Eater of the Dead

[NTJedi]

I recently noticed that the gem cost for eater of the dead has doubled... now 50 gems to summon while still needing 4 astral and 4 death.

Previously in DOM_2 this spell was not worth casting during games because not only were the magic paths difficult, but mainly the creature would turn independent upon reaching a very large size. I recall this blob also had low magic resistance.

So I'm wondering what has changed with this creature to make the cost double in price? Does anyone know?

[Tyrian]

No, he still have the default to turn independant and with the great increase in the number troops, he can be easely defeat.

[NTJedi]

thanks for the update Tyrian

Based on the 50_gem cost of this summon and it's overall potential I would say it's the worst summon in the game and probably even the worst spell in the game.

==============
1) Can anyone think of a spell which is a worse??

2) Any recommendations on how the spell and/or creature should be changed??

[dirtywick]

I think it would be cool if it was stealthy and would consume unburied corpses gaining more power each time and after eating so many it would go independant and attack it's current province. It would then be useful against nations with death scales that would have a big problem on their hands after a while.

Lame idea?

[Ironhawk]

Not worth 50 gems for something which might someday damage an unspecified enemy province.

Better to save your death gems and Ghost Ride the enemy into submission.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Even at 25 gems it isn't worth it. Too easily killed off. Compared to other summons, it just isn't worth it. Take Behemoth for example (in death), or Wyvern even (if you move on to air). You could spam Wyvern and overwhelm an Eater easily.

25 Fire gems could Forge an Incinerate wand and a Fireball wand. Two of each if you have a Hammer of Forge Lord or Global Forge enchantment. 4 of each if you have both. Much better use of resources....

[KissBlade]

NTJedi said:
thanks for the update Tyrian

Based on the 50_gem cost of this summon and it's overall potential I would say it's the worst summon in the game and probably even the worst spell in the game.

==============
1) Can anyone think of a spell which is a worse??

2) Any recommendations on how the spell and/or creature should be changed??



DArk Skies has never exactly inspired fear in me ...

[Ygorl]

Dark skies is actually pretty nice if you've got a strong dominion and you're fighting against guys with morale.
What's that? Your devils have militia-caliber morale? What? They're running away? Awwwww! Come back and fight!

[quantum_mechani]

NTJedi said:
probably even the worst spell in the game.


That is a highly contested title, frankly it doesn't even come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tyrian]

KissBlade said:

DArk Skies has never exactly inspired fear in me ...



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gifDark skies is one of the most efficient defense spell (with correct dominion) or attack spell (with a strong dominions). The loss of morale can affect badly an army.

[NTJedi]

quantum_mechani said:
That is a highly contested title, frankly it doesn't even come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Considering that it's 50 astral gems for one creature with low magic resistance that turns independent once it's moderately strong and requires 4 astral and 4 death just to cast the spell definitely places it near the top of worst spells. The spell is not only difficult to cast, but the creature is not even worth 8 astral.

Based on your unstable statement... please enlighten us on the MANY spells you feel are greatly worse.

[ologm]

Could you replace all eater of the death forms by that of another creature. Perhaps change him into a big demonic dragon.

[Sindai]

It should be pretty much the biggest, most regenerative creature in the whole game. If they're going to keep the cost and the turns-indep mechanic it should pretty much start with the stats of its largest form and go up from there.

[Endoperez]

Give examples. They mightn't be that good at balancing, but I've found that they listen to well-argued points. More protection? More regeneration? Few life-draining attacks strong enough to kill most humans?

[Nerfix]

It's the risk associated with it.

[Endoperez]

Not according to the comments here.

[quantum_mechani]

NTJedi said:

quantum_mechani said:
That is a highly contested title, frankly it doesn't even come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Considering that it's 50 astral gems for one creature with low magic resistance that turns independent once it's moderately strong and requires 4 astral and 4 death just to cast the spell definitely places it near the top of worst spells. The spell is not only difficult to cast, but the creature is not even worth 8 astral.

Based on your unstable statement... please enlighten us on the MANY spells you feel are greatly worse.

Ok, if you like...

Lets start with Wrath of the Sea. 70 gems and I can tell you, I'd take an eater of the dead instead in all but the most unlikely circumstances.

