Newbie Game EA (Running)

[Sheap]

Server is back up running version 3.04.

[FAJ]

retake our turns under new patch?

[Sheap]

You should not have to replay your turn. You can if you want to. You might log in and check that your orders are what you expect. But, battle replays will be wrong for last turn if you replay it with 3.04, since last turn was generated with 3.00.

[Sheap]

This turn the great armies of R'lyeh and Atlantis have given the Sea of Blood a battle worthy of its name!

[Sir_Dr_D]

Sheap said:
This turn the great armies of R'lyeh and Atlantis have given the Sea of Blood a battle worthy of its name!



And now I have to get the patch s I can login and see what the results was. I know it was a close battle.

[Sheap]

You won, but as someone once said, too many more victories like that and you will be undone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sir_Dr_D]

You outnumbered me by about 100 troops. And the only reason I lost the amount of men that i did was because of your sea trolls. And now most of your sea trolls are dead, and I killed every single one of your giboleths. And my strongest units are still standing. The effect of the battle was exactly what I wanted.

[Sheap]

The nation of R'lyeh has need of Astral Pearls in order to perfect our calendar. We have a large number of what we believe are known as "Air Gems." We consider this "air" to be a mysterious substance, unwholesome to breathe and not entirely natural, and wish to exchange this magical essence for one more befitting of our nation.

Any interested land-dwellers should contact us.

[FrankTrollman]

We'd trade you 30 for 30.

The Great Catsby has Spoken.

[AdrianP]

The cries of agony from the people of the Sauromatia region has deeply sadden the heart of our dear God Agatha. As such, Her Most Magnificent has dispatched a peacemaking force into the territory of the T'ien ch'i.

[FAJ]

Haha, the magic of TienChi is pretty ridiculous. A remote spell that kills over 50% of my troops gave me a good grin. I didn't even realize that magic got that powerful. What the point of making an army? or even playing the game?

Luckily, I survived long enough into this game to at least learn something. It was a good first try at Dom3.

I'll set myself to computer after I finish transactions and promises to other players.

[Sheap]

Magical dominance can be difficult to overcome. But, it looks like you have an unexpected ally in Ulm. You should not quit here. You have one of the strongest nations, even after this attack.

[FrankTrollman]

By which you mean that your forces treacherously broke the alliance and invaded an undefended border. Do you honestly think this is a good idea considering the losses you took against province defense?

Attached are some pictures from our battles against Yomi this turn. By the way, here's the web of destruction that Yomi was in for:

First, we sent a magically early winter to the lands Yomi was invading so that snow was cold and deep upon the ground. Then we froze the heart of their camp devastating their worthless goblin lives while our forces were invading.

As the only remaining neighbors of Tien Chi who have yet to betray the trust of Catsby, I offer the scaled hand of friendship to Rlyeh and Abysia. We can help you in many ways and you can jolly well just not stab your tiny daggers into the thunderous ankles of our empire! That would be great.

Sheesh. We realize that we are the Middle Kingdom, that our lands stand not just metaphorically but actually at the center of the world and that all nice lands are but a subset of the glorious lands of Tien Chi. We can only imagine the jealousy that must run cold in the blood of those who do not live in the lands of Tien Chi, but for all that we also must stress that we are perfectly willing to allow foreigners to visit our glorious lands and feel the inadequacy that must naturally overtake anyone who must content themselves with living in a land that is not Tien Chi.

But please, stop invading Tien Chi. This is the fifth empire that has volunteered itself for destruction by throwing the flower of their youth into the spears of Tien Chi. It's getting to the point where we can't even spare the troops to actually finish off some of these false gods. They are like lice in an inconvenient place. We aren't even losing territory or troops particularly, only patience.

The Great Catsby has Spoken

[Ironhawk]

FAJ said:
Haha, the magic of TienChi is pretty ridiculous. A remote spell that kills over 50% of my troops gave me a good grin. I didn't even realize that magic got that powerful. What the point of making an army? or even playing the game?

Luckily, I survived long enough into this game to at least learn something. It was a good first try at Dom3.

I'll set myself to computer after I finish transactions and promises to other players.



It sounds like you are up against Murdering Winter, from TC's post below. Honestly thats not even the most powerful spell, imo, as it has good counters. The best and easiest counter is just to not put huge numbers of men in any given province. Murdering Winters/Fires from the Sky/Beckoning are great army-killer spells, but they have a heavy cost in gems. If you do not muster enough men in a single place they are not effecient.

So, break your armies up into smaller units and fight on a wider front. Deploy your SCs, who will basically be uneffected by this kind of spell. I know its really demoralizing when you take a major loss like this, but if you walk away now you walk away from an opportunity to gain end game experience. Not to mention that it is bad form to set your empire to AI unless you are down to just a couple of provinces. If you are really intent on leaving and your empire is still relatively whole you should find a replacement.

[AdrianP]

As far as pd is concerned, there was more there than just pd. I havent even scripted my mages yet, or organised my troops into proper formations, the time deadline forced me to rush things with just minutes to spare.

Truth be told, I don't even want to attack you, I just want the game to be over and go out with a bang. And I rather do it this way then going AI or turning the reins over to someone else.

[FrankTrollman]

We don't believe your lies.

The Great Catsby has Spoken

Anyway, a good example of how to get around the Murdering Winter problem is Ulm's army - it is composed of Cold Resistant Barbarians (their cold resistance is pretty dissappointing compared to Murdering Winter, but still), and Constructs. Clockwork Horrors don't get affected by cold at all, so they give a lot of resistance to the army against that attack. (a number of constructs get hit instead of regular troops and those hits are negated in full). For 50 gems, it just isn't worth hitting an army of Ulm with that.

-Frank

[FAJ]

Eh, it was my first game. I would rather die and learn something than waste my time playing in a game where I didn't have a chance of being the winner.

