What do I build to counter High def glamour units?

[Action]

This isn't another balance thread about van/hel heim balance in multiplayer blitzes (whatever those are). I've never played multiplayer.

Rather, it's a more basic question, about single player.

What type of units should I build to counter the AI Helheim's high defense glamour units. These units aren't really blessed, at least not often. It's not just the helhirdlings, the non sacred cavalry tear me up too, and the glamour infantry are pretty hard to kill as well.

For example, Last turn I had a block of Sarmation Amazons and the AI glamour cavalry (unlessed) will just ride up to em and kill them all, at like 4-1 odds, taking no losses, and often not taking a point of damage.

These Cavalry have 19-20 defense plus the glamour ability, so units with just a medium attack ability seem to be unable to scratch them. They don't kill my Amazons super fast, but they do steady damage and my amazons can't hit them at all.

I tried Cavalry, but the Sarmation cavalry has low attack as well, and gets torn up even worse than the infantry, since it can't gang up.

I've had my best success with archery, which deglamourize the infantry pretty well, but against the cavalry, it's tougher. They move very fast close into melee range quite quickly. With 11 prot and shields and the glamour ability, they survive the arrows quite well although they do take some damage, my troops take a lot too. The AI also has a 70% air shield bless, but lucky for me he doesn't actually bless them.

So, my question is, what troops should I be building to counter these guys? It doesn't have to be Sarmatia specific, just in general. I'm not losing thanks to my Gorgon, but this is the first time my troops have been outclassed this badly in quite a few games heh.

Right now the only way I've really had success is routing them with fear spells after killing their buddies, and my Gorgon pretender who could probably kill an unlimited number of them, hehe.

[Kristoffer O]

AoE attacks can be good, particulart poison, since everyone in the area is poisoned and starts taking damage. They should then loose their glamour. Hydras should be good in the case of sauromatia. It also has lots of attacks to maximize thce chances of hitting someone in melee.

Slingers are probably better than other ranged weapons cost wise. You only need one point of damage to get rid of the glamour, so the sling should be almost as effective as the bow (apart from having slighter chance of penetrating armors).

[PDF]

Try Fire Arrows asap, it should do the trick ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Arralen]

Kristoffer O said:
Slingers are probably better than other ranged weapons cost wise. You only need one point of damage to get rid of the glamour, so the sling should be almost as effective as the bow (apart from having slighter chance of penetrating armors).


.. but its quite hard to get that 1 point of damage, with the boosted shields which totally block missiles, and with the low damage and abysmal precisions from slings in general - they tend to miss a horde of LC right in front of them.

Poison is a very moderate use, as most nations do not have easy access to it, all those poison spitters and spells are as accurate as slings (don't hit the broad side of a dragon from point blank) - and most time the fast LC simple moves through the small poison clouds without getting harmed: They would have to stop for 1 turn within them to get poisoned.

Realistically, until the late mid-/ early endgame, against W9 or N9 or even F9W9 Helhirdlings or Vans there's only 1 thing most nations can do, unless they have access to high-level bladewind: Die gracefully ... :/

PS: And fire arrows do not help you to actually hit the buggers and get past their shields - but they are great to kill your own troops with "friendly fire" while those are swarming the Vans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Boron]

Action said:
So, my question is, what troops should I be building to counter these guys? It doesn't have to be Sarmatia specific, just in general. I'm not losing thanks to my Gorgon, but this is the first time my troops have been outclassed this badly in quite a few games heh.




Yeah the normal Van/Helheim troops rock too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

As a rule of thumb i noticed in my SP games that you have to outnumber them 5:1 at least to have a chance.
If you outnumber them that much their fatigue+swarming eventually kills them.

Missile troops help, and battlemages help a lot, especially bladewind and magma eruption are useful spells.

If you play a blessnation like F9W9 Mictlan you should not have too much problems with the AI van/helheim armies.

[Gandalf Parker]

Isnt there equip to see thru glamour?

