The Middle Way - Faerun EA [Need Replacement]

[Hellboy]

This game will be played on the Faerun map in the early age. I am starting with the map that Hadrian II edited (starting from Edi's map) for his Faerun PBM game (here). Hadrian II's map is attached here, but I'll be doing some edits prior to starting, most notably I'll remove all the indy fortresses.

I'm looking for 16 players in this game and I'm aiming at intermediate players, but newbies are welcome. I'll not turn away veterans, but if you're a top player in veteran games, this game might be underpowered for you. For newbies, the one thing I really don't want to see is a turn 2 or 3 drop (and I've seen 4 of those in my first two Dom3 games). For that reason please be sure you're ready for a 6 month commitment on a large map game. You should have at least played the tutorial and/or a SP game through 20 turns, with a pretender similar to the one you're playing here.

I would love to see this game get started w/ a 5 - 15 turn blitz, but I know that will be difficult in a large player game. If we're having difficulty getting 16 players, we might considering starting w/ some AI positions set on "impossible"


Server:
IP: 24.17.189.161 Port: 1024

Settings:
Hall of Fame: 15
Magic Site Frequency: 50
Renaming: on
Graphs: off
Others are standard

Hosting Schedule:
28hr QH, moving to 52hr QH later

Victory Conditions:
Consent of surviving players

Mods:
Worthy Heroes

Contacting Host:
kirkpp at yahoo dot com

On Stales and Lost Causes:There is no hard and fast rule, but 3 successive stales are sufficient cause to be set to AI, unless you have communicated with the host (me). A complete lack of communication combined with numerous stales also justifies setting to AI.
I know from experience that it's depressing to playing a losing position, but your fellow players will appreciate it when you "give hell" to those taking you out. Still its clearly better to go AI then to stale indefinitely, but it would be appreciated if you would announce your intention to go AI on this thread, prior to doing so.

On Lost Internet Access, Broken Computers, or whatever: If you have for any reason lost your ability to contact the game server and get your turns in, in order to get an extension, you will still need to contact the host (me) directly with two pieces of information:
1) ETA on resolution of your issue, and
2) player password

Otherwise I may reassign the position or set to AI, at my discretion. I realize that in this circumstance it is likely that whatever technical difficulties are occuring will make it a problem to contact me. Nonetheless, internet cafes exist, friend's computers exist, work computers exist, and all that is necessary is bare minimum internet access in order to contact me (either by email or PM).
With contact, reassignment is still possible, depending on how long the ETA (but generally substitutions should be temporary). As the game goes on it will become more likely that extensions will be given.

Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=474483&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post474483) (multiplayer tips 1 and 2) will be in effect. (You don't have to role play, although it is encouraged, but you do have to be civil.)

Players:
1. Abysia - Sandman
2. Agartha - Tyrant
3. Arcoscephale - Darrel
4. Atlantis - Meglobob
5. Ermor - Jay Thomas (AI)
6. Hellheim - Amhazair
7. Kailasa - Foodstamp
8. Lanka - Shovah32 (defeated)
9. Marverni - Teraswaerto (AI)
10. Mictlan - WSzaboPeter (defeated)
11. Niefleheim - jazzepi
12. Pangaea - Dedas
13. R'lyeh - Baalz
14. Sauromatia - llamabeast
15. T'ien Ch'i - Hellboy
16. Yomi - Izzyz


Links:
Location for downloadable Faerun map (http://www.strife.com/dominions-2/files.htm#maps) (you will need Faerun_large_v2, and Faerun_large.tga within that).
Worthy Heroes v1.6 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=470523)

[Foodstamp]

Thanks for adding me!

Feedback:
CB: Either way
Worthy Heroes: Yes (sounds fun)
Graphs: Either way

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[DrPraetorious]

I'd like to try EA Ulm.

I am mainly agnostic with respect to mods and settings but cannot tolerate CB.

[Evilhomer]

graphs on would be prefered if this will be victory point setting, since else the game will just end and many will just surprised about the end, having no clue that player x was winning...

[Tyrant]

That's a good point Evilhomer, i'll vote yes on graphs if we are playing VP and abstain if we are not.

[Teraswaerto]

I agree with Evilhomer on graphs. Usually I like graphs off, since all that information really is supposed to be gathered with scouts - or not gathered, if you think you can risk being ignorant.

However, with some kind of victory conditions that can end the game suddenly for no apparent reason, graphs should be used.

Furthermore the victory condition, if any is used, should be such that in order to win one player would have to control more than half of the provinces/VPs, maybe 60-70%.

I prefer games without victory conditions since they end naturally, and you can't use the mechanics to win before you've actually beat all your enemies. A player may lose practically all their provinces to raids and still come back, just as someone may attack 50 provinces in one turn with Cloud Trapeze or some such and not be in a position to win if there are no victory conditions.

[Evilhomer]

Teraswaerto consider how large this map actually is. If the wictory condition is more than half the provinces/60-70% victory points the winning player will have to rule an empire of 250+ lands. I shudder at the thought of making all the scripting/strategic decisions for such an empire, not to mention the 100's of turns getting to that size.

Victory condition should preferably be attainable within a reasonable amount of time.

[Teraswaerto]

It's true that the map is rather huge... That doesn't change the fact though, that with something like 40% of provinces there is no quarantee that the winner is in an utterly dominant position.

In the late stages of the game, on large maps, winning isn't just a matter of skill, but also of endurance. If there are no victory conditions it's not uncommon that the few remaining empires agree to allied victory simply because they balk at the amount of work going to war would be. Is that a bad thing? Don't know really.

If owning more than half of all provinces is too much, then VPs are better, since it's easier to grasp what exactly is needed to win.

[Dedas]

My votes:

CB: No
Worthy Heroes: Yes
Graphs: Yes

[Evilhomer]

Roughly when are you planing on starting this game?

[Amhazair]

Is there any particular reason you want to limit this game to 16 persons? The map is easily big enough to accomodate everyone willing to play imho.

[Hellboy]

Right now, I'm hearing more votes for graphs off, than graphs on, so I'm going with graphs off (at least for the moment). As posters have noted, there is a dependency w/ victory conditions, so I could imagine changing this if we end up going w/ VPs.



Teraswaerto said:
...

I prefer games without victory conditions since they end naturally, and you can't use the mechanics to win before you've actually beat all your enemies. A player may lose practically all their provinces to raids and still come back, just as someone may attack 50 provinces in one turn with Cloud Trapeze or some such and not be in a position to win if there are no victory conditions.

...




I agree with this, and overall this is my intent regarding how this game should be won. I would suggest then that the primary way of ascertaining victory is simply by consensus of the players still alive.

However, as you have stated this map is in fact huge, and I think this means that the end game could become rather tedious and painful for those that stick it out. In general I suspect that barring raiding tricks, the outcome of most Dom3 games becomes inevitable once one player controls 40%+ of the resources (maybe gem income [including item hoards] is more important than # of provinces? The value (imo), then of either using VPs or province totals is that they can serve to estimate who will become the inevitable winner, and save time in playing out a tedious endgame.

In any case, I think that if we set a victory condition of 70% control of provinces, this would at least give an "out" to a dominant player, playing against someone too stubborn to concede. Now, I would say the value of 70% is in fact tremendously conservative, most especially on this huge map. I would hope that if I am the victorious player, I can win with never having to manage a 200+ province empire.

Also, while I do believe that we want to avoid the raid type of victory that happened in this game (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=474486&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1), I just don't see myself losing sleep over a raid involving cloud trapeze into 50 provinces.

So, at this point I see myself leaning towards a game that I would hope will end by consensus, but that still has some kind of province count condition in it (maybe 50%?). But, in my admittedly limited experience on seeing these games go through to completion, I'm flexible on setting the number.

To put it more pedantically, 70% is very, very safe that no one will "steal" a victory, but at the same time holds little value in enforcing victory against a stubborn player(s). While perhaps 40% still holds some risk of the stolen victory, it has more value of forcing the question.

[Meglobob]

Set victory to 1 province over half of all provinces on the map. So if there is 422 provinces, set victory at 212 provinces. Anyone who owns half the world, in my book as won. No one can get to this sort of total, without everyone knowing whats going on, graphs on or off.

[Hellboy]

Amhazair said:
Is there any particular reason you want to limit this game to 16 persons? The map is easily big enough to accomodate everyone willing to play imho.

Well, at least by the province numbers, this is true. However, I am somewhat concerned about starting positions. In my limited experience on the Faerun map, once I go over 16 players, I always seem to see at least two positions that end up pretty near each other. I think this might be true because (perhaps) there are a lot of nostart provinces, and those nostart provinces are not evenly distributed.

So, I am willing to add another land position (or possibly more), if most players think that is a good idea, but please beware that this will increase the chances that two players end up unreasonably close, or one or more players get screwed in their startup.

I'll have another post shortly where I'll comment on the Faerun map and startup positions, as there may be some partial fixes I can do in editing the map. Bottom line, I think that on the Faerun map you can't look at provinces/player alone, and I suspect the risk of player(s) getting short changed goes up rapidly as we increase above 16.

Edit: Oh yeah, one more thing - I do think it is unwise to add a 3d sea position, the sea players get screwed even when you just look at the # of sea provinces per sea player, in this case.

