals at a fancy restaurant. OR
An ~80GB HD. OR
Almost 6 copies Heroes 3 Complete. OR
Almost 6 copies of the whole Baldur's Gate series. OR
Almost 6 copies of the whole IceWind Dale series. OR
A Pair of Jeans and a shirt. OR
559 Bubblegums.

Anyway, the cost of manufacturing Dominions3 is probably more than twice what manufacturing any other computer game costs. Atleast considering that making a disc costs barely 50 cents...

[DominionsFan]

Agrajag said:

Anyway, the cost of manufacturing Dominions3 is probably more than twice what manufacturing any other computer game costs. Atleast considering that making a disc costs barely 50 cents...



Don't forget about the excellent Dominions 3. manual. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[DominionsFan]

Anyways, I dont understand the title of the topic at all.

"Are we paying more for less?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
Dominions 3. will have lot of new features.
Seriously I don't understand this topic title. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Unwise]

I feel bad answering what is almost certainly a troll post, but I will anyway because I am bored.

Economics 101: suppliers do not set the price of a game, customers do. Oh, sit down and listen. Dom 3 is the most pre-ordered game in Shrapnel's reasonably long history. It will probably go on to become their best-selling game period. This means that either (a) they have priced the game to roughly what it is worth to the buyers or (b, and more likely), they underpriced the game.

So obviously from an economic point of view, the price is more than right when you take the target audience (older gamers who value depth and strategy over "production values").

Also, for the folks who will enjoy the game, the cost of the box is trivial. I will explain:

You will pay a certain amount of money to enhance your leisure time. The amount depends on your personal situation and personality. I for instance am not willing to pay $60 to watch a Will Farrel movie at the theater with my wife ($15 tickets, $15 food, $30 babysitter); that comes out to $30 per hour and it's beyond my comfort level. I am, however, willing to rent that movie for $4 in a few months... $2/hour for entertainment is within my comfort zone.

Likewise, I was willing to pay $20 for Half Life Episode 1, which ran around 6 hours long if your only play through it once... a bit more than $3 per hour, and I'm fine with that. Now look at Dom 2: in the past two years, I have played 20 multi-player games and God only knows how many single-player games. If you take only the multi-player games and assume that I spent a half-hour on each game every day for the past two years (a REALLY low estimate), that comes out to a handy 365 hours for the cost of $50... so 13 cents per hour.

I assume that I will get similar play out of Dom 3, and 13 cents an hour is so deep in my comfort zone that it is not even worth talking about.

Like I said, trivial.

[Meglobob]

DominionsFan said:

Agrajag said:

Anyway, the cost of manufacturing Dominions3 is probably more than twice what manufacturing any other computer game costs. Atleast considering that making a disc costs barely 50 cents...



Don't forget about the excellent Dominions 3. manual. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I have never, repeat never had a 300 page manual with any game ever and I have probably had tens of thousands of computer games in my time.

Don't u just hate them cheap dvd cases computer games come in nowadays? Urgh... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Morkilus]

As weird as this may sound, this thread or any of the dozen threads exactly like it should be stickied. It seems like every week there is someone that complains about the price and never posts again. If there was a single thread containing all the reasons why the fans bought the game and why Shrapnel does business the way they do, that should be enough, and we won't feel obligated to write about it every time.

[Thilock_Dominus]

Well, I don't mind paying $55 for Dom3 for two reasons:
1. Games like Dom series is rare and I havn't seen something equally to them. (Master of Magic comes close).
2. Not many commercial games are made to work natively on linux, so I rarely get new games. If it don't work natively on linux I don't buy simple is that.

[Gandalf Parker]

Agrajag said:
Anyway, the cost of manufacturing Dominions3 is probably more than twice what manufacturing any other computer game costs. Atleast considering that making a disc costs barely 50 cents...



That is why in some cases independent developers find it better to do it themselves, or to go to a PoD site where they can upload a CD image and sell the CD online thru a shop for very little.

Of course, there are drawbacks to that and benefits to using a publisher like Shrapnel to do more than just make the CD.

[Talleyrand]

I am not saying this is a bad series. If I thought it was I wouldn't be here right now, nor would I have wasted my time checking the Shrapnel store over and over again waiting for the Dominions 2 price to drop. Endoperez understood what I was trying to get at perfectly. Production values are simply the costs put in to make a game and with Illwinter being an exceptionally small studio with not many people in its employ, I find it difficult to pay premium prices for their products, as good as those products might be. Graphics are just one component that go into a game and are only a fraction of the total production values that I'm talking about. The fact is, if you bought a Dominions game you paid premium prices for it (and by that I mean higher-than-industry average). Not only have they charged premium prices for their games upon initial release but they have also refused to lower the price of those games even years after first shipping. Niche is no excuse, people expect game prices to fall.

This thread is just a plea to Shrapnel to be more reasonable in their pricing policies. I won't advertise for other companies on a message board of a rival publisher, but suffice to say Shrapnel isn't the only publisher devoted to producing quality strategy titles, and those other publishers are much more consistent with keeping their prices at a minimal for their customers. I think their growing success shows that business model works best. Is Dominions anymore of a niche game than say Europa Universalis, or Supreme Ruler 2010? In my opinion, no, and if you have played those games you would agree. Shrapnel is more of a niche because it has less market share. But maybe that's more because they have no presence in retail stores and because people are only aware of Shrapnel and Dominions through word-of-mouth, a good addition to traditional marketing but not a substitute for it. And of course the high price point we've been discussing doesn't help matters.

As much as I want to support Illwinter and Shrapnel, I can't bring myself to pay a premium for their products, and in that I think we both lose. Am I in the minority? Well that is the million dollar question, isn't it?

[DominionsFan]

Talleyrand, can you please take a look at this reply of mine:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=451813&page=0&view=co llapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

..and give me a proper answer? I smell a troll btw. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Talleyrand]

Morkilus, I don't have a high post count by any means but I'm no stranger to these forums and I have never seen a thread complaining about Dominions pricing or seen one posted in the Shrapnel general discussion trying to get a response from a company representative. Sorry if you are bored responding to them though. I think if they happen as frequently as you say thrn perhaps that should tell you something.

[Talleyrand]

DominionsFan, I think both my posts address that very issue.

[johan osterman]

Talleyrand said:
Morkilus, I don't have a high post count by any means but I'm no stranger to these forums and I have never seen a thread complaining about Dominions pricing or seen one posted in the Shrapnel general discussion trying to get a response from a company representative. Sorry if you are bored responding to them though. I think if they happen as frequently as you say thrn perhaps that should tell you something.


There were similar posts/threads at the release of dom2, and perhaps a few afterwards.

At what price would you buy the game?

[Warhammer]

Talleyrand said:
As much as I want to support Illwinter and Shrapnel, I can't bring myself to pay a premium for their products, and in that I think we both lose. Am I in the minority? Well that is the million dollar question, isn't it?



Other people answered this question already. It all depends on how you look at it.

First, by your own argument, why are you asking about the premium price now since the game just came out? If they lower the price, it shouldn't drop for quite some time since it just came out.

Second, the production values appear to be good. Heck, we're getting a 300 page manual, do you see any game offering that nowadays? How many graphics do you need for a strategy game?

Third, it is a decision made by them. People are refusing to buy Gal Civ 2 because it has no MP. How many people are going to actually play MP in that sort of game? Do you realize what that would add to the cost of that game? Would it be worth it for it to be MP?

People only expect game prices to fall because of overstock issues from big-box retailers. If Best Buy buys 25,000 copies of a game and 15,000 sell after the first 6 months, they are going to drop the price of the other copies because they are trying to move their inventory. This has nothing to do with the publisher, and everything to do with the seller.

I don't know where you are going because you also claim that graphics are "only a fraction of the total production values that I'm talking about." What else goes into total production values?

As another poster mentioned, you basically need to figure out what your threshold cost for the game is. I look at my games as another poster does and figure out a cost/hour ratio and go from there. I have saved more money because I do not rush out and buy every $30-40 game out there because of its price point. I have bought fewer, typically more expensive titles, and have played them to death.

Ultimately, the choice of whether or not to buy it is up to you. But, judging from the pre-orders for this game, Shrapnel has chosen a good price point for it.

[Leif_-]

Talleyrand said:
Niche is no excuse, people expect game prices to fall.



Some people expect the game price to fall, but as I've explained above, the economics means that it is an unreasoanble expectation for this particular case.

[PhilD]

Talleyrand said:
Niche is no excuse, people expect game prices to fall.




So because people expect the price to fall, the price should fall?

Shrapnel aren't trying to conquer the PC gaming world and make every PC gamer buy their products, you see. Most potential PC game buyers certainly do expect the price of a game to drop after a few months - but those same "most" would not buy a game like Dom2 anyway, because the graphics are so primitive, and the box isn't shiny enough (I mean, there is NO box), and there are no voices lines, and so on.

The target audience is different, and it seems that Shrapnel decided that their targeted audience is mostly composed of players who are willing to pay a premium price for what they consider to be a good game - even though most other players would not consider it so, and would not even buy it at maybe $10. Apparently, their sales figure show they were not too deeply wrong. At least from here, I'm happy with the price.

Basically, the price tag has little influence on sales of games like Dominions, so there is little reason for the price to drop after a few weeks or months.

[DominionsFan]

Talleyrand said:
DominionsFan, I think both my posts address that very issue.



I don't see the answer in your replies to be honest.
Basically you say that Dominions 3. is "worse" then Dominions 2. in the title, and that you must pay more for it. This is absolutely not true, since Dominions 3. definitely offers much more then Doms 2.

Anyways keep in mind. Gameplay, complexity, diversity >>> Graphics.
Dominions games are unique. They are gems on the TBS market.

[Talleyrand]

I know, Leif, and I enjoyed reading your replies. I don't think it is unreasonable however to expect Shrapnel to lower the price of a game that has been out for a couple of years, even if there is no direct incentive for them to do that. People expect it to happen, and you in turn garner the sales of those customers who were on the fence and were not willing to pay full price for a game upon initial release. And as I said, I don't believe this game to be that much more a niche than many other notable strategy titles, whose prices have steadily fallen over the years.

Johan, I would pay 40 dollars for Dominions 3 at most plus shipping and probably 30 for Dominions 2, although I think 20 would be more reasonable for such an old game.

As a side note, please quit bringing up the manual when toting the price of this game. The manual is nothing more than a manual. Unless it has a strong piece of fiction inside that lays out the history of the world and its main characters that brings me a keen sense of entertainment, it does not impress me one bit how big it is. I do although appreciate the effort involved in its creation. But I don't pay extra for strategy guides (even for a game like Disgaea 2 lol) and I will not pay extra for a bigger manual, which is basically one way a lot of you are justifying the higher price.

[Talleyrand]

Sorry DF, didn't see that last reply. My thought process is that I didn't even think Dominions 2 was worth the price, let alone a higher priced Dominions 3 based off the same engine as part 2. I tried the Dom 2 demo but never purchased the full game because I was waiting for the price to drop. Now Dom 3 is here at an even higher price and Dom 2 has disappeared from their online store, placing me in the exact same dilemna I was in years ago with Dominions 2.

BTW, I like your signature. I'm a huge CroCop fan myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I tried to get tickets to PrideFC's USA debut but that fell through. I'm looking forward to the next UFC when Sean Sherk and KenFlo go at it.

[DominionsFan]

Talleyrand said:

BTW, I like your signature. I'm a huge CroCop fan myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I tried to get tickets to PrideFC's USA debut but that fell through. I'm looking forward to the next UFC when Sean Sherk and KenFlo go at it.



Eh Mirko is a cool guy, I know him personally, thanks to some people who I know, since they were even training with Mirko. I am interested in fighting myself, if you wonder that why do I have that signature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
[Well nothing serious at the moment, I am still too young for anything related to real fighting, but I am training hard, and I shall see what to do in time.]


Back to the topic..
Hm..but I just don't understand this. You've never bought Dominions 2. because the price was so high, but you know, you've missed an awesome game because of that!
You shouldn't care about a few dollars if you ask me, because these games are really unique.

[Gandalf Parker]

Talleyrand said:
As much as I want to support Illwinter and Shrapnel, I can't bring myself to pay a premium for their products, and in that I think we both lose. Am I in the minority? Well that is the million dollar question, isn't it?



You do understand that asking that in the Dominions forum makes it likely that most people will not agree with you?

But even in the usenet strategy forums I had the same conversation. The person there also was not able to swing a majority.

I really do understand your viewpoint. As a player viewpoint I think its valid. But trying to sound like a nice guy talking to the publisher on a peer level, I dont really think so. It has a chance for some gains but I still feel it would be a risky thing for Shrapnel to try with this version of Dominions. This is a major release both for Illwinter and for Shrapnel. Gambling with pricing might not be a very responsible thing for them to do right now.

I wish I was better at math to put this in a formula but I now that you are talking about cutting their profits probably more than half (at least). And I know that it would take twice as many new buyers to make up that difference, much less make a gain above that to make it worthwhile.

[moodgiesanta]

First of all I choose to believe that Talleyrand is not trolling at all because he hasn't said anything inciendiery and seems just to be speaking (typing?) his/her mind.

I think it's rather simple in the short run why they would keep prices high. Shrapnel knows its audience. The turn based strategy market is small, but I'm gonna take a leap of faith and say that it is older, which means it has more money. The kind of person who is going to buy this game is also the kind of person who is willing to pay a premium to fit their specific needs. In other words, lowering the price to go after a more casual gamer (in other words a gamer that is less inclined to buy this game, evidenced by them not buying at the higher price) is an illogical thing to do. Think about it: the more casual gamer that would be attracted by a lower price is exactly the kind of person to be put off by the graphics and complexity. In other words you're lowering your price to chase after a market that isn't there. In the meantime the folks that were going to buy it anyway at the higher price after being introduced to it are giving you less money.

There is no reason for them to simply follow suit with retailing practices for mass-market games because they are not selling mass-market games. They have no pressing need to clear inventory like a retailer (not to say they have no need at all to clear inventory but it isn't nearly the situation with a retailer where old product competes with new product).

There is also the following problem which has been alluded to but I guess I'll illustrate. Let's use some made up numbers and say that for the first 10000 games printed, the cost of the game to Shrapnel is 30 dollars including manufacturing. If they charge 40 dollars they make 100000 dollars in profit. If they charge 55 dollars they make 250000. That's hugely substantial. So that explains why they would start out at 55.

Now since this is software adding more copies sold decreases the cost per unit fairly substanially when compared to more "hard" goods like say a television. However Shrapnel, the folks with the data on sales and on their customers, have determined that the increase in sales for a lower price point doesn't make up for the loss in profitability even after the initial rush. If there is a market of 25000 copies at 40 dollars and a market of 15000 copies at 55 (assuming a cost of 30 per unit) it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you come out ahead charging 55. In fact the gain is 125000, a number which probably offsets the average cost decrease (the assumption of 30 per unit is not valid because the cost per unit is going to be less for the 25000 than for the 15000). Now these numbers are all made up but the point is that Shrapnel has numbers that *aren't* made up.

Of course the counter-point to all of this is, considering the steep marginal cost decrease once you recoup development costs, why not try and cash in? They lost money not charging less for Dominions 2 leading up to Dominions 3 if they had *any* inventory left, because the sales of Dom 2 after Dom 3 have got to be practically non-existent. They don't have any inventory left of course so that is a moot point Vhttp://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gifV

[Neophyte]

Talleyrand - You said that the manual is just a manual. Based on a small sampling (one scanned image, my preorder shipped today and obviously is not in my twitching hands) it seems to me that the manual is less of a "push these buttons, make game work" manual typical of games these days, but more of reference guide to the features (features = units, spells etc in this context) more similar to a programming language reference guide or an extremely well written after market strategy game guide.

You have discussed production value. I am in the initial planning stages of a small business. One of the most important things I am trying to determine is what my minimum sales volume needs to be to not lose money (I want to start very small and continue to remain employed full-time). This very planning makes me poignantly aware that Shrapnel, having much smaller sales volumes than someone like Atari, or even Atari games sold just at Wal-Mart, must do a similar analysis, only they need to make money beyond their cost of production in order to pay their employees.

Based on my perception of the tone of the forum posts of Shrapnel staff, it seems that they are surprised at the level of success that Dom3 is garnering for them. I agree with the poster who mentioned that from an economic stand point this means that the game is perhaps underpriced.

Lastly, just from playing Dom2 (which I caught on sale at $32.95 - Shrapnel does periodically reduce prices) I would say that the replay value is definately in the top 5 games that I own. In making this assessment I am combining price per unit time spent playing the game as well as the intangible of personal sense of enjoyment per unit time spent playing the game.

Thank's for letting me share my thoughts regarding this thread.

[Maltrease]

One thought on lowering the price after a certain time period:

Some people that would buy the game now would instead wait until the price is lowered. Knowing that the price is not going to be lowered means you do not have any reason to not buy the game now.

[Mortibus]

I do think that Dominions 3 is worth the price, and I personally think an actual manual is a real selling point.

However, I agree with Talleyrand that keeping Dominions 2 at full price for so long is rather unreasonable, and they lost a sale in my case.

I discovered D3 a few months ago, I had been looking for D2 for a long while (I just knew of a screenshot and some details, but not the name).

I myself would have snapped up D2 in a second for $20 while waiting for D3. But their "reduced" selling price was at $40, something I am just never going to pay for a game that is a few years old.

But $60 for an excellent new product by an independent developer, despite the lower production values? No problem here.

[Leif_-]

Maltrease said:
Some people that would buy the game now would instead wait until the price is lowered. Knowing that the price is not going to be lowered means you do not have any reason to not buy the game now.



Indeed. Which is why it can make sense for a company that's somewhat insulated from direct competition, as Shrapnel as an exclusive publisher of distinct titles in a small niche is, to have a stated policy of not downpricing old games. While it might lose some of the fence sitters, others of them will buy the game at a higher price than they otherwise would and, just as importantly, they'll buy the game earlier after launch, at the point where there are bills to be paid. (Cash-flow is often just as important as net income.)

[Warhammer]

Talleyrand said:
I know, Leif, and I enjoyed reading your replies. I don't think it is unreasonable however to expect Shrapnel to lower the price of a game that has been out for a couple of years, even if there is no direct incentive for them to do that. People expect it to happen, and you in turn garner the sales of those customers who were on the fence and were not willing to pay full price for a game upon initial release. And as I said, I don't believe this game to be that much more a niche than many other notable strategy titles, whose prices have steadily fallen over the years.



