Wishing for an SC?

[UncleYee]

Is it ever worth it to wish for a pretender to use as an SC? Of course, "worth it" is relative, I know. But I wonder if people do this.

And if so, which one? I'm so impressed with the Aegis, and so the Gorgon seems like a winner. But that Cyclops looks pretty mighty. It's different from choosing a pretender because you can't optimize the magic paths, and I can't afford to go crazy empowering.

[Sombre]

People often go for a Seraph don't they?

I've never even used Wish.

[Taqwus]

Try "Seraph". You'll probably like it.

[K]

If you are willing to blow the gems, empowering a creature until it can wish for Power can be very interesting.

That being said, there are several monsters that make mighty fine SCs. Get a Unitview map and check out the ones that look good.

[MaxWilson]

I suppose you'd have to empower it to, what, S5? Starshine Skullcap + Ring of Sorcery + Ring of Wizardry + Robe of the Archmagi get you to S9. If you're willing to use the Dimensional Rod and The Forbidden Light (which both horror mark you IIRC) you'd only have to go to S3, since The Forbidden Light replaces a ring, unless you're using a creature with 3 misc slots like the Master Lich.

-Max

[UncleYee]

Woe, woe, woe. Yes, if I had all the gems in the world, I could do some interesting stuff. Like empower/wish up to a boosted S14 and then teleport around casting master enslave and vortex of returning per the ever expanding tome thread.

That would rule.

But sadly, I don't have infinite gems, so I'm just wondering if any being is out-of-the-box worth the 100 pearls. I mean many summons are 50 gems, so if there's a pretender or something twice as good, wish is not SUCH an outlandish price.

Wow, that seraph is something. I never would have thought of that. Marignon gets a better deal, but we can't all be Marignon. Now I wish I hadn't given the forbidden light to that djinn...

[Wish]

crone with cap+ring of wiz+ring of sorc+ring of wiz+ring of sorc can do it with astral 4. course thats capitalizing on the bug where you can double up on items as long as you have something in between.


also master enslave+vortex doesn't alwayws work (if your mage thinks they will win, given the troops they nabbed, they won't cast vortex.)

[UncleYee]

I grant that a crone or a master lich could wish for Power, but how effective would the resulting unit be? Relative to say a Cyclops, who has better stats out of the box (100 pearls really being all I want to spend here) than the crone after one or even two (or three?) wishes for power. (100 for crone, + empower from S0, + 100 more per Power wish (each subsequent one being only half effective). That's an awful lot of pearls).

Maybe wishing for a unit is so wasteful that it's not worth considering unless you're just messing around. But that seraph is tempting. And I'm still keen on the gorgon.

[Huzurdaddi]

I thought a given unit could only wish for power once ...

[Shovah32]

Nope, i think it has a slightly higher effect the first time though.
A seraph is a great unit to wish for with awe, flying, fireshield, 3 100% resistances, passive effect of eye shield, great basic stats and F4A4S4H4 when gift of reasoned. Also sacred.

[HoneyBadger]

Gorgon *might* be worth it right out of the box. Carrion Dragon or Ancient Kraken are formidable, although I would hesitate to use them without a good strategy in place.
Lord of the Night is a beautiful assassin, and good if your nation lacks such things.

[Meglobob]

Shovah32 said:
Nope, i think it has a slightly higher effect the first time though.
A seraph is a great unit to wish for with awe, flying, fireshield, 3 100% resistances, passive effect of eye shield, great basic stats and F4A4S4H4 when gift of reasoned. Also sacred.



Isn't it vunerable to magic duel? A real killer that a couple of low level astral mages could get lucky...but everything has a weak spot, I suppose.

[Shovah32]

Well its S4, easily boosted to S5 with the skullcap you'll probably give himso not THAT vunerable.

[Wish]

not to mention the angel is pretty close to being able to wish for power itself

(especially if you wish for the robe of the sorceress, to add to your astral boosting items in a way that does not horror mark.)

[Taqwus]

If you wanted to go all weird and have oodles of Construction to fill slots, the Ettin Mandragora might be fun -- more arms than usual, more heads than usual, two sleep vines for six additional attacks, 0 enc, good base hp, recuperation. It's not nearly as nasty as the Seraph, 'tho.

[Wish]

lifeless though, so two of the hands should be holding a wraith or hellsword :/

[Hellboy]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned any of the Nataraja type pretenders - isn't 4 hand slots a very excellent thing? IIRC, their stats aren't half bad either...

[Ewierl]

Pangaea has a specific Sacred spell to give its Manikins regen, and it's tireless, so you have HP and fatigue all taken care of automatically. Ettin Mandragora has long been one of my faves; give him a few attack bonuses, and those 6 (IIRC) sleep vine attacks become a terrifying extra threat on top of its 3 arms! I'd rather have him than a Seraph if I needed to kill another SC, since those sleep vines are a fantastic way to take out high-HP/armor units, and much of Seraph's unique awesomeness is its anti-chaff defenses (awe, blindness, fire).

[HoneyBadger]

You know, the thing about Wishing for a Pretender is that you're not actually wishing for a *Pretender*, you're just wishing for a chassis. So, wishing for, say, a Void Lurker, will get you a Void Dweller sans hardly any magical paths, even though it's supposed to be one of the most powerful magical beings. You're cheated if you wish for a magically powerful, physically weak being, because you don't get more than a drop of their potential.

