OT: good fantasy books

[Xietor]

I wanted to share a few series that I found pretty good that maybe are off the beaten path a bit. So I will avoid the usual and obvious references to Wheel of Time, Tolkien, Feist etc.


1. "When True Night Falls" Trilogy. C.S. Friedman. Technically science fiction, but it is fantasy at heart. Magic and swords. It has a slow start, but has to lay the background. But it picks up fast, and is top notch fantasy.

2. "The Last Apprentice".Joe Delaney. 2 books so far more to come. A little bit spooky. Good read.

3. Magic's Pawn series by mercedes lackey. This is a good trilogy, but it is not for the homophobic. Main character is gay. But good sword and sorcery.

[Teraswaerto]

Mercedes Lackey good? First time I ever hear anyone say that.

I'd recommend:

A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin
-Low fantasy, lots of political plotting, warring noble houses. Very bloody and ruthless, the good guys are not guaranteed to win or to survive.

The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson
-High fantasy, demigods and ancient races, sorcerers battling demons, armies incinerated by magic. History of the world reaching back hundreds of thousands of years. Reminds me of Dominions actually.

Prince of Nothing by Scott Bakker.
-Weird fantasy, the Dark Lord was killed centuries ago and people no longer believe he really ever existed. His servants still exist though, and they are led by sex-maniac aliens. Very dark and disturbing, but excellent.

[Ubik]

Best fantasy story I ever read is "A song of Ice and Fire" by G.R.R. Martin. Start by reading book 1 "A Game of Thrones" and stop at "A Feast for Crows" waiting for the author to continue the story...

[Xietor]

The g martin books are good early, but his last book, a Feast for crows, was pretty bad. He ran out of steam.

[Xietor]

Mercedes Lackey has written many series, most of them not so good. This one particular series actually won a few awards and was good.

[Evilhomer]

Thats mainly cause he split a huge book up in two parts, and had most of the boring characters in book 1 (last one published).

My vote would go for a "song of ice and fire" for number 1. Other books i have really enjoyed when young would probably be Robert Jordan (first 5 books are good, then he somehow lost himself in the plot), Tolkien (a classic) and Le Guin (earthsea).

[jutetrea]

ditto on RR Martin

The Malazan series was surprisingly good, a bit similar to the black company books in that they take a bit to get familiar with the characters... but it works.

Brust's assassin books are good as well

[Salamander8]

I love the Discworld series by Terry Pratchett. Especially Guards, Guards!; Mort; Pyramids: and: Moving Pictures. The Monty Python humor combined with the swords and sorcery (as well as sourcery http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) make for some excellent reading.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Song of Ice and fire is great, but I am not a fan of such long stories.
I would prefer:

The Night Watch from Sergej Lukyanenko

It's a perfect blend of fantasy (magic, vampires usw.) brought into our time. It's from a russian author and creates some kind of magic cold war:

In the world of the night watch, there are humans and others. Others are former humans that learned to use magic in one way or the other. However, becoming an other means you have to choose whether to serve the light or the darkness. After both sides nearly annihilated each other, a truce was settled limiting the amoung of good and evil both sides are allowed to do. Both sides have police force that makes sure the other side does not cheat - the night- and daywatch. It's a story about a cold war between those two factions and a detective story about Anton, a young nightwatch member.

[Evilhomer]

It would seem like GRRMs books are the dominion players favourite choice.

[Xietor]

That is because they love diplomacy and treachery!

[Novi]

Teraswaerto said:
The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson
-High fantasy, demigods and ancient races, sorcerers battling demons, armies incinerated by magic. History of the world reaching back hundreds of thousands of years. Reminds me of Dominions actually.



Well, my experience with this book wasn't as thrilling as it was supposed to be according to the countless fans... Yes, it is epical in basically every aspect but exactly that makes it tedious and difficult to read. Too many facts, too little explanations. Took me a TONNE of devotion and time to read.

The very best thing I've read so far is A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin. It might be a pain in the neck for those who yearn for glorious battles and intricate plots but it makes up for that with its depth. Recommended reading. =)

[Teraswaerto]

Yeah, it's true that the Malazan Book of the Fallen is not the easiest read. It's a good idea to re-read a few times to really get into it and understand what's going on. I've started the series from the first book every time a new part has come out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I like the Earthsea series, read it a dozen times I think.

[Edi]

I actually like Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series of books for the most part and consider them good. They have their own issues, but I found them entertaining and would not mind reading the lot of them again.

As for George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, I liked it at first, but it's almost all downhill. It has its good portions, but more bad than good in my opinion. I do not like the gratuitous feasting on rape and torture that is a fairly prevalent trend throughout the series. Martin has a lot of interesting characters, but he simply throws them away for no discernible reason when he runs out of ideas for them and generally they are not replaced or the subplots involving them tied up at all. He does have some interesting characters that actually grew out of some fairly two-dimensional cardboard cutouts into "real" characters. Jaime Lannister for one, in Storm of Swords, the Hound and Tyrion Lannister earlier.


Edis's list of good fantasy
J.V.Jones: Barbed Coil, Book of Words trilogy (Baker's Boy, A Man Betrayed, MAster and Fool), Sword of Shadows trilogy (A Cavern of Black Ice, A Fortress of Grey Ice, A Sword from Red Ice (Nov. 2007)). Contemporary fantasy does NOT get any better than the Sword of Shadows trilogy. That one trounces anything and everything else on the market that I've ever read.
Janny Wurts: To Ride Hell's Chasm, Wars of Light and Shadow (currently at 7 volumes, more to come at some point), Cycle of Fire trilogy, Master of Whitestorm. If J.V. Jones's SoS trilogy wasn't so bloody good, Wurts would be undisputed queen of fantasy writing.
C.S. Friedman: Coldfire trilogy (Black Sun Rising, When True Night Falls, Crown of Shadows), see above.
Marcus Herniman: Arrandin trilogy. Has its problems, but I really liked this one. The final book was in many ways the weakest of them all, but the first one (Siege of Arrandin) completely drew me in.
R. Scott Bakker: Prince of Nothing, already mentioned, totally kickass.
Raymond E. Feist: The Riftwar saga (the original four volumes starting with Magician), and its followup books up until the end of the Serpentwar saga, plus the Empire trilogy cowritten with Janny Wurts
Deborah Chester The Sword, The Ring, The Chalice trilogy and its followup books and the War of Shadows trilogy are all good.
Glen Cook: Black Company. 'Nuff said.
R.E. Howard: The Conan Chronicles. What, you thought I would leave HIS name out of the list?
Ursula Le Guin: The Earthsea books are great.
Tolkien If Howard and Le Guin get mentioned, then he does too.
Roger Zelazny: The Chronicles of Amber
Patricia A McKillip: The The Riddle-master's Tale trilogy. A very good series, though a bit slow to start. It has the novelty of having very unusual villains and a suitably mysterious plot.
That should do for starters.

[Xietor]

Edi,

on the JV Jones series, are they stand alone, or should you read them in a particular order? In short, can you just start with the SOS trilogy?

[Teraswaerto]

I think you misjudge Martin, Edi.

The world he writes about is violent, and the fact he does not gloss over it is one of the things that make him a great writer. The fact that being a main character is not a guarantee if surviving does not mean he's "run out of ideas", just that for a while he told the story from the point of view of someone who doesn't live to see its end.

Also, I don't see how you can say Martin has too much rape and torture and then list Prince of Nothing as "good fantasy".

[Nick_K]

My favourite fantasy novels are probably the Lyonesse books by Jack Vance. They're available in two volumes in the 'fantasy masterworks' series.

Their main competition is Fritz Leiber's books about Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. They're called something like 'The chronicles of Lankhmar' in the fantasy masterworks series.

I was also very impressed with some others mentioned here - the chronicles of amber and Earthsea for instance.

There's a few mentioned here that I didn't like very much, but I won't go into that - people have different tastes and I don't want to upset anyone by criticising their favourite!


(edit)
Oh, I forgot the "chronicles of an age of darkness" series by Hugh Cook. He's been criticised before so evidently they're not to everyone's taste, but I found them to be enjoyable light-hearted reads.