To be honest, I think you, Frank, are too experianced to be playing in a newbie game. As if to make matters worse, you boast everytime you beat a nation who not only is smaller than you, but also less experianced.

I don't know if your attempting to act in character or anything, but acting like a jerk, even in character, doesn't enrich the game for anyone, so I don't know why you do it.

I will thank you again, though, for the lesson in the game. It taught me more about the game than the manual ever could.
But I still don't understand why you think I broke an alliance or anything. I was under the impression that alliances had to be agreed on and in dominions people are considered enemies untill proven friends? You sure didn't charge me for the artifacts at your posted ally prices.

As for turning myself over to AI, I didn't realize it was bad form to do that. Tien Chi will have 90% of my lands within 5 turns anyways, so the situation isn't one that a replacment player would have fun with. Ill stick around and see if I can manage to win a single battle.

[AdrianP]

FrankTrollman said:
We don't believe your lies.

The Great Catsby has Spoken



-Frank



Ha Ha, Her Most Magnificent knows the truth is wasted on such a decadent people.

----

I am really surprised that everybody has such low research. I know this a newbie game, but I thought everyone would be higher.

[FrankTrollman]

To be honest, I think you, Frank, are too experianced to be playing in a newbie game.



I'm not sure how that could be possible. This is my first multiplayer game of Dominions 3. In fact, I've never completed a game of Dominions 3, I've never seen the message that says that you have won or lost. And it's my first game as Tien Chi: Spring and Autumn. Actually, it's my first game as any era of Tien Chi, but I gather that the others aren't that similar anyways.


I don't know if your attempting to act in character or anything, but acting like a jerk, even in character, doesn't enrich the game for anyone, so I don't know why you do it.



There's a couple reasons. The most important is that Tien Chi is based on early China. Pre-Chin China even. So I've decided to put into practice the diplomatic decisions of Emperor Wu:

"Never let a barbarian know he has something you want. Value nothing that comes from far away."

That became Imperial Doctrine under the first Emperor of Zhou, and since we're during the Spring and Autumn time period, that seems immensely appropriate. It's a studiedly political stance. By refusing to acknowledge that other empires have anything you fear or value, the Empire of China was able to inflate the appeal of their own goods in distant lands.

But there are also occassional deliberate choices made about what boasts and threats we send out. For example, the infamous "Witch Kings are not Gods!" speech was made to hide the fact that at that moment my third army was out of position - there was literally nothing standing between his raiding force and the deeper bowels of my empire. He could have marched virtually unopposed all the way to Abysia, burning as he went. So we made a speech about how there was no avenue of escape in order to bluff Sauromatia into sending his troops to attempt to force a path back to his home supply lines - a path which was thouroughly closed.

Similarly, when we announced that we were going to invade Arcocephale in a few turns if they didn't negotiate we were pretty sure that they were just going to attack instead - and we timed the release of that demand with the movement of a group of troops into the border province knowing that we could move more troops into that area than Arcocephale already had in the adjacent province. The result was a stomping.

So yeah, there are some calculated bluffs thrown in there to attempt to draw opponents into "proving us wrong" in ways that aren't actually to their advantage. But mostly it's a pastiche of historical Chinese diplomatic posturing. Even the trade in items for gems mimics the Chinese demand for payment only in gold. (But in Dominions the most valuable currency is gems, not gold, so we use that instead).


But I still don't understand why you think I broke an alliance or anything.



You didn't. Ulm did, and they'll pay! Grrr. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Helheim honestly did announce their invasion of my lands. Arcocephale, Sauromatia, Yomi, Abysia, and Ulm did not. Abysia and I eventually made a peace settlement of sorts and that particular war ended with no hard feelings and relatively few casualties.

Tien Chi would be completely happy with accepting an alliance with a "barbarian" nation and attempting to declare a co-victory. Honestly, I can't imagine wanting to play this game to the bitter bitter end. I think I prefer the Victory Point model being used in the other games I'm playing. At least that has a fixed ending in sight. Unfortunately, Ulm decided to "go out with a bang" and attempt to burn my capitol to the ground.

-Frank

And here's the in-character bit to Ulm:

You will find now that you have passed our wall that it will be difficult for you to make progress, harder still to take your spoils back with you. As you approach the heart of our nation, know also that you approach our labs and and our forges. Even now our armies reposition to hold you fast.

These are the lands where our magics rule, and you will tire quickly. Every turn we can distract you, delay you, misdirect you is another turn that we move closer to defeating you. Do you think that you can stand against the armies that destroyed Yomi's forces? If you turn back now, I will spare you their wrath.

The Great Catsby has Spoken

[Foodstamp]

I think what happened in this game is we had alot of people new to multiplayer dominions put against veterans of dominions 1 and 2 multiplayer that used the excuse "This is my first game of dominions 3" to beat up on some people totally new to the series.

I don't think this particular game was meant for veterans of other dominions games that were new to dominions 3, or the game would have been open to anyone seeing how it just came out a few weeks before the nooby game started.

[Shovah32]

I never claimed i was new, i simply admitted that i suck and was allowed in.

And as for me and tien chi having a war, it was more like 2 assasins killing 2 mages then making peace... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ironhawk]

About VPs: I explicitly opted not to use VPs in this game so that you guys would have to play to the bitter end. If you'd ended too early then you never would have gotten experience with spells (and the tactics needed to defeat them) like Murdering Winter or Ghost Riders. Anyway, in games w/o VPs, what normally happens is that one nation comes pretty clearly out on top. Then you can discuss with all the players whether you think your position is unchallengable, particularly with the #2 player. If there is agreement, you just declare someone the winner.

As for Frank or Shovah being too experienced for this game: It's possible that they were. There is no system for ranking dominions players or evaluating thier experience. I had to make a judgement call and I made it, so that's that. In the end what matters is the experience you gained as a result of this game, which i think was pretty huge for everyone.