Then there are spells like Hand of Dust, when was the last time you saw it cast, let alone accomplish anything?

Or there is poor Curse of Stones, easily negated weak effect that hits both you and the enemy, and even costs gems.

Or take a look at arcane domination, scarcely easier to cast than master enslave, but you could play 10000 games without running into a situation where it would be more advantageous to cast.

And good luck finding a situation to use Blood Heal or Pain Transfer, by the time you need it your blood slaves are long dead.

I could conceive of using the eater of the dead, in a situation without access to any other summons using astrals. Not to say it's not very weak for the cost though, I wholeheartedly agree it needs a boost.

[FrankTrollman]

Just checking, it turns independent. Like, once, right? Does it do that during a battle or afterwards?

Regardless, if you were to have say, an astral/death mage on hand to take control of it, wouldn't you keep it forever?

-Frank

[Nerfix]

Thou shal not mock Hand of Dust for I have had a kitted ninja be killed by the Hand of Dust of an Attendant of the Dead.

[quantum_mechani]

Nerfix said:
Thou shal not mock Hand of Dust for I have had a kitted ninja be killed by the Hand of Dust of an Attendant of the Dead.

Heh, yeah, assassinations are funny things... I have seen such things as Fists of Iron and Sleep Touch come through in on rare occations too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Still, such things are pretty rare (particularly for a specific spell) and are unlikely to have the same impact on a game as being able to spend astrals on eater of the dead vs. if you had no other astral summons.

[Nerfix]

I've actually used Fists of Iron as a combat spell back in Dom I. It was a riot with Earth 9 Cyclops casting it.

[Corwin]

NTJedi said:

quantum_mechani said:
That is a highly contested title, frankly it doesn't even come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Considering that it's 50 astral gems for one creature with low magic resistance that turns independent once it's moderately strong and requires 4 astral and 4 death just to cast the spell definitely places it near the top of worst spells. The spell is not only difficult to cast, but the creature is not even worth 8 astral.




I agree. This spell may be not the worst, but it is extremely overpriced for what it does. Which is a pity, because the idea behind the spell is very cool IMHO.

[NTJedi]

quantum_mechani said:
Ok, if you like...

Lets start with Wrath of the Sea. 70 gems and I can tell you, I'd take an eater of the dead instead in all but the most unlikely circumstances.

Then there are spells like Hand of Dust, when was the last time you saw it cast, let alone accomplish anything?

Or there is poor Curse of Stones, easily negated weak effect that hits both you and the enemy, and even costs gems.

Or take a look at arcane domination, scarcely easier to cast than master enslave, but you could play 10000 games without running into a situation where it would be more advantageous to cast.

And good luck finding a situation to use Blood Heal or Pain Transfer, by the time you need it your blood slaves are long dead.

I could conceive of using the eater of the dead, in a situation without access to any other summons using astrals. Not to say it's not very weak for the cost though, I wholeheartedly agree it needs a boost.



Hand of dust doesn't cost any gems thus any gamer having to choose between casting hand of dust 4 times during a game or casting eater of the dead 4 times while still having access to other spells would wisely not waste the 200 astral gems to cast eater of the dead. So even tho hand of dust is not very useful it's definitely not worse.

Curse of stones... sure it hits both you and the enemy... its more of a spell for special situations. This spell is easier to cast and cost less gems. Not worse... not even close.

Arcane domination... just because an identical spell is better doesn't make this a bad spell. I'd rather cast two arcane dominations compared with wasting 50 gems on eater of the dead. Arcane domination is not good, but definitely not worse than eater of the dead!

Blood Heal or Pain Transfer... sure these spells have no real value, but again any gamer would rather cast any one of these spells three times compared with wasting 50 gems on one eater of the dead. Thus definitely not worse.

Wrath of the Sea is a bad spell, also near the top of worst spells I agree.

[NTJedi]

quantum_mechani said:
Still, such things are pretty rare (particularly for a specific spell) and are unlikely to have the same impact on a game as being able to spend astrals on eater of the dead vs. if you had no other astral summons.



