Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[General_Jah]

I'm in my 2nd game and playing Caelum becaues the scenario said they were very hard... and boy was it right.

My first game I randomed Hellheim and felt it was a bit to easy once I got my army rolling....

Now I'm having to fight a war with Hellheim as Caelum and Vanheim to boot!

Is it just me or are their armies just WAY to strong... not only do they all have mirrior images but their defense is through the roof. When I played them I could very easily amass their calvary and waste anything even when out numbered.

They just seem really imbalanced here... What am I missing? I realize Caelum may just be a hard nation to play but the other computer controlled nations seem to just be getting rolled by them *** well.

What do you guys think?

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Covenant]

Another problem with MP is that people can ally against you. Since everyone knows the Vanir factions are incredibly powerful unless you use specialized tactics, people are more likely to ally up to defend against an aggressive 'heim expansionist.

If they can be contained long enough to get you a resource base to recruit mages from and enough AoE spells to make it possible to combat them unglamoured then they become much more fair. Like early-age Elephant Rushes against people like Ulm, sometimes the foe you're facing is just incredibly difficult for you to battle. The 'heims fit there.

They should definatly have the balance tweaked a little, since diplomacy should not substitute actual game balance, but what's more of a pressing concern is bringing weaker forces up to the same level as most people than bringing the few super sides down a notch.

As Caelum, you should have access to good mages and good arrows. A successful arrow hit will dispel a glamour. Also, use your Mammoths. Trampling works very well against Glamour in my experience, though I don't know if they take damage on the trample, they do seem to lose guys just as easily that way. At the very least they start losing their glamour shields, and other guys can come in to help out.

Am I right about that? I'm just remembering my hordes of Trogs swarming over the 'heims as being pretty effective.

[Reay]

Successful arrow hits dispel glamour? I thought they had to damage the unit to dispel glamour? Even if the arrow hits it might hit the shield or the units protection might be high, especially if they are earth blessed.

Tramples with Mammoths can get rid of glamour but you are only likely to cause 1 damage since their defense is so high.

So other than area affect spells what can work against Helherdlings?

[Velusion]

Reay said:
So other than area affect spells what can work against Helherdlings?



Running away? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Velusion]

FrankTrollman said:
But Helheim doesn't seem to have an amazingly good record in multiplayer so I doubt that they are too strong.
-Frank



I do have to point out this line of reasoning isn't going to work if everyone simply gangs up on them like I've seen in many games.

I think the biggest gripe is that they are pretty invincible in the early stages of the game. There is very little you can do about an uberblessed hel/vanheim nation that rushes you out of the gate, which is frustrating.

Once the bigger AoE spells start to get researched things start to even out it would appear.

[Saxon]

Frank is right, a lot of people have raised the concern that these nations are too strong. Have a search for the topic about a month back, as it has some really good ideas on how to fight them and win. There was no consensus on the forum (not that there ever is!) but rest assured that a lot of people share your concern.

As stated, in single player, these two nations tend to hammer the other AI nations. This makes them bigger, richer and stronger, so you tend to see their power more in single player. I often turn them off in the game set up phase, as I got tired of facing them at the end of every single player game, but that is just me.

Many “fixes” were proposed and attacked, but the idea of increasing their cost a little bit did seem to get a fair bit of support.

[General_Jah]

Velusion said:

Reay said:
So other than area affect spells what can work against Helherdlings?



Running away? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



lol seriously!

Any tips for me as Caelum in countering Hellheim other than mass elephants? I tried massing thunderstorm through my lvl 4 air casters but frankly they dont seem to be enough to stop a 200-300 unit computer army. I just lost 2 decisive battles and a good chunk of my territory so I believe this game is over for me but I would like to know what to do in the future.

On a somewhat side note, so far in my two game experiences magic has not played a big role... Spells seem to take a lot of work to get to and dont really make the trouble worhtwhile from a damage standpoint....

I mean I had roughly 5 lvl 4 air casters using thunderstorm vs hellheim and though it defintely damaged them, I was not able to win the battle. They outnumbered me 2:1 from a troop standpoint. Had I used the 2000 resources for 16 elephants it might have been a different story...

Perhaps casters are only good late game and I just rushed to them real early.. i dont know... my strategy was to crank out non stop my eagle kings so i could cruise around nuking armies but it didn't work out when I started running into these huge 200-300 unit armies, especially when they were controlled by Hellheim and Vanheim

please some tips vs these nations! btw this ie EA

[DrPraetorious]

200-300 units? That's a lot of vanir.

Air spells are not great for damage output. Thunderstrike is nice, but yeah, it isn't going to be decisive. If you want decisive impact from zaps, you want fire or water.

If you want good use out of your air magic - go into alteration. Wind Guide makes a *huge* difference in the effectiveness of your archers - they hit roughly twice as often, in my experience. Of course, you only need that once per army.

Phantasmal Army is also a great spell. If you can get ten guys to cast that (which you should, if you're facing up against 200-300 helhirdlings), that's a whopping 250 guys. They're not great units individually, but they can pin the helhirdlings down (especially with no fire bless) while your real units pepper them with wind-guided arrows.

Other than that, the evocation that really shines against glamour armies is freezing mist. You don't care much about the damage that it deals, but it pops their glamour. You may need to put water-boosting items on your guys before they can cast it, though.

Magic has to be used situationally - if you're not familiar with the magic list, it can seem pretty useless. Unlike in dom2, you don't just grab a bunch of guys and tell them to hurl lightning bolt - you can still do that, but in dom3 it generally isn't cost effective (but it depends on who you are fighting.)