It would be better-and a good use of high-level magic-if you could wish for a sortof "sidekick" Pretender. The spell could cost a certain amount of astral gems-say 250-just to get running, and then after that, each additional astral gem you spend gives you a point to spend on the new Pretender, fully decked out with magic paths. You'd have to pay the price for whichever chassis you chose, and after that, you could spend on magic paths and dominion.
Scales wouldn't be changeable with this spell.

I wouldn't think it would be difficult to code, since you'd just be tying the spell into the Pretender creation program. The new Pretender wouldn't grant Blessing effects though, unless you spent more gems on the new one than you spent points on the old one (something around 1250?).

The more powerful of the two (or three or whatever) Pretenders would be the one to grant blessings to sacred units.

This sort of set-up would have a lot of thematic interest, because you could potentially build whole pantheons, you could replace an old god with an up-and-comer, and you'd see your nation's religion evolve over time as you added new gods into the Pantheon. The power of Wish would be curtailed a bit, without being modified, since you probably wouldn't use it to summon the few SC Pretender chassis, even though you could.

[Wish]

yeah, i like the destroyer of worlds with air magic (for mistform and mirror image) but only 1 misc slot means you have to make up either magic rresistance, luck, or regeneration somewhere else - usually through one of those hand slots. (just using the most common miscs as examples)

[quantum_mechani]

Shovah32 said:
Well its S4, easily boosted to S5 with the skullcap you'll probably give himso not THAT vunerable.

Booster items don't count for the purposes of magic duel.

[Sir_Dr_D]

What about communions, and astral enhancing spells, like power of the spheres

[Wish]

nope

spells don't even enhance the amount of gems you can spend.

[MaxWilson]

Communions don't, but astral-enhancing spells do.

-Max

[Wish]

qm should rule in, but i think that is a not true thing said there.

[Huzurdaddi]

About Seraphs here is a basic one, total cost of 180 gems ( 100 wish, 15 GoR, 65 equipment ):

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3460/baselv4.jpg

Here is one that I empowered 1 level of astral and then wished for power, total gems 355, so aproximatly x2. I wonder if this is worth 2 of the above?

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=powerpg9.jpg

Hmm... I am not seeing the images. Any idea what is wrong with my image tag?

[Wish]

try using html, otherwise dunno

[MaxWilson]

Okay, I just checked. An S8 Titan boosted to S10 with Light of the Northern Star and Power of the Spheres used 10 pearls to cast Master Enslave (ending with 200 fatigue). Spell boosters enhance the number of gems you can use.

In fact, I'm not even sure that it's correct that communions don't enhance the number of gems you can use. Why do people talk about using 32-communicant Communions to cast Master Enslave with S2 casters if S2 casters are still limited to 2 gems? However, I have little firsthand experience with Communions so I've never tested this myself. My comment above should have been "Perhaps communions don't..."

-Max

[Manuk]

regarding the images that huzzurdadi posted. I noted that hydra skin armor grants more protection (22) that it claims (10?), and that happened with other armors like the 5-gem blacksteel armor giving the protection of the full version 10gem one.
No, no natural protection as I seen that on humans wearing them.

[calmon]

Manuk said:
regarding the images that huzzurdadi posted. I noted that hydra skin armor grants more protection (22) that it claims (10?), and that happened with other armors like the 5-gem blacksteel armor giving the protection of the full version 10gem one.
No, no natural protection as I seen that on humans wearing them.



The image shows a seraph which have a basic protection of 14. The hydra skin armor works correct, i use the very often and on a (human) scout for example it has 11 protection like the description of the armor says.

[Manuk]

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3460/baselv4.jpg

checking...

don't click in quick reply but instead the reply word over the original message. Then click in "image" word below the message (where you read URL, Email, image, List Start, etc, etc)

[Ewierl]

Do you really think a Vine Shield is a worthwhile addition? I haven't used them much, but my reading is that it'll sometimes vine up people who attack. But a Seraph doesn't need more ways to slow down chaff (given its awe/fire/blind effects), and I'd rather have even large foes swinging at him than not. Give him a better weapon, either one of the Brands for AoE or something AP for big foes, then maybe a weightless tower shield (in case of crossbows) or a lucky coin, or else a big fat 2H weapon for more smackdown on big enemies.

[Manuk]

What about mind duel. Isn't the seraphine vulnerable to it?
Perhaps an air SC for cloud trapeze.

[HoneyBadger]

I was wondering about the vine-shield too.

[Shovah32]

You should all bow before my seraph with full resistances, luck, ethereal, 18 reinvigoration with 4 encumberance, awe+6, fear+10, chill(16), fireshield(16), petrification and blindness against attackers, flight, 931 health, 30 protection, 311 health, 99 attack and 113 defence. All this BEFORE buffing(which gives quickness, regeneration and air buffs usually) and without heroic abilities.

It also has 10 in all paths of magic. This, my friends, is why you should wish for an SC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[jutetrea]

pixplskthx

[Shovah32]

Cant, sorry.

[Evilhomer]

anyone know if spells like phoenix pyre or elixir of life works against mind duel ?