WinSPMBTver3.0 Info

[DRG]

Below you will find the features list for the WinSPMBTv3 upgrade. We plan to release this sometime in January. When in January is still undecided. It depends on when we are finally done poking and prodding it but it won't be next week so perhaps "the end of January" would be more accurate at this time. All the OOB's have had at least a few changes and in some cases quite a few changes. There was a long list I had kept of concerns people had posted on these forums that was reviewed early on in the process

The patch is currently standing at 24.7 MB. It was originally supposed to be a small upgrade but as you can see it's grown some. This is NOT a cumulative patch so it does not have the previous patches included. You will need to install them BEFORE installing the V3 patch otherwise your game will not function properly. We'll be reminding people of that all along but someone always forgets. Consider this your first reminder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Don Goodbrand

================================================== ========

WinSPMBT version 3.0 upgrade patch

***REVISED, now <font color="red">25 </font> Additional Scenarios ( was 19 )
89 Updated Scenarios
6 Additional previously released Campaigns
29 New Maps and 1 Updated Map.
113 Updated AI Picklists
1 Updated Leader Name File
6 Updated Ranks File
675 New photos
397 New and Revised Icons
92 Updated OOB Files
Upgraded Cost calculator
Upgraded MOBHack



1) GPS and laser Range Finder have been integrated into the game for use by
FOO officers and vehicles. When Artillery observers or FO vehicles are using
a Laser RF and IF the target hex is in LOS the shell scatter will be less. A
FOO with a Range Finder rating above 20 is considered to have a Laser Range
finder. If the observer or FO vehicle is fitted with GPS the scatter will be
less again. A FOO with an EW value of 15 has GPS. . Forward observers with
both GPS and Laser Range finders are not cheap but they do have added uses
in the game ( see point 2 )

2) The game no longer automatically issues 10 artillery priority hexes per
side except for sceanrio design. Priority hexes are issued based on the type
of battle and the number of Forward Observers and the equipment the forward
observers have available. .

3) Retreat/Rally hexes have been added to the game. .

4) Opfire filtering has been added as a bonus for players owning the CD
version of the game. As well, ScenHack and CampaignHack, which were issued
with the last version of WinSPWW2 for CD holders of that game, have both
been rewritten for use by CD holders of WinSPMBT and have been included as
well.

5) Multi Charge RPG's have been added as a new weapons class so RPG-7VR,
RPG-29 , PzF 3T DC and PzF 3 IT-600 DC are modeled correctly now

6) An Optional AI force level adjustment for Campaign games has been added
An INI file variable has been added (optional) for users to use to boost (or
even reduce!) AI points in campaign games .

7) HEAT ammo now has a secondary HE ability. Units with HEAT ammo can fire
HEAT/HE at 66% if the effect of the regular HE round for that weapon. Units
will reserve the last 4 HEAT rounds for anti-tank purposes, and are more
reluctant to fire HEAT/HE against soft units in the reaction fire in the
opponent's turn unless at 1-2 hexes or so. ( in close combat you throw
everything into the fight ). HEAT/HE cannot be area fired (Z-Key) nor does
it have effects in the surrounding hexes like regular HE might, for larger
warhead sizes.

8) All HE ammo has been removed from RPG type weapons that had them added in
to simulate the change mentioned above. This fixes the problem of two man AT
teams carrying 10 or 12 ( or more ) RPG rounds. Typically now they carry
half what they did before.

9] A "View All" key has been added to the game to show all hexes currently
visible to your unit and saves clicking in all 6 directions.

10) The Light helo class is now classed as an arty observer and has all the
same abilities as the Leg FO and FO Vehicle classes with the exception that
the 15 EW value for other FOOs is not used, as that interferes with AAA
self-defence EW.

11) Arid maps Changes . Arid maps (e.g. Iraq) were sometimes being
referenced as a "summer" map, so the desert icons were not being used and
the "green" set was used instead. Desert icons are now used (if they have
them) by units in Arid maps.

12) Artillery effectiveness against armour was too high and the following
changes have been made to the code

* Only units in the shell explosion hex will receive top hits (except
cluster munitions)
* Penetration in the blast circle outside the shell explosion hex has
been reduced for shell splinters (except cluster munitions)
* Armoured units may now suffer a suppression-only hit (hit by shell
splinters message)
* HE penetration on armour now needs more overpenetration to be certain
of a penetration effect. If equal, 25% will go through, if overpenetration
of 6, 90%
* More chance of immobilizations (track hits) rather than kills
especially if the shell size is small

13) Short range effects in infantry combat was a bit too high and the
following changes have been made to the code

1.- The bonus effect for fire at 50m reduced, and takes more
consideration of firer suppression
2.- The bonus for being unspotted (ambush fire at short range) has been
reduced and takes more consideration of firer suppression level
3. - The panic fire chance at 50 metres takes more consideration of
suppression to the firer

14) Barge Changes-- Barges were creating a new barge in the barge carrier
when save games were re-loaded. Fixed. One barge per barge carrier now.

15) The coding for Smoke shells in campaign game upgrades was wrong and has
been fixed. In campaign battles beyond the first, units will have correct
smoke shell loads.

16) When "clone all" was selected in the scenario editor where the cloned
units had weapons deleted ("-"), the game initialisation code was wrongly
loading the template weapons for all the cloned units if the scenario was
reloaded in the scenario editor, or when the scenario was played as a game.
FIXED. The cloned units will now retain their weapon changes

17) Maximum game points has been increased from 50,000 points to 65,000
points. Previous versions of the game allowed 65,000 points only in one
specific case. We now allow the 65,000 maximum in all cases.

18) New Iran - Iraq war battle locations added

19) AI picklist revisions

20) MoBHack database checks expanded

21) EDIT Infantry and vehicles may now enter -1 water hexes. Previous to this change they could enter -1 hexes but only if they are classed as "land". There are sticking penalties for vehicles moving though these water hexes similar to swamp or mud. Infantry move one hex per turn. The game will now also accept entering -1 into a water hex with the map editor and the change will stick. Previous to this it would not.

22] EDIT Infantry is more expensive in V3. The percentage increase varies but averages around 60% more. A typical rifle squad that costs 14 points in the previous version now costs 22 but the costs vary by eqipment. A "high end" squad that cost 34 points in the previous version costs 39 now which is considerably less than 60%. The net result is the overall cost of buying infantry in the game has gone up whereas tank costs have stayed the same or **maybe** gone up a point ot two .



Plus many other small tweaks and adjustments

[RVPERTVS]

Great News Don! Ive been waiting for that patch, some new features look interesting. Keep up that good work!

I´m curious though about the picklist updates and revisions and the opfire filtering bonus, what are those about?

Regards
Robert

[Smersh]

great news, really practical and useful sounding new features. nice work.

[JaM]

Wow, Absolutelly perfect addons. New weapon class for RPGs is great addon, can the weapon class be used for tank guns to simulate tandem HEAT shells like russian BK-29?

[Nightblade]

That's really good to read, my favorite wargame will be getting an update.

Thank you to the SP:MBT developers for your work at improving the game.

[Marek_Tucan]

Great news and many thanks! Looking forward to the patch! 8)

[JohnHale]

Don,

<font color="green">"This is NOT a cumulative patch so it does not have the previous patches included" </font>


I presume it can be patched if you are at v2.5 or v2.51 equally without problems? Just checking..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif


John

[Warhero]

Sounds great Don;)! Can't wait to get next patch... Especially OOBs/scens/campaigns (any historical or fictional?)/maps (never too much;)).

[Mobhack]

Don did some testing on that, and the shell works just fine for tank gun HEAT as well. Apart from the weapon info showing "DC-RPG"!.

So I have sent him new versions of the EXE and Mobhack with the "DC-RPG" string swapped for "DC-HEAT".

Cheers
Andy

[Smersh]

very nice, a change for DC-RPGs following a suggestion also makes changes to HEAT. This is great.

[Marek_Tucan]

just to be sure... So now I may move all shots representing say HESH used as HE in my OOB's to the HEAT shot? Thus say Scorpion's ammo complement consisting entirely from HEAT rounds that would be, if ordered or needed, fired as well on infantry? Do I get it right?

[DRG]

JohnHale said:

Don,

<font color="green">"This is NOT a cumulative patch so it does not have the previous patches included" </font>


I presume it can be patched if you are at v2.5 or v2.51 equally without problems? Just checking..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif


John




Yes. The only change to v2.51 was the gun tube orientation and that has been reverted to "normal" in all versions of the game. If you have 2.51 that change carries over into V3

Don

[DRG]

RVPERTVS said:
Great News Don! Ive been waiting for that patch, some new features look interesting. Keep up that good work!

I´m curious though about the picklist updates and revisions and the opfire filtering bonus, what are those about?

Regards
Robert



Picklist changes were done for a variety of reasons. Sometimes we found the AI was buying too much of this or that and it was balanced or new formations were added for a specific time period that would enhanced the AI's picks so changes were made or just simply becasue errors were found where the AI was buying a formation that wasn't there simply becasue 23 had been entered instead of 24 or 33. We didn't document the changes, if we documented everything we did the patch wouldn't have been ready until March.

I set up a webpage to explain the bonus OPfire feature.
CLICK HERE (http://linetap.com/www/drg/OPfire.htm) to read about it. This will give you a general idea of what it's about.

Don

[cbreedon]

"4) Opfire filtering has been added as a bonus for players owning the CD version of the game"

Don

Does this mean the older CD's or just ones purchased after this upgrade?

[Artur]

DRG said:

RVPERTVS said:
Great News Don! Ive been waiting for that patch, some new features look interesting. Keep up that good work!

I´m curious though about the picklist updates and revisions and the opfire filtering bonus, what are those about?

Regards
Robert



Picklist changes were done for a variety of reasons. Sometimes we found the AI was buying too much of this or that and it was balanced or new formations were added for a specific time period that would enhanced the AI's picks so changes were made or just simply becasue errors were found where the AI was buying a formation that wasn't there simply becasue 23 had been entered instead of 24 or 33. We didn't document the changes, if we documented everything we did the patch wouldn't have been ready until March.