If you can get science fiction levels of magic, note that many of your units are lightning immune. If you switch to an entire army of Storm Guard, and give a few of your eagle kings a stack of air gems each, they can shoot shimmering fields, which is a spell that really will kill an entire army of Vanir all by itself.

[Beorne]

FrankTrollman said:
It's not just you, lots of people have problems with Helheim. But Helheim doesn't seem to have an amazingly good record in multiplayer so I doubt that they are too strong.




Yes, I agree. In our group games Helheim and Van have a very low victory scores. Maybe it's cause they are forbidden because they are too strong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yes, van and Helheim are way unbalanced, lot of people is awaiting a serious nerf.

[Teraswaerto]

I think something people will often overlook is that Helheim and Vanheim don't just have very powerful units, but they also have the best stealth abilities in the game. Better than Pangaea, which is supposed to be the great stealth nation.

It's not necessary to use that power when you can dominate the battlefield, but it's there, and having some extra special strategy cooked up that can beat an army of Vanir will help only if they all gather up into a nice bunch for you to kill.

[KissBlade]

Only their sacreds really. Come early mid game, a good Helheim player at war with you will literally be all over your empire except where your main army is. Standard anti raiding squads won't work because Helheim raiders crushes them. You can tell you're fighting a good helheim when your chokepoints simply don't work. Between flying Dis + Valk raiders with stealthy helherdlings, it's a toughie for most nations. Especially if research is kept at standard pace. Evocation spells DO work, but as the above poster, the harder part is actually catching them in the act. Caelum is actually pretty strong, lightning bolt => thunder strike is a legitimate counter against Helheim as well as your standard mammoth/wingless group to hold them off.

Judging from your dismissal of magic though, that is probably why you're having trouble. As numerous people pointed out in this thread, magic plays a very large part of this game. In fact, the reason you're probably having a tough time is because you're dismissing it so easily. Especially because Caelum is a magic nation!

[lch]

General_Jah said:
Perhaps casters are only good late game and I just rushed to them real early.. i dont know... my strategy was to crank out non stop my eagle kings so i could cruise around nuking armies but it didn't work out when I started running into these huge 200-300 unit armies, especially when they were controlled by Hellheim and Vanheim


A-Ha! Please don't forget that the AI gets more money and resources in higher AI levels than normal. If you're fighting a hard or impossible AI, then no wonder that he can spam Helhirdings and Vans and run you over with those. A MP gamer would not be able to do that. Recruiting Helhirdings is the only option for Helheim, though, as all the other units are merely chaff...


KissBlade said:
Between flying Dis + Valk raiders with sailing helherdlings, it's a toughie for most nations.


Helheim doesn't sail!?

[mathusalem]

Helheim doesn't sail http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[KissBlade]

Oops, yes I meant STEALTHY XD. Mind bargled.

[Sombre]

Aren't these overpowered nations somewhat toned down in the Conceptual Balance Mod?

[Morkilus]

Their cost was increased. The veteran players don't seem to think it's a problem. In my Helheim MP game, I was able to expand pretty quickly, but the Helhirdings are quite the liability because of their cost when having to face the right kind of army: in this case, a huge number of Wind Guided Warrior Maidens. The hail of arrows is usually enough to pop the glamour, and then the Helhirdings fall as fast as any other heavy cavalry. I've pretty much decided they aren't that great as a regular troop; you're better off just using them against indies and as raiders as KissBlade suggested.

[General_Jah]

DrPraetorious said:
200-300 units? That's a lot of vanir.

Air spells are not great for damage output. Thunderstrike is nice, but yeah, it isn't going to be decisive. If you want decisive impact from zaps, you want fire or water.

If you want good use out of your air magic - go into alteration. Wind Guide makes a *huge* difference in the effectiveness of your archers - they hit roughly twice as often, in my experience. Of course, you only need that once per army.

Phantasmal Army is also a great spell. If you can get ten guys to cast that (which you should, if you're facing up against 200-300 helhirdlings), that's a whopping 250 guys. They're not great units individually, but they can pin the helhirdlings down (especially with no fire bless) while your real units pepper them with wind-guided arrows.

Other than that, the evocation that really shines against glamour armies is freezing mist. You don't care much about the damage that it deals, but it pops their glamour. You may need to put water-boosting items on your guys before they can cast it, though.

Magic has to be used situationally - if you're not familiar with the magic list, it can seem pretty useless. Unlike in dom2, you don't just grab a bunch of guys and tell them to hurl lightning bolt - you can still do that, but in dom3 it generally isn't cost effective (but it depends on who you are fighting.)

If you can get science fiction levels of magic, note that many of your units are lightning immune. If you switch to an entire army of Storm Guard, and give a few of your eagle kings a stack of air gems each, they can shoot shimmering fields, which is a spell that really will kill an entire army of Vanir all by itself.



thanks for the advice with the archers, I will try that... BUT in my experience archers just dont do much damage due to the fact heavily armored troops can shrug off their arrows with ease... Almost all of Hellheims troops have pretty good armor

Do you find archers are useful even against more heavily armored foes?

[Maltrease]

Thunderstrike should be very effective. You just need lots of chaff. Try something like Aim (or better windguide) then Thunderstrike x 3 and retreat. Spread enough chaff around to delay his troops. If you are blasting Helherding ranks you are popping 100 gold per thunderstrike hit. As long as your Eagle Kings survive you can throw away 20-30-40 archers (2-400 gold) you will do far more damage.