It depends upon the situation. Dealing with a publisher is not the same as dealing with a distributor or a reseller. When dealing with the publisher, their cost of making the game is not going to diminish over time. As a result, the price is going to stay constant.

A distributor or retailer is a completely different animal and they are looking for turns on their inventory dollars. Therefore, after a game has been on the market for so long, they lower the price to recoup some of their initial investment.

Now, sometimes the original publisher will reduce the cost of their game due to inventory issues, but that depends upon the size of the publisher and other factors. Not knowing how much it cost to make Dom 2, I have no basis for why the cost of the game has remained high. I do know that for the past few weeks, it has been backordered, which means they don't have any copies available. Since the release of Dom 3 was imminent, I am not surprised the cost shown remained high.


Talleyrand said:Johan, I would pay 40 dollars for Dominions 3 at most plus shipping and probably 30 for Dominions 2, although I think 20 would be more reasonable for such an old game.

As a side note, please quit bringing up the manual when toting the price of this game. The manual is nothing more than a manual. Unless it has a strong piece of fiction inside that lays out the history of the world and its main characters that brings me a keen sense of entertainment, it does not impress me one bit how big it is. I do although appreciate the effort involved in its creation. But I don't pay extra for strategy guides (even for a game like Disgaea 2 lol) and I will not pay extra for a bigger manual, which is basically one way a lot of you are justifying the higher price.



I'm going to give you an example here:

A supermarket buys cans of Super Deluxe Root Beer for $.20 per can. They sell it for $.40 per can. They sell about 100 cans per week. Most Root Beer sells for $.30 per can. A customer comes up and tells the manager of the store that he won't buy the Super Deluxe Root Beer for $.40 per can, but he would at $.35 per can.

At 100 cans of sales per week, the supermarket makes $20 per week off of the Super Deluxe Root Beer. If they sell 101 cans per week at $.35 per can, they will only make $15.15 per week. To gain the one extra customer, they sacrificed $4.85 to the bottom line, not good business.

The reason why many people have brought up the manual is threefold. There were legitimate gripes about the manual for Dom 2, and there were plenty of people (i.e. more than one or two people) that claimed they stayed away from the game because of the manual. Second, the quality of a manual is one of production values that you said the game did not have a lot of (a 300 page reference book/manual for a game of this type is a must have to plan what you are going to do, much easier than searching for everything in game). Third, the cost of the manual has a direct impact on the cost of the final product. If a 300 page manual costs $20 per game (which would not surprise me, depending upon the quality of the graphics, etc.) then the price of the game is going to change accordingly.

I don't know exactly what you want to hear in answer to your post. You have bypassed several direct answers to your concerns or questions, yet you still say the same thing. If you are trying to get the price of the game reduced, it isn't going to happen at this point, and I highly doubt one person is going to make a difference to a price policy for a company (not a well run company at any rate).

I am not trying to be a fanboy or anything else, this is the first game from Shrapnel that I have bought. However, I completely understand how pricing is determined for products as I am the Sales and Marketing Manager for the company I work for, so I understand why many of these decisions are made.

[Archonsod]

Practical business says that you charge what the market will bear for your product



Practical business says you charge what the market will pay for it. It's better to sell three copies for $50 each than 6 copies at $20.



You know you have a good thing here with Dominions but you also have to look realistically at the production values of your game over others, along with the standard pricing policies of the industry



Two things:

1. Price drops in shops are usually the retailer's perogative, the loss is kicked back to the publisher. Given the choice, most publisher's wouldn't lower the price at all - look at other online only stores/distribution services, most keep the price steady since they can afford to set the initial price lower than other sources. The fact is that it's the retailer's stranglehold that allowed the practice to start in the first place (since you either agreed with them, or you didn't see your title on the shelves)

2. Shrapnel are a small publisher. Larger publishers can afford to spread their costs. To a company like EA, it doesn't matter if they lose a few thousand on one or two titles when they can rake in a few million with another title. They know they'll make huge profits on a couple of franchises which will more than cover the losses they make on the majority of their other games. For a smaller company with a smaller audience you just don't have that flexibility.



Charging so much for this series is really just a lose/lose situation. You don't get my money, and I don't get a good game.



Only if they were counting on your money. Since the game has already broken the pre-order record (given the work they've had to put in to ship the pre-orders, I suspect it nearly broke their capacity too!) they're still getting their money, it's you who loses out on a great game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Is Dominions anymore of a niche game than say Europa Universalis, or Supreme Ruler 2010?



Probably not (though EU did quite well commercially). The thing is, I wouldn't consider either game to be worth the same price. I didn't buy EU until it was in a sale. I'm more than happy to pay full whack for Dominions though, which to be honest is probably the first time I've said that for a while. It's somewhat silly to base how much your willing to pay on the production values rather than the quality (i.e. the value to you) of the product. Many premium products don't cost significantly more than their counterparts to produce, however they sell for a lot more because people are willing to pay much more due to it's percieved value or quality. It's simple economics again, if a great game costs $10 to make, people are going to be willing to pay more than they would for a poor or mediocre game, even if it cost substantially more to produce.

Actually, CD Rom provides a good example for those old enough to remember when they first appeared. It's way cheaper to produce a game (or audio for that matter) on a CD than it was to produce it on diskette or audio cassette. You wouldn't have thought it from the price they sold at though, since CD was always more expensive than it's counterpart.

[JaydedOne]

I'm still trying to figure out what "less" is actually supposed to mean here. I'm not paying "more" to begin with. $54.95 is about standard median price between my XBox 360, computer and PS2 purchases. So I'm paying about average.

As for less, most computer games offer me considerably less in the way of strategic options and replay value(I paid full price for Master of Orion 3 and Civ IV, neither of which hold a candle here). As much as you seem to dismiss the manual as a value-add, the fact is that most of us DO see it as one because, as has been noted earlier, it's the equivalent of what most companies put out as strategy guides at $20 a pop. We get "less" in the way of graphics, certainly, but I won't launch into my rant about how I'd trade polygon count for a game that breaks molds and forces me to think. I've had enough beautiful FPS and RTS games all cut from the same cloth to last me a lifetime... or at least until Halo 3 and Bioshock come out. *ahem*

And, of course, there's the small publisher angle. I grit my teeth at buying an EA or Rockstar product at full price. I actually find that, despite their huge budgets, their QA tends to be atrocious by comparison to smaller companies and I hate their corporate politics. I love the fact that Illwinter is essentially two guys (and a few helpers) who love what they do and do it as best they can in their spare time. I love that Shrapnel is a small company that continues to pump out complex games in a market that's increasingly shy about them because of their lack of mass appeal. And I'm willing to pay $55 (although I paid only $48 due to their pre-order special) to go ahead and show them the love they deserve.

If you don't feel the same, that's fine. But one play of Dominions 3 has already convinced me that I'm never going back to Dominions 2 except for the occasional nostalgia play. Already, I'm convinced it's THAT much better. I wish you the best either way.

[alexti]

Leif_- said:
There are two reasons why normal games are sold at a refund after a while. The first is that their perceived value in the market has gone down, because newer and, in theory, improved games have entered the market at their old games.


Part of this reason is that the only strong suit of many games is high-end graphics. Which after a year becomes not so high-end and a bit later it becomes just outdated. Without anything else to offer the value of those games falls to pretty much zero.

Dominions don't suffer from it, because they start with outdated graphics and the gameplay content doesn't deprecate with time. At least until they get some competition, which so far was non-existent.

[Taqwus]

You're also paying to support developers and a publisher who don't simply release a couple of perfunctory patches before releasing a somewhat-debugged and slightly-expanded version as a $$$ sequel or expansion just months later... followed by a $$$ 'Gold Edition'... and who actually take into account user feedback.

If you look at EU, for instance, what was the length of the gap between EU and EU II? And did the publisher and developer show any inclination whatsoever to deal with major issues such as the AI's tendency to fixate on particular provinces, its blatant cheating with respect to (complete immunity to) fleet attrition, or so forth?

If you take developer responsiveness into account, you'll often find better value with, say, Illwinter, Malfador Machinations, Battlefront, HPS Simulations...

[TheBigBlueBox]

I think the previous posters in this thread explained it pretty well, but I'll sum up why it's okay for dominions 3 to be $55.

First of all, it's the niche market that dominions caters to. D3 will only sell a few thousand copies to a select few hardcore TBS and fantasy/myth fans... there's no way illwinter/shrapnel can make any kind of profit (and therefore continue to make games) if they sell it at less then $55.

Secondly, the 300 page spiral bound printed manual costs ALOT to produce. The manual alone adds at least $10 to the price and is well worth it.

Thirdly, let's look at what the game features shall we:

Over 1500 different units...all with unique abilities and strategies for using them, 600+ spells.. and not just a bunch of spells that are just the same spell with varying power, but unique spells with unique effects and unique descriptions.... FIFTY unique nations to play as with wildly differing strategies... add to that all the choices you have in a single turn, multiplayer support, modability, improved AI (which is a feat for this level of detail), and oh yeah, a 300 page manual...

Now tell me this game isn't worth $55 to a fan of this type of game...

[BigJMoney]

A couple things:

1) I agreee with Morkilus the wise, sitcky this!

2) The OPer is not trolling. Let's not start a witch-hunt here. The person has every right to not only speak his mind politely, but also pose a difficult question.

3) "More for less" has been adequately explained. He means more as in the price compared to Dom 2, and less meaning lower production values than larger development schemes.

@Talley
Everything you have brought up has already been addressed eloquently by people with very piquant points. You are priced out, and that's all there is to it. You will overcome your perceived dillema with the game's price or you won't.

**Tries to use hypnosis -- "You will get over your dillema..."**

Shrapnel's current goal is to run a business. Maybe the business owner(s) possess the utlimate goal of helping good games reach people, or maybe not. Trying to find their proper place in the market is probably a good way to achieve a goal like that though, even if many are priced out. Don't be convinced by convention that they are making a bad decision here, when it could very well be the best one to reach their goals. Then again, maybe not. Maybe they are shooting themselves in the foot. We'll probably know for sure in five years.

=$=

[KissBlade]

Digitalize everything =). Save the production cost, save the manual cost. Lower the price, easier accessibility, HURRAH FOR ALL!! Except for the people who have to do the extra work of the digilitalizing =).

[Taqwus]

One problem with digital-everything: it becomes trivial to put an essentially identical distribution onto, say, P2P systems. For a game that offers a decent single-player mode and does not involve heavy copy protection with online activation or so forth, this is risky. While a physical manual can be scanned (although one can make this harder, through the use of extremely ugly color schemes -- SimCity copyright sheet, anyone? -- 300 pages of that would be insane), at the least it's something that differentiates the licensed from the non.

One of the more common arguments you'll hear about P2P music is that if the studios don't want people to simply download their music for nothing, they should offer extras -- the experience of a performance, goodies with the physical CD, et al. From a pragmatic point of view, this is not unreasonable in either music or software. A good bound manual would seem to qualify so long as the users are willing to absorb the cost.

[Nerfix]

Talleyrand said:As a side note, please quit bringing up the manual when toting the price of this game.

We can't, since the manual rather directly affects the manufacturing costs of the game.

[Voidhawk]

Well, let's see...

If I require 4 strategy games with high production values at average market price to keep me entertained for 6 months, but only one strategy game with decent production values at 1.25 times average market price to entertain me for a year...

I've always regarded Shrapnel as the game industry equivalent of one of those rare import furniture/home decor stores. The stuff is kinda expensive, but you can't get it anywhere else, and it's damn sure cooler than anything you could ever buy from Sears or Target.

Good strategy and war titles are a rarity these days, after all, so I feel the little bit of extra money spent is well worth the product that Shrapnel delivers.

[Jarkko]

50€ is about four months of WoW (if you don't count in the initial purchase, which at the time when I bought the game was 55€ but seems to be now 25€). I've played WoW for 18 months. Sure, graphics are cuter in WoW than in DOM, but graphics has never been the reason for me to play games.

I presume I will be playing DOM3 (just as I did/do play DOM2, or EU2 or CK) for years. Most likely not as horribly much as I played WoW, but neither is the price that much compared. When I evaluate "Bang for Bucks" I would dare to say DOM3 has a much higher BfB factor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Boron]

Thilock_Dominus said:
Well, I don't mind paying $55 for Dom3 for two reasons:
1. Games like Dom series is rare and I havn't seen something equally to them. (Master of Magic comes close).



Yup only Eu2 comes somewhat close to Dom2 for me.
And Dom3 adds lots of new nice stuff.
Dom3 is simply the best turn based strategy game i know, and turn based strategy games are my favourite genre http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

And the dominions community is fantastic too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
I have started recently playing Eu2 in MP, 2 of the 3 games i participated ended because the players started to argue and the 3rd game is currently in this phase too and it is uncertain whether we can continue it.
I played at least 20 dom2 longterm mp games which take as much or more time as an eu2 mp game, almost all of these games were finished and normally the players all behaved very fair and mature.
In my eu2 MP games though whining and *****ing is too common for my taste http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

If you love turn based strategy games then consider that you will play Dom3 probably longer then the time you played your 3 (or more) favourite other turn based strategy games.
If you bought those other turn based strategy games on release they costed you at least 3x40$. Compare that to 55$ for Dom3.

[Boron]

JaydedOne said:
If you don't feel the same, that's fine. But one play of Dominions 3 has already convinced me that I'm never going back to Dominions 2 except for the occasional nostalgia play. Already, I'm convinced it's THAT much better. I wish you the best either way.


Exactly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

When i still played Dom2 blitzes i always thought if my companions already had Dom3 this would be even more fun.
Fortunately this is now over almost and in a week i hope everybody has their copy of Dom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Endoperez]

JaydedOne said:
I'm still trying to figure out what "less" is actually supposed to mean here. I'm not paying "more" to begin with. $54.95 is about standard median price between my XBox 360, computer and PS2 purchases. So I'm paying about average.



I think he refers to the other games in general, not to Dominions II. "More for less", or "more money for something that won't be as polished and bug-free and won't get its bugs squashed as quickly as a bigger company could make it happen".

"More" isn't about the starting price, but the price you can eventually buy the game at. I don't have any consoles, but I've understood that it's standard market practise for everything to considerably drop in price as time goes by, from consoles to games to accessories.
"Less" isn't about the improvements from DomII in this case, as far as I've understood Talleyrand's intent.

However, as other posters have noted:
1) Shrapnel Games does very good work in customer service, even though (or because?) they are a small company.
2) Dominions II was enjoyable for a long time, and Dominions 3 will probably be the same. The series beats many competitors in this amount, but as I haven't actually played many strategy games besides Dominions, I can't comment on that.

The manual is a hefty issue. I actually predicted this earlier in this thread. The manual lists summons, items and spells, and I understand it does this much better than Dominions II manual did. I understand it also offers simple strategies and playing hints and goes into more detaile when explaining the mechanics; could anyone who actually has the paper manual comment on this?
The game can be hard to get into. The manual makes it easier to get into the game, making more people who buy the game able to enjoy it. Perhaps it's better this way than if the game was sold without the manual, and people were left confused?



BigJMoney is right. The only troll in here is in Leif's avatar. I enjoy this discussion, even though there are too few people arguing against Shrapnel's policy to make this really enjoyable debate.

[Saxon]

Thank you to the kind poster who stated that Talley is not a troll. I thought twice about posting, as the bulk of readers are very much against him. However, I support Talley.

The discussion has focused on Dominions and could have included SEIV, which was another excellent game. The majority of buyers will agree they are excellent products and probably worth the price. With that said, despite owning Dom 1 and 2, I have yet to order Dom 3 and certainly refused to pre-order it. Why?

Shrapnel’s pricing policy applies to all their games; they keep prices high and rarely relent. I put my faith in Shrapnel and pre ordered Coliseum and bought the War Engine blind. The prices were high, but I figured Shrapnel only backed good games. I was wrong.

Some of the games are of very low quality and one of the recent releases is far outclassed by a freeware game in exactly the same niche. Yet the prices remain high. Essentially, Shrapnel uses the same strategy for all their games, regardless of the quality. I deeply honour their right to make money and wish them luck (due to their support of good games) but I do not trust them any more. I will wait until I am sure the game is good (as seen in the forums) and I have a chance to play the demo.

My second point has been touched on by others. Old games do go down in price on the market. Victoria, EUII, and Hearts of Iron are all games in a similar niche and all have their prices decline over time. I get similar replay value from them as I do from Dom II, yet got them at much lower prices. Paradox provides excellent patches and support, equal to or better than anything else on the market. Again, while I honour Shrapnel’s right to make money, my experience with the rest of the games market is that prices decline, no matter the quality of the product.

If Shrapnel can buck the market and make a living, well, good for them. That doesn’t make me approve of their pricing system or want to take part in it. From the good reviews of Dom 3, I will have a look at the demo and I might get the game. But the pricing model they use on all of their games ensures that I will think a lot harder about it than otherwise. Maybe I am that person right at the intersections of the pricing curve, the marginal one who will go either way. Or maybe my past experience of their pricing model has made me a much pickier buyer of their products.

[JPSeraph]

I still remember dishing out $80 for Dungeon Master on SNES and loving that game to death. So $55 doesn't seem like too much for a game - the first game in years - that really evokes that same sense of discovery and recaptures the joy of those early gaming experiences.

Most everything since the early days has been streamlined interfaces, pretty graphics, crap gameplay, and no actual improvement on the great ideas that were floating around not so long ago and seem all but lost in today's Hollywoodesque gaming market.

And then I stumbled upon Dominions a couple of months ago. $55 is nothing, and as so many have said, it's probably Shrapnel's optimal selling price.

I wouldn't pay $5 for Disciples 2 on Amazon, but I gladly paid $35 for Dominions 2 even knowing that Dominions 3 was just around the corner. That's value.

[DominionsFan]

JPSeraph said:

I wouldn't pay $5 for Disciples 2 on Amazon, but I gladly paid $35 for Dominions 2 even knowing that Dominions 3 was just around the corner. That's value.



Yep. Since Doms 3. is an unique game on the strategy market, I don't see any problems with the high price of the game.
Not to mention that I can tell you the same like JPSeraph.
I wouldn't pay 5 euros for NHL 07 for example, but I would glady pay 100$ for Dominions 3.

[marc420]

A couple of comments on this discussion ...

