Poll: Official Multiplayer Game Server

[Maltrease]

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up. However, this time I thought I would do it in a way that makes it very easy for people to chime in with their view points.

I'm complained in the past about delayed games which was frustrating. I haven't played a single (non-blitz) multiplayer game that hasn't had server problems.

And now is appears very possible that a large multiplayer game (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=d3maars&Number=480438&page =0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=20) is gone. We still had 10+ active players and around 40 turns into the game. I don't want to tally up all the hours I spent on this game... mostly in preparation and build up to what WAS soon to come.

It is certainly understandable that a "real life" emergency can occur. If something happened to my family I can assure you that keeping the Dom3 game running would be the last thing on my mind.

However, you are still affecting many people. I would guess that their have been 100's of hours put into this game collectively by the people playing it.

And what if the cause of the game ending is not some emergency. Perhaps the host has simply "moved past" dominions or is unhappy with how they are doing in the game? This doesn't seem to be an acceptable risk to me.

I think shrapnel (or Illwinter) should setup an official game server. Please place your vote and your comments.

Thanks for your time,
Adam Schroeder

[Baalz]

Alternatively, maybe a solution could be come up with to allow a different player to host in the event the original server goes MIA? Seems like it would be as easy as distributing the information in the "ftherlnd" file to every player, so all that would be needed to switch hosts would be to connect to a different server (or email your turn files to a different person). Maybe its not quite as simple as that (I've got no idea how this architecture is, and you'd have to think about server password issues), but something like that might be workable as a future feature. I'm involved in the game Maltrease mentions and talk about a sour taste in my mouth! It really makes you think about the multi-month commitment the host is making even if he's eliminated. Obviously some percentage of people are not going to be reliable enough to follow through on that commitment.

[llamabeast]

If you handed out the ftherlnd file, each player could then host test versions of the game themselves. For example, if I was about to attack an enemy army, I could host and see if I'd win. Obviously the enemy wouldn't take a move in the test game, but that might not matter. So handing out ftherlnd files might not be a good solution.

[Baalz]

Maybe you could only host if you have $(adjustable) percent of the expected turn files?

[Teraswaerto]

The ftherlnd could be given to just a few trusted people, no need to give it to everyone. Ideally, those people would not be in the game at all.

[Gandalf Parker]

I cant see my answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Yes they should for others. But I only play solo. And I am running a server for mp. In fact Im running two servers for mp games and hosting a total of 14 games (1 demo_only, 6 2-4 player blitz games, 3 10-player mid sized games, 1 super map game, and 3 beta games)

Ive also provided backup accounts for some long-running games. Particularly play-by-email ones.

Backups are like any backup needs. Its always a good idea. Just set the --preexec command to zip up the gamesave and put it somewhere. Maybe even mail it yourself on a different machine such as a junky yahoo account. That way if the hosting machine crashes then it can be sent to someone else to continue hosting it.

The idea of cost might be a good idea to bring up since I think Shrapnel already said they were interested but the problem wasnt the server, it was someone to run it. Of course, if many people say they would be willing to pay then maybe one of the players would be willing to run one.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif
(by the way, historically on such polls. Only one in ten of the peope who say they will pay for it actually show up later. But its still a good poll.)

[Maltrease]

I agree. If it is impossible to create an official (or collectively managed) server then at least having a few "official" or "trusted" people that could store the ftherlnd files would allow people to ressurect the game if the host disappears.

Does the ftherlnd file change between turns? If not it could be as simple as mailing Gandalf (or someone else) the file at the start of each game. For the most part it will never be needed again so it shouldn't take much time from the "game keeper".

If the ftherlnd files updates every turn... then backing it up with other people is not going to be reliable safe guard method.

[Maltrease]

Re:Paying...

My initial thoughts on payment or gold level account might be something like this:

30 slots are open to the public. Games are vanilla (no mods or non-standard maps). Each person can only start one game at a time, if all 30 slots are not already taken. The "vanilla" approach will also make it easy for non-expert players to start a game and for others to easily join (without having to worry about installing mods or downloading huge maps).

Then people that contribute could *buy* their own slots. So someone that contributes $20 might have 2 personal slots. These would let the player use mods and custom maps.

This solves both the "it should come included with the game" issue while also giving the people that want to contribute something extra for their $.