[Deimos_tw]

Day/The Night Watch from Sergej Lukyanenko

/seconds that, and if you're too impatient for books the movie's good too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

K.J. Parker's 'Fencer' Trilogy was fun.

Everything Eddings

Read more Tolkien

I found J.V. Jones interminably boring, personally - almost as bad as the wheel of time.

[Jazzepi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber

I absolutely loved The Chronicles of Amber. If you want a shorter read that's a mix of sci-fi and fantasy try out Lord of Light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light

Jazzepi

[Teraswaerto]

Not mentioned so far:

Michael Moorcock, and his The Eternal Champion body of work. Elric of Melniboné is probably the best known. Also Cormyr, Hawkmoon, Erekosë and many others.

Robert E. Howard, and the original Conan short stories. Classic sword and sorcery everyone should read.

Stephen King, and the Dark Tower. A strange postmodern metafiction that ties together all his novels. Sadly, I felt the series lost its focus towards the end.

[BandarLover]

Very interesting topic. I know of some of the writers mentioned but some I've not heard of. I pretty much grew up on Tolkien, so I compare everyone else to his works, often unfairly I admit.

I also like Terry Goodkind. His Sword of Truth series does have an annoying habit of enormous plot build up, and then wrapping everything up in the final chapter. But the world he's created is very interesting.

I also enjoy Cecilia Dart-Thornton. I've only read two books, and honestly don't know if she has more but they were both very good.

And even though he didn't write fantasy per se, Richard Adams is one of my favorite authors as well. Shardik is probably the closest to fantasy, though Watership Down does have a lot of rabbit mythology in it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So there's my two cents worth.

[Teraswaerto]

BandarLover said:
And even though he didn't write fantasy per se, Richard Adams is one of my favorite authors as well. Shardik is probably the closest to fantasy, though Watership Down does have a lot of rabbit mythology in it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Adams is great. Maia, the prequel to Shardik, is even more fantasy I think.

[Edi]

Teraswaerto said:
I think you misjudge Martin, Edi.

The world he writes about is violent, and the fact he does not gloss over it is one of the things that make him a great writer. The fact that being a main character is not a guarantee if surviving does not mean he's "run out of ideas", just that for a while he told the story from the point of view of someone who doesn't live to see its end.

Also, I don't see how you can say Martin has too much rape and torture and then list Prince of Nothing as "good fantasy".


The difference is the way they go about it. I know there's quite a bit of sex and also rape in Prince of Nothing, but Bakker hardly dwells on it the same way it jumps out from Martin's books. Case in point, there's the scene from SoIaF where Daenerys is married off to the barbarian and what follows reads like something from a pedophile's wet dream. Then there are some scenes where it is, completely out of the blue, brought up how the Lannisters' soldiers have tied women to stocks and are raping them etc ad nauseam, in places where it does not serve the plot at all.

In Prince of Nothing, I have a hard time remembering similar occurrences completely out of the blue. Black Company also has its share of mentions of what the mercenaries do to captured women, but that's just it, mere mentions without going into the gory details. Martin's writing in those instances reminds me far too much of Terry Goodkind's bull****.

I do understand that opinions may vary and that some people like Martin's work even in those instances that I deplore, and that is their right. It's also my right to express my own opinion on the subject, and at least I can enumerate sound reasons for those opinions of mine other than just some nebulous gut feelings.


Xietor, of J.V. Jones's books, Barbed Coil is standalone. Book of Words and Sword of Shadows can be read independently of each other, but I would recommend reading Book of Words before Sword of Shadows for reasons that will become VERY clear at the end of A Cavern of Black Ice. It is not necessary, but it will greatly enhance your understanding of the backstory and some other things.

Deimos, which books by Jones did you read? Granted that Book of Words is like drying to drink tar in some places, but once you get through those patches, it's good. The Sword of shadows trilogy is an order of magnitude better and much faster-paced, which just shows how much she has developed as a writer.

[Edi]

Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series was tolerable for the first two books. Three and four were just tedious and everything after that is just thinly veiled preaching of his (neoconservative libertarian) political views interspersed with liberal sprinklings of masturbatory rape fantasies that should turn the stomach of most decent people.

It had good ideas to begin with and up to and including the end of the fourth book and even the Chimes in the fifth, but those good ideas are not nearly enough to counter all the screwed up ****e in his works.

[Xietor]

I agree with Edi somewhat. The early Martin books are excellent, despite what i think is overkill on feeding a man's
prurient interest. To me, there were two major drawbacks in the books, and the unnecessary and somewhat offensive aggressive feeding of the prurient interest is somewhat degrading to the intellect of the reader.

Second, martin himself admitted that killing off too many main characters was what stumped him in continuing the series.

He DID kill off too many of his major story lines, by his own admission, and the creation of new ones, like that stupid female knight, was a poor substitute for some of more interesting characters he killed off.

To add insult to injury, when he finally(years later and after burning the 1st effort) managed to publish another book in the series, it does not include anything about the 2 most interesting characters left alive, Jon Snow and his crippled little brother.

I would strongly advise against buying A Feast for Crows, but i do recommend the earlier books. His earlier books get an 8/10 but could have been even higher had he not dwelled on the issues raised by edi, which assumes the average fantasy reader is a 15 year old boy wanting masturbation material. The killing off of main characters is fine to a degree, but not if leaves the storyline bereft of meaning.

And it is not open to debate that he killed off too many main characters, martin admits that mistake himself.

[Teraswaerto]

SPOILERS ABOUT A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE!



Edi,
What happens on the wedding night between Khal Drogo and Daenyrys is important to the story. Though Daenyrys is forced to marry him, she comes to love him and accepts her part as Drogo's wife. Everything that follows is built on that.

Also, she is not a preteen, so your pedophile remark is not accurate. Modern laws about age of consent are just that, modern.

Likewise, descriptions of brutality done by soldiers of the warring Houses are important. Writing about war and passing by the ugly parts is very common, and as I said before, the fact that Martin doesn't do so speaks in his favor.

I can understand that one can be repulsed by such things, but that is quite a separate issue from whether or not the books are good. Not that I'm denying your right to an opinion, but like you, I like to explain my point of view. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



SPOILER END

[Actuarian]

Here some books that haven't been mentioned yet.

Robin Hobb is a wonderful author. All of her book are really good, but her Assassin Trilogy is a must read.

Kate Elliott - Crown of Stars series (this definately has a Dominions feel to it)

Stephen R. Donaldson - Thomas Covenant/Illearth series

Raymond E Feist - The Riftwar Saga

Marion Zimmer Bradley - The Mists of Avalon
Guy Gavrial Kay - Fionavar Tapestry trilogy

John Varley - Gaea Trilogy (Wizard, Titan, Demon) - this is clothed as science fiction, but it's really fantasy.

Ursula Le Guin - The Earthsea Trilogy

[crumply]

Jack Vance--The Dying Earth

[Actuarian]

Teraswaerto, I agree with your points regarding Martin, but I wouldn't want any of my kids reading him. You should try Robin Hobb if you haven't already. She and Martin both write darkly, and convey a similar feeling of desperation and a sense of fatalism.

[Deimos_tw]

I was unfair to robert jordan in that post, the first few were immersive, excellent stuff, i mean, years on and i still remember lots of it, I guess the trouble was he wrote so much pedantic tripe inbetween the bits of interest as the series progressed it became a slog.

J.V. Jones..bakers boy to master and fool, it wasn't a scratch on the pawn of prophecy et al imo, but each to their own.

Not sure Brian Lumley could be defined Fantasy in the strict sense, but the necroscope books were entertaining nonetheless.

I hit reply and some guy steals most of the meat, eh - Feist and Donaldson were awesome, yay.. Donaldson though, like Jordan seemed to write for chapters on end at a time with no objective other than to get words on the page. Feist is like Eddings, but with more than half a plot:)

C.S. Lewis - ja, well, not read him since I was a kiddle, but then they were wonderful, avoided going back to them incase they aren't as good as I remember - why spoil a good memory eh ;-)

A few others that are struggling to raise their heads out of this foggy swamp of a mind.

[Actuarian]

Xeitor, I heard that the reason that Jon Snow and the cripple aren't in the latest book is that he made the book way too long and had to divide it into two books. Snow should feature in the next book.

