I hate horrors

[Ranger]

In my current game my pretener God got a horror mark, and has now been killed six times! This god had level 5 magic in 5 areas, 6 gems each for each area, 140 guards, magic items, armor, nothing seems to work. My god is now a complete weakling.

Watching the horror attacks
The horror teleports right pass the guards, attacks and kills my god outright on the first turn, my god never casts spells, guards are useless. I've only see guards protect against minor horrors.

What will counter Horror Attacks?

Shouldn't the horror mark go away after my god is resurrected?

This seems to unbalace the game, once your god gets a horror mark, your god is useless.

[Edi]

The only things that can counter horror attacks are basically having some sort of meat shield surrounding the god so that there is no room for the horror to reach him first. Then a barrage of high precision spells like Incinerate, Soul Slay and such, but if the spells can be resisted, you need as much penetration as you can get from high paths and items.

Horror marks do not go away at all. As for how you got a horror mark, it's best to stay away from situations where you could get one.

Edi

[Aleph]

Horrors attack people with horror marks. Not just on the strategic level, but also on the tactical battle map. Therefore, unless your bodyguards also have horror marks, (and not just any horror marks but horror marks in excess of your pretender) they will be ignored by the horror on the way to its marked target. As horrors also inflict horror marks on those they attack, there is a very tight vicious circle here.

Horror marking is, in the long term, the among worst things that can happen to your god (the other being decay, in that currently afflictions caused by old age cannot be reversed by any means, even if you have blood magic and reverse the aging). On the other hand, it's a spell that doesn't actually do anything to its target immediately - you can still use your pretender to win the battle in which they were horror marked. I'm glad it exists as an option in the game, even if it is horribly ugly - there SHOULD be something nasty and lasting you can do to even the toughest enemy pretenders, especially immortal pretenders (who, although they will keep coming back as long as they are getting killed in their dominion, will keep incurring higher and higher marks through astral claw attacks such that they'll be assaulted constantly).

[Actuarian]

For regular battles, you can surround your horror marked pretender with chaff troops set to guard commander. Then the horrors can't immediately get next to you to attack.

For strategic spells and random events, equip items that increase the number of allowable guards, then give yourself some size 4 guards; it will help some.

You can always use the hunter of heroes nerf mod and create your own that nerfs all the horrors.

[Wish]

the best way to survive horrors is to have a REALLY high magic resistance. All their attacks are MR negates.

[Ranger]

Settting Troops to guard commander doesn't work!

In the last attack of a horror, my god had 144 troops set on guard commander, horror teleports right pass the guards, attacks and kills my god outright on the first turn, my god never casts spells, guards are useless. I've only see guards protect against minor horrors

This seems to unbalace the game, once your god gets a horror mark, your god is useless. My god had once been a level 4 magic caster in 4 different areas of magic, after being killed 6 times, my god is now only has level 1 magic in one area.

I think the horror mark should go away when a god is resurrected.

[Edi]

You are not reading what is being written for you, Ranger.

You must place the bodyguard stack on top of your god on the battlefield so that your god is surrounded on all sides by guards. Otherwise the guards are useless.

Repeating your opening post is not going to do much for you, nor is your insistence that horror marks must be removed upon resurrection. You've been given advice. It's up to you to try and act on it.

Edi

[danm]

They call them HORRORS for a reason.

I'd hate to have to have them renamed "minor annoyances"

[Ranger]

Edi said:
You are not reading what is being written for you, Ranger.

You must place the bodyguard stack on top of your god on the battlefield so that your god is surrounded on all sides by guards. Otherwise the guards are useless.

Repeating your opening post is not going to do much for you, nor is your insistence that horror marks must be removed upon resurrection. You've been given advice. It's up to you to try and act on it.

Edi



Can you READ E-N-G-L-I-S-H? Your advice doesn't work.

The horror bypass the 144 guards, attacks and kills my god, on turn one!

1. Guards don't work (only work on minor Horrors).
2. My God doesn't even get to cast any spells.
3. Magic Items (armor, weapons, etc.) so far havn't done any thing.

If something can kill a magic user with 144 guards, level 4 magic in four areas, with 4 gems each, good armor, and get's taken out on turn one of a fight I THINK THIS IS A LITTLE UNBALANCED, DUH!

[Actuarian]

Ranger,

I guess it's possible something really weird is going on, but in general Edi is correct. If you place your commander in the middle of a group on the battlefield setup there is no way a horror can attack. A space has to open on the battlefield for a troop to move into it. At least that is how it has always worked for me. Check your setup and make sure you got the army setup right.

You asked for the advice. Please try to be a little more respectful of the answers. Edi may not be the most diplomatic poster, but he is very helpful and almost always correct, and his English is much better than my Finnish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Nick_K]

Horror marking is designed to be a balance for the otherwise horribly powerful supercombatant strategy. It won't instakill an enemy, but it allows a chance that the horror will get them before the SC can overrun an empire. Horror marks are not that common; they'll sometimes show up from bad luck (ai scripting, or magic sites) but this is very rare. Mainly they're because of items (controllable by the player, items that horror mark are clearly labelled as such in the manual) or because of an anti-SC strategy from a human player.
Because horror marks are designed to counter big, expensive, powerful SCs they cannot be removed easily (plus, it's thematic that they can't) and the horrors have to be tough enough to challenge SCs.

I don't think it can be considered 'unbalanced'. Horror marks are not very dangerous unless you rely on one or two powerful units, and as I said, they are supposed to be a counter for this.

As for fighting horrors... it partly depends on what your god is. If it's a puny human mage then you can't expect to beat much in melee. As for magic, remember that you can only cast 1 spell per turn. Having lots of magic in lots of areas won't help unless you have spells scripted that will kill the horror.


Anyway, I've not had to challenge a major SC yet... The doom horrors are extraordinarily powerful and I doubt you can reliably beat them. As for normal horrors, here's my thoughts on the subject:

1: I'm not sure, but it's possible that horror attacks may be tied to scales. Does anyone know if magic/drain or luck/unluck affect this?



2: Horrors bypass most defences. Many of their attacks are AN or AP, they have many attacks with good Att so high def won't help. They have magic attacks so ethereality is useless. Equip your pretender with this in mind. If he's just an archmage though, then melee equipment won't help.

3: Horrors always attack horror-marked individuals first. Bodyguards will only stop this if they are horror marked (unlikely) or if they completely surround the pretender. I believe that horror attacks count as assasination attempts so you are limited to 5 bodyguards.

4: Sorry, wish-for-blood-slaves, but I believe that horrors have at least some attacks that are not negated by magic resistance. Life drain comes to mind. However, MR is very important against some of their tougher attacks

5: Your mage does get to cast a spell. The defender acts first. If he is not casting it means that he cannot cast whatever spell you have scripted first for him

6: Armours, weapons and so on will only work against a horror, which is designed to be able to challenge large monsters with a complete selection of items, if they are very well chosen and if your base pretender is tough enough to stand a chance. If he's a big demigod with full slots then you can probably equip him to kill horrors if you are careful, although I can't give specific advice.

[Foodstamp]

I understand why Ranger is frustrated. Even if you stick a horror marked unit in the mist of a ton of soldiers, a lot of times the horror will still "fly" into the middle of your tight stack and attack the horror marked individual.

The only times I have seen a horror not bust even the tightest stack is when your using send horror and he is just bouncing around randomly attacking people on the battlefield because no one was horror marked.

[Ranger]

Nick_K said:
5: Your mage does get to cast a spell. The defender acts first. If he is not casting it means that he cannot cast whatever spell you have scripted first for him




This is not what I'm seeing, The horror appears kills my god, end of combat! I've tried settings cast spells and cast specific spells, I didn't see a difference.