[KissBlade]

I should point out another reason Helheim was considered overpowered before was because of the recruitment bug.

[Saxon]

KissBlade,

Sorry, I missed the recruitment bug and am strangely unwilling to go exploring in the bug thread. Can you give us a line or two on what that problem is/was? Did it get cleaned up in the last patch?

Cheers!

[KissBlade]

It was cleaned up after the first patch where the majority of Helheim's overpoweredness shone through. Essentially Helherdlings were not capital only.

[Beorne]

This mean that now Hel and Van are balanced? And that the dev will not do anything to tune them down? Bad ...

[Edi]

Beorne said:
This mean that now Hel and Van are balanced? And that the dev will not do anything to tune them down? Bad ...


There is only so much you can do without completely breaking the thematics of those nations. Unfortunately, in SP they tend to become monsters since the AI is not properly equipped to handle a mass of glamoured medium-high to high defense unit armies.

I don't know what the perfect solution is, but there is a big distinction between balancing and overnerfing and it's a very fine line to walk.

Edi

[Yrkoon]

I've had to fight helheim/vanheim in a few games and yes they are extremely strong. Not unbeatable though.

In one game, I played as Niefleheim (the giants). I had a big army of high end giants (the ones with the longswords and shield + mail armor) vs an army of vanheim (cavalry + infantry, all glamour) and lost : my giants couldn't hit vanheim because of their high defense and although my giants resisted well, in the end, they lost.
So I changed tactics : I put a few sacred giants (the ones with frost aura) in my army of giants and put everyone on hold and attack. Next battle, the cavalry arrives first on my line of giants. The giants, with their relatively high defense, take very few hits from the cavalry charge and hold the cavalry. The long battle starts, like the battle I first lost. But this time, the frost aura of the giants is there. Basically, the combat took a long time and the aura froze the cavalry and the glamour infantry that came behind and my giants did a killing. I eradicated the vanheim army and lost very few giants.
That tactic of high defense troops + aura vs vanheim/helheim is of course limited to a few nation.

Otherwise, something that works very well too, and is quite cheap, is N1 mages with high defense troops: the N1 mages are scripted to cast eagle eye then tangle vines x4. Eagle eyes increases their precision, and tangle vines (area 1, so at least 2 cavalries) halve the defense of the vanheim troops . With eagle eyes, they almost always hit the first row off enemy troops, so your units can slaughter them very quickly.
I prefer tangles vines to vine arrow because it's area effect 1 (vine arrow is 1 unit), no save roll (vine arrow has to hit), lvl 1 spell (vine arrow is lvl 3) so it's available very early in the game and very effective.

[Saxon]

Yrkoon,

Nice use of Tangle Vines, I didn’t know about the defense cutting in half effect. It explains how I once killed an enemy dragon that was trying to route. Held down and defense in half, it was my PD that killed them!

Nature One is also pretty easy to get, especially on independents, so it is open to most nations. I agree that Vine Arrow is not as good, but if you give plain commanders the vine arrow bow and add it to the Tangle Vines, it adds up.

KissBlade,

Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense.

[Yrkoon]

Saxon,

routing units also get a -4 penalty to defense, so with the vines on top of that, that dragon must have been very very easy to hit.

As for helheim/vanheim, anything that reduces their defense is good too. I think earth meld does it. Numbness does it to for sure (-3 def, -3 att). There must be more spells that would work as well.

But tangle vines is really great and easy to 1) research and 2) find casters to use it

[Beorne]

There is only so much you can do without completely breaking the thematics of those nations.



I think that rising cost or lowering def has very few thematic considerations ...

The fact I so stubbornly want to nerf Van is they were my favourite Nation, and now they are out from our games bacause unbalance.

[Edi]

I wouldn't mind a slight downawrd adjustment of their defense. It could also be justified by the Van not needing to train so much because their glamour gives them an unfair advantage over mortals and a consequent dose of arrogance.

Whether the devs agree with that is a different matter.

Edi

[KissBlade]

Beorne said:


There is only so much you can do without completely breaking the thematics of those nations.



I think that rising cost or lowering def has very few thematic considerations ...

The fact I so stubbornly want to nerf Van is they were my favourite Nation, and now they are out from our games bacause unbalance.



Van isn't that bad actually. There's been rare complaints about Van, and only in blitz usually.

Helheim/Niefelheim are usually the problem ones. Van just got lumped with them.

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
Aren't these overpowered nations somewhat toned down in the Conceptual Balance Mod?

Yes they are, and in a very simple way that I don't see why Illwinter would find unthematic. Simply upped costs for glamour troops, and in the case of Helhiem capital only svartalfs.

[Morkilus]

quantum_mechani said:

Sombre said:
Aren't these overpowered nations somewhat toned down in the Conceptual Balance Mod?

Yes they are, and in a very simple way that I don't see why Illwinter would find unthematic. Simply upped costs for glamour troops, and in the case of Helhiem capital only svartalfs.



Also, resource cost of Light Weight Scale Mail was almost doubled, which hits the Hangadrotts at least.

[General_Jah]

Maltrease said:
Thunderstrike should be very effective. You just need lots of chaff. Try something like Aim (or better windguide) then Thunderstrike x 3 and retreat. Spread enough chaff around to delay his troops. If you are blasting Helherding ranks you are popping 100 gold per thunderstrike hit. As long as your Eagle Kings survive you can throw away 20-30-40 archers (2-400 gold) you will do far more damage.



retreating with hit and run is actually something I have not tried much of at all...

could someone point out to me the strengths of doing this and perhaps some techniques...

is it very effective overall?

thanks!