Ether Gate is 90 gems, but it's easier to cast (conjuration_6 instead of conjuration_8) and you recieve some very powerful magic units and a powerful commander with magic paths.
I will gladly send one of my Ether Gate armies(90_gems) against two of your eater of the deads(100_gems).
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[quantum_mechani]

NTJedi said:

Hand of dust doesn't cost any gems thus any gamer having to choose between casting hand of dust 4 times during a game or casting eater of the dead 4 times while still having access to other spells would wisely not waste the 200 astral gems to cast eater of the dead. So even tho hand of dust is not very useful it's definitely not worse.

Curse of stones... sure it hits both you and the enemy... its more of a spell for special situations. This spell is easier to cast and cost less gems. Not worse... not even close.

Arcane domination... just because an identical spell is better doesn't make this a bad spell. I'd rather cast two arcane dominations compared with wasting 50 gems on eater of the dead. Arcane domination is not good, but definitely not worse than eater of the dead!

Blood Heal or Pain Transfer... sure these spells have no real value, but again any gamer would rather cast any one of these spells three times compared with wasting 50 gems on one eater of the dead. Thus definitely not worse.

Wrath of the Sea is a bad spell also near the top of worst spells I agree.

Well it depends how you define worst spell. My definition was 'What spell would I least care if it were removed from my spell list?'. All the spells I mentioned, I would pretty much not care at all if every other player had access to them but me. Not having Eater of the Dead on the other hand, I would feel was an ever so slight disadvantaged, since I could conceive of lacking better methods of directly converting astral gems to military power.

So, yes, the battlefield spells don't hurt as much to try cast them, but on the other hand have even less reason to _want_ to.

I also don't think you fully comprehend Curse of Stones uselessness. With mr easily negates, only maybe 1 out of 10 of mr 10 troops is going to be effected by it. So, you have no prayer of effecting any significant units like pretenders, and versus a large army, a small percent of the army will tire slightly faster...

That sounds pretty weak, but it would be a huge step up from what it currently does, hitting _your_ army as well. In other words, you have a spell with a highly marginal effect, that destroys whatever tiny advantage it might have achieved, by hitting your army too. If it took no research, 1e and only 1 gem, I still would never cast it. I think the 'special situation' you are thinking of for it is the insanity of the player considering it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[dirtywick]

Curse of Stones is a good spell in conjunction with Flaming Arrows and a bunch of archers. Machaka is probably the best candidate for it. So what if it effects your guys too? If your shooting Flaming Arrows you kind of want everyone to stand around anyway, even your own guys.

It's not awful, not the greatest, but not awful.

[quantum_mechani]

dirtywick said:
Curse of Stones is a good spell in conjunction with Flaming Arrows and a bunch of archers. Machaka is probably the best candidate for it. So what if it effects your guys too? If your shooting Flaming Arrows you kind of want everyone to stand around anyway, even your own guys.

It's not awful, not the greatest, but not awful.

You do realize that it doesn't actually stop the units from moving, just adds to encumbrance? Flaming arrows is an extremely potent spell, I would advise trying it without the curse of stones and see how much difference you notice.

[dirtywick]

Each step costs an AP, and I thought that makes them move across the battlefield more slowly. Maybe it's just my imagination though.

[moodgiesanta]

Well as far as useless spells go I think we're all forgetting Raven's Feast. You pratically have to mass-pillage a capital province for it to return more death gems than you could get through alchemy. I guess it could have a use as Ashen Empire Ermor, but I killed around 10,000 people in a capital province and got only like 7 death gems back. And those dead bodies could have been an absolutely massive horde of soulless. It's a shame too because it could really have a lot of use in conjunction with the raiding spells of nature, you know, cast a spell at an undefended province, pillage and kill before the enemy armies can react, and gather up the dead bodies as death gems.

[KissBlade]

moodgiesanta said:
Well as far as useless spells go I think we're all forgetting Raven's Feast. You pratically have to mass-pillage a capital province for it to return more death gems than you could get through alchemy. I guess it could have a use as Ashen Empire Ermor, but I killed literally 25,000 people in a capital province and got only 7 death gems back. And those dead bodies could have been an absolutely massive horde of soulless. It's a shame too because it could really have a lot of use in conjunction with the raiding spells of nature, you know, cast a spell at an undefended province, pillage and kill before the enemy armies can react, and gather up the dead bodies as death gems.