[Foodstamp]

Well being thrown up against better players taught me alot. The veteran players that snuck into this game had a firm grasp of magic usage that I hope to learn from. In my future games I plan to use some of the strategies I saw implemented in this game or I heard talked about on this thread.

So while the first nooby game of Dominions 3 may be won by a veteran player, I think that if all the true noobies take something from the game, we end up coming out ahead.

[FrankTrollman]

We had our first big fight with Ulm, and it generally went our way as far as the army vs. army portion went.

The take-home message is that having all of your troops do one thing is ultimately futile. One tactic, no matter how good, no matter how strong, no matter how many troops are behind it - can be adapted to.

Ulm sent an army composed of essentially four things:

Clockwork Horrors (240 units)
Archers (250 units)
Hydra Hatchlings (26 Units)
Warrior Smiths (26 Units)

And various sundry minor participants to round the totals out to 31 Leaders, 319 Normal Units, and 243 Magic Beings. It was slaughtered. I don't mean just that it lost 10 Leaders, 229 Normal Units, and all 243 Magical Beings - I mean that it managed to kill no leaders, no undead, and only 36 normal units (out of 151) and 1 Magic Being (out of 6).

What went wrong? The problem here was a lack of versatility. Because there were so few types of units on the field, the forces of Tien Chi were able to make a battle plan around the upcoming onslaught and severely undermined his army because it hinged on only a few effects.

Things in Dominions have counters. No exceptions. So an army of Clockwork Horrors can be countered. And army of 240 Clockwork Horrors can be countered the same way. In this case it was by casting:

Quagmire
Curse of Stones
Swarm

The combination was devastating. His Clockwork Horrors moved less far because of the swampy ground, gained extra fatigue because of the Curse of Stones, and were delayed for precious turns slicing through Dragonflies. As a result, they ran out of Fatigue before they even saw battle with my main army. When they were finally trampled to death en mass by the chariots, they didn't even hold up their hands in resistance.

Next up, the archers. A quarter of a thousand Ulmish maidens of the bow. Backed up by Fire Arrows even. Unfortunately, an entirely archery dependent army is of relatively little use when faced with an Arrow Shield. Enter Arrow Fend, a spell that grants Air Shield to the entire army. We cast it on the first turn.

The army of Ulm was destroyed. Cleaning it up won't be easy or fast, there's a hundred units retreating in various directions,a nd he still has Bane Lord Super Combatants wandering the lands killing Province Defense. It's quite an offensive.

But because the main thrust was simply the same thing repeated dozens or hundreds of times, a small collection of strange magics was able to slay his entire army with negligible losses.

The take home lesson: don't put all your Faith in one thing. Any thing. I don't care how good it is. I don't care how strong it looks. I don't care how easy it is to reiterate the same tactic over and over again. There's a counter for everything. And if your entire army is the same, your entire army can be countered by one thing. A throw together force of Tien Chi militia can analyze your force composition and put up a force less than 40% your size and slaughter you down with losses over 13 times what you dish out in return.

Really it's the same problem that Yomi had. An army of 300 copies of one thing isn't six times better than an army of 50 copies of that same thing.

-Frank

[FAJ]

What could Yomi have done to stop you from casting murdering winter? What troops does Yomi even have access to to combat your forces? What could I have done?

I didn't have any good independants, or if i did the province had 12-20 reasources. My castles can only produce chaff troops of hp9 and low prot, or archers of the same quality. That, or incredibly overpriced Oni, which have 6 or less protection anyways. We get no sacred troops; our battle mages are either 500 gold a piece, or the Hannyas which burn and fatigue our own troops!

I understand WHY my armies were easily beaten, just not HOW it could have been avoided. Especially given my ignorence of the magic system and available spells.

[FrankTrollman]

What could Yomi have done to stop you from casting murdering winter?



One of your Forces was 1/3rd Undead, that's all Cold Immune. You also have access to a lot of Earth power that could have thrown up some Crushers, Clockwork Horrors, or Mechanical Men. Murdering Winter does a small amount of Armor Negating cold damage (7+ Cold Scale according to the manual) to a percentage of every troop in the province. It costs fifty gems, so it's not a good deal unless it's going to kill a lot of units. Now in this case, you had a large army in a cold province that was almost all Bakemono - that's a perfect target for that.

But if you'd split things up, so that you had three armies instead of 2, so that each army had a mixture of Onis, Bakemono, Undead, and Constructs, then there wouldn't have been a good target for Murdering Winter.

That's ultimately what I meant by keeping it a secret so that you wouldn't have a chance to repossition your units. A mixed force or a divided army would have taken pretty miniscule losses against that spell for the cost (remembering that every Murdering Winter is essentially a Troll Court that I don't have).




My castles can only produce chaff troops of hp9 and low prot, or archers of the same quality.



Don't put your faith in archers alone. Your castles also produce Oni. In fact, your nation is called "land of the oni" for a reason. The Ao Oni are immune to murdering Winter, but even the Aka Oni has 14 hit points - that means that he'll live through even the nastiest cold snap.

Of course, the Bakemono Archers themselves only cost 8 gold. An army of 300 of them really is only 2400 gold worth of troops. That's less than 20 Wind Riders, and you'd already heard that the armies of Tien Chi went through that with only horrendous losses. To a very real degree, you get what you pay for. And Bakemono Archers even in large numbers are not a large force by the standards of the day (compare: Ulm is throwing around an army that had 250 Ulmish Archers and 243 cold immune constructs - that's an army).

In short, you weren't attacking with an army the caliber of the armies that were marching around on your border. It wasn't science fiction enough, it wasn't diverse enough, and it wasn't nearly large enough for the amount of troops it was looking at.

Finally,
the Hannyas which burn and fatigue our own troops!