[Hellboy]

Meglobob said:
Set victory to 1 province over half of all provinces on the map. So if there is 422 provinces, set victory at 212 provinces. Anyone who owns half the world, in my book as won. No one can get to this sort of total, without everyone knowing whats going on, graphs on or off.

Personally, I'm fine with this.

[Hellboy]

Evilhomer said:
Roughly when are you planing on starting this game?



Good Question! I honestly didn't expect this game to fill up so fast. Originally I was thinking to start on Friday or Saturday (just based on how long it took big games to fill), but I can move that up to Wednesday evening (PST), perhaps. I still need to spend a significant amount of time editing the Faerun map, and testing the server.

So, this is not a requirement for the game, and I realize it may be impossible with so many players, but I did at least want to put out the idea of doing a short blitz (1-2hrs) on either Saturday or Sunday. I guess that if we did it early afternoon EST (GMT - 5, iirc), I think that would cover a lot of time zones at vaguely reasonable hours. Is this even remotely possible?

If a blitz is not possible, it would still be nice to see if we can't crank through some of these early turns this coming weekend. Blitz or no, it would be lovely to get well into the teens (turn number-wise), by Monday.

Incidentally, I will be out for Feb 13th, 14th and most of 15th, so I will need to set the server to 72hr QH over that period.

[Amhazair]

Terrel said:

Amhazair said:
Is there any particular reason you want to limit this game to 16 persons? The map is easily big enough to accomodate everyone willing to play imho.

Well, at least by the province numbers, this is true. However, I am somewhat concerned about starting positions. In my limited experience on the Faerun map, once I go over 16 players, I always seem to see at least two positions that end up pretty near each other. I think this might be true because (perhaps) there are a lot of nostart provinces, and those nostart provinces are not evenly distributed.




Fair enough. I don't mind more people comming in if they want to play, but if you (and/or others) want to keep it at 16 that's equally fine.

[Evilhomer]

On the subject of more people: I don't mind more people if our host manages to fix the map to incorporate this (i.e not to close starting positions)

blitz: Blits sounds like really fun idea and would get the game started, both days would work for me but I would prefer to do it on sunday.

[Meglobob]

I am happy to start wednesday if possible. Also I can blitz for a couple of hours saturday or sunday afternoon GMT -5.

[Tyrant]

I've actually played an all-player DomII game on this map, and i gotta say, the very concept of someone taking even 40% of the provences boggles the mind. That game ended in exhaustion at turn 120ish, long after an anonymous smart alec had Wished for the apocolypse SEVEN times. IIRC, there were 10 players left even still, castles in most provences, and 4 or 5 players with vast empires and defences so mighty that any thought of destoying them was madness. No one really did or could claim total victory, i think all of us that were big and mighty were satisfied that we had succeeded, and , by my way of thinking at least, anyone still alive at all got glory points.

I'm fine with any VP method that does not let someone win a cheap and easy victory, and perfectly happy to just count points when we are done.(or not if the graphs are off). To me, it is one of the virtues of Edi's masterpiece is that it is effectivly unconquerable and one is left to pursue one's fate in a local theater of the wider world.

[Amhazair]

Hmm, I'm afraid I'll have to go out to a birthday party around 8'ish CET = 2EST on saturday, so any afternoon blitz will be very short I'm afraid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Sunday I'm free as a bird (for now...)

[Tyrant]

I cannot blitz on Saturday, i could do sunday afternoon.

[Hellboy]

General Comments:

As I mentioned in my initial posts it is my intention to start w/ Hadrian's map and make some edits from there. That said, there are a couple of variations and issues that are worth discussing. Starting from Edi's original and most excellent work on the Faerun map, as contained in the file "Faerun_large_v2.rar" (for which I need to repair the link in the initial post, and will do so shortly), I think there are 2 critical changes which I will certainly include:

Removal of fixed start positions (as Hadrian did)
Removal of all indy fortresses

Less critically, but hopefully useful, I will closely examine the neighbor listing, and see if I can't fix any mismatches between the visual map borders and the neighbor list.


Starting Positions:

One thing I am quite certain of is that whether we have 16 players or 18 players, some player (or possibly more than one) will get screwed in their starting position. This is not a reason for restart, and this applies to everyone (including myself). If you happen to be that player, it would be much appreciated if you soldier on, and make life as inconvenient as possible for your better endowed neighbors. Also remember that in a diplomacy based game such as Dom3, coming from behind in even the worst starting positions is always possible.

All that said, I am more than happy to make some changes that will reduce the chances of players getting screwed and/or increasing the number of players (and perhaps adjusting the edit strategy to accommodate this).

For example, I know that one of the more likely ways to get screwed is to have your starting position come up in certain locations in the western islands (e.g. The Moonshae Islands). I could go through all of those, and make them all nostart, but I think that would be unwise as it would greatly increase the odds of starting close to another player (since so many land provinces would be eliminated as starting candidates) and it would also favor starting positions in the area of the Sword Coast (since they would have this big indy back yard area).

The better solution would be closely examine all those islands and make any one of them w/ 2 or less land neighbors a nostart. I can attempt this, but I would not want to be held accountable for missing one, and if someone still got screwed by landing in an island w/ just 2 neighbors, that would not be reason for restart.

All the above said, I still welcome input on this kind of edit, and the number of players we start with (especially from anyone w/ experience on or knowledge of the Faerun map).


Other Faerun Edits:

The main other point for discussion is the VP provinces that Hadrian set up. Personally, I like the idea that there are a number of very tough provinces out there, and that they would remain indy until the time in the game when the Uniques are beginning to be summoned. At least so long as the rewards for those provinces are correspondingly high.

From playing on Hadrian's map, I have the impression that his VP provinces are just as I have described above. However, I don't have a ton of experience on his map, and so I'd like to open up the discussion on that point. Also, if someone wants to make the point that Edi's "Faerun_large_v2.rar" file, w/ the map file "Faerun_large.map" has better special locations than Hadrian's version, then I'd be willing to consider that, as well.

However the editing procedes, the one goal that I intend to stick to, however, is that there are a number of special provinces that are impractical to take w/ just your national troops.

[Hellboy]

Tyrant said:
I've actually played an all-player DomII game on this map, and i gotta say, the very concept of someone taking even 40% of the provences boggles the mind. That game ended in exhaustion at turn 120ish, long after an anonymous smart alec had Wished for the apocolypse SEVEN times. IIRC, there were 10 players left even still, castles in most provences, and 4 or 5 players with vast empires and defences so mighty that any thought of destoying them was madness. No one really did or could claim total victory, i think all of us that were big and mighty were satisfied that we had succeeded, and , by my way of thinking at least, anyone still alive at all got glory points.

I'm fine with any VP method that does not let someone win a cheap and easy victory, and perfectly happy to just count points when we are done.(or not if the graphs are off). To me, it is one of the virtues of Edi's masterpiece is that it is effectivly unconquerable and one is left to pursue one's fate in a local theater of the wider world.


This sounds like good & relevant experience. I would say that this sort of outcome would be good (maybe even desireable). Based on this I think that for a victory condition, going as low as 40% of the provinces is reasonable, and that even then we may well not see any clear victor (at least not by province count alone).

[RamsHead]

I know I am not participating in this game, but I thought I might be able to help out. With regards to the Western Islands, you can place a Navigators Guild in one of the provinces. I think the magic site allows you to recruit sailing commanders.

[Foodstamp]

*****Possible spoiler warning******





















I am not 100% certain, but I believe in dominions 2 this map had a navigator's guild in the Waterdeep province. If all the special provinces are still intact from the transition to dominions 3, you may not even need to add a navigator's guild.

[Amhazair]

Foodstamp said:
*****Possible spoiler warning******





















I am not 100% certain, but I believe in dominions 2 this map had a navigator's guild in the Waterdeep province. If all the special provinces are still intact from the transition to dominions 3, you may not even need to add a navigator's guild.




Still spoilering...





Actually, it's in Luskan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[RamsHead]

More spoilers...


Actually, I just checked my dom 2 version and there are several nav guilds. One in Calimport, one in Baulder's Gate, one in Waterdeep, and one in Luskan. I don't remember where these provinces are off the top of my head, but they may already be placed in good position.

[Evilhomer]

Regarding starting positions:

Is there anything wrong with placing 16 (2 water) fixed starting position (evenly spaced and all atleast decent)?

Yes we would know from start where the other starts are but not what nation, and more importantly, this will give all atleast a fair startingposition.

[Tyrant]

In the game i played Edi the mapmaker started in the western isles. Despite playing Vanheim, he thought it was a bad start spot, but i don't really know why. Seems to me that starting in the middle of the map will be tough.

[Shovah32]

CB:no(already made pretender)
WH:either
Graphs:YES oh god please yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[WSzaboPeter]

I forgot to vote for graphs and I vote NO! Thanks a lot.

[Hellboy]

So, looking at the posts, it looks like if we're going to have a blitz, it'll be Sunday afternoon. So, I'll propose Sunday 2pm EST (GMT - 5).

If it doesn't work out, that's ok, but with or without blitz, I would love to see move through these early turns quickly.

[Hellboy]

So, based on what I've seen so far, I think we're narrowing in on our settings, and I would suggest the following:

Graphs: Off
Victory Conditions: 40-51% of total province count (w/ expectation that consensus on game end will happen before reaching that point)
Magic Site Freq: 60 - I haven't heard much comment on this one, but in absence of debate, I'd go w/ this value.