This spell has my vote for worst spell ever. I would actually use Eater of the Dead to taunt someone or something. Plus the Dom III Eater of the Dead got a MR boost in dom III so it's not quite so weak to magic anymore. Not a great spell but heck it does beat Curse of Stone at least.

[quantum_mechani]

NTJedi said:

quantum_mechani said:
Still, such things are pretty rare (particularly for a specific spell) and are unlikely to have the same impact on a game as being able to spend astrals on eater of the dead vs. if you had no other astral summons.



Ether Gate is 90 gems, but it's easier to cast (conjuration_6 instead of conjuration_8) and you recieve some very powerful magic units and a powerful commander with magic paths.
I will gladly send one of my Ether Gate armies(90_gems) against two of your eater of the deads(100_gems).
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

That's a good point, it's a pretty unlikely occurance you would have the gems for eater of the dead and not ether gate. So that narrows it's margin of usefulness even further. I still rank the other spells as more useless, but not by a lot...

Oh, and yes, raven's feast at 5 gems is another excellent canidate.

[NTJedi]

Ravens feast should be moved as a level_1 spell where any level_2 air mage could cast with a cost of 3 air gems. Upon first reading ravens feast it sounds like a very useful spell.

Is it safe to say that "eater of the dead" is the worst summoning spell? Based on it's gem cost(50_astral), the difficulty casting the spell(4D/4S plus ConJ_8) and the creature which appears I would title "eater of the dead" as the worst summoning spell.

[KissBlade]

NTJedi said:
Ravens feast should be moved as a level_1 spell where any level_2 air mage could cast with a cost of 3 air gems. Upon first reading ravens feast it sounds like a very useful spell.

Is it safe to say that "eater of the dead" is the worst summoning spell? Based on it's gem cost(50_astral), the difficulty casting the spell(4D/4S plus ConJ_8) and the creature which appears I would title "eater of the dead" as the worst summoning spell.



Personally I don't even find Aquatic summons like Kraken worth the mage time ... that and I know there's some more crappy summons running around. Onis come to mind. =)

[Forrest]

This is a missed opportunity. Think of it.

A summons that becomes almost unstoppable then goes indy and has say a 60% chance to choose to attack your provinces. Leaving lifeless warped provinces in it's wake. Stopping it becomes your top priority but it is so useful that you summon it anyway.

A pain to program but it would be neat.

[Forrest]

It would have to become more powerful when it goes indy. Each province it eats should jack it's effect up. Till it starts destroying the provinces next to it. Gaining defences and attacks as it goes. Eventualy becoming a Indy pretender thug that has a chance to wipe out all life and unlife.

A new victory where the indy becomes God having laid waste to all others.

But a low level summons to start. Fraught with risk.

Can you see a multiplayer game with half a dozen of these eating the players in a unstoppable horror that could have been predicted and stopped if only the few had listened to reason.

I have read too much Lovecraft.

[quantum_mechani]

I should also mention that somewhere along the way it became a unique monster...

So even more reason to beef it up. This thing should give doom horrors a run for their money when it gets Unfettered.

[Forrest]

How about a insanity effect?

Non Holy commanders become useless in the provinces next to it at some point. You need blessed troops to go against it. Maybe protected mages.

A real nightmare that your normal troops run before. A worst case.

[Teraswaerto]

I think the Unfettered should have a global effect, madness, disease, ghoul attacks and plagues in all provinces, or something to that effect. Releasing it would be kind of like Wishing for Armageddon, or casting a spell like Utterdark. You could even extort people into giving you money or gems "or I'll release the Unfettered!". *manic evil laugh*

Kraken can be good since it's cheap in gems and packs a punch, in case you desperately need to get all the troops you can ASAP and there's nothing else researched. Not the best use of the mage's time if you have alternatives though.