However... I'm open to absolutely anything if it will get an official server running.

[FAJ]

I would be willing to pay 10+ bucks a month to garuntee my games went smoothly.

[Gandalf Parker]

With Dom3 the fatherland file does update each turn. I think its a move along the path to "turn memory" which so many people want.

Paying for a slot to run a game might actually work. I like that. It might even be best to do it as a "rent" since some games can run for a year. Instead of $20 for a game, something like $5/month.

[Velusion]

FAJ said:
I would be willing to pay 10+ bucks a month to garuntee my games went smoothly.



Aren't you in three of my games?

I'll PM you my address for payment.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lormax]

As a newbie to the community, I will probably be the last chosen for this, BUT...I have 2 extra computers doing nothing...I wouldn't mind at all setting up one as a server for the community. I'm on a stable internet connection thats up all the time as well. What would be good specs for the computer to run the games..? Then I'll know if using either one is even feasible.

[Gandalf Parker]

Mostly its memory and cpu. How much depends on alot of variables.

Lets say we start with an imaginary number of 1000.
Linux -500
Mac (I dont really know)
Windows +500

TCP/IP games +100 each
PbEM games +10 each

Small Games stay the same
Mid Sized games (<10 players and <500 provinces) +100 each
Large Games (>10 players, 1000+ provinces) +500 each

So the biggest hog would be trying to run 23 nation games on big maps as tcp/ip (always available to login) on a windows machine. The smallest hog would be running linux, even smaller if you only offer small blitz games, even smaller if you run them as PbEM (play-by-email, having the turns sent by mail or file upload and processed at a set hour each night).

But any windows machine can host one game at a time. And any crappy old box can be a decent server for a dozen games if you load linux on it. So pretty much anyone can be a host if they want to.

[Velusion]

Gandalf Parker said:
But any windows machine can host one game at a time. And any crappy old box can be a decent server for a dozen games if you load linux on it. So pretty much anyone can be a host if they want to.



I host 3 large games on a single windows box with no problems. Dom3 uses remarkably little memory if you have the correct game settings (typically 2-5 MB per game) with CPU usage only being used when processing a turn.

I should probably put all the tips I've discovered for hosting games on a windows server in a post someday.

[Lormax]

Put em up Velusion, or email me lormax23@yahoo.com. Windows it the only OS I know personally. I'll get a server started ASAP if there's enough community need for it. I'll bet the only thing the comp will really need is a memory boost. I've got enough spare other "things" (monitor, etc) laying around to get it setup.

[Gandalf Parker]

I have mine set up on KVM switches. Thats a Keyboard/Video/Mouse switch. It lets me keep both boxes running side by side and when I need to work on box two I just throw the switch. My keyboard, monitor, and mouse work on whichever machine the switch is pointing to.

[Micah]

Velusion's been doing a remarkable job hosting, there have only been a couple of issues between the 2 games I'm in, and all of those were confined to the first 2-3 turns of the second game...plus he's evidently got a shred of decency since he's keeping the servers up after getting knocked out. (seriously, I thought leaving and taking your ball with you stopped around kindergarten, I don't want to believe people would drop the server just because they got knocked out, but I'm sure its happened)

He's also got an automatic email generation upon hosting, so I don't have to obsessively check the server for my turn. I don't think we'd need an Illwinter server if everyone took a cue from him though. Excellent job (as I've mentioned to him before now)

[Velusion]

Lormax said:
Put em up Velusion, or email me lormax23@yahoo.com. Windows it the only OS I know personally. I'll get a server started ASAP if there's enough community need for it. I'll bet the only thing the comp will really need is a memory boost. I've got enough spare other "things" (monitor, etc) laying around to get it setup.



I'm working on it now. I'll post the draft in the forum when its complete.

[Saxon]

It may be worth checking in with the people who did the Space Empires 4 play by web site. It was a very effective and user friendly site and I believe the mechanics are quite similar to Dom. It was community produced and funded, with the blessing of the developer and Shrapnel. It might be possible to piggy back some of their ideas and experience. I just checked and it is still running, several years since I last used it, so it is doing well.

http://seiv.pbw.cc/text/index.jsp

[Ygorl]

Esben Mose Hansen was running 15 TCP games on an old (400 MHz?) Linux box - with a nifty web interface for administering the games!
If someone's serious about this, it might be worth looking him up and seeing if you can get the code from him. The web server was pretty slick. There were also places where it could have been improved on, rendering it even slicker...