I actually think that Yomi is all about the Hannyas. The heat aura is an advantage if you turn to magical troops or segregate them from the rest of the army. As mages, they don't have to stand in the middle of a blob of troops, they can be way in the back, or over on the side. Equipped with a Skull Staff they can mad spam skeletons and equipped with a Flaming Skull or Helmet they can Flaming Arrows the army or rain Falling Fires on the enemy. At 40% the cost of the Dai Oni and producable from any Castle, my initial analysis is that they are the soul of the Yomi army (but I don't really know for sure because I didn't even open up the Yomi position to look at what it does until you invaded me).




I understand WHY my armies were easily beaten, just not HOW it could have been avoided.



Part of it is jusging where and when the major battles are going to take place. When you first started screaming across the border, you could probably take any province with 100 guys and some sharpened sticks, so really you could just do that. Once you believe that a major battle is going to take place, your choices are to either: Avoid the battle altogether and simply continue to take territory with small armies while ceding provinces to large enemy forces.
or
Consolidate all of your forces into the province you believe a major battle is going to take place.

Indeed, since you controlled the planes section between the two major battle fields, it was entirely within your means to have moved some or all of one army group into the other province - forcing my forces to fight the entire force. The divide and raid plan relies entirely on the fact that that is an available strategy. Since one team could combine arms, the defender (that's still me by the way) has to alot for that fact and cannot afford to split forces to fight small battles.

Movement occurs after the magic phase, so spells like Mind Hunt and Murdering Winter apply only to the troops that aren't moving into that province.

-Frank

[Saarud]

Warnings... loooong post

Finally I Agartha are dead. Maverni and Atlantis quite effiecently cut me down and eliminated all my dominion. My 25 or something priests had no chance to preach to the people about me as both Maverni and Atlantis outnumbered my priests. My last action as I knew this would be my last turn were to breake the siege and try to do as much damage as possible to Maverni. I was owned on the battlefield as Maverni used much better tactic than me but atleast I took some 118 or something with me to my grave.

I started the game in Aklavik Pass very near the northwestern corner. I thought that was good but quickly I had to realize that it was very crowdy up there. I ran into Maverni and Yomi south of me early and I immediatly started to negotiate with Maverni about an alliance against Yomi. At first I thought the negotiation was going good but after a few months the messenger from Maverni was not going to Agartha anymore.

Meanwhile I was attacking hard eastwards and I reached Sauromatias capital at the time when he was stalling so I tried to seize the moment and attacked the capital... well I was trashed by the PD and a new player took control of Sauromatia. He pushed me back immediatly... meanwhile I had started negotiations with Yomi as I realized that Maverni was planning to attack me. Yomi and I agreed to a NAP but he warned me about attacking Maverni as he told me they were allied and he would have to take his side if I was the aggressor.

Also Yomi is a good negotiator he asked for 2 provinces that bordered his capital (I took them because of Yomis big mistake of sending a Dai-Oni to his death while the troops were hiding away) as I still had no friend I had no choice but to agree. I realized that my war with Sauromatia would be hard for me to fight because of the long supply route and that Maverni was gathering forces on the border, so Sauromatia and I agreed to a border and now I could concentrate on my southern would be enemy Maverni.

I still couldn't make the initial attack due to the pact between Yomi and Maverni so I started gathering troops. Since my territory was small, only 5 provinces I got way to small income. I had to push the taxes up to 200% while patrolling. This I did in all my provinces and actually had the highest income of all for a couple of turns (I killed approx 9000 of my starting 30000 population in my capitol over the years as they tried to rebel against my high taxes). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Maverni made the first move and attacked and totally trashed my army in the first battle. He used loads of Eponi Knights on the flanks where I had 0, zero, zip, nada troops he slaughtered my army quite good. Quickly I sent more troops to the front. Atlantis showed up and become a new bordering nation. I quickly new that he was allied to Maverni as he refused to help me against them. Now I had two 1 province fronts, 1 against each of them.

Many battles was fought and at one time I really thought that I had a chance of pushing them back far. In the end... I lost... but that you already know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So did I learn anything? Sure did I learned more in this game than every SP game I have played in Dominions 3 and Dominions 2 DEMO.

I want to thank FAJ (Yomi) and llamabeast (Sauromatia) for being good neighbours I also would like to thank Sheap (R'lyeh) for all the friendly messeges but most of all I want to thank my nemesis Xox (Maverni) and Darrel (Atlantis) for making this game fun. There actually was a moment I though I could advance on you... but you quickly killed that dream. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Bye all

[FAJ]

Thanks Frank for the analysis. It is my hopes to give you one good (or at least better informed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) fight before I am dead.

By the way, is it possible to kill Oni with murdering winter? At most its one attack on them, and they all have a double life if they die.

[Shovah32]

Abysia has joined the 'we hate tien chi' group and will be attacking as soon as our NAP is over.

[Sheap]

Saarud: You sort of got a raw deal with the sub (which was me at the time) taking over right before you were ready to attack the Sauromatian capital. On the other hand, if you are attacking a staling player, you need to move fast - they might return, someone might sub for them, and it's not like they're going to defend themselves.

Edit: I have no idea how Ulm consistently gets their turns done, like, 30 seconds before the timer expires http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xox]

Saarud you were a very very tough opponent. I could not understand how you had such a huge army with just 5 provinces. But then i figured out about the patrolling when i saw the population left in your capitol. And you never gave up and even attacked out of your capitol at the exact same time your dominion waned.

You never ever gave up and did all you could as long as you could. Next time i hope to be on your side. Both of us realized what a tough opponent you were and tried to make peace with you even though we knew we could win. I I understand why you refused. this was a very crowded game wiht close start positions.

Through victory and defeat you were a very good opponent in skill and most importanly in civility and good humour.

We put up many monuments to the brave people who once lived in these lands. although we also talk about how cruel these agarthas were to the local populace with their oppresive and deadly taxes

I salute you and your brave Agartha.