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that no matter what changes are made, there will be "not allowed in my groups games". But I consider it more based on "my groups games". If a group primarily plays one type of game (map size, game settings, number of players, victory conditions) then there will always be something that hits hard in that type of game. Therefore it gets left put bt people who play that type of game over and over and over.

But it shouldnt be balanced for that game. If it was then it would become imbalanced for other groups playing other games.

[Beorne]

FrankTrollman said:
The problem is that the Van aren't banned from your games because of unbalance. They are banned from your play group's games because of the perception of unbalance. Your particular gaming group is... very idiosyncratic. They do a lot of things that I don't agree with or understand.

So really, it doesn't matter whether the Vanir are balanced or not, they'll never be allowed in your games because the people in your group made a decision that they are overpowered and now no longer even consent to play against them.

Anti-Vanir tactics could be invented tomorrow that made the faction rank near the bottom and your group would still have them on the banned list. That's the joy of predjudice: it doesn't matter whether there's any reality to the opinion or not - the fact that further inquisition is refused on the subject means that the opinions can literally never change.

---

So yeah, Vanheim is good, but it's banned in your play group and it will never stop being banned in your play-group. And that doesn't have anything to do with anything that Johan did or will do in the future. Indeed, attempting to please your group on this subject is obviously a waste of Johan's time because the only way Vanheim could come off the banned list for your games is if it was shown to not be overpowered. And that requires playing against it, which you won't do!

-Frank



I think is not useful arguing about thre discrepancies between perception and inner truth, you know it's ALL about perception in every aspect of life. If you try hard you can find inner truth in religion, or perhaps in love. We're talking about DomIII.
We made up our decision (and I, who am the host, have a big influence in the process) after a set of games vs van. Not because prejudice (van/hel is among our favored nation) but because unbalance. I can assure you that a little cost increase and/or defence reduction would please me and re-open van/hel nations.
I don't think that any nation should need a so hardly customized "anti" tactics, it ruines my games. I prefer to developing a tematic nation rather an anti -heim nation. I like so. But there is a previous big thread full off better explained reasons by better english language people explaining Van overpower.
Btw, in the previous thread it seemed that all people (excluding two, at most) was in agree that Van was overpowered, and every once in a while this subject shows up.
So, what's your problem? You win with Van with you friends? I don't understand .... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kuritza]

Same applies to middle age vanheim, by the way. They have same dual-blessable sacreds, which completely decimate any PD and cannot be caught. Throw in commanders which can reach defence 30 - in my test games, three dual-blessed van commanders with some simple items crafted with construction level 4 were killing a fully equipped Sea King troll SC (without casualties, of course).

Lightining doesnt kill vans, frozen heart is a lvl6 spell and it doesnt kill vans too unless you use powerful mages.
On top of it einheres are one of the strongest infantry units in the middle age.
I simply dont know how to stop a dual-blessed vanheim, it's got no weaknesses. I'd suggest giving non-commander vans 10 hitpoints and removing glamour defense bonus (mirror image is enough, really).

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont think the numbers are quite that unanimous (not that it would matter even if it were). And in case you didnt, put me in that othr group

I think that threads like this collect people who agree with it so I wouldnt measure the responses that way. Plus you can always write off new players (no offense meant to anyone) but it seems that every nation they try during the learning curve ends up striking them as a problem because the balance is in the next nation they try.

Remember that in this game, the balance isnt between each nation. Its more of a rock-paper-scissors balance. As long as there is a nation which can beat a nation, then there is balance. We might not like it but it aint broke.

[Kuritza]

To be honest, new players dont find Vanheim that evil. In our community, we have quite some newcomers who keep advising 'its ok, just build more heavy infantry' or 'use mages'. Its old players who started with Dominions 1 think that dual-blessed vanheim is the most scary nation there is at the moment. Myself included.
As for the rock-paper-scissors - to be honest, I am yet to find a nation that doesnt have problems with Vanheim. Even if there is one, its one out of how many? Something's wrong with it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Most of the "problems" with Vanheim seem to be problems going head to head. Most of the answers to it seem to be defense, magic, stealth, etc. If the same tactics are being used then there will always be a "usually wins". I wouldnt want all nations to be balanced to where army-vs-army is the designing factor. The nations I most like to play do their "balancing" by using othr tactics than just my army is bigger than your army.

[Meglobob]

Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

Its all been discussed before and its always players who are fairly new to the game who complain. Look on defeating those nations as a challenge.

Neither nation has come anywhere near winning any MP I have played in and I have played alot. Those games are on 15 prov/player maps. Small 1 on 1 blitz games is a different story and Vanheim/Hellheim walk over most other nations but I do not play those so no problem for me.

[lch]

I think the issue here is that unexperienced people suffer extraordinary defeats compared to normal combat unless they develop and use "anti" tactics as somebody said (even if in some cases, it's just: "use magic"), instead of being able to just use a naive "My army is bigger than your army" assessment of the situation like they normally use to do. I don't want to generalize and say that everybody who says that Vans/Hels are unbalanced (hello? earth/nature bless Niefel? Ermor?) is an unexperienced newb, but that's the conclusion that they usually come to and they get exited about here on the forums.

[thejeff]

Except of course double blessed Van troops, or worse Hellheim, are also undetectable stealthy raiders. Small groups of them can trash much more expensive armies and then either disappear or join together to beat more serious forces.