[Shovah32]

I agree that the eater should get a huge boost. Since etherealness and high defence dont suit him he would need huge boosts in other stats so, for his final form how about this:
300 Health
30 Strength
20 Protection
15 Attack
5 Defence (a huge dead blob isnt exactly fast)
18 MR (otherwise he would be very easily killable, i would even consider raising it to the 20's)
30% Regen (for a total of 90 per turn!)
Recuperation
An AoE tentacle or 2, a few lifedrains and some sort of special attack.
Fear+15 (atleast)
Some sort of global effect

[Nerfix]

How about "Tentacle Rake" 3 attacks, armor piercing, 3 or 4 attacks with -6 str damage??

Another one would be it getting a Plague Cloud... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[Shovah32]

Or an ability decaying anyone who strikes him (banefire shield without the fire)

[Nerfix]

And/Or perhaps the Unfettered could spawn smaller Eaters of the Dead... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[Forrest]

How about he builds a type of "Void gate" in the province he kills. Then summons more of him and bizzare evils to guard him.Then when he has powered up and has a small army of summons he goes eating provinces.

Meanwhile One of him that he has summoned stays in the province summoning more evils till a second army is formed around him and he goes eating leaving a third him to repeat the process.

Any unit entering the "Gate" province has a bad chance of getting a affliction each turn until the gate is destroyed. Only a Mage with a special group of powerups or skills can destroy the gate with a high chance of death or being feebled.

If the gate is left alone it has a chance of spawning a new Eater and other evils every turn. Along with bad random events in surrounding provinces.

Damned if you attack and damned if you don't.

[Nerfix]

Sounds cool, albeit complicated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

Yea, might be a real pain to program but sounds very nice (or should that be nasty?). Just make sure nothing he spawns can get quite as strong as him.

[Taqwus]

Spawning additional Eaters of the Dead should be doable already, I think, given that 'monsters spawn other monsters' (ex. Vampire Lords, Thralls) is possible.

A large leprosy cloud and strong Fear would be appropriate, given that it's probably not too hygienic to be around it.

If we were feeling silly and very Diablo-ish, we might suggest a high-damage corpse-vomit attack, but...

[Nerfix]

I wonder if the Unfettered can move around on it's own...if it could, it could move around and spawn more of it's progeny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Would would become more than just bit of a MAD weapon... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Nerfix said:
I wonder if the Unfettered can move around on it's own...

It can't, and it's not likely to be changed.

[NTJedi]

I really love the idea and design behind this creature. It's just the creature is very weak compared to the 50 astral gems spent and the 4S & 4D needed for the summoning. I feel bad for any noobie player expecting to see a powerful unit and finds this lump of poop.

I like the idea of additional eaters being spawned. I know on the battlefield a unique artifact or a specific spell(life_after_death) allow killed units to appear as undead. Perhaps eventually the main summoned creature will be able to kill units on the battlefield which will reappear as baby blobs. The baby blobs can then grow and if they survive several battles they will eventually reach the size where they can create their own baby blobs.

[Corwin]

Forrest said:
It would have to become more powerful when it goes indy. Each province it eats should jack it's effect up. Till it starts destroying the provinces next to it. Gaining defences and attacks as it goes. Eventualy becoming a Indy pretender thug that has a chance to wipe out all life and unlife.

A new victory where the indy becomes God having laid waste to all others.

But a low level summons to start. Fraught with risk.

Can you see a multiplayer game with half a dozen of these eating the players in a unstoppable horror that could have been predicted and stopped if only the few had listened to reason.

I have read too much Lovecraft.





Very nice Forrest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Final game message "The Eater of the Dead have claimed dominion over ocean, land and the sky. The eternal dusk have descened over the realm. All other beings who were struggling to ascend to godhood were killed and, well..., eaten."

[Nerfix]

quantum_mechani said:

Nerfix said:
I wonder if the Unfettered can move around on it's own...

It can't, and it's not likely to be changed.

Saddness, what's the point of it then? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Nerfix said:

quantum_mechani said:

Nerfix said:
I wonder if the Unfettered can move around on it's own...

It can't, and it's not likely to be changed.

Saddness, what's the point of it then? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Well, if the unfettered stage were as uber as it should be, I imagine parking it on the enemy capital or likewise importent province could have some effect.