Xox

[Xox]

NOt sure how much skill it took to defeat ulms army, after attacking Tien Chi I think he went stale last turn and seems to have gone stale this turn also. Two turns in a row.

[Xox]

they are doing their turn just before the turn timer? Ok, strange though.

[Sheap]

I may not be a newbie, but I sure am doing a good job pretending to be one. Yeesh.

[FAJ]

hmm, somewhere along the way from 3.00 to 3.04 the price of Oni dropped http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif. Biggest troop ones went from 65 to 50 and the aka oni went from 30 to 25.

[Shovah32]

Too bad that didnt happen earlier eh?

[FAJ]

Does air shield affect 'throw fire'?

[Kydorias]

Frank, I have a question about the Ankh effect (and spell) Life After Death. Once the battle is over, do you still have the reanimated Undead troops in your army? Or do they disappear after the battle is over?

I remember having the Ankh in some SP games and I don't remember the reanimated troops remaining in my army after the fight was over.

[Shovah32]

@kydorias:I dont think they stay so i will say no though im not 100% sure.
@FAJ:im not sure, it seems like it shouldnt since its fire but it seems like it should since its a missile, you'd probably be best to test it for yourself.

[FrankTrollman]

I am 100% certain that creatures brought back with the Ankh persist after the battle. Furthermore, Souless do not get kicked out of their command positions even if the character couldn't command them and Undead Priests made in this way can animate the dead.

It's pretty sweet.

-Frank

[Shovah32]

yea, the ankh is a great artifact.

[Sheap]

Finally playing my turn now... sorry guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kydorias]

Hehe, no sweat.

[Shovah32]

So guys, ive been away from the computer a few turns and cant connect to the server, how much has tien chi stomped my head in?

[Sheap]

heh, I actually don't think you staled at all, the power has been so bad that the game really hasn't been progressing. When power comes back, though, you'll be the only one left to play.

[Shovah32]

I have one thing to say: YAY!

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Whollaborg]

Any news for us about the server? I have not been able to connect for a long time..
-Whollaborg

[Shovah32]

AFAIK his powers still out.

[Sheap]

I have power and hopefully will have Internet tonight. Yay.

[Sheap]

Server is back up. Only Abysia left to play.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Sheap]

oops. Forgot to turn on quickhost. Will fix now.

[Shovah32]

I knew i shouldnt have send my fireking in without phoenix pyre http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Shovah32]

Dammit, who got my king?

[FAJ]

Probably TienChi http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

I will when he is feeding me my own ***.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

I thought it would kill less than what it did. i am satisfied with a combined ~100 kills. I can keep doing it.

Not gonna give me any credit for wolven wintering my own province a few times to increase the effect? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Whollaborg]

Just wondering if we could stall the game a bit as i am traveling north for few days before i am able to process yet another turn. 20 hours delay would be appreciated greatly.

Cheers,
Wholla

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

the province I hit with winter had no cold before you moved in and had 2 when i cast. I thought cold scale affected murdering winter?

[tibbs]

It should affect it. I don't have the book in front of me but I thought the cold scale was the multiplier in the formula or the cold scale was added to the total damage.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

the turn I cast it, it had 2. Maybe cold scale changes before spells go through?

[Sheap]

Deepest apologies, my friends. The problem with corrupted turnfile uploads has been resolved, along with the problem of me not having internet access over holiday after all. The game should be restored within 8-10 hours.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[llamabeast]

So guys, what's happening? It's _ages_ since I got crushed by T'ien Ch'i, but it seems like the game's still going on, is that right? And Yomi's still in it as well? Seemed he was doomed when I lost. So who's winning now? Has there been a confrontation between Vanheim and T'ien Ch'i?

[FAJ]

theres been like, 2 turns since you lost.

My lands have gone to marverni; and Im gonna try and give tienchi a decent battle or two before I go.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Sheap]

It's this:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=482846&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[Sheap]

By a miracle I have revived the game. Abysia's turnfile as well as mine were destroyed in the process. Abysia should replay his turn, changing some order or another, as his turnfile seems to be the one that caused the crash. And mine was lost because I screwed it up. I will not have time to replay it now but should be able to do it in much less than the allotted 24 hours http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

There, my turn is re-done.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

Regardless of how inconsequential the battle was to my survival; winning against TienChi in one tiny instance, regardless of how stacked it was in my favor, has made this game worthwhile. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

In retrospect, I should have remembered to take my units off of hold and attack, but I can't complain; My god somehow managed to survive.

Thanks for letting me live long enough to at least learn something about the game, Frank. you can stop holding back now and take the rest of my stuff if you'd like.

[FAJ]

Also, whats the deal with Darkness? It says that it doesn't affect Demons or undead. But it did. That is kind of frustrating.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

In this latest version, they removed the darkvision and made darkness not affect demons. They botched the second part :\.

By the way, what does having a mage on research effect?

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Kydorias]

With all these Vanheim scouts my Lizard warriors have been capturing, my Necromancers finally decided to perform an autopsy.

Result: Glamour seems to cause testicular shrinkage.

[FAJ]

Thems fightin' words!

[Whollaborg]

Lizards,
Thou might try holding you double bladed tongues as the wellknown fact is that the reproductive organs of yours race consist only of slimy egglaying thingies.

Elsewhere; on the bottom of the seas,

Atlantian claylegged statues crumbled as Vanheim took retribution of Atlantian earlier excursion to the surface to bring mayhem into Vanheimian lands.
Old grudge is now avenged in full.

Military fall of their allies was very fast and Maverni started to plan stealing the provinces of Atlantis. We told them that by right of might those are all properity of R'lyeh and Vanheim but Maverni didn't heed.

We consider them breaking our non-agression pact as they attacked provinces that were clamed by us.
We hope that they realize their folly soon enough to withdraw away from the Atlantian provinces to allow our retaiking those and thus allowing starting negotations on terms of a new era of friendly relations.