I set up a webpage to explain the bonus OPfire feature.
CLICK HERE (http://linetap.com/www/drg/OPfire.htm) to read about it. This will give you a general idea of what it's about.

Don



I am member of the beta team and tested the OP fire filter feature extensively.
Those who remember the long debate we had over the topic earlier on I can tell this solution is much better than the solution I proposed there. And the good news is that practice showed that the feature fulfills all the good things it was expected to fulfill. A lot of gamey practices will be history very soon.

Good gaming,
Artur.

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks for the reply Don, I´ll have to take a closer look to that opfiltering option, seems interesting.

I´ve posted some time ago that I thought that in most generated battles below 4000 pints the AI was buying to much infantry that the battle didn´t look like armored warfare at all but guerrilla battles. I hope this new picklist update fixes this situation somehow.

There are some changes that I don´t see listed and were mentioned to be included in this forum like the AI apc routine implemented in winspww2 for example, under wich the apcs now tend to carry infantry to the front (something like that)And other AI´s improvements carried over from winww2 and AI improvements in general.

There´s other issues reported fixed that I don´t see in the list.

Regards
Robert

[CFeicht]

Nice.

Which OOBs were heavily scrubbed?

C.

[DRG]

cbreedon said:
"4) Opfire filtering has been added as a bonus for players owning the CD version of the game"

Don

Does this mean the older CD's or just ones purchased after this upgrade?




Anyone who owns a CD version of the game will have this feature initilized once the patch is installed no matter when it was bought.

Don

[DRG]

RVPERTVS said:
Thanks for the reply Don, I´ll have to take a closer look to that opfiltering option, seems interesting.

I´ve posted some time ago that I thought that in most generated battles below 4000 pints the AI was buying to much infantry that the battle didn´t look like armored warfare at all but guerrilla battles. I hope this new picklist update fixes this situation somehow.



Everyone has their own ideas of what's "right". If we started loading up the early picks with armour someone else would howl when their US/UK/NATO AI opponent buys 6 tanks and a company of infantry and that's all for a 4000 point game. As it is now for 4000 points the Brit player might get two or three tanks in a typical random AI pick for battles in 2007. If we give more tanks in "low point" battlesyou get a lot less of everything else and what's "low point" in 1950 is not the same as "low points" 2010

If this really bothers you the simple solution is to set up the game so YOU pick the AI's equipment and let it do the deployment. That way we don't have to guess what 10,000 people all want and if all you want is mainly tanks you'll get what you want. If we coded it to give you what you always expect it's the same thing as you doing the picks yourself anyway. Besides, the game is now "combined arms" Its stopped being a "tank" game years ago but if you want a "tank game" you can pick the AI's force for it and let it do the deployment




RVPERTVS said:
There are some changes that I don´t see listed and were mentioned to be included in this forum like the AI apc routine implemented in winspww2 for example, under wich the apcs now tend to carry infantry to the front (something like that)And other AI´s improvements carried over from winww2 and AI improvements in general.




The problem is we have two very similar games in developent and what we are working with is frequently months ahead of what the players have and since many of these changes were put into the game months ago we forget to mention it becasue we are so used to seeing them. So, Yes the AI will pick up infantry for the APC's and move them to the front. We think ALL the changes that went into the last version of WinSPWW2 that we not in MBT are now in WinSPMBTv3 and all the changes that are now in WinSPMBTv3 that are not in WinSPWW2 are going into WinSPWW2 next week.



RVPERTVS said:
There´s other issues reported fixed that I don´t see in the list.

Regards
Robert



Well perhaps if you tell me what they are I can tell you if they were fixed ? As I said earlier, we don't write down every little thing we do. That's what "Plus many other small tweaks and adjustments " is meant to cover.

Don

[DRG]

CFeicht said:
Nice.

Which OOBs were heavily scrubbed?

C.




"Heavily" ? Poland comes to mind as one that has had a lot of additions. Canada's had some additons. Hungary I spent some time with a few months back. The problem answering that is that generally the main OOB work was done in the fall but every week has had some things done to at least a few of them. EVERY OOB has had at least some work. You won't load them up and see 92 radically changed but they have all had work done to them

Don

[DRG]

JaM said:
Wow, Absolutelly perfect addons. New weapon class for RPGs is great addon, can the weapon class be used for tank guns to simulate tandem HEAT shells like russian BK-29?



As Andy mentioned, yes, it will. It was coded to deal with HEAT and be applied to RPG's but it works for any HEAT round. This means we need to make some changes to the OOB's. If anyone has ***GOOD*** ***SOLID*** information on which nations use this ammo, when it was issued and what guns it was made for that would help get the patch out earlier than if I have to dig this up myself

Anyone??

Don

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks again for your reply Don! I appreciate

I know that I can do the shopping for the AI, that´s actually the way I set generated battles most of the time due primarily to my personal choice, I insist, in -4000 points battles the AI tends to purchase lots of infantry from my point of view; this comes related to one issue I reported short ago where the program incorrectly gives some units a reinforce status creating "ghost" units and it tends to happen when I purchase AI´s toys; though Andy said it was fixed but I didn´t see it on the list. I assume it´s covered under the "many other tweaks and adjustments" as you say. http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=475618&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1

Regards
Robert

[CFeicht]

I guess I should have been more precise in what I was asking about.

Are any of the Balkans or the Iraq OOB getting any changes at all?

C.

[narwan]

CFeicht said:

I guess I should have been more precise in what I was asking about.

Are any of the Balkans or the Iraq OOB getting any changes at all?

C.



From an earlier poost by Don:
"EVERY OOB has had at least some work. You won't load them up and see 92 radically changed but they have all had work done to them."

[JaM]

Rusian BK-29 was the first, and it is in service since 1993(with T-90)

[Mobhack]

There is no HESH ammo in the game (was never implemented by SSI).

If you made all HE as HEAT you would have all HEAT A/T rounds - BUT no proper HESH HE effect (the HE effect for larger HESH rounds should extend into the next hex, as a HESH shell is a solid lump of plastic explosive, unlike HEAT which is a hollow charge with less explosive than a HE shell).

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

RVPERTVS said:
Thanks again for your reply Don! I appreciate

I know that I can do the shopping for the AI, that´s actually the way I set generated battles most of the time due primarily to my personal choice, I insist, in -4000 points battles the AI tends to purchase lots of infantry from my point of view; this comes related to one issue I reported short ago where the program incorrectly gives some units a reinforce status creating "ghost" units and it tends to happen when I purchase AI´s toys; though Andy said it was fixed but I didn´t see it on the list. I assume it´s covered under the "many other tweaks and adjustments" as you say. http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=475618&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1

Regards
Robert




Yep, that's covered under "many other tweaks and adjustments" and if Andy told you it was fixed then it was fixed. Like I said, we don't write down every last little thing we do.

Don

[DRG]

JaM said:
Rusian BK-29 was the first, and it is in service since 1993(with T-90)



OK fair enough but I've also found this......

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type96.asp

The Type 96 has an indigenous smoothbore 125mm/48-calibre gun with
autoloader of Russian 2A46M design. By introducing the autoloader to reduce
the crew to three men, more rounds are available for the higher rate of
fire. The tank can carry 42 rounds, 22 of them stored in the carousel of the
autoloader, and the gun can fire at 6~8 rounds per minute.

The main gun is capable firing APFSDS, HEAT, and HEAT-FRAG. The more recent
BK-27 HEAT round offers a triple-shaped charge warhead and increased
penetration against conventional armour and explosive reactive armour (ERA).
The BK-29 round, with a hard penetrator in the nose is specially designed
for use against reactive armour, and as an MP round has fragmentation
effects.

and this

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/type-85.htm

......the Type 85-III, incorporates features also found in the newer Type 90 tank, including a larger 120mm smooth bore main gun capable of firing APFSDS, HEAT, and HEAT-FRAG. The more recent BK-27 HEAT round offers a triple-shaped charge warhead and increased penetration against conventional armors and ERA. The BK-29 round, with a hard penetrator in the nose is designed for use against reactive armor, and as an MP round has fragmentation effects. If the BK-29 HEAT-MP is used, it may substitute for Frag-HE (as with NATO countries) or complement Frag-HE. With three round natures (APFSDS-T, HEAT-MP, ATGMs) in the autoloader vs four, more antitank rounds would available for the higher rate of fire. A stabilized image intensification sights allows it to engage moving targets while in motion. A GEC-Marconi Centaur fire control system is available. British Barr and Stroud thermal based FCS can be fitted. The Type 85-III uses modular composite armor, and some reports suggest the incorporation of reactive armor.


and this

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/06/tip-of-iceberg.html


Nor indeed are these the most deadly devices in the Iraqi theatre. Not least
of these is the standard BK-29 HEAT-MP round, a 125mm Russian shell used by
the T 72 tank. In dumps and caches all over Iraq, there are estimated
hundreds of thousands of these shells, already in the hand of insurgents.
One of these shells, suitably positioned, and detonated by a remote device,
can easily take out an Abrams or Challenger Main Battle Tank and, indeed,
several Abrams have been lost to these and similar devices - one only last
month.



So it would seem that this thing is available to just about anyone anywhere using the 125mm gun ( NOT just the T-90 )after the mind 1990's

??

Anyone got other info???

Don

[JaM]

Maybe it has something to do with Russian markings.