I've only seen guards work and my god cast spells at minor horrors!

My god was killed six times, after each kill the god loses one level in each area of magic, my god has de-evolved to a non magic user.

Once your god starts to lose magic levels it can never regain them because of the constant attacks. There is little point in trying to build him/her backup because they will just lose them again in the next attack.

What's the point to keep re-killing a god once they de-evolved to a non-magic user?

I see little point to this and why I think it's unbalanced.
Maybe the horror needs to be rebalanced to some level of the god/magic user that's being attacked.

[Aleph]

If you need your god to be effective in the current game, then stop playing - you've lost. If you can go on without him, don't bother calling him back anymore. He's done, either way. If it's really driving you insane, try playing an imprisoned pretender with a powerful bless - you are 100% safe from horrors while imprisoned.

There are ways to avoid horrors (Returning, for example, should work unless you're hit at home), but the best advice is that which you already got - don't get marked in the first place. Horrors are supposed to be the nastiest things in the game. Insisting they need to be weakened because a spellcasting pretender is getting repeatedly obliterated by them misses the point - they are a counter to the nastiest things in the game (SCs, and especially immortal SCs), and if they were weakened so a moderate pretender could deal with them they couldn't fulfill their main role.

[Wish]

I thought MR negated lifedrain. guess not, well anyway it is armor piercing, but thats only half the armor off, so a high protection will still help. (a lot of HP will help more.)

but a lot of the other attacks are MR negates.

[Edi]

Life drain isn't negtaed by MR. You can find all the weapons MR protects against by looking at the Weapons DB and filtering out everything that doesn't have a value of TRUE in the mres column.

As for how to avoid horrors with a rainbow mage: Make sure you have astral magic and some astral gems and script the spell Returning. That'll get him out of the combat and leave only the possible bodyguards to be slaughtered.

Edi

[NTJedi]

Ranger said:
In my current game my pretener God got a horror mark, and has now been killed six times! This god had level 5 magic in 5 areas, 6 gems each for each area, 140 guards, magic items, armor, nothing seems to work. My god is now a complete weakling.



What's truly terrible about the horror marks is that every time the pretender or mage is attacked by a horror then most horrors have an attack which add additional horror_mark levels!! Its those astral claws.
There's no chance of hope or healing those horror marks... even the spell of WISH will not work. There's also nothing special about winning a battle against the horrors. There is no light at the end of the tunnel with horror marks... these things are just black holes of death.


Ranger said:
Watching the horror attacks
The horror teleports right pass the guards, attacks and kills my god outright on the first turn, my god never casts spells, guards are useless. I've only see guards protect against minor horrors.



I agree this is a huge annoyance... and there's not a single creature which can be summoned which arrive with horror marks. If gamers could summon creatures which had horror marks then they would be excellent guards for a pretender!
If the developers add a few ritual summonings which provide creatures with high horror marks then at least the gamer could try protecting its pretender. Hopefully we're given these creatures within a patch to at least have something.


Ranger said:
What will counter Horror Attacks?

Shouldn't the horror mark go away after my god is resurrected?



Unfortunately death doesn't remove horror marks... in fact many horrors have those astral claws which INCREASE the number of horror marks! As I mentioned earlier your pretender, SC or mage enters this black hole of death which has no hope.
As far as countering horror marks... the first step is to avoid being horror marked. Pretenders of large size will be more likely to receive a horror mark on a battlefield..... the same as when casting curse usually the largest creatures are targeted. Countering means either killing the horror very quickly or quickly retreating using a spell like Returning. If you want to try quickly killing these horrors then use weapons which do extra or special damage to magic beings like the moon blade because Horrors are considered magic beings.


Ranger said:
This seems to unbalace the game, once your god gets a horror mark, your god is useless.


Basically it means your pretender has entered this black hole of death... sure precautions and commands can be set to help him stay alive, but his/her overall effectiveness will never return to normal.


We can only hope the developers create a few summoning creatures which arrive with high horror marks to help protect those pretenders or mages with the horror marks.

[Endoperez]

It's true that if your pretender somehow gets a very high horror mark, he could die any turn, including the one in which he is recalled. However, getting a high horror mark is very, very hard. It can happen, of course, e.g. if your pretender has very good regeneration and lots of hitpoints, and can survive dozens of turns against one of the Doom Horrors, while still being hit by the Astral Hook attackss during most of those turns. However, it's a very rare occurence. AFAIK, players can't intentionally cause horror mark that would be strong enough to cause this. As it is, this is one of the few "bad luck, you're screwed" events that have always existed in Dominions.

I agree in that some kind of a counter would be nice, similar to taking Luck and/or Growth to protect you from early plagues. However, personally I don't think this is an important issue.

[Teraswaerto]

Well, a lone pretender against a group of mages (and some chaff probably) hitting him with multiple Astral Geysirs might do it.

[Meglobob]

Astral Geysers deliver 2 levels of horror marking apparently and can be cast by a lvl 2 astral mage, so I should imagine its very easy to give a pretender high level horror marking making a potential god useless.

A potential god should have someway to counter horrors but it should be very difficult to do, carry out.

[Endoperez]

Meglobob said:
Astral Geysers deliver 2 levels of horror marking apparently and can be cast by a lvl 2 astral mage, so I should imagine its very easy to give a pretender high level horror marking making a potential god useless.

A potential god should have someway to counter horrors but it should be very difficult to do, carry out.



Have you tested it? The last time I tested Horror Mark (the spell), it took several mages almost 20 fights (each fight consisting of [5xHorror Mark, Retreat] for every mage) to cause a Doom Horror attack. I never tested Astral Geyser, and I'm afraid I don't have time to do it now.

A mod with the following:

#modname "Test"
#selectspell "Astral Geyser"
#researchlevel 0
#pathlevel 0 1
#fatiguecost 10
#end


and any 5-to-10 province map with e.g. Pythium and Bandar Log, and you controlling both nations, is enough. It doesn't take much time to set the test up, and it's easy to change the mod to test various other things.

[Meglobob]

Endoperez said:

Meglobob said:
Astral Geysers deliver 2 levels of horror marking apparently and can be cast by a lvl 2 astral mage, so I should imagine its very easy to give a pretender high level horror marking making a potential god useless.

A potential god should have someway to counter horrors but it should be very difficult to do, carry out.



Have you tested it? The last time I tested Horror Mark (the spell), it took several mages almost 20 fights (each fight consisting of [5xHorror Mark, Retreat] for every mage) to cause a Doom Horror attack.



No I have not tested it.

I will assume that Horror Mark delivers 1 level of horror marking so based on your previous test it will take several mages almost 10 fights to cause a doom horror attack with astral geyser.

So I agree with you Endoperez, its not a big problem, as its very hard to do.

However it would be nice if you could for example wish 'purification(name)' which would remove all negative effects from the named being, ie...all horror marking, curses, old age, old age afflictions etc...

Yes that would be very, very nice. It would also not unbalance the game.

[Baalz]

Mildly off topic, I was playing around with the Astral Corruption global last night and had a bit of a humorous turn. I had the spell up, but wanted to forge a ring of wizardry with my pretender, so I gave him some blood slaves and scripted him to cast "life for a life" (no MR save, 999 damage, 100 precision).

Then the doom horror showed up. Stupid +7 blood vengence, level 9 in blood magic couldn't overcome that...