[Endoperez]

Huge number of attacks won't work because creatures can't attack multiple provinces without Quickness. However, AoE attacks would work. AoE life-draining attack would be NASTY!

[Shovah32]

Im guessing by multiple provincesyou mean squares http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif. And i know they can only attack one square, thats why he needs big fear, a nasty aura and possibly a damage shield.

[Dhaeron]

quantum_mechani said:Still, such things are pretty rare (particularly for a specific spell) and are unlikely to have the same impact on a game as being able to spend astrals on eater of the dead vs. if you had no other astral summons.


I don't think even that counts for the Eater. Before i'd summon an Eater for 50 gems i'd turn them into 25 death gems and get two Banelords or 50 longdead horsemen or heck, 2.5 behemoths. If you can summon the Eater, you can summon all of those as well.
I think it's a pretty good hint that a summon is really, terribly weak if you can alchemize the gems it needs and get something much better for them.
Ritual and non-ritual spells are hard to compare, but i say the eater of the dead is hands down the worst summon in the game and very likely the worst ritual.

That being said, the stealth idea is pretty good imo. Make the eater stronger at independent size (give it some more HP, and better regeneration, poison cloud etc. basically a natural thug if not SC) make it stealthy (and still grow) and reduce costs to 15 or maybe even ten. So, compared to ghost riders it has the disadvantage that you can't artillery cast it, and it needs to grow a lot before it has comparable strenght, but the advantage is that it stays in a province and needs to be killed to regain control. (and you could use it in an army too. Theoretically) Imo that'd be a lot more interesting than just turning it into a cost efficient standard summon. It'd be fun to have some kind of near-unstoppable rampaging monster you first feed up to decent size, then let it sneak into the midsts of enemy territory and let it loose.

[Ighalli]

I definately like the idea of adding stealth and making it spawn additional eaters when it becomes unfettered. As far as I'm concerned, the nastier the thing is, the better! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hopefully CB will make the eater properly fearsome.

[Sammual]

I would love to see the eater of the dead start off like it does now and grow to insane power levels after eating enough and breaking free.

[KissBlade]

Dhaeron said:

quantum_mechani said:Still, such things are pretty rare (particularly for a specific spell) and are unlikely to have the same impact on a game as being able to spend astrals on eater of the dead vs. if you had no other astral summons.


I don't think even that counts for the Eater. Before i'd summon an Eater for 50 gems i'd turn them into 25 death gems and get two Banelords or 50 longdead horsemen or heck, 2.5 behemoths. If you can summon the Eater, you can summon all of those as well.
I think it's a pretty good hint that a summon is really, terribly weak if you can alchemize the gems it needs and get something much better for them.
Ritual and non-ritual spells are hard to compare, but i say the eater of the dead is hands down the worst summon in the game and very likely the worst ritual.

That being said, the stealth idea is pretty good imo. Make the eater stronger at independent size (give it some more HP, and better regeneration, poison cloud etc. basically a natural thug if not SC) make it stealthy (and still grow) and reduce costs to 15 or maybe even ten. So, compared to ghost riders it has the disadvantage that you can't artillery cast it, and it needs to grow a lot before it has comparable strenght, but the advantage is that it stays in a province and needs to be killed to regain control. (and you could use it in an army too. Theoretically) Imo that'd be a lot more interesting than just turning it into a cost efficient standard summon. It'd be fun to have some kind of near-unstoppable rampaging monster you first feed up to decent size, then let it sneak into the midsts of enemy territory and let it loose.



The eater is stronger than two banelords, 50 horsies or 2.5 behemoths. This I guarantee you.

[Shovah32]

And less controllable, and easier to magic to death.

[KissBlade]

heh magic resistance 18 if I recall so not that easy anymore.

[NTJedi]

KissBlade said:
The eater is stronger than two banelords, 50 horsies or 2.5 behemoths. This I guarantee you.



Your guarantee is not so strong... I ran some tests on the eater of the dead. It's stronger than 2 banelords without equipment, but 40 normal archers with no help killed the beast with minor losses(less than 10). Not mentioned, but still an interesting measurement. Viewing the battle I estimate 30 archers could even have won.
Then I tested those 50 undead horsemen you mention which slaughtered the creature... another test revealed even 20 of the undead horsemen easily killed the creature with minor losses(less than 5).