I found this on Vasily Fofanov page:http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/
# 3VBK-7 (3BK-12 projectile) (DOI 1962)
420mm RHA at 0°; Steel liner; A-IX-1 charge (flegmatized RDX); I-238 detonator
3BK-12M modernization utilizes improved 3V-15 detonator (DOI 1968)
# 3VBK-10 (3BK-14 projectile) (DOI 1968)
450mm RHA at 0°; Steel liner; octol charge (flegmatized 75% HMX/25% TNT); 3V-15 detonator
# 3VBK-16 (3BK-18 projectile) (DOI est.1975)
500mm RHA at 0°; Copper liner; octol charge; 3V-15 detonator
3BK-18M modernization introduces wave-shaper boosting penetration by 10% (DOI est.1978)
550mm RHA at 0°; Copper liner; octol charge; 3V-15 detonator
# 3VBK-17 (3BK-21 projectile) (DOI est.1980)
Complex of measures to improve jet formation reliability
550mm RHA at 0°; Copper liner; octol charge; 3V-15 detonator
3BK-21B model (DOI est.1982)
520mm RHA at 0°; DU liner for improved performance on advanced armors and enhanced behind-armor effects.
# 3VBK-21 (3BK-25 projectile) (est.DOI 1985)
Unknown performance and round configuration
# 3VBK-25 (3BK-29 projectile) (est.DOI 1988)
New explosive pressing technology improves jet precision
Weight reduced to 18,400g; MV boosted to 915m/s
Est.650mm RHA at 0°; Unknown liner; tandem charge
3BK-29M presented by NIMI in 1998; unknown improvements over 3BK-29
# 3VBK-25I (3BK-29I projectile) (est.DOI 1988)
Practice HEAT round that matches 3BK-29's flatter trajectory
#

3BK-31?
3BK-31? round
3VBK-27? (3BK-31? projectile) (in development?)
800mm RHA at 0°
680mm RHA at 0° behind external ERA
660mm RHA at 0° behind integral ERA
Unknown liner; triple charge

So maybe BK-27 is 3BK31 round (3VBK-27)

[Marek_Tucan]

Mobhack said:
There is no HESH ammo in the game (was never implemented by SSI).




Yup, I know, just lumped HESH together with HEAT as CE weapons.



If you made all HE as HEAT you would have all HEAT A/T rounds - BUT no proper HESH HE effect (the HE effect for larger HESH rounds should extend into the next hex, as a HESH shell is a solid lump of plastic explosive, unlike HEAT which is a hollow charge with less explosive than a HE shell).




Not much expert on HESH weapons, but (WARNING! SPECULATION follows! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) OTOH the HESH shell doesn't produce much splinters whereas many HEAT rounds do despite smaller charge - IMO this would offset the effects of both rounds so that both would be less successfull in infantry killing than HE-FRAG of the same caliber.
Atleast that's the way I feel it should be so doing this in my OOB set http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Just wanted to be sure that if I move all the HE shells in my HESH using tanks to the HEAT folder, they would be fired upon infantry if needed.

[Mobhack]

Apart from the last 4 rounds which will be reserved for A/T emergencies, they will be fireable as reduced value HE vs infantry.

Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

Thanks, so i got it right and the schoolwork didn't manage to abduct all my neurons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Looking forward to the patch and once again, many thanks for it in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DRG]

JaM said:
Maybe it has something to do with Russian markings.

I found this on Vasily Fofanov page: http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/

&lt;SNIP&gt;

3BK-31?
3BK-31? round
3VBK-27? (3BK-31? projectile) (in development?)
800mm RHA at 0°
680mm RHA at 0° behind external ERA
660mm RHA at 0° behind integral ERA
Unknown liner; triple charge

So maybe BK-27 is 3BK31 round (3VBK-27)




Perhaps. I have seen various things like this as well.
This one--- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm

lists info

125mm BK-29 (1988) Tandem HEAT 65cm 13

125mm BK-29M Tandem HEAT - ?

125mm BK-31 Tanden HEAT (under development 2003) – 80cm 16

I have also seen this ......
Russian 125mm BK-29 HEAT (1990) 700mm at all ranges

This page
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/type-85.htm

has this to say.


The more recent BK-27 HEAT round offers a triple-shaped charge warhead and increased penetration against conventional armors and ERA. The BK-29 round, with a hard penetrator in the nose is designed for use against reactive armor, and as an MP round has fragmentation effects. If the BK-29 HEAT-MP is used, it may substitute for Frag-HE (as with NATO countries) or complement Frag-HE.



So it may look like there are BK-27's and BK-29's that do the same job different ways and it also sounds like the BK-29 predates the BK-27 ( perhaps the 27 entered development first but finished development after the BK-29? )


And like many other bits of information it's difficult to nail something down 100% unless it's equipment 25 years out of date. So, we compromise...... and when we do not everyone is happy and before I start tearing into the OOB's a bit I'm going to wait a day or so and see if someone can give me good, solid info. If not,( as is most likly ) I'll aim for being "close". It's really not a hugely serious issue anyways as it only affects tanks using ERA when fired at by tanks using the DC ammo and in all cases that Russian equipment firing at Russian equipment and that wasn't an important issue in the 1990's ALTHOUGH we do have one source now claiming the BK-27's were available as early as 1988 which , coupled with the HEAT penetration we already allow the Russian 125mm Gun 88 ( penetration 68 ) which fit's quite nicely into the penetration numbers other sources claim for this shell it might be worth making the 125mm Gun 88 the start point for this

We are also faced with one very, VERY big obstacle. The weapons list in the Russian OOB is now full and every weapon there is used. There are no extras and there is ZERO chance of the weapons data being expanded to hold more weapons without screwing up more things in the game than you can imagine so adding new weapons is out of the question. The deal now is to find the best compromise with what we have so what I am faced with is deciding which gun to start applying the DC-HEAT flag to and right now I'm leaning towards the "125mm Gun 88"

Game design is SUCH fun....

Don

[Smersh]

just to get this striaght, the new opfire filtering features will only be available to CD owners, correct? I want to make sure of this before, I make my purchase http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

[przy]

Sorry if this has already been answered. Is the opfire filtering feature already available for the latest version of SPWW2 for those like me who own the cd version? Thanks for any replies.

[RVPERTVS]

DRG said:
Yep, that's covered under "many other tweaks and adjustments" and if Andy told you it was fixed then it was fixed. Like I said, we don't write down every last little thing we do. Don



Thanks again Don, I fully undertand not every single bugfix wold be listed.I was just hoping 3.0 had something done in this and the AI department, specially picklists.

Regards
Robert

[DRG]

The opfire routine is a bonus feature included in the WinSPMBTv3 patch for those people who own the CD version of the game. It will not be active unless you have the CD version installed

The opfire routine will be included in the next WinSPWW2 upgrade we issue as a bonus for those players who own a CD of that game

Don

[przy]

Thanks for the reply, I own the CD versions of both games. So this is a nice treat.

[Smersh]

the new opfire feature along with the other bonuses has pushed me over the edge. I ordered my cd version today.

[JaM]

Multicharge warheads are more effective against chobham armor too.Not only against ERA. They are capable to penetrate different layers of armor more effectivelly than solid HEAT round. (but still they will not be able to penetrate front turret armor...)
About that BK-27, i think that this is just the typo (very frequent issue with russian markings in western media) as 3BK-31 is s projectile for 3VBK-27 round, as 3BK-29 is for 3VBK-25. So BK-31,(not BK-27) is newer than BK-29.

[JohnHale]

Da, Smersh - me too!

[Sarunas]

When? WHEN? I needses this preciousss!!

[RecruitMonty]

Hello,

I have been modifying my OOBS and I have added in some new icons for some units. I shall tell you which ones they are and I was wondering if any of you could tell me if those OOBS or SHP files have been upgraded. How they were upgraded would be a nice bit of info to have too.

here are the files:

OOB 06 - France.
OOB 12 - Russia.
OOB 12 - USA.
OOB 13 - USMC.
OOB 14 - China.
OOB 22 - Mujahadeen.
OOB 35 - Denmark. - was the ranks/names file updated?
OOB 43 - Red.
OOB 46 - Austria.
OOB 68 - Lebanon.
OOB 72 - VC

Shp:
0002
0008
0044
0052
0053
0066
0067
0068
0069
0072
0075
0076
0077
0093
0097
0099 (Addition).

Also what numbers are the new maps and scenarios?

I did a lot of map work.

I have copies of everything but I would still like to know so I know if I have to take special care when I am installing this patch.

Thanks for your help (in advance).

[DRG]

If you read this whole thread you will see I have already said "EVERY OOB has had at least some work" and that same remark was repeated by Narwan when someone else asked what OOB's had been reworked. IDK HOW to make this any clearer. "EVERY OOB has had at least some work." OK ??? So that includes every one you listed. If you want to know exactly what those changes were you'll need to compare your OOB's with the patch OOB's line by line when they are released

If you modify the OOB's and SHP files you take your chances when a patch is released. 50 SHP files have been altered and they include some of the ones you list. The scenarios now run to 178 and the maps run to 259.

ANYONE who has files maps or scenarios or whatever that they add in between our releases is best advised to back them up somewhere before installing this patch or any patch.

The simple solution that has been used by many people in the past is the first install the patch to a dummy folder and THEN review the files that have been added or changed and copy them over one by one. That's the chance you take when you modify the game on your own.

Don

[RecruitMonty]

I did read the post. I skimmed through it to be exact. I didn't see anything about the OOBS as such apart from the number ,,92", which in hindsight clearly means all of them. So I apologise for asking again. The first and last page don't contain much more on the number of OOBs though.

To what extent has OOB 35 been edited? What about the RED, USA, USMC, Mujahadeen and USSR/Russia ORBATS? Those are my core OOBS so I need to know especially since I will need to apply the patch in order to keep up to date.

That doesn't answer my second question though does it. Which SHP files have been updated out of the ones I listed.

Thanks for the scenario and map information.

[DRG]

I also said a few posts back ..."we don't write down every last little thing we do." so no, I'm not going to provide an accounting of changes made to individual OOB's. Save your old OOB's and take it from there. There's a new points calculor as well so the cost of various things have changed slightly so you're old OOB's will need to go through the new calc to put them in sync with the rest ( infantry is a bit more expensive now )

Of that list of SHP files, so far 0002 , 0068, 0075 and 0097 have been changed. That could change again be the time the patch is released. The changes are included in the "WINSPMBT_MasterIconList.txt" file included with the patch. You can go through it when the patch is released

Don

[RecruitMonty]

Thankyou for the Shp files. If you don't mind I will probably drop back in closer to the release date and ask what other shp files have been edited. As for the cost calc. I regularily re-calc. all my own work so that shouldn't be too much trouble. I created a new folder for the patch too. Thanks for your help.