We have no need of anything from Maverni who have been most considerate towards us in the past and thus have earned our gratitude and friendship in full.

Message to Tien Chi:
Your warmongering politics are driving you too far!
We witness your vast and terrible armies closing in with a cloud of death and destruction on your heels.
Lamentation of woodland women has not waned as the Abysia is being stomped next.

We declare that Vanherr Thanatos and Vanheim take steps to protect other races from the approaching hordes of Tien'Chi!

-Vanherr Thanatos

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Shovah32]

You realise i havnt preformed a single blood sacrifice all game right?

ps: missing a turn due to technical problems sucks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[FAJ]

Wait, whats wrong with some good old fashioned warmongering? Its all the oni have left! Leave it to the pretentious celestial types to demean our national pastime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

P.S. STOP CUTTING MY COMMANDERS ARMS OFF!

[Whollaborg]

Hah,
Many feasthalls across the Southern continent are filled with laughter that Tien'Chi words bring to us.

Never have the brave men heard such a humour and we celeberate and feast as we hear how low lies must the empire of eunuchs spread. They are filled with fear, let the friends facing Tien Chi rejoice!

-Vanherr Thanatos, with a bearded smile

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[FAJ]

Haha, you act as if my mages don't disobey what I set. You think i want them all to fatigue themselves and cast fire shield for no damned reason? They disobey about 50% of what i want, because they feel that fire shield is just the coolest thing a kid can do these days!

What does grip of winter do? My book says it does 50% chance of 5 AN stun damage. That would have really changed anything?

You know what would affect something? If darkness didn't affect demons, like it says in the description in game. and then if my casters didn't disregard everything I set. Wouldn't make a big difference, but it would be nice to play the game instead of rolling the dice and watching.

I suspect there is a version descrepency though, because I must not be seeing the same battle as you. You killed 4/11 of my Dai Oni and all my undead thugs. If that is what constitutes as a crushing like grapes at a harvest I can't wait to see what metaphors you use when you actually do something worth boasting about!

P.S. Why do my Dai oni recieve a -3 def. for weapon + shield combo.? All they are holding is the no-dashi two handed sword.

[Shovah32]

I thought it was listed as armour+shield combo?

[FAJ]

either way, they have a two handed weapon, why the defense modifier? They certaintly don't have a shield!

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[FAJ]

Stun damage automatically stops them? or just adds fatigue? Forcing half your army to be completely stunned every round seems kind of powerful.

So the shield negative they get is actually the armor, and the name is just a misnomer? That makes more sense than just a bug.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Kydorias]

Wow Shovah. That was the biggest chain reaction of exploding fire mages that I've ever seen. I had to watch that one over and over http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

Im guessing that was turn 67? I didnt watch all the battles there(i was hoping that with so many phoenix pyres some would respawn in the enemies army)

[Kydorias]

Yeah, I think so. And the explosions did take out quite a large hunk of my army. But it was worth it just to see the fireworks show.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Whollaborg]

Aye,
It was a bit disappointing as i somehow managed to stall my turn even thou it took couple of hours to properly plan the next moves. But alas the great Network-Moira intervened with her divine presense.

Cheers,
Whollaborg

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[FAJ]

Frank, did one of your wolves defect after our last battle? I have never recruited or summoned wolves before, I only get the ones that show up from the Oni, but somehow I have one in my garrison now.

By the way, what exactly happened in that battle? It looks like you were winning, you bore down on me with relitivly few casualties, then all of a sudden everone started running. Could I be using fear as a weapon against you?

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[FAJ]

Does a battlefield enchantment stop when the mage dies? I killed the caster of it. Maybe that explains why it stopped.

And by the way, it sucks that your anti-demon spell works on oni but pro-demon effects, like darkness protection dont.

[Shovah32]

I love massed phoenix pyres http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kydorias]

Haha, yeah that last battle went much better for you as far as the Pheonix Pyre tactic. Virtually every one of your damn exploding mages reappeared right in the middle of one of my attacking squads.

I'd make some pun about a Pyrric victory, but I'll refrain.

Anyway, some fun fights. But most of all I'm glad I finally rid myself of that squad of Abyssian Fiends that was causing so much trouble in my hinterlands.

On a side note, my Twiceborn spell reanimated one of my key mages with all 5 of his afflictions intact, including the disease that killed him in the first place. That kind of sucks.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Kydorias]

Well it would be nice if he decided to reattach his missing arm so he could carry a Skull Staff. Thankfully he at least still has his head.

[FAJ]

I wish my commanders could get their arms back too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif. Its some sort of cruel and unusual punishment that Catsby inflicts on his victims. He must collect the arms or something D:

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[FAJ]

My turns have become woefully short, but i understand the need for more time. I am cool with 48hr host.

[Xox]

I was about to ask the same thing. We are overdue, well overdue, for a change to a 48 hour turn.

XOX

[Xox]

3 days even better, really

[FAJ]

3 days is a bit long for the standard host time. I would be willing to put turns on hold for special circumstances, but 3 days encourages later play.

[Kydorias]

I understand and sympathize with Tien Chi and I believe that Whollaberg complained recently of having to stale once because of a lack of time to complete his complicated turns.

I certainly don't mind increasing host time to 48 hrs.

[Whollaborg]

I understand Franks plea for longer host time and agree that it should be altered.
I too find it very tedious to plan battle order for 100+ mages and masses of troops every turn even thou battling against the pretender Catsby has been costly for Vanherr Thanatos in terms of lives of he's subjects. (which by dying reduce the workload, thank Zeus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So I agree on anything under 200 hours,

Cheers,
Whollaborg

[Whollaborg]

Ah, once so mighty empire of Tien Chi falls to their arrogance. Endless warmongering has brought together all the nations of the world to face the assailant.