[Shovah32]

Theres the eye of the void/void eye or something similar that see's through illusions though i thought it was mainly to dispell phantasmals/false horrors ect.

[Gandalf Parker]

My thinking was to give someone with high precision that eye and a good bow then tell them to fire at rearward. If anyone tests that, let us know how well it works.

[FrankTrollman]

It's construction 4 right? Not much help against a rush.

-Frank

[Shovah32]

The easiest way to take out glamour units (imo) is AoE spells like falling fires/frost.

[Action]

Thanks for the ideas guys.

My most effective strat so far was to use a black servant thug with an eye shield, he can't hit them very well but they can't hit him either, so they all blind themselves and rout.

I suspect this wouldn't work vs a f9 bless but it's pretty effective in SP.

[Nerfix]

Action said:
Thanks for the ideas guys.

My most effective strat so far was to use a black servant thug with an eye shield, he can't hit them very well but they can't hit him either, so they all blind themselves and rout.

I suspect this wouldn't work vs a f9 bless but it's pretty effective in SP.

Not unless you give him Fire Immunity... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif Well OK a human will be smart enough to whell in a counter to your thug.

[dirtywick]

Try a few Bog Beasts. In Dom 2 they had a poison cloud effect, and I haven't used them at all in Dom 3 but if they still do dispelling glamour could be their niche.

[DominionsFan]

PDF said:
Try Fire Arrows asap, it should do the trick ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Sadly only a few nations can use that spell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Corwin]

Arralen said:


PS: And fire arrows do not help you to actually hit the buggers and get past their shields - but they are great to kill your own troops with "friendly fire" while those are swarming the Vans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I think they do,a little. They make arrows magical, which should give it additional +2 bonus to hit its target. Not much, but better than nothing.

[curtadams]

Watching the AI performance with LA Vanheim has convinced me the glamour units are too good for the price. The last two times I've seen them they've done unbelievably well compared to other nations - twice as many provinces picked up as any other nation. I haven't had spies, but looking at what, when, and where they conquered it looks like they can clean out independents with no losses. In the early game 20+ def with mirror images is virtually invulnerable and you shouldn't be able to recruit units like that right off the bat.

[PheasantPlucker]

Here's an alternative - TRAMPLE.

I initially struggled with EA Arco against their glamour units, until I started buying something I hadn't used before - chariot archers.

Get about 20-30, give them hold and attack orders. Voila - they shoot a couple of rounds of archery fire into them as they approach, and then chaaarge - SQUISH!

I won against the glamour units with almost no casualties using those mighty chariot tramplers.

[Epaminondas]

PheasantPlucker said:
Here's an alternative - TRAMPLE....

I won against the glamour units with almost no casualties using those mighty chariot tramplers.



Hmmm.

This sounds a bit too easy. You sure there isn't a catch? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I will try nonetheless.

[FrankTrollman]

I also had pretty good success with a pile of rubbish backed up with a guy who could cast Sulphurous Haze. 20 Helhirdings and 10 Vanir Huskarls dead and I lost 55 human infantrymen. I consider that an excellent trade, and I'm willing to make it until Helheim has nothing left in the field.

-Frank

[KissBlade]

Epaminondas said:

PheasantPlucker said:
Here's an alternative - TRAMPLE....

I won against the glamour units with almost no casualties using those mighty chariot tramplers.



Hmmm.

This sounds a bit too easy. You sure there isn't a catch? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I will try nonetheless.



This does work pretty well against most basic glamour units. The other option is area of effect spells since one point of damage is all you need to dispel the glamour. However the problem with glamour troops tends to be the dual blessed variety which is difficult to tackle with most conventional armies. Not to mention they're also super cost effective raiders.

[Forrest]

Trample will save your empire.

I thought chariots were a waste till I met the glamour units. I bought the chariots as a last gasp before giving up and turned the tide.