[Nick_Hyle]

DRG said:
The opfire routine will be included in the next WinSPWW2 upgrade we issue as a bonus for those players who own a CD of that game



Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Sarunas]

BTW, did the phantom artillery (after either side fires air-to surface missiles/LGBs) bug get solved?

[mr_clark]

This question came up in another forum:
Does the "advacned opfire" for CD owners also stay active if playing PBEM agaisnt a non CD gamer? If yes it will surely lead to another round of gentelmans# agreements...

[DRG]

mr_clark said:
This question came up in another forum:
Does the "advacned opfire" for CD owners also stay active if playing PBEM agaisnt a non CD gamer? If yes it will surely lead to another round of gentelmans# agreements...



Yes, it stays active for a CD player when he PBEM's a DL player. We don't consider this a war winner that will give one side a huge advantage. ( others will disagree....these are wargamers after all........)

Don

[mr_clark]

Allright, thanks for the quick reply.

As you say I see it a little 'darker' then you but what the heck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Crazy_Dutch]

If there are the possibilies for wishes, then I have the following.

Sams like Stinger work only if they are in a SAM Team/ I like to see that they also work if they are in other infantry types class

[RVPERTVS]

DRG said:
Generally, in almost all cases what we had for tanks fit's into that time frame. What we had in the game was a number of Mi-24's equipped with TI long before that was feasible and also specialty vehicles ( FO vehicles etc ) that also had TI long before they should have.
Don



Don, are you saying that in v3 Russia (my fav)would be stripped from any TI equipment prior to 90´s ?

Regards
Robert

[JaM]

They didnt had TI till 1990 so why they should ?

[RVPERTVS]

Don: is it possible to make the map zoom in and out with the mouse wheel?

I know the patch is almost done and stuff, just asking becasue that´s a feature I would really like to see implemented because I´m so used to it from other games.

Regards
Robert

[DRG]

Andy looked at that when we converted to windows and as I recal it involved ripping out and changing too many things to get it to work and anytime even small things are changed in this game we find ripple effects on other things so the idea was abandoned as more trouble than it was worth.

Don

[DRG]

RVPERTVS said:
Don, are you saying that in v3 Russia (my fav)would be stripped from any TI equipment prior to 90´s ?

Regards
Robert



As has been said. They didn't have it so it's being removed and anyway, as I have mentioned on other threads the Hinds were the main "problem" not the tanks. Remember we are talking about tanks with vision 40 or higher and you won't find any Russian tanks with vison 40 or higher in the OOB's you have now so there's really not much of a change. Just the early Hinds

Don

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks for your Reply Don, and yes I know since the begining the discussion is about tanks, under 2.51 oob ruskies are not given MBTs with TIs until 1993 if I remember correctly, they do have the PRP-2 as a FO vehicle with 40 vison during the 80´s in the game, my question was about those FO vehicles.

Are you saying that just the Hinds are going to be tweaked or the PRP-2 is going to be stripped from TIs too?

Regards
Robert

[Mobhack]

The PRP has "SMALL FRED" GSR, not TI.

Already answerd in this (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=wspmbt&amp;Number=487845&amp;F orum=f100,f171,f144,f145,f157,f147&amp;Words=small%20f red&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=487019&amp;Search=true&amp; where=bodysub&amp;Name=&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=5&amp;newerty pe=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post487845) thread by Don.

Andy

[Marcello]

"All HE ammo has been removed from RPG type weapons that had them added in to simulate the change mentioned above. This fixes the problem of two man AT teams carrying 10 or 12 ( or more ) RPG rounds. Typically now they carry
half what they did before."

I would note however that the RPG-7 has some dedicated HE rounds,like the OG-7V, which have seen battlefield use.
Still I would say that giving antipersonnel capability to HEAT is a godsend which saves many headaches.

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks Andy I see the difference now, however I´m still wondering if there´s any difference in a vision value of 40, I mean, I understand that a 40 means TI, could the same value model GSR equipment as well? or in v3 the PRP-2´s vision value is going to be reduced? is that the solution?

Regards
Robert

[Mobhack]

vision of 40 or more can represet radar or TI - in SP game terms effectivey the same thing. It sees through smoke. That is why the colour changes and TI/GSR is shown in mobhack for any such vision of 40 or more.

PRP has 40, for an earlier radar, and PRP-2 has 50 presumably for a better/more advanced model.

Cheers
Andy

[RVPERTVS]

Thanks a lot Andy! So this means the ruskies aren´t going to be stripped of level 40 vision (prior to 90´s) after all. Sweet!

Regards
Robert

[PlasmaKrab]

Pardon for being a nitpick, but what about the BRMs? AFAIK even the early BRM-1K mounts a Tall Mike (PSNR-5) GSR, and that one dates back to 1976.
Right now all the pre-1990 BRMs in the Russian OOB have a vision of 30.

[mr_clark]

Marcello said:
"All HE ammo has been removed from RPG type weapons that had them added in to simulate the change mentioned above. This fixes the problem of two man AT teams carrying 10 or 12 ( or more ) RPG rounds. Typically now they carry
half what they did before."

I would note however that the RPG-7 has some dedicated HE rounds,like the OG-7V, which have seen battlefield use.
Still I would say that giving antipersonnel capability to HEAT is a godsend which saves many headaches.


Interesting point, IMHO. The same basic launchers are usable for different ammo. If I understood correctly that in 3.0 there will be dedicated AT/AP teams then I don't really think thats a good idea. Or will the RPG teams now feature two weapon slots featuring fewer ammo for both warheads?

[thatguy96]

PlasmaKrab said:
Pardon for being a nitpick, but what about the BRMs? AFAIK even the early BRM-1K mounts a Tall Mike (PSNR-5) GSR, and that one dates back to 1976.
Right now all the pre-1990 BRMs in the Russian OOB have a vision of 30.


Yeah, I have similar questions, because various US Armored Cavalry HQ elements had access to M113s with first generation GSR, in this case the PPS-5/A. While I know its a design decision at heart, I don't think I'd mind a more expanded basic vision rubric as already exists in the MobHack help file.

[Marek_Tucan]

mr_clark said:
Interesting point, IMHO. The same basic launchers are usable for different ammo. If I understood correctly that in 3.0 there will be dedicated AT/AP teams then I don't really think thats a good idea. Or will the RPG teams now feature two weapon slots featuring fewer ammo for both warheads?



From what I gather the HEAT warheads for RPG's are by far more frequent on the battlefields and the HE rockets are being issued rather in specific circumstances when the RPG's etc. act rather like sorta pack artillery, for example in Afghanistan.

[DRG]

RVPERTVS said:
Thanks a lot Andy! So this means the ruskies aren´t going to be stripped of level 40 vision (prior to 90´s) after all. Sweet!

Regards
Robert


WE never said they were going to be stripped out but that's how it got spun out of control. The HINDS prior to 1990 were the real issue. The ACRV-2 and PRP-2 and PRP-3 FO vehicles are unchanged. This is NOT, as some have implied, a "plot" to emasculate the Warsaw pact forces in the game. The POINT of it all was to bring the unit that were out of line, into reality and that, in 90% of the cases was various HINDs in various OOB's. Western OOB's were seached for units with Vision ratings higher than they should be for various time periods as well.

Don

[DRG]

mr_clark said:

Interesting point, IMHO. The same basic launchers are usable for different ammo. If I understood correctly that in 3.0 there will be dedicated AT/AP teams then I don't really think thats a good idea. Or will the RPG teams now feature two weapon slots featuring fewer ammo for both warheads?




There have always been dedicated RPG teams AND RPG's included with the squads. WHERE did you get the idea that "in 3.0 there will be dedicated AT/AP teams" that differ from the ones already in the game ??

Don

[DRG]

PlasmaKrab said:
Pardon for being a nitpick, but what about the BRMs? AFAIK even the early BRM-1K mounts a Tall Mike (PSNR-5) GSR, and that one dates back to 1976.
Right now all the pre-1990 BRMs in the Russian OOB have a vision of 30.



Well I hate the nitpick back at you but if you look you'll see that the BRM-1K isn't modeled in the game and the other "pre-1990 BRMs" are "stock" BRM's and the regular BRM's didn't have the Tall Mike radar as only one was issued, so equipped, per recce coy


IF I add a BRM-1K it will have the correct vision

Don

EDIT. I did a little digging and there seems to be some confusion ( what a surprise eh? ) One source say only the K model gets the radar and another says the K is the command vehicle and it's the The BMP M 1976(2) ( AKA BRM-1M ) is the one with the radar



" The BMP M 1976(2) model has a small parabolic antenna on the roof. One of these vehicles is assigned, along with three BMP-1s, to the reconnaissance company of a motorized rifle or tank regiment, and three of them are assigned to the reconnaissance battalion of a motorized rifle or tank division.

The BRM-1K (BMP M1976/2) Armored Reconnaissance Command Vehicle, derived from BMP-1, has a 2-man turret and additional sensors. Two manportable SAM launchers are included. BMP-1 options fit BRM-1 and -1K. Passengers may dismount from BRM-1K and will dismount from BRM-1 to form an alternate reconnaissance post."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/brm-1.htm



So, we appear to be "missing" the BRM-1M. We have the 2m and 3m versions in the game

Don ( end of edit )

[Kuklinovsky]

Hello "western" guys! I have bad news for you!

I have found that PRP-4 arty recon vehicle introduced 1984 HAD THERMAL IMAGER in addition to GSR radar! It is proof that USSR HAD thermal sight technology in 1980s! I am sure its further implementations on Soviet helos, UAVs and tanks will be also discovered sooner or later!