I'm suspicious of claims that it must be balanced because there are so many options that something must work.

Of course the heims can be beaten. In early game, by other uber-bless nations or maybe SC pretenders, or more likely alliances. Late game they're not so strong, unless they got enough advantage from early victories.

I'm not sure "can be stopped by 2-3 enemies after wiping out the nearest neighbors" counts as balanced.
But maybe I haven't played enough multiplayer.

[Kuritza]

Once again. I'm not an unexperienced player. I have played Domionions 1 and Dominions 2, some blitzes and pbem games in Dominions 3, some of these won. I know how to use magic etc, BUT:

In one of the games I play atm I have to face a e9/w9 vanheim as a MA Tien Chi. He rummages through my provinces and I cannot do much against him. Lightning bolt doesnt kill his units, falling frost is entirely useless because of defense check, gifts from heaven arent reliable against small and fast armies (not to mention I cant send my mages with crafted boots to all provinces he may or may not attack), frozen heart is not researched yet but even that is only useful with my capitol-only mages because vans have +3 hit points, my regular troops are scattering like dust without doing any damage. I have three SK Sea King trolls who can kill any amount of such vans (did some tests), but two or three vanjarls with simple equipment can kill him with 100% decree of success.

Gandalf, you say I shouldnt go head to head? Sorry, couldnt you elaborate how should I survive his raiding then? Not going head to head with Vanheim means playing on his own field - I wont outraid him, you cant raid better than 2-blessed Vanheim. Oh, before you mention it, there are two or three consorts in each of his provinces. Yet my income keeps dwindling while his stays the same thanks to the raiding.
Vanheim dies easily in late game? I beg to differ, he STILL has vastly superior troops and magic that matches my own (air 3, earth 3).

[Gandalf Parker]

Try playing larger maps, fewer AIs, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

[Teraswaerto]

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.




I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

[Kuritza]

Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.

[Meglobob]

Teraswaerto said:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.




I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.



Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

[BigDisAwesome]

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.



Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.

[Gandalf Parker]

Kuritza said:
Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.



Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.

[thejeff]

Except that they tend to get ganged up, since they're perceived as unbalanced.

And given the perception of early game strength and late game weakness, I'm not certain, as I said above, that a nation that bumps off 2-3 neighbors and then is brought down when its strengths no longer apply is really balanced.

Finally, and somewhat tongue in cheek, that's not a statistically significant sample. Given the number of nations, even if Vanheim was twice as likely to win as any other nation, the observed distribution would not be unlikely.

[Meglobob]

BigDisAwesome said:

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.



Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.



T'ien Ch'i in a EA game took out Helheim pretty much 1 on 1 and Helheim was played by a very, very good player but so was T'ien Ch'i...

I believe Atlantis in EA can eat Hellheim and Vanheim for breakfast, played correctly. Also EA Caelum can eat Hellheim/Vanheim for a midday snack played correctly. Also heavily blessed Mictlan nation can stand upto them (which how everyone usually plays Mictlan) and Nelfelheim, Abysia can also stomp Hellheim/Vanheim. So where's the balance problem?

Hellheim/Vanheim really are SOOOO overrated its untrue.

[calmon]

Meglobob said:

Teraswaerto said:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.




I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.



Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.



Sorry but this states says who win the game but not how! It says nothing about alliances of several players to defeat one nation or equal things.

I never played vanheim/helheim in a mp game but i've some good tactics in mind with the glamour stealth troops. In my mp games i've defeated vanheim twice but the players used the vans as a simple (very strong) combat unit. They missed the point that this things are the best national stealth troops.

[Gandalf Parker]

thejeff said:
Except that they tend to get ganged up, since they're perceived as unbalanced.

And given the perception of early game strength and late game weakness, I'm not certain, as I said above, that a nation that bumps off 2-3 neighbors and then is brought down when its strengths no longer apply is really balanced.

Finally, and somewhat tongue in cheek, that's not a statistically significant sample. Given the number of nations, even if Vanheim was twice as likely to win as any other nation, the observed distribution would not be unlikely.


Again, if it was always one then it would be a balance problem. But I see the same situation plagueing other nations. Advanced players tend to know what maps and victory conditions mean everyone-gang-up-on Ermor, Ulm, Rylieh, Arcos, Ctis, etc etc.

No matter what map size or victory condition or game settings, if its always the same then there will ALWAYS be someone that has an advantage and must be taken out first. Venheim seems to be it for small maps (not tiny ones) and about 4 players. A blitz game. In a game like that, if someone takes Vanheim then hit them first. Dont try to get it changed so that Vanheim is ruined in all the other games (and you simply end up with a new nation who is usually a problem)

[Gandalf Parker]

Meglobob said:

BigDisAwesome said:

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.



Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.



T'ien Ch'i in a EA game took out Helheim pretty much 1 on 1 and Helheim was played by a very, very good player but so was T'ien Ch'i...

I believe Atlantis in EA can eat Hellheim and Vanheim for breakfast, played correctly. Also EA Caelum can eat Hellheim/Vanheim for a midday snack played correctly. Also heavily blessed Mictlan nation can stand upto them (which how everyone usually plays Mictlan) and Nelfelheim, Abysia can also stomp Hellheim/Vanheim. So where's the balance problem?

Hellheim/Vanheim really are SOOOO overrated its untrue.