PLEASE NOTE: The server is now tested, we are on track for starting tomorrow evening. If for any reason you do not expect to be able to play 1 turn/day early turns, 1 turn /2 days later turns, please pull out now. If, for example, you have great heartache w/ the proposed game settings, now is the time to withdraw. I really, really don't want to see anyone disappearing or going AI on something like turn 3.

[Hellboy]

Evilhomer said:
Is there anything wrong with placing 16 (2 water) fixed starting position (evenly spaced and all atleast decent)?

Yes we would know from start where the other starts are but not what nation, and more importantly, this will give all atleast a fair starting position.


True, but imo it would also be a pretty big advantage for those that go for a SC pretender that is available turn 1. Or any other rush based strategy, where you want to go for the early player knockouts.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Hellboy]

FrankTrollman said:
...

It seems we have a different definition of "advantage".

Rush positions are best on small maps (10 provinces per player), and get increasingly bad on medium (15 provinces per player), or large maps (20 provinces per player).

Faerun has 424 provinces on it. At 16 players, that's still over 26 provinces per player. That's titanic. That's... very bad news for a rush position.

Even if we threw in 4 more players, it would still qualify as a map larger than "large" for the number of participants. I don't think throwing a bone to the rush positions is all that weird under the circumstances.

And I'm playing New Faith Ermor. It's not like a good showing by Helheim in the early game particularly favors me. It looks like from what we have we could throw in all the alternates, and make all the start locations fixed and known, and rush powers would still be crawling uphill on their tongue.

Heck, it's even high magic sites, so the bulge that a capitol has over a random neutral province is pretty small. The whole "I took over another country" thing isn't even all that big a deal...

-Frank



Count on Frank to get to the point...

Well, right now my knowledge of map editing is very limited, all I know how to do is #nostart, and #specstart, I really don't want to start in precisely fixed positions, and it seems like a pain to put in #nostarts everywhere but the 16 we actually want to use.

I'll look into it further tomorrow morning, and see if there's something more direct we can do.

BTW, I don't have much experience in playing w/ magic site frequency: if 60 makes many provinces just as good as capitals, that would be a good reason to lower it. I know from playing SP that 45 still leaves plenty of sites, but nonetheless I was thinking it'd be fun to have more than average # of sites. OTOH, simply having the huge map, w/ its special provinces maybe means the gem supply will be far more than adequate right off the bat.

[Hellboy]

FrankTrollman said:
Faerun has 424 provinces on it. At 16 players, that's still over 26 provinces per player. That's titanic. That's... very bad news for a rush position.


Actually, thinking more about it, isn't it the case that if you know precisely where all your neighbors are, that the # of provinces/player is irrelevant? Instead, I would think that the limiting factor would be the distance between capitals. At least if the rusher has an SC Pretender, I would think that if he is 4 provinces away, then he could arrive at your capital on turn 5 (or sooner, utilizing flying). Am I naive to look at in this fashion?

[Meglobob]

60 for magic sites for gems sounds great to me.

I have played several MP with 50 and I still have never had enough gems to do all I want.

Also 60 will make the game alot more fun.

[Sandman]

Magic sites 60 sounds a bit high for my taste. It will probably tip the balance in favour of nations with many paths and hinder those who rely on one or two. Without graphs, racking up gems will be even easier.

50 is plenty for a large, rich map like Faerun.

[Dedas]

I agree that 60 is too high. 50 sounds more reasonable.

[Hellboy]

Server is up, and you can load your pretenders.

Server info:
IP: 24.22.140.14 Port: 1024

Edit:
There is still time to change the game settings, and map suggestions are also still welcome, as I am working on that today.

[Teraswaerto]

We will use Worthy Heroes, right?

[Amhazair]

Do we all have to install that mod, or is it just the server that matters?

[Hellboy]

Teraswaerto said:
We will use Worthy Heroes, right?


Yes.


Amhazair said:
Do we all have to install that mod, or is it just the server that matters?


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will need to install the mod. Be sure to use version 1.6, the link is on the initial post.

[Evilhomer]

you are indeed correct

[Foodstamp]

Kailasa Pretender uploaded.

PS: don't click "Start Game" when you upload!

[Amhazair]

Terrel said:

Amhazair said:
Do we all have to install that mod, or is it just the server that matters?


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you will need to install the mod. Be sure to use version 1.6, the link is on the initial post.



Okey, on my way there. How will it affect other games (present and future), where I don't want to use the mod, though?

[WSzaboPeter]

Pretender uploaded, my command line options:

D:\dominions3\dom3.exe -C --ipadr 24.22.140.14 --port 1024 --nocredits --nonationsel

[Hellboy]

Amhazair said:
Okey, on my way there. How will it affect other games (present and future), where I don't want to use the mod, though?

iirc, under Dom2 the mod would load automatically when you chose a game that was started w/ the mod, i'm not sure how that's working now w/ Dom3. Worst case, you'll need to turn the mod on or off w/ your preferences. Back in the Dom2 days the one error that many players made is setting up their pretender under the wrong mod, but afaik this should not be an issue for us, since Worthy Heroes should have no effect on pretenders.

[Hellboy]

I've nearly finished up the map (still need to touch up some neighbors), but what I ended up doing is pretty much going w/ Edi's special locations, while removing forts and specific starts. The latest version of the map is attached, and I'll change that when I come up w/ the final version tonight.

Better than half the pretenders are uploaded, we are now waiting on:

2. Agartha - Tyrant
3. Arcoscephale - Darrel
11. Niefleheim - Xox
13. Pangaea - Dedas
14. Sauromatia - imororg
16. Yomi - Izzyz

[Evilhomer]

I ended back with R'lyeh (the original plan), pretender uploaded.

[Hellboy]

For whoever is reading this this evening, I'd like a sanity check on the following two edits to the Faerun map. I've been looking at this yesterday, and I've been bothered by the relatively large number of sea provinces completely closed off by land (mostly in the NE), therefore:

1) I'd like to connect all sea provinces to the nearest (or most sensible) body of water. Usually this will follow along a river line visible on the map.

2) Also, I'd like to connect province 106 and 137. This will connect the two major sets of sea provinces in the game, which I think will make the interaction between the two water players more interesting (and between water and land players, for that matter).

If anyone sees any reason not to make these two edits, let me know now!

[Sir_Dr_D]

Yeah sounds like a good idea. I say go for it. You can connect some of the sea provinces, but leave others closed off. Lakes in the middle of land not connected to anything can have interesting chalenges with them as well.

[Sandman]

I can understand the rationale for linking up the sea provinces, but bear in mind that the sea nations already have very high mobility on this map. I'd leave at least some provinces as lakes.

[Meglobob]

As a water nation, I say yea...YEA.

[Dedas]

As a non water nation, I say... stay away from my swimming lakes you icky abominations of nature! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Tyrant]

Hmm, i don't like that idea one little bit, water nations already have a big advantage, besides, what's wrong with multiple seas?

[Xox]

Yeah, the seas and lakes should be seperate, makes for interesting strategy and some possibility of non water nations having some lakes or bits of ocean.

Also in maps with more than one ocean it allows for the water nations to sometimes have separate areas and not neccesarilty be in close ocmpetition in the begginning for the same set of provinces.

[Hellboy]

Sorry I've been wanting to get this thing on the road since last night, but I've been locked out of the forum all day today (has anyone else seen this bizarre behaviour? - the web page just shows a bunch of sql errors...)

Anyhow, we've been waiting for more than a day now on:

Sauromatia - imororg


I'll PM him just after writing this post, but if we don't hear back from him before tonight is out, I'll be happy to fill w/ someone out of our reserve list (or just about any player who can get his turns in, for that matter).

Come hell or high water I would really like to see this show on the road by tomorrow morning, PST.

- Terrel

[Evilhomer]

Considering how horribly bad the water nations are at going above ground in EA it would just destroy a water nation to end up in a small section of the water

[llamabeast]

I got the crazy forum behaviour yesterday as well, I think it was dead.

[mivayan]

I'd like to sub for sauromania if none of the other subs are immediately available.

[Hellboy]

mivayan said:
I'd like to sub for sauromania if none of the other subs are immediately available.



Thanks for offering, but Reay's PM arrived earlier than your message was posted.

Reay is now the official 16th player, and we'll get started as soon as he uploads

[mivayan]

Alright.

[Hellboy]

Sounds like there's more against water connectivity than for (you cowards!), so I won't do that this time around.

Still waiting to hear from Reay...

[Meglobob]

Terrel said:
Sounds like there's more against water connectivity than for (you cowards!), so I won't do that this time around.

Still waiting to hear from Reay...



I believe Reay is a Australian player, so you after account for the huge time difference.

[Reay]

Yeah I'm here and will upload my pretender ASAP in the next few hours. Thanks for waiting.

[Reay]

I apologise to all. I will not be able to upload a pretender today so I guess mivayan or any of the subs can take over my spot.

Unexpected events happen in real life too ;(.

[Tyrant]

grumble, i say start w/15

[Sandman]

Is this game still on the go?

[imororg]

I'm sorry I couldn't post here before.
May I still participate in the game? If I can't, I'm sorry for delaying the start of the game...

[Hellboy]

imororg said:
I'm sorry I couldn't post here before.
May I still participate in the game? If I can't, I'm sorry for delaying the start of the game...