[Saxon]

Wind guide will boost your archers accuracy, fire arrows seems more about damage. At the end of the day, I prefer Fire Arrows, but in this situation, Wind Guide may help more with glamour removal.

I also recommend Destruction or, if don’t have E3, Armor of Achilles. Bring down that protection rating, so when you do hit these guys, it hurts them more. I hate it when I finally get the glamour off most of the units and then my army breaks and runs. I found that removing the protection means that I at least get some kills in the close battles. Usually I wear down these armies in a couple of battles. Rust Mist is also an option.

Also, may I suggest looking for good independent heavy infantry? I found them a nice way to beef up the armies facing Helheim, as they can stand and fight longer, giving the spells and arrows longer to work. Also, they are often available closer to the front than my nation troops. They are not going to win you a war, but they can give you an edge in close battles.

[Teraswaerto]

Wind guide will boost your archers accuracy, fire arrows seems more about damage. At the end of the day, I prefer Fire Arrows, but in this situation, Wind Guide may help more with glamour removal.

Why not take both? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Most of the time something like half your arrows will miss, while with Wind Guide they almost all hit. It's a big boost to damage too. It also works with spells.

[PheasantPlucker]

Epaminondas said:

PheasantPlucker said:
Here's an alternative - TRAMPLE....

I won against the glamour units with almost no casualties using those mighty chariot tramplers.



Hmmm.

This sounds a bit too easy. You sure there isn't a catch? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I will try nonetheless.



Hehe - no catch at all, and very straightforward. I'd read the bad press that chariots, and chariot archers, had on this forum and (like Forrest) had thought them a waste before meeting the glamour boys. To my suprise, I discovered that chariot archers can be absolutely lethal.

I soon had armies consisting of nothing but chariot archers shooting, and then trampling, over the AI's glamour armies using Hold-and-Attack orders.

Those chariot tramplers seem tailor made to deal with any high quality foot soldiers. They ignored both defence and glamour attributes, took almost no losses, and were good fun to watch as well.

[Endoperez]

Trample doesn't ignore defence, but they deal 1 point of damage even if the defence roll is successful.

Another fun fact about Chariot Archers:
When scripted to Hold & Attack Rearmost, they first Fire Rear (usually unscriptable), then Attack Rear, going OVER enemy read guard that'd stop normal cavalry. They might still get confused about where they were supposed to go, though.

[calmon]

and like i wrote in the other thread Chariot Archers have 2 Lifes. So after taking 10 hits only the archer dies and the chariot still exists with another 10 life. After the battle the chariot is completly repaired. This and good defence/protection values makes them very useful.

[Agrajag]

I wonder if a holy trampling unit will get extra affliction chance from death bless on its trample attacks.

[Nerfix]

Agrajag said:
I wonder if a holy trampling unit will get extra affliction chance from death bless on its trample attacks.

Holy trampling unit. *shifty eye movements*

[Shovah32]

Can you say w9d9 holy trampler?

[Endoperez]

Nerfix said:
Holy trampling unit. *shifty eye movements*



Yes, like a Jotun Jarl with Boots of Behemoth. Or an Oracle of Subterranean Waters with Stymphalian Wings.

[Shovah32]

Now just imagine them as recruitable units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Nerfix]

I wonder if a sacred chariot would be a good unit.

[Zebion]

Try it out then, Lizard Heir, Early era ctis is a sacred chariot

[Zen]

High Defense lets you dodge tramplings. So I don't think any sort of chariot would work very well, plus all chariots are Size3, so it would only work on size2 glamour units.

[RonD]

I just had 25 Helhirdings and 2 Hangadrotts wiped out to a man by 6 Burning Ones and an F6E9 cyclops - so you might try being Abysia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Corwin]

Zen said:
High Defense lets you dodge tramplings. So I don't think any sort of chariot would work very well, plus all chariots are Size3, so it would only work on size2 glamour units.



Wrong. Chariots are size 4.