Anyway, that was the first time I've seen a doom horror (Theft of Reason, or something like that). I couldn't think of any reasonable way to kill him, has anybody actually killed him outside of freakish luck? This is a SP game I'm just goofing around with and I thought it'd be fun to try and craft a SC that could take him out in a rematch, but even best case scenario it seems you'd end up collosally horror marked by taking more than a turn or two to kill him...kind of a pyrrhic victory for an expensive SC. Hmmmm, maybe that incineration wand plus boots of quickness, plus fire resistance, plus penetration bonus items (does that help against blood vengence? Or is it your own MR?). I assume blood vengence covers ALL the damage types: poison, paralyzation, etc. Does anybody know if those "unresistable" blood spells which send you to hell circumvent blood vengence? What about other non damage dealing spells, like hell bind heart (I'm assuming you can't actually keep him, can you?), confligration, numbness, etc. ? What about stuff that causes a delayed damage, like fire/death clouds, does that damage track back to the caster? What about reactive damage like a fire shield, aegis, etc.?

[Wish]

I once killed the eater of heroes (who was on an indy province) with a well equipped Lord of the Night - using that sharpest tooth or whatever (the really poisonous one) as the weapon.

He wasn't marked so the horror spent some time on the skeletons from the wraith crown and the doom bats.

also i think blood vengence is the sort of thing you need MR to overcome... always risky though.

[Aeshi]

Horrow mark is a S2 Thau 1 spell...So why haven't a group of S2 wizards just overthrown the pretenders by spamming horror mark,letting the horrors/doom horrors do the work for them and taken over?

[Meglobob]

Steelfang said:
letting the horrors/doom horrors do the work for them and taken over?



Why don't the horrors/doom horrors just move in fullstop, destroy the gods, slaughter everything and turn the world into doom horror paradise?

Would'nt be too difficult for them really given there power.

[Potatoman]

It's tougher than it sounds for a couple of reasons. First, the logistics of getting a bunch of S2 wizards into combat with the enemy pretender is problematic, especially if he isn't a SC.
Second, horror mark will target the highest HP unit in the opposing army. If the pretender is a little guy like an archmage (ripe for horror mark), he'll probably get passed over in favor of that elephant on the back line.
Third, sending in suicide squads of S2 wizards is wasting a lot of S2 wizards. Horror mark x5 is pretty much conceding the battle, and you'll need chaff to buy them the time they need. It gets expensive pretty fast.

[mivayan]

Baalz said:
Then the doom horror showed up. Stupid +7 blood vengence, level 9 in blood magic couldn't overcome that...



Magic skill doesn't matter, if the spell would harm him without blood vengeance, your own MR determines if you or him gets the pain. Equip all the MR items you can forge and have slots for.


Meglobob said:
Why don't the horrors/doom horrors just move in fullstop, destroy the gods, slaughter everything and turn the world into doom horror paradise?

Would'nt be too difficult for them really given there power.


They're too far out into the astral dimensions to be able really see the world unless someone light a target flare/horror mark.

Or, they like it the way it is, so they can come in and feast on magical energies now and then.

[Nick_K]

Maybe you could do something with Mage Bane... A flying (to get the first hit), high MR, high attack SC could presumably get a hit in. I've never used it, but I seem to recall reading that the extra fatigue from mage bane is unresistable.
Plus, it gives horror marks, so you'd get lots of chances to duel the doom horrors.

[Edi]

Mage Bane is even better because not only does it cause extra fatigue (linked weapon), but the extra fatigue has anotehr linked weapon named Slay Magic which causes 9999 damage to magic beings that fail MR. So, boots of quickness, mage bane and high defense might get you somewhere.

Just better make damn sure that your SC isn't a magic being, because otherwise that Slay Magic bit could bite you in the arse big time via blood vengeance...

Edi

[Wish]

does blood vengeance do a 1 for 1 damage redirection or does it swap targets?

what I am saying is would it matter if your mage was magical or not?

[Edi]

Swap targets. I'm not sure how mage bane treats mages, if it considers them magic beings or not, or if the slay magic weapon has a trigger that activates only on targets that possess magic.

Edi

[Belcarl]

Slightly out of topic. Has anyone managed to enslave a Doom Horror with spells or items like "Tartarian chains" ?

The setup would ofcourse need a pretty rock solid SC, or a mage with lots of guards.

I have tried this in a singel player game, but havent had any horror visits on my prepared SC yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Nick_K]

I've heard that wished-for doom horrors tend to randomly disappear. I suspect enslaved ones might do likewise. Doom horrors presumably have huge MR so enslaving them would be difficult.

Oh, is the 'slay magic' ability the same as from the 'elf bane' weapon? From the description, I believe that only works on creatures with the 'magic being' trait.

[Edi]

Yes, it is, so it should only work on magic beings.

[Aleph]

Claws/Prison always work - at least, I've never seen them fail. And if you can't beat them, join them - come over to Blood.

I've been trying to enslave horrors with Hellbind Heart, and it doesn't work - the battle ends when the spell goes off successfully, but you don't get to keep the horror. I think it's more about the assassination format, though - I've definitely gone for the Dreams of Rl'yeh / Enslave Mind combination in the past, and the same result - you're considered the victor, but you don't get the commander.

BUT I too have been having a great time in a LA Mictlan game with Astral Corruption - I beelined straight to it after a slight diversion for SDRs and Jaguar Toads. Then I finished out Blood Magic so I could have access to Claws of Cocytus and Infernal Prison. These work 100% of the time on horrors, just like they do everything else (at least, I've never seen them fail, and that includes on Kurgi and several other Doom Horrors). Trouble/opportunity is, horrors are tough - especially the kind of horrors (like, say, Kurgi) who show up looking for trouble when you have cast a 100+ gem global spell under Astral Corruption. So they eventually find their way out of Inferno, and once they do they are regular units in the world. So at that point you've got a shot at enslaving them.

I haven't pulled it off yet - one time I brought too large an army and my commander decided that it would be a waste of resources to hellbind a horror, and fighting Kurgi my placement was off and my commander didn't advance into hellbinding range. But I'm convinced it's possible, and I think blood magic is the way to do it - it's the lowest level domination spell in the game in terms of path requirements, therefore you can get the highest amount of bonuses for going above and beyond, and bloodslaves are accessible in much larger numbers than other gem types. They also make a nice human shield around your spellcaster.

I haven't yet gotten to the point of casting Send Horror at my own army, but I'm getting there. Since that's a battle format, not assassination, and yet the horrors normally go away at the end, I'm not sure what the net result will be.

[Nick_K]

Actually, whether the mage bane instakill works against your commander or not is pretty irrelevent... if the fatigue gets redirected onto you from blood vengeance while you're fighting a doom horror then you're dead meat anyway I'd imagine.
Interesting about Infernal prison. I haven't used in yet in DOms3. Where do the horrors return to when they get out?

[mivayan]

Edi said:
Swap targets. I'm not sure how mage bane treats mages, if it considers them magic beings or not, or if the slay magic weapon has a trigger that activates only on targets that possess magic.

Edi


What makes you say that?

Looks like a 1 for 1 damage redirection is more accurate, since for example arrows need to get through the target's protection before blood vengeance can hurt the archer.

[Baalz]

Aleph (or anyone), have you played around with the Horror Seed spell? The description seems horribly cool for the cost (20 blood slaves?!?), but it's kinda hard to see an effect and knowing how some of the other spells are bugged I'm wondering how well it works. I cast it a couple times on my own provinces/armies, but given I've got astral corruption and a bunch of lightless lanterns its a bit hard to tell what, if any, effect it has since there are horror attacks every few turns anyway.

Hmmm, I wonder, if the doom horrors are actually in a special state while they're in hell (as would seem to be the case if they find thier way back to the "real" world), I wonder if you can send them all to hell so they no longer are available to attack people (might be worthwhile if you've got a very horror marked pretender you'd like to call back who can't deal with the doom horrors himself). As they are unique so there are a presumably a finite number of them. I'm guessing that if you can actually hellbind one of them the result would be similar to if you wished for one...he'd disapear a few turns later.