$55 is a very high price for a game. That price will certainly effect my decision whether to buy or not. Since I already own Dom2, much of my decision making will be whether the game is sufficiently better than Dom 2 to justify spending $55 to buy it, or if I'd rather not just fire up Dom2 and play it again.

Please don't tell me that this price is this high because of a manual and the decision to print it for each purchase. If that is the case, then Shrapnel really should offer two purchase options ... one with a printed manual, and one where the manual comes with the game in electronic form.

I would never ever buy a game because someone says there's a big thick manual. I've bought a lot of games in my life, and rarely is the manual even touched a week after buying the game. Regardless of the thickness of the manual, it has been a long, long, long time since I've seen one where the content justified paying much attention to it. Typically the content level of game manuals is extremely low.

An example of what I mean would be many, many pages devoted to such complicated and intricate topics such as pressing the button marked "New Game" to start a new game, pressing the button marked "Save Game" to save a game you are playing, etc. Usually the thickness of the manual comes from the fact that not only was text needed to explain these functions in depth, but screen shots are also required!

When someone tells me I'm paying $55 for a manual, I know from personal experience that I'm extremely unlikely to read it more than once, and that after a week it will be laying around my house unread. Eventually it will get picked up from the floor near the computer, where it will be sitting gathering dust and serving as a coaster, and be placed on a bookshelf.

Oh well, main reason I came here was to see if there was a demo out. I didn't know the price, but that makes it even more important for me to see the demo before buying. And like I said, the main question I'll have is whether its worth $55 to go from Dom2 to Dom3. And I'd have to say I'm starting out sceptical about that one.

And since Shrapnel has the policy of not lowering the price over time, then it means that if the game fails that test, then I'm unlikely also to buy it in the future. There is a certain logic in offering the game for a lower price as time passes after release. I may or may not feel the game is worth $55 to upgrade Dom2 to Dom3, but there have been many games I've bought for $9 or $19 later. It becomes a different decision at that price.

Oh well, this being a game message board, I'm sure I'll be flamed for daring to have my own opinions and judgements and for not just running lemming-like to give my money to other people.

And oh yeah, its pre-Christmas. Given the huge amount of junk pushed on the market by other game companies at this time of year (I'm not saying that this is true for this game, after all there's no demo to see yet), I've become very sceptical about buying any game that's released between now and Christmas. Its definitely the time of year to remind myself to go into "game buying quarantine" mode. And then just wait and see what's out and what state it is in.

The bean counters at any game company want games released and on the shelves by a certain date for this time of year. In some (ie, many) companies (maybe or maybe not these guys) that's been known to override any logical decisions about whether the game is really ready to release. By doing this, the game industry as a whole has made me very, very sceptical about buying any newly released game at this time of year.

[Endoperez]

marc420 said:Oh well, this being a game message board, I'm sure I'll be flamed for daring to have my own opinions and judgements and for not just running lemming-like to give my money to other people.

And oh yeah, its pre-Christmas. Given the huge amount of junk pushed on the market by other game companies at this time of year (I'm not saying that this is true for this game, after all there's no demo to see yet), I've become very sceptical about buying any game that's released between now and Christmas. Its definitely the time of year to remind myself to go into "game buying quarantine" mode. And then just wait and see what's out and what state it is in.

The bean counters at any game company want games released and on the shelves by a certain date for this time of year. In some (ie, many) companies (maybe or maybe not these guys) that's been known to override any logical decisions about whether the game is really ready to release. By doing this, the game industry as a whole has made me very, very sceptical about buying any newly released game at this time of year.



Very nice post. I certainly hope you aren't flamed, but I'm afraid your message will be flooded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The Pre-Christmas release is also a good point. I don't think anyone else brought it up yet. I think many feel this is an extra Christmas rather than a great Christmas gift, though... In the materialistic sense of the word, of course.

[marc420]

With regards to music, I know of bands that made a great deal of money by letting music be downloaded or traded for free. Then they make their money by selling concert tickets to the people who liked what they heard.

Ever hear of the Grateful Dead? In terms of concert tickets, they were annually either the highest grossing band in the world, or very near the top of the list. At their peak, they could easily sell out 80,000 seat football stadiums for multiple shows several days in a row in the same city, with little or no marketing or advertising costs.

What they did was early on they decided it was perfectly ok for fans to bring recording gear to concerts and record their shows. And that as long as these recordings weren't being sold for money or profit, that it was perfectly ok for fans to share and trade these recordings. So these recordings always circulated amongst their fans, and to friends of fans as an introduction to their music. When Mp3 and the internet came along, they were all freely available there ... as long as the websited didn't charge for them. You couldn't even have advertising on your site if you had their music up there. But if you just put it up for free and weren't making any money from it, the band was very happy to let anyone do that.

They also always kept their ticket prices near the minimum possible price. For someone who bought tickets to different bands that came around, the Grateful Dead usually ran at about half to two thirds the price of other shows. And they've never hit the triple digit gouge pricing of other shows ... unless its a charity benefit and even then that price usually includes a reception with the band before the show.

All of this sounds counter-productive ... give your music away for free, price your shows as cheaply as possible instead of as expensively as possible. It sounds crazy ... until you see 200,000 fans all trying to get tickets in an 80,000 seat stadium ... and again with almost zero costs in local marketing or advertising of the show. Because of the decisions they'd made that seemed very counter-productive, about all they had to do was to rent the stadium and haul their gear and crew around. Set up to play, then watch the people flow in and the money hit the till. That, combined with the fact that they produced amazingly good music, made those guys all very, very wealthy. (they also kept most the middle-men out ... they either were their own concert producers\promoters ... or they worked with people they knew and liked in different cities. Even today, they are one of the very few groups of musicians that still own the rights to publish their own music as audio, video or sheet music.)

The middle-men part might be relevant to this discussion. Remember, there's two companies that need to try to make money from your Dom3 purchase, not just one.

Just a note that there are other models for making money out there rather than "grab as much money as possible on every transaction". Don't know if that applies here ... just adding some thoughts that came to me while reading the discussion above.

[DominionsFan]

Actually a couple of very good games will be released until X-mas. marc420, your statement is not very correct. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Warhammer]

I agree, I have never bought a game just because it has a manual, but I have opted to not buy games because the manual was terrible. Shrapnel made a business decision and opted to print the manual. Also, there are costs that are associated with a digital release as well. Often times there are issues therein, which causes much more damage to the company than charging more for a regular release (I have been there with both SI Games and Stardock, luckily for them in both cases the games rocked after I got everything sorted out).

However, you mentioned something that is very smart. Wait for the demo, and then decide whether or not the game is worth $55. I played the Dom2 Demo recently and have been playing it to death. For me, the $55 is worth it because I do not have Dom 2. However, I can understand the debate if someone does own Dom 2 in waiting before they decide to drop $55 on a game. I love FM2006, but am probably going to skip FM2007 for the same reason.

Regarding the decision of Shrapnel to not reduce price on their games, it is a decision that is up to them. They have decided that their business model is best suited by not cutting price. Cutting price is typically indicative of a poor business model because you bought too much supply and must dump it to recoup some of the expense of making it.

[Gandalf Parker]

I wasnt sure why they didnt cut the price of Dom2 about 6 months ago. I think they could have benefited by cutting it down to almost production costs and building up the player base in preparation for Dom3.

But thats about the only point I can really concede on. Digital isnt ready yet, and Dominions is a major item for Shrapnel so I wouldnt experiment with digital on a Dom release.

As for costs, keep in mind that besides a profit for Johan and Kristoffer, Shrapnel needs to make a profit AFTER costs. Besides production costs Shrapnel has multiple employees. At least 7 that I know of and thats just department heads. Scott Krol is one that many dont know of but he does the PR releases. I set up auto-emails when things that interest me hit the newswires and Ive seen steady traffic concerning Dominions 3 and Rising Star. Scott is doing great work for the developers.

Also there are the servers. The ShrapnelGames main server, the ShrapnelCommunity one (these forums), GamersFront (the store), backups, mail, accounting.

Its not like its a 50 cent CD (as one person said). And its not greed. Read the "About Us" page on ShrapnelGames.com and get a feel for the companys direction.

[Agrajag]

Gandalf Parker said:
Its not like its a 50 cent CD (as one person said).


I think you took my post out of context.
What I said was that the cost of making a game CD itself are very (very!) low, unlike costs for a manual, which can be many many times more expensive. This is to say that the cost of actually producing a copy of dominions 3 is probably much higher than other commercial games with crappy manuals.
Obviously, on top of that there's employee's wages, paying Illwinter and other costs.

Another point I'd like to make (specifically to marc420) is that the Dominions 3 manual is very different from other manuals. It isn't the usual 10 pages of "Press the left mouse button to 'click'".
This is what I know about the manual from what has been said on the forum:
1) IIRC it was written by game guru Bruce Geryk.
2) It contains pages of reference sheets and lists that are very handy in playing the game. Viewing every item in the game for example can be very helpful when deciding if you want to empower that mage for forging.
3) It explains the game mechanics, which is obviously very useful.
And I suppose there's lots of other stuff I don't know about (or that my puny brain has filtered out)

All of these help to make sure this manual is a keeper, rather than a coaster.

[Terl]

I bought Dom2 at regular price after reading many glowing recommendations from Gandalf Parker on this and other forums. About a month after I got Dom 2 they announced Dom 3 pre-orders. I gladly purchased it (got it day before yesterday, woot!).

I have no problems with the pricing when I look at the hours and hours of enjoyment I have had with Dom 2 and will have with 3.

For fun per dollar the game is a bargain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[BigJMoney]

When I read this, there is one thing that constantly surprises me. It's how much people allow themselves to be influenced by convention. I don't think $55 is a high price, and many people have also given examples of why they don't think so, either. I do think $55 is a lot of money, especially to me. So far, everyone who has said that it is "too high" for their taste have been using other games/trends examples. Who cares about other games? Dominions 3 is not other games. This argument is skating the edge of the attitude that says, "The world owes me a living." Look at Dominions 3 and make your own intellectual decision about whether you feel it will be worth your $55. It's as simple as that. Not even other games sold by Shrapnel in the past need to influence your decision. Are we paying more for less? My vote is no, and to those of you who want to like the game, but are stuck in a mental bind on its perceived value, I pity you.

=$=

[Archonsod]

Thanks to the exchange rate, Dominions actually cost me considerably less than the majority of mainstream games. Of course, with the p&p costs it was back on equal terms...

[Nerfix]

Archonsod said:
Thanks to the exchange rate, Dominions actually cost me considerably less than the majority of mainstream games. Of course, with the p&p costs it was back on equal terms...

Same here.

[Mltdwn]

I don't know, as a Strat fan I have to agree it is a bit high for even my blood. I mean to me it comes down to paying nearly as much as I could for a 360 game (and yes there ARE some enjoyable, long playing games on the 360, I'm STILL playing Star Wars Legos and Dead Rising, plus some others) for a 4X fantasy game with poor graphics, etc. And before anyone bashes me on wanting good graphics I have to ask when the last time YOU bought a video card considering they are up ~$200 for a midline one, yeah I want my game to utilise it to it's fullest ability if I am paying that much.

Or I could simply wait one more month and getting Medieval 2: Total War which is largely the same thing, sans magic/random maps but has far better graphics, and realistic ground battles with 10k+ men on the field per side which you can actually control that takes everything into account just like in real life (with some exceptions with playability). And a relativly deep political/diplomatic interplay (compared to the Dom series) between all of the nations allowing you to turn nations against one another, play all the sides, etc., rather than simply "must destroy everyone" like in Dom3. AND pay only ~$40 for them. Not to mention the mods which will add the fantasy elements to it, like the already released Middle-Earth mod for R:TW.

And as for discount games, yes I bought EVERY single TW game when they hit the bargain bin and I STILL play all 3 of them and their expansions to this day on a fairly frequent basis. M2 is going to be the first I buy on release day because of CA's production values.

[JaydedOne]

I'm not sure what to tell you Mltdwn. So much of this discussion seems to boil down to "I'm totally going to buy this game" or "I'm definitely not buying this game". With so little room in-between, all we can really do is wish each other the best with our respective choices.

If the price point is the straw that breaks your camel's back, so be it. If Shrapnel feels that the price point is hurting them, I'm sure they'll adjust their market strategy. In the meantime, I guess I just need to spend less time trying to convince you of why it's worth $55 directly and more time just enjoying my new game. If I write enough about how great it is as I'm experiencing it, maybe you'll come around. And if you don't, we'll miss having you.

[Mltdwn]

I see your point Jayd.. My whole problem is while I like the idea of Dom3... It doesn't really strike me as worth the money when another company is providing essentially the EXACT same game in most respects, with higher production values, more gameplay options, and have made a fortune off of 4x games and proven it is anything but a "niche" market with reasonable prices... Basically what I am saying is with the competition releasing the same game in a month with all of those added abilities and production values for a lower price point what makes Dom3 worth it as it adds nothing different really (other than sprite based ground combat you can't control) to the gameplay.

[Nerfix]

Illwinter would need a lot more crew if it would wish to make a game up to date with graphics, and it would mean they would have to most likely cut down the amount of content.

More crew would need more money etc.

And MTW:2 is hardly equal to Dominions 3 and I doubt a middle earth mod for it will never reach even a quarter of the features that make Dominions series superb and creative fantasy games. MTW:2 will be prettier yes, will have nicer sounds etc. but Dominions series will be the massive fantasy game where your aim is godhood, and this puts it largely into a niche.

[Leif_-]

Mltdwn said:
I don't know, as a Strat fan I have to agree it is a bit high for even my blood.



So don't buy it. It's really that simple. Dominions is certainly a niche game -- heck, these days it's almost a niche inside a niche -- and unless the "nicheness" has extra value for you then Dominions III isn't worth $55 to you. To me that niche has a lot of value, which is why, for me, Dominions III is worth $55 and Medieval 2: Total War is not worth £30.

Is Dominions III an expensive game? Yes, it is. Is it worth $55? It is to some of us. It won't be for many others. Is it too expensive? Judging from the pre-orders, it would appear not.

[Nerfix]

What Leif said.

[JaydedOne]

Mltdwn said:
I see your point Jayd.. My whole problem is while I like the idea of Dom3... It doesn't really strike me as worth the money when another company is providing essentially the EXACT same game in most respects, with higher production values, more gameplay options, and have made a fortune off of 4x games and proven it is anything but a "niche" market with reasonable prices... Basically what I am saying is with the competition releasing the same game in a month with all of those added abilities and production values for a lower price point what makes Dom3 worth it as it adds nothing different really (other than sprite based ground combat you can't control) to the gameplay.



I guess I don't follow. You say it's the "same game" but earlier you mention that it comes sans the magic/random maps system. Putting aside how fun it is to be able to play with the random maps (I made a random map today and started playing with the map editor to make it a fun custom game scenario), the magic system IS Dominions. It's kind of like saying Dominions is a fantasy-themed Civilization without the technology tree. I like Civ a lot and love learning technologies, so I wouldn't buy Dominions if that was the primary draw of the game for me.

On the other hand, I love magic and fantasy-based games. I also love the hands-off strategic element of battle in Dominions that rewards planning as opposed to twitch. I also love supporting small devs who patch often and do their best to encourage modding in their creative and motivated community. I'm sure you can find things to sell me on where M2:TW is involved. But I don't so much see how we're not talking apples and oranges here.

[Mltdwn]

OK answer me this, what features and abilities does Dom3 add that M2TW doesn't? I'm trying to compare the two and decide which I should invest my money into because other than the "magic" aspect I really can't see what Dom3 brings to the table that is different or better... From what I understand the diplomatic functioning is much more limited due to being primarily a go to war with everyone game, the politics aspect is largely non-existant due to the nature of the game (as opposed to having to deal with the Church, the various other nobles, Crusades, Jihads, Briberies, assassinations, etc.), and the combat is largely more of simply choose the right groups and outnumber the enemies hoping for good enough "rolls" rather than being able to use actual tactics like flanking, luring, ambushes, etc.

Basically what makes Dom3 "better" in terms of features and gameplay?

[Archonsod]

From the sounds of it MTWII has more fantasy elements than Dominions already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


I have to ask when the last time YOU bought a video card considering they are up ~$200 for a midline one



Last month. Your missing the point though - if I want to see how much I can push it, I'll load up Oblivion, Farcry or similar, not Dominions. To be honest, if all I wanted was a good looking picture on the screen you can download any number of graphical benchmarking demo's which are ten times prettier than anything the games market is likely to produce for a while. Thing is, I buy games to play, if all I wanted was to watch the eye candy I'd just put a DVD on.

edit:


basically what makes Dom3 "better" in terms of features and gameplay?



Kinda depends on you.Personally I don't like the total war series all that much.
Although you did offer your own argument - if you bought Dom 3 now, by the time you can afford Medieval 2 it'll likely have dropped in price...

[Leif_-]

Mltdwn said:
OK answer me this, what features and abilities does Dom3 add that M2TW doesn't?



Where to start. Actually, I won't even try. I suggest you wait for a few days until they demo version is ready and try it out for yourself. It's quite possible the game won't be to your liking, but I can promise you that it will be an entirely different game than M2TW.

[GamerMan12]

I know he is being really obvious about promoting another game and they are usually subtle, but even so I still think Mltdwn is likely to be a Guerilla Marketer.

GM12

[Taqwus]

Shogun:TW would have been more interesting if

- it didn't require very particular and sometimes quite dated drivers when played with an nVidia card
- it didn't completely break when I upgraded to Win2K from 98
- it allowed the disabling of the extremely absurd geisha super-assassins
- the AI didn't blatantly cheat with respect to knowing what your moves where going to be when it "simultaneously" planned its orders, getting information that was -impossible- for the human to get through any amount of spying
- one could both build and recruit in the same province at the same time
- cavalry archers could actually... shoot when moving
- they ever fixed the widely-reported and serious bugs with completely inexplicable routs
- it mattered what direction one attacked a river province from -- even if you attacked a province from ALL SIDES AT ONCE you still all started on the wrong side of the river at defended bridges

But I'll agree that the video sequences were decently well-done, and that the smoke from a simulated mini-Gettysburg with 1600 muskets was impressive, if completely FPS-demolishing at the time.

[Xether]

$55 is like what? £30? Thats average game cost for customers here in the UK. No way is it a rip off. Most these new "games" that devolpers are pumping out are not even worth £5 in my opinion. Abit chuffed theres people whining about the costs of one of the most indepth games ever.

