Two questions

[UninspiredName]

1: If an assassin mind-controls his target via Charm or Hellbind Heart, does the target die or join your side? For conversation's sake, let's say you're beside an allied province.

2: Dragons. They seem like a pretty good deal, a decent SC with (albeit poor) spellcasting abilities for 50 points, and a powerful area 3 attack. The Dominion 1 admittedly hurts, but it still seems almost too good to be true. (Could have something to do with the fact I like to play VQs) Anything I'm missing?

[Nerfix]

1. IIRC the commander joins you and attack the province he is in
2. They have distinct lack of slots.

[dirtywick]

UninspiredName said:
1: If an assassin mind-controls his target via Charm or Hellbind Heart, does the target die or join your side? For conversation's sake, let's say you're beside an allied province.

2: Dragons. They seem like a pretty good deal, a decent SC with (albeit poor) spellcasting abilities for 50 points, and a powerful area 3 attack. The Dominion 1 admittedly hurts, but it still seems almost too good to be true. (Could have something to do with the fact I like to play VQs) Anything I'm missing?



Dragons are a good choice if you are going for a single path bless and good scales. There are better pretenders for dual bless, rainbow, and for SCs as they have limited slots in their powerful form and opening a new path is expensive. Their biggest upside is they're cheap so you can get a high bless with good scales and keep it awake.

[Teraswaerto]

1. In most cases the target joins you, unless they die in the battle of course. Some creatures like Doom Horrors break free instantly after the battle.

2. Dragons can't really be effective SCs since they don't have enough slots for good magic items, but they can still do some killing with their breath attacks and good physical stats.

[Gandalf Parker]

A charmed commander fights in the province he is in. But if he is the last commander they had, then you get to watch his one little person rout huge swarms of his old units since they have no leader.

Dragons are also supposed to be a "surprise" if done right. your apponent sees that you have a "druid" and figures his attack based on that. Quite a surprise to have it turn into a dragon.

[Teraswaerto]

One thing to remember is that you can also use Charm and the like in normal battles, it doesn't have to be an assassination.

[UninspiredName]

Alright, thanks for the quick responses. I never thought of the lack of item slots, but wouldn't that render units like the Wyrm and Chimera non-SC-worthy as well?

And I knew you could use mind control in normal battles, I was just curious because of the 'fleeing from an assassination means death' thing.

[KissBlade]

The dragon is one of the best pretender picks currently in dom III so your assessment about it being a good deal is correct.

[NickW]

KissBlade said:
The dragon is one of the best pretender picks currently in dom III so your assessment about it being a good deal is correct.



Not really. The water dragon is one of the few inexpensive pretenders with any water magic available to most nations so it gets picked a lot for the w9 bless. Outside that dragons aren't too great. I'll take a moloch over a red dragon almost any game. I don't think I've ever played a green dragon since there are lots of pretenders that feature some nature magic so there's usually something more suited to what I'm specifically trying to accomplish.

[Gandalf Parker]

One of the problems with dragons over other limited slot pretenders is what happens to their items when they change form. I dont remember what it was or if it was fixed but I remember it being a problem. Its easy to forget and give him something he loses as a dragon.

[UninspiredName]

In all honesty, I don't really like SC pretenders as a whole. I was just curious. I suppose Moloch seems like a good deal, but it costs you some versitality in the cost and he seems much weaker in up-front combat. No AoE, weaker attacks, weaker fear, and less HP. Heat Aura and Imps would be useful, though.

And it's good to know shapechangers risk losing items. You'd think something like that would've been ironed out by the third iteration. Thanks!

[PDF]

I agree that Dragons are now very good, given that there are few (if any) other base F2 or W2 pretenders, plus they're cheap.
Their lack of slots don't make them very powerful in mid-end game, but in the early stages theay can be awake due to not-too-high cost (if single-9), and they're already "equipped" to deal with most indies, that's not necessarily the case with others pretenders.
BTW what's the most cost-effective F9W9 chassis, if it's not a Dragon ?

[Zen]

Solar Disk.

[Gandalf Parker]

OK you forced me to give this up before I could utilize it.

the Arch Mage of Oceania
Not only is it very efficient in gaining that double bless but you also gain 10 extra research points in making great use of all of that magic. And Oceania is able to handle some harmful scales to pay for it.

By the way, for other people reading this we maybe should mention that these are NOT the best pretenders for dual bless. They are only recommendations for a Fire 9 and Water 9 bless strategy. Other bless strategies can make use of some other very useful pretenders.

I also find it interesting that there seem to be all kinds of dual magic pretenders but no fire and water ones. Maybe Kristoffer should make a mental note to keep an eye out for a pretender that would fit that just to fill that hole.

[Zen]

What GP?

The sheer amount of points on Dominion alone would push you away, along with the fact that you have to push 1 path 8 steps and the other 9.

I must not get your strategy with it.

[dirtywick]

Zen said:
What GP?

The sheer amount of points on Dominion alone would push you away, along with the fact that you have to push 1 path 8 steps and the other 9.

I must not get your strategy with it.