Empire that claimed to be the middle kingdom crumbles under the foot of Vanheim. Half a dozen parties of a mere handfull of our shock troops appearing deep inside the empire slaughters entire divisions of defenders with not much effort.
All this in the name of Vanherr Thanatos

Totally different awe is brought to the people of Tien Chi on their knees begging for mercy when our masters of combat teleport or fly in alone in the form of tartarean cyclops, titans, ice devils, golems and other not yet seen servants of Vanherr Thanatos.

Unopposed is the might of Vanherr Thanatos.

So said the True God

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Xox]

I dont think you get to determine 2nd place like that.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Teraswaerto]

Sorry to intrude on your game, but I would say that if someone quits while anyone else is still playing, they forfeit any position they might have.

The only way someone is declared winner, or 2nd place, or whatever, is if everyone still left in the game agrees.

[FAJ]

Although because this is my first game i am loathe to end it, I think I can agree than Vanheim takes 1st and TienChi second.

This game has gone on for a long time and I think it is past the point of being relevent. If it were based on VPs, the 2 leaders would gobble up the smaller nations left and try to get them quicker, but with no VPs, its a slow grind to the end.

I am all for ending it. (I will except last place of the remaining players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

[Kydorias]

I'd say its up to Tien Chi and Vanheim. If they both agree to #2 and #1 respectively, then game over. I doubt any of the other nations are in a position to refute such a declaration.

[Shovah32]

I AM! ok, maybe not..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xox]

Ok, if we are just declaring it, I declare i am grand winner.

Noone gets to arbitrairly say they are #2 or #1 or # anything. Especially when quitting the game.

For a player to quit when they think they are losing and say lets the end the game NOW and determine who won by how powerful we are now at this point THEY decide , which happens ot be just before they get crushed is really lame.

Not saying it was not a fun game and everyone did well and all. Tien Chi certainly covered themselves in glory in this game. I just got a serious problem with someone quiting just before they see defeat and saying lets tally up player positions NOW.

[Whollaborg]

I look ending of Dominions as a game from two different perspectives.

---

First point of view, (Dominions as a game that ends before all is settled)

It's 74th turn and I understand how Tien Chi's battle morale drops very dramatically by the sudden downfall (2-3 last turns) of their empire that has been ruling the province charts pretty much for most of the game. But as Franktrollman has cited Sun Tsu already he might be aware of the thing that the morale of combatants is the very key in winning (anyone).

I think that battles are really not won by fleeing and thus the fleeing participiant cannot declare they have won any of those who stayed on the field.
You all might remember this basic rule from the boardgames of old, like the Monopoly and such. We were all children and during that period we learned a lot of which we so very often seem to have forgotten a lot too.

---

Second point of view, (Dominions as a game in where there cannot be more than the one)

Ascending to the goodhood might be possible for only one of the pretenders?

---


I feel that one of the players cannot whistle the game over now - when he's morale drops and he finds out that there is an another (vastly more important life - i admit) and he "has to go".

I feel that both Kydorias of the C'tis and Xox of the Maverni are both in rather strong postion to dispute over the claim of Tien Chi beating them.
Hell, They even might be in a position to question my win! This should happen if we look at the game of Dominions in the sense that only one of the pretenders could ascend.
If they would like to try i would be happy to learn and teach a bit from them.

-Whollaborg

[Whollaborg]

If we continue i would like to see our generous host relaxing the the Prozeß -time of the turns.

[Teraswaerto]

Kydorias said:
I'd say its up to Tien Chi and Vanheim. If they both agree to #2 and #1 respectively, then game over. I doubt any of the other nations are in a position to refute such a declaration.



They may refute the declaration on the field of battle. If their opponents have quit, they win by default. Pretty simple.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[RamsHead]

Sheap is still hosting, right? Did anyone ask him to increase the quickhost time?

[Whollaborg]

I guess Sheap didn't even have time to increase quickhost time as Frank asked it in this thread on tuesday and it seemed to be agreed on wednesday and now it's thursday. Perhaps he's not informed even now?
(I am sending him a pm.)

I find it unreasonable from Frank to complain about the host already without him being able to respond.

Another unreasonable thing is to claim something but not willing to back the big words with deeds:
Perhaps you could give Sheap a bit more time and play just few turns so i could really show you how the beating is to be given as you seem not to be willing to surrender but would like to boast.
If i would have seen this kind of behaviour coming i would have attacked more ruthlessly and without as much caution with the attack to leave you a bit less to build your fantasies upon.

If your behaviour would be accepted we should hear Xox too and accept he's pretenders ascendacy to goodhood.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Kydorias]

I'll play to the end whatever the case may be. I know I'm having fun.

But I don't think the 24-hour turns have anything to do with Frank being "Denied". Rather, I suspect its more to do with the fact that Sheap got tired of this game a while ago and hasn't bothered to check this forum for several days. I also know that he's staled most (if not all) of the last 5 turns.

So I suspect he's just not up to par on what's going on with this particular game and he'll extend the turn hosting time once he gets Whollaberg's message.

Then everyone should have enough time to process turns and continue this game if that's what we desire.

[Whollaborg]

Frankly,
You claim that you could play 73 turns with 24 hours quickhost and when you lost you told you couldn't do it anymore a single turn.
Outrageous!
Furthermore, building false fantasies after cowardly deed annoy us.

Tien Chi's Nexus was down and its gem income was about a half of Vanheims already when you annouced that "you would be the second and run". Vanir, golems, tartareans and devils were taking your provinces around 10 a turn at the time and all the time more and more troops emerged behind your lines by teleporting, and flying. (...and Sneaking trough Maverni provinces by the way)

And in diplomacy you sucked even more,
Both nations of Ctis and Maverni which were already more powerful than your Tien Chi and both had promised to Vanheim to join in the war against Tien Chi. But then of cource your claylegged empire crumbled surprisingly easily and they didn't have to rise an arm.

Now you claim that you beated them, no way!

Please reconsider this and we would be happy.