[RonD]

Mltdwn said:
It doesn't really strike me as worth the money when another company is providing essentially the EXACT same game



But that statement couldn't be any less true. Because...


Mltdwn said:
Medieval 2: Total War which is largely the same thing, sans magic



Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to belittle you for not understanding how important magic is to Dominions, because you have to really get into the game to see how important it is.

Magic, the way it is implemented in Dominions, makes all the difference in the world. I do know some people who were looking more for M:TW when they tried Dominions2. They wanted to build big armies of infantry, archers, knights and such. They got quite turned off when their opponent showed up with some powerful summoned creatures backed by mages casting potent battlefield spells, and wiped their "normal" army right off the map. That's OK - M:TW is the game for them, and that's fine.

But for me, the real game, the enormous strategic depth of Dominions comes from the magic. What spells should I research, so as to maximize the impact of my mages? What magic items do I put on that specific commander to either take best advantage of his strengths or cover up for some weakness that my opponent is exploiting? What kinds of creatures should I summon, and what kind would be a waste of resources (because my opponent can easily counter them)? The list of strategic questions goes on and on. Indeed, there is at least one important strategic decision to make very nearly each and every turn (and by late game there are many, many such decisions to make each turn).

It isn't for everyone, but it sure is grand for those that get into it.

[Mltdwn]

GamerMan12 said:
I know he is being really obvious about promoting another game and they are usually subtle, but even so I still think Mltdwn is likely to be a Guerilla Marketer.

GM12



Yup, that's me, a guerilla marketer... Forgive me for wanting to make an "informed" decision based on people with knowledge of the game before spending my hard earned money. I played Dom2, and while I enjoyed it tremendously at first when I came across the TW line it basically turned me off of Dom as it was the same thing done better for the most part with a greater amount of depth in all aspects. Now Dom3 is out, is the price of a triple A X360 title, and doesn't seem to add anything really over Dom2 or the competition; however, that is going solely off of the limited features posted on the site. So I figured, since the game was out already I would ask those who have played it their input as to how it differs from other games in the same vein from an "objective" point of view. While yes I will admit and apoligize for perhaps going about it the wrong way, the question still stands... What does it bring to the table that isn't already out there for less which is of higher quality in production values, features, and gameplay value.

BTW Ron thank you for posting that viewpoint... And that answers alot of questions for me... While I can see the enjoyability in that then I have to say with that being the primary selling point it perhaps isn't the game for me as I like (personally) to simply have more strategic options. And that is just me, you answered alot with that simple statement and thank you.

[Leif_-]

Dominions 3 is basically Dominions 2 supercharged, so if you prefer the Total War games to Dominions 2, I don't see why you're even asking the question. Skip Dominions 3 and buy the next Total War game instead.

[Nerfix]

Mltdwn said:Basically what makes Dom3 "better" in terms of features and gameplay?

MTW:2 is a historical wargame, Dominions 3 is a fantasy game. That's a pretty big difference to begin with. I don't think we can directly compare the two.

In MTW you might get to control the units directly, but in Dominions 3 you have to carefuly plot the battles beforehand. You can't wring your way with what often are cheapo tactical exploits.

In MTW you have to deal with the Popet, Jihads, Briberies etc. In Dominions 3 you have to deal with unrelenting pretender gods.

In MTW you build crossbowmen. In Dominions 3 you build some crossbowmen and some sacred flagellants that can be Blessed, and then you recruit a With Hunter who can cast magic and use priest spells to lead them...you also summon some Fire Drakes as support, and put a gem on the witch hunter so he can cast Flame Arrows to support the crossbowmen. All the while when your enemy will be massing Pale Ones who are tragicaly weak to arrows but he will also bring some Longdead chaff that are however weak to Banishment your Witch Hunter can use...

In MTW you recruit assasins and get heirs. In Dominions 3 you recruit mages and you have to carefuly think where you can use their skills, in or out of battle, will you research Construction spells or Evocations. Or will you instead build some priests to spread your Dominion and banish undead monster. Or perhaps you will recruit a mage and appoint him as your Prophet.

In MTW you pick on of the historical countries and then LOL as your king racks up funny vices. In Dominions you pick one of uncommon fantasy empires it has such as undead with Roman flavour or Indian inspired civilization. Then you design a pretender god who has his or her own weaknesses and effects on the land and how your sacred units will be blessed. Then you LOL as your pretender racks up afflictions, Curse, Horror Marks and such unless you are careful.

And so on. The differences are huge. It's a matter of taste which you will prefer in the end. I've never enjoyed MTW as much as I enjoy Dominions. Perhaps you are my opposite in this respect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[GamerMan12]

Limited features??!! :

* Turn-based fantasy 4X gaming with up to twenty-one (AI or human) players using simultaneous turns.
* Still an amazing amount of player choices in one turn: recruit, research, empowerment, forge, rituals, magic battles, search, prayers, blood hunt, luck, assassinations, friendly movement, movement, storm castle, enchantments, magic items, sneak, build, special orders, income, starvation, upkeep, dominion, site effects, heal, mercs, and scouting.
* Three different eras: Early Magical Era, Middle Era, and Late Era. The Early Magical Era boasts many new nations, the Middle Era features most of the nations from Dominions 2, and the Late Era features an emphasis on more conventional warfare and less magic.
* Fifty different playable nations. Some of the new nations include Ermor, New Faith, based on the early Republic of Rome. Marverni, inspired by Gallic tribes. Kailasa, Rise of the Ape Kings, inspired from Indian and Hindu mythology. Jomon, Human Daimyos, born from ancient Japan.
* Brand new graphics, with an overhauled and streamlined interface. Transparent mechanics decreases
the learning curve.
* Less micromanagement than previous Dominions titles.
* Random map creation.
* Players can design and save gods for later play.
* Map filters now allow players to easily locate scouts.
* Nation specific spells and summons. More than 600 spells and 300 magic items, all with evocative descriptions, are found in the game.
* Rebalanced rates for income, supply, and resources enable larger conventional armies.
* 1500+ units to wage war with. A deep combat model encompasses everything from battlefield morale to the use of magic.
* An already challenging AI made even more challenging. If you can't handle the unrelenting computer player, you can always try your hand at playing against humans with Dominions 3 robust multiplayer suite.
* Much more powerful modding capabilities.
* Make and remake nations as you see fit!
* Still present, the cool ability to turn any image into a map! Battle across Faerún or Middle Earth!
* Choose if your pretending god is dormant or awake when the game begins.
* New music from Erik Ask Uppmark and Anna Rynefors, the duo behind Dominion 2's lilting musical score.
* Taxes and unrest automatically checked through the autotax function, streamlining play.
* Playable on most major operating systems. Play it on a Windows, Mac, or Linux machine.
* Dominions 3: The Awakening could very easily be the last fantasy 4X game you ever need.

GM12

[Nerfix]

Not to mention units can rack up afflictions from battle or old age, get insane etc etc etc. So much features... >:3

[JaydedOne]

Mltdwn said:
OK answer me this, what features and abilities does Dom3 add that M2TW doesn't? I'm trying to compare the two and decide which I should invest my money into because other than the "magic" aspect I really can't see what Dom3 brings to the table that is different or better... From what I understand the diplomatic functioning is much more limited due to being primarily a go to war with everyone game, the politics aspect is largely non-existant due to the nature of the game (as opposed to having to deal with the Church, the various other nobles, Crusades, Jihads, Briberies, assassinations, etc.), and the combat is largely more of simply choose the right groups and outnumber the enemies hoping for good enough "rolls" rather than being able to use actual tactics like flanking, luring, ambushes, etc.

Basically what makes Dom3 "better" in terms of features and gameplay?



Let's set aside for a moment that all of the tactics you mention are present in the game, albeit not always as a simple button that you press. We're not here to convince you that Dom3 is a "better" game. As I said, it's apples and oranges and I'd laugh off anyone who tried to sell me Civilization on the premise that it was a "better" game than Dominions.

Play the demo. See if you think it's worth the price. If it is, I'll play a game with you and talk it over here. If not, then perhaps you'll have better luck with M2.

Cheers either way.

[Taqwus]

Among the more obvious differences are the heavy multiplayer and the pre-battle formations and scripting (think about it: tactical battles do not make sense in a 21-player game).

There are a *lot* of battlefield tactics which emerged for D2, many of which required significant preparation to be able to use in terms of mage selection, troop selection, magic items, and research, in addition to the obvious pre-battle assignment of orders and unit placement. Hell, there's everything from mass-exploding (Phoenix Pyre'd) reinvigorating Communicants to flying armies and storm/lightning-zapping the battlefield, to mass enslavement and super-combatants.

In terms of strategic depth, there's supply contraints (including a high-level abstraction of supply lines through the fortress contribution traced through friendly provinces), -substantial- research that offers lots of variety...

[Mltdwn]

OK let me ask this question then and thanks for all of the input... Does the game essentially come down to (like in Dom2) wipe out all of the opponents to be the victor, OR is there other win options you can accomplish (i.e. Control 50 provinces which must include provinces x, y and Z...) plus the ability to enter into diplomatic relations with other nations/gods in an attempt to subvert their or other gods powers (i.e. making a deal of say "ok I'll open trade with you IF you go to war and begin attacking this other nation), stuff like that or does it largely come down to just wipe out the opposition?

Edit: Essentially what I am inquiring is this, does it esentially come down, like Dom2 to a brute force type game?

[Nerfix]

There's other win options, at least in Dom 2 there was.

If I remember correctly these options were:
- Total conquest OR victory by eradicating all enemy Dominion
- Research victory
- Victory through control of victory points
- Victory through dominion
- Victory through getting a certain number of provinces

And the victory conditions don't exclude each other, you could eradicate everybody in a research victory game and win.

You can't enter diplomatic relations. If this a game breaker for you, then it is.

[Archonsod]

I don't think there is a game similar to Dominions. The only thing I can see MTW and Dom3 having in common is the fact that you spend your turn moving on the strategy map, then have a battle at the end of it. But then, the same thing can be said of Rise of Nations or Cossacks 2, and both are radically different from total war.

One thing to consider though - since Shrapnel are unlikely to lower the price, it makes sense to get Dom3 now. Not only is MTWII likely to be half price in the January sales, but your likely to be able to pick it up with the inevitable expansion for less than you'll pay on day of release.

[Endoperez]

The victory conditions have existed since DomII (control 50 provinces, control 3 spesific provinces, etc), but they currently can't be combined (control at least 50 provinces AND 3 spesific provinces). That would be a nice addition, though.

There is some really simple diplomatic-style stuff (e.g. if you have strong forces where an AI can see, he's less likely to attack you), but winning the games under the settings most often used fall down to conquering provinces, with armies, mages and/or ritual spells.

[Taqwus]

Might be noted that if you're playing at extremes in the dominions scale or there's a big difference in temples / preaching / Skeptics, it's possible for the dominion leader to not be the leader in military power.

[Cainehill]

Someone has previously posted that this time, cumulative victory point conditions are supported. IE, if 4 provinces have a single VP each, and 100 cumulative VPs are required, holding all 4 provinces for 25 turns would win; holding 1 for 100 turns would also win, if no one else accumulated VPs as quickly.

Expect it'll add quite a bit of strategic considerations, not to mention helping to propel a much quicker game pace. Currently, games get into wars of attrition - if 3 nations remain, each with 12 VPs, and 30 are required to win, the game situation can get stagnant, and could still continue another 100 turns with no winner in sight.

With cumulative VP condition, every turn someone has VP provinces brings the game nearer to the conclusion, and can force attacks : I have 12 VPs, he only has 10, _but_ he only needs 19 VP points to win and I need 25. If I don't take some of his VPs _now_, he wins.

[Talleyrand]

Well, my thread has been hijacked lol and I think we've hammered this beast to death. Thank you all for the discussion and handling an opposing viewpoint in a mature way. I'm still not entirely sold but I'm definitely more open to the possibility of paying a little extra for a good, niche game if it's worth it. I'll just try the demo when it gets released and make an informed decision then. If anything I hope this thread has made the upper brass at Shrapnel rethink their business model, if even for a second, because in my opinion (and as ill-informed as that may be) a niche game only reaches a niche market if you let it. With the Dominions series there is much room for growth.

Cheers.

[DominionsFan]

Mltdwn said:
OK answer me this, what features and abilities does Dom3 add that M2TW doesn't? I'm trying to compare the two and decide which I should invest my money into because other than the "magic" aspect I really can't see what Dom3 brings to the table that is different or better... From what I understand the diplomatic functioning is much more limited due to being primarily a go to war with everyone game, the politics aspect is largely non-existant due to the nature of the game (as opposed to having to deal with the Church, the various other nobles, Crusades, Jihads, Briberies, assassinations, etc.), and the combat is largely more of simply choose the right groups and outnumber the enemies hoping for good enough "rolls" rather than being able to use actual tactics like flanking, luring, ambushes, etc.

Basically what makes Dom3 "better" in terms of features and gameplay?



How can you compare Doms 3. with M2TW?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
These games are totally different.
Btw I will buy M2TW also.

[Warhammer]

Mltdwn said:
Or I could simply wait one more month and getting Medieval 2: Total War which is largely the same thing, sans magic/random maps but has far better graphics, and realistic ground battles with 10k+ men on the field per side which you can actually control that takes everything into account just like in real life (with some exceptions with playability). And a relativly deep political/diplomatic interplay (compared to the Dom series) between all of the nations allowing you to turn nations against one another, play all the sides, etc., rather than simply "must destroy everyone" like in Dom3. AND pay only ~$40 for them. Not to mention the mods which will add the fantasy elements to it, like the already released Middle-Earth mod for R:TW.

And as for discount games, yes I bought EVERY single TW game when they hit the bargain bin and I STILL play all 3 of them and their expansions to this day on a fairly frequent basis. M2 is going to be the first I buy on release day because of CA's production values.



Wow....

That is all I can really say.

First, most of the battlefields in any of the TW games are not realistic based upon the scales that they are representing.

Second, commanders in any of the timeframes that TW models had very little effective control over their troops once the battle was joined, the only exception to this might have been Shogun.

Third, it still amazes me that people think that the battle results or the diplomacy in any of the TW series are realistic. I never had a game of TW where at anything on their most difficult level became anything OTHER than me against the world.

After the first Shogun, which really was a good game although there were plenty of "features" which ruined the game for me once it got to the end game, the other games in the series were not that great from a gameplay standpoint. They looked pretty, but I never played either R:TW or M:TW much after the first week.

[PDF]

Leif_- said:
Dominions 3 is basically Dominions 2 supercharged, so if you prefer the Total War games to Dominions 2, I don't see why you're even asking the question. Skip Dominions 3 and buy the next Total War game instead.



I'd just be doing the reverse, fed up with TW, whose motto could be "more whizbang less interesting gameplay with each iteration" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif !

[Humer]

Talleyrand: I say take a dive and buy it instead of trying the demo. Take your money's worth out of it and if you decide the game's not for you - sell it. I don't think you have any trouble getting rid of your copy, the retail price being on the high side.

That's what I did with Dominions:PPP. Well, except the part that I didn't want to get rid of it. They would've had to pry it out my cold, dead fingers to get my copy. Same thing with Dominions 2.

Oh, and you get a top community to go with your game.

It's just not the same with only a demo.

[Neophyte]

Part of the value (for me) that Dom3 comes with is multi-platformability without loss of features (iirc, Oblivion was "dumbed down" to accomadate the console people). Granted, I have other hobbies than computer gaming and do not have the most current knowledge of the computer gaming industry. However, I feel safe in thinking that Dom3 is in the vast, vast minority of games that get released with Win / Linux and Mac distributions at market release all in the same distribution. Dom2 even had a Solaris executable.

To this end, I bought Dom2 before being sure I liked it to support Linux gaming development. (Please don't tell KO that I am currently playing Dom2 on Windows... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

This multi-platformability is way more than the big manufacturers provide with their supposed bigger and better resources. And when the big mfg's do provide multi-platformability, they often force the consumer to buy a separate instance of the game for each platform. Why should I have to buy a separate copy of a game to play on my Linux machine when I already possess a license to run the game and will only be playing on the Linux machine xor the Windows machine? In this respect, multi-platformability, Dom3 has the bigger mfg's beat hands down.

I do agree that the pricing for Dom2 could have come down a bit, especially after Dom3 development was announced.

As for graphics, I want be able to play the game on my notebook, which does not have graphics upgradability. I got stiffed on this by Civ4. A turn-based strategy game, in my opinion, should at the very least have an "ugly mode" to allow for dated graphics cards. Civ4 has nowhere near the price per unit time spent playing value (for me) as games with limited replay such as the KOTOR series for just this reason.

[Unwise]

I find it interesting that no one has really brought up the one aspect of the Dominions games that have made it such a long-running favorite with my buddies and me: the fact that we don't have to be on-line at the same time to play it.

Seriously -- my pals work different shifts (occasionally on different continents), and the ability to download the data from the server, plan out your turn on a bus or airplane somewhere and then upload it for the nightly turn-running is absolutely spectacular. There is no way that any significant number of us could get on-line daily and resolve a RTS-style battle... at least not on a long-term basis.

We've had Dominions games that have lasted months. Actually, I don't think we've had a game that has NOT lasted at least a month. We send elaborate messages to one another spelling out in horrific detail what we will do to someone's lawn if they even *think* about taking that coastal province from us, and on at least one occasion a $50 bottle of scotch was the bounty for a joint sneak-attack on Vanheim.

No way we could do that with a 'Total War' game.

[BigJMoney]

I also cannot believe M:TW is being used as a comparison. I won't even go into how much the developers are screwing up THAT strategy game (although, now that I've read some of Tim's posts here, I can maybe see that they are trying to save their necks, financially), but I will mention the glaring fact that game doesn't even support strategic multiplayer. I will say this again, M:TW is not a multiplayer strategy game. Dominions is a very good single player game, but at the heart of it is a very, very, very good multiplayer strategy game.

By the way, when you get M:TW2 can you come here and discuss it some in an OT thread? I'm curious about that game, but not curious enough to shell out $$. I fear those developers missed their chance to cater to niche players and are forced to make their games more mainstream compliant with every succession.

=$=

[alexti]

marc420 said:
$55 is a very high price for a game. That price will certainly effect my decision whether to buy or not.


Where are you? Here in Canada, a lot of games are more expensive. USD 55 seems to be about an average price for the game, probably even a bit lower than average.