Another weakness of the eater of the undead from my testing revealed that only one of these can exist within a game. If another is summoned then POOF the other vanishes the same as the DJinn. No testing was done on the behemoth.

The creature has been improved from dominions_2 yet my testing rates it's value at only 11 astral.

[Dhaeron]

KissBlade said:The eater is stronger than two banelords, 50 horsies or 2.5 behemoths. This I guarantee you.


Stronger in fight if it has reached his higher forms, yes. Better as a summoning? No. By that time he's near being uncontrollable already. Besides, i wouldn't put my money on the eater vs. the horsemen too soon, with the poor protection of the eater light lances hurt. And if we're talking eater vs. another summon not overall usefulness you can just summon a wight or two and let them kill the eater with a baneblade.
And i defninitly don't remember the eater being a really awesome summon in Dom 2, though he should've been if he's supposed to be decent in Dom 3 with twice the cost.

[johan osterman]

Go play arund with it. It has a few tricks up it's sleave that is not readily apparent.

[B0rsuk]

johan osterman said:
Go play arund with it. It has a few tricks up it's sleave that is not readily apparent.



It certainly has the ability to confuse newbies, and make them post frustrated threads on Dominions3 forum. So expect a steady flow of very short threads complaining about Eater of the Dead. It's a passive ability, and the effect lasts for about 2 years. * **

* assuming that Dominions4 is ever made, it will probably take about 2 years.
** unless the creature description is changed in one of future patches to make its strengths more apparent

[johan osterman]

Well it turns out it was bugged, so go play around with it some more after the first patch.

[KissBlade]

NTJedi said:

KissBlade said:
The eater is stronger than two banelords, 50 horsies or 2.5 behemoths. This I guarantee you.



Your guarantee is not so strong... I ran some tests on the eater of the dead. It's stronger than 2 banelords without equipment, but 40 normal archers with no help killed the beast with minor losses(less than 10). Not mentioned, but still an interesting measurement. Viewing the battle I estimate 30 archers could even have won.
Then I tested those 50 undead horsemen you mention which slaughtered the creature... another test revealed even 20 of the undead horsemen easily killed the creature with minor losses(less than 5).

Another weakness of the eater of the undead from my testing revealed that only one of these can exist within a game. If another is summoned then POOF the other vanishes the same as the DJinn. No testing was done on the behemoth.

The creature has been improved from dominions_2 yet my testing rates it's value at only 11 astral.



I think you should run some tests of undead horsies against some priests since that's what's going to happen to pale riders at that stage of the game ... I didn't mean to put all those units in the arena and say, "ROUND ONE FIGHT!"

[NTJedi]

KissBlade said:
I think you should run some tests of undead horsies against some priests since that's what's going to happen to pale riders at that stage of the game ... I didn't mean to put all those units in the arena and say, "ROUND ONE FIGHT!"



You did not say 50 undead horses verses eater of the dead, 20 militia and 5 priests. Your guarantee was eater of the dead was STRONGER than 50 undead horses... this was WAY wrong. Before you start giving your guarantee I recommend examining your exact words.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[BigJMoney]

I don't have all the knowledge you guys do, but my first experience with this creature was a real let down. I'll admit I didn't really know what kind of role it was supposed to fill, though. I'll try again after the patch, of course. I wish I could remember what killed it, but it was something surprisingly minor. I remember I sent it into battle with my obelisk pretender by casting stygian paths. The pretender just sat and cast bone grinding and other mean spells, but the eater got killed before the obelisk won the battle.

I agree it could use an aura. Leprosy was a cool suggestion.

=$=

[Kristoffer O]

Let it eat a bit first. Pillage your province if you want it to grow faster. It is somewhat broken and lack some of its fun specials, but that is fixed in the patch.

[Endoperez]

NTJedi said:
So this independent travels to different provinces on its own? That can be dangerous if it tunnels back towards its creator.



