Dud nations

[Tyrant]

Which, if any, nations do you think are "duds"- underpowered and/or too narrow to make a go of it in a competitive game without alot of luck or diplomatic success?

My list:

EA Ulm- a bad army and average casters, I just don't see anything to like. Half cold resistence, two move, forge bonuses and some stealth are all nice, but crome rims and a bad engine still make a bad car.

MA Ulm -Dom3 is a magic game with armies, not the other way around and MA Ulm is just a kinfe fighter in a gunfight. The heavy armor is halfway negated by the high encumbrance and costs so many resources that i seldom see much Black plate, people just build slightly more regular plate. The PD seems designed for a civil war as the fine arbalasts are just the thing for shooting your own super armored guys in the back and fire too slowly to be good against more the more lightly armored enemy. The national MR penalty is just insulting, not to mention seemingly unthematic. Shouldn't the anti-magic guys have extra MR? That's the way it always in in fantasy books. The forge bonus is great, but compared with so many of the other nations they seriously lack an excellent leader to put them on. Knights are ok, but don't have enough HP to be real thugs.

Despite all that, I have seen Ulm do well, and this one's the most debatable of the three.

MA Argatha- The other two Argathas rock, but this one seems to lack both a good army and good casters. There's decent capitol only unit and caster, but that's it and that don't cut it in the Middle Age. In DomII Golem Cult was perhaps the best theme, but are big stone things really sufficient to conquer the world without some very lethal backup? They can hold the line, but something has to kill the enemy, and I don't know what they have that can do that.

[Evilhomer]

I would add the early age water nations, in particular EA r'lyeh and EA oceania - having all your decent troops and mages stuck in the water is just not a good thing. Looking at EA r'lyehs mages in comparison to MA r'lyeh there is just so much thats worse (only 2 misc slots, water only, less random paths), and this in an age where most nations are stronger than in MA.

[Meglobob]

I have played alot of nations now and everyone of those nations has had something about them that I like or could be useful in winning a game. So for me I have yet to come across a 'dud' nation.

I totally disagree on MA Agartha, that nation has 2 capital only recruitable SC's, a warrior and a mage. Few other MA nations have that. It has the golem cult. Also umbrals, stealthy, etheral only cost 2D gems. Its sacreds are pretty good troops with a strong bless. Its mages are perfect for casting magma eruption which is a hugely devestating battlefield spell, other spells like earthquake, destruction, bladewind, invulnerability, ironskin, stoneskin, weapons of sharpness etc are all good.

It also has a 5E gem/turn income from the word go, a good strategy with this nation could be research to earth deep blood well, cast that. Then research constuction to the forge of ancients and get that up with your now huge earth income. Then go onto unique artifacts to grab as many as possible.

Finally, MA Agartha has access to skull mentor and lightless lantern, so is a decent research nation.

All in all pretty good if you ask me.

I have never played EA or MA Ulm so cannot comment on those. I have seen both do well in MP.

If I had to put forward a 'dud' nation it would be LA Atlantis, I have never played it but I looked at it once and it struck me as very mundane. Can anyone convince me, why I should give LA Atlantis a go? A shame because EA Atlantis is one of my favourite nations.

[Salamander8]

I'm currently trying LA Atlantis in an SP game for the first time and so far they aren't bad. The lack of long range missle troops stings of course, but many of the rank and file have magic weapons and the Assartut's weapons also cause weakness. So far the only thing I have any real problem with is that the Angakots are only recruitable at home.

I have not tried EA Oceania, but I just finished a very long SP game as EA R'Lyeh. I had to heavily rely on indy troops when out of the water. The Gibodai and Giboleths are great in the water, but you can't take them out like you can Ilithids and this is a major obstacle to early land colonization. The lack of magic item slots on the Aboleths and Mind Lords, on top of the fact that 1 of them has to be an amulet of the fish to take them on land, also makes them less useful than the Ilithid commanders that only lack feet. Also as MA R'Lyeh (I haven't tried LA R'Lyeh yet), you can get the free hybrids in coastal forts and build various hybrids in any land fort whereas EA R'Lyeh is stuck with whatever land troops you can find. The free Polypal spawns that the Polypal Mothers and the Polypal Queen give you are stuck in the water too. I enjoy playing R'Lyeh, but it took me several false starts to get a victory as EA R'Lyeh.