[alexti]

Archonsod said:
Thanks to the exchange rate, Dominions actually cost me considerably less than the majority of mainstream games. Of course, with the p&p costs it was back on equal terms...


Ok, now try to add to it hours you'll spend playing it (using formula time=money). You'll probably see that Dominions actually costs you something in 5 digits http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saxon]

Talley,

Thanks for bringing this up, it was good to discuss this and let opposing views be heard. As Gandalf says, you can not expect to get much support on a forum associated with the game, but that does not mean your views do not have value.

I too will be waiting for the demo before making a decision.

On a lighter note, I know how Shrapnel can bring down their costs. Move the operation here to Kenya! We have very cheap labour, skilled computer and marketing people and an excellent postal system. And I can drive over and get a copy of Dom3, avoiding the shipping and handling costs…

[Boron]

Talleyrand said:
Well, my thread has been hijacked lol and I think we've hammered this beast to death. Thank you all for the discussion and handling an opposing viewpoint in a mature way. I'm still not entirely sold but I'm definitely more open to the possibility of paying a little extra for a good, niche game if it's worth it. I'll just try the demo when it gets released and make an informed decision then. If anything I hope this thread has made the upper brass at Shrapnel rethink their business model, if even for a second, because in my opinion (and as ill-informed as that may be) a niche game only reaches a niche market if you let it. With the Dominions series there is much room for growth.

Cheers.



Do not try the demo!!!!
Afaik it is probably done in the same way as the Dom2-Demo, 40 turn limit, research limit at level 4, only a handful of nations playable etc. etc..

So in the demo Dominions doesn't really shine, because in the demo it feels not really different from other turn based games because of the limitations.
As an expert player you could of course do lots of tricks in these 40 turns, but if you are new and have never played Dom in MP you will simply play it like Homm or AoW and easily overlook that Dominions is much deeper than those games.

I think the dom2 demo is one of the 10 worst demos i ever played. The dom1 demo on the other hand was done extremely well imho.

This is only my subjective opinion though, but imho if the Dom3 demo is done like the Dom2 demo it will convince more ppl to not buy Dom3 as it convinces ppl to buy Dom3.

[Nerfix]

Dom1 demo was way too limitless. People would DL the demo and never bother with the full game.

[Boron]

Nerfix said:
Dom1 demo was way too limitless. People would DL the demo and never bother with the full game.


Nah. Your best national mage was unpurchaseable, and research was capped at level 5.

Imho there was enough incentive left to buy the full version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Nerfix]

IMHO there wasn't.

[DominionsFan]

Boron said:

Talleyrand said:
Well, my thread has been hijacked lol and I think we've hammered this beast to death. Thank you all for the discussion and handling an opposing viewpoint in a mature way. I'm still not entirely sold but I'm definitely more open to the possibility of paying a little extra for a good, niche game if it's worth it. I'll just try the demo when it gets released and make an informed decision then. If anything I hope this thread has made the upper brass at Shrapnel rethink their business model, if even for a second, because in my opinion (and as ill-informed as that may be) a niche game only reaches a niche market if you let it. With the Dominions series there is much room for growth.

Cheers.



Do not try the demo!!!!
Afaik it is probably done in the same way as the Dom2-Demo, 40 turn limit, research limit at level 4, only a handful of nations playable etc. etc..

So in the demo Dominions doesn't really shine, because in the demo it feels not really different from other turn based games because of the limitations.
As an expert player you could of course do lots of tricks in these 40 turns, but if you are new and have never played Dom in MP you will simply play it like Homm or AoW and easily overlook that Dominions is much deeper than those games.

I think the dom2 demo is one of the 10 worst demos i ever played. The dom1 demo on the other hand was done extremely well imho.

This is only my subjective opinion though, but imho if the Dom3 demo is done like the Dom2 demo it will convince more ppl to not buy Dom3 as it convinces ppl to buy Dom3.



Nah I think the Doms 2. demo was cool. It gave you nice examples about the final game content. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Personally I also wish it had more turns in it but I think the Dom3 demo is testable. It has the same limits as Dom2, but with added features such as the tutorial. We will need to see how well it does its job.

Oh and I agree that the Dom1 demo was abit too much playability but on the other hand thats not that unusual for a first-release game.

[Mltdwn]

BigJMoney said:
I also cannot believe M:TW is being used as a comparison. I won't even go into how much the developers are screwing up THAT strategy game (although, now that I've read some of Tim's posts here, I can maybe see that they are trying to save their necks, financially), but I will mention the glaring fact that game doesn't even support strategic multiplayer. I will say this again, M:TW is not a multiplayer strategy game. Dominions is a very good single player game, but at the heart of it is a very, very, very good multiplayer strategy game.



Ok the only thing I will say about the MP aspect is this... I, like ~95% of the strat gaming community, do not play MP (http://forums.stardock.com/?forumid=162&aid=98074), I would rather have challenging AI with deep gameplay and various ways to achieve the same goal (i.e. being able to play two different nations off against one another whil selling each weaponary and supplies, and then using the money they are paying me to get rebel nations/states to secretly come over to my side and hitting them both when they are at their weakest rather than just turtling up and focusing up on military domination, or research) and the like, and then if MP is thrown in on top of that cool. That's just me, and I am DLing the Dom3 demo to see if perhaps it may be something that I will enjoy, but given the depth of upcoming games (i.e. GalCivII Expansion, SEV, etc.) it is going to be hard justifying spending ~$77 for a game including shipping when I can purchase other games for cheaper in the stores themselves or buy online with a DL package.

[Archonsod]

alexti said:
Ok, now try to add to it hours you'll spend playing it (using formula time=money). You'll probably see that Dominions actually costs you something in 5 digits http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Unless I install it on one of the boxes at work, in which case I start earning money http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PDF]

Mltdw,
Do you live in Tien Chi or such ? Dom3 delivery to Europe cost me less than 10 bucks, total should be < 65$ isn't it ??

[Cainehill]

Playing a first game in the demo, I agree that the interface has seen a number of upgrades, and it definately looks like the new nations will once again provide lots of variety and play styles.

But - disappointments as well. You still can't see what afflictions a unit has without right-clicking it - many of us were hoping for mouseover information so we could quickly figure out which troops were crippled and which merely scratched, but instead it's the same micromanagement for wounded troops. You can't seem to hide researchers from the commanders as you could in Dom2 (hopefully this will be fixed via an early patch).

SP AI is still disappointing. Nations _still_ declare war on human players before they can possibly have seen them, and the AI is still very lacking in judgement. Watching a battle in which Abysia sends their prophet (simple Warlord) and 5 infantry against 60-70 barbarians led to very predictable results, as the barbarians killed all troops and quickly dispatched the heroic Prophet as he continued to Smite after all troops were gone.

So, once again it looks like a game only seriously played in MP mode. And it looks like it needs another Conceptual Balance right out of the gate, as many Pretender chassis's are once again unbalanced - for example, the Witch King still has 20 point magic paths, just like stock unmodded Dom2 where it was one of the handful of no-brainer pretenders.

Then there's the minor things, like it still defaulting to "Renaming Turned Off", when 99% of the MP games I've been in have wanted renaming on, and people posted time and again asking for this simple change, mostly after getting to turn 3-10 in an MP game and realizing with horror that renaming accidently didn't get turned on.

Suspect I'm still glad I ordered last night before the demo came out - but I'm not as delighted as I thought I would be.

[Mltdwn]

PDF said:
Mltdw,
Do you live in Tien Chi or such ? Dom3 delivery to Europe cost me less than 10 bucks, total should be < 65$ isn't it ??



No in the US it is $15 for priority delivery (i.e. so you don't have to wait 1-2 weeks to get the game).

[Nerfix]

True, there could be some more features, but why don't you suggest them?

[Annette]

Mltdwn said:

PDF said:
Mltdw,
Do you live in Tien Chi or such ? Dom3 delivery to Europe cost me less than 10 bucks, total should be < 65$ isn't it ??



No in the US it is $15 for priority delivery (i.e. so you don't have to wait 1-2 weeks to get the game).



In the US you do have the option to pay for USPS Express Mail. That service carries a money back guarantee to *most* locations. Be sure to check www.usps.com (http://www.usps.com) for guarantees to your specific zip code. And please remember the guarantee is for the time the shipment is in transit. Choosing express shipping does not impact when we ship the game.

Clearly, we recommend the FREE shipping option we offer. This service is USPS Priority Mail. While it does not carry a money-back guarantee, the vast majority are delivered in two days. A package we sent from North Carolina to California on Friday had been delivered on Monday. In fact, we have received word that packages we sent Friday to destinations in France and the UK were delivered yesterday. Those were sent USPS Global Priority Mail, not express.

These quotes from another thread in the forum from customers who chose our free shipping option:
NTJedi said:

My Dominions_3 game was sent Monday and arrived Wednesday(yesterday). I also live in Arizona just to give others an idea of when they can expect their package to arrive.




This one was posted yesterday, Wednesday)
Taqwus said:
My order -- shipped Monday morning -- has arrived in the Bear Republic via USPS. Spiffy.



Hear the passion in my voice? Take advantage of the FREE shipping option in the US. In the past we've used all types of shippers. USPS by far has the most reliable service. Unless something extremely unusual happens, your order will reach you in two or three days from the time we ship (and remember the post office delivers on Saturday). And this service does not cost anything above the purchase price of the game. We don't send ANY of our shipments via the slower services offered by USPS.

(Perhaps I've been spending too much time in the fulfillment center this week...)

[DominionsFan]

Actually I've only played 1 game in the demo against the AI [the rest was MP], but the AI did very good. I've never seen such a huge AI army in a strategical position in Doms 2. Like I've said earlier, it moved ~700 troops to my border province, and it was the only land province in that area. I was fighting on south, so it was a ehm... a big surprise. That army easily took 2 of my provinces in the north. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif
The game just ended after that.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont find that the AI automatically declares war. I have played many games on really large maps with 78 AI's. I do not get war challenged on me by all of them early in the game so I dont think thats a true statement.

However.. I do find that the AI challenges based on your dominion touching his, his scouts seeing you (and some scouts fly), or seeing you by spells.

[DominionsFan]

Gandalf Parker said:
I dont find that the AI automatically declares war. I have played many games on really large maps with 78 AI's. I do not get war challenged on me by all of them early in the game so I dont think thats a true statement.

However.. I do find that the AI challenges based on your dominion touching his, his scouts seeing you (and some scouts fly), or seeing you by spells.



Gandalf, since you are mainly playing SP games, let me ask you. Have you seen such huge AI armies in your games so far, what I've seen in my game today? Basically it worked like this:

First I've seen like 120 enemy troops. 1 turn later their number was 420 if I remember correctly. 1 more turn, and the number was 700. Then all of the 700 troops began to invade me from north, and my 2 main armies were on the south. The game ended 2 turns after the AI took 2 of my provinces at north. Maybe I was just lucky that I've seen such an action from the AI, but seriously, it was like a human player. First he gathered tons of troops in 3 turns, while my armies were far away, then it began to steamroll me from there. I only had 2 minor armies up there, since I was attacked from 2 directions at south, I had to focus my power there.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive seen armies in the thousands. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But definetly the new gold-rich Dom3 game is going to take some getting used to. And some of the AI settings definetly require that you put some thinking to breaking up his large armies as they are building up.

[DominionsFan]

Gandalf Parker said:
Ive seen armies in the thousands. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But definetly the new gold-rich Dom3 game is going to take some getting used to. And some of the AI settings definetly require that you put some thinking to breaking up his large armies as they are building up.



wow nice, when I get my copy, my first game will be against a couple of impossible AIs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Morkilus]

I've been playing with various aggressive/defensive AI's, and well, the aggressive ones do declare war on you quickly. Like I would hope. One thing new that I've seen (probably due to the prevalance of more relatively powerful priests) is that the AI likes to take at least a couple priests into battle every time. This makes skelly spamming alot less viable, and they always have a source of magic damage for those few tanks you may field. It makes for some exciting magic battles at times.

[Taqwus]

I did see huge armies in Dom 2 as well... but the ones in Dom 3 seem more likely to have heavy use of national troops, rather than generic militia / slingers / et al. I've also been dealing with more assassination attempts.

[Cainehill]

Gandalf Parker said:
I dont find that the AI automatically declares war. I have played many games on really large maps with 78 AI's. I do not get war challenged on me by all of them early in the game so I dont think thats a true statement.

However.. I do find that the AI challenges based on your dominion touching his, his scouts seeing you (and some scouts fly), or seeing you by spells.



Eh - given that Aby declared war on turn 4, and I eventually found there were 8 provinces between our capitols, I'm quite certain that none of those were the case. Abysia isn't known for scrying spells, has no flying scouts other than a solitary hero, and our dominions had no time to even think about touching. Meanwhile, there was only 2 provinces between Ermor's start and I, but he never declared war.

The only remotely plausible explanation is that Abysia started with the Warlike / Offensive AI personality - but it's still crazy (and not in a good way) for AIs to declare war on nations they haven't even had _any_ contact with. As it was, Aby and Kailasa were near neighbors who I watched trade provinces back and forth, yet Aby declares war on me. Stupid.

[JaydedOne]

I'm not sure I get the stupid. In MP, you can declare war on anyone on the map and are aware of all players in the game, even if you don't know their location. If you hate Ermor or whomever enough, go right ahead. So, what's so wrong with the AI deciding to declare war?

[Gandalf Parker]

Where was your scout at the time? Was your scout and his scout together?

Im sure there is some sort of contact but I could see where it might be a "computer stupidity" of not being able to tell that the two scouts dont count as contact.

[Cainehill]

There couldn't have been contact by turn 4, as my scouts hadn't gone far enough in that direction. And Jayded, it makes _no_ sense to declare war on a nation you don't even know the location of. Yes, a player _could_ do it, but it's pointless and stupid, and happens even with score graphs / info off. It's an example of the AI cheating, just as it also managed (in Dom2, and I'm betting Dom3) to target commanders with remote spells long before the AI had made contact to know their location.

It makes the SP game damn near an exercise in irritation, rather than a fun experience.

[alexti]

Mltdwn said:
I, like ~95% of the strat gaming community, do not play MP (http://forums.stardock.com/?forumid=162&aid=98074)



I don't know if you can trust those numbers, but in any case they certainly don't apply to Dominions. The main reason more people don't play MP is that very few games implement MP properly. Most of strategy games are hard to do in one sitting and arranging time to continue is a nightmare. That's not the case with Dominions and playing against live opponents is more challenging than vs AI.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well I dont agree.

If what you said was true then I would have 50 nations declaring war on me by turn 10. Ive never been challenged by more than a few nations and they were always within a few provinces of me.

[DominionsFan]

alexti said:

Mltdwn said:
I, like ~95% of the strat gaming community, do not play MP (http://forums.stardock.com/?forumid=162&aid=98074)



I don't know if you can trust those numbers, but in any case they certainly don't apply to Dominions. The main reason more people don't play MP is that very few games implement MP properly. Most of strategy games are hard to do in one sitting and arranging time to continue is a nightmare. That's not the case with Dominions and playing against live opponents is more challenging than vs AI.



It is different in Doms, Im pretty sure. I would say at least half of the Doms players are focusing on MP mainly, but hell knows the exact percentage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PDF]

Cainehill said:

There couldn't have been contact by turn 4, as my scouts hadn't gone far enough in that direction. And Jayded, it makes _no_ sense to declare war on a nation you don't even know the location of. Yes, a player _could_ do it, but it's pointless and stupid, and happens even with score graphs / info off. It's an example of the AI cheating, just as it also managed (in Dom2, and I'm betting Dom3) to target commanders with remote spells long before the AI had made contact to know their location.

It makes the SP game damn near an exercise in irritation, rather than a fun experience.



It's a pointless debate : in fact the message "we declare war" makes no sense from a gaming standpoint ! In Dom everyone is *always* at war with everyone else.
So if the message was changed to "we love you and kiss your feet/tentacle/stand/whatever" would you be happier ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Cainehill]

PDF : The pointless declarations of war aren't the real point, although it's just not true that everyone is always at war with everyone. When the AI can have armies on your borders and _not_ attack for 10+ turns, it's not exactly a on a war footing / status.

But the real irration (at least with Dom2, haven't seen it yet with Dom3) is that those irrational declarations of war from nations still 20 provinces away, lead to ranged artillery spells being cast that couldn't possibly be targetted without AI cheating.

[Archonsod]

It could be finding you with scouts. I'm seeing a lot of AI scouts wandering my provinces.

It's almost like a grudge thing. Oceania insisted on declaring war on me every other turn (I was Ulm) despite not being able to see me (and since they were surrounded by Ry'leh I don't see how they could get to me). The occaisional war declaration came in from Sauromantia, but they were next to me.Oceania were eventually crushed by Ry'leh, without ever actually taking action against me.

Mind you, Ry'leh never declared war and spent an inordinate amount of time trying to dream kill my prophet.

[Cainehill]

Archonsod : _NO_ it can't be finding me with scouts. I start _eight_ bloody provinces away, my scouts didn't go that way. Yet it declared war on turn _FOUR_.

For Dog's sake, read the flooding thread!

[Daynarr]

PDF said:
It's a pointless debate : in fact the message "we declare war" makes no sense from a gaming standpoint ! In Dom everyone is *always* at war with everyone else.



That’s not true actually. You are not in automatic war with everyone from turn 1. Also, there is small and subtle 'diplomatic system' (it's a bit of stretch). And those 2 messages that AI can send you have important meaning.

Let me elaborate. When you start game you are in neutral relations with everyone. If you come in contact with another empire, they will not attack you unless you attack them (you declare war that way) or they send you a message that they are declaring war with you (they can attack on the same turn they send message). Assassinations count as attack and declaration of war btw. and so do offensive spells directed at them specifically. When they go to war with you, and there hasn't been any fighting between your 2 nations for a while, an uneasy peace will kick in. How long it takes for it to happen is hard to tell. After that AI may declare war on you again (that is why you may receive multiple war messages from same nation).
If, however, you actually kill enemy pretender a total war comes in place and there will never be peace until one of your nations is completely destroyed. That is why you receive that message when you kill enemy pretender - it means exactly what it says, permanent war.

So, as you can see, there is some simple 'diplomacy system' in game after all. It was the same in Dom2 as well. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell at what diplomatic state you are with another nation other than those messages.

