ANZAC OOB - Motor Company

[TDR]

In the ANZAC OOB there is a Motor Company and a Motor Platoon.
Is this a Motor Company as per the Motor Company in an Armoured Brigade or it is an attempt to represent a normal Infantry Company just mounted in organic trucks?
Similar with the Motor Platoon.

[Mobhack]

It will probably be the normal UK style motor company with organic 15cwt trucks. (as opposed to a leg bn which would use bn level MT for any non-tactical moves)

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

Andy when you say a UK Motor company do you refer to the Motor Companies that were associated with the Armoured Brigaeds or just basic Moror Companies not related to teh oens in teh Armoured Brigades/Divs?

From what I can determine that is where the motor companies fit in.
I am at present trying to see where it should fit in.

[Mobhack]

See formation No. 103 in the UK OOB - it is a direct copy of that.

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

OK now I follow what it is trying to be.
So when you sort out the 2 inch mortar bit and the funny scout part of the Infantry platoon it will be closer to the intent.

But in that case the original designers did not incluse the components of the Motor Regiment and its squadrons, this being totally different to the Motor Company and was a component of the Armoured Division.
Also the Aust Motor Regiment was not structured like the 'Motor Company 30' as per UK OOB.

[Mobhack]

So - if you have tat info - please share.

e.g. - is it like the UK motor company 1930 (as used by the Rifle Brigade etc) with added motor MG sections, carrier scouts etc? (formation 331) - with the mech version when halftracks appear (332 - the motor coy 43).

And where used? - I was unaware of any Australian armoured divisions or brigades etc?.

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

Shame..
There are War Diaries for 1, 2 & 3 Armoured Div as well as a couple Motor Divs. I have not finished checking all the detail but some of these were short lived. The Armoured Divs lasted the war period


Mobhack said:
So - if you have tat info - please share.

e.g. - is it like the UK motor company 1930 (as used by the Rifle Brigade etc) with added motor MG sections, carrier scouts etc? (formation 331) - with the mech version when halftracks appear (332 - the motor coy 43).

And where used? - I was unaware of any Australian armoured divisions or brigades etc?.

Cheers
Andy


Ok some basics first I will finish off the rest later.

1 Armoured Div: (and tank type allocation as Feb 42)
1 Armoured brigade as:
5 Armoured Regt – I Tanks, (Matilda)
6 Armoured Regt – M3 light tanks
7 Armoured Regt – M3 mediums.

2 Armoured Brigade
8 Armoured Regt – M3 mediums
9 Armoured Regt – I Tanks, (Matilda)
10 Armoured Regt – M3 mediums.

1 Armoured brigade Recce Sqn.
2 Armoured brigade Recce Sqn.
11 Armoured Cav Regt.

20 Aust Motor Regt attached to 1 Armoured Div, Feb 42

Formal naming of the AC tank series
As of 13 Feb 1942 AC1 “Sentinel”
As of 13 Feb 1942 AC3 “Scorpion”

Also there was a 15 Aust Motor Regt, formed from Northern River Lancers, NSW; 1941

add the following as edit
Besides that there is the Infantry Div Cav Regts which are not properly formed in the OOB as well. That is 6, 7 and 9 Div Cav Regts.

These are just some of the many reasons, beside the significant difference between Australia and New Zealand that I questioned the lack of separation of the ANZAC OOB into two separate nations.
Perhaps its just a case of lack of understanding of these 2 countries war establishments and organisations that have led the ANZAC OOB to be made into one.

[DRG]

I already explained this. Now I'll do it again

The reason they are together is because that's the way they always were in SP ( and have been in our version of SP since 1998 )and nobody...... I repeat....nobody had an issue with that for all those years until now and you seem to be the only one. Do you know why Sweden is included and not a separate Australian and New Zealand OOB ??? Because a gentleman by the name of John Turesson said ( to paraphrase ) "I would like Sweden included and I will write an OOB to support that" Then, shockingly ( because most people are long on talk and short on real work ) he did. ( and then produced one for MBT as well )http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

So I appreciate all the hints that the OOB should be split but I have other issues to deal with ATM. However, if you truly think this is worth the time to do, be my guest. **Maybe** at some time in the future if someone DOES produce two viable accurate OOB's for both nations then **Maybe** we might split the two but that's a lot of maybes added to the "maybe" that somebody might actually write the OOB's.