[Aleph]

Nick - It seems to be like getting lost in the void - they just pop out wherever. Certainly a bunch have shown up in places I've never cast any spells from. If they show up over a fort of yours they will start sieging it - the first time it happened to me I was like "what paratroopers could have eaten through my PD" and was stunned to see that Kurgi was sieging a fort of mine.

Baalz - I've used Horror Seed a bit but, as an SP player, I don't get feedback on how it works - and, like you, I'm using it in conjunction with Astral Corruption, so I don't know where all the horror marks on my enemies are coming from. The only thing I've noticed is that sometimes after using it extensively I'll be fighting a big enemy army and sometimes after I kill someone a Horror will pop out. Whoops! Seems much less effective than a nice mix of Infernal Disease and Send Horror, overall, and it's usually only my pretender who can cast it, so it's a low priority for me compared to the other nastiness he can be throwing around.

I've also noticed what I believe you refer to in your second paragraph - I'm pretty sure I've cast massive 100+ gem spells and only been attacked by a regular Horror, which would imply that the Doom Horrors are all busy elsewhere. If so, you're weakening your hold on the world through the Claws/Prison combo, but it's still a small price to pay to be able to continue normal spellcasting and forging. Even a regular Horror is good enough to wipe out most commanders (as the OP is so stricken by).

Does anyone know the timing on Astral Corruption? That is, if you throw a Dispel at it, will you be attacked by a horror if the Corruption is dispelled? Not that there's much chance of any blood spell being dispelled unless you're in a large MP game and people gang up to dispel it, given the prevalence of blood slaves compared to most other gem types.

[Taqwus]

Off-hand, I'm not entirely sure that you -want- to enslave Kurgi, anyway. An experiment some time ago with a preplaced, player-owned Kurgi suggested that he is not responsive to commands, and has a tendency to adversely affect the minds of those in the province where he's stubbornly parked himself.

[Wish]

both true

luckily kurgi doesn't hang out long.

[Taqwus]

Of course, my really twisted sense of humor suggests that if Kurgi sticks around somewhere for a while, you should at least try to horror-mark it just to see whether horrors get attacked by horrors.

Interesting that he appeared. Without Astral Corruption -- I've seen only the Eater of Gods and the Hunter of Heroes, -maybe- the Eater of Dreams but I can't recall. Never saw Kurgi or Scabiel appear in 'ordinary' play.

[Maltrease]

It would be fun to return Kurgi's gift if you take control of him.

Perhaps it will be like eating anti-pasta before your spaghetti... and wondering why you still feel hungry after dinner.

[Aleph]

Taqwus - Actually, I'd definitely want to enslave Kurgi, just to do it. That province be damned - I've got me some Kurgi!

But then, it's these experiments that keep me entertained on the large maps once I've effectively won, which for Mictlan is usually when I have Construction 4, Blood 9. At this point, you can go bombing through the other research ranks tossing out valuable globals as you go with your commanders protected by your banishment spells, while other nation's mages are dying hand over fist just trying summon vine men.

[normalphil]

I'm with ranger here with thinking that the people responding to this thread haven't quite grasped a part of what he's saying.

I recently ran an EA Abyssia SP game with a F9B6 Moloch, got Malphus on the second turn, and decided to start Devil spamming with soul contracts. The horror marks didn't start showing for a while so I was cheap about it and used regular infantry to guard the contract holders. A few years later, I was getting a fresh horror attack on somebody each month, and started paying attention to them. They with little variation went like this;

Turn 1 (me): Contract-holder either casts Astral Shield or Fire Shield, depending if he's an Anthamat or a Warlock. Size 10 Bodyguard squad travels forward their full movement trying to come to grips with the Horror.

Turn 1 (horror): The Horror flies up to my now uncovered contract-holder and kills him.

Variations were those intances where the horror didn't manage to fully kill the contract-holder on the first turn and killed him on the second turn before the bodyguards could turn around and get to the fight, and that one time where the mage survived long enough for his bodyguards to get back to where the fight was and eventually kill the horror.

When it got annoying I started assigning Devils as bodyguards. That didn't actually work as well as I thought it would... they fly out and attack the horror well enough, but if they don't kill it on the first turn, you're back where you started.


Bodyguards in a Special Attack fight where the oponnent flies have a glaring weakness (although you probably weren't going to even be a speedbump to that Vastness anyway...). I can't really think of a way to fix it beyond positioning your gaurds so that they're a full movement behind the commander. But that's easy to screw up.

[Baalz]

Bodygaurds I've found work the best against horrors are ones that fly and have magic weapons. Devils may have a hard time killing the horror on the first turn, but (Mictlan) fire blessed Eagle warriors do a knock up job. I imagine spring hawks, for instance, would do equally well.

But yes, in general bodyguarding against horrors is a bit difficult.

[Teraswaerto]

I don't think it's a problem that a basic human (or something similar) will practically always die to a horror attack. You can avoid getting marked, and once marked the attacks are rare.

Just accept that the commander will die when the horror comes. It's not like Soul Contracts need to be made any better.

[NTJedi]

normalphil said:
I'm with ranger here with thinking that the people responding to this thread haven't quite grasped a part of what he's saying.

I recently ran an EA Abyssia SP game with a F9B6 Moloch, got Malphus on the second turn, and decided to start Devil spamming with soul contracts. The horror marks didn't start showing for a while so I was cheap about it and used regular infantry to guard the contract holders. A few years later, I was getting a fresh horror attack on somebody each month, and started paying attention to them. They with little variation went like this;

Turn 1 (me): Contract-holder either casts Astral Shield or Fire Shield, depending if he's an Anthamat or a Warlock. Size 10 Bodyguard squad travels forward their full movement trying to come to grips with the Horror.

Turn 1 (horror): The Horror flies up to my now uncovered contract-holder and kills him.

Variations were those intances where the horror didn't manage to fully kill the contract-holder on the first turn and killed him on the second turn before the bodyguards could turn around and get to the fight, and that one time where the mage survived long enough for his bodyguards to get back to where the fight was and eventually kill the horror.

When it got annoying I started assigning Devils as bodyguards. That didn't actually work as well as I thought it would... they fly out and attack the horror well enough, but if they don't kill it on the first turn, you're back where you started.


Bodyguards in a Special Attack fight where the oponnent flies have a glaring weakness (although you probably weren't going to even be a speedbump to that Vastness anyway...). I can't really think of a way to fix it beyond positioning your gaurds so that they're a full movement behind the commander. But that's easy to screw up.



Well you could try providing the horror marked mage/pretender with blood slaves... yes they die easy but they will stay next to the commander.

[Aleph]

Normalphil - You could have scripted the Warlock to cast Returning and made sure he had a couple astral gems on him at all times. I think you have to store him away from your capital, but besides that it's a foolproof way to keep your Devil factory going indefinitely. And the other solutions listed above work fine as well.

I think we understand just fine, though - we just disagree that it's a problem. Don't intentionally horror mark anyone you want to survive in the long term. Heck, even the astral corruption stuff I was describing on the previous page didn't cause horror marks - it just caused predictable horror attacks under certain circumstances.

Aside: Do horrors fly or teleport? If they fly you could drop a staff of storms into the picture.

[Nick_K]

IIRC from Dom2 Horrors fly, but they can fly during storms

[Ranger]

I don't have a problem with horrors taking out a powerfull magic user, but gods (pretenters) should have some defence against them, other wise it's just game. Who would follow a god that get's killed every two years and comes back weaker each time!