[Cor]

Most everything by HP Lovecraft

the problem, he is a bleeding racist. I wish someone would go back and modernize his work, take out all those refrences to eugenics.

[Teraswaerto]

Actuarian said:
You should try Robin Hobb if you haven't already. She and Martin both write darkly, and convey a similar feeling of desperation and a sense of fatalism.



I've read Hobb's Farseer trilogy once, but it's been a while. I hear Liveship Traders and Tawny Man are good too, haven't read them yet. They take place in the same world, Liveship Traders being only peripherally related to Farseer while Tawny Man continues Fitz's story 15 years after the end of Assassin's Quest.

[Endoperez]

Naomi Novik has written a very interesting series about alternative history. Starting from His Majesty's Dragon, or Temeraire on the other side of the Atlantean empire. Napoleonic wars, with infantry, navy and dragons acting as huge air-ships. Dragons wearing harnesses from which the gunmen and the bellmen and the bombers and the cargo hang, dragon-to-dragon boardings, etc.

Here's an excerpt. (http://www.temeraire.org/index.cgi?pagetype=excerpt&book=hismajestysdragon& excerptfile=books/hismajestysdragon/excerpt.txt)

Johanna Sinisalo has written some unbelievably good books. Her novel 'Ennen päivänlaskua ei voi' (translated as 'Not Before Sundown', or 'Troll - a love story' in US) won several Finnish and international prizes.

W. Somerset Haugham's book "The Magician" isn't strictly fantasy, but in parts it's very close. I read it from Project Gutenberg website expecting something very different, but found myself enjoying it immensely. The book has a christian theme, but at least for me it was more about one man's faith than the God he believed in.

[Edi]

Teraswaerto said:
SPOILERS ABOUT A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE!



Also, she is not a preteen, so your pedophile remark is not accurate. Modern laws about age of consent are just that, modern.


IIRC, she was 13, and I would think you'd agree that there's a big difference between 13 and 15, which is closer to what the marriageable age was historically. It still doesn't wash, not given some conversations I've had with people who have actually worked with kids and other people traumatized by abuse (sexual or otherwise). Simply put, the description is unrealistic and off and lingers far too much.


Teraswaerto said:
Likewise, descriptions of brutality done by soldiers of the warring Houses are important. Writing about war and passing by the ugly parts is very common, and as I said before, the fact that Martin doesn't do so speaks in his favor.


It would, if it were not done in a way that wallows in it and makes it gratuitous and extraneous. Black Company has similar events, so does Prince of Nothing, Wars of Light and Shadow, Book of Words, Sword of Shadows and a lot of other books, but the point is that they do not do engage in such feasting on the subject. They don't especially shy away from it, but neither do they zoom-focus in on it.

Martin's writing has more in common with Goodkind's in this respect than any of those others, which is where it becomes such a turn-off, especially since the plot does not quite carry the day as far as it should.


Teraswaerto said:
I can understand that one can be repulsed by such things, but that is quite a separate issue from whether or not the books are good. Not that I'm denying your right to an opinion, but like you, I like to explain my point of view. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Yeah, I see your point of view, even understand it, but I do not agree with it. I would have, once upon a time when I was younger and much less experienced in many things, but not anymore. Our frames of reference are too different.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm going to keep adding to this and editing it where I feel it's appropriate, since there's a lot missing from the list
(I'm getting old, and my memory's starting to go).

Modern Fantasy:

"The Eye in the Stone"-by Alan L. Wold. This is really a superlative
novel. The author, the publisher, and the reading public all made
mistakes by not giving this book a lot more support. It's 1980s
modern, hard magic with lots of action

"Little, Big" by John Crowley. Absolutely THE fantasy novel of the
1970s-1990. The Best. 'Nuff said.

Neverwhere. The best fantasy novel that I'd recommend for pretty
much anyone and everyone to read. Good for kids, good for adults,
good for grandparents, good for brits and yankees, republicans and
democrats, moslems and jews. If you haven't read it, you probably
should. Probably the best of the 1990s-plus, in terms of being a
successor to Little, Big.

Sandman is supposed to be his best work, but I haven't managed to get the collection yet-it's also graphical, which isn't something I'm generally including here, because it's a little bit more difficult defining, and you start to get into movies. Otherwise, I'd list the Dark Crystal and-coincidentally, the Jim Henson Company and Brian Froud.

American Gods-also by Neil Gaiman. I actually found it a bit dry
after Neverwhere, but still, a very worthy read-and once you've read
Neverwhere, you MUST read American Gods-otherwise, you won't have a
grasp on Neil Gaiman's range as an author-plus, I command you to!

Oldschool Fantasy: This is the hardcore stuff that's every bit as relevant, and in the end, generally better written and better fantasy than, the Lord of the Rings.

Dying Earth series by Jack Vance. Really excellent techno-fantasy with lots of neat magical and technological weirdness.

The Lankhmar books by Fritz Leiber. If you haven't read them, you should. Amazing, weird, at times philosophical, and funny!

Elric Saga by Michael Moorcock, the Anti-Tolkien.
Another incredible read. Very weird, very intense at times.

Conan. Read the originals by Robert E Howard. They're a lot better than the movies and Conan's *very* different from Gubernator Schwartzenegger.

Gormenghast-all Titus books by Mervyn Peake: I've just started
reading this, so normally I wouldn't recommend it, but the author
is/was an appealing personality, and the book itself flies in the
face of all that bad fantasy stands for-plus, it feels a bit like
Kingdom Hospital.


Epic Fantasy:

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn; and the Song of Ice and Fire-just the first book, though, the rest are more and more disappointing-if you
absolutely MUST read about dragons and elves, and get your epic on,
these two are actually worth the time of day.

"The Dark Tower" By Stephen King. Stephen King gets a bad
rap-mostly deserved-of having churned out book after book in order
to get paid. He's still a really good author, and the Dark Tower
series is his Opus. Besides, who doesn't like the idea of a fantasy
version of The Good the Bad and the Ugly?

"Magician" by Raymond E. Feist
More dragons and elves, but I decided to include Feist, because Magician really is quite a good book (it was divided into Apprentice and Master for publishing reasons), even though I don't really care for most of the later books after Darkness at Sethanon, the exception being the Empire books he did with Janny Wurtz. Atleast for a little while, he was really innovative and exciting as an author, which isn't easy to do in such a tired genre.

Other:

"The Black Company" The first two books, by Glen Cook-the best
military fantasy currently extant. I'm only recommending the first
books because I've only read the first two, and I've heard
discouraging things about the rest of the series, but the first one's groovy, the second one's gravy. Cook does with fantasy exactly
what I want done with fantasy in a military fantasy novel-apparently, later
on he screws up the formula, but oh well.

"Weaveworld" By Clive Barker-I haven't read this one either, all the
way through, but I like what I've read, and I've heard very good
things, and it's written by Clive Barker-besides, if I had read all
the best fantasy, already, I'd be pretty depressed.

"Ambergris" all works, By Jeff Vandemeer. Really great quirky
fantasy/horror set in a third world and written by a teacher (and
probably a very good one) of creative fiction. Again, it's written
the way I'd want it to be written.

Terry Pratchet: The single best comic fantasy author of the 21st century, and one of the very best fantasy authors of the 20th and 21st. I recommend pretty much anything and everything he writes.

[BandarLover]

Waaahhh! How could I forget Gaiman?! I'm about to start Stardust.

And now thanks to this thread, I'll be starting some other new books later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Edi]

I'm going to second the people who said Guy Gavriel Kay writes good stuff. I've read Tigana and Sailing to Sarantium and they were great.

Likewise with Cecilia Dart-Thornton, the Biterbynde series was good, even if it took me a fairly long time to read it.

Sarah Ash's Tears of Artamon (Lord of Snow and Shadows, Prisoner of the Iron Tower, Children of the Serpent Gate) is great, even though I largely detest books where the premise seems too reminiscent of historical Europe with some fantasy flavorings on top. For this reason I almost hurled Karen Elliot's first book into a wall, since I'd just read two or three series with too many similarities, but I'll have to get back to it.