If you can get your turns in once/day going forward, yes. And if you agree to that, please upload your pretender ASAP, and post here to tell us you are in the process of doing so.

- Terrel

[imororg]

Pretender uploaded

[Hellboy]

imororg said:
Pretender uploaded


Awesome! I'll be getting the game started momentarily.

[Hellboy]

The game is started!

I haven't heard too much interest in blitzing, so I assume that's impossible. Nonetheless it would be great if we could crank through some of these early turns.

On the downside, this delay plus the Shrapnel outage may mean we have lost touch with a player or two that uploaded early. I'll pay pretty close attention, and don't be offended if I PM you as a 'laggard', I just want to make sure we still have everyone on board.

Also, I'll change the attachment on the initial post to the actual Faerun map we started with.

Good luck everyone!

[Hellboy]

Damn, forgot to add the victory condition based on province count. Well, in my mind that was nicety, and not essential, so unless there's strenuous objection, I won't restart on that.

[Foodstamp]

Nagot gik fel!

Bad packet from server when trying to download the map image. I have the worthy heroes mod installed/enabled and the map in my map directory.

[Amhazair]

I managed to get my first turn in just fine. (I was the first one to play, let's see if I manage to be the last one too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[Foodstamp]

Problem fixed, when I downloaded the map from the link, I chose the url instead of clicking the picture, which ended up being an older version of the map. Turn complete! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sandman]

Did my turn. My starting position is... uh, let's call it defensively sound.

[Izzyz]

I'm uploaded, too. I'll make myself available Sunday after 2:00PM PST for a blitz.

[Izzyz]

I should have said my first turn is uploaded.

[Shovah32]

Can anyone post the map files i need as .zip files? My computer dosnt like .rar files.

[Hellboy]

Shovah32 said:
Can anyone post the map files i need as .zip files? My computer dosnt like .rar files.



Zip is attached on this post. Note that you actually only "need" Faerun_large.tga in your maps folder, the Faerun_large_NoForts.map file will be ignored, as it gets this data from the server (but its there for your convenience).

Edit: Note the attached zip is rather large, so you probably only want to download off this if you need the .tga in zip format.

[Hellboy]

We're almost there on hosting our first turn, waiting on:

2. Agartha - Tyrant
8. Lanka - Shovah32
12. Pangaea - Dedas

[Tyrant]

I'm at work, i'll fire off about 6pm PST when i get home.

[Dedas]

Sorry, I'm located in Sweden and it is in the middle of the night right now. I will do my turn first time in the morning (just a few hours).

[Hellboy]

I certainly don't mean to be rousting anyone out of bed! But it looks like we're all on board, and haven't lost anyone in the course of this slow start - thats the main point.

[Foodstamp]

Terrel runs a tight ship!

[Hellboy]

Foodstamp said:
Terrel runs a tight ship!

I don't mean to be a prig, but it just amazes me that few of these games without a couple of players disappearing. Anyhow, looks like we've got everyone on board, so thats cool.

[Foodstamp]

Oh no, I was not insinuating that. I like a proactive host http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[WSzaboPeter]

It's turn 2!
God of R'lyeh bites the dust in the first turn. Now that was fast indeed.

[Dedas]

I want all the nasty details of the overconfident God of R'lyeh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Amhazair]

Hehe, indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Meglobob]

Amhazair said:
Hehe, indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



I wish you would read your PM's now and again, Amhazair.

[Hellboy]

Don't get confused guys, just changed my screen name to "Hellboy" - I expect this new name to intimidate all of you into easy submission.

[Amhazair]

I'll just interpret it as if I just gained a fanclub. Go Helheim!

[Hellboy]

Amhazair said:
I'll just interpret it as if I just gained a fanclub. Go Helheim!

Nice try, but Abysia (my other favorite nation after TC) would be a better match.

[Hellboy]

Just waiting on Izzyz/Yomi...

[Izzyz]

Sorry for the delay. My first turn came back with the error "Orders not processed, CD Key error." I had loaded the game on my girlfriend's computer after being forced out of my house due to fumigation. I downloaded turn one on her computer, but was careful not to send my turn in from there. My first turn was only sent in from my home machine. Will I still be able to get turns processed? I will be home in 15 minutes and will submit a turn promptly.

Problem solved.

[Izzyz]

Post deleted by Izzyz

[Meglobob]

I have got the scales bug. Has anyone else? I believe its the Faerun map that is the cause. I ran a test game on the Faerun map and got exactly the same bug. I then ran a test game on the silent seas map and no problems. This is the first time I have ever had the scales bug and I think its entirely to do with using/playing on the Faerun map.

This bug really spoils my entire strategy. I will give it a few turns but if it persists I will abandon the game. Those with really bad scales will benefit hugely from this bug, well those who took order 3 prod 3 will be hugely disavantaged.

Anyone know a cure?

[Teraswaerto]

*edited*

[Hellboy]

Meglobob said:
I have got the scales bug. Has anyone else? I believe its the Faerun map that is the cause. I ran a test game on the Faerun map and got exactly the same bug. I then ran a test game on the silent seas map and no problems. This is the first time I have ever had the scales bug and I think its entirely to do with using/playing on the Faerun map.

This bug really spoils my entire strategy. I will give it a few turns but if it persists I will abandon the game. Those with really bad scales will benefit hugely from this bug, well those who took order 3 prod 3 will be hugely disavantaged.

Anyone know a cure?



Is this "scales bug" described precisely somewhere? Or would you care to do it here?

It would not be shocking to discover a Faerun specific bug, since this map was never explicitly converted to Dom3 by the creator, and I have limited map editing expertise. If there is a Faerun specific bug I certainly wonder if Hadrian's game encountered this (and I'll ask there). Of course the upside is that this may have a cure or workaround - but that would only take effect if we restarted.

Unfortunately I'm just an hour or so away from leaving for 3 days (see my next post), so I won't be around to resolve this until the 16th. This certainly sounds serious. If Meglobob is the only one affected, then we might consider letting him go AI, and soldiering on (losing one player this early is acceptable, although Meglobob has been one of our most active, and I would certainly hate to lose him).

If OTOH 3 or 4 players are being affected by a serious bug, then we have a major problem on our hands. For me at least, I really need to see an exact description of the bug and I need to know who's affected by it, before I can make any kind of decisions.

[Hellboy]

OK, as I mentioned before starting the game, I'm going on a trip for the next 3 days. I've set the game to 72hr QH, but I'll try to get a turn in on the evening of the 15th (no guarantees).

W/r to Meglobob's scale bug, I would suggest that everyone submit their next turn anyhow, but the more information we can get out on this thread while I'm gone, the better. I especially want to know how many players are affected by it.

- Hellboy

[Teraswaerto]

I am not affected. I am also in Hadrian's game and didn't have it there either.

It is an old bug, from Dom2 at least, maybe even Dom1. It happens on other maps too.

Restarting because of it would be IMO crazy, since it would make a lot of people unhappy, and I don't think there is anything you can do to ensure it wont hit someone again.

*edit*
I forgot to describe it... It gives you wrong scales initially, simple as that. If you took great scales, it hurts. If you took bad scales, it helps. I don't know the specifics exactly, but I'm pretty sure the scales will revert to their correct state with time.

[Hellboy]

Teraswaerto said:
*edit*
I forgot to describe it... It gives you wrong scales initially, simple as that. If you took great scales, it hurts. If you took bad scales, it helps. I don't know the specifics exactly, but I'm pretty sure the scales will revert to their correct state with time.

That is encouraging to me - not as bad as I feared (just by the name it sounded more permanent).


I am not affected. I am also in Hadrian's game and didn't have it there either.

It is an old bug, from Dom2 at least, maybe even Dom1. It happens on other maps too.

Restarting because of it would be IMO crazy, since it would make a lot of people unhappy, and I don't think there is anything you can do to ensure it wont hit someone again.

Well, high among those unhappy ones, it certainly would make me unhappy!

One positive thing out of this, it sounds to me that Meglobob has a setup where this bug is repeatable. That means that there is a very good chance of identifying exactly what circumstances invoke this bug, and thus finding a workaround for it, without even doing any coding. If the devs take notice, this might also be a good clue for actually fixing the bug.

Of course, none of that helps Meglobob in this game. Meglo, were you aware that the condition is non-permanent? Also, I don't mean to offend, but I would suggest that lousy (but temporary) scales are a screw job that is perhaps less severe than losing your lab turn 1, or some of the awful start positions that are possible...

Anyhow, the main thing I am still interested in knowing is whether any other players are affected by this bug.

[Amhazair]

My scales are perfectly normal.

[Tyrant]

My scales are mixed, some good , some bad, and i have no issue.

[Meglobob]

Teraswaerto said:
I am not affected. I am also in Hadrian's game and didn't have it there either.

It is an old bug, from Dom2 at least, maybe even Dom1. It happens on other maps too.

Restarting because of it would be IMO crazy, since it would make a lot of people unhappy, and I don't think there is anything you can do to ensure it wont hit someone again.

*edit*
I forgot to describe it... It gives you wrong scales initially, simple as that. If you took great scales, it hurts. If you took bad scales, it helps. I don't know the specifics exactly, but I'm pretty sure the scales will revert to their correct state with time.



I agree 100% with what Teraswaerto says above.