[Nick_K]

If you're going to have pretenders appearing as physical units in the world, and you're going to have physically-average pretenders such as archmages in the game then you have to accept the possibility of regular death. You can get the same result if you capture the enemies home province and simply kill them as soon as they're called back, for example. I'm sure you can also regularly kill a pretender with spells or assassination.
There are a number of ways which a pretender can protect itself which have been mentioned here. Primarily by casting returning or by not getting horror marked in the first place. I've played around a half-dozen SP games and the only horror marks I've ever received have bee nfrom items. It is something that the player has a lot of control over.

[mivayan]

normalphil said:
Turn 1 (me): Contract-holder either casts Astral Shield or Fire Shield, depending if he's an Anthamat or a Warlock. Size 10 Bodyguard squad travels forward their full movement trying to come to grips with the Horror.


If it's a strong mage that can kill a horror with a few casts of incinerate or frozen heart, 10 archers might be better. They'll not harm the horror but they wont move either.

Otherwise - oh well. The guy is dead, but at least he got to live in the palace while his friends died in war.

[normalphil]

mivayan said:

normalphil said:
Turn 1 (me): Contract-holder either casts Astral Shield or Fire Shield, depending if he's an Anthamat or a Warlock. Size 10 Bodyguard squad travels forward their full movement trying to come to grips with the Horror.


If it's a strong mage that can kill a horror with a few casts of incinerate or frozen heart, 10 archers might be better. They'll not harm the horror but they wont move either.

Otherwise - oh well. The guy is dead, but at least he got to live in the palace while his friends died in war.



That's a thought. It even gives me something worthwhile to do with the odd scorpian man.

[Vicious Love]

Ranger said:
Who would follow a god that get's killed every two years and comes back weaker each time!



People have followed gods that get killed every year. And the whole path loss thing isn't something you advertise, unless you feel like guilt-tripping your followers. "Your SINS are why I can't cast Master Enslave anymore! Go, find me an S1 booster, and I might forgive you your wicked trespasses."

[Tuidjy]

Have horrors changed this much from Dominions II? I just got my copy
and have not even installed it yet, but in Dominions II, horrors were
only a minor annoyance for a tough pretender in the late game.

I also remember having to protect an empowered Arch Theurg, whom I was
using for forging. I gave him the ring that let him have ten oversized
bodyguards, and a bunch of blood slaves. This gave him at least two
spell casts, and he was a high earth mage... :-)

Quickness, the horror gets close and eats three slaves, and then the four
petrifies always do the trick. Hell, usually the first one did.

Now that I think about it, I remember that on the supercombat tournament
someone fielded an empowered horror, to pathetic results. Should be
in the archive. Ah, memories...

[Edi]

Yes, they have changed. The doom horrors are all uniques now and each one of them generally eats most armies for lunch.

The doom horrors of Dom2 are pitiful mewling kittens compared to the Dom3 ones. Your arch theurg and his bodyguards would last into the second round against the Hunter of Heroes. Maybe.

Grab the unit DB for Dom3 (link in my sig), look through the unit display list for the following monsters and do a comparison:
Eater of Dreams
Maker of Ruins
Hunter of Heroes
Eater of Gods (3 versions, the 2 physically weak ones are truly terrifying)
Slave to Unreason

There could be a couple of others, but you can start with those. They're pure murder, each and every one.

Edi

[SlipperyJim]

Tuidjy said:
Have horrors changed this much from Dominions II? I just got my copy and have not even installed it yet, but in Dominions II, horrors were only a minor annoyance for a tough pretender in the late game.



As Edi wrote, Horrors have gotten a lot tougher now. Also, Horrors will horror-mark their victims. And each successive level of horror mark means that you'll get bigger and nastier Horrors who attack you more and more frequently....

It's a vicious cycle.

[Aleph]

Or a happy cycle, if you're on the right side of Astral Corruption.

[Taqwus]

Does the Maker of Ruins ever storm a castle? I seem to recall him having a massive siege bonus (to the tune of... 500, memory tells me) -- but I'm not sure what it'd actually mean unless he storms.

[Ranger]

Should Horror Mark end the game?

If your god gets a horror mark he/she is doomed! They will die again and again while getting weaker and weaker!

I don't mind losing high power magic users, but a pretenter god (main character in the game) should have some defence, otherwize it's game over!

[Olive]

Maltrease said:
It would be fun to return Kurgi's gift if you take control of him.



Like that ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3444/gurgicv5.jpg

Just got it now. I was searching the word Kurgi because he seems buggy - unpossible to move him in spite oh his 10 move. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[mivayan]

Tuidjy said:
I also remember having to protect an empowered Arch Theurg, whom I was
using for forging. I gave him the ring that let him have ten oversized
bodyguards, and a bunch of blood slaves. This gave him at least two
spell casts, and he was a high earth mage... :-)

Quickness, the horror gets close and eats three slaves, and then the four
petrifies always do the trick. Hell, usually the first one did.


Cant see why that wouldn't work even now. Need more magic resistance now though, what with some horrors having blood vengeance +7.

[lch]

It has already has been said over and over: If you don't want to lose your units some time later on, then avoid getting them horror marked. You don't have to use those items that leave horror marks. Sure they are good, but that's why they leave horror marks - it's like a deal with the devil.

The only thing that seems to frustrate people alot here is that Horrors are exponentially more powerful than their units and have no trouble at all to kill them on turn one or two. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif


Olive said:
Just got it now. I was searching the word Kurgi because he seems buggy - unpossible to move him in spite oh his 10 move. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif


He doesn't need to move, he has an attack rating of 0. He only needs to sit around since all his attacks are ranged and the blood vengeance alone should be enough to work for him.

[Nick_K]

I've heard somewhere that Kurgi won't move on the strategic map, and spreads madness in the province you have him in. Does he have insanity(100) perchance?

[Velusion]

Ranger said:
Should Horror Mark end the game?

If your god gets a horror mark he/she is doomed! They will die again and again while getting weaker and weaker!

I don't mind losing high power magic users, but a pretenter god (main character in the game) should have some defence, otherwize it's game over!



First - the game is not over if your pretender is not on this mortal plane (aka dead). Why do you keep saying that?

Yes, if you put your pretender in situations where he might be horror marked you are risking his life. Either live with the risk or don't.

I think most people here would agree that getting horror marked should be a very bad thing and don't have a problem with the fact that even pretenders can rarely stand against horrors.

[Ranger]

[quote]
It has already has been said over and over: If you don't want to lose your units some time later on, then avoid getting them horror marked. /quote]

That's not the issue, you can't stop from being attacked, so you can't stop from being unlucky and getting a horror mark!

So why should horror marks end the game? Because it does if your pretenter get's horror marked, it's game over.

[Olive]

Nick_K said:
I've heard somewhere that Kurgi won't move on the strategic map, and spreads madness in the province you have him in. Does he have insanity(100) perchance?



Yes, I was meaning he can't move on the strategic map. He had no madness, it turned to 10 when I equipped him with his gift.

Bur I think it's just for fun in SP, horrors are too unreliable to play with in MP imho.

Has someone already mind enslaved the Eater of Gods ? I always miserably failed.

[lch]

Ranger said:

It has already has been said over and over: If you don't want to lose your units some time later on, then avoid getting them horror marked.



That's not the issue, you can't stop from being attacked, so you can't stop from being unlucky and getting a horror mark!


Yeah, that's why horror marks are bad. Exactly.


So why should horror marks end the game? Because it does if your pretenter get's horror marked, it's game over.


Why do you always repeat this even if it isn't true? When your pretender dies then he is dead, nothing else, you don't actually lose the game at all - you can still win it. He even comes back by himself, but the horror marks on him will stay, so you better make sure that you didn't give him any of those in the first place.