Here you are PRP-4 description taken from Worldwide Equipment Guide (WEG):


The hull of the PRP-4 is virtually identical to the BMP-1 although, as it has a different mission, the layout of the vehicle and roof hatches is very different.
The driver is seated front left with the power pack to his right and another crew member seated to his rear. Both have single-piece hatch covers and associated observation devices. The two-man power-operated turret is in the centre of the vehicle and is provided with two roof hatches, sensors and a single 7.62 mm PKT machine gun.

Optical devices are mounted on the forward part of the roof and in pods on either side of the turret.

Mounted in the rear of the turret is the 1RL133M-1 "Tall Mike" radar (operating band: I (9.0 GHz), detection range (personnel): 3.0 km, detection range (vehicle): 12 km) with a flat antenna that folds forwards when not operational.

The 1PN59 Thermal Imaging Night Vision Device (the 1PN71 model in PRP-4M) is mounted on the left side of the turret and has a target detection range of at least 3,000 m and a target recognition range of at least 2,000 m.

Mounted on the right side of the turret is the 1PN61 infrared night vision device with a detection range in the active mode of 2,500 to 3,000 m and 1,500 m in the passive mode.

To determine the range to targets, a 1D11M-1 periscope laser binocular rangefinder is also fitted in the right side of the turret. An ID13 laser rangefinder is carried inside the vehicle and deployed away from the vehicle when required.

Navigation equipment fitted includes course plotter KP-4, gyro course indicator 1G13 and gyrocompass 1G25-1.

Information processing and communications equipment fitted includes a 1V250 electronic calculator, an R-173 radio system and a 1A30M automatic command receiver.

The fifth crew member is seated in the rear and has a circular roof hatch that opens to the rear. The twin doors in the hull are retained but the vehicle does not have any firing ports.

As the PRP-4 has extensive communications equipment and other systems that need additional power, an auxiliary power unit is fitted as standard.

The PRP-4 retains the amphibious characteristics of the BMP-1 and is fitted with an NBC system as standard; it can also lay its own smoke screen by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust outlet which is located on the right side of
the hull.

Specifications:

Crew: 5
Combat weight: 13,200 kg
Ground pressure: 0.60 kg/cm2
Length: 6.735 m
Width: 2.94 m
Height: 2.146 m
Ground clearance: 370 mm
Max speed:
(road) 65 km/h
(water) 7 km/h
Range:
(road) 550-600 km
Fording: amphibious
Engine: UTD-20 4-stroke diesel developing 300 hp
NBC system: yes
Night vision equipment: yes

[RVPERTVS]

DRG said:
WE never said they were going to be stripped out but that's how it got spun out of control. The HINDS prior to 1990 were the real issue. The ACRV-2 and PRP-2 and PRP-3 FO vehicles are unchanged. This is NOT, as some have implied, a "plot" to emasculate the Warsaw pact forces in the game. The POINT of it all was to bring the unit that were out of line, into reality and that, in 90% of the cases was various HINDs in various OOB's. Western OOB's were seached for units with Vision ratings higher than they should be for various time periods as well.
Don



Thanks for your reply Don, I knew since the begining that the discusion was about MBTs, it seems that MY confusion was regarding the vision 40 value, I didn´t know that it models TI and GSR alike .Everything is clear now.

Regards
Robert

[Kuklinovsky]

As for Hinds and TI: I suggest you to look closely at Mi-24K/Hind G-2 model! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[DRG]

Kuklinovsky said:
As for Hinds and TI: I suggest you to look closely at Mi-24K/Hind G-2 model! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Ya know buddy, I'm getting fed up with your attitude. If you have information to share then SHARE IT instead of working so very hard at being obnoxious. WHAT EXACTLY am I supposed to be "Looking closely" at this model for?

Here's what I have on it

"Mi-24K (korrektirovchik: corrector) ('Hind-G2'): As Mi-24R, but with large camera in cabin, f8/1,300mm lens on starboard side; six per helicopter regiment for reconnaissance and artillery fire correction; gun and B-8V-20 rocket pods retained. No target designator pod under nose; upward hingeing cover for IR sensor. About 150 built 1983-89. "

"Mi-24K reconnaissance artillery spotting helicopter intended for ground forces"

"Mi-24K (Hind-G2) : Army reconnaissance, artillery observation helicopter. "

THATS IT. ONE source says it has and IR sensor...NOT a TI sensor... a IR sensor. You have better info ? Great. Let's here what it is and where you found it.

Don

[DRG]

Kuklinovsky said:
Hello "western" guys! I have bad news for you!

I have found that PRP-4 arty recon vehicle introduced 1984 HAD THERMAL IMAGER in addition to GSR radar! It is proof that USSR HAD thermal sight technology in 1980s!



I see..... I have WEG as well. Please tell me where I can find in WEG the info that the PRP-4 ---with the equipment you listed--- was introduced in 1984. If not WEG then any other creditable source will do. I cannot find 1984 mentioned anywhere in WEG in relation to the PRP-4 and that equipment

What I DID find was ..."PRP-3/PRP-4: Artillery reconnaissance vehicle (see p. 6-3). ... Recently, thermal night sights have been introduced with thermal sights (FLIRs) ..."

"Recently" is an interesting word..........nothing about 1984 though. If you have something concrete please do share. I will be happy to ensure that the correct info gets into the game

Don

[Nox]

Kuklinovsky said:
I have found that PRP-4 arty recon vehicle introduced 1984 HAD THERMAL IMAGER in addition to GSR radar! It is proof that USSR HAD thermal sight technology in 1980s! I am sure its further implementations on Soviet helos, UAVs and tanks will be also discovered sooner or later!




Yes that vehicle would appear to be an exception assuming the sources you quoted are correct, but do you have any valid sourses indicating that tanks or attack helicopters of the Soviet Union were equiped whit a thermal imager devices before the 1990's? It is one thing to have thermal imager on a special Recon/FO vehicle than to have it standard on all Main Battle Tanks or Attack helicopters. It might have been that due to the cost of the devices and the Soviet tactics/regulations the devices were not used. It is not only a question if USSR had thermal imaging technology in the 1980's, but were they actualy installed and used on tanks/helos in the 80's. All information available seems to point that they were not.


Kuklinovsky said:
As for Hinds and TI: I suggest you to look closely at Mi-24K/Hind G-2 model! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



What I found on the net points to Mi-24K (Hind-G2) being a special purpose reconisance/chemical warfare helicopter not used in large quantities, did not find any information that it had a thermal imager though. Even if it did have a thermal imager and was available in the 80's it would appear to fall into the same special purpose vehicle gategory whit the PRP-4.

[Marek_Tucan]

PRP-4M (http://www.rbs.ru/vttv/99/firms/rubtsmz/e-prp.htm)

Note that designation of PRP-4 variant with TI 1PN71 sight is PRP-4M/MU, that implies it definitely ISN'T basic version introduced in 1984 (besides started appearing on exhibitions in late 1990s). Basic PRP-4 was just equipped with better radar than PRP-3 (Tall Mike vs. Small Fred).
Also mentions of this sight (1PN71) started to appear only with BRM-3 recon vehicle, IE 1990's thing as well.

[Kuklinovsky]

Blah, blah, blah Tucano! Your thesis are in shambles so you start to jive! I suggest you to carefully read what I wrote before you begin your jabber.

It is obvious PRP-4 was introduced in 1984. It is also obvious it was equipped with 1PN59 thermal imager because it was the biggest difference between PRP-4 and PRP-3. Also it is obvious that later introduced PRP-4M vehicle had newer 1PN79 thermal sight. And none of your rubbish can change these basic facts.

Resume: Soviets HAD thermal technology in 1980s but they were reluctant to spread it wider across troops because they thought it wasn't necessary in the event of war with NATO in Europe. Also lack of money for TIs wasn't any kind of obstacle for Soviets. USSR always had plenty of cash on arms even at every other expense. That is why all these hidden suggestions that Soviets were shleppers or technologically backwarded savages are a piece of [censored]! But I am sure such suggestions are copasetic for US/UK teens!

PS. Though I try to create Mi-24K with TI in my OOBs, buddy! Western teens can't be allowed to rule on battlefield only because they can get AH-64D with visual set to...60! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[pdoktar]

Funny if you can rule the battlefield of WinSPmbt scale with a single helo, even if it would have vision of 99. Try to revise your tactics before revising the oobs.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[DRG]

Kuklinovsky ...... if you are simply going to ignore what others say and hurl abuse at them then leave this forum, you are wasting everyone's time with your nonsense.

I asked you for REAL info on the Mi-24K and all you can come back with is you'll add TI to it in your OOB's. Really??? ON WHAT EVIDENCE are you adding TI to this??. There is NO evidence that that helicopter used TI only IR

"IRIS wide-angle IR and optical sensor system."

is all that ANY source says this helo carried IR is NOT TI

The only one acting like a "teen" on these forums is you Kuklinovsky. Normally people are warned to modify their behaviour off list. In your case I'll make an exception. Disagreement on this forum is fine, but only in a respectful manner....no more name calling or you're gone.

Don

[Kuklinovsky]

Of course only I am an "acting teen" on this forum because real Western teens are waiting now for WinSPMBT 3.0 impatiently! They will be albe to smash Soviets like Iraqis with pleasure and everything will be fine!

Well, you can't intimidate me bannig from forum becaue I am leaving it myself!

But don't worry. I am sure hordes of combative US/UK teens will join this forum now! :mgreen:

[Stirling]

How much you want to bet that Kuklinovsky has a picture of Vladimir Zhirinovsky on his wall?

Right over Stalin's.

[BaronvonBeer]

USSR becoming Iraq is a bit extreme.

To do that you would have to do some serious OOB modding: Replace tanks with stripped down export T-72, at the high end. Replace it's gun to simulate 1970's vintage 3BM-12 &amp; 3BM-15 SABOT rounds (some of local, allegedly inferior quality, manufacture) and reduce crew quality by a good margin.

And that's not factoring in IFVs, artillery, ATGMs, aircraft, and the fact that the open engagements of the desert had about as much in common with your typical West German battlefield as Antarctica has with Daytona Beach.

I don't think removing TI from a few Hind models that had em by mistake will quite do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kuklinovsky]

Why would you be satisfied only with blinding Hinds??? By changing all OOBs only for a few poor Hinds you simply waste your time!

So, I can also advise some little tinkering at Soviet reactive armors. In consequence these armors could explode together with entire tanks when hit by Western ATGMs for example. It would be so wonderful show for our eager for strong sensations US and UK teens! You should make special tank explosion effects to enable teens to be transported with joy. In that way you can simultaneously "correct" all newer Soviet/Russian tanks characteristics to the Iraqi level. It is really magnificent idea, fellows!

Let it roll! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

PS1. I suggest all profies to set Hinds vision at 70 when you playing with teens armed with Apache-D overrated at 60 visual points. Justice must rule, guys! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

PS2. You should also create yourselves some "energy shields" for Soviet tanks immediately after some hypothetical "changes" in Soviet reactive armor takes place!

FAREWELL!

[DRG]

I have already stated that there has not been any wholesale downgrading of the Russian/WP etc OOB's. The main focus was to correct the TI given to Hinds. In the Hungarian OOB that was as early as 1978 which actually predated when the Russian Hinds were getting it. Currently, for those of you who are actually willing to listen, T1... real thermal imaging not radar, starts appearing in the Russian OOB in 1990 which is reasonable give the facts as they are known.( anyone can argue that a Helo with IR gear really had TI gear and not offer proof but that doesn't make it correct ) The specialty OP vehicles that use the GSR little Fred and Tall Mike start in the mid 70's. Thost vehicles are rated at 40 or above which sets the flag to indicate "TI/GSR" both do essentially the same job at this scale so one is interchangeable with the other. A "40" in vision could be TI or GSR, it doesn't matter.

( and I added the SNAR-10 which nobody else seems to have noticed was missing from the Russian OOB and quite a few other OOB's as well which is rated at a "50" vision which puts a Russian player at a distict advantage in the mid 70's to early 80's...... yeah.... we're just crapping all over the Russian player with the V3 release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)

Some people ( one in particular ) have expressed concerns ( both rationally and otherwise ) that this was done to create a deliberate imbalance in the game to favour the "western" side. This, is patent, utter nonsense but, with some, once an idea takes hold they simply will not listen. Those people will be removed from this forum becasue, as in Kuklinovsky case, he is spouting utter nonsense "They will be albe to smash Soviets like Iraqis with pleasure and everything will be fine" is pure fantasy and it really is sad when people let fantasy rule their thoughts.

The OOB's have not been tweaked to deliberately weaken or strengthen either "side" we have, as always, strived to be fair and impartial in our work on the OOB's. Errors do creep in but with a database this size and much of the information still classified it's to be expected. In this case we corrected an error that had existed almost from the first release of SPMBT and the number of units actually changed is miniscule in relation to the actual number of units for all nations in the game. We've added dual charge HEAT ammo to the game which is almost exclusively a "Russian" ( and their arms customers )addition and that's been totally forgotten.( or just simply ignored )

This entire TI issue was blown way out of proportion for reasons unknown. I explained a number of times that this was not a massive change to the game and it's not.

Don

[DRG]

Kuklinovsky said:
FAREWELL!




We can all hope so.

Don

[Kuklinovsky]

If much of information is still classified I can do a realistic assumption that placing TIs on selected Soviet Hinds and tanks is also keep secret up to now! So, all profies are free to set Soviet tanks visual at 50 points starting from, say 1981 or 1984, and who can tell this is impossible??? Soviets were well known for their "maskirovka"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Additionally I demand smoke grenades and projectiles on Soviet side which can completely block Western TIs! Such aerosols have been existing not only in US arsenal from way back!

[Kuklinovsky]

Yes, I have found another banana oil here!

"A 40 in vision could be TI or GSR, it doesn't matter."

Of course, it DOES matter simply because GSR is far more resistant for darkness, dust, fog, smoke, aerosols and other weather and battlefield conditions than any TI!

As an esteemed WinSPMBT forum's professional man I can't agree to give me the shaft! It is very rudely! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Uncle_Joe]

Some people ( one in particular ) have expressed concerns ( both rationally and otherwise ) that this was done to create a deliberate imbalance in the game to favour the "western" side. This, is patent, utter nonsense but, with some, once an idea takes hold they simply will not listen.



This same type of nonsensical crap is also present in most other military-style game forums. The Axis and Allies Minis boards are full of people openly accusing WotC of purposely making the US 'better' to cater to the US buyers. And its a load of complete BS.

So, IMO, its best to simply ignore these people who must take their hatred of all things US in the modern world and apply it even to their hobbies.

[Djuice]

Regarding the multi-spectral obstruction capability of aerosols/smokes, only the T-80UK (Command Variant) was equiped with it in the USSR. No other tanks had them.

[Djuice]

First Soviet (well, Russian by that time) tank to mount TI was T-80U(M) in 1992. First soviet armored vehicle to mount TI was PRP-4 in 1984. First tank to mouint it in real series is T-90 (not the initial 1993. version).

[DRG]

Djuice said:
First Soviet (well, Russian by that time) tank to mount TI was T-80U(M) in 1992. First soviet armored vehicle to mount TI was PRP-4 in 1984. First tank to mouint it in real series is T-90 (not the initial 1993. version).



Which is very close to what we have in the game now but the line is blurred becasue, with this game, Vision over 40 could be either TI OR GSR and treats both equally ( like it or not that's the way the game works ) and we don't model every last version of the AOP GSR vehicles. Starting in 1975, with the introduction of the SNAR there are Russian GSR AOP vehicles with a vision rating of at least 50 which matches the introduction of the Small Fred/ Tall Mike type GSR's to the Russian inventory

Don

[Kuklinovsky]

Djuice said:
First Soviet (well, Russian by that time) tank to mount TI was T-80U(M) in 1992. First soviet armored vehicle to mount TI was PRP-4 in 1984. First tank to mouint it in real series is T-90 (not the initial 1993. version).



Really 1984??? 1984???

Do you have any strong proof on that??? If not, forum experts from "Tucano and Co." will give you an earful as a daft troll, buddy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Anyway all Soviet recon vehicles are malformed in current OOB:

-ARCV-2 - IOC: 1976-1980, vision: 20
-ARCV-2 - IOC: 1981-2004, vision: 30
-PRP-2 - IOC: 1976-1995, vision: 40
-PRP-3 Val - IOC: 1986-2020, vision: 50
-PRP-4 - lack!
-PRP-4MU - IOC: 2002-2020, vision: 60

What a schlock! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[DRG]

All of this was reviewed and corrected long before you started your little crusade. I JUST finished saying that starting in 1975 in the new OOB's the Russian OOB contains AOP vehicles with 50 vision

Strange, I though you had said your farewells a few emails back. Apparently you are not a man of your word.


Don

[Kuklinovsky]

Very interesting! I am very curious about what Soviet AOP model will possess this revolutionary radar from 1975???

PS. Yes, I have already intended to go away but this level of abysmal ignorance shocked me a I had to retort on it in my several last posts! But now I will wait for this "wonderful" version 3.0 upgrade to see what you mess in the game. Then I will come back here with my hot expert analysis of your hack-work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[JaM]

Kulinovsky Guy... Watch your words... WinSPMBT is not a hack! Its one of the best PC games ever.

[Kuklinovsky]

JaM said:
Kulinovsky Guy... Watch your words... WinSPMBT is not a hack! Its one of the best PC games ever.



The Engish term "hack-work" means casual/careless/offhand work but not any computer hacking activity if you don't know this. And as for now I think this is good description of patch 3.0 in my opinion, buddy. As I wrote above I can change my opinion but only after I test WinSPMBT 3.0 myself!

Of course, WinSPMBT is the best! But 3.0 upgrade looks...save your breath! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[DRG]

Four+ months of work judged and trashed without even seeing the patch based solely on the information that few Hinds were having their vision downgraded slightly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You're a real piece of work Kuklinovsky.

Don

[przy]

Don, keep up the good work, don't mind the ramblings of a troll. Honestly, I don't even know why you all respond to him, hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Djuice]

From post 2007 onwards does the Russian receive T-72BM (2006) and T-80BM (2006)? In regards to Orbat..

Oh yeah, do they also have BMPT?

Here some pictures of the T-72BM (2006)

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vid5xe4.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bort4bu6.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shtora1or5.jpg

It's a T-72B upgraded with 3rd generation Relikt Hvy ERA, some 80-90% superior then K-5 Hvy ERA against APFSDS accord to Nii Stali (manufacturer). Nakidka camoflage kit, SLAT/Grill armour over the rear-sides, 2A46M-5 125mm Gun major improvement over the 2A46M-1 with 20% increase in accuracy, comes with muzzle references, new FCS + TI, shtora Anti-missile defence, and new engine 1000hp.

[DRG]

Expand the question. What are you referring to ?

Don

[DRG]

Djuice said:
From post 2007 onwards does the Russian receive T-72BM (2006) and T-80BM (2006)? In regards to Orbat..

Oh yeah, do they also have BMPT?

Here some pictures of the T-72BM (2006)

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vid5xe4.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bort4bu6.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shtora1or5.jpg

It's a T-72B upgraded with 3rd generation Relikt Hvy ERA, some 80-90% superior then K-5 Hvy ERA against APFSDS accord to Nii Stali (manufacturer). Nakidka camoflage kit, SLAT/Grill armour over the rear-sides, 2A46M-5 125mm Gun major improvement over the 2A46M-1 with 20% increase in accuracy, comes with muzzle references, new FCS + TI, shtora Anti-missile defence, and new engine 1000hp.



And how does this T-72MB differ from the T-72BM1 that is already in the game in a number of different versions ? Units 621 and 622 for instance ? and how does the T-80"MB" differ from the T-80UM ? I've found references to the T-72bm but asside from chat rooms nothing on the T-80BM

As for the BMPT, It's already in the OOB's you have now ( unit 879 ) I didn't have a pic for it but I do now.

Don

[Djuice]

And how does this T-72MB differ from the T-72BM1 that is already in the game in a number of different versions ? Units 621 and 622 for instance ?



The new T-72BM has superior armour compared against the T-72B(M) 1989 model, its gun is also more superior, and the FCS is comparable to the T-90A/M variant. It has superiors mobility and with the new comoflage kit, it reduces the rdr/ir signiture of the vehicle greatly therefore reducing its ability to be detected via radar/TI systems. Also Russian only upgrade, not for export.

The T-80BM is inferior in comparison to the T-80UM, only thing is known about it is that its updated the older stock of T-80B in Russian inventory with upgraded armour. Don't think it has updated FCS nor TI. Its fitted with modular Relikt Hvy ERA, which is superior then the older Kontakt-V ERA on the older tanks. Also only a Russian upgrade.

[DRG]

Djuice said:
The new T-72BM has superior armour compared against the T-72B(M) 1989 model, its gun is also more superior, and the FCS is comparable to the T-90A/M variant. It has superiors mobility and with the new comoflage kit, it reduces the rdr/ir signiture of the vehicle greatly therefore reducing its ability to be detected via radar/TI systems. Also Russian only upgrade, not for export.



OK....."The new T-72BM has superior armour compared against the T-72B(M) 1989 model"..... How much more superior ?? Equal to a t-80UM ??.... a T-90 ?? Is this in fact the "T-72BM1" we have in the game but without the upgraded armour or is the T-72BM1 a different vehicle ?



Djuice said:
The T-80BM is inferior in comparison to the T-80UM, only thing is known about it is that its updated the older stock of T-80B in Russian inventory with upgraded armour. Don't think it has updated FCS nor TI. Its fitted with modular Relikt Hvy ERA, which is superior then the older Kontakt-V ERA on the older tanks. Also only a Russian upgrade.



"inferior in comparison to the T-80UM" would be what we have as the T-80BV (unit 787 )but that doesn't have the more advanced ERA. I'm thinking that becasue there is a gap between the one BV we have ( unit 40 ) and the one in unit 787 that perhaps this one was supposed to be the BM but at the time it was put into the OOB's details were sketchy

Don

[Djuice]

Don't even think there is even such a tank called T-72BM1. There is the T-72B(M) which is a T-72B equipped with Kontakt-5 ERA.

Here is a pic of a T-72B(M) 1989 model, you cans see the differences. Tanks in the background are T-72B fitted with Kontakt-1 ERA.

http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t72bmby031sn.jpg

I regards to armour, Relikt is 80-90% superiors against LRP then the Kontakt-5, and just about the same against HEAT type warheads. So takes a T-72B without ERA and add the values up. Heard that Kontakt-5 adds around 150-180mm against LRP and about 350-400mm against HEAT. Relikt would be like 250-300mm against LRP, or somewhere along thoses lines. It's also features an anti-tandem warhead capability unlike the integrated Kontakt-5 ERA fitted on the T-72B, T-80U and T-90. It is also of modular design, allowing for quick removal and installation by field personnel, or crew.

The T-80BM seems to retain the current FCS as the older T-80B, only noticable difference is that it fitted with Relikt ERA, giving it more or less the same amount of armour as a T-80U with Kontakt-5 ERA. So it should have about 700-750mm of frontal armour against LRP or around that. Greatly increasing its survival in a modern battlefield.

Here's a pic. http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8831/t80bmodernizedrelict1hx.jpg

Edit: Also coverage of the frontal turret has improved from 50% on the T-72B with Kontakt-5 ERA to around 60-65% with Relikt.

[DRG]

Djuice said:
Don't even think there is even such a tank called T-72BM1. There is the T-72B(M) which is a T-72B equipped with Kontakt-5 ERA.

Here is a pic of a T-72B(M) 1989 model, you cans see the differences. Tanks in the background are T-72B fitted with Kontakt-1 ERA.




Djuice said:
The new T-72BM has superior armour compared against the T-72B(M) 1989 model,





Djuice said:
It's a T-72B upgraded with 3rd generation Relikt Hvy ERA, some 80-90% superior then K-5 Hvy ERA



OK lets clarify a few things one of the real problems with sorting out Russian equipment is the nomenclature

Is this the progession you are talking about

T-72B basic model no ERA
T-72B(M) first upgrade around 1989 equipped with Kontakt-1 ERA ( or is it Kontakt-5 ERA?? )
T-72BM 3rd generation Relikt Hvy ERA in abouts 2006

??

Answer quick, the patch is built tomorrow......

One last thing. In the game the "T-72BM1" version has VRRSS and the "T-72BM" does not. Which of these models carries a VRRSS type defense

Don

[Djuice]

T-72B basic model no ERA
T-72B(M) first upgrade around 1989 equipped with Kontakt-1 ERA ( or is it Kontakt-5 ERA?? )
T-72BM 3rd generation Relikt Hvy ERA in abouts 2006

??

Answer quick, the patch is built tomorrow......

One last thing. In the game the "T-72BM1" version has VRRSS and the "T-72BM" does not. Which of these models carries a VRRSS type defense



Russian T-72B all have Kontakt-1 ERA. NATO classification is T-72BV for some strange reason, but internal Soviet/Russian classifications is just T-72B.
T-72B(M) is T-72B with Kontakt-5 Heavy ERA.
T-72BM is the newest upgrade in 2006 fitted with Relikt ERA.

There isnt actually a T-72BM1 at all. Smoke grenades changes don't actually classify as a major change therefore there is no need to have it's own designation. For all we know all tanks could use them.

[wulfir]

DRG said:
OK lets clarify a few things one of the real problems with sorting out Russian equipment is the nomenclature



It was probably meant to be confusing, part of the Russians' obsession with maskirovka and all that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DRG]

Part of the problem comes from blended Russian and "NATO" designations and some "domestic" models have different designations than the "export" versions and yes, this has been discussed before, it does seem the nominclature was designed to confuse.

Don

[DRG]

Djuice said:
Don't even think there is even such a tank called T-72BM1. There is the T-72B(M) which is a T-72B equipped with Kontakt-5 ERA.




OK I have this sorted out now . FYI the only difference in the OOB's you have now between the tanks marked T-72BM and T-72BM1 is that the BM1's have "VIRSS" and the "BM's" don't. I have left those but remamed them ( and the "BM"s ) so that players have a choice. If they want the "VIRSS" they can have it if not, they don't. They may all have it....or not. This is a compromise. Removing units causes problems with scenarios if that unit is used and I think in this case it's an acceptable compromise. For those tanks there is now a T-72B(M) and a T-72B(M)* the * in this one case indicates it carries defensive measures.

The T-72BM has been added. We do not model "third" generation ERA. a single digit number is simple era and 11-19 is all "advanced" ERA The compromise to this improved ERA is to increase the number. In this case it now has an "18" for ERA.

I assume the Missles stay the same or have they been upgraded as well?


Don

[BaronvonBeer]

Another piece of equipment that IMO deserves a second look, is the TOW-2B. (understand that this patch is nearly out the door, so certainly not expecting anything to happen this time around, if at all. Then again, never "Expect" anything, as we are owed nothing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

As is, the TOW-2B's 100 "pen" is, I assume, from many sources lumping it and the TOW-2A together, and then listing a penetration value (typically 800 or 1000-1025mm RHA)

This is correct for the TOW-2A, and it's HEAT warhead. However, the TOW-2B does not have a HEAT warhead, but uses dual (E)xplosive (F)ormed (P)enetrators. (In essence KEPs produced from the initial explosion)

Now, in 2 like sized warheads (warhead diameter and thus cone liner diameter for HEAT, dish for EFPs) the EFP is going to have a significantly lesser penetration, but can achieve it at a variable standoff distance, whereas a given HEAT warhead has an ideal standoff detonation distance, anything more or less will reduce capability.

The TOW-2B's warheads (2 offset to increase hit/kill chance) are ~1" smaller, @ 5".

Now finding an exact penetration value is like finding unicorn teeth. However, the physics involved are pretty straightforward (Comparing the principal factors of HEAT penetration to those of Kinetic penetration.) and tell the overall tale.

One set of guesstimates (The SB Pro PE developers and their sources) have it at 350mm RHA. Now as to how accurate that figure is, impossible to say. It is no doubt closer than 1,000mm.

[DRG]

So esentially the 2B is a dual charge warhead ( the effect is similar )

The thing is, in the game the 2b is a different weapon class than the "2a". The 2b's a top attack missle which already has different charateristics built into the class

Don

[JaM]

TOW-2B is a top attack ATGM with EFP, TOW-2A has dual charge warhead and direct attack.

[BaronvonBeer]

Right, it has 2 warheads, but the warheads do not act anything like a HEAT charge, they are completely different beasts.

It forms 2 ballistic penetrators (these are solid mass plates compressed to a bullet(ish) shape, not the super heated/pressurized "jet" of a HEAT warhead. The extent of their similarity is the shape of the explosives within the missile upon detonation. It is at that point that it ends.

These 2 "warheads" are not dual charge in the sense of a HEAT round, with a "spoiling" charge to trigger ERA. It has both going off simultaneously at different angles to ensure a hit as the missile overflies the target.

As far as ERA, there is no "jet" to be disturbed. It is a solid mass kinetic penetrator, same as any AP round fired from a gun tube.
Here (http://www.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_EFP3.jpg) is a photo of a "formed" EFP.

It does not possess the penetration potential of a similar sized HEAT round, but that is not needed to punch through the roof, and largely nullifies ERA same as a SABOT. If it does penetrate though, it has a higher damage potential, creating a larger breach, spalling and all the other nastiness created by a traditional KEP.

As far as in game, the considerations are, how does the 2-B currrently interact with ERA? It should be performing as any other solid AP shot. After that, it's penetration potential. Unless a TA munition's Pen value is divided, the 2-B should be a great deal less.