[FAJ]

He already staled on a critical turn. There is no way he would bother comming back to this game. Its not worth the effort. I don't think he even cares enough to bother with claiming second place. There are no prizes for winning, and the situation of the game up untill now isn't going to be contested because he staled and everyone ganged up on him.

So, are you argueing that he shouldn't consider himself 2nd or that he shouldn't leave? There no way to to win either of those arguements. He will believe what he wants and he isn't comming back.

I would like to see this game end and another one come up again. I would be interested to see if the outcome would be the same now that everyone isn't a noob anymore.

[Whollaborg]

No FAJ, I don't believe he would start playing (i am neither attempting to convince him to play).
And he didn't stale the critical turns as those were turns he's position was taken and he's empire was crushed. He only staled when he saw that there was no hope for him left.

Instead of forcing him to "play" i'd like to see him withdraw those outrageous claims he's put up.

I am ready to finish this game if you others are too.

[Xox]

I am ok with the game going on or with declaring Whollaberg winner. No outrageous claims to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

Anything can still happen, I really believe that, with the wild magic and forces available at this stage of the game. On one hand it would be fun to try those out, but on the other hand Whollaberg is definitly in the commanding lead.

Shall we give it to him by acclamation? You have my vote for that or for continuing. Whatever the rest of you want.

[Kydorias]

If we did continue, it would have to be everyone vs. Whollaborg. I watched several of the huge battles in Anodyr with Tien Chi vs. Vanheim and I know I wouldn't have been able to win against either side.

So if we continue, lets all gang up on horsey-boy. Or if we don't continue, that's fine with me as well.

[Sheap]

I could have increased the turn timer but was not watching this thread those days. Sorry about that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I feel like a bad host. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif:(:(:(:(:(:(

What should happen now?

As far as agreeing to an ending, IMO it is more common in games without victory conditions to have to agree to one, otherwise the game drags on indefinitely. At some point, there is simply no point in continuing to play. IMO, if the only nations with a realistic chance of winning agree on a pecking order, then that's good enough. BUT that is no rule, just my perception. What constitutes a "realistic chance of winning" is usually apparent but not possible to define.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Vanheim can't win. Its not allowed. I have been plotting against Vanheim ever since they picked on poor Ermor. The rest of you gang up on Vanheim, okay.

[Xox]

In any case, Please increase tthe turn timer to at least 48 hours. NOW please. NOW!!!!!!! For the love of GOD NOW PLEASE!

thanks!

[FAJ]

I would rather it end.

[Xox]

Ok, then, i declare Whollaberg winner, any objections?

Are we agreed? please say yes or no.

On a side note, Of my own XOX awards:

I give Faj the Euroasian landmass award for the most successful defense, slowing and with help, finally stopping the tien chi Juggernaught.

Sarruud gets the most tenacious defense award although most of you may not have seen it.

Tien CHi wins the Evil Empire award for scaring the crap out of the entire map as the empire we were all afraid of.

I am sure abyssia and Ctis were worthy of awards, but I am ignorant of events in those far fabled regions, which we druids are pretty sure only exist in legend anyways.

[Whollaborg]

ok,

Lets end the game. And thank you all who played or commented the game. It was fun!

Cheers with no hard feelings,
Wborga

[Whollaborg]

Perhaps Sheap could give us all access to the master password to enable all view the situation concerning all of the nations left, if it is acceptable to everyone involved?

If Sheap would kindly do this he might be gentle enough to leave the situation for all to see for few weeks or so too...

[Shovah32]

Maybe i could have the award for most HoFers? I currently have 5 (dead) annointed of rhuax in there along with a heliophagi and my 572 kill cyclops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[FAJ]

I nominate myself for the player with the most armless commanders.

I agree Vanhiem wins. Im setting myself to ai now.

[Kydorias]

I nominate myself for the most effective diplomacy, which allowed me to sit around basically doing nothing and building up a huge army which also did virtually nothing since I had treaties with almost all my neighbors. So in our Newbie game which was supposed to let us learn strategy & tactics, I learned very little. Heh.

I have no problems with declaring Whollaborg the winner and offer congratulations for a well fought campaign. I'm still amazed the tables turned so drastically against Niefelheim.

--Kydorias, Lord of C'Tis

[FAJ]

I contest your best diplomacy.

I sat between two nations ready to go to war for land, when I had only 2-3 provinces for 5-15 turns. through diplomacy I outlasted my would-be conquerer. And somehow survived the game.

[Xox]

It was quite a fun game, with many epic campaigns and battles. Yomi did the most amazing turnaround, which is rare in this game, as usually when you fall, you keep falling. I too sat around a lot Kydorias, preparing for an inevitable battle that really never came. Almost went to war many times with several neighbors, but after my first campaign against Agartha (saruud) I managed to stay at peace until the end.

[Kydorias]

FAJ said:
I contest your best diplomacy.

I sat between two nations ready to go to war for land, when I had only 2-3 provinces for 5-15 turns. through diplomacy I outlasted my would-be conquerer. And somehow survived the game.

Ok, fine. Then I'll nominate myself for the Biggest Chicken award for having a great big powerful army and being too scared to use it.

[FAJ]

It's all yours http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Shovah32]

lol, i was in the same sort of position as kydorias and Xox, I was at peace with all my neighbours while i had a nice big army(many misbreds and a huge number of abysian heavy infantry and burnin ones combineded with many, many fire mages and indy archers with flaming arrows) that i was never quite happy enough with to use incase i lost it and got jumped by all my former allies(which happened).

I also nominate oceania(i think it was them atleast) played by upstreamedge for the most friendly award who, upon their death(despite me having no real relations with them) send me well ovr 100 assorted gems.

[Foodstamp]

Sounds like this game had an exciting ending. Gratz to all the end game participants http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sheap]

I'll go ahead and take the server down, then. I still have all the files in case the server needs to go back up for some reason.