It's probably near as good as most other pretenders going for a F9W9 bless simply because the Archmage is really cheap and the new path cost is cheap. I haven't done the math, but I think you'd probably wind up with around the same cost or more with most other pretenders, and in any case it's probably the best choice if you want to use that bless with Atlantis.

[Gandalf Parker]

Zen said:
What GP?

The sheer amount of points on Dominion alone would push you away, along with the fact that you have to push 1 path 8 steps and the other 9.

I must not get your strategy with it.


He has it. It seemed to cost the same. It took me -3 -3 -2 scales to get it either with Solar Disc or Oceania Mage. the OM costs 0 to get and 10 to add a magic path so that might be the balancer.

I remember testing blessing strategies in Dom2 and being surprised that sometimes a 0 cost 10 to start pretender was better, and other times a pretender with a head start was better. I might run those experiments again one of these days

[Zen]

Well no need to experiment, it's not better. It gets progressively worse the more Holy you want as well.

It costs 645 Pts to get Solar Disk to F9W9, with 3 Dominion
It costs 650 Pts to get a Water Archmage to F9W9, with 1 Dominion.

All other Human Pretenders are their 35-55 Pts worse, plus the Dominion stepping they have to get the Holy to where they need to recruit.

[mivayan]

Gandalf Parker said:
I also find it interesting that there seem to be all kinds of dual magic pretenders but no fire and water ones. Maybe Kristoffer should make a mental note to keep an eye out for a pretender that would fit that just to fill that hole.


An acid pretender? (that's the only water + fire spells iirc).

Could be that they dont want F9W9 any more popular/powerfull than it already is.

[KissBlade]

NickW said:

KissBlade said:
The dragon is one of the best pretender picks currently in dom III so your assessment about it being a good deal is correct.



Not really. The water dragon is one of the few inexpensive pretenders with any water magic available to most nations so it gets picked a lot for the w9 bless. Outside that dragons aren't too great. I'll take a moloch over a red dragon almost any game. I don't think I've ever played a green dragon since there are lots of pretenders that feature some nature magic so there's usually something more suited to what I'm specifically trying to accomplish.



Yes really. Note I said /one/ of the best picks. There are other good picks. Dragons are available however to all land nations. Dragons can turn 2 solo cheaply. Turn 2 solo is good. Enough said.

[Gandalf Parker]

Zen said:
Well no need to experiment, it's not better. It gets progressively worse the more Holy you want as well.

It costs 645 Pts to get Solar Disk to F9W9, with 3 Dominion
It costs 650 Pts to get a Water Archmage to F9W9, with 1 Dominion.

All other Human Pretenders are their 35-55 Pts worse, plus the Dominion stepping they have to get the Holy to where they need to recruit.


There is no better, there is only pros and cons.
Does dominion affect a bless strategy? I know its something to consider but does it affect this particular answer?

For those 5 points you get 10 more points of research to make good use of those high magics. Thats ALOT of research early on. And you get more equipment slots.

On the other hand Solar Disc does fly which can be very handy for some nations. There were some nice immunities on the disc also.

Both seem to be front-runners in this particular strategy.

[KissBlade]

Gandalf Parker said:

Zen said:
Well no need to experiment, it's not better. It gets progressively worse the more Holy you want as well.

It costs 645 Pts to get Solar Disk to F9W9, with 3 Dominion
It costs 650 Pts to get a Water Archmage to F9W9, with 1 Dominion.

All other Human Pretenders are their 35-55 Pts worse, plus the Dominion stepping they have to get the Holy to where they need to recruit.


There is no better, there is only pros and cons.
Does dominion affect a bless strategy? I know its something to consider but does it affect this particular answer?

For those 5 points you get 10 more points of research to make good use of those high magics. Thats ALOT of research early on. And you get more equipment slots.

On the other hand Solar Disc does fly which can be very handy for some nations. There were some nice immunities on the disc also.

Both seem to be front-runners in this particular strategy.



Oh come on now Gandalf, you must have played enough to know that you need at least some dominion points for holy to buy sacreds. Not to mention Solar Disc has more combat potential, better mobility. Also what the heck are you going to do with your most likely IMPRISONED archmage's 10 extra research? By the time he wakes up, it'll be a drop in an ocean.

[Graeme Dice]

Gandalf Parker said:
There is no better, there is only pros and cons.



Of course there is a correct choice here. The solar disc costs 5 points less and gives you a dominion of three instead of a dominion of one. A F9W9 Son of the Sea also costs 645 points, and is available to Oceania, so this is the no-brainer choice for the bless pretender.


For those 5 points you get 10 more points of research to make good use of those high magics. Thats ALOT of research early on. And you get more equipment slots.



It's not a large amount of research, it's about what a single mage provides you. For an underwater nation, who will rarely have to worry about early attacks even from other water nations, I don't see that as much of a concern. As for the item slots, the son of the sea gets the same slots, and can actually be used in the field.

[Gandalf Parker]

That makes sense. I guess the research points arent a big tradeoff. And Son of the Sea does look better.