[Gandalf Parker]

His code was made available to us, and a full set of instructions for running it, early on in the conversation about an official server.
Esben Mose Hansen Dom2 Server (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dom3&Number=445245&Forum=f 187,f194,f195&Words=%2Bapache%20%2Bmodperl%20%2Bsq l&Searchpage=0&Limit=100&Main=440726&Search=true&w here=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=5&newertyp e=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=1#Post445245)

[Tyrant]

Personally, between Gandalf, Dr. P and Graeme Dice, I've been able to get my fix just fine. But games on the forum fill up really, really fast. Like, last time i signed up 4 slots were taken while i was writing my join-up post! So i'm thinking it's prety clear that lack of games is limiting the growth of the community and it would be worth Shrapnel's time and money to do some hosting. I also worry that noobs who join a game and get clobbered and then can't find another one quick enough will give up the game.

[Meglobob]

Tyrant said:
I also worry that noobs who join a game and get clobbered and then can't find another one quick enough will give up the game.



Yes, I agree with this. New players are very vulnerable to being overrun early and becoming disillusioned with the game. The number of mistakes I have made in MP are huge and the late game in particular takes some getting used too. More beginner only games are definately a must, otherwise the community will not grow.

[Gandalf Parker]

There is also a disadvantage that with so few games, there is a higher chance that an expert will be in each game. That doesnt necessarily help newbies gain interest either.

But I dont think that anyone is arguing the need for more servers. Im not sure that we can justify extensive cost layout for one by Shrapnel. Would an extensive web signup system increase interest? Probably. Would it generate new sales? Possibly. Enough to cover the cost and slightly beyond? I dont know.

And how many games would it need to be? If it ran 10 games then that could fill up in a couple of days. And those games could run for months. 10 new games every couple of days? or every week? Even if it were 10 new games a month with all of the nations in an era, then that could end up being alot of games and alot of computer power and alot of administration.

We all agree that we want it. But its not simple after that.

[Maltrease]

How many copies of Dominions have been sold? Maybe take $.25 from each copy and put it towards the server cost, plus the amount people are willing to donate.

Personally I can't handle more then 2-3 games at a time. Sure when they are first starting out I'd love to play 10. But once you are spending 15-45 minutes a turn... that becomes a big commitment. Which then leads to abandonment or sloppy play.

Actually that is something that should be strongly conveyed to new players. I bet this "mistake" has been made by most people... I know it got me in a bit of trouble with Dom2.

I think Esbens base code is a great way to go. If the sever can give the game owners the ability to restart games, do all settings, perhaps even some file manipulation to remove a corrupt turn submission then it can be mostly self managed.

[Gandalf Parker]

On my server one of the big automation needs I have found is a way to decide that a game is dead and delete it. People tend to just wander away from the game and leave it running. Of course you can watch for anything where no one turns in a turn but that gets into problems with games that are taking a break.

[Tim Brooks]

Hi All!

We have, as mentioned, been willing to do something about this in the past but felt no one was really interested. We are still willing to help. So, talk about it and know that we are here for you guys. I will contribute my thoughts if asked.

[lch]

Tim Brooks said:
So, talk about it and know that we are here for you guys. I will contribute my thoughts if asked.


Please do contribute what you think of the idea. I, myself, think that it could be a little difficult to have the server use custom maps and mods that the players want to use. I guess the most that you'd be able to do is provide a vanilla game server, where one could upload a zipped map file, perhaps.

[Gandalf Parker]

I had a game-creation page that I was messing with
http://www.dom3minions.com/lab/MakeGame.htm

I could probably get it to read the map selection directly from the dominions3/maps directory so that it could easily support maps being added. But personally, Id probably do the uploading of new maps myself. Creating a way for users to type in what they want to upload is a security hassle unless you are using a module that someone else worked out all the kinks on.

[Maltrease]

What about a Virtual Private Server running linux?

Granted I am not real familar with this method... but I'm guessing for $50-$100/month you could get a VPS that could run several instances of Dominions?

This would eliminate the "who builds it, keeps it with power and live internet connect, etc..."