[SlipperyJim]

The main source of horror marks is certain items. Don't give any of these items to your pretender. Problem solved!

Oh, wait ... you can also get horror-marked by a handful of spells (or a very rare magic item) in combat. Okay, so don't take your pretender into combat. Honestly, a pretender who stays in the lab -- researching/forging/casting -- will not get a horror mark unless you equip a Very Evil item.

However, you might want to take your pretender into combat. Fair enough. Demigods on the battlefield can be pretty cool. Actually, combat isn't very dangerous when it comes to horror marks. As stated earlier, horror marks in combat are only inflicted by a couple of rare spells and magical items. Frankly, taking your pretender into combat is much more likely to get a curse, an affliction, or just-plain-dead. To further minimize the chances of getting horror-marked, choose your opponents carefully.

...

Summary: Yes, getting horror-marked is No Fun. However, it's also very avoidable. Learn what causes horror marks, then avoid those things. Once you get the hang of it, your pretender will be safe from those nasty horrors!

Of course, other bad things can (and will) happen. The world of Dominions 3 is not Disneyland. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Taqwus]

There's also at least one way of remotely inflicting horror marks on people -- Horror Seed -- although the odds of nailing a pretender with that are probably fairly low assuming a decent escort, and this can be made more difficult via dome spells.

Stumbling onto and getting unlucky with a Vale of Infinite Horror, or getting unlucky after killing somebody who's B9-blessed, might also be problematic.

But yes, if you're in battle, being smacked by a dozen Seithkonas casting Nether Darts or fending off F9W9 Helhirdings might be a more serious concern...

[SlipperyJim]

Stupid Lizard Shamans always Curse my pretender.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Wish]

yeah i never send pretenders in against lizards, without a bunch of chaff to draw the curses.

I think adding the functionality of horror marks being removed from pretenders upon a successful call god wouldn't hurt the balance of the game at all and would ease the frustration of losing gods to doom horrors over and over.

[PvK]

Yep. I've played hundreds of hours (at least) of Dominions 3 and just recently experience what was I think my first horror attack due to a horror-mark. A Lesser Horror showed up to punish one of my necromancers for using wicked magic items. The necromancer raised over a dozen undead, who took care of the horror before it reached the necromancer.

Of course, there is the point that human players can use various horror magics to evil effect... but there are lots of other very evil uses of magic in Dominions, too. Nature of the beast.

If one really wants to play without worrying about horror marks, though, just mod the horrors into something that's just a nuisance (like a black hawk or something), as was done when the Hunter of Heroes bug was active.

PvK

[Xietor]

I think most SC's with good items can beat Horror. If you are horror marked keep 5 elite body guards. I think staff of storms will prevent horror from flying up to you.

If that premise is correct(it stops most things from flying)
then your sc has time to buff with spells and your body guards may be able to slow it down a good bit, if not kill it.

[Taqwus]

SoS isn't all that helpful, except to do lightning damage (to which, if memory serves, they're generally not resistant). And if you're interested in doing elemental damage, Phoenix Rod might be a better pick as incinerate is 100-prec.

[Edi]

Cheaper to make too and air gems have a wider variety of uses than fire to boot.

[Xietor]

staff of storms prevents flying units from flying. that keeps them from flying up to you in 1 turn.

[Graeme Dice]

Horrors, storm demons, elemental air queens, and Caelum Storm Guard and Storm Generals can all fly in storms. I might have missed someone else that can fly during a storm.

[Reverend Zombie]

Yomi tengus supposedly fly in storms, but I never tested.

[Xietor]

well,

so much for that(sos) idea. i think ethereal crossbow would kill one, no?

[Edi]

Graeme Dice said:
Horrors, storm demons, elemental air queens, and Caelum Storm Guard and Storm Generals can all fly in storms. I might have missed someone else that can fly during a storm.


Tempest Warriors from EA Caelum (I think), all Tengus, air elementals and possibly a few more units as well. There were a surprising number of stormflyers among the units.

[Edi]

Xietor said:
well,

so much for that(sos) idea. i think ethereal crossbow would kill one, no?


If it gets past the MR of the horror.

[Nick_K]

IIRC wearing the winged helmet also allows commanders to fly in a storm, assuming they have the 'fly' ability, that is.

[Teraswaerto]

It didn't in Dom2. No idea if it does that now.

[TirAsleen]

My problem is rather i never see a doom horror, cause i do not use any horror mark giving items... i could see lesser horrors attacking weak mages with lightless laterns.

Wonder what special to do, to see a doom horror pretty quickly when starting a game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wish]

mod wish to zero research and 1 pearl. wish for horrors.

[Taqwus]

TirAsleen said:
Wonder what special to do, to see a doom horror pretty quickly
when starting a game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Mod a site that gives you
#homecom 651
#homecom 1150
#homecom 1151
#homecom 1271
#homecom 1407

and put it in your capital. Recruit. Peek. Run away screaming.


Or make Astral Corruption essentially free and easy.

Idle thought -- one could create a scenario with an AI nation that had Astral Corruption and Utterdark as national level-0 spells, modded to B1H9 and D1H9 respectively, with a B1D1H9 Doomsday Clock immobile commander that autogenerated B10D10. Tick, tock. Tick, tock... of course, if it cast AC before casting UD, there might be a problem.

[Edi]

That's not quite all of them. Hunter of Heroes, Maker of Ruins, Eater of Dreams, Slave to Unreason, Eater of Gods (3 versions), and I think there might have been one more. But whether you look them all up or just a few, it should give you an idea (as well as boost your insanity rating by 50% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

Eater of Gods doesn't look like much until you look at the physically weaker versions and check the ability named True Ethereal...

All of these can be found in the Unit DB.

Easiest way to do is mod the start sites of EA Mictlan (sites 130-133, iirc) and use 5x #homecom <nbr> on each to put the doom horror numbers there and start a game with the mod enabled. It'll show you all of them in one recruitment screen.

[Sombre]

No use, you're talking to 'the man who would not mod' ;]

[Edi]

For the curious, the full list of doom horrors is:

651 Eater of Dreams
1148 Eater of Gods
1149 Eater of Gods
1150 Eater of Gods
1151 Slave to Unreason
1271 Maker of Ruins
1407 Hunter of Heroes

[TirAsleen]

Well, if its worth to mod i mod. Since i never see any doom horrors in regular games i play with a friend, it seems a good idea to try a mod then.

[Wish]

hunter of heroes is a panzy

[Taqwus]

Yeah, I didn't include all three forms of Umor -- only five units can be recruitable per province. If memory serves, the uid I chose was one of the scarier ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Bwaha]

I may be wrong, but I think horrors can't go underwater. If some mage that I care about gets marked I put him underwater and he doesn't get hounded by these critters. :D

[K]

I may be wrong, but I think horrors can't go underwater. If some mage that I care about gets marked I put him underwater and he doesn't get hounded by these critters. :D

Just tested it, and it is not true.

Horrors also fly underwater.

[chrispedersen]

Edi said:
You are not reading what is being written for you, Ranger.

You must place the bodyguard stack on top of your god on the battlefield so that your god is surrounded on all sides by guards. Otherwise the guards are useless.

Repeating your opening post is not going to do much for you, nor is your insistence that horror marks must be removed upon resurrection. You've been given advice. It's up to you to try and act on it.

Edi



Can you READ E-N-G-L-I-S-H? Your advice doesn't work.

The horror bypass the 144 guards, attacks and kills my god, on turn one!

1. Guards don't work (only work on minor Horrors).
2. My God doesn't even get to cast any spells.
3. Magic Items (armor, weapons, etc.) so far havn't done any thing.