I think part of it is that Vanheim's abilities make it easy to make use of them without having to play Vanheim well. The fact that it can be beaten by people playing the others well actually seems to be part of the complaint from what Ive seen. That is an imballance apparently. That it takes a good Tien Chi player to beat a bad Vanheim player.

But I agree. I have always felt that anyone playing the right nation for them will do well.

[Kuritza]

Gandalf Parker said:Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.


It doesnt work like that. I cant set up a multiplayer game like 'you choose Pangaea and go guerilla to prevent Vanheim from eating too many provinces'.

Our map was large, and we had 10 players in the beginning -a big game. Now there are four less players, and nobody gangs Vanheim so I can perceive these 2x blessed raiders in their prime.
Btw, Pangaea in hit'n'run mode was rushed by the apes, Caelum was raided by said Vanheim while warring against Ulm, and is soon to be killed by Rlyeh, Abyssia was destroyed by Vanheim in the very beginning and is now supplying him with fire gems. So... I still fail to see how big games make Vanheim any more 'balanced' unless all players are experienced enough to gang him first.
As for the imbalance treads - no, SCs arent imbalanced because 1) they can be countered rather easily 2) all nations can have them. For example, 2-x bless Vanheim can counter MY sc's just be giving 2-3 commanders 2-3 easily craftable items and setting them to attack. I checked it in a test game - works like a charm. Defense 30, mirror image, AP weapon, water bless quickness. He cant hit them, they kill him in two rounds.

As for the statistics... It just proves some of the arguments mentioned here. Like, people tend to gang the strongest nations first. Pythium, Ermor, Vanheim are such nations. Ulm is perhaps the weakest, and ironically, thats why people often ignore them until they can drown everyone in their knights and infantry, backing them up by indie mages, golems and the like. Such thing will most likely happen in our current game btw - its turn 35, I am gonna be exhausted even if I defeat Vanheim so Ulm will get all the spoils of at. He will claim enough victory points to win, unless Rlyeh backstabs him with his amassed Ctulhus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

P.S.
I'm absolutely fine with some imbalances in this game - if anything they make Dominions 3 more fun and add depth to the game world. But vans are just too much, everything got its limits.

[Gandalf Parker]

That all sounds good to me. Im still not convinced of something needing fixed. The devs might decide to tweak it abit but I dont see it as broken.

[Kuritza]

Sorry, what sounds good? Uncounterable raiders? Recruitable commanders who kill SCs made on lvl6+ summon chassis? Units so powerful that national troops (and many spells) are useless against them? Not units of some magically weak nation like Ulm, but units of a nation with top-notch mages.
I fail to understand this logic.

[thejeff]

Thoughts on your SCs.

Sea Kings aren't particularly great SCs, but if they're what you've got to work with.

Try area affect attacks. Defense shields.
Definitely fire resistance. He'll still hit, but the 6ap won't work.
Eye shield. Fire shield. Vine shield to reduce his defense.
Any damage will break the mirror image.
Snake bladders, make your SC poison immune first. (I don't know if poison gets rid of the mirror image.)


Sea trolls have horrid Attack and Defense, so I'm not sure any of that will be enough, but try it out.

[Kuritza]

Thejeff -
My sea kings have:
100% FR
100% CR
100% LR
Vine shield.
Chill aura.
(very nasty combo btw)
Fire brand sword.
Enough rejuvenation to make him not get tired with quickness on.
Attack of 16+ and defense of 20+, not sure about the numbers.
He kills any national troops or summons, but dies to vanheim recruitable commander )))

Btw, try this King setup, it works. Rainbow armor, vine shield, fire brand, dragon helmet, messengers boots, rest up to you. Breath of winter, quickness.

[thejeff]

Then what do the vanjarls do to them?
How are they equipped?

I'd be tempted to try 2 shields. Charcoal & Vine? You're not hitting them anyway.

[Kuritza]

He is hitting very, very hard. Two skill 16 attacks is good enough, especially after cold aura and shield soften the enemy down.
They only need three lvl4 items, one of them is armor piercing weapon. And a dual bless, of course. Regular units go down as grain too...
Something's wrong here in my opinion.

[Gandalf Parker]

Whose domain is the fighting in?
What scales are there?

Your previous posts make it sound as though the nations which could have held up against Vanheim were taken out by other players before they could do any good. That tends to be the way the game plays. It could just as easily have been early defeat of Ermors best enemy, or early defeat of Ulms. Thats the joy of rock-paper-scissors balance. If you take out all of the scissors, you might later regret it.

[Kuritza]

Domain doesnt matter, they kill troll either way in two rounds before morale kicks in. Most SCs wont hit them due to defense 30 and mirror images.

Vanheims neighbours were Abyssia (which he killed immediately), me as Tien Chi (busy fighting first Shinuyama, then Machaka), Caelum (who got ganked) and Ulm who didnt care about Vanheim.
No race should be THAT powerful against all nations but a few - because you cant count on these few races to be his neighbours, or not to be ganked by other players, or simply get rushed/raided to death by Vanheim himself.

[Gandalf Parker]

Then we have a problem with Ermor, and Ctis, and Arcos, and Jotunheim.

[Valandil]

I think that everyone misses an important point. Are eg. helhirdings unbalanced when UNBLESSED? No? Then perhaps the problem is with a combination of F9W9 and High-def glamour troops?

I can't say I've ever noticed losing more quickly to Helheim than anyone else, but I'm so awful that it hardly matters.

Perhaps the following test- One battle with eyes of the void or a mod removing glamour. One battle with no bless. One battle with current stats/abilities. At least we could then determine where the (possible) problem comes from.