One writer that I have not yet seen mentioned here is David Farland and his Runelords series. Elizabeth Haydon's Rhapsody series is also a good one, even though some elements of it are annoying. Both it and Farland's Runelords certainly can't be blamed for lack of originality either.

[Teraswaerto]

Edi,
I don't remember the descriptions as "feasting", not any more than in Prince of Nothing certainly, and I found Bakker's alien flesh-lovers and their rape-driven creations far more disturbing than anything in A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Teraswaerto]

Gaiman is great. His main work is The Sandman, which was published as a comic book between 1988 and 1996. It's been collected into 10 albums which are still in print I think.

[Edi]

I'm going to put a word of warning (based on my personal opinion, so take with appropriate amount of salt) about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn:

It is, without doubt, the most terminally boring series of fantasy I've ever read. Your mileage may vary, but if you are bored halfway through the first book and finding your attention wandering, do yourself a favor and leave it at that. It is NOT going to change in style or pace of events for the rest of the series and you will not get those hours back. I wish I could.

If, on the other hand, you find yourself immersed and blown away, that is quite fine and I hope you enjoy the books fully. I also hope that whatever it is you have isn't contagious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Edi]

Teraswaerto said:
Edi,
I don't remember the descriptions as "feasting", not any more than in Prince of Nothing certainly, and I found Bakker's alien flesh-lovers and their rape-driven creations far more disturbing than anything in A Song of Ice and Fire.


I will amend my earlier posts: With the exception of THOSE creatures, Prince of Nothing is less offensive in the regard I spoke of earlier. The No-God's creatures, yes, they were very, very disturbing indeed.

As for the word "feasting", well, wallowing is better, but the Finnish translation we're looking for is "hekumoida", though it would be impolite toward the others here to talk all in Finnish.

[Xietor]

As my 1st post alluded, Feist, Jordan, and Tolkien were not included on my list because they are so well known, i thought it redundant.

But, of course, Feist is excellent, Jordan's 1st few books were 10/10, then became dribble, and Tolkien is what other Fantasy novels are measured against.

[HoneyBadger]

I didn't find Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn to be nearly as boring as the Wheel of Time, the Lord of the Rings, Terry Goodkind's stuff (I didn't make it all the way through the first book, and I don't think I'll bother going back) and the crowning achievement of Accountants in Chainmail/Fantasy Economics 101/The Great Gatsby with Swords that was Feist's Merchant Prince.

M,S, and T was very lengthy and densely written, but not as I recall in a bad way.

[MaxWilson]

Steven Erikson--I really like the Malazan Book of the Fallen, although I hate the first book in the series (many people do). Erikson's writing vastly improved in the ten-year gap between writing Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates. If anyone is interested, I'd recommend starting with Memories of Ice, especially because of the Seguleh. A nation of Nietzsche supermen sends a punitive army of THREE MEN to punish a neigboring Evil Empire for bothering them. Now that's style! (They probably would have gotten obliterated if they hadn't acquired allies, an ancient sorceress and a T'lan Imass, but they would have given it a good try.)

I enjoyed Martin for a couple of books, but eventually the grinding unpleasantness of the world got through to me and I said the Eight Deadly Words: "I don't care what happens to these people." I haven't gone back. Martin admitted in an interview that, of the characters in SoIaF, he identified most closely with Tyrion because of his sexual obsessions, which made a disturbing amount of sense given the gratuitousness of some of the material. The thing that got me interested in Martin in the first place was someone's comment that Martin examines "real evil," which is to say not some evil overlord in a tower who wants to Take Over The World, but rather the plausible kinds of evil that actually occur. It's true, and he delivered on that promise. I guess I just got turned off by, among other things, the fact that there aren't enough GOOD people in the stories to counterbalance the evils. Or if there are, they get far too little screen time. YMMV.

I second the recommendations for Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber, and Brust's Vlad Taltos books. I started with /Issola/, of which you can read the first chapter here: http://www.tor-forge.com/Excerpt.aspx?isbn=9780812589177#Excerpt

-Max

[Blofeld]

China Mieville is my favourite amongst the contemporary writers. His Bas-Lag series is certaintly not run-of-the-mill Tolkienesque cliche, it's more in weird fiction vein, the books bristle with original ideas, races/cultures and takes on magic and ot technology.
The first book, 'Perdido Street Station' suffers a bit towards the end in plot and coherence departments, but he gets better in later books, 'The Scar' and 'Iron Council'

[Xietor]

I am ordering the 1st 3 black company books, and the 1st trilogy of jv jones by edi.

If they suck, you will have to answer to Pangaea in a small map blitz duel!

[quantum_mechani]

Something that has not been mentioned that I've seen: The Waterborn by Greg Keyes. A great fantasy book that also has something of dominionsesque flavor. I've even thought about making a map/mod based on it, might look something like a small map duel between Pangaea with a lord of the wild and T'ien Ch'i with an oracle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

There is also a sequal to it called Blackgod that is about as good.

[WraithLord]

This is a great thread that holds for me the promise of reading many new marvelous books, so thanks all for your recommendations here.

I would like to add some names not mentioned here,
1. Forgotten realms books. Some may take them as childish or shallow, but to my taste they have a nice "action" feel to them, they make for a nice casual reading. Noteworthy series are: The dark elf trilogy; Legacy of the drow; Icewind Dale trilogy; The cleric quintet; The paths of darkness; The Avatar series; Return of the Archwizards; War of the spider queen;

2. Robert Jordan's wheel of time series. Mentioned before. I'd just like to say that IMO the books are good so long as you fast forward reading all the detailed descriptions of every minute thing that's going on.

3. Roger Zealazny, not only Amber, also his pseudo mythology books are great.

4. Dan Simmons. Hyperion series is top notch sci-fi. Carrion comfort and song of Kali are great dunno exactly how to classify them.

5. Terry Goodkind, Wizard's first rule, only first three books are good, the rest are abysmal.

6. G. Martin, Already mentioned. Just like to say that I loved his ice and fire series.

[djo]

To start with, I'll second the votes for Roger Zelazny, China Mieville, Patricia McKillip, Neil Gaiman, and John Crowley. They are all well above the pale, extraordinary writers. You can't go wrong with almost anything they've ever written.

The Malazan books could be Erikson's ticket into their company, if he keeps up the quality for the full series. Ditto Brust and his Vlad series.

Here are some choices from a bit off the traditional epic fantasy track:

Ash: A Secret History, by Mary Gentle--looks like, feels like, but isn't quite historical fantasy; it's a tricky book, but keep with it. This woman knows her medieval warfare! Ash is a female mercenary captain in the middle ages, fighting against a Carthage that never fell. Depending on what edition you get, it is sometimes broken up into multiple volumes.

Declare or Last Call, by Tim Powers--fantasy set in the 20th century, with conspiracies, deep magic, and convoluted connections through myth and history. Declare is a Cold War spy novel, the East and West rushing to secure a magical power on Mt. Ararat. Last Call is a Las Vegas novel about, among other things, the dangers of playing poker with a Tarot deck.

The Dragon Waiting, by John Ford--the War of the Roses, but with magic; Ford is another extraordinary writer who unfortunately didn't produce at a high rate.

The Death of the Necromancer or The Element of Fire, by Martha Wells--two well-written, character-oriented, not-epic, stand-alone fantasies, set in a country looking a lot like France. The latter is Renaissance-ish, the former is set later, in a time where magic co-exists with trains, guns, and gaslights.

[HoneyBadger]

The first book in Song of Ice and Fire was, I think, such an excellent read, so complex of a book and so popular, and pushed so hard for sequils, that it would be almost impossible for any writer to live up to it, and consequently, the next books just aren't that good, because how could they be? If you only take into account the pressure Martin's under to churn out sequils, it's going to affect the writing, and just possibly that pressure and stress is bringing out his worse qualities.

[Salamander8]

Cor said:
Most everything by HP Lovecraft

the problem, he is a bleeding racist. I wish someone would go back and modernize his work, take out all those refrences to eugenics.


I'm a big Lovecraft fan myself, and it's 1 reason I do love R'Leyh and Atlantis is this game, but I have to concur on the racial problems as well.