If something can kill a magic user with 144 guards, level 4 magic in four areas, with 4 gems each, good armor, and get's taken out on turn one of a fight I THINK THIS IS A LITTLE UNBALANCED, DUH!

Gee,
And perhaps if no one else has a problem, perhaps *you* are a little 'duh'.

There are many things in here that do work:
1. High MR. think.. 28ish.
2. Kill the horror first.
3. Script returning. Have another mage cast an AoE spell that will damage you.
4. Put yourself in the middle of size 4 guards. Don't just give yourself guards.
you have to tactically place yourself in the middle of a square of them. It really does matter the size and placement of the guards.
5. Cast Phoenix pyre (or blink); be earth blessed; have amulet of resilience, boots of messenger. If your reinv (or regen) is high enough.. you'll outlast the combat.
6. Take an immortal god.
7. Stop using items that horrormark you.

[Endoperez]

3. Script returning. Have another mage cast an AoE spell that will damage you.

Returning is an instant teleport to capital, no damage needed. Ritual of Returning should work great when combined with Mistform.


Good advice otherwise, although a year or so late. :p

[HoneyBadger]

Blinking away from assassins might just actually be a somewhat valuable use of that particular spell...
When Immortal Pretenders are killed-if I remember right?-you don't lose any of their Paths. Too bad there's no artifact that confers immortality, although the Elixer of Life is another decent idea.

Among the best choices for bodyguards against Horrors:
Watchers-big, immobile, hard to destroy, lightning attack. Great for immobile or seldom-moved Pretenders, less great for ones you're going to move a lot. The patrol bonus is an added plus, though. No resistance needed.
The aforementioned Spring Hawks-etherial, flying, area shock attack. You'll probably want shock resistance with these guys.
Longdead archers-Banefire bow-use a ring of warning and 10 of them, if you can, with these guys, since they're not the toughest dudes, at 5 hp each. No resistance needed.
Frost fiends-frost blast, cold effect. Much better than Devils, especially against major Horrors, but you'll need cold resistance.
Storm Demons-flying, 2 attacks, shock damage. Probably the best choice among blood-summons.
Fire Snake-fire flare plus venemous fangs makes these guys a good all-purpose bodyguard choice. Not the best, but certainly not the worst. Great in combination with storm and ice damage units. Resistance to fire is recommended.
Scorpion Man-enchanted bow, enchanted sword, multiple attacks. 10 of these, with a really powerful Pretender, just might be able to survive a Doom Horror-or not?

Amphiptere: Flying, plus venomous fangs, plus poison spray-Note: the only pure poisoner I'll bother to list, since poison spray puts it above other flying poison weapon units-for my reasoning on poison, see below. An amazing bodyguard choice if you're "just" facing Horrors, but I would still prefer to put 1 or 2 Amphiptere in combination with other bodyguard types, to protect against normal assassins. Poison resistance is probably a good idea, but it's good for anyone you're worried about being a target for assassins.

If you can't get any of these, investing in some fire or cold drakes as bodyguards for a badly horrormarked Pretender is an ok choice, since they don't project heat or cold auras-thus, you can recruit them alongside each other, and you don't necessarily have to wear resistance items, just to survive your bodyguards-plus they have elemental breath weapons. Relatively expensive, but 40 (or even 80) gems is probably less than your Pretender's life is worth.

They also work together well with the other bodyguard suggestions I've mentioned, since they won't put them at risk, either, and drakes are tough enough to be able to survive most friendly fire.

Note: I don't like using units that *just* do magical, or poisonous (or just those two) types of damage, because a lot of assassins are going to be poison resistant, and horrors are often *very* resistant to magical weapons. Multiple attacks are ok, but you need more than just that on a good bodyguard, since a dozen normal attacks per round might still not get through true etherialness.

Big guards are ok, if they don't move, but flying or shooting guards are better, since they can strike the would-be assassin anywhere on the battlefield.

The reason for this is that I've lost more commanders to being "faked out" by assassins, who get past my guards without killing them, than I've ever lost commanders to assassins/horrors, after they've killed the bodyguards.

[rdonj]

If you don't mind your pretender going mad, the astral rod that shifts things out of existence is pretty good at getting rid of horrors. I've seen a master lich defeat at least one doom horror with it.

[Gregstrom]

I've had an E9W9 Cyclops with the Summit laugh off the Eater of Gods.

[Meglobob]

If you are attacked underwater, a mage scripting encase in ice x2, frozen heart, encase in ice, frozen heart, cast spells will kill the horror a high % of the time. Put 5 body guards as well and to avoid your own mage running away from fear aura, items like dragon helm, ring of the warrior, bear claw talisman help, various dragon scale armour, fire plate and fire brand help alot. Place right at the front of the battlefield as well.

Underwater races can happly forge/cast spells with astral corruption up using those tactics.

[Psycho]

If you don't mind your pretender going mad, the astral rod that shifts things out of existence is pretty good at getting rid of horrors. I've seen a master lich defeat at least one doom horror with it.

You got lucky. The insta-death effect of the astral rod is MR negated.

[Epaminondas]

Edi said:
You are not reading what is being written for you, Ranger.

You must place the bodyguard stack on top of your god on the battlefield so that your god is surrounded on all sides by guards. Otherwise the guards are useless.

Repeating your opening post is not going to do much for you, nor is your insistence that horror marks must be removed upon resurrection. You've been given advice. It's up to you to try and act on it.

Edi



Can you READ E-N-G-L-I-S-H? Your advice doesn't work.

The horror bypass the 144 guards, attacks and kills my god, on turn one!

1. Guards don't work (only work on minor Horrors).
2. My God doesn't even get to cast any spells.
3. Magic Items (armor, weapons, etc.) so far havn't done any thing.

If something can kill a magic user with 144 guards, level 4 magic in four areas, with 4 gems each, good armor, and get's taken out on turn one of a fight I THINK THIS IS A LITTLE UNBALANCED, DUH!

You are a classic troll.

[Epaminondas]

Perhaps I am just getting lucky, but I've seen the Hunter of Heroes at least three times, and I killed him easily all three times with different types of Commanders. (I have yet to see the other scary Horrors that people talk about.) In fact, my Niefel Jarl with an Unequaled Obesity with the Summit one-shotted him. The other two times Pathos with the medusa shield got him, and an Oreiad with the Astral spell spamming artifact also got him. No humongous or flying body guards necessary. The unifying factor for all three commanders was that they all had very high, close to 30-ish MR.

[Gregstrom]

A massive Defence score probably helps a little, too.

[TwoBits]

I just don't see what the big deal is. The only time I've ever faced one of the uber Doom Horrors was when I cast a global with Astral Corruption up (as an underwater race, with excellent bodyguards - so I survived, barely).

In another game once, I had an Elemental King repeatedly nailed by Horror Mark (7 or 8 times, at least), and over the course of the next 30-40 turns, was attacked by a grand total of one, ONE, regular Horror - and that was it! No Hunter of Heroes, no Doom Horrors, nothing. Made me regret all the paranoid precautions I took that hampered a fully useful deployment, and all for no good reason.

Which makes me believe that you need an insane level of horror marking before you can expect regular visits by Kurgi, the Swallower of Souls, the Devourer of Eyeballs (OK, I'm making these names up at this point, because, well, I've only ever seen that one guy, in that one game, in all this time of playing, and I've forgotten his name already!), etc..

AC is a whole 'nother ball of wax. But if you allow your Pretender, or other prized unit, to become sooo badly horror marked that he's a Doom Horror magnet, then you deserve everything you get, IMO.

[K]

I just don't see what the big deal is. The only time I've ever faced one of the uber Doom Horrors was when I cast a global with Astral Corruption up (as an underwater race, with excellent bodyguards - so I survived, barely).