[Micah]

EA Ulm is doing extremely well in both games I'm in. Their troops are probably the best non-sacred troops in EA...a bit resource heavy, but most of them are still a 1:1 gold/resource ratio. Their mages aren't obviously powerful but they work very well as (de)buffers...Flaming arrows, strength of giants, legions of steel, destruction, etc. and can then go to town with some basic-but-functional evocation spells. The cold resistance is a bonus, not a feature, and it lets them take a cold-3 scale a little bit more easily since they won't have penalty fatigue from cold...and everyone loves more pretender points.

I haven't played as them myself, but I did watch their basic troops butcher one of my kitted out niefel jarls in a single round of combat. They're not at all weak.

[johnarryn]

I am playing EA Ulm in one MP game (War is Hell) and actually doing very well... I will put in the caveat that I was lucky in my starting placement and was able to gain a large number of provinces very quickly.

That being said, I feel EA Ulm has alot going for it. Their troops are rather good, I feel. Warrior Maiden, Steel Maidens and Shield Maidens are all cheap, stealthy and quite decent. With a good fortress you can recruit many in one turn. The forge bonus is very nice, especially once you forge hammers.

Yes, Ulm's mages are weak, but they do make up for this somewhat in versatility. Access to Death, Earth, Fire, Nature, Air and Water is nothing to sniff at... especially given that in EA you have a decent chance of finding some indy mages to help you out. That being said, Ulm is probably weaker than most in the Late Game, but i wouldnt write them off completely.

[Xietor]

Meg,

(i only play ma, so all of my comments by default, are limited to ma).

it depends. MP if you are argatha and start out next to vanaheim on a smaller map, and the person playing vanaheim is your equal, you can forget about reaching stage 2 of the game.

Ulm, I do think ulms low mr is backwards. And I do think they should should be able to produce heavily armored troops at a lower esource cost.

Ideally, Ulm is a warrior race, a race of steel. They should get mr bonus, and their troops morale should be high, not average. They should really have the best infantry in the game, but they have among the worst. Their description makes me think of Sparta, highly trained troops. But for some reason, arcosphale has better infantry, better armor, mr, morale.

I think ulm should have such good melee units, it does not need magic. But they are extremely vulnerable to magic, their troops take tons of resources to build, despite the forge bonus etc, they are slow, their supposed great strength and training still does not allow them to do more than plod under the weight of their armor, and their morale is a lowly 10 with no way to boost it(low priests, no standard bearer).

I have played ulm, and can do well with ulm sp. Good players can do well with any set of cards dealt. But I am disappointed from a role playing standpoint, that Ulm is not the master of melee combat.

Take away their spies, seige engineers, drain scale bonus, and make their troops the best the humans have to offer. If any race should be able to ignore research and march to victory based solely on its armies it should be ulm, not vanaheim!

[VedalkenBear]

For me, EA Ulm is one of the strongest, not one of the weakest, nations. They expand _very_ easily in the early game with their Axe Throwers. And their Magic isn't all that bad.

[PvK]

I think EA Ulm is strong. Shield Maidens are fast to recruit and can defeat most opponents without getting hurt. Their archers are also good. They can rush and defeat many opponents early without even needing magic, or just expand very quickly.

I've just spent the morning trying MA Agartha, and I think they're strong too. Their human troops are like a variant of MA Ulm, which can be quite strong when used well, and are good for steady expansion. Also they have armored amphibians, who can expand quickly against underwater independents. Then magic summons and not so bad mages, national summons, Golem Cult bonus... they seem pretty good to me.

MA Ulm is one of my favorites, but I agree they seem a bit weak, especially with competition like MA Agartha. I don't agree that the armor advantage is negated by the encumbrance, or that their morale is a problem - the counter to that is using a large enough army, at which point it survives, gains experience, and becomes a tough meat grinder when used correctly. I agree that I wish they had an MR bonus rather than a penalty, though they've always been that way, and they do now have a national spell to make up for that point. The knights can be used as thugs if you do it carefully and have the stomach for it. HP aren't everything. But in general ya, Ulm is in trouble because of all the easy-access powerful magic in Dominions, as it always has been. I would say though that they are the weakest of the three you mentioned. But I still really enjoy playing them, especially in SP.

[HoneyBadger]

I think EA R'lyeh (Aboleths) is difficult if you're inexperienced with them-and even if you are, but I certainly wouldn't call them a "dud-nation". Yes, they could use some help, but they're not wreaked, just challenging.