In the meantime, as issues are raised about the existing OOB I will put them into a to-do list for the next WW2 patch but there are NO plans to split the OOB

Don

[TDR]

DRG said:
...
So I appreciate all the hints that the OOB should be split but I have other issues to deal with ATM. However, if you truly think this is worth the time to do, be my guest. **Maybe** at some time in the future if someone DOES produce two viable accurate OOB's for both nations then **Maybe** we might split the two but that's a lot of maybes added to the "maybe" that somebody might actually write the OOB's.

In the meantime, as issues are raised about the existing OOB I will put them into a to-do list for the next WW2 patch but there are NO plans to split the OOB

Don



Well maybe fine, but do you have any design constraints on the various units I should know about first? What happens re AI pick list, ordering within OOb etc?

Anything you think I should or should not do can easily be PMed or email to me.
Part of this can parallel along with some other work I am doing.

[TDR]

Andy:
A general version of the Motorised Regiment in Australian Army, 1942 is as follows.

Squadron HQ
1 x truck – Sqn Commd.
1 x truck – Sqn 2IC
1 x Scout car.
3 x Motor cycles.
Manning 2/15

Anti-Tank Troop
3 x Anti-Tank carriers, (2 Pounder Tank Attack Carriers)

Scout Troop
Made up of 3 sections,
HQ Section
_ 3 x Universal Carrier, Vickers MMGs
_ 2 Motor cycle, (runner)
3 x LMG, 1 x 2 inch Mor, 1 x AT Rifle
Sect 2 & 3
_ 3 x Universal Carrier
3 x LMG, 1 x 2 inch Mor, 1 x AT Rifle

Motor Troop
3 Motor troops as:
PL HQ
1 x Truck - HQ
1 x Motor cycle, (runner)
1 x truck – Pl Sgt & 2 inch Mortar
also carried PL AT weapon.
Manning Pl HQ 1/7

Each Section
1 x Truck
Manning 0/10


The there is a second source specific to 15 Motor Regt giving the following:
Sqn HQ
3 x Motor cycle, (runner)
1 x Dingo S/C, this is the Australian Dingo scout car.
1 x White S/C
4 x Truck wireless
1 x Truck water carrier
1 x Mobile cooker, ( Kitchen)
1 x Truck AP wireless( armoured wireless truck/vehicle)
1 x truck AA LMG

Scout Troop
9 x Universal Carrier MG, these have Vickers MMGs
2 x motor Cycle

Tank Attack Troop
3 x Carrier 2 Pounder
1 x Universal Carrier MG
1 truck 5 cwt

3 Motor Troops, each as
1 x Truck 5 cwt
4 x White S/C
1 x truck GS, (15 cwt – 1 ton)

In all cases the carriers are Aust LP versions.
Also I have not included the following regimental troops, Mortar and Recce Troops. These are specific to the Motor regiment as well.

In the Australian system there were no half tracks. The only half track Australia ever had/has is in the RAAC Museum and that one comes from Israel.

What New Zealand had I have not researched as it is out side my main current research area.

[Mobhack]

so these are 1942-only formations, and used where (just inside Australia?).

and section "trucks" - 15cwt or 4 tonners?

Andy

[TDR]

Mobhack said:
so these are 1942-only formations, and used where (just inside Australia?).

and section "trucks" - 15cwt or 4 tonners?

Andy


trucks in 15 cwt - 1 ton range
Until pacific, 43 Armoured Div mainly in Australia.
In SWP, few M3 light most mainly Matildas in trooops of 3, as 2 Gun tanks and 1 CS tank. Also some very few M3 mediums used late 45.

The details for 15 MR was the official list, like all things there were variations depending on equipment.

Also later many motor cycles were replaced with jeeps. I can not remember teh dat but I do have a list of teh initial jeep allocation with in 1 Armoured somewhere in my notes. Some Sub HQ also had jeeps allocated when fully introduced.

Later on Machine Gun Bns were allocated jeeps instead of the carrier.