The scales bug has had the following effect on me:-

I took order-3, growth-3, magic-1. The bug hit this turn and for some mad reason just leaves you with whatever magic/drain scale you had. So now I have magic-1. So 240 design points down the drain. Not so bad if it hits later on but a serious setback this early.

I have heard other players talk about it before and it seems, slowly over a period of time to correct itself. I will give it 1/2 a dozen turns or so and see what happens.

Just did another test with Atlantis on Faerun map and 20 turns in, had still not got the bug. So it seems just very, very random. AFAIK it has effected people playing Faerun/cradle of dominion maps.

Will do other tests when I have a chance and start a main thread in the forum and see if anyone knows more.

[Hellboy]

Tyrant said:
My scales are mixed, some good , some bad, and i have no issue.

You recognize, Tyrant, that you're turn 1 scales should be 100% deterministic, being exactly as you specified in your pretender setup? If you chose poor scales in your pretender setup, you could be experiencing the bug, and that would actually be a good thing for your initial position.

[Tyrant]

I guess i was not clear. My scales are mixed by design and they are manifesting as they shoud be, both the good and the bad.

[Shovah32]

Im currently being a little effected, having lower levels in the positive scales i picked but still being left with the negative misfortune. I attribute these scales to my currently low dominion level.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Meglobob]

Shovah32 said:
Im currently being a little effected, having lower levels in the positive scales i picked but still being left with the negative misfortune. I attribute these scales to my currently low dominion level.



I am really just talking about capital only scales, not surrounding provinces. Your capital only scales should only be exactly what you set them up as, both good and bad (the only exception, random events).

[Hellboy]

wow, we're just waiting on four players now. if we go much faster, i'll get in another turn before i leave (unlikely, but possible!)

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Xox]

I am aware of the scale bug and I am NOT experiencing it in this game. I honestly don't think faerun is the specific causes for it.

I always thought once you got it, it slowly fixed itself. But, it does sucketh most greviously to lose all that cash, early in the game. I don't remember it affecting growth, but maybe it does.

But as someone mentioned I look at it like the other randoms like losing your temple, lab or getting capitol unrest early in the game,

[Meglobob]

To Frank:-

It's definately the scales bug, you do not go from order-3, growth-3 and magic-1 to just magic-1. I have 4 candles in my capial btw.

In my 1st test run with Atlantis on Faerun, I had order-3, prod-3, drain-2. When the bug hit (early on, like now), the scales went to drain-2.

Its very strange the only 2 times I have had it is on the Faerun map.

I believe Cainehill had it on the cradle of dominion map. So its not just the Faerun map.

Obviously, as its been around since Dom1, looks like its a bug you just after live with, sadly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Foodstamp]

In a game this size, I don't think it is going to have a significant impact in the long run if your scales revert back to normal in a few turns.

[imororg]

I can't connect to the server, anyone else is having the same problem?

[Dedas]

Yes, I have too.

[Xox]

no connection.

[Tyrant]

Hellboy is outta town, he'll be back tomarrow.

[Hellboy]

Xox said:
no connection.


I'm back, and I connected ok (which of course proves nothing), is anyone still unable to connect now?

[Xox]

connecting now

[Hellboy]

Turn 7 is up, I'm resetting hosting interval to 28hr QH.

[Meglobob]

No connection.

[Dedas]

It works for me now.

[Evilhomer]

can't connect

[Shovah32]

I cant connect either.

[Hellboy]

Evilhomer said:
can't connect

Server is back up (forgot to turn off auto update - oops!)

[Hellboy]

Turn 8 is up (sorry, I had set the hosting interval, w/o turning on QH - fixed now).

[Hellboy]

Waiting on Xox/Niefelheim - any chance we'll see it host this evening?

[Hellboy]

Sounds like Xox is having some technical difficulties, I've reset the host interval to give him time to get this straightened out (which will hopefully happen soon).

[Hellboy]

For future issues which arise, you can contact me by email at:

kirkpp at yahoo dot com

Not sure what's going on w/ Xox, but I don't want to see this hang up for long, we could be looking for a sub, or I may set to AI...

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Sir_Dr_D]

For now you could email him his turn. Send the Nieflheim.trn file that is in the directory for the game to him. He can then copy the file into 'the_middle_way' folder on his side, play his turn, and then send the Nieflheim.2h file back to you.

[Hellboy]

FrankTrollman said:
Please don't set him to AI. This game is going to last for months, and the power void in the region of Niefelheim would have far ranging and frustrating implications.

-Frank

Sure, makes sense to me. I don't imagine it will be too hard to find a sub, this early on.

[Hellboy]

Darrel said:
For now you could email him his turn. Send the Nieflheim.trn file that is in the directory for the game to him. He can then copy the file into 'the_middle_way' folder on his side, play his turn, and then send the Nieflheim.2h file back to you.

I would be happy to do that, if it makes the difference, but I suspect that if I could email him his turn, then he would be able to play TCP/IP.

I think all he needs is a borrowed computer, or even access to an internet cafe (assuming the cafe will allow him to install the dom3 client, and i think some of them would).

Right now all I have is one PM relayed by another player, so I'm waiting to get some kind of ETA on when the problem will get fixed.

[Hellboy]

OK, still no direct contact from Xox, and lacking any specific ETA from him, I would guess that he will eventually show up again, but on anywhere from a 1 - 5 day timeframe. On this basis I see the 2 most practical options as:

1) Reset the QH interval tonight, and allow Xox's position to stale once or twice, before seeking a substitute. I think it's actually been 2 days since he's played a turn, so in effect, this will give him 4 days before the 2d stale (or we could reset to 48hr QH, which would mean 6 days).
The downside of this option is that if we end up resorting to substitution anyhow, then its that much harder to find someone to take the position over. The upside is that it maximizes the chance that Xox shows up, while not bringing the game to a screeching halt while we wait for Xox to arrive.

2) Give Xox until 9am PST (GMT -8) tomorrow to show up. At that point, I would look for a substitute. We would need a substitute w/ some history on this board (preferably someone that's hosted a game), because I would have to give them the master PW in order for him to be able to play.

Anyone care to vote on these, or offer other alternatives?

[Teraswaerto]

I'd vote 1

I must also say that I don't like the idea of giving out the master password.

[Hellboy]

Teraswaerto said:
I must also say that I don't like the idea of giving out the master password.

If Xox is still unavailable 2 days from now, then I think it'll come down to setting the position to AI, or giving the master password to the substitute player. This sure makes it clear why Velusion requires player PWs in his games.

[Dedas]

Wasn't this game supposed to move at a much greater pace? Now it is a stand still. Could the host please do something?

[Hellboy]

Dedas said:
Wasn't this game supposed to move at a much greater pace? Now it is a stand still. Could the host please do something?

Have you read any of the past 5 posts??

[Amhazair]

I don't mind giving Xox a bit more time to sort out his technical problems (as per option 1) either.

I'm just enough in control of my addiction to refrain from chewing my keyboard because of the delay, so all is under control here for now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Foodstamp]

Dedas said:
Wasn't this game supposed to move at a much greater pace? Now it is a stand still. Could the host please do something?



This is going to be a very long game no matter how fast the turns move. Have a little patience.

[Hellboy]

I have now assigned a new player to Niefelheim, johnarryn. John is hosting two games, and I've seen a lot of his posts where he's shown a concern for fairness for the players and for keeping a game moving along. Therefore I think he's trustworthy enough to use (and not abuse) the master password.

I'm looking forward to getting this game moving again, so thanks John for jumping in!

[Hellboy]

Turn #9 is up - thanks, John!

[Hellboy]

Turn 10 is up.

Don't know if anyone noticed, but server was down briefly. Back up now.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I had to do a system resotre on my computer, and am trying to reinstall everything. I am getting a page can not be displayed error when I try to download the faerun map. Can some one email it to me ddumontier@hotmail.com.

I beleive I have plenty of time to get the next turn in (I will be back from work in about 8 hours from the time of this post. ) But if not can you delay the turn timer slightly . It won't need to be delayed for more then a few hours.

What is the turn timer at? Without the map I cannot check.

I am playing as acro.

[Hellboy]

Darrel said:
I had to do a system resotre on my computer, and am trying to reinstall everything. I am getting a page can not be displayed error when I try to download the faerun map. Can some one email it to me ddumontier@hotmail.com.

I beleive I have plenty of time to get the next turn in (I will be back from work in about 8 hours from the time of this post. ) But if not can you delay the turn timer slightly . It won't need to be delayed for more then a few hours.

What is the turn timer at? Without the map I cannot check.

I am playing as acro.



I'm sending the file now, in zip format. Its a large attachment (14.8mb), so your email might choke. If it does, I also attached the file to one of the posts in this thread (where someone requested it in zip format), so you might download it more easily there.

There are 24hrs to host, so you should be fine (but of course, playing your turn earlier is always appreciated! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[Hellboy]

Sorry, I was not able to send the email after all (my email has a limit of 10mb attachments). You'll have to download the zip file off the attachment from the post (which was somewhere in the middle of the thread).

[Sir_Dr_D]

I was able to download the map no problem now. And I got my turn in. Now only one more player needs to do their turn.I think Abyssia.

[Xox]

Well I am back and I see you reassigned my position.

Of all the delays i have had in these games it seems quite unreasonable to have replaced me so quickly. Other games i have been in have been delayed WEEKS to accomidate others people's personal schedules or technical difficulties. This is the first time I have had to ask for such a delay for myself.