[Shovah32]

EA Rlyeh and oceania arent great. MA Mictlan isnt bad but is weak compared to its EA and LA counterparts.

[HoneyBadger]

EA R'lyeh needs better troops-most of the troops they get are lousy and unnecessary. The only ones worth anything that aren't Aboleths are the Shambler Thralls, and they aren't great.

If they got slave trolls-even as a national summon-and "rogue" mindlords *do* get them when you find Aboleths in neutral provinces, they'd be much, much better.

It wouldn't hurt if there were some kind of a sacred version of the Aboleth/Mind-Lord, too, since there are young sacred Aboleths.

I'd also really like to see some better Province Defense for these guys, too-because they're a particularly slow nation, and need it.

The biggest problem with Aboleths is that the only good units they get are Mind-Lords. They're great units, admittedly, but they can't be a nation by themselves.

[Salamander8]

HoneyBadger said:
EA R'lyeh needs better troops-most of the troops they get are lousy and unnecessary. The only ones worth anything that aren't Aboleths are the Shambler Thralls, and they aren't great.

If they got slave trolls-even as a national summon-and "rogue" mindlords *do* get them when you find Aboleths in neutral provinces, they'd be much, much better.

It wouldn't hurt if there were some kind of a sacred version of the Aboleth/Mind-Lord, too, since there are young sacred Aboleths.

I'd also really like to see some better Province Defense for these guys, too-because they're a particularly slow nation, and need it.

The biggest problem with Aboleths is that the only good units they get are Mind-Lords. They're great units, admittedly, but they can't be a nation by themselves.


All very good points.

The PD only worked for me when backed up by mobile forces or for piecemeal attacks. The morale of the non-lobotimised slave troops is nominally 8 and being that most of the PD are such slave troops that doesn't help. MA R'Leyh's PD at least gets the Lobo Guards which don't rout.

The Shambler Thralls I had posted about earlier. I like them overrall and only needing 1 resource and having 50 morale is great, but they get eaten alive by arrow fire, and they are mindless so accrue no xp. Once I had empowered more of my Mind Lords with air and summoned an Air Queen I had Arrow Fend up quite often to help with this.

Mind Lords are really nice except for the lack of magic item slots problem. I had a ton of amulets of the fish made up for these guys. I'd hate to try EA R'Lyeh without having access to air magic though. I had started my Polypal Queen with heavy magic, including some air and through an event acquired an indy mage with air that I empowered a bit to help with item creation too.

There are several ways to bring air breathers down below the waves, but barring the self-only amulet of the fish, there is no way to bring the water breathers out. That severely cuts the effectiveness of the Gibodais and Giboleths.

I don't feel that EA R'Lyeh is a straight-up dud, but they were much more difficult to win with than the other nations I have won Dom3 with so far (MA R'Lyeh, LA Argartha, EA Lanka, EA Yomi).

[Sombre]

Hmm. A good topic. I'm more interested in knowing which units and summons people think are duds, so I might make a new thread.

[SelfishGene]

No dud love for MA Mictlan?

I'm neither very fond of LA Ctis either.

EA Oceania and EA Ryleh make up for their weak amphib capacity by being much stronger underwater than EA Atlantis, and they should dominate the waves.

I would hesitate to call LA Arco a dud, but they do lose quite a lot of power and gain only a little variety in their troops. I like them in SP but i wonder if they're not rather weak in Multi.

As i've said before, Marverni is a very very weak nation as well that has all but one unit (the Druid) that you must base your whole strategy around. Their basic troops are worse than indie Barbarians. Good luck surviving without an Awake pretender.

I actually think EA Arco might be rather weak in all honestly, although i can see players doing well with them. If you play them thematically (3 magic/3 sloth), and make best use of philosophers, your still sort of stuck "rolling" for good randoms on your Mystics. Depending upon what randoms you get your game could be very strong or very weak.

[HoneyBadger]

I wouldn't by any means call EA Oceania weak. They have the single *best* sacred troop in the whole game, and Triton Kings with 4 water right off the bat.

Run well, they should be the Helheim of the ocean.

If they were amphibious, they'd be the best nation in the game, in my opinion.

R'lyeh Aboleths is easily the weakest of the bunch.

EA Atlantis could really use more national summons-especially weird, squishy/flappy ones, to go along with that whole Lovecraft jones-overall, though, I'd say they're the most balanced water nation.

[DrPraetorious]

I tend to agree about ME Agartha.