[Graeme Dice]

Chariots were actually the only thing I was able to get to sort of work against F9W9 helhirdings as C'Tis, but I wasn't able able to quite figure out the right balance of chariots to turn off glamour and elite warriors to actually kill them.

[Humer]

Zebion said:
Try it out then, Lizard Heir, Early era ctis is a sacred chariot



Add the Amulet of Fire for added hurt. Of course, Const-2 and F1-mage is needed...

[Endoperez]

Amulet of Fire? Pendant of Vengeance?

[Humer]

Endoperez said:
Amulet of Fire? Pendant of Vengeance?



That's the one. Teaches me to check before typing...

[Zen]

Yep, you're right. Glad you said that though, since I was checking them to see why I thought they were size 3, something wonky with a the Pretender Mod, thought I have no idea why it has Lizard Heirs and Arco chariots at size 3 since I don't even mod them.

*Feature*tacular http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[FAJ]

If I am abysia, using cloud effect spells would work well for knocking off the glamour units?

[Zen]

Cloud spells or Falling Fires should do you just fine. If you don't have Evo5, but you do have Evo4 (for Fire Cloud) you should probably make a priority for Evo5, since it does dramatically help your units against non-fire resistant units.

You can also try Prison of Fire, with a decent mage (4+ in Fire) you should be able to imprison them, if you can get the Spell AI to target them.

[curtadams]

Graeme Dice said:
Chariots were actually the only thing I was able to get to sort of work against F9W9 helhirdings as C'Tis, but I wasn't able able to quite figure out the right balance of chariots to turn off glamour and elite warriors to actually kill them.



This shows how extreme the problem is. Even if you can knock off the glamour it's very hard to nail those high-defense units. Plus decent protection and, sometimes, beserking. Urk. Basically, Vanheim cavalry and heavy infantry are pretty gruesome units. It wasn't so noticeable in Dom2 because magic and SCs were much more important and differences in national units quickly became irrelevant. But buffing up the importance of the national units has worked and those strong units really make a difference now.

[dirtywick]

Abysians can knock off glamour with their radiant heat alone. But, yeah, Fire Cloud works really well too, better than Falling Fires for that purpose, as it has a rather large AOE and sits there a few rounds so a lot of units will walk through it, and as Abysia you can cast it x5 because it doesn't effect your guys so you can cast it right on your front lines. Flare actually isn't bad early, it effects a lot of squares around where it lands, doesn't do much damage but can start the unit on fire which is all you want to knock off glamour.

[mivayan]

It wasn't so noticeable in Dom2 because magic and SCs were much more important and differences in national units quickly became irrelevant. But buffing up the importance of the national units has worked and those strong units really make a difference now.


I thought vans had had a boost even, in that the +3 from defence was new... but comparing to dom2, I see vans are almost identical. Only difference to dominions 2.02 is they now have +1 def and -1 prot because of the shield rule changes. The mounted bonus just wasn't spelled out before. I think you're right in your reasoning.

[Ironhawk]

dirtywick said:
Flare actually isn't bad early, it effects a lot of squares around where it lands, doesn't do much damage but can start the unit on fire which is all you want to knock off glamour.



Do ball spells actually work on glamoured units? They didnt in dom2 due to a bug.

[dirtywick]

Ironhawk said:

dirtywick said:
Flare actually isn't bad early, it effects a lot of squares around where it lands, doesn't do much damage but can start the unit on fire which is all you want to knock off glamour.



Do ball spells actually work on glamoured units? They didnt in dom2 due to a bug.



I'm not sure if they'll actually get hit by the ball, that's not really the purpose behind it. Even if Flare hits nothing, which is what usually happens regardless of glamour haha, it releases and AOE in a few squares around it that sometimes starts units on fire which handily gets rid of the glamour. That, I've seen happen. I wouldn't exactly call it reliable or something to base a strategy off of, but early in the game it helps when you don't exactly have too many options anyway.