I see Hellboy even mentioned givng me the two days I needed and then he instead replaces me the same day.

I do want to say I really do appreciate those of you who spoke up in favor of waiting for me.

[Hellboy]

Xox said:
Well I am back and I see you reassigned my position.

Of all the delays i have had in these games it seems quite unreasonable to have replaced me so quickly. Other games i have been in have been delayed WEEKS to accomidate others people's personal schedules or technical difficulties. This is the first time I have had to ask for such a delay for myself.

I see Hellboy even mentioned givng me the two days I needed and then he instead replaces me the same day.

I do want to say I really do appreciate those of you who spoke up in favor of waiting for me.

Well, sorry about how that all went down, Xox. In all honesty, your previous experience with other games has no relevance here. What does have relevance is the game protocol that I proposed and the players' reasonable expectations, given the description of the game I proposed (and yes, this includes your expectations).

The one thing I regret is that I did not state my expectations in the case where a player loses access to the server. In this case, in my opinion, the courteous thing to do is to contact the game host with two pieces of information: ETA on resolution of the problem and the player password. Yes, if your computer is broken this will difficult, but I think not that difficult (whether by internet cafe, friend's computer or work computer, all you had to do was get web access and get on the forum for 5 minutes, and send a PM, or an email, to me).

I should have written this expectation when I proposed the game, and for that lack, I apologize. If it helps to make this more palatable, when you talk about all the delays you have experienced in other games, well, it is for exactly that reason that I impose the policies that you may view as draconian.

Please also note that the last time you played a turn was sometime before the Sat am host. The one indirect and vague communication I got from you came on Saturday evening, and it was a request for a delay, and arrived via PM from another player. It included no information whatsoever as to how long of a delay you wanted, or when you might possibly come back. I held that delay through to Monday morning, when I decided (based on still having no direct contact from you, and no ETA on resolution of the problem), that the game would be best served by reassignment of the position.

Without communication from you, and most especially no idea of when you might return, I simply don't see how the game could've been well served by an arbitrarily long delay. Yes, I could've allowed your position to stale multiple times, but then reassignment would've been more difficult, and the position might have been crippled by the time I decided to reassign.

Again, I do apologize for not having made this policy clear up front. That much is definitely my bad. I hope this doesn't leave too much of a sour taste in your mouth, and that any future encounters we have on this forum are not tainted by this experience.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Xox]

I have to say it does indeed leave a bad impression for me.

I did communicate my situation and request. I am pretty surprised you needed a specific communication directly from me. I have seen it done through another player like I did many times in other cases in other games.

I was unable to directly communicate in person or log into the forums anyways, so.... What a strange requirement. No word about that in any previous posts. And why was that neccesary?

You say my specific experience in other games has no relevance here, but it does! I would expect it too, unless you state differently, which you admit you did not.

I also expect in this long of a game this sort of thing will happen again. My guess, you will handle it differently and better. If not, I think you will end up with no players.

I want to back off a bit though and say I have the utmost appreciation for anyone who hosts. Thanks for hosting.

I just don't understand why in the one time I have a need for a delay on my behalf and communicated this you booted me faster than i have ever seen anyone booted from any of these games.

[Evilhomer]

In my experience of previous games, going away for a week+ without giving any clue when the problem will be resolved is enough reason to get you replaced.

I do not belive the host acted incorrectly in my opinion.

[Xox]

People, please do read, I did send word.

My computer broke, and I sent word via another player to the host and the host is and was aware of this.

I did communicate, I did, I did!!!!

Also, my computer broke Friday evening, My turn was in for the saturday am host as noted. This is Wednesday, It was not a week. Lastly my ETA back was not vague. it is, was, and actually happened to be, today, Wednesday.


I have been replaced, oh well. No big deal. I just thought it was odd, too fast, and unfair.

But I do not like being miscast as a flake on this, And all the events about this misrepresented. I did communicate all the information needed, and got back in the estimated time. Sorry if I did not put a tps cover sheet on my request for a delay. I did not get that memo.

Sheesh

[Hellboy]

Xox said:
People, please do read, I did send word.

Yes, I understand this, and I acknowledged this fact previously.


But I do not like being miscast as a flake on this, And all the events about this misrepresented.
...

Please understand that I in no way intend to cast you as a "flake". This whole circumstance is my fault in that I did not announce this policy in advance. I do expect that if your computer had not broke down, you would have been an excellent player and contributor to the game throughout the life of the game. In my mind, this is simply an unfortunate misunderstanding, most of which is my own fault.
All that said, I stand by the policy (which is now stated explicitly in the initial post). It is to your cost that I did not do so previously, and I am sorry about that.

[Sandman]

Sorry for the stale, I probably should have said something. Mind you, there's a certain dignity playing without begging for more time.

[Hellboy]

Sandman said:
Sorry for the stale, I probably should have said something. Mind you, there's a certain dignity playing without begging for more time.

And indeed, your dignity abounds, Sandman! But just so you know, had you asked for an extension, I would've given it (given we just hosted this morning, it appears you wouldn't have needed much of one).

[Foodstamp]

Enough is enough. Xox did not handle his situation in a bad way. It is unfortunate that Xox was expelled from the game, but he did everything in his power to notify the host.

I feel like the host handled the situation well in giving him time and replacing him once the other players got restless.

There is no indignity in telling a host your computer is fried and you would like a bit of time to resolve the problem.

Neither party acted badly, lets move on.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Sandman]

Would Abysia be right in thinking that Lanka is crushing both Agartha *and* Ermor? Our data about the war is sadly lacking, despite being close to the action.

Meanwhile, R'lyeh and Niefelheim are engaged in a joint invasion of Arcoscephale. We've not seen any battles yet, but Arco's survival seems doubtful.

[Shovah32]

Abysia would be wrong.

[Evilhomer]

Im not at war with arco really, just travelling to greener pastures.

[johnarryn]

I wouldn't really call our invasion "joint." I had no idea Rl'yeh planned to attack the Arcos... I wouldn't even really call it an invasion, for that matter. More "defensive maneuvers conducted in enemy territory." I really see the Arcos as the aggressors here.

[Amhazair]

johnarryn said:
"defensive maneuvers conducted in enemy territory."



I like this one, I must remember it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[johnarryn]

Haha, thanks. It was meant to be silly.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Sandman]

Watch out for the elephants.

[Shovah32]

It was more "hit agartha before they hit me because of what frank told me" than "defend against the agarthans".

[Hellboy]

Looks like WSzaboPeter (playing Mictlan) is MIA - anyone heard anything from him in any other games?

EDIT:

Never mind, looks like he just took his turn.

[Amhazair]

Shovah32 said:
because of what frank told me



So Frank is already pulling the strings huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shovah32]

lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I already had plans to hit agartha and moved my army towards him. I offered frank peace but apparently agartha had given him a better offer to fight me and, as it would take too long and be too risky to recall my main army i proceeded with the foolish offensive.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Tyrant]

Not use irony, smash with rokz! Burn! Smash more!

[Sir_Dr_D]

A message to Nieflhiem

Acro demands your immediate surrender. You are to take your troops and leave all lands you wrongfully invaded.

Do that or be destroyed!

[johnarryn]

A message to Arcoscephale:

HAHAHAHAHA! You humans have good senses of humor.

- Niefelheim.

[Shovah32]

EA arco demanding surrender from niefelheim makes shovah laugh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have no idea how strong arco is currently but ive seen niefelheims armies and i know EA niefelheim is one of the big(no pun intended) players.

[Sandman]

Arco's home province has fallen, though Arco cleverly evacuated their remaining mages. They'll be able to keep the struggle going for a while yet.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Meglobob]

FrankTrollman said:
Did Atlantis suddenly change players, or did Meglobob break a NAP without saying anything?

-Frank



No and no Frank.

To quote EXACTLY the message we give you sometime ago, Atlantis promised Ermor, "a considerable period of peace", the considerable period of peace turned out to be 23 months, nearly 2 yrs, so you can't complain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

I was surprised you never got me to agree a 3 turn warning NAP or such but there you go. On such small mistakes empires rise and fall. Both my other neighbours Helheim and Yomi made sure they had a 3 turn warning non-aggression pact. Which of course Atlantis will honour.

[Sandman]

The only player left to take their turn is R'lyeh, but I'm sure that they submitted their turn earlier. Strange...

[Hellboy]

Sandman said:
The only player left to take their turn is R'lyeh, but I'm sure that they submitted their turn earlier. Strange...

I'll postpone hosting, until this evening. I know I saw Evilhomer connected to the server, although I was thinking that he did not submit (it can be hard to tell with the dark nation icons). Anyhow, computer glitch or not, it seems likely that he had worked out his turn and at least intended to submit.

I'm setting it to host 14hrs from now, and then reset to 28hr QH after Evilhomer shows up, or 14hrs from now, whichever happens sooner.

[Evilhomer]

No i was just in checkning how thing was going, i was a bit to busy to plan my turn at that point. Now the turn is done however (within ordinary deadline)

[Hellboy]

Evilhomer said:
No i was just in checkning how thing was going, i was a bit to busy to plan my turn at that point. Now the turn is done however (within ordinary deadline)

Well done! I didn't even have a chance to reset the server.

Thanks!