As far as declaring war over the whole map is concerned, AI DOES know whole map. However, AI will build scouts and spies, cast scrying spells or Eyes of the God, and do whatever player is doing in order to get information about the playworld around him. That way AI SIMULATES the need to have scouts and spies although he doesn't really need to. That way you are on more/less even terms with AI regarding scouting. You will spend resources for it and AI will spend resources for it. Because of the fact that AI knows whole map it may happen that you get war declaration from across the map early but it really isn't that much of the problem as AI can't do anything about it that early in game over such distance (it still needs to research offensive spells to cast that far and it still needs gems like you do). After a while such war will turn back into uneasy peace anyway.

Note that amount of PD you have in provinces has effect on how much AI will declare war on you. More PD means more troops and AI does take that into account.

I hope this will make it more clear for you guys.

[DominionsFan]

I don't understand that why should we care that which AI is declaring war and when.
There is no diplomacy in the game, so this is a pointless discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Frostmourne27]

DominionsFan said:
I don't understand that why should we care that which AI is declaring war and when.
There is no diplomacy in the game, so this is a pointless discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Not that we should continue this disscusion much longer - we're REALLY OT - but its not so much that there is no diplomacy (there's a really simple system) but its not really relavant since you can attack anyone, some spells effect everyone, not shared LOS, etc etc and most of all, there is no mutual victory, so you can't do a team game very well, except in MP. But hey, you can't exploit the AI diplomacy like in some games.

[Bloodstar2]

Gandalf Parker said:

Talleyrand said:
As much as I want to support Illwinter and Shrapnel, I can't bring myself to pay a premium for their products, and in that I think we both lose. Am I in the minority? Well that is the million dollar question, isn't it?



You do understand that asking that in the Dominions forum makes it likely that most people will not agree with you?

But even in the usenet strategy forums I had the same conversation. The person there also was not able to swing a majority.

I really do understand your viewpoint. As a player viewpoint I think its valid. But trying to sound like a nice guy talking to the publisher on a peer level, I dont really think so. It has a chance for some gains but I still feel it would be a risky thing for Shrapnel to try with this version of Dominions. This is a major release both for Illwinter and for Shrapnel. Gambling with pricing might not be a very responsible thing for them to do right now.

I wish I was better at math to put this in a formula but I now that you are talking about cutting their profits probably more than half (at least). And I know that it would take twice as many new buyers to make up that difference, much less make a gain above that to make it worthwhile.





Well, I knew that you are biased and not very bright, but you tend to be a liar as well.

I didn't wanted to swing a majority on Usenet. I just BTW. bought the game.

But, I reserve my right to say a few words ABOUT THE PRICE.

PRICE IS SET TOO HIGH. PERIOD. All arguments that I have read are in vain.

It is clear fact that Shrapnel was carried away a little bit.

I bought Dominion 2 at 50 US$ and 3 $ postage to Europe. Now is 55 $ and 9.35 US$ postage... great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Now, if someone wants to buy me, a regular customer, go ahead....

But, I will say few words about the price. 55$ is too high price, argument that you will spend 1000 hours playing it blah, you will spend 1000 hours playing Heroes 5 as well. Maybe some argument is there about size of the manual (I still wait for the game to arrive).

Argument that game will sell less and crying how this is niche game is of no interest to us, regular paying customers! Mind you, I deeply believe that this game should be priced at 40 US$-45$ top. 50$ is also too high, and 55$ way too much.

Matrix Games is also inflating their games like TOAW 3 for 40 US$, a almost same game from 2000. AD. and full of bugs (COW is better).

So, I give Shrapnel THUMBS DOWN on setting this game and also to developer also THUMBS DOWN because they should be aware that price is set too high.

You just got BIG reputation down in my eyes. Yes, I bought the game but next time I won't if this greedy politics at Shrapnel will continue.

Thank you for listening.


Mario

[Annette]

Hello Mario,

May I be the first to welcome you to our forums. You certainly do have the right to state your opinion about the price or any other issue regarding the game or our company. You also have the right to disagree with another forum member. You do not, however, have the right to make accusatory statements about another forum member. This is not usenet. This is our company's forums where we expect participants to treat each other with a measure of respect. There is a link at the top of this page called "board rules". I ask that you read it. I am happy to see you here, but I have to ask that you "play nice." It's what we expect of all our members.

As to your post, there are several interesting discussions on various boards about this issue. I think I'd like to hear your impressions once you've received the game and play it a bit to see if your opinion remains the same. And we do thank you for your order and the vote of confidence it portrays. You've been a supporter of our developers in the past, and we're happy to hear your constructive feedback.

[Valandil]

O for a muse of euphemisms, that would ascend the highest peaks of human invetion: a forum for a stage, pretenders as players: can yet this facade obscure the vast human disregard?

[Bloodstar2]

Thank you Annete,

I am sorry for harsh words and I will reply with my view of this situation later. I will be nice and not use any ugly word.

Yes, I have supported Shrapnel in the past and would like that this would be in the future.


Mario

[PhilD]

Bloodstar2 said:

PRICE IS SET TOO HIGH. PERIOD. All arguments that I have read are in vain.




OK, if this is the axiom, then you are most certainly right; it does follow that the price is set too high. Doesn't leave much room for discussion, though.

There are several possible definitions for a price. For a PC game, I'd say that "player entertainment" should be a major factor in deciding what a "right" price should be. I think it's safe to assume that players won't play a PC game much longer than it provides entertainment (or else, something is definitely wrong with them). Thus, the time one spends playing a given game is a reasonable factor in deciding whether the price is "right" (though absolutely not the only one).

If you intend to spend the same amount of time playing Heroes V as Dom3, then weigh them against each other in "entertainment per hour"; if you get more enjoyment per hour with Heroes V, then maybe your best game for this time is Heroes V, and there is nothing wrong with that. I bought it, played each campaign once, and basically lost interest. I don't consider my money badly spent, but if Dom2 is any indication, I expect to get much more playing time out of Dom3 than Heroes V.

[Meglobob]

The price is set too high?

Not if u live in the UK. Over here, a new release at the top end of the price range is 29.99 - 34.99 pounds. Dom 3 cost 34.10 pounds, that included the USPS delivery charge. So at the top end of the bareable market price but not over.

Considering the sheer depth of the game, I have really only scratched the surface of 2 nations yet, its well worth every pound or $.

U r buyin a top quality product with Dom 3, u always have to pay for quality.

[Talleyrand]

I've put in an order for the full game, which says a lot considering my earlier posts on the matter. I played the demo a great deal and enjoyed my time with it. However, I still agree with Mario and my original assessment that the game is not worth 55 dollars. One major reason is the animations in battle are extremely choppy and units seems to warp to and fro. If battles weren't such a central theme in the game, ie you could win through other means, it wouldn't bother me so much. As it stands though, battles are the only way to win and as such I think more time could have been taken in unit animations to make things more fluid.

The music, however, is top notch. I can't stay enough good things about it. The number of unique countries and their individual histories and cultures is also pretty amazing, and kudos to Illwinter for coming up with them. That together with the number of spells and items, plus the knowledge from Dominions 2 that the price would never fall, made me go ahead and put in an order now. Like Mario though I have little respect for Shrapnel games and will never go out of my way to support them as publishers, ever. Domonions 3 and possibly whatever game Illwinter decides they will create next will get my money but nothing else Shrapnel supports will I look at. I helped you guys with your porche payments this month but you're on your own for the next months.

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, thanks for the positive feedback on Dråm and Illwinters behalf, but I must say that I find your dislike for shrapnel somewhat confusing. You disrespect them for raising the price tag by 5 dollars. The difference in the maual is actually worth more than that. Take my word on it. I wrote the old one (or most of it). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So if you dislike Shrapnel I think it is better if you don't say that in this way on their forums. Be constructive instead. Say that you will not buy games with price tags that high, instead of saying that you won't by from Shrapnel because you think thay suck. The first might make them listen, the other might ban you from their forum. I would not be too fond of you if I was the target in your post.

[DominionsFan]

Personally I still say, that if someone refuse to pay 55$ [which is a ridicolously small amount of money] to buy the best TBS available..it is too bad...for HIM! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Frostmourne27]

Hmmmm... who was it that said "anything is worth what the market will pay for it"?

Dominions 3 may be priced more highly than many of us think is really reasonable, especially for a small game, but they aren't the market. Neither are those of use who think it's a good deal. The market is everyone that could conceivably consider purchasing the game (that includes us, but there are WAY more than the couple hundred or so people that lair within these forums.) Dominions 3 set records with shrapnel sales for number of copies sold. Not knowing how big the market is, its hard to say what percent of people that looked at/will look at it bought it, but since so many did, and the market isn't HUGE, as this is a bit of a niche game, it kind of makes me think that most people that consider buying the game either buy it, or don't because they don't like the demo/the combat/the concept etcetera.

I seriously doubt the many of the thousands of people who will buy the game will really give the price a whole lot of consideration. Either it's a good game and they buy it, or it's a piece of EA-like trash and they won't - for most people, you need to change the price quite a lot before they actually don't buy something. Going the other way, you don't have to change the price quite as much maybe, but you lose a LOT of money.

Now for some ugly, unpleasant mathematics (Yuck!):
Assuming that Shrapnel sells three thousand copies of Dominions 3(I'm pulling numbers out of the air here, I think the real figure is a LOT higher) at 55$, they make 165 000 dollars less expenses, including the insane cost of printing the 300 page manual (printing is a VERY lucrative business). If they [Shrapnel Games] lower the price even one dollar, the make only 162 000 dollars -they need to sell 56 extra copies to recoup their loss of profit. But now one cares about one dollar - So let's say that they lower prices by ten dollars. Are they going to find the 666.66 new buyers they need to make it worth it? Possibly, but I really doubt it. Whether or not the game is good value for its price as compared to other purchases is irrelevant - Shrapnel is making money, and we can hardly expect them to be stupid - they should maximize their profits since that’s how the western style free market economy works.
However, if time spent enjoying your self per cent spent is your concern, I say two things: 1) You care too much about economics, and 2) Dominions 3 probably isn't worth it, but I doubt that ANY computer games really are. Bloodstar, I REALLY doubt that anyone will spend 1000 hours playing Heroes 5 - that’s like three hours a day, FOR EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR! (Do you have a life? A family? a job? Do you sleep?) That said, I doubt anyone will play Dominions 3 for 1000 hours either. And about the manual - we really should shut up about it. No offence to Bruce, but really - were buying a game, not a book. It's nice to have a good manual, BUT ITS NOT A SELLING POINT! Very few people look at two strategy games and say Oooo- this one has a nicer manual, I think I'll take it. Evidence: EA sells games, and their manuals, like their games, are crap.

Sorry if my tone is a little offensive, and my thoughts incoherent...

[Talleyrand]

Thanks for your concern, Kris, but I don't care much for Shrapnel's fondness of me. I call it like I see it. If I get banned, then fare thee well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Valandil]

There is actually another concern. In order to expand the market, therby allowing more future buisness, and in order to retain the existing consumer base, shrapnel also needs to price slightly below optimal return. Of course this is only true if illwinter/shrapnel continue to make/sell games, but I consider this likely.

[Archonsod]

Why? It's actually slightly cheaper than most new releases, at least in UK pricing. EA don't seem to have a problem selling games at £30, and they're not exactly looking at a shrinking market...

[Kristoffer O]

I would prefer to have you here. I think and hope that you opinions on the game are valuable to us and other players.

[Taqwus]

I'd think that the bigger obstacle to expanding the market is that the target audience is, frankly, quite small. The number of people willing to invest the time and attention necessary to enjoy games of this nature is far, far smaller than the market for more familiar, intuitive, prettier, or shorter instant-gratification games.

You wouldn't expect World in Flames, Advanced Squad Leader or Combat Mission to sell like hotcakes if priced at $10, either. Few people would play them, even if they were free, because it takes a fairly rare bird to enjoy them. For their audience they're quite good, but that audience is small.

[Agrajag]

Frostmourne27 said:
However, if time spent enjoying your self per cent spent is your concern, I say two things:...2) Dominions 3 probably isn't worth it, but I doubt that ANY computer games really are.


Actually, I think that on a time spent enjoying yourself per dollar scale, Dominions 3 will do very very well.
After playing Dominions 2, I'd be surprised if I got less than 55 hours of Dom3 goodness (and I expect much much more, but this number is obviously for example purposes).
For 55 hours of goodness I pay 55$, so that's 1$ for an hour of entertainment, which is much better than paying 5$ for two hours of fun at the movies, or I-don't-know-how-much-but-I-bet-its-more-than-one-dollar dollars for one hour of fun with a prostitute, and yet lots of people do both of those :O
As for Dominions3 VS. other computer games, I think Dominions3 wins by far on the time spent enjoying yourself per dollar scale, there's just so much content to explore that I'd expect several times the time playing Dominions3 than other full priced games (especially EA stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif).


Bloodstar, I REALLY doubt that anyone will spend 1000 hours playing Heroes 5 - that’s like three hours a day, FOR EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR! (Do you have a life? A family? a job? Do you sleep?) That said, I doubt anyone will play Dominions 3 for 1000 hours either.


Alternatively, its about 1 hour per weekday for about 4 years, which doesn't sound that unreasonable. (Though I don't expect anyone but the most hard core to play for 4 years straight with no breaks)


And about the manual - we really should shut up about it. No offence to Bruce, but really - were buying a game, not a book. It's nice to have a good manual, BUT ITS NOT A SELLING POINT! Very few people look at two strategy games and say Oooo- this one has a nicer manual, I think I'll take it. Evidence: EA sells games, and their manuals, like their games, are crap.


Well, I think that a good manual is a selling point, here are some explanations why:
1) As I understand it, there was some complaint regarding the Dom2 manual for not being that good, so an improved manual should make those complainers happier.
2) Dominions is a very complex game, and as such, it needs a thorough manual.
3) The manual is the only difference between a legal copy, and an illegaly obtained copy.
4) Manuals are cool.


Sorry if my tone is a little offensive, and my thoughts incoherent...


That's just the Dreamlands dominion getting to you.

[Nerfix]

Yeah, it's just the Dominion. Ctulhu ftaghn and so on.

[Valandil]

web page (http://www.cthuugle.com/)


Lol!

[DominionsFan]

Valandil said:
web page (http://www.cthuugle.com/)


Lol!



Heh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Bloodstar2]

OK, I obviously have 18 hours working day like Shrapnel today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Listen, let's calm down - I don't want that this become unobjective harrasment of fanboys toward me or anybody who says his opinion. I already have seen this kind of behaviour at Paradox Entertainent boards and Matrix boards. We can tell all our opinion in a civilized way - and hell I don't have intention to argue with hudreds of angry fans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif(

First, I own web shop for selling PC & video games etc... Also I was game journalist for more than ten years, I know all big faces of games industry. No, I am not boasting but my knowledge of game industry is very big.

Dominions 3 is not the game like World of Warctaft for example. I bought some quantities of WoW for selling on my web shop and suddenly Blizzard have lowered the prices of that game so now I am selling this game at 0 profit lol.
So, I am not arguing LOWERING prices of the games now just for the sake of arguing. Dominions 3 is different game than most of retail games and D3 price once set will not go down like Quake 4 etc...

Why I pulled Heroes 5 out? Believe it or not that is main competitor now to Dominions 3!It's TBS, and fantasy. Heroes 5 have some diffenence to Dom 3 - it's big mainstream title but that don't nececary means that it is bad. Quite contrary, Nival, Russian dev., have pulled excellent job, game is even selling with nVidia 7900 cards bundled, graphics is gorgeus and gameplay is excellent.
Now, due to it's nature HOMM 5 is quite expensive game - first Ubi Soft payed 1.3 MILLION US$ just to get rights for now defunct 3DO (ok for whole M&M universe), then game alone costed VERY, VERY MUCH to produce, I think 5-10 million $, marketing and PR cost were also high.

Now what this have to do with Dominions 3 you may ask?

Well, as much as you can argue that Dom 3 is artistic, niche, mumbo jumbo, indie game, small budget, less copies expected to sell etc... BUT! Again, for me it is quite ridiculous and slap in the face of the fans (at least those who can rationally asses this situation) to price this game at 55 $.

Suggestet retail price for HOMM5 is 49.95 $. Many web sites are selling HOMM5 for 40 $ or even as low as 30$!. Now, if you had set price for Dominion 3 to 49.95 $ same like HOMM 5 that is even then higher than HOMM 5 as retail outlets and web shops will have relatively smaller prices on HOMM5.

All, arguing that Shrapnel knows best what price to put, OK, I can agree with that, but that don't means that I must comply with that reasoning and yes I have bought the game but certanly will not do that again if Shrapnel again decide to slap mi in the face.

Even my opinion is here not important - it's important how you treat your fans. I am not attacking Shrapnel and this is quite honest my approach to them so I politely ask that fans cool down and that they don't need to defend Shrapnel. I didn't attacked them, I just have expressed my opinion on this. So, fans cool down please.

I have no objections to pay even 99$ for NEW ORIGINAL DESIGN AND NEW GRAPHICS ETC:.. Of course nobody will charge that much but I have gladly payed 65 $ for Distant Guns game from SES. It is about Russo Japanese war and game that fits my term - niche within a niche. Developers have made a game about obscure war, very brave move, they didn't followed usssual approach Normandy - Bulge - Market Garden that many wargaming companies do.

Dominions 3 is SEQUEL, it is great game I am sure but it is a sequel. Even manual is not excuse to price it at 55$.

Now, you can all disagree with me, I have getting used to Usenet and have thick skin in that regard and I will stick with my opinion.

I will play the game but bitter taste will remain.

But, I will certanly not put my head in the sand and applaud any move that I don't feel it is right. Sorry just cannot do that.

Regards to everyone and no hard feelings ok.


Mario

[DominionsFan]

Bloodstar2 said:
HOMM 5 is quite expensive game - first Ubi Soft payed 1.3 MILLION US$ just to get rights for now defunct 3DO (ok for whole M&M universe), then game alone costed VERY, VERY MUCH to produce, I think 5-10 million $, marketing and PR cost were also high.






I bought that game. I've played it for like 2 weeks only, because it was boring for me. I've never found Doms 2. boring. Interesting isn't it? You cannot compare games, because well all have our subjective opinions [and own experience] about them.

[Nerfix]

A three star new user speaking for all the fans who preordered? LOL. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

And you can't really use the "IT'S A SEQUEL" argument either since every game of the Dominions series has been better than the last one.