[lch]

Valandil said:
I think that everyone misses an important point. Are eg. helhirdings unbalanced when UNBLESSED? No? Then perhaps the problem is with a combination of F9W9 and High-def glamour troops?


So you want to talk about "unbalanced" bless combinations instead, yes?

[StrictlyRockers]

I am playing in my first MP game, and I got Vanheim.

I have never played Vanheim before. So I am reading this thread for advice, and I am also playing a SP game of the scenario and the mod we are using with all of the other players replaced by Impossible AI.

We are using the Dawn of Dominions map. The other players are:
Arcoscephale
Agartha
C'tis
Oceania
Ulm
Sauromatia
Kailasa
Ermor
Vanheim
Caelum
Marverni
Helheim

I am looking for advice on force composition and structure. Should I use lots of small units and spread them out to avoid area of effect damage spells? At four or less units per squad they get a morale penalty, right? So maybe squads of 6-8 bad guy Vanheims per?

Should they charge in right from the start? I think so. I have no missle troops to purchase of any sort. So unless I can recruit some bowmen, I am at a disadvantage at range.

I can't really go into detail about what my pretender looks like. I suppose I could because I don't expect to win this one, and I do want to learn as much as possible from this first MP game.

Does anyone have some viable Vanheim strategies that they could pass on? Thanks! They are greatly appreciated.

[Beorne]

you could play blind, left handed and with a parrot on the shoulder and you'll win. ... joking ...

I really, really don't understand the reason some say Van is not unbalanced. You can say "I've talked to the devs and they said will not make any changes" and that is good. But There is no need of simulations and mp statistics, it is enough to see unit statistics to see the unbalancing. And a nation that needs "very large maps" or specialized anti tactics anti or any deep customization, simply tell that thery are unbalanced.
And Pangea ... I've played Pangea allied with Abysia vs Van (whe were three middle experienced gamers), considering that minos and abysians are between the few ones that can do some harm to van ... no story at all. And the middle games strategies for vand are very easy too, pack your nationals with mechanical men and shot big lightings, and the world is your. There is no easy way to protect yourself from lighting if you're Pangea.
Sorry, I know i'm repeating myself, but I don't understand the position "its slightly umbalanced but does not need corrections". The truth is that is greatly unbalanced and needs some (slight!, I dont' want to ruin it) correction. And no, I'm not saying it's bugged, bugs are other things.

[Kuritza]

Gandalf Parker said:
Then we have a problem with Ermor, and Ctis, and Arcos, and Jotunheim.


Death nations and massed elephants, eh? At least you can kill them with priests, battle magic, massed archers and so on. You can fight them. LA Ermor also has a big 'gank me' sign overhead, its a target number 1 for anyone.
They lack an unkillable multipurpose unit, which is my main concern. Btw, F9W9 blessing isnt the only way - I have seen W9E9 blessing, and it seems like a great idea. Makes vans even harder to kill. What makes vans even more annoying is stupid mages always casting thunder strikes etc at the chaff units. As long as vanheim brings some militia with him or hires PD, mages will happily thunderstrike them, ignoring the real treat. Then your mages get 100 fatique, vans charge and kill your melee units, gg. Seen that many times.

And yes, its a combination of a double 9 blessing and glamour troops with great stats.

[lch]

Kuritza said:
They lack an unkillable multipurpose unit, which is my main concern.


Have you been fighting massed Shadow Vestals before, per chance? Ethereal sacred units with very high base defense. Glamor/Mirror Image goes away after a scratch, the Etherealness stays the whole battle. And don't tell me that you can hope to get rid of them by priests. The Ermorian Principes have an insane base defense, too. Ermor might not be as "unbalanced" as the Heims in the very early game, but undeads isn't everything that they have. In any case, you'll need to develop a counter-strategy to almost any nation and playing stlye, if you like it or not.


Kuritza said:
Btw, F9W9 blessing isnt the only way - I have seen W9E9 blessing, and it seems like a great idea.


Earth/Nature is a good combo, too, try it with Niefelheim, E9N4 or E9N6 for example. You'll be amazed at the results.

[Kuritza]

Lightning bolt kills a vestal. It doesnt kill van.
Try scratching a van with defense 26, my troops have yet to manage such feat.
I like developing an anti-strategy in each of my games, I dont like the fact I cannot develop an anti-strategy against vanheim raiders. The only thing may or may not work is an immediate rush for their capitol after I've massed enough mages/SCs/thugs and got sufficient research.
P.S. there are many good combos, but w9 is a must for Vanheim imho, it skyrockets their already insane defense.

[PDF]

We're beating a dead horse IMHO.
The combo of 20 def+glamour+fast+sacred+low res cost for a paltry 75 gold is a magnet for a high level bless (F9W9+)leading to a very unbalanced nation.
I've yet to find a way of countering Vanheim or Helheim before turn 25+ (if still alive). Last try was Arco vs Vanheim MA (F9W9N4), I get stomped and neither Elephants nor groups of astral mages scripted to Mind Burn and Paralyze had even marginal efficiency (considering battles opposing somewhat equal cost of troops).
Maybe Fire magic is more effective but I'm don't think it's enough before level 5.
When playing Vanheim the hardest fight I've had was against Machakan big sacred Black Hunters spiders (which had a F9N4 bless). But even then I beat them because they are much harder to produce en masse so they were overwhelmed (I had 80-some vans vs 30-35 spiders, because spiders cost 66% gold and 200% res MORE than a Van).
Worst thing is that when you lose you don't even have survivors as the ultra fast Vans wreak havoc in the rear... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[CharonJr]

Hmm, I have only played this vs. the AI, but could a heavy bless Mictlan (F9W9B4) pose some problems to Van in EA even in MP ?