[Sandman]

Ermor sent an angry message to Abysia this turn. A pity it was intended for Atlantis.

[Evilhomer]

We all got it I think.

[Meglobob]

The kings and queens of Atlantis had a good chuckle at the Ermorian councils message.

It is not so surprising they are angry when there mighty plans of researching straight to Arcane Nexus and then using that power to enslave all of Faerun have come to dust. Yes, Ermor really was that arrogant and full of himself to tell me this.

I hope the nations of Faerun recognize the heroism and self sacrifice of the Atlantian people in ending this extreme danger to them all.

Atlantis is happy to accept a medal for exceptional bravery in the face of extreme danger. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Dedas]

Praise Atlantis! Praise the water people! Praise them for their bravery and their will to put hard against hard! Praise them for all time to come! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[johnarryn]

Frank seems to have a habit of making personal attacks on people. In the long term term I see this as being costly to him.

Honestly, I don't want this to become a "let's all pile scorn on Frank" thread, but I think it is unfortunate that he feels the need to insult other players. As i've said in other threads, please keep all indignation (righteous or otherwise) in character... it keeps the atmosphere friendlier.

[Meglobob]

FrankTrollman said:
Yes, because as we all know delineating a border, telling someone that there will be lasting peace, and making long-term trade agreements doesn't count as a peace accord unless you say the word "non-aggression pact".

-Frank



Yep, thats the keyword "non-aggression pact", remember it for the future.

As for trade deals, yes I mislead you, completely on purpose over the 2 dwarven hammers for 3 skull mentors. It was to keep you sweet well I completed the research and built my armies so I could try to beat you. It's another form of diplomacy or delaying tactics if you will.

As for the border agreement, it was more of Ermor grabs everything including sea provinces blocking my expansion and then dictates to Atlantis this is the border. It was when you where dictating this by the way that Atlantis decieded to go to war with you.

[Evilhomer]

Frank seems to throw tantrums when things don't go his way.

[Hellboy]

OK folks, time to chill out.

Frank, I know you to be a very bright guy, but you do have a talent for inciting flame wars (your screen name is very well chosen, btw.)


FrankTrollman said:
... but in the long term (as in the next game and the game after) ...




Here we are definitely violating Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy by talking about game crossover effects (and here's the link (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=474483&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=#Post474483) again, for reference)

We've covered this topic altogether too well already, so time to drop it. No more personal slurs, please!

[Hellboy]

BTW, I've been meaning to post for a couple of days now: we really cranked through those early turns - thanks everyone! It seems to me that war and chaos are breaking out all over the map - what more could a Dom3 host ask for? I guess the game is slowing down now, but that's only to be expected now that we're in the mid 20's for turns.

Good luck to all on your continuing quest for world domination (and most especially, good luck to T'ien Ch'i, of course!).

[Teraswaerto]

The druids of Marverni, after witnessing their peaceful nation come under attack from strange and terrible beings, conducted a ritual of divination.

They saw some ancient battle raging, the combatants ankle-deep in bloody mud. The battle was not the focus of the vision however, for they also saw a host of ghostly warriors looking down upon the battle. Their black horses were silent, and there was death in their eyes.

One of the darkling warriors began to ride forward, raising his spear, and the druids could see that around his neck there was a noose. After that, they saw only darkness.

Come morning, the druids tore their robes and cast aside their wits. Marverni would soon be no more.

[Hellboy]

I saw the message indicating the God of Lanka was no more, but the Lanka icon still shows on the server as not having a turn submitted. Does Shovah32 still need to submit one more turn to close out the position?

And, of course, my commiseration Shovah32. Thanks for playing it out to the bloody end.

[Tyrant]

The (evil) God of Lanka will remain in play for one last turn and it will not Qh unless he submits. I do not think we have been quick hosting that last few days anyway though.

[Hellboy]

Tyrant said:
The (evil) God of Lanka will remain in play for one last turn and it will not Qh unless he submits. I do not think we have been quick hosting that last few days anyway though.

We had one stale this morning, I think otherwise the last player has been submitting a couple hours before the forced host time.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Sir_Dr_D]

All over the land the people of Acrophale are celebrating. Months ago Nieflheim had started there invasion of Acro land. They seemed like a strong and unstopable force, that easily defeteated anything that came at them. but now ascro has struck back. A single vicotious battle against Niefle giants and shape shiftershifters left 25 of these giants dead. Included among the dead was found the prophet of Neiflehim. Almost all surviving giants that manged to retreat were on fire and had battle afflictions. And there was only 26 casualties on the Acro side.

Anyone that wants to join in Acro's party tonight is welcome.

[Meglobob]

Me and Frank talked about trading dwarven hammers for skull mentors, at NO STAGE WAS A DEAL REACHED, Frank certainly never sent me any skull mentors. So I have broke no trade deal.

There is a BIG problem with what you say and its this, I play, have played in upto 12 MP games of Dom 3, in that time I have completed dozens of trade deals.

So on the one hand we have Frank indulging in is usual charcter assasination because he is a VERY, VERY BAD LOSER and about another 20+ Dom3 players who will confirm how fair my diplomatic dealings are in Dominions. Who do you believe?

This is not the first or even the second time Frank has launched personal attacks on players in MP games.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Don't worry Meglobob. Frank is making himself look worse more then anyone else. It sounds like you were both fair and cunning at the same time to me.

[johnarryn]

Haha, you gave me a rather bloody nose there Darrel... flaming arrows is pretty good. But the war is far from over =)

[Hellboy]

As I feared we are just waiting on Shovah32, I'll PM him and see if we can get him in before QH time.

[Shovah32]

I knew i still needed to get my turn in but ive had a rather bad migraine and no access to the computer. The turn has hosted now.

[Hellboy]

Ahhh, Frank, you give me a headache. This is precisely where I did not want to go. For anyone in this game that does not enjoy reading pedantic and litigious posts, I suggest skipping this one (I only wish I could skip writing it!).

My primary intent on referencing Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy was to keep the game thread and our in-forum conduct civil - obviously we're not achieving that effect at the moment. Before I get into the details of this circumstance I want to go into a bit of background on my ideas of what's reasonable in MP gaming. Frank, I don't want to insult your intelligence (and I say again, it is evident that you are a very bright guy), but I don't know your background in gaming.

My most basic reference for behaviour in MP gaming is the old Avalon Hill board game Diplomacy. Without going into great detail, in Diplomacy the art of the backstab is everything. There are absolutely no rules enforcing any agreements, and any player that plays with integrity will be at a serious handicap. For many, many gamers this game has provide an enormous amount of fun. However, a fundamental requirement to enjoyment of this game is that all players must be ready to believe that their fellow players are good people (no matter what backstabs occurred in game), after the game is over.

Now, imo, all MP games have to one degree or another some element of Diplomacy in them. In my personal play of Dominions 3 in this community, I don't go for the backstab in the same way that I would in a Diplomacy game, but I make that choice mainly because I don't see that same attitude or approach to the game that I would find in a group of experienced (and yes, mature) group of Diplomacy players.

Should I encounter players that do lie and backstab in-game, I consider that part of the game, and just roll with it. Most importantly, I do not take that experience outside the game (into the forums or into other games).

Now, having described my approach to MP gaming and Dominions 3, I'll move on to Frank's post:


FrankTrollman said:

Here we are definitely violating Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy by talking about game crossover effects (and here's the link again, for reference)



No. That's completely absurd.

Dishonesty is, in the darkness of a single interaction, advantageous. ...



4) If you agree to a trade that requires several steps to complete or is otherwise more than simple gems or gold, you are obligated to complete the transaction once it has begun, even if you change your mind later. If something intervenes (a third party invades the province you were supposed to give away, for instance) you must make a good faith effort to come up with a mutually agreeable settlement.



So the fact that no hammers are coming my way means that Meglobob is in violation of those very hallowed rules. That's worth getting upset about. That's crossing the line between shrewd negotiations and being a tool that others need to be warned about.

-Frank

OK, Frank I get your point, however I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. Yes, Sheap's 4th rule is one case where (unlike Diplomacy) there is a specific restriction on what kind of backstabbing one may or may not do. But personally, I simply do not regard this rule as being anywhere near as important as Sheap's other rules (the one's where he emphasizes the division between games and between in-game conduct vs forum/RL conduct). Even if Meglobob did all that you accuse him of, it is not worth the damage that you are doing to the game and to your relationship with other players in this community. If I were in your shoes, I would simply let it slide. I would likely advertise the backstab to other players, but I would be careful to do so only via in-game characters and only in an in-game fashion.

Nonetheless, let's assume for the moment that Meglobob did violate Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy #4 (and please note that Meglobob does not stipulate this point). How much heartache should this really cause? My problem as game host is that enforcing this rule is problematic as it would require seeing in-game messages and transactions, and that's messy and impractical. In fairness, you are not requesting that I enforce anything, instead you are advertising broadly that Meglobob is a "pact breaker". But this behaviour is violating what I regard as the most important rules out of Sheap's Diplomacy that being Tip 1 - rules 2&3:

2) Do remember to draw a clear distinction between your in-game (role playing) persona and your out of game self. This is especially important if you are planning on lying and backstabbing.
3) Keep the wall between the game and the forums/real world. Someone can be a colossal jerk in the game without being one in reality. As long as they follow rule #2, this is perfectly fine.