Admit it, you just don't want to pay some extra money for it. What's the differnece of price between $40 and €55? The price of couple beer bottles? Some food? Couple miles worth of gas for the car? It's a minimalistic difference!

I and a massive number of people who ordered and preordered the game think that the game is well worth it's price as it is.

Illwinter made this game while their two member team worked on other jobs. I think the other dev had to even find a new job. They are teachers, which is a taxing job in itself. They made the game in their spare time and had to deal with anxious fans. I suppose the fans were anxious for a reason, afterall the game got delayed almost a year.

I doubt Shrapnel is swimming in money either, and that their pricing policy is driven not only by economic realities but also selling out their games at higher price than $5 which seems that many people are ready to pay for.

You seem to think of Shrapnel as some faceless monstrosite which is keeping Illwinter under some jackboot of oppression, or maybe you don't even think of the devs, or the publisher or anything else than just getting the game cheap.

Thing is, we have a two man team who has made a quality came on their spare time, and you come and essenitally say that they don't deserve what's their part of the $55 the game costs?

[Valandil]

Intiate self-deprecating yet vaguely insulting irony:


Its really hard to applaud with your face in the sand. Perhaps the enlightened ones with their faces turned from the earth to the heavens would care to share wisdom with us baseborn mortals?

I referance the following quotations:

1)"I have no objections to pay even 99$ for NEW ORIGINAL DESIGN AND NEW GRAPHICS ETC:."

How many games have had a new design? Heroes FIVE? Civ FOUR? Warcraft THREE? Dominions TWO?

This is the era of the sequel, whether you like it or not.

2) "Now, if you had set price for Dominion 3 to 49.95 $ same like HOMM 5 that is even then higher than HOMM 5 as retail outlets and web shops will have relatively smaller prices on HOMM5."

True enough. Dominions is also a better game. And, oddly enough, more original.

3) "Now what this have to do with Dominions 3 you may ask?"

I may ask it indeed. What does anything here posted have to do with this specific game? is it not a commentary on human falibility and dissatisfaction, shot through with oblique referances to a failing industry?

4 "I already have seen this kind of behaviour at Paradox Entertainent boards and Matrix boards. We can tell all our opinion in a civilized way"

My opinon, which I am entitled to hold and express according to the constitution of my nation and the rights accorded by the UN, is that the mass abuse of fans is just punishment for anyone that posts a thread like this in the dominons forums. I hold up before the jury as evidence the numerous insinuations and outright condescension exhibited in previous posts.

5) "Dominions 3 is SEQUEL, it is great game I am sure but it is a sequel. Even manual is not excuse to price it at 55$."

I reiterate the above: everything is a sequel. There is no such thig as an original anymore.


I dig my pit in the sand and ensconce my head firmly.


/irony



I hope you appreciate that that was a rather ill-concieved joke. You are fully free to express opinions, but doing so on this forum is tantamont to suicide. Much as I hate to be accused of hampering open debate, I submit that the above post was not entirely uncalled for, but that circumstances will compell others to mock it.

[DragonFire11]

I wish that the developers and publisher get well rewarded for their work and creation. They certainly earned my money and more. On a time cost ratio, I think Dom2 cost me 0.000001 cent an hour. Compare that to a movie or golf or drinking at a bar.

[Talleyrand]

Valandil, you are quite the character lol.

[DominionsFan]

DragonFire11 said:
I wish that the developers and publisher get well rewarded for their work and creation. They certainly earned my money and more. On a per minute cost ratio, I think Dom2 cost me 0.000001 cent an hour. Compare that to a movie or golf or drinking at a bar.



Yep. I mean, you spend at least 100$ on a friday night, or in fact usually more.
Dominions fans are playing countless hours with this game, so 55$ is like..nothing?

[Leif_-]

Comparing HOMM5 and Dominions 3 is a folly. They're really entirely different types of games; the only similarities are superficial. Yes, they're both turn-based strategy games, but only in as far as both chess and monopoly are turn-based strategy games.

More importantly HOMM5 has an economy of scale that is wildly beyond anything that Dominions 3 might even aspire to. The two games have completely different economic realities and to decide that Dominions 3 is overpriced because it's more expensive than HOMM5 just makes no sense.

As for getting upset with Shrapnel for pricing it at $55 -- do you really expect them to sell it for a sub-optimal price? They're a business, and they're trying to make money. Can you really begrudge them that fact? (On another note, I'd be extremely surprised if Shrapnel has a higher per-copy profit from Dominions 3 than Ubi Soft has for HOMM5.)

[Bloodstar2]

Maybe to get some friends or girlfriends and try to play HOMM 5 in a hot seat... That is not boring at all.

[Valandil]

Friends? huh? what are those?

[Bloodstar2]

Nerfix said:
A three star new user speaking for all the fans who preordered? LOL. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

And you can't really use the "IT'S A SEQUEL" argument either since every game of the Dominions series has been better than the last one.

Admit it, you just don't want to pay some extra money for it. What's the differnece of price between $40 and €55? The price of couple beer bottles? Some food? Couple miles worth of gas for the car? It's a minimalistic difference!

I and a massive number of people who ordered and preordered the game think that the game is well worth it's price as it is.

Illwinter made this game while their two member team worked on other jobs. I think the other dev had to even find a new job. They are teachers, which is a taxing job in itself. They made the game in their spare time and had to deal with anxious fans. I suppose the fans were anxious for a reason, afterall the game got delayed almost a year.

I doubt Shrapnel is swimming in money either, and that their pricing policy is driven not only by economic realities but also selling out their games at higher price than $5 which seems that many people are ready to pay for.

You seem to think of Shrapnel as some faceless monstrosite which is keeping Illwinter under some jackboot of oppression, or maybe you don't even think of the devs, or the publisher or anything else than just getting the game cheap.

Thing is, we have a two man team who has made a quality came on their spare time, and you come and essenitally say that they don't deserve what's their part of the $55 the game costs?




What a bunch of nonsense!

Last time I checked I had 10000 euros in my bank account, is that enough for a copy of Dominions 3? Man, and Nokia maker, you are funny!

This is really funny. You are trying me to portray as being cheap and YOU DON'T SEE A BIG PICTURE. For you it is mere 5 $. Than my friend you are very narrowminded. I have asked for objective discussion not low under the pants kikcs...

I have 5000 games on my web shop and you are telling me that I am being cheap lol

Great...


Mario

[DragonFire11]

I think major publishers make a mistake discounting their titles. I seldom purchase a new title because I know if I just wait a few months I'll get a steep reduction. I assume that the publishers are pressured into this due to the fight for shelf space at retail. But I guess that is the sacrifice for a deep market distribution. Anyway, I think quality titles deserve a fair and consistent price. For this reason, I appreciate how Shrapnel markets its products. I would, however, like to see them hold a yearly sale or something of the sort. This might convert fence sitters and grow the dom brand until we all say "Blizzard who?".

[Leif_-]

Last time I checked I had 10000 euros in my bank account, is that enough for a copy of Dominions 3? Man, and Nokia maker, you are funny!



Okay, now you're just trolling -- and not very well either.

[Valandil]

Then you are condescendingly advising a company that is doing perfectly well how to sell its products, without any desire for self betterment? Solely out of the goodness of your heart?

The era of saints and philanthropists is long consigned unto the dust. Altruism is, and always as been, dead.

I wish you luck on the streets.

[Bloodstar2]

sniped verbage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

--
I hope you appreciate that that was a rather ill-concieved joke. You are fully free to express opinions, but doing so on this forum is tantamont to suicide. Much as I hate to be accused of hampering open debate, I submit that the above post was not entirely uncalled for, but that circumstances will compell others to mock it.
---

Funny, really funnny. I just said that I wanted some down to earth discussion and now all this... Blah...
So expressing opinions is forbidden here?

I must make post "you are great etc"... otherwise many fanboys will lynch me here lol?

Great, really great. Than on to ban http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Mario

[Valandil]

Actually true, however sad it may be. It was INTENDED as a joke, hence the fact that it SAYS SO.

harrumph.

[Bloodstar2]

Leif_- said:

Last time I checked I had 10000 euros in my bank account, is that enough for a copy of Dominions 3? Man, and Nokia maker, you are funny!



Okay, now you're just trolling -- and not very well either.




I am not trolling. The guy have accused me for being cheap and that I am making noise for a mere 5 $. It's not about 5 $ at all.

I am not being cheap, I just don't like trends like this in the game industry. And why I cannot say this here?


Mario

[Valandil]

Because, as you noted, your tone, combined with poor logic and incoherant spelling, leads to annoyance and irritation. The population of most of civilization is constantly near the "boil-over" point anyhow, so the additional strain causes people to blow up in your face.

Additionally, there are people like me that like to post long rambling discourses replete iwht irony, hyperbole, and, sadly, hypocrisy.

In conclusion, dominions is good, you are bad, and I am stupid.

Valandil signing off of this thread. For now.

[Bloodstar2]

Valandil said:
Then you are condescendingly advising a company that is doing perfectly well how to sell its products, without any desire for self betterment? Solely out of the goodness of your heart?

The era of saints and philanthropists is long consigned unto the dust. Altruism is, and always as been, dead.

I wish you luck on the streets.



Ah, ah, now comes psychology assesment mode?

You are wrong of course. You are wrongly only looking this through fan eyes only. That is only part of the picture.

Then we get down again to basic thing that I can have my opinion as you can have yours, that is perfectly clear and legal I assume. No hidden agenda or preparation for new thermonuclear war here. But again fans have been proved to be not very tolerant to other people's opinion.

Which is not nice because that tends to generate things like we against him. Childish.


Mario

[Leif_-]

DragonFire11 said:
I think major publishers make a mistake discounting their titles. I seldom purchase a new title because I know if I just wait a few months I'll get a steep reduction. I assume that the publishers are pressured into this due to the fight for shelf space at retail.



Well, there's several reasons for them to do this, I suppose. Partly, of course, it's not the publishers that discounts the titles, but the actual stores, who don't have the same interest in keeping prices high (as they have to bear the brunt of the inventory costs.)

Next, there's a question of time-limited marketing campaigns. Once the main marketing thrust around launch is over, I suspect most games see their sales taper off very sharply. To take some numbers out of thin air, if they sell 85% of the copies during the initial marketing blitz, it doesn't really make much of a difference to the bottom line if the remaining 15% sell for 100% of the original price or 50%.

Third, the large game developers share a product model with Hollywood, in that most of their products do not make a profit, but the cost is offset by the rare golden birds that make huge profits. They chase the blockbusters, and the fate of the other games, once it's clear they're not going to be a blockbuster, isn't really important to the bottom line.

There's probably a lot more factors involved. I'm not really that familiar with the economics of the industry or, for that matter, with economics in general.

[Leif_-]

Bloodstar2 said:

I am not being cheap, I just don't like trends like this in the game industry. And why I cannot say this here?



Because you're being uncivil, rude and uncouth about it. In other words: it's not your message, it's your delivery.

[Meglobob]

Just a couple of points:-

A small company usually has to charge MORE for there product than a big company, due to economies of scale. A small company usually is more customer focused and focuses on better quality. Those points apply to Dom3/shrapnel/illwinter.

I think shrapnel/illwinter could be shortchanging themselves as to the potential sales they could get for there dominions franchaise. Stardock a small company like illwinter (only 2 developers more and a few other staff), achieved huge sales with Galactic Civilizations 2 (100,000+, heading towards 200,000+), GC2 is a TBS, comparable in quality to dominions 3. The market for TBS is a resonably sized market. If they did ever release via retail there price would after be lower $49.99, probably and there profit % would be smaller. If they achieved sales like GC2 however, they would make lots more $$$.

I used to work in retail computer games and the biggest profit goes to the retail outlet on software (or did 10 yrs ago), a $49.99 game, retailer takes $20'ish. This is why retail can discount games so heavily.

[Bloodstar2]

Valandil said:
Because, as you noted, your tone, combined with poor logic and incoherant spelling, leads to annoyance and irritation. The population of most of civilization is constantly near the "boil-over" point anyhow, so the additional strain causes people to blow up in your face.

Additionally, there are people like me that like to post long rambling discourses replete iwht irony, hyperbole, and, sadly, hypocrisy.

In conclusion, dominions is good, you are bad, and I am stupid.

Valandil signing off of this thread. For now.




Buahaha. Sorry my logic is not poor. I can apologize for tone but if others cool down and try to respect my opinion my tone will get super friendly.

I am not bad. That is poor insult here. Again, defending something that don't have to be defended. I have also bought this game. Please don't spoil the fun for me.

I am not agressive at all or want to be irritant. That is just your herd forum logic and bullying. Mature fan would accept ANY opinion on a face value and respect it. Immature fan will act like you or some others here. I didn't offended anyone for saying my opinion. Ende. U boot emerges on the surface.


Mario

[Valandil]

Ah, ah, now comes psychology assesment mode?

Huh? look up some definitons before you decide what I'm posting. I said that your desire to help shrapnel will be repayed only with hostility.

You said That I was being narrow-minded, seeing part of the picture, and doing something that you refuse to disclose wrongly. Then YOU say that fans are being hostile. Which is what I said.

I can only assume that you did not understand my english. Which is fully acceptable, but is not an excuse to accuse me of narrow-mindedness.

Sorry for OT, moderators, but I am being wrongly accused.

[DominionsFan]

Bloodstar2 said:

Again, defending something that don't have to be defended.



That is your opinion. I think that we have the right to defend our own opinion in this matter.

PS.
The thread should be locked, since this is a pointless and very subjective discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Bloodstar2]

Leif_- said:

Bloodstar2 said:

I am not being cheap, I just don't like trends like this in the game industry. And why I cannot say this here?



Because you're being uncivil, rude and uncouth about it. In other words: it's not your message, it's your delivery.



Sorry, I am not being uncivil, rude more than others. If you had showed some frendly behaviour I woould be also friendly. Why would my opinion stirr such outburst? Do you need machine guns to help you out against me... Jesus Christ, nobody will be harmed in this process of little criticism.

And mind you as I bought the game I have perfectly legal right to say what I don't like here in this case.

I didn't pirate it through torentz or something. I have bought this game just like you. Continue, I know that I will be banned because I can see that tolerance here is also very low. But, if I get banned that will not be just my blame. And you will be happy I think.


Mario

[Bloodstar2]

Valandil said:

Ah, ah, now comes psychology assesment mode?

Huh? look up some definitons before you decide what I'm posting. I said that your desire to help shrapnel will be repayed only with hostility.

You said That I was being narrow-minded, seeing part of the picture, and doing something that you refuse to disclose wrongly. Then YOU say that fans are being hostile. Which is what I said.

I can only assume that you did not understand my english. Which is fully acceptable, but is not an excuse to accuse me of narrow-mindedness.

Sorry for OT, moderators, but I am being wrongly accused.




Hehe, we don't need to argue. In fact this is great fun, why to close down the thread? lol
After a long and hard work today I can also have some fun lol

I am sorry if I offended anyone, yes my English is not good like yours it was not my intentions. I said my opinion - enough for me. Now we can just talk for fun.


Mario

[Archonsod]

"And mind you as I bought the game I have perfectly legal right to say what I don't like here in this case."

It's a little late for criticism of the price after you bought it though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It's a rather strange argument. Obviously enough people are willing to pay the current price for the game, hence no reason to drop it. Sure, more people might buy it for a lower price, but unless your desperate to sell more it's not much of an argument. I reckon more people would buy rolex watches if they lowered the price, but I can't see it happening in the future...

[Gandalf Parker]

You are all endangering this thread. Get back to discussing the subject and not discussing each other.

I will point out that it would do no one any good to go to a forum that is 99% one mind, post something counter to that, then complain if its not taken well. Such a battle takes above-average diplomacy if you really think its going to make a dent. I think that the community here has been fairly well mannered compared to most other fan sites.

[DominionsFan]

I don't think that you should be banned, however this thread should be locked real fast. This is slowly turning into a flame war because of a pointless argument.
This game is pretty unique, there isn't any game like this on the PC market. It is also extremely addictive. The majority of us are only playing with this game [well I do buy many other games, but I am always focusing on Doms], so 55$ is nothing for it. Please try to understand things like this.

[Bloodstar2]

DominionsFan said:
I don't think that you should be banned, however this thread should be locked real fast. This is slowly turning into a flame war because of a pointless argument.
This game is pretty unique, there isn't any game like this on the PC market. It is also extremely addictive. The majority of us are only playing with this game [well I do buy many other games, but I am always focusing on Doms], so 55$ is nothing for it. Please try to understand things like this.



I am. I will also play this game so don't want to be banned because where I will ask for advices? lol

I know that this game is great. OK, I have stated my opinion so we can get back to discuss the game.

I will make feedback when my game actually arrive so no more fuss and beating the dead horse anymore. I don't want flame.
It was fun ...


Mario

[Tim Brooks]

Hi All!

Okay everyone lets take a deep breath.

I hope you are enjoying Dominions 3, regardless of how you feel about the price point we have set.

I have followed this forum topic on and off over the last few days, as well as a similar discussion on another board. I am going to break my own rule and talk a little about why we have priced Dominions 3 the way we did. I usually don't get into these discussions as there is no win here. Some will feel the game is overpriced, and nothing I say will change that. Now having said that...

Dominions II was priced at $49.95, and we had a similar discussion going on at the time we released it with regard to pricing. Some people think that niche products, developed on shoestring budgets should be priced as shareware, even though we have all the costs that a major publisher has - maybe just not on the same scale - and the developer on a per man basis probably puts in more hours than a developer of any major title on a per man basis. Well, Shrapnel and Illwinter survived those discussions, and Dominions II was a success, becoming one of our top three selling games ever.

Now onto Dominions 3. We had a huge decision to make. We could either follow the path of Dominions II and print a manual on par with the Dominions II manual, or take the manual up a notch. Doing a Dominions II style manual would have probably left the price point the same; taking things up a notch would mean a price increase. Due to the overwhelming feedback from the true fans of Dominions and those who didn't buy or didn't enjoy the game (as first timers), we felt a much improved manual would benefit everyone who we considered our target customer. We also hoped that it would lead to additional sales, but that is really something that only time will tell - and it is way too early to make that call.