I should note that ME Agartha does *not* get skull mentors. Those guys have a whopping 2.5% chance of DD, and they're capital only.

This also means that, unlike every other era of Agartha, you can't cast darkness, which is your killer ap. This isn't to say that ME Agartha doesn't have some strengths. Those statues really are quite excellent.

Ulm may be slightly underpowered (Master Smiths should probably have 100% on that random), but not hugely so.

EA Ulm gets superior troops and doesn't pay more gold for them. They're also only resource heavy if you want them to be. They max out at 2 in most paths, but they get every element, nature and death.

EA Arco is not weak - it is *difficult*. It can produce more research than any other nation, and it has a great variety of magic (every element, astral, nature) incl. the ability to form communions. Your military kinda bites but not so badly that it can't be salvaged.

EA Marverni, on the other hand, has an utterly dreadful military, and no research bonus. That's a weak nation. If they had philosophers they'd be fine, but they don't - which means they're stuck with magic that-will-eventually-be-great but you-won't-survive-to-use-it. I've never seen Marverni survive the initial rush of wars. Possibly this is just because experienced players avoid playing it.

The other nations that could use some help are ME T'ien Ch'i and Bandar Log. ME T'ien Ch'i isn't terrible, but it gets none of the cool stuff available to the other eras of T'ien Ch'i. Bandar Log has the same problem as Marverni, although at least you get elephants.

Shinuyama is also kinda weak. You can do darkvision+darkness, which is cool, but all of your stuff is just overpriced.

[Xietor]

My issue with ME Ulm is more thematic. They are not the best race or even in the top 5, of sword and steel. that is their theme, but put one of ulms infantry up against one from arcos and they suck. Ulm's infantry should be the best, best armor, best morale, best overall, and it is not close.

Even Pangaea's infantry, not counting the recuperation, is much better. While not quite as much prot(16 is still good),
it has more hp and much much higher defense, mr, and more hps as well.

So my beef is that every race should fear Ulm's infantry, but in reality whose does? Very few.

[Sombre]

I don't really agree that the theme of Ulm ME is supposed to be ultra elite soldiers. They're an armour nation and they have some scary knights but nothing in the infantry descriptions makes me think anything other than standard feudal man-at-arms infantry. You compare them with Sparta, but I just don't see anything like that in the descriptions.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, I don't have a problem with them not being Spartans, but I'd like to ask the question-provided they're not, then what *are* they? They started out Cimmerians, ended up Carpathians, what's in the middle? What qualities make them a distinct nation, rather than just a placeholder?

[Sombre]

Super-heavy armour nation of smiths. Based on germanic european culture.

Not all the nations in Dom3 have to exactly match up with a mythology or historical period.

[Gandalf Parker]

Is this supposed to be duds for multiplaying on blitz maps (small maps, few players)? I dont think you can expect agreements unless you set the parameters. Duds for MP blitz are very different than duds for RPG or for large maps or for alliances.

[HoneyBadger]

No, they don't have to "match" anything, but that's not what I meant.

If they *are* a "super-heavy armour nation of smiths", what does that translate into? What does it mean? Can they make iron constructs? are they mounted knights? Are they all Elrics armed with Stormbringers? Do they capture or employ Jotuns, cover them with beetle-armour and force them to fight?

Why should I want to play them over something else?

My point is that apparently they aren't very distinct or interesting, if they can't be said to *be* something beyond a description of their clothing and employment.

Such things might "make a man" but they don't make a national character.

So, who are they?

[Edi]

For an indepth analysis of EA Ulm units, see this thread (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=498748).

I do not consider EA Ulm weak. It has some problem with its magics, namely low levels but good versatility. It has good units as long as you only use the female units and archers and possibly the iron and steel warriors.

Marverni could conceivably be a good nation to play, but it requires production scales to be able to pump out the good units. Ambibate Noble Warrior is one of the best EA infantry units. If you also have a F9 bless, the boar warriors provide with quite the shock potential early on.

I must say that I have not played very many nations at all, though I have a fair idea of strengths and weaknesses due to my familiarity with the units from making the DB.

I will also note that if some nation does not suit a particular player's play style, chances are that the player will suck with even a strong nation compared to something that does suit him.

[Sombre]

They /are/ a nation of smiths with super heavy armour. Have you actually ever played as them? No other nation has a selection of national troops like that. No other nation has forgebonus like that. So to answer your question, what does that translate into - it translates into MA Ulm. Plenty of people like their flavour. Maybe there's no accounting for taste. There's more to them than smiths and armour, it's just a general description, like EA Pangaea being 'the woodland halfmen'.