In another game once, I had an Elemental King repeatedly nailed by Horror Mark (7 or 8 times, at least), and over the course of the next 30-40 turns, was attacked by a grand total of one, ONE, regular Horror - and that was it! No Hunter of Heroes, no Doom Horrors, nothing. Made me regret all the paranoid precautions I took that hampered a fully useful deployment, and all for no good reason.

Which makes me believe that you need an insane level of horror marking before you can expect regular visits by Kurgi, the Swallower of Souls, the Devourer of Eyeballs (OK, I'm making these names up at this point, because, well, I've only ever seen that one guy, in that one game, in all this time of playing, and I've forgotten his name already!), etc..

AC is a whole 'nother ball of wax. But if you allow your Pretender, or other prized unit, to become sooo badly horror marked that he's a Doom Horror magnet, then you deserve everything you get, IMO.

When Astral Corruption is up, there is a chance of the Send Horror spell actually sending a Doom Horror.

That being said, there are a number of Horror-based strategies where someone would unintentionally become HMed.

[Alderanas]

try putting a meat shield of arhcers that wont move forward to attack the horror and then surround them with other soldiers.

[MaxWilson]

What's truly terrible about the horror marks is that every time the pretender or mage is attacked by a horror then most horrors have an attack which add additional horror_mark levels!! Its those astral claws.
There's no chance of hope or healing those horror marks... even the spell of WISH will not work.

Well, kind of. With enough pearls you can Wish yourself a replacement pretender, Gift of Reason him, and Empower his magic levels up to whatever level. :) Plus, then you no longer lose hit points and MR and enemy Dominion, unless you prophetize your new "pretender."

Yeah, I know, not very cost-effective. But if MY liege lord got horror-marked badly enough I would overthrow him.

-Max

[Tifone]

...the Devourer of Eyeballs...

Damn, we totally need a Doomie with this name :shock:

-

Totally unrequested opinion - I totally love the whole Horrors thing.
Totally.

[chrispedersen]

...the Devourer of Eyeballs...

Damn, we totally need a Doomie with this name :shock:

-

Totally unrequested opinion - I totally love the whole Horrors thing.
Totally.

I actually have such a unit, and such a commander in my Yomi mod...

[HoneyBadger]

Let's see...new doom horror names...

The Doom-Banger
The Skull Emulsifier
The Pain Dimension
It Who Must Not Be Described
Whuppass, Juicer of Worlds
Hell's Garden Service
10-Pin Nation-Bowler
The 9 eyed, 9 horned, Shiny Happy People Eater

[Herode]

Hmmm... The Cindesuckerella One ?

Hooooooooooooooooooo, yes, I confess : I love Horrors :angel

[Tifone]

Hooooooooooooooooooo, yes, I confess : I love Horrors :angel

Yeah! Me too! Think, my ex-gf was called the Maker of Ruins. That's what she made of our relationship :D

[markmayhugh]

I am unsure why this thread is so long. If I understand correctly:

If

1. the Pretender scripts Returning
2. and has two astral gems on hand
3. and is not at his home province (so keep him elsewhere)

Then

as defender he gets to cast Returning first, and no horror (or any other assassination attempt) can touch him under any circumstances. So no death, additional horror marks, or any other negative consequence. There is the one turn penalty of having to move back out of the home province next turn, after restocking Astral gems.

Is this correct? If so, then problem solved, so I can't understand why one would worry about bodyguards or any other less effective method of protection or evasion. If not, can someone enlighten me?

[thejeff]

Well, it does mean you can't use him on the battlefield: scripted Returning isn't very helpful in battle.

Though your solution is fine if you just want him casting rituals/forging etc.
In fact, it's even easier. IIRC, special battles, like assassinations & horror attacks take place in a special province, so Returning works even if you leave him at home.

[vfb]

You can get attacked by horrors more than once in the same month, if AC is up and you are horror marked or are in the HoF, and you cast/forge non-blood.

But most of the time if you are forging/casting rituals, and you god/mage has astral, it's safe to script returning. That's what I do usually, because you never know when something really nasty will show up.

[NTJedi]

I am unsure why this thread is so long.

This is a very old thread you unburried... there's plenty of very long threads which are dead.



If I understand correctly:

If

1. the Pretender scripts Returning
2. and has two astral gems on hand
3. and is not at his home province (so keep him elsewhere)

Then

as defender he gets to cast Returning first, and no horror (or any other assassination attempt) can touch him under any circumstances. So no death, additional horror marks, or any other negative consequence. There is the one turn penalty of having to move back out of the home province next turn, after restocking Astral gems.

Is this correct? If so, then problem solved, so I can't understand why one would worry about bodyguards or any other less effective method of protection or evasion. If not, can someone enlighten me?

Your suggestion works if the pretender has astral magic... not all pretenders will have astral. Second problem is your suggestion permanently prevents the pretender from being available for any battle on the map or even on the border for pushing dominion.

[Illuminated One]

Can someone confirm the part about always being able to return from assasinations/horrors?
How much time did I loose just by moving my pretenders away from the cap for that reason only.

[Agema]

You did the right thing, I think: you can cast returning from assassinations and horrors, but you have to be away from the home province.

If your pretender has astral or air, if you wanted to Dom push or something, you could move him out with teleport or cloud trapeze, and hope he lasts a while before there's an attack that he returns from. Although if the god was unable to defeat likely attackers, planning to replace him (empowering a mage, building temples) in some way might be a cheaper alternative than perpetually spending gems dodging bullets.

Assassins and assassin spells can be effectively neutralised with extra commanders as chaff, assassins can be removed by heavy patrolling/PD, and spells by shields.

[MaxWilson]

Why do you need to cast returning? Unless it's a human-sized pretender, Ritual of Returning should be good enough, and still lets you participate in battles.

Even a Doom Horror isn't going to kill a Titan or a Cyclops in one hit. And he's a pretender (Morale 30), so you don't need to worry about him catching Fear and running away to his death.

-Max

[thejeff]

Actually the Doom Horrors are likely to kill most pretenders in one hit.
Many of them have multiple instant death attacks.
Even without that, there are also the horror mark boosting attacks just to increase the chance you'll die soon.

But it might be worth risking for a major battle.

[fictionfan]

After all this talk about horrors I feel like making a strategy with them.

Here is a funny Idea. Imagine The kingly ones and astral corruption being used at the same time.

[Slobby]

I love horrors :)

[chrispedersen]

Should Horror Mark end the game?

If your god gets a horror mark he/she is doomed! They will die again and again while getting weaker and weaker!

I don't mind losing high power magic users, but a pretenter god (main character in the game) should have some defence, otherwize it's game over!

You know, there is nothing that says you actually have to bring hm back. He's perfectly safe in the nether world. Don't Call God.

[Benjamin]

Watchers are great against horrors if no one else has mentioned it yet. I think they're nearly perfect accuracy at the range horrors start out on during attacks, and they do a pile of AN damage.

Anyhow,they'll even take out some of the doom horrors if you get lucky. I think I beat Kurgi and the scarab guy (ruin something) with watchers. Watchers or scorpion men. Got lucky on the scarab because I crippled him on the opening salvo.

[Poopsi]

Watchers are great against horrors if no one else has mentioned it yet. I think they're nearly perfect accuracy at the range horrors start out on during attacks, and they do a pile of AN damage.

Anyhow,they'll even take out some of the doom horrors if you get lucky. I think I beat Kurgi and the scarab guy (ruin something) with watchers. Watchers or scorpion men. Got lucky on the scarab because I crippled him on the opening salvo.

The Maker of Ruins, I think. That one was one nasty SOB.