[HoneyBadger]

As far as Brust goes, I really admire him as a writer and "Cowboy Feng's Space-Bar and Grill" was superb-however, he seems to be becoming a little bit more mainstream than I care for, and his Taltos books remind me of years and years ago, when we used to do freeform roleplaying in chatrooms and everyone you met seemed to be half elf, half dragon, half supermodel, and have both a mysterious past and an unrealistic eye color.

[Evil Dave]

Since a few people have mentioned old authors, I'd like to point out a collection called Tales before Tolkien, which is, well, a bunch of stories written before the big T cast his Dark Shadow over the genre. (I don't really mind Tolkien, but reading TbT will make it really clear how much he changed fantasy.)

Folks might also like Lord Dunsany, one of the earliest fantasy authors. He influenced Jack Vance, who's already been mentioned. Many of Dunsany's stories are very short -- only a few pages -- but the writing is so good as to suggest huge worlds stretching away beyond the story. The Gods of Pagana is thematic for anybody who wants to play a god. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Likewise, players of Tien Chi <s>should</s> may be interested in Barry Hughart's The Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox, set in "a China that never was". Usually, only the first story, Bridge of Birds is in print, tho.

[Nick_K]

Cor said:
Most everything by HP Lovecraft

the problem, he is a bleeding racist. I wish someone would go back and modernize his work, take out all those refrences to eugenics.



While he was definitely prejudiced I don't think that Lovecraft's work is all that bad here. It's important to remember that racism was the general way of thinking in his time. I can generally shrug off this sort of thing in a book from the 20s where I wouldn't accept it from a modern author. Also, most of his stories don't have racist elements in them, due to lacking characters from any minorities.

Lovecraft is far from unique here as well. I remember a socialist friend of mine getting a tad irate about classist elements in Lord of the Rings, for instance.

With the exception of a few digs at the Chinese, I think that most of Lovecraft's more obviously prejudiced elements are targeted at groups that I believe are now well assimilated in the states - immigrants from southern Europe and whatnot. That takes quite a bit of the sting out of things.


Oh, I'm not sure you're using the term 'Eugenics' correctly here... Eugenics is essentially the idea that one can 'selectively breed' humans. It's not necessarily racist, although it is generally considered to be immoral. Eugenics was embraced by the nazis and this effectively destroyed its credibility.
I don't remember references to it in Lovecraft - his prejudices are mainly displayed by descriptions of immigrants as inferior.

[MaxWilson]

Totally off-topic, but eugenics still hasn't been totally discredited. Marriage between first cousins is outlawed in about half of the states in the United States, and it's justified on eugenic grounds.

-Max

[jutetrea]

In regards to Brust (and its very pleasant to see that he is at least known, usually its a "who?") I really liked his first 5 or 6 Vlad books, then they started to lose something. I seem to remember one "about the author" where he changed his whole view on assassination...which kind of limits a book about an assassin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Can't be bothered to dig through the box I haven't unpacked yet, but thought it had to do with being morally wrong - possibly occurring around the Orca novel.

[Teraswaerto]

MaxWilson said:
Steven Erikson--I really like the Malazan Book of the Fallen, although I hate the first book in the series (many people do). Erikson's writing vastly improved in the ten-year gap between writing Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates. If anyone is interested, I'd recommend starting with Memories of Ice
-Max



While Gardens of the Moon is not the easiest book to read or get into, and Memories of Ice indeed is the best in the series so far, I would still say that is very bad advice. There is a lot a reader wont understand, a lot that will not have the impact it should, if the reader skips the first two books.

[djo]

Teraswaerto said:
While Gardens of the Moon is not the easiest book to read or get into, and Memories of Ice indeed is the best in the series so far, I would still say that is very bad advice. There is a lot a reader wont understand, a lot that will not have the impact it should, if the reader skips the first two books.



...and for maximum confusion, start with the second book. Man, I was lost for 400 pages, before I kind of gave up understanding and enjoyed the ride.

I would recommend reading in order. The events in the first book resonate through the first three books (which is as far as I've read), and I personally didn't find the first one so inferior or dissimilar to the rest that I think if you're going to like the series, you will probably like the first book on its own.

My favorite Erikson quote comes from Andrew Wheeler, an editor at the Science Fiction Book Club. He posted on rec.arts.sf.written:

"Something like a Black Company novel written by George R.R. Martin in
which every other character is Elric. Erikson pushes a lot of epic
fantasy buttons, and jams them several feet behind the dashboard."

[vfb]

Since he hasn't been mentioned yet, I thought I'd add Jack Whyte and his Camulod Chronicals. A must read for all the Marverni, EA Ermor, and Man fans at least. You might want to start with either book 1, The Skystone, or else what's officially book 6, Uther (and then rest the rest from 1). It's pretty sparse in the magic department, so if that's what really interests you then you should probably pass.

Also since we are OT already I'll throw in a plug for the excellent "The Legacy of Heorot" and "Beowulf's Children", an SF take on the classic Beowulf.

[MaxWilson]

Teraswaerto said:

MaxWilson said:
Steven Erikson--I really like the Malazan Book of the Fallen, although I hate the first book in the series (many people do). Erikson's writing vastly improved in the ten-year gap between writing Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates. If anyone is interested, I'd recommend starting with Memories of Ice
-Max



While Gardens of the Moon is not the easiest book to read or get into, and Memories of Ice indeed is the best in the series so far, I would still say that is very bad advice. There is a lot a reader wont understand, a lot that will not have the impact it should, if the reader skips the first two books.



I agree, but I think you'll have that problem no matter *where* you start. There are things in Memories of Ice (book 3) that you won't fully appreciate until you've read Midnight Tides (book 5). (The series definitely benefits from rereads.) If you can accept that you're coming into a story in medias res, Memories of Ice has a nice theme about compassion and gives you a good grounding on the background of the Malazan universe that will help you understand Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates (books 1 and 2). If you start with Gardens of the Moon, you may feel like you're starting in the middle of the series anyway.

YMMV.

-Max

P.S. I think that's why I dislike Gardens of the Moon--I still can't figure out what it's ABOUT. Erikson started out as a painter, and he says the title and theme of the book come to him first. Memories of Ice is about compassion and redemption, House of Chains is about different responses to failure, Deadhouse Gates is about... I'm not sure, but I like Coltaine's story enough that maybe his theme carried me through the other, more puzzling parts. (I don't know what Fiddler's and Cutter's story was about.) I have no idea what Gardens of the Moon is supposed to be about, or why it has that title. If someone could explain that to me my attitude towards GotM might improve.

[Xietor]

I have to disagree on Steven King's Dark Tower. While I am a fan of some of his work, with The Shining being on my alltime top 25 list, I did not enjoy the gunslinger.

He was not my idea of a hero, he let a kid die for no real reason. I sort of have to identify with the character, and care what happens to him, for me to have an interest in the book.

In martin's series, the only characters i care about, jon snow and bran(crippled kid) were not even included in his last book.

[alexti]

Few additions that weren't mentioned:
David Coe. "Winds of the Forelands" serie.
That's a pretty good serie and the books don't detiorate as the serie progresses (at least not first 4 I've read). Combination of original political system and well-balanced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif magic system create rather interesting world. Few characters are "too white" or "too black", but the bulk of the cast is somewhere in between. Strategy and tactics (oops, I meant plot) are very good, maybe not at Martin's level, but well above average.
David Coe. "The LonTobyn chronicle". This earlier (first by the author) trilogy is fantasy with a bit of SF mixed-in. Magic world competes with industrial world. Quite good, maybe a bit weaker than "Winds of the Forelands".

Robert Silverberg's "Majipoor" books. Technically a science fiction, but stylistically it's a fantasy. Unusually peaceful for the fantasy book, well-written characters and good epic atmosphere without pages after pages with no events (common plague of genre).

George Martin's other books: "Sandkings", "The hedge knight", "Fevre Dream", "Windhaven", "Dying of the light". They vary from SF to gothic to fantasy, but all are very good. None of them have the stuff from "A song of ice and fire" Edi was unhappy about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Btw, I agree with Edi about 4th book and with Teraswaerto about the first 3.

[Velusion]

crumply said:
Jack Vance--The Dying Earth



Yes, yes, yes.

[Velusion]

Blofeld said:
China Mieville is my favourite amongst the contemporary writers. His Bas-Lag series is certaintly not run-of-the-mill Tolkienesque cliche, it's more in weird fiction vein, the books bristle with original ideas, races/cultures and takes on magic and ot technology.
The first book, 'Perdido Street Station' suffers a bit towards the end in plot and coherence departments, but he gets better in later books, 'The Scar' and 'Iron Council'



Another Yes, Yes, yes.

[Edi]

Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World trilogy is great. It's built on a mix of Finnish and Celtic mythology and quite a few original ideas on the author's part.

[Saxon]

Harry Turtledove is mostly known for his alternative histories, but some of his early work is low fantasy. The Empire of Videssos series, particularly the Lost Legion books, drop a Republican period Roman Legion down in a fictional empire which is in the late Empire stage. As a professional historian, his writing is informed with quite some depth.

That said, I find his newer work is not as good as his early work, much like Raymond Feist. I suspect first books are often really worked on for a long time, as there is no publisher. Later books get pushed through quickly as publishing contacts and so forth dominate the author’s time. Could be wrong, just my impression. In any case, Turtledove’s newer works are all alternative history and not fantasy, so outside the bounds of this discussion.

Several writers really need aggressive editors. Terry Goodkind stands out as does Tad Williams who wrote Memory, Sorrow and Thorn guy. Far too much verbiage and not enough plot. War of the Flowers is Williams’ best book by far and it is a single fat book. Sometimes a trilogy is far too much. I also think Stephen King could do with some heavy editing, though I can not argue that his commercial success suggests I am wrong.

I recently re-read Zelazny’s Amber books, twenty years after the first reading. Still good books, but not really up to my adult expectations. There is one passage where he is discussing the recruiting of troops and finding impressionable, high school types. The author then speaks directly to the reader for a moment and apologizes, as if his expectation was that most readers were male high school students. He was right the first time, but as I aged, I found his books less satisfying. I think that is one reason I like Martin’s books, they are adult through and through. One poster noted they would not have their kids read Martin. I fully agree and think that is one of the strengths of these books. If we were to list kids fantasy books, we would have a very different list than the one we have here and still have some excellent writing.

As for Conan… Yes, it was great fun back in high school, but it has aged even worse than Zelazny. What was the term used earlier? Adolescent wet dreams? It is pulp fiction, the Jon Carter of Mars for the fantasy readers. Influential and fun, but nothing more.

[Teraswaerto]

If Conan is too aged for you, but you want to read some Sword and Sorcery, look up C.L. Moore. Her Jirel short stories, though written in the 1930s like Conan, have a distinctly different feel to them.

I already mentioned Moorcock, but he is worth mentioning again. Slightly more modern, but still within the Sword and Sorcery tradition, and everyone should read at least the Elric saga.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Moorcock was my favourite when I was young. The compelling thing about his books are the many subtle secrets and interlocks between the different books, giving new insights whenever you read one of the books again.

However, today I would say that more modern works like Song of ice and Fire and Nightwatch/Daywatch are more refined... it's a bit like evolution in writing.

[Xietor]

I am fairly deep in the JV Jones 1st book of the sword of shadow trilogy. I decided to skip the 1st series, for now, and go right in to the sos trilogy. It is extremely well written, with one glaring exception.

Maybe because the author is a woman, did not play rugby, box, wrestle, or play American football, but there is no way Reif could have taken a near death beating by 5 or 6 healthy men, who hated him with a passion, over the course of days, and then be in any shape to travel over a brutally cold frozen tundra a week later. He would needs many weeks of good care to recover.

Ignoring the fact that none of his wounds got infected in a filthy environment, and even allowing for youth healing quicker, the fact that he is relatively fit, and suffered no
broken bones that required months to heal, there is no way he can travel that soon after taking that kind of beating.

If some form of magical healing was done, ok, but none was.
Maybe his affinity with the old blood lets him heal at an much faster rate? Was that part of the 1st series that i skipped?

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, I agree-I've read fantasy since I was about 4 years old, but as I've aged-I'm turning 30 (scary!) in a week-my tastes have changed. I don't put up with books that don't grab me and compel me to read them. I simply don't have patience for them and lose interest. Right now I'm reading George Alec Effinger's Audran Marid trilogy. Really excellent stuff there. It's sci-fi though, but it's the style that I appreciate. It's written for adults, about real adults, and it's interesting *to* adults-atleast to me.

A great shame that he died, especially as young as he was.
His writing is a bit like Steven Brust, when he's at his best.

Has anyone else here read Little, Big? It really is the best fantasy book I've ever read-and it's really exceptional for me to admit something like that without atleast a token reservation.

It might speak more to me than to younger or very much older readers though-I realize that I'm not ancient, but I did grow up from the 70s through the 80s to the 90s and didn't really become an "adult" until the turn of the century, and I think the book speaks to that very directly and clearly. The writing's good, and different enough that it's interesting by itself. The setting itself starts out modern, but...I won't spoil it for you.

[Edi]

SWORD OF SHADOWS SPOILER



















Xietor, might have had something to do with Death refusing to let him die. Nothing about Old Blood in the first series the same way it is in the second.

[Foodstamp]

No one is going to mention Xanth novels? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[djo]

HoneyBadger said:
Has anyone else here read Little, Big? It really is the best fantasy book I've ever read-and it's really exceptional for me to admit something like that without atleast a token reservation.



I think it's been mentioned twice in this thread (once by me). I'd call it one of the finest fantasy books ever written. It's very well regarded within the genre.

It as the most American fantasy book I've read. Whereas fantasy in the currently dominant Tolkein vein is (understandably) deeply rooted in especially Northern European traditions, Little, Big is as purely and independently American as America herself is. That is, almost, but not quite. The book, like America, has strong European (especially British) roots but has then made its own way in the world to something new and different.

If you're still wondering abou it...it's set in something like the second half of the 20th century, in an America much like ours, yet abstracted to the specificity of myth. A young man marries into an old family with a house in the country and becomes a part of their ongoing Story. Along the way you will find the country, the city, love, strife, a depression, progress, conspiracies, soap operas, hippies, orreries, some magic, and beauty and sadness that will make you gasp. Yes, it's literary. No orcs, no swords. Elves? Maybe...

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, I mentioned it before, but I didn't know if anyone else had read it, Have you read John Crowley's "Aegypt"? If so, no spoilers, please! I've been trying to track down a copy.

[djo]

I haven't read it. I'd been waiting for the fourth (and final) book in the series to come out before starting. And lo, after a search prompted by your question, I see that it is out! I would think that would prompt a reprint of all of them, if they aren't in print now.

[HoneyBadger]

Once they come out, I'll happily buy a set-providing I can find one.

[hoo]

The Black Company triology is just solid. The books of the south aren't as good but better than I remembered. I just reread them and they had some interesting aspects. The Ten Taken are some of the coolest fantasy wizards ever made.

Cook's stand alone Tower of Fear is solid as well.

I enjoy Guy Gabrial Kay's work. Enjoy his characters and storytelling.

Like the tips like Bakker and J. Jones.

[Xietor]

I just finished Black Company White Rose Trilogy.

Very good stuff. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Mr_Matt]

Me and my brother just finished writing our first fantasy novel a few months ago. Been shopping it around to publishers but haven't gotten anything yet. It's not typical fantasy however, because we're not usually fantasy writers.

Out of curiosity what do you look for in a fantasy? I find it impossible to find a good original fantasy these days. Everything is Orcs, Elves and wizards(BORING). Dominions is like the only fantasy game without those and I absolutely praise it because of that. Although, it has dwarves... grr

MrMatt

[Aezeal]

Interesting thread, I'm obviously a fantasy reader myself and with an opinion

I like Martin, Erikson and Jordan very much and those 3 are the best series I know

I think Magician (Feist) is the best single volume you can have and if I had to pick 1 book on a deserted island this would be it. Other series of Feist are nice, often the thicker the books the better the series (yes last series are less good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

Hobb is good, not as good as the first 3 I mentioned but all books are of same (good) quality, no below avarage books or mini's like Feist has done.

The prince of nothing series is good too, I like it very much.

I think Goodkind isn't all that, it started nice but the way he keeps just finding something new in each book makes them almost look like separate books instead of a series and I dislike that (I hope you all get what I mean by this.)

The black company I do not know but considering the reactions I'll look for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

C.S. Friedman is very high in some lists but IMHO just mediocre.
Eddings is nice to read one of his first series, but if you read all it is very much alike. The newer books are even less good.
Not to impressed with Donaldson

And I SO MUCH want to find a book with the original Conan story in one cover.. but dun even know which ones that would be and I've not even found one here in the Netherlands
Hmm K.J. Parker and Fencer.. that rung a bell too.. I have the first book here in dutch and liked it VERY much.. too bad I never saw anything of it again.. maybe look for it in english.. never knew there where more books of it
already.

I want to put R.A. Salvatore on the list too, not most brilliant of writing but DRZZT and Artemis Entreri must be some of my most favorite characters of all time

[jutetrea]

Song of Ice and Fire were great for low magic books, lots of combat, intrigue and a good "world". Valyrian steel, minor dragons, and nebulous evil bits.

Personally I like the dragonlance model, group of friends turn hero, get powerful, save world. Unfortunately its been done to death so its the rare version that sticks out.

Discworld model is nice, build a "world" and just tell stories in it. If the concept is good enough, the stories can be hit or miss but still positive re: forgotten realms/sanctuary.

My take on fantasy is that by being unreal it opens up a lot of options. It can combine elements of all the major genres without being pigeonholed: Love, sex, intrigue, murder, mystery, horror, military, government, coming of age, politics, "save the world", one hero/multiple hero, etc. Whatever those 7 great themes that find themselves repeated through history are, one fantasy book can encompass them all.

"Magic" can be construed in whatever way floats your boat. High magic, no problem. Low magic, you bet. Forgotten magic, ancient technology, magic vs technology, magic and technology, even stories lacking magic but referring to old magic are feasible.

Most fantasy books are just kludges of other plotlines, with fantastical characters or plot devices. A good portion of them could be easily set in the real world, they'd just be boring.

[jutetrea]

In regards to the Black Company, I'm a big fan of military fantasy. Erikson's are good, Martin has some good bits although I think the intrigue and politics are the main focus, John Ringo has a kind of post-apocalyptic series that is great, and Chris Bunch has a nice trilogy.

[djo]

Mr_Matt said:
Out of curiosity what do you look for in a fantasy? I find it impossible to find a good original fantasy these days. Everything is Orcs, Elves and wizards(BORING). Dominions is like the only fantasy game without those and I absolutely praise it because of that. Although, it has dwarves... grr



Writing is tough (I've tried). Good luck with that.

What do I look for? Tough to answer, because it's tough to generalize about writing. No sooner do you swear off adolescent coming-of-age fantasies with magic and swords than Gene Wolfe writes The Wizard Knight and you have to take it all back and admit there's something left in the subgenre.

So I'll answer twice but maybe it's the same answer, twice. First, it shouldn't be derivative. It should be its own thing. Erikson's massive Malazan series isn't like anything that came before it, not really. Brust writes about elves, but they ain't Tokein's, or D&amp;D's, or anyone else's. And when you pick up China Mieville, you probably haven't seen anything like it, ever. So, for fantasy, originality is key. (I mean, look at Patricia McKillip. Every darn book, she uses wizards, elves, dragons, forests, castles, and somehow she turns each one into a work of art, because she puts them together like no one else. Plus, her prose is absolutely beautiful.)

The other way to say that answer is to paraphrase a quote from Wolfe as related by Brust (I can't find the reference): the key to writing is to show the reader something cool, over and over. Skip the parts that aren't cool.

OK, and a third, less philosophical answer: as I get older, I find that characterization matters more and more. Doesn't have to be "realistic", just richely detailed, interesting, and believable within the story.

[PashaDawg]

Did you write a book, djo?

[BigandScary]

Ok, everyone here seems to be going over the same stuff, so let me add something new.
I would suggest, with most of my heart and a lease on my soul, the work of David Gemmel. Seriously, it is magical.

A relatively new auther that has grabbed me is Jim Butcher. His Dresdan Files stuff is good, and i really have enjoyed his new series, The Alera Codex. The first two are a little off, the second fixing the first one's mistakes but loseing the first ones sucesses, but the third brings everything good about the other two into a brilliant novel.

L.E. Moddessitt Jr. is a good writer, but each book is a 50/50 chance of genius or boredom. I really liked "THe Magic Engineer", but everyone is different.

Micheal Stackpole is hard to describe because his stuff starts out good, but it tends to get sidetracked.

Cook has been mentioned but I would like to concur. The Black Company is fantastic and his new books (Instrumentalities of the Night) are pretty good.

I would also like to express my opinions on Robert Jordan and Martin. One major point of a good writer is the ability to kill a developed character. Jordan and Martin are the two extremes in this. Jordan can't let them die and Martin kills them off like they're nothing. Something in between is the sweet spot, but both authers are still good, they just annoy me so.

[djo]

PashaDawg said:
Did you write a book, djo?



I've started once or twice but never got beyond a handful of chapters. I have written short stories, novelettes, and novellas. Only one was good enough to submit, but it was rejected by the few magazines I sent it to.

I am only somewhat better at writing fiction than I am at playing Dominions.

[HoneyBadger]

Sad to say, I'm going to be reading a lot lately, my hard drive died, so all I have is my work computer, and I can't play Dominions on that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Has anyone read the series of books the movie Night Watch is based on? I guess the originals are in Russian (as is the movie). I'm going to be checking them out.

[jutetrea]

I read "Night Watch", not impressed. Clunky writing, shaky premise. Good portion of that may be due to translation, but meh.

[Autochthon]

Nice thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Call me strange, but I found that reading one-off fantasy novels tend to be a bit weak in the background department.

So I tend to read historical mystery novels and RPG sourcebooks as a sort of "imaginative fertilizer", to better set the stage and tone of fantastic story-telling.

Both of these sources of writing DEMAND a level of precision and detail that I typically don't find in novels, due to space and plot constraints.

Unfortunately, you can't stop the story and ask for clarification in a novel. No Pause, Zoom or Rotate here, folks.

Specifically, I recommend the historical mysteries written by Stephen Saylor, Barry Hughart and the Brother Cadbury series.

For RPG Sourcebooks, you can't go wrong with Exalted, Ars Magica, ICE Middle-Earth, Earthdawn and Warhammer RPG.

And then, there's Samurai Cat...

Edit: And The Redeemer... both of which greatly contributed to my appreciation for gratuitous violence

[llamabeast]

And Vampire: The Masquerade! (and presumably the new version Vampire: The Requiem as well). I really love reading those books, I have about ten of them even though I have no intention of ever playing it (seems to me it would be a bit emo for my tastes). Actually I never play RPGs at all, but I do enjoy reading the books.

Edit: I mean the RPG rule/sourcebooks, not the novels - I read half a V:tM novel once and wasn't impressed. Seems to me the guys who write the RPGs are absolutely top of the line in their writing skill (after all, it's often considered one of the best RPGs around), whereas the kind of author who would accept that kind of franchise for a novel would, I suspect, not be the best. I don't know how fair that is though.

[Autochthon]

If we're taking Vampire, try checking out Vampire: The Middle Ages - it's a subset of the original Masquerade series.

It's got more of the mainstream "fantasy" feel, being actually set in the Middle Ages.

As for RPG writers and Fantasy writers, I honestly don't see why there has to be a distinction. It's not as if writers make all that much to be so specialized. At the very least, it might prove a useful springboard for aspiring writers, much like the phonebook mangas are for manga writers in Japan, or console games are becoming for musicians.

And it allows a greater body of potential writers to find a medium that plays to their particular tastes.

[llamabeast]

Read it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edit: That's "read" in the past tense rather than imperative sense! And yes, it's quite excellent.

[Serenity]

Robin Hobb.. The trilogy about a young royal assassin.. Man, ive read tons and tons of books and thats the best it gets..

[Endoperez]

Many, many good recommandations in here.