It seemed to be pretty random. It also went to an independent province, and joined the defenders. Light infantry and Unfettered fighting side by side really warms your heart. That might be just the disease aura, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[NTJedi]

Endoperez said:
It seemed to be pretty random. It also went to an independent province, and joined the defenders. Light infantry and Unfettered fighting side by side really warms your heart. That might be just the disease aura, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif



That's good news... I pray this trait becomes available to the mapedit and/or mod commands.
/threads/images/Graemlins/icon47.gif

I have doubts the creature is worth 50_astral... even after feeding it to full growth.

[NTJedi]

Kristoffer O said:
Let it eat a bit first. Pillage your province if you want it to grow faster. It is somewhat broken and lack some of its fun specials, but that is fixed in the patch.



Well during my last test if another eater of the dead is summoned the original vanishes, that's an achilles heel most other SCs don't have cursing them.
The 50 astral gems is a very steep price for a single unit which will eventually turn independent. Even tho the creature has become more powerful, I doubt it's worth 50 astral gems. I will run some more test battles once the patch is released which will include the larger forms for the eater of the dead.

[Nerfix]

So anyone tested it out yet?

[Endoperez]

Not reported yet. I'll see if I find out anything, but I'm not good at balance.

[quantum_mechani]

Nerfix said:
So anyone tested it out yet?

I have, I was unable to find anything making it significantly more powerful.

[Nerfix]

What are those insignificant things then?

[Johan K]

QM hasn't waited long enough or fed it long enough. He probably chickened out and placed it in an unpopulated province before it became unfettered even.

[quantum_mechani]

Johan K said:
QM hasn't waited long enough or fed it long enough. He probably chickened out and placed it in an unpopulated province before it became unfettered even.

Nope, I fed it all the way to unfettered, and sent it into battle in every stage.

[Endoperez]

Quantum didn't notice it moving on its own.


It is VERY hard to kill the Unfettered. When it's moving on its own, you can't ignore it. However, it still has few very big flaws:

1) It only does trample damage. It has very low AP for a trampler. Further, it can get Limp. It just won't kill things. They'll rout, of course, but that doesn't give it any corpses.
It will have MAJOR difficulties fighting ethereal, high-defense and/or regenerating creatures. Because it WON'T kill things fast, it might hit the turn 50 battle limit, and rout, and die.

2) It doesn't kill population. Pazuzu, Lord of the Plague Wind, has disease wind. Eater of the Dead doesn't. Making Eater kill population would fit it much better than a high-level mage that won't be spending ALL its time in enemy lands.

3) It starts battles with just 352 hp. I think that's due to even the Unfettered's base HP being 180. It does regenerate up to 1000+ hp pretty quickly.


It does have few nice abilities, though. Wonder how it "gets up to 1000+ abilities pretty quickly"? Hmm...

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/466728-temp.jpg

[NTJedi]

I'm currently at work...
Any screenshots of the unfettered stage and/or other stages?



Endoperez said:
Quantum didn't notice it moving on its own.




So this independent travels to different provinces on its own? That can be dangerous if it tunnels back towards its creator.

[BigJMoney]

Endoperez said:
1) It only does trample damage.



Does a trampler also use their normal attacks at the end of their movement?

=$= Big J Money =$=

[Nerfix]

No, they do not. So Eater's bewildering array of attacks is no use because it tramples.

[Ballbarian]

Not entirely true, as it would use the bewildering array of attacks against creatures equal to or greater than its own size. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Nerfix]

Not many of those around though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Endoperez]

Nerfix said:
Not many of those around though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



There are lots of size 6 creatures the Eater would be terrific against. Unfortunately, those will most probably avoid direct combat, and instead send smaller Bane Lords or Wights to do their bidding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[TirAsleen]

tested it with patch and its no good for 50 astral...30 seems about ok as a price.

that it goes independent makes it unique, but destroys the unit kinda. by the time you can cast it (conj8) you can win the game in many other ways. and this ione just is thorn in your empire sooner or later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif why pay for it?

[Kristoffer O]

Because it spreads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TirAsleen]

lol, no chance i could see it, it attacked 6000 undead when i tested it, would be more user friendly, if it would not attack the province first it came from, but rather a province next to it. And maybe some AI to protect its own existence too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif