Errors in Belgian OOB

[VDS]

Belgian OOB 27 -
Unit 249 (Crew) has availability date of 1/48 to 12/99.

Units 534,535,540,and 541(Paras)have a size of 0, but have 6 men.

[DRG]

Good catch on the crew. Crew have no formation so our checks don't look for that. I'll check all the OOB's for this

6 man para sections being size zero is a grey area. I'll run checks on the rest of the OOB's and see what else pops up size zero

Don

[VDS]

DRG said:
Good catch on the crew. Crew have no formation so our checks don't look for that. I'll check all the OOB's for this

6 man para sections being size zero is a grey area. I'll run checks on the rest of the OOB's and see what else pops up size zero

Don



Glad to be of some help, however minute it is.

Re: the size on the para teams, I wasn't sure about it either but I have never seen another unit with crew 6 being size 0. Not saying that there are none, I certainly could be mistaken...

[DRG]

VDS said:
Glad to be of some help, however minute it is.

Re: the size on the para teams, I wasn't sure about it either but I have never seen another unit with crew 6 being size 0. Not saying that there are none, I certainly could be mistaken...



Fun fact ---There are 33997 units in all the OOB's in MBT That means there are are Two million, three hundred and eleven thousand ,seven hundred and ninety six individual data entries that all have to have to be "correct" before nobody complains anymore <G> And that's just the units. There are weapons and formations that also figure into the equation

The size issue is under review. It looks like there may be a few things that have stayed from the path of righteousness over the years. That squad may be one of them but as I said, it's under review

Don

[DRG]

VDS said:
Re: the size on the para teams, I wasn't sure about it either but I have never seen another unit with crew 6 being size 0. Not saying that there are none, I certainly could be mistaken...



Another fun fact, your Belgian 6 man para unit are not alone in being size zero, There are 117 other infantry units in the OOB's with more than 5 men and size zero ( an issue, as I said, that is under review )

Don

[VDS]

DRG said:

VDS said:
Glad to be of some help, however minute it is.

Re: the size on the para teams, I wasn't sure about it either but I have never seen another unit with crew 6 being size 0. Not saying that there are none, I certainly could be mistaken...



Fun fact ---There are 33997 units in all the OOB's in MBT That means there are are Two million, three hundred and eleven thousand ,seven hundred and ninety six individual data entries that all have to have to be "correct" before nobody complains anymore <G> And that's just the units. There are weapons and formations that also figure into the equation
Don




Yikes! I guessed it was a a lot but those #s are staggering. I want you to know that my "error posts" are not critiques or meant to be snide, I have nothing but admiration for the SP-CAMO team. The way you guys support the game and take pride in being as accurate as possible is THE reason I finally decided to buy the CD version, even though I've only been able to find part-time work since the first time I posted here.


DRG said:

Another fun fact, your Belgian 6 man para unit are not alone in being size zero, There are 117 other infantry units in the OOB's with more than 5 men and size zero ( an issue, as I said, that is under review )

Don





LOL - I certainly was mistaken!

[DRG]

VDS said:
Yikes! I guessed it was a lot but those #s are staggering. I want you to know that my "error posts" are not critiques or meant to be snide, I have nothing but admiration for the SP-CAMO team. The way you guys support the game and take pride in being as accurate as possible is THE reason I finally decided to buy the CD version, even though I've only been able to find part-time work since the first time I posted here.



And I didn't take it as snide. ( some few do come off with "attitude", you don't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

The crew issue actually affected 8 other OOB's as well with the very best one being Israel where the crew inservice dates were 1948 - 1955 ( !! ) However, "crew" is the one and ONLY unit in the game where in service dates have no affect in the game. Crews will pop out of Israeli tanks past 1955 without problem becasue the code ejects a crew, if it survives, no matter what and that is why there is only one "crew" for each OOB and that's why they all must be in unit slot 249 ( and why there must always be a Barge in slot 247 )

Don

[VDS]

Incorrect Unit in Belgian OOB#27
Unit #211, Puma Helicopter should be removed. It was never used by the Army but by the Rijkswacht (Federal Police).
Links -
http://belmilac.wetpaint.com/page/Aerospatiale+SA.330C-L-H+Puma
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
http://www.ailes-militaires-belges.be/police_federale.htm (in French)

[VDS]

Corrections to Aloutte II/III in Belgian OOB#27
Since 2004, all of these ancient helos are used only for training and liason. All will be retired this year.
Units 210 and 267 should not be available after January 31st, 2004.
Links -
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/orbat_010704.htm
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm

[VDS]

Corrections to A109 Agustas in Belgian OOB
Mostly minor stuff, but for the sake of accuracy the following designations are now used by the Heli Wing of the Belgian Air Force.
Correct designation of the Belgian A109 is A109BA (for Belgian Army). With the following roles :

A109BA AH(L)-TOW2A = Anti-Tank
Is Unit 207 Agusta A109HA in Belgian OOB - should be configured with TOW2A Missiles, not TOW2, otherwise correct.
Should be renamed to A109BA AH/L-TOW (?)

A109BA AH(L)-Rockets =Ground Support
Is Unit 268 Agusta A109 in Belgian OOB- should have no 12.7MG, just the rockets. (May have thermal sights, still researching)
Should be renamed to A109BA AH/L-R (?)

A109BA UH(L)-AE =MedEvac
A109BA UH(L)-Tpt =Transport
A109BA OH(L) =Observation
Is Unit 208 Agusta A109 in Belgian OOB- covers all three roles accurately enough.
Should be renamed to A109BA UH/L (?)