There are a few nations whose themes don't appeal to me in the slightest. To me they seem generic, uninteresting, cliched,... but I accept there are people who like them.

[Gandalf Parker]

EA Ulm has 6 stealth units and 4 non-stealth. And 3 stealth leaders with 1 non-stealth. Heavy on forest and mountain skills w/ defense against cold. That all seems built heavily into the theme. I suspect that discussing its pros and cons while ignoring that is going to miss the point.

If all nations are going to be compared on the basis of army-to-army open warfare then you will be able to seperate nations into great or duds but I dont think the comparison will mean much to the game in general.

[Xietor]

The description of Ulm as a race, says out of the ashes of Ermor they arose, and they disdain magic, and even priests, choosing to forge an empire on steel.

So they get crappy mages, crappy priests, poor mr, and then they do not even get the best units that rely on steel? Give me a break. And their units are resource hogs. maybe those great forgers of armor could make some lighter armor, just as strong, but less cumbersome so they can have better movement and defense.

maybe since they do not use preists(sermon of courage), they get superior training in steel, are more disciplined, and do not rout easily? But no, they have average morale.

True, they have good knights, but a nation with a few smiting priests make short work of them. Why should arcos get superior infantry to Ulm?

They have far superior priests, priests that heal afflictions no less, they have elephants, they have superior mages, access to broad magic, mind burn early on, and paralyze not far down the road. To top it off their infantry
is just grossly superior to ulm's in every way. they are not crippled with mr 9 either.

lol, and they even put ulms national spell to increase mr down a line it never uses and at 5th level no less. Cut ulm some small slack and stick it in construction(forge, makes sense you would research construction). And it is not like ulm can research well anyway with drain 3. Its own mages suck at research, and any indies you find suffer from drain 3.

And Ulm is not a race that should have to research. They rely on steel remember? They disdain magic and priests. Ok, that is great, do not make them rely on some spell to be viable.

[Sombre]

When you read 'steel' you clearly think 'trained from birth to be elite fighters'. When I read 'steel' I think they rely on their superior arming technology. Which would be the forgebonus and the availability of super heavy armour.

I'm not claiming that MA Ulm is good, or comparing them with anyone else, I just don't think anything in the descriptions indicates they should be amazingly skilled or brave fighters. What it does indicate to me is that they like to wear a lot of armour, they have more advanced weapons (such as the arbalest etc). And yes, they are resource hogs. That's a big theme of the nation.

[HoneyBadger]

I think EA Ulm is fine-it's got a lot of character, and I know it's armored barbarians with great smiths but not a lot of magic. Very easy to understand.

I was thinking about Middle-Era Ulm though, and why not have units equipped with the really excellent weapons that gave Romans so much trouble-like the Dacian Falx/Thracian Rhomphaia or the Falcata/Machiara, for instance.

Commanders could be equipped with useful low-power magical weapons-with the most powerful being a warrior weilding a herald's lance and riding a plate-armored elephant.

[normalphil]

I think MA Ulm is pretty much in its zone (even if the MR lowering got excessive; why are they below-average MR that national spells and drain-scales bring up to average? Shouldn't they be average MR that national spells and drain scales bring up to above average? How does a race of humans all of a sudden become suceptable to magic on a genetic level? Nobody else is.), but there's something that just never made sense to me; it's like there's this small hole in the faction-concept. No 'banner' units or commanders. Not even a hero with that effect. Everybody and their mother gets a unit like that, and in a faction when it fits without being in anyway a stretch, there isn't one.

[Evilhomer]

yes EA r'lyeh and EA oceania can kill atlantis, but that doesn't mean that it makes up for their complete lack of good amphibious units. Basically as someone said before you are forced to stick with indies and some summons when you go ashore, and thats not viable in a MP game. No nation are wrecked, and even the water nations can win a mp game. However they are good contestants for the weakest nation in EA, unless the water section of an mp game is huge.

[Endoperez]

If MA Ulm should get a bonus, I'd suggest making the Black Plate armors and helmets instead of Full Helmets and Full Plates of Ulm. Magical armor is immune to armor destruction, which would let the Master Smiths use Armor of Achilles/Destruction without having to worry about hitting their own units, and the Black Steel Helmet doesn't have a defense penalty, giving all better units of Ulm 1 more defense.