Now SP clearly must make approximations (both in direct and indirect ways). Simply wondering if as is, it is the best one for this system, and if it is both over &amp; undercapable under different circumstances as a result.

[Marcello]

"So esentially the 2B is a dual charge warhead"

Not exactly.There are two warheads but it is not a multicharge, the two warheads point in different directions. The TOW-2B, or the BILL 2 for that matter, are not "top attack" in the same sense the Javelin is. They fly horizontally like like a conventional ATGM but instead of hitting the tank directly they overfly it.When the missile is above the target the warheads, which point towards the ground, are ignited. This is less complicated than a Javelin style approach.

[Smersh]

# T-72 - Original version, optical range-finder.

# T-72A - Added side skirts, additional armour, laser range-finder, electronic fire control system, smoke grenade launchers.

# T-72B - Thicker armour, composite armour in front of turret and front of hull. AT-11 "Svir" laser-guided antitank missile capability. Has the thickened frontal turret armor and is commonly known in the United States as the Dolly Parton.

# T-72AV, T-72BV - models with early Kontakt explosive reactive armour ("V" for vzryvnoi ‘explosive’).

# T-72B1 - T-72B without ATGM capability.

# T-72BK - Command version of T-72B, recognizable by having multiple radio antennas.

# T-72B(M) - T-72B equipped with advanced Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour, composite armour in sides of turret as well.

# T-72M - Soviet export version, similar to T-72A (built also in Poland and ex-Czechoslovakia).

# T-72M1 - Soviet export version, with thicker armour (built also in Poland and ex-Czechoslovakia).

[Marek_Tucan]

Just a note, T-72A and M1 got composite armour on turret, T-72M was basically cast-turret T-72 upgraded to T-72A/M1 standard in FC, ammo storage, smoke grenade launchers and side skirts (and LRF).
For example Czechoslovakia had:
T-72 - original Soviet supply, optical RF
T-72 - Czechoslovakian production, LRF
T-72M - see above
T-72M1 - as M, with comp. armor

Of course, lately also T-72M4CZ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[JaM]

Actually there were two versions of T-72A. First 1978 with standard glacis armor(330mm against KE) and 1983 with additional glacis armor (+16mm HHS = 400mm against KE). Same armor addon was used in T-72M1, So we can say that T-72A 1978 = T-72M, T72A 1983 = T-72M1

[Djuice]

According to certain sources Russian T-72A never received the 16mm HHS upgrade for their T-72A, but the ones in the their inventory were actually T-72M1, possibly stock that they couldn't sell.

[JaM]

Hm,can you post link. In my sources i found that all tanks(T-64A,T-72A,T-64B) were upgraded after tests with Israli M111 wich was capable to penetrate standard glacis from 1500-2000m.

[DRG]

FYI, the V3 Patch should be available the morning of Tuesday January 23,2007. ( EST) Check the Shrapnel main page then for details on downloading it

It is now 27MB in size

Don

[RVPERTVS]

That´s excellent news Don, I´m eagerly waiting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Regards
Robert

[Sarunas]

Super!

I assume since my question on phantom post-PGM arty went unanswered that the bug remains?

Anyway, thanks for not abandoning this game!

[DRG]

We cannot reproduce it on our development games. When or If we can, we'll fix it.

Don

[TopperHarley]

Jolly good!

Hmmm, "morning (EST)" must be sometime after work local time. Guess Tuesday will be WinSPMBT-day.

[DRG]

IDK when exactly it will be posted. I don't handle that end of things but if it goes up first thing in the morning here that would be mid afternoon in Europe. Check when you get up anyway, you never know...

Don

[Smersh]

Århus? isn't that the place in Sweden where Absolut Vodka is made

I'm looking forward to tommorow

[DRG]

No,Absolut Vodka is made in Åhus Sweden not Århus, Denmark

Don

[TopperHarley]

Getting a bit offtopic here, but Århus is best known now as the city where the paper "Morgenavisen Jyllandsposten" is based. They printed some cartoons a while back...

[CFeicht]

And good ones they were, too.

C.

[Annette]

News Release For Immediate Release


winSPMBT Version 3.0 Thunders Onto The Battlefield!
New Upgrade Absolutely Packed With Enhancements!


Hampstead, NC, 23 January 2007

The Camo Workshop and Shrapnel Games are pleased to announce that a new upgrade to
the smash-hit winSPMBT is available for immediate download. Weighing in around 27
MB in size, the version 3.0 upgrade patch is positively bursting at its electronic seams
under the weight of its contents, featuring plenty of new material and updates to previous
content.

The upgrade patch contains the following exciting material, making an already superb
game even better with such items as:

* NEW! 25 Additional scenarios! Remember, there is never such a thing as too many
scenarios.

* UPDATED! 89 previously released scenarios have been tweaked and updated.

* ADDED! Six campaigns, previously available online, have been added.

* NEW and UPDATED! 29 brand new maps, one updated previously released map.

* UPDATED! 113 AI picklists have been updated, along with one leader name file,
and six updated ranks files.

* NEW! 687 new photos!

* NEW and UPDATED! Over 400 icons, both new and revised!

* UPDATED! 92 updated OOB files, updated cost calculator, and updated MOBHack!

That's right, all that in one amazing upgrade patch! What other companies would
package as an expansion disc the Camo Workshop and Shrapnel Games proudly give you
as an absolutely free patch. And as they say on late night commercials, but wait, there's
more!

Not only does the version 3.0 upgrade patch include all the above great enhancements, it
also includes several bug fixes, code changes, and other tweaks to the game. Some of the
bug fixes include units cloned in the scenario editor were not retaining their weapon
changes made by the user when the scenario in question was reloaded in the editor or
simply played. This has been fixed. Another issue was that barge carriers were creating
new barges when saved games were loaded, this has been fixed.

Some of the tweaks to the game itself include a maximum point limit of 65,000 from the
original 50,000 point limit. Short range effects in infantry combat and artillery
effectiveness against armor were both a tad high, and have been toned down.
Retreat/rally hexes have been added to the game, and multi-charge HEAT has been added
as a new weapon class and all HEAT ammo now has secondary HE ability.

Enhanced CD version owners also get some exclusive enhancements. Opfire filtering has
been added, and ScenHack and CampaignHack are also included in this latest patch.
Both ScenHack and CampaignHack were also included with the last version of
winSPWW2 for Enhanced CD owners, and have been rewritten for use with winSPMBT.
If you don't own the Enhanced CD version yet, why wait any longer? Start enjoying all
the perks of the Enhanced CD!

In addition to the above changes many, many more tweaks and changes are present. For a
complete list check out our website.

The version 3.0 upgrade patch applies to both the FREE version available for download
and the Enhanced CD version available for purchase and may be downloaded directly at:

www.shrapnelgames.com/SPCamo/wSPMBT/6.htm (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/SPCamo/wSPMBT/6.htm)

winSPMBT is the updated version of the much beloved classic SSI tactical game, Steel
Panthers 2: Modern Battles. The Camo Workshop, a group of highly dedicated fans, have
been upgrading the original classic since 1998 and in doing so spawned not just the
ultimate super-mod for a game, but created a classic by its own right.

winSPMBT is a fully functional, standalone game based on the original Steel Panthers 2:
Modern Battles code. At its core fans will appreciate finding the same turn-driven, hex-
based tactical gameplay that made Steel Panthers so addictive. The Camo Workshop,
over the years, has broken down and rebuilt the original game, making it the ultimate
turn-based wargame of modern combined arms conflict. Boasting refinements in all
areas, from graphics to equipment databases to scenarios, winSPMBT is not simply a port
of an old DOS game to the era of Windows but a total rebirth.

Available both as a FREE download or an Enhanced CD edition for only $39.95 (which
adds higher resolutions, a more intense map editor, and other enhancements for the
serious Steel Panthers fanatic), winSPMBT has been a constant fan favorite.

For more information on winSPMBT or any of our other award-winning games, please
visit us at www.shrapnelgames.com. (http://www.shrapnelgames.com.) There you'll find our complete catalog of titles,
including the sister game of winSPMBT, winSPWW2, dedicated to the years of modern
conflict prior to 1946.

[Marek_Tucan]

Yippee!

[markgame]

Downloaded and installed. Very cool. I still don't know what I'm doing a lot of the time, but now I have more features to blame it on! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[mr_clark]

Well, thank you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

(HOORAY!)

[RVPERTVS]

Downloaded, installed and running!
Thank you Camo Team!
I still need to get used to the new features but looks great so far.

Regards
Robert

[JaM]

Don, Andy, thank You very much for your hard work!

[Smersh]

big thanks.

[Shan]

Great news - you're about the only software company nowadays which releases something ahead of schedule! - I thought I read somewhere it would only be ready at the end of the month... good job!

I'll have to wait before I can install it, however, as I have 3 really cool PBEM games running (finally found some opponents!)

[BaronvonBeer]

Thanks for the continued updates. Really like the new HEAT HE capability!

[DRG]

Thanks for the support guys. We do appreciate it

Don

[Sgt_Walrus]

Hi Shan

Do a second installation if you have the space.
The game has no conflicts if there are more than one install on the same drive.

At least that way you can have a play with the new features while you wait to finish your battles.

Cheers
SGT

[Dedas]

Great work guys!

[Double_Deuce]

Sgt_Walrus said:Do a second installation if you have the space.


This is what I did so it does work. I moved my 2.51 to another directory, then did a clean install from start to end (using my CD, not the base game DL).

All went well and I'm up and running without issue.

[Nox]

WERY NICE! Tank you Don and Andy.

[Randy]

Can we buy a new CD which has the ver 3.0? My installs of the patches do not seem to load. I loaded them in order, but when I start the game the old version is still on the opening page. Thanks

[Mobhack]

Did you install the game to a different directory path from the default?. e.g on a D: drive perhaps.

If so, you need to point the patch installers at where you installed the game.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

... and that's the only reason that would happen. Check what directory your shortcut is starting the game from then check where you installed the patches.

Don

[Randy]

Thanks for that information, I'll check it out. Thanks