A109BA UH(L)-MG =Armed Recce
Is not present in OOB, should be added with 2 x FN MAG MMG, Weapon # 23, each w/ 20xHE Ammo, no passenger capacity, and Vision 20. (May have thermal sights, still researching)
Should be named to A109BA UH/L-MG (?)

Also availablity for all models should start from January 1992, not 1993.

Links -
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/orbat_010704.htm
http://belmilac.wetpaint.com/page/Agusta+A109BA+Hirundo
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
http://www.ailes-militaires-belges.be/images/alft/a109-mag-grosplan.jpg

[VDS]

Should be added to Belgian OOB -
Eagle B-Hunter UAV, 18 active January 2004 w/FLIR. (I can supply pics if needed)
Links -
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
http://www.deagel.com/Tactical-Support-Airplanes/Hunter-II_a000635003.aspx
http://www.iai.co.il/Default.aspx?docID=24086&FolderID=16730&lang=en
http://www.mil.be/aircomp/units/index.asp?LAN=nl&ID=620 (in Dutch)

[DRG]

VDS said:
Incorrect Unit in Belgian OOB#27
Unit #211, Puma Helicopter should be removed. It was never used by the Army but by the Rijkswacht (Federal Police).
Links -
http://belmilac.wetpaint.com/page/Aerospatiale+SA.330C-L-H+Puma
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
http://www.ailes-militaires-belges.be/police_federale.htm (in French)



The problem with this otherwise good idea is that renders the Belgians without a "heavy lifting" helicopter after 1998. So either the Army "borrows" these from the Federal Police or we find something else to take it's place or we end the formation in 1998

This page .. http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
says they ended service in 1998 anyway

Aerospatiale SA330L/H Puma OL-G01 > OL-G03 3 07/73 > 05/98

Don

[VDS]

DRG said:

VDS said:
Incorrect Unit in Belgian OOB#27
Unit #211, Puma Helicopter should be removed. It was never used by the Army but by the Rijkswacht (Federal Police).
Links -
http://belmilac.wetpaint.com/page/Aerospatiale+SA.330C-L-H+Puma
http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
http://www.ailes-militaires-belges.be/police_federale.htm (in French)



The problem with this otherwise good idea is that renders the Belgians without a "heavy lifting" helicopter after 1998. So either the Army "borrows" these from the Federal Police or we find something else to take it's place or we end the formation in 1998

This page .. http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Belgian_Aviation_History/BAFAircraft/Bafallaircraft_1945_today.htm
says they ended service in 1998 anyway

Aerospatiale SA330L/H Puma OL-G01 > OL-G03 3 07/73 > 05/98

Don



There are plans to buy 10 NH90 helos, but who knows when they will be available. 2010 at the earliest would be my guess and most (if not all) will be used by the Navy.

http://www.luchtzak.be/article10790.html

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/01/belgium-purchases-nh90-helis-iveco-trucks-secondhand-frigates/index.php

[Jan]

(...)
The problem with this otherwise good idea is that renders the Belgians without a "heavy lifting" helicopter after 1998. So either the Army "borrows" these from the Federal Police or we find something else to take it's place or we end the formation in 1998
(...)
Don



when we are on belgian territory, we mostly use our SeaKing for "heavy" lifting (it can transport one to two fully equiped infantry section) or the A109BA UH(L) (wich can transport one section).

When we are in operations, we are also using other nations choppers, often the french Puma.

About the NH90, they will be 4 NFH version that will be delivered in 2009, 4 TTH version (for wich i don't know the delivery date) and 2 SAR version that will be delivered in 2008 to replace the SeaKings.

cheers,

Jan

[DRG]

Jan said:when we are on belgian territory, we mostly use our SeaKing for "heavy" lifting (it can transport one to two fully equiped infantry section) or the A109BA UH(L) (wich can transport one section).
Jan



Hello Jan

This would imply the SeaKing is still in service with the Belgian armed forces???

Don

[JohnHale]

That's right, Don: the remaining Sea King Mk 48s soldier on in service with 40 Smaldeel.

The ever-useful Scramble site:

http://www.scramble.nl/be.htm

(look under Koksijde)


John

[DRG]

Yes well, we've been squeezing out more operational life from our SeaThings as well. I will adjust the OOB

Don

[DRG]

Do you happen to know how long they have been using the Alouette III ? I see it's still listed on that website

Don

[Smersh]

The Belgian OBB does not have any paratroop company formations.

Instead there is an odd looking platoon formation (244).

There is a ParaCommando company formation (261), but this formation is only avialable until 1956. This is odd, considering a Paracommando regiment took part in operations in Congo in 1964, and as far as I know agian in 1978.

"The Paracommandos, or paras as they referred to themselves, became a single regiment in 1952. The 1er Bataillon Parachutists SAS, which evolved from the 1st Belgian SAS Squadron of World War II, and the 1er Bataillon Commando, formerly a troop of the 10th Interallied Commando, were unified and redesignated as the Belgian Paracommando Regiment. Many of its members had served with the Belgian contingent in Korea. During the next eight years, the regiment served both as a NATO unit and as the Belgian Army's principal shock force in the Congo. In 1964, the regiment consisted of three battalions: the 1st Parachute Battalion, the 2d Commando Battalion, and the 3d Parachute Battalion. In addition, the regiment contained a regimental headquarters, the Commando Training Center, and the Parachute Training Center. Despite the different unit designations, each battalion received the same training and missions"

Edit:Great site with more useful information: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Belgium/Para_Commandos/default.htm

[JohnHale]

Don,

Three Alouettes were acquired for the Belgian Navy in 1971. In-service date would appear to be March 1971, according to this:

http://belmilac.wetpaint.com/page/Sud+Aviation+SA.316B+Alouette+III


Cheers,


John