David Gemmel does wonders. I recently saw parts of the movie Sparta. His books are like "SPARTAAA!", except more hardcore. The Legend, especially, the book showing Druss the Axeman fighting his last battle, an impossible fight against unbeatable enemy, just an old man whose axe is no longer demon-possessed. And we see how the legends still pale before the man behind them. Awesome!

Naomi Novik - ah, dragonriders! "Captain Laurence of His Majesty's Navy, on Temeraire; I am at present unassigned." But not for long, as 20-ton dragons, especially ones as maneuverable or intelligent as Temeraire, can hardly be left unused while Napoleon's army marches undefeated through Europe and threatens Britain itself. Fantastic series.

Gene Wolfe, and his Wizard Knight duology. It is. I can't really describe it, but you should read it - it's a strange mix of excellent writing, weirdness and familiar stories.

Scott Lynch wrote an interesting low-fantasy story, Lies of Locke Lamora. A strange city and strange world, a league of tricksters, and a deal of bad luck. Nice, but not extraordinary.

Diana Wynne Jones writes for young adults, but that doesn't mean the books aren't good. I've especially enjoyed Dark Lord of Derkholm, even though the sequel isn't quite at the same level.

[Lingchih]

Gene Wolfe is the pre-eminent fantasy/sci-fi author of our day, and the Wizard Knight duology is an excellent example of his craft. I would recommend it heartily.

I don't know if he has been mentioned here, but the old grand master of fantasy is Jack Vance. His Tales of the Dying Earth is a classic (especially Cujel's Saga). It's the basis of much of the AD&amp;D magic system. And his Lyonesse trilogy is pure greatness. His books are mostly out of print and a bit hard to find, but you can usually find used copies on Amazon.

[Theonlystd]

This thread has added many a book to my wish list ..

Song of ice and fire .. Easily one of my favorites .

Start reading Robert Jordans series now you'd prolly finish all those books just in time for the last one..

Malazan is another good one..

Tho id call all 3 of those "heavy reading"

Tolkien is a given

Robert E Howards original Conan stories have been released unedited in a 3 book series .. Id say a must read for any fantasy fans ..



Now for some easier reading.. The Drizzt Saga in Forgotten Realms is enjoyable ..

Books set in the Warhammer world to esp the Gotrek And Felix series and the Dark Blade Series for the Pov from a "bad guy"

These are full of action but wont make you do any deep thinking ..

[Xietor]

It is unlikely Jordan ever completes his series. And to be honest its quality goes down rapidly after book 4.

"On March 23, 2006, Jordan disclosed in a statement[2] in a firm and optimistic tone that he has been diagnosed with primary amyloidosis with cardiomyopathy (cardiac amyloidosis), and that, with treatment, his median life expectancy is four years, though he says he intends to beat the statistics. He later posted on his Dragonmount blog to encourage his fans not to worry about him and that he intends to have a long and fully creative life, working for another 30 years.

He began chemotherapy treatment at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota in early April 2006.[3] Jordan is currently enrolled in a study using the drug Revlimid just approved for multiple myeloma but not yet tested on primary amyloidosis."

[Lingchih]

I would agree that the quality of Robert Jordan's books goes donw appreciably after book 4. I only hope that he can finish the final book, and that it is a resurgance of his earlier books in the series.

[Velusion]

Lingchih said:
Gene Wolfe is the pre-eminent fantasy/sci-fi author of our day, and the Wizard Knight duology is an excellent example of his craft. I would recommend it heartily.



A very good *writer* but not really a "storyteller". I liken his books to fantasy version of the later Melville. Symbolism out the wazoo. I haven't read the Wizard Knight though, just the Torturer and Latero books.


Lingchih said:
I don't know if he has been mentioned here, but the old grand master of fantasy is Jack Vance. His Tales of the Dying Earth is a classic (especially Cujel's Saga). It's the basis of much of the AD&amp;D magic system. And his Lyonesse trilogy is pure greatness. His books are mostly out of print and a bit hard to find, but you can usually find used copies on Amazon.



Vance is one of my top three favorite writers. Amazing stories/charactors. Hard to find his books though (which is a shame). George RR Martin has stated that Vance is HIS favorite fantasy/sci-fi author.

[Endoperez]

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=90

It seems Robert Jordan is dead.

[Xietor]

Robert Jordan Is Dead - The Wheel of Time Turns No More
News Type: Event — Seeded on Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:48 AM EDT
Read ArticleArticle Source: dragonmount.com
entertainment, literature, science-fiction, fantasy, author, novels, robert-jordan, wheel-of-time, the-dragon
Seeded by Killfile

It is with great sadness that I tell you that the Dragon is gone. RJ left us today at 2:45 PM. He fought a valiant fight against this most horrid disease. In the end, he left peacefully and in no pain. In the years he had fought this, he taught me much about living and about facing death. He never waivered in his faith, nor questioned our God’s timing. I could not possibly be more proud of anyone. I am eternally grateful for the time that I had with him on this earth and look forward to our reunion, though as I told him this afternoon, not yet. I love you bubba.

[Xietor]

Robert Jordan 1st 4 books in the wot series were extremely good. He was a great storyteller. But he will always be known for not being able to finish the series. It spun out of control on him.

Basic tenet of writing violated-outline. Outline. Outline.

[djo]

I read on another forum that he had been dictating notes and outlines so the series could be finished. So there is hope for closure for those who enjoyed his work.

[djo]

Velusion said:

Lingchih said:
Gene Wolfe is the pre-eminent fantasy/sci-fi author of our day, and the Wizard Knight duology is an excellent example of his craft. I would recommend it heartily.



A very good *writer* but not really a "storyteller". I liken his books to fantasy version of the later Melville. Symbolism out the wazoo. I haven't read the Wizard Knight though, just the Torturer and Latero books.




To be fair, he can be an obscure storyteller, but he can also be a clear one as well, if he chooses. The two series you mention (Book of the New Sun, Soldier in the Mist) are definitely among his most difficult to read (unreliable narrators, both). His Book of the Long Sun is crystal-clear. The Wizard Knight is somewhere in between; I'd say it's closer to the clear side than not. Book of the Short Sun, which follows Book of the Long Sun, is back to the obscure category.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Xietor said:
I wanted to share a few series that I found pretty good that maybe are off the beaten path a bit. So I will avoid the usual and obvious references to Wheel of Time, Tolkien, Feist etc.



"Goblin Quest" by Jim C. Hines (first in a series. Trilogy?)
"Sir Apropos of Nothing" by Peter David (first in a series. Finished trilogy.)

"Goblin Quest" follows the typical adventuring party from the perspective of Jig, a goblin, who is kept busy trying to stay alive and save his home from invaders. Humorous and well written.

"Sir Apropos of Nothing" isn't for everyone. The series follows the 'anti-hero' who people either love or hate. It's also highly satirical in nature. Books in this series start off on humorous note, such as the parody of Lord of the Rings in the second book, but somehow manage to sneak a serious and moving plot in there when you're not paying attention.

Amazon.com has various, better written reviews. These books are off the beaten path.

[jutetrea]

For an interesting (if not very good)read, try out Grunts by Mary Gentle, a fantasy novel from the perspective of the bad guys. Heroes fighting a bunch of orcs a la Warcraft - from the side of the orcs.

[Lingchih]

Have we mentioned Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, by Susanna Clarke? A bit overlong, but a fascinating book by any account. I believe it won the Hugo Award a few years ago.

[Beorne]

Xietor said:
It is unlikely Jordan ever completes his series. And to be honest its quality goes down rapidly after book 4.

"On March 23, 2006, Jordan disclosed in a statement[2] in a firm and optimistic tone that he has been diagnosed with primary amyloidosis with cardiomyopathy (cardiac amyloidosis), and that, with treatment, his median life expectancy is four years, though he says he intends to beat the statistics. He later posted on his Dragonmount blog to encourage his fans not to worry about him and that he intends to have a long and fully creative life, working for another 30 years.

He began chemotherapy treatment at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota in early April 2006.[3] Jordan is currently enrolled in a study using the drug Revlimid just approved for multiple myeloma but not yet tested on primary amyloidosis."



Jordan has died. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Aethyr]

I would add Michelle West's Sun Sword series, and the Hunter's Oath / Death duology to your list Edi.