Lots of small units with 2-3 attacks plus some devils for heat auras ?

IIRC those Vans just had a W4 or W6 bless, so W9 might have had a different result, but the Mictlan swarm might be able to overcome this higher bless, too.

CharonJr

[Kuritza]

Mictlan poses problem to anyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But think of it - to kill vans with lots of small units and devils, you must catch them first. They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw). Also, vanheim can wreak havoc amongst your jaguar warriors with bladewind and wind guided indie archers. What can your mages do against the van sacreds?
P.S.
To think of it, as Mictlan you have these2xblessed bats, it may be too much for the Van. Not in MA though, when blood magic is banned by Lawgiver.)

[Meglobob]

Kuritza said:
They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw).



I did this as MA Ermor with stealth shadow vestals against MA Mictlan, I had loads of lvl 1N druids, leading 15 shadow vestals stealthy raiding. The druids would bless the vestals with S9W9A4 bless.

However, MA Mictlan with is W9F9S9 blessed jaguar warriors simply created a load of 40 strong armies that countered my stealthy vestals. As soon as I took 1 he took it back. MA Mictlan also had enough troops left over to mount an offensive against me.

So why not do the same against stealthy vans? To every attacking strategy there is usually a counter strategy, the only problem is you have not thought about it yet.

[CharonJr]

Yup, stealth is a problem and Mictlan's PD is bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Yup, Eaglewarriors ftw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif and later the summoned flying jaguars - Ozelots (sp?) - with some scared summons (bats and regular jaguars) till you get to them.

3 attacks with a F9 bless should be enough to hit even W9 Van's at least once and get rid of their glamor. Maybe I will try a little hotseat game vs myself later on and see if it works. But considering the cheap Mictlan sacreds I would put my money with them atm.

It might come down to Van raiding Mictlan's provinces while Mictlan stomps throught Van's provinces.

IMO Mictlan would win this one but due to the raiding would have fallen way behind in MP.

CharonJr

[CharonJr]

Yup, personally I have yet to see any setup/nation that can not be countered by a certain strategy, but as many others before me did, I will agree that the ###heim nations tend to have certain advantages.

Niefel with a N10E9 bless is pretty bad, too (70hp, 14hp regen, 20prot berserkers with cold aura IIRC). But due to their small numbers the mentioned above Mictaln swarm works against them or spells like soul slay, desintegrate or similar spells.

Basically I am more inclined to think that high dual/tripple bless strategies are too powerful since not all nations can use those effectively and most games are too short to make up for the early game advantage (which should often translate into a late game advantage as well) by having good scales.

CharonJr

[lch]

Kuritza said:What can your mages do against the van sacreds?


Agony, Bloodletting. Both kill the mirror image instantly. Blood Boil, kills one Van/Hel unit instantly, so it's a great spell to spam cast. Since Vans/Hels are capital only and expensive, your enemy will have trouble to replace the lost sacreds. Fireballs are extremely useful against glamor squads, too, since they can catch fire and pass on fire damage to the surrounding units. Vans/Hels are just as vulnerable to magic as any other unit.

[Baalz]

Hmmm, Mictlan is particularly vulnerable to raiding because of the spread out blood hunters. If you can only effectively blood hunt in provinces you've got either a castle or a permanent army stationed, it slows down your blood economy A LOT. I have yet to actually go up against a Van/Helhiem nation on MP (mostly because I focus extra hard on diplomacy with them), but it seems like moderate to heavy raiding would seriously impair non-MA Mictlan.

[Gandalf Parker]

So far the real difference I see is that the ****heim advantages are EASIER to use than many others. I think thats what puts them at the top of the finger-pointing chart. Not that they are too powerful but maybe just that it doesnt take much skill to take advantage of it. So it shows up sooner in new players games. The other good tactics need a more experienced player so the ****heim stuff puts a mediocre player on par with experts. That might be an imbalance but Im not sure what change would help it.

[CharonJr]

Personally I go for a fairly focused blood-hunting strategy most of the time (5 provinces with 3 B3+1 hunters in each), but I would have to agree that with mainly fodder as patrols the 3 High Priests would be hard pressed to stop a Van raiding party. But due to having B3 it might not be impossible (no manual here, due to this I don't know if there are some decent spells vs. Van in B1-3).

Guarding 5 provinces with enough units to repel a raid in addition to having some armies claiming Van provinces and hunting for its home province might be too much even with the cheap troops.

But this depends on the phase of the game and how it is progressing overall. The roughly 120 slaves I get this way while "wasting" 90RPs might not be that attractive all the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But I will take a look at this in the testgame, too (EA).

CharonJr

[NickW]

Gandalf Parker said:
So far the real difference I see is that the ****heim advantages are EASIER to use than many others.




Well yeah they are easier to use. It's hard to use them wrong since they are superior units.


Gandalf Parker said:
I think thats what puts them at the top of the finger-pointing chart. Not that they are too powerful but maybe just that it doesnt take much skill to take advantage of it. So it shows up sooner in new players games. The other good tactics need a more experienced player so the ****heim stuff puts a mediocre player on par with experts. That might be an imbalance but Im not sure what change would help it.



I disagree. A more experienced player, who knows exactly how to take advantage of such uber troops, is really good to tear someone up with them.