Frank, your current signature is as direct a violation of these rules as I can imagine. I suggest you change that ASAP.

Meglobob, the text you included in all caps regarding banning Frank is likewise a direct violation these rules. It is an escalation and makes matters worse, please refrain from such posts in the future.

Now moving on to the specific question of whether Meglobob did or did not violate Sheaps Tip 2, Rule 4, as I read that rule, if either Meglobob or Frank shipped some amount of resource (gold, gems or items) to the other player, then that rule is in effect, and the other player is obligated to keep the trade. I can offer the two of you my assistance in resolving this question peacably, but if we are going to continue to debate the question, I strongly prefer to take the discussion out of this thread (ideally, I would like to do it an 3-way email, both of you can email or PM me your email address, if we need to get that discussion going).

OK, can we now cease and desist this conversation (in-thread, at least)?

- Hellboy

[Hellboy]

Shovah32 said:
I knew i still needed to get my turn in but ive had a rather bad migraine and no access to the computer. The turn has hosted now.

Thanks!

[FrankTrollman]

Post deleted by Mindi

[Shovah32]

The way i see it is: Sheaps rules of diplomacy 1 and 2 are in effect. Frank broke these rules where-as meglobob did not as the trade had not actually begun.

[Meglobob]

I have reported Frank Trollman to the Dominions forum moderators, they can deal with it.

[Teraswaerto]

Please, anyone that still wants to say something about Sheap's Rules, pact breaking, etc., create a new thread for that discussion.

[Gandalf Parker]

Dont even bother with a new thread if its going to take this tone.

The game AARs have some leeway, but the basic rules do still apply. If the conversation switches from subject, to personal, then the thread will be locked.

On second thought a new thread might not be a bad idea. That way the game thread can continue after the personal attacks thread is locked.

Gandalf Parker

[Annette]

Sorry, folks. Locking this one up. Feel free to start a new thread for the game when tempers have cooled.

[Mindi]

I'm reopening this after a warning has been issued. Please remember to stick to our Board Rules (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/faq.php=) which includes appropriate conduct when there are disagreements. The key thing is to remember to be respectful.

Updated: A member has been banned temporarily for ignoring my warnings and some posts have been deleted. I will try to preform some additional clean up on this thread tomorrow. Please do not continue this argument or the whole thread will be locked again.

[Evilhomer]

Going to be travelling during the weekend...So will not be able to do my turns then.

[Hellboy]

Evilhomer said:
Going to be travelling during the weekend...So will not be able to do my turns then.

ok, i'll make sure you don't stale. To the extent possible, anything you can do to ensure having in a turn just before leaving, and getting your turn done shortly after coming back will be appreciated.

[Evilhomer]

The game hosted just 10 or so minutues ago, I will make sure to do this turn atleast so almost all people will have 2 new turns to look forward to.

[Sandman]

Frank sent me about 150 gems from his site-rich peninsula as part of his ill-tempered storming off. Anyone want them? I'm too honourable to keep such unrequested bonanzas. Preferably a substitute for Ermor, if one can be found.

[Evilhomer]

I recommend you either keep them (I don't think anyone mind),split them up between all nations, or destroy them. (transmuting them back and forth)

[Meglobob]

Sandman said:
Frank sent me about 150 gems from his site-rich peninsula as part of his ill-tempered storming off. Anyone want them? I'm too honourable to keep such unrequested bonanzas. Preferably a substitute for Ermor, if one can be found.



Ermor currently has about half a dozen provinces and 2 castles left and is at war with Atlantis if anyone wants to take over the position.

If no one can be found, I suggest Hellboy sets it to AI, it will at least cause me some trouble and delay the now rather easy conquest of Ermorian lands.

I have no problem with you keeping the fire gems sandman if you want.

I hope we can now all get back to playing a fun game. I am an old hack at strategy games so this bad behaviour does not bother me, I have seen worse, outright cheating. The most important thing is not to let it spoil our game and continue to have fun. Its Hellboy as the host and the effect on any new players that is the problem.

[JayThomas]

Not that I'm a glutton for punishment, but I could sub for Ermor just for grins.

Although it would probably be a step down from the AI challenge wise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

JayThomas said:
Not that I'm a glutton for punishment, but I could sub for Ermor just for grins.

Although it would probably be a step down from the AI challenge wise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



That would be fine with me, I will give you 1 turn of peace to rearrange your forces, then continue my attack. If your interested JayThomas theres another position, Marignon in the 10 player hosted middle era slow game that needs a sub. This position is in good shape and not at war. Just post in the thread, contact the host.

[JayThomas]

I'll set-up when I get home from work (6:00 PM EST) for the Ermor bloodletting. Do I need a password or anything?

[Hellboy]

Sandman said:
Frank sent me about 150 gems from his site-rich peninsula as part of his ill-tempered storming off. Anyone want them? I'm too honourable to keep such unrequested bonanzas. Preferably a substitute for Ermor, if one can be found.

That's good of you to offer Sandman, and I think probably I'll want you to do something with those gems. If we do find a sub for Ermor, then sending them to the sub would be absolutely the most appropriate thing to do. Also, Sandman, were you an ally of Ermor, or an enemy to those he was fighting?

First, however, I need to ask those who have visibility on the Ermor position: is there any point in getting a sub? At a mere 6 provinces, it sounds like a sub will have little enough chance to inflict more damage than the AI would anyhow.

Secondly, if anyone else got any windfalls out of this, please tell us now, or PM me.

Thanks,

Hellboy

[Hellboy]

JayThomas said:
Not that I'm a glutton for punishment, but I could sub for Ermor just for grins.

Although it would probably be a step down from the AI challenge wise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

That's good of you Jay, we'd appreciate it. I'll PM you later this evening (I'm also on PST).

[Sandman]

Also, Sandman, were you an ally of Ermor, or an enemy to those he was fighting?



Neutral. There was a clash between us over a province which I won, but I didn't follow up the victory. Like Ermor, I was at war with Lanka, but Agartha took care of them with little help from me.

[Hellboy]

OK, I just looked again at Frank's message, and it looks like the two recipients were Abysia and Agartha. So, if we can get both of you to send back to Ermor, along with everyone following Meglobob's policy of giving Ermor a one turn cease fire, I think that could work.

JayThomas, its certainly good of you to help us out here, it will certainly improve the game to have an active player in this not so very strong position.

[Teraswaerto]

I don't really see why you'd want to give the gems away. Certainly there is no need or obligation to do so? There is nothing wrong with a nation on the verge of defeat giving their gems to whoever they like.

The bad blood Frank has caused should make no difference with regards to the gems.

[Foodstamp]

I agree with Teraswaearto. In every MP game I have been in, someone on the verge of defeat has given gems to allies or enemies of an enemy. Never once has anyone asked that the gems be distributed amongst players.

If a sub is found for Ermor, I think it would be nice for the benefiting nations to give the gems to the new player, but certainly not required.

Ultimately, I think this is up to Agartha and Abysia.

[Hellboy]

My notion was just that the Ermor position was being sabotaged . When it comes right down to it, I really don't have a strong opinion on the question, but since it looks like we have a sub for Ermor, he should have a voice on this.

[JayThomas]

Considering the gems were Ermor's to begin with, I wouldn't mind getting them back for my feeble attempt at greatness.

Unless you all are very afraid! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(In any event, the one-turn cease fire is greatly appreciated.)

[Tyrant]

I have not seen the current turn, so i don't know what was sent to me, but since it was part of a temper tantrum I will send it back if JT is subbing or destroy it otherwise.

Wills can be ok in some circumstances (long alliances, dog-piles etc), but in general i think they are unfair to the many other players who have nothing to do with the local situation.

[Dedas]

I really believe that he should roleplay his decision on whether keeping the gems or not. If the ruler is very honorable he could of course give them to new king of Ermor, appointed by bloodline or whatever.

[JayThomas]

Do I need the password? It prompts me for this.

[Hellboy]

JayThomas said:
Do I need the password? It prompts me for this.

I just sent you a PM, please respond to that.

[Hellboy]

Hey it looks like most people have taken their turn tonight - any chance we can get everyone with their turn in tonight and get a double host in today? Maybe that'll put some pressure on Evilhomer to get another turn out for us before he leaves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Players that have not yet got their turn #28 in:

Hellboy/T'ien Ch'i (That's me, oh no! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Meglobob/Atlantis
imororg/Sauromati
Tyrant/Agartha
Darrel/Arcoscephale

[Sir_Dr_D]

I got my turn in.

I am reall surprised Frank mentioned me in that rant, and JohnArryn for that matter. Well whatever. (shrugs)

[JayThomas]

Ermor's turn is in. Wow, looks like Ermor got sliced and diced pretty good.

[Meglobob]

JayThomas said:
Ermor's turn is in. Wow, looks like Ermor got sliced and diced pretty good.



I did my very, very best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Btw, I, Atlantis so far have taken no losses beyond a couple of soldiers in this war, so you can't fail to do better than the previous incumbent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[FrankTrollman]

Post deleted by Mindi

[Sandman]

I've returned the gems (well, I kept a few as a handling charge). I don't think that Ermor is quite as near to defeat as Meglobob suggests, and I don't like to be the beneficiary of ill tempered disputes like this.

[Teraswaerto]

I thought Frank had told someone he wasn't playing anymore. If that is not the case, then giving away his nation is not something I'd agree with.