As some of you are aware, Illwinter hired Bruce Geryk to write the manual, and we supported the decision to make the manual a 200 page 'book'. Due to the quality work Bruce gave us and knowing that we didn't want to cut out anything, we ended up with a manual of almost 300 pages. Then, we decided, due to the large amount of reference materials, to upgrade the manual binding to coil binding, so that it could lay flat. BTW, the price of the last 100 pages and the coil binding doubled the cost of the manual over the 200 page manual we had originally envisioned. Now add to that the cost of the printer shipping to us manuals that are twice the weight of the Dominions II manual and storage costs of manuals that take up twice the space...

Can you see where I am heading? I think that is enough said. Just know, that Shrapnel Games and Illwinter will make less per copy on Dominions 3 than we did on Dominions 2, even with the $5.00 increase. So, to make the same money we have to sell many more copies and as I said earlier, we are way too early into the release to know if this decision will pay divdends.

We didn't set the price of Dominions 3 based on what we thought the market would bear or to make huge profits or to insult potential customers. We set the price based on economics of costs. And if I had known the manual would end up at 300 pages with coil binding I would have set the price at $59.95. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

We appreciate those of you who have bought Dominions 3 and those that have taken the time to try the demo. To those of you who think the price is too high, maybe this isn't the game for you. We don't want anyone leaving our store feeling that we have taken advantage of you.

Thanks for listening.

[Bloodstar2]

We appreciate those of you who have bought Dominions 3 and those that have taken the time to try the demo. To those of you who think the price is too high, maybe this isn't the game for you. We don't anyone leaving our store feeling that we have taken advantage of you.

Thanks for listening.





OK, thank you. That is nice and clear reasoning. I will aceept your words. I am not entirely convinced and I still support idea of cheaper games - bigger audience but whatever. I will not spoil the party.

Will try to discuss game related thing when I get the game.


Mario

[Boron]

Hm i have not yet gotten my copy, so i cannot yet judge about the quality of the manual.
But because there is the option of a digital manual, best case e.g. as word or html document, and the charts etc. sortable as e.g. excel-files i can state my opinion nontheless i think.

I am sure that Bruce did a fantastic manual. But if it would be digital as i said it would be even a bit better imho.

Dom 2 had after a while excellent fanmade digital documentation.
And my personal opinion for any hardcore strategy game is that the manual is only the basics, but most important for the learning process is nontheless discussion and play with other players and guides by veteran players.

So i personally would be happier with a digital manual if i would have to pay less then.

You just stated that you earn less per sold copy of Dom3 than per sold copy of Dom2 because of the additional costs from the manual.
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border, so i oracle that Dom3 will bring you less profit than Dom2.

If you had offered 2 versions of Dom3 for purchase though i think every customer would have been content:
First version with a digital manual for e.g. 45$ and the second version as you offer it now with the printed in high quality manual for 60$ for those people who prefer to have a physical manual.

That is just my subjective opinion though and i hope that Dom3 sells better than Dom2 because imho both of you, Illwinter and Shrapnel, deserve success with Dom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Caduceus]

I'll be curious to see when/if Dominions 3 breaks Dominions 2 sales numbers.

[Annette]

Bloodstar2 said:
It was fun ...
Mario



We're a fun group! That'll be $5.00 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Theonlystd]

Boron said:
Hm i have not yet gotten my copy, so i cannot yet judge about the quality of the manual.
But because there is the option of a digital manual, best case e.g. as word or html document, and the charts etc. sortable as e.g. excel-files i can state my opinion nontheless i think.

I am sure that Bruce did a fantastic manual. But if it would be digital as i said it would be even a bit better imho.

Dom 2 had after a while excellent fanmade digital documentation.
And my personal opinion for any hardcore strategy game is that the manual is only the basics, but most important for the learning process is nontheless discussion and play with other players and guides by veteran players.

So i personally would be happier with a digital manual if i would have to pay less then.

You just stated that you earn less per sold copy of Dom3 than per sold copy of Dom2 because of the additional costs from the manual.
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border, so i oracle that Dom3 will bring you less profit than Dom2.

If you had offered 2 versions of Dom3 for purchase though i think every customer would have been content:
First version with a digital manual for e.g. 45$ and the second version as you offer it now with the printed in high quality manual for 60$ for those people who prefer to have a physical manual.

That is just my subjective opinion though and i hope that Dom3 sells better than Dom2 because imho both of you, Illwinter and Shrapnel, deserve success with Dom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.



Aye i dont much care for manuals.. I can read a pdf as well as paper. I would of most definalty taken the cheaper version.

Now one of my friends i recently told about. Was over joyed at a spiral binded 300 page manual and plans on ordering soon.

2 versions would of been spiffy if the manual is what was costing so much.

[alexti]

DragonFire11 said:
I think major publishers make a mistake discounting their titles. I seldom purchase a new title because I know if I just wait a few months I'll get a steep reduction.


That situation is really weird. If you wait you're getting:
1) cheaper price;
2) better quality (the game is patched [to some extent] by that time);
3) lower platform cost (by that time, the hardware required to run that game decently cost cheaper).
These makes buying major titles right away impractical. I'm sure I'm not the first who noticed it and publishers certainly aware of it. So they probably just follow the plan of intentionally pricing the game higher on release. Probably they consider something like 20$ a good fair price for their product, but set it much higher initially to get money from people who *must* have it the day it's out.

[Talleyrand]

Can we get this thread locked now? I appreciate the official response and knowing now that the higher cost was due to the manual and not an attempted fleecing of a loyal playerbase. Every possible avenue has been explored in this thread already and I think it's time to move on to other topics. Thanks again.

[Frostmourne27]

I see no reason to lock it. It WAS getting a bit confrontational, but I think that has died down. There is probably very little to say, but somebody might come along with a good point or two. That said, no one should feel obliged to post here. We won't think less of you if you skip this thread, but some of us fanatics might want to chew on old soup a little more.

[atul]

Boron said:
But imho those 55$ are really a bit too much above the magical 50$/50€ border,


And here's the funny bit. Thanks to the exchange rate, the current price of Dom3 + shipping amounts quite nicely to 50 euros. My visa bill for the pre-ordered game was below 50€, but the price for the one I ordered just last week will probably be quite near the magic number. Most of the new games in Finland cost in 50-70€ range, and this gets delivered home.

So, in addition of getting paid more wages (on average) you USians apparently pay less for your goods if $55 is something to complain. Silly people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Here's hoping Shrapnel and Illwinter get what they deserve out of Dom3 sales (i.e. only positive stuff).

[Cainehill]

Bloodstar2 said:
Sorry, I am not being uncivil, rude more than others. If you had showed some frendly behaviour I woould be also friendly. Why would my opinion stirr such outburst? Do you need machine guns to help you out against me... Jesus Christ, nobody will be harmed in this process of little criticism.




Excuse me, mister "friendly" - you're the one who popped up and posted, with no provocation, "Well, I knew that you are biased and not very bright, but you tend to be a liar as well." Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

So, surprisingly enough, people think you're rude, uncivil, uncouth, or worse. And it has nothing to do with your use of the English language, or your opinion about the game or its pricing.


And mind you as I bought the game I have perfectly legal right to say what I don't like here in this case.



No, you don't have _any_ "legal" right to post here. Posting here is a privilege (albeit sometimes a dubious one) - if you don't behave, you run the risk of being banned from what is essentially a private forum, run by a commercial company. No "legal right" here at all.


... I know that I will be banned because I can see that tolerance here is also very low. But, if I get banned that will not be just my blame. And you will be happy I think.



I for one will be delighted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kristoffer O]

> Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But still Cainehill, the discussion is supposed to be back on track and not personal anymore.

[Bloodstar2]

Kristoffer O said:
> Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But still Cainehill, the discussion is supposed to be back on track and not personal anymore.



That's why I will not even answer to this Deda Pantelija/Van Gogh person. But, I will gladly give him knife if he wants to tear his ear out haha lol


Mario

[Bloodstar2]

Annette said:

Bloodstar2 said:
It was fun ...
Mario



We're a fun group! That'll be $5.00 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

OK I think that all guns are silent...


Mario

[Bloodstar2]

[/quote]

Excuse me, mister "friendly" - you're the one who popped up and posted, with no provocation, "Well, I knew that you are biased and not very bright, but you tend to be a liar as well." Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

------


I will answer just to this because this is clearly false statement. I didn't make any discussion on Usenet to SWING majority of users on usenet AGAINST SHRAPNEL or anything like that. So that was clearly false statement. In fact what is majoriry on Usenet, three dunkard? lol Usenet is also full of lurkers.

Somebody clearly attacked me and have pinned me some bad intentions. Annette can say how much I have praised Shrapnel and Dominions 2 on USENET and other forums and that you don't count! That word of mouth is not credited http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And as many listen to me, I have spread a word about Dominions 2 and many bought the game because of that. That is different story and don't have to do with my dislike of this price (and there is a lot more to that but I put this matter at closed).

And it is really low now to attack me when we agreed that discussion is over. Maybe to start flying some apologizes. I for myself am sorry if I have offended anybody.


Mario

[Leif_-]

I will answer just to this because this is clearly false statement. I didn't make any discussion on Usenet to SWING majority of users on usenet AGAINST SHRAPNEL or anything like that. [...]

Somebody clearly attacked me and have pinned me some bad intentions.



Nobody attacked you. You're reading a personal attack into Gandalf's statement that "You do understand that asking [if Dominions III is overpriced] in the Dominions forum makes it likely that most people will not agree with you? But even in the usenet strategy forums I had the same conversation. The person there also was not able to swing a majority."

That's not an attack on you. It's a description of the discussion on Usenet you participated in. He didn't make any claims about your intents or purpose, only about the outcome of the discussion itself.

[Bloodstar2]

Leif_- said:

I will answer just to this because this is clearly false statement. I didn't make any discussion on Usenet to SWING majority of users on usenet AGAINST SHRAPNEL or anything like that. [...]

Somebody clearly attacked me and have pinned me some bad intentions.



Nobody attacked you. You're reading a personal attack into Gandalf's statement that "You do understand that asking [if Dominions III is overpriced] in the Dominions forum makes it likely that most people will not agree with you? But even in the usenet strategy forums I had the same conversation. The person there also was not able to swing a majority."

That's not an attack on you. It's a description of the discussion on Usenet you participated in. He didn't make any claims about your intents or purpose, only about the outcome of the discussion itself.



haha...

What outcome? I am on Usenet since 1996. Are you aware that on Usenet is MORE LURKERS than those who write.... That there 5 Dominions fans made dislike of my view and one partly because he also agreed that price is high means something?
Sometimes bigger impact is to shout in the lobby of your building than to say something on Usenet.

Now, what means "swing majority"... I also read this as personal attack. Sorry but telling opinion as INDIVIDUAL is not swinging majority. But, if you would like that just let me know - if I am that much powerful lol. Now put American anthem behind and stay calm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And please... can we respect some opinion or not? I deal with computer games all the time, buy them and sell them so I know few things about that as well. Tim Brooks have explained some things but it's good that he get some other feedback as well...


EDIT: Swinging mojority - I have reacted as i have reacted because I don't want to be portrayed as enemy of the Shrapnel by fanboys here because I dislike this price politics. That is nonsense. And THAT would not come to his honour to any FREE thinking individual be it anywhere on this planet. Understood that padre?


Mario

[Jarkko]

A game that is prolly going to be played for years, has the best (as in term of usefulness, I actually believe I will be using it for as long as I'll play this game) manual I have seen in my ~25 computer gaming experience (during which I have bought dozens of computer-games), is delivered home, and costs less than 50€... Yeah, for me it is prolly the best BBF (bang-for-bucks) ever.

And I have to admit, if there had been a choice to get Dom3 for 5€ less if the manual was digitally available too, I might have taken the cheap way. And I for sure would be kicking my head now (and moaning if I possibly can buy the manual separate). The manual really is *damn good* (and there I have always been calling people who actually read manuals as "losers"...), and I think Shrapnel made a good decission by "forcing" people to get it too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Leif_-]

Well, I tried. This discussion is through for my part.

[Bloodstar2]

I also tried. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saxon]

Tim,

Thanks for letting us know the reasoning on the manual and the history of it. I am sure there will be much back and forth on this, but it is great to know what actually went on.

For my two cents of market research, I prefer a printed manual. After all, after a few hours of non-stop playing, you need to go to the toilet! Reading about the game is not as good as playing it, but it is better than my wife's magazines!

Still looking at the demo and see a lot of nice improvments, yet to deceide if I will order.

Stay well!

[DominionsFan]

Bloodstar2 said:

Kristoffer O said:
> Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But still Cainehill, the discussion is supposed to be back on track and not personal anymore.



That's why I will not even answer to this Deda Pantelija/Van Gogh person. But, I will gladly give him knife if he wants to tear his ear out haha lol


Mario



lmao! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Who is Deda Pantelija anyways?

[Bloodstar2]

DominionsFan said:

Bloodstar2 said:

Kristoffer O said:
> Now, I could understand if you'd been posting that about _me_ since I tend to sometimes be obnoxious enough to draw such commentary, but you didn't post it to me.

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But still Cainehill, the discussion is supposed to be back on track and not personal anymore.



That's why I will not even answer to this Deda Pantelija/Van Gogh person. But, I will gladly give him knife if he wants to tear his ear out haha lol


Mario



lmao! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Who is Deda Pantelija anyways?



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif))

hello, I see that you have Mirko Filipovic in your sig... I have seen him around in Zagreb... hehe, but I am not that tough to beat him (cough, cough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Deda Pantelija is one funny character from one Serbian movie called "Maratonci trce pocasni krug". Movie is in fact cult movie and very funny.
I was once in bar with my friend and we knew the owner he is from Amsterdam and he had some bottle like brandy and there was this picture of Van Gogh on a bottle and my friend told him and showed on a bottle: "This Deda Pantelija is givin me a strange look" lol
so I just made tonque in cheek.


Mario

[DominionsFan]

Ah I see. I was in Croatia countless times, I have many mates there [well basically kickboxers], also we have 2 houses near the sea. Where do you live? Zagreb? Mirko is a very cool man, I've met with him 2 times, thanks to my sparring partners. Yeah more then likely he would kick my butt also, but this might change in ~3-5 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ps. Nice to meet with a Croatian on this forum mate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Bloodstar2]

DominionsFan said:
Ah I see. I was in Croatia countless times, I have many mates there [well basically kickboxers], also we have 2 houses near the sea. Where do you live? Zagreb? Mirko is a very cool man, I've met with him 2 times, thanks to my sparring partners. Yeah more then likely he would kick my butt also, but this might change in ~3-5 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ps. Nice to meet with a Croatian on this forum mate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif



Cool.
Yes, I live in Zagreb. I know some people who are good with Mirko. Also, my friend was before into boxing (ordinary) and he was sparring with Zeljko Mavrovic. Mavrovic today is a businessman, he makes good bread and other healthy food products, my friends works at his company as well.

And also salute to you Hungarian mate!


Mario

[Dhaeron]

DragonFire11 said:
I think major publishers make a mistake discounting their titles. I seldom purchase a new title because I know if I just wait a few months I'll get a steep reduction. I assume that the publishers are pressured into this due to the fight for shelf space at retail. But I guess that is the sacrifice for a deep market distribution. Anyway, I think quality titles deserve a fair and consistent price. For this reason, I appreciate how Shrapnel markets its products. I would, however, like to see them hold a yearly sale or something of the sort. This might convert fence sitters and grow the dom brand until we all say "Blizzard who?".


I think you're mistaken here. While i still wonder about the incompetence that is displayed everywhere in the IT indsutry, (while working there i get to observe it first hand. I blame it on the older generation in higher management ranks who grew up with electric typewriters not computers) i'm sure that the economists at the big publishing companies know exactly what they're doing.
I'd say that in most mainstream games new graphics make up 50-80% of the selling point. Basically, crap like halo 2 or WoW sells because it's shiny and new not because it's so much better than the predecessor from last year. Ok, maybe those were bad examples since in bose cases they've ben massively overhyped too.
Anyway, mainstream games have to be shiny to sell, and on the mass market, games aren't shiny anymore if their graphics are a year old. Many posts in this thread show how important shinyness is for many gamers.
So, the way i interpret it, publishers of mainstream games don't have a choice but to reduce prices over time or they wouldn't sell the game anymore. Because you can always pick up the newest shiny clone of one of the five or so game types that are still produced en masse if you're willing to pay full price. No point in buying a virtually identical game with older graphics.
Niche games are different. Unlike Oblivion or Doom 3, games like Dominions or UFO: Aftershock (to name a semi-niche game not from Shrapnel) age very well, since shinyness isn't important in the first place, the value doesn't diminish with time.

[DominionsFan]

Bloodstar2 said:

DominionsFan said:
Ah I see. I was in Croatia countless times, I have many mates there [well basically kickboxers], also we have 2 houses near the sea. Where do you live? Zagreb? Mirko is a very cool man, I've met with him 2 times, thanks to my sparring partners. Yeah more then likely he would kick my butt also, but this might change in ~3-5 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ps. Nice to meet with a Croatian on this forum mate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif



Cool.
Yes, I live in Zagreb. I know some people who are good with Mirko. Also, my friend was before into boxing (ordinary) and he was sparring with Zeljko Mavrovic. Mavrovic today is a businessman, he makes good bread and other healthy food products, my friends works at his company as well.

And also salute to you Hungarian mate!


Mario



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1889310045852998579&q=mirko+filipovic&hl=en

K1 legends in this little video including Mirko, Hoost, Andy Hug, Aerts and many others. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3578956398087456270&q=mirko+filipo vic&hl=en

Some fight scenes of Mirko, some of them are from his early period. [Can you see the difference between his young period and later period? He is using his legs much more lately, not to mention that his muscles are much bigger now + also he is much more powerful and faster now.]
He has worked a lot to become one of the best fighters, you can find some training session videos on the net. I am really impressed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Bloodstar2]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1889310045852998579&q=mirko+filipovic&hl=en

K1 legends in this little video including Mirko, Hoost, Andy Hug, Aerts and many others. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3578956398087456270&q=mirko+filipo vic&hl=en

Some fight scenes of Mirko, most of them are from his early period. [Can you see the difference between his young period and later period? He is using his legs much more lately, not to mention that his muscles are much bigger now + also he is much more powerful and faster now.]
He worked a lot for this, you can find some training session videos also. I am really impressed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[/quote]

Thanks, appreciate the links, I look the video later today I have fight with office clerks around town ah..
Good to see that discussion have cooled down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Will report my mini review when I get the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Mindi]

I think this thread as run it's course and needs to go to thread heaven.

Lock.