MA Ulm has many good abilities;
- Crossbowmen prot 14, 12 hp, 10 att +1 from shortsword and an arbalest for just 10g/24r. They can go toe-to-toe with many other nations' infantry troops.
- Flails and Morning Stars, making them deadly against all shield-bearers. The flails' multiple attacks also lower enemy defence quite fast, enabling the heavy hitters to strike down hard-to-hit foes as long as Ulm has the advantage in numbers.
- Black Knights and Sappers to act as a mapmove 2 army. Sappers are too expensive to be used this way except in emergencies, but if you haven't happened to find anything else, you'll be glad to have them.

Their weaknesses are:
- Very few ways of increasing morale. Pikeneers have morale 11, Guardians morale 14, Black Knights morale 15, and mixing those with your normal units is about all you can do.
- Slow armies: slow to make, slow to move, slow in killing their enemies due to no high att/high dam units
- No easy access to summons that'd make good thugs, and little reason to use commanders other than Black Lords as thugs.
- Heavy armor and the normal encumberance of 3. They'd benefit from having encumberance 2 of the Machakans in addition to their +2 hp and +1 str.


There were few mods back in DomII that boosted Ulm. The Master Smiths have since received that 10% random, but if you think something is still needed I can warm up my old Ulm Upgrade mod. Noblemen with prec 12, Warlords equal to Lord Guardians (and recruitable everywhere), slightly cheaper Lord Guardians... and perhaps the Full Plate of Ulm to Black Steel Full Plate change as well.

[Arralen]

(MA) Ulm

As Endo correctly points out, the discussion about the "standard" Ulm goes back to the days of Dom 2.
Check out my "Ulm beefed up" mod and thread (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=320906&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1) from 2004.

Interestingly enough, the improved smithes I did in the mod got taken over to vanilla Dom 3 by the devs. Armor got some improvements in general, and the "Full Plate of Ulm" even more so.

Not enough IMHO, though, therefore I'm going to revamp my mod for Dom 3.
Thanks for reminding me of it - stay tuned, shouldn't take too long.

Keep adding suggestions here...

[Sombre]

Well that's given me some ideas for a balance mod I'm working on based on the CB template.

[Endoperez]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I'm almost finished updating my old Ulm Upgrade mod, so I guess we'll have 3 "make Ulm better" mods floating around soon!

[DrPraetorious]

I do not believe that units that default to black steel armor are actually immune to destruction - or that the game even keeps track of which default armor is "magic". The description may refer to magic-items-as-armor, which are not removed from inventory. You can get the broken-armor icon anyway, not sure what it actually does to you.

I propose a fourth fix to Ulm. My preference would be to give Ulm national spells that encourage it to use the units it already has.

- effective, low-research, low precision, non-armor-piercing damage spells for the smiths. Improved versions of Magma Bolts, basically. These would be deadly spells if you have tough units, because you need not worry about friendly fire.

- since Ulm despises both magic and organized religion, they should have anti-type spells for magic beings and for sacred units.

- spells to give haste (not quickness!), recuperation and offensive bonuses to large numbers of infantry. Further boosting the protection of your stuff is deeply pointless.

I'm also working on new and powerful national spells for Marverni and ME Agartha, but I'm waiting for the new patch at the moment.

[Dedas]

I don't agree that it is pointless to raise their protection additionally as there is a big difference between 20 and 25 for instance. Have anyone of you even tried using legions of steel? Also iron will is pretty low level (3) and it is in the same school as gnome lore that your smiths also can cast. After that you obviously have tempering the will which is cheap and bloody excellent for Ulm, a spell that follows the nation between the ages. And don't cast it once but a lot of times as magic resistance negates it on your own troops and you probably have drain 3 when playing MA Ulm because it doesn't affect your smiths research.

And don't forget that pikes ignore shields also so it is actually not so hard to hit knights for example. They also have a morale of 11, which means that they will stay in the fight for a while raising enemies fatigue. So the thing to do is of course to have flail guys, hammerers and battle axes behind them set to hold and attack. A tip is to use the ones with less armor as they have more APs and higher defense whilst the now fatigued enemy have a lot less so they won't hit them so often anyways.

Another thing not to forget is the production bonus Ulm gets in the fortresses - so build a lot of fortresses! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Its troops only cost 10 gold anyways.

[Meglobob]

One further point on 'dud' nations, MP is a pretty ruthless playing environment, if a nation gets percieved by