[DRG]

We are currently in the early stages of developing and playtesting the WinSPMBT patch. That has top priority and if.....*IF* we are very lucky indeed we might actually get it done before Christmas.....maybe.

As a result, WinSPWW2 is not a priority but we will keep an eye on these threads and when the time comes to start work on the next winspww2 upgrade we'll look into some of these these issues.

[DRG]

TDR said:
Well maybe fine, but do you have any design constraints on the various units I should know about first? What happens re AI pick list, ordering within OOb etc?



OOB's for nations that already exist, to be compatible with pre-existing scenarios, MUST maintain the same unit structure as the existing OOB. That is, if unit 010 is a Crusader I then the new OOB better have a Crusader I in that slot otherwise any sceanrio that uses that piece of equipment will display that WinSPWW2 Icon you see in MOBHack when you click on an empty unit slot.
If Unit 175 is a "patrol" then there needs to be a "patrol" in that unit slot otherwise that WinSPWW2 Icon will pop up in every scenario that uses that unit. Obviously, not every unit gets used in every sceanrio but this will eventually bite you if those units are not maintained. Now......let's assume that you don't want a "patrol" unit in your OOB. OK, fine...now lets assume that "patrol" is being used in a dozen scenarios ( I have seen similar things happen with other OOB's ). The ONLY solution ( besides redoing every sceanrio ) is to re-nationalize the unit ( nation 99 is handy for that ) when a unit is re-nationalized like that it will not show up in the purchase menus but it WILL show up just fine in the old sceanrio that uses it. Now....... you COULD decide that you like that "patrol" unit but want to rename it....no problem, go right ahead but don't just delete it and what ever you do don't decide to "tidy" up all the units so they are listed by type ( all the tanks in one place, the infantry in another etc etc for all the reasons listed above.

To maintain the pre-existing internal coded AI picklists picklist structure you MUST ensure that if formation 006 is a "Tank Squadron" that runs from 1/42 - 12/49 then you need to place your Tank Squadron in the same place and cover the same dates because the picklist is set up to buy formations based on the existing formation structure. If the new OOB simply cannot fit into the existing formation structure then the alternative is re-nationalizing formations and placing the new ones further down the list and leaving these old ones in place for the AI to use.

OR we rewrite the picklist but that's an exception, not a rule


For a nation that does not exist and IS going to be added ( and I make NO promises one will be.....) then there are no restrictions on unit or formation placement becasue a picklist will need to be written for it. If it's to be used in one of the "spare" OOB slots for AI use ( green, blue or red ) then the existing formation structures in those spare OOB's apply

Adding a new nation is NOT a trivial matter. Writting an OOB for it is just the start

[TDR]

Don Fine, but sounding messy OOB structure wise.
Some other issues not public forum which comes into this. As I said " Part of this can parallel along with some other work I am doing". The OOB issues with this are but a flow off of that work and as such, needs to be pointed out off air so to speak. May not be a problem, but!

[Mobhack]

Most of the "B" vehicles such as M/C used as D/R can be simply ignored for SP OOBs.

The mixed matilda platoon - may be useful, was that org used as individual platoons, or was each troop in the squadron like this? (ie a mixed troop needed + a mixed matilda Sqdn formation (presumably without the CS tanks at SHQ in that case?).

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

I see you need to be introduced to our infantry & tank Jungle fighting.

Mobhack said:
Most of the "B" vehicles such as M/C used as D/R can be simply ignored for SP OOBs.

The mixed matilda platoon - may be useful, was that org used as individual platoons, or was each troop in the squadron like this? (ie a mixed troop needed + a mixed matilda Sqdn formation (presumably without the CS tanks at SHQ in that case?).

Cheers
Andy



1. motor cycles as per UK mainly for communication/runner on wheels. Though teh MTR Mor Pl had one it seems for PL Commd(?). Old UK style.

2. The mix of gun and Cs tanks was the standard attack practice. Also little smoke in this its all HE form the CS tanks. Different to ME/NA.

Tactics was. (lead tank) No1 Gun tank, No2 CS tank, No3 Gun tank. Inf Pl in close suport.

So a Coy advance has this conbo in front, It is more of a Coy Arrow head/Wedge formation.

Beside re last post to Don, you need to understand that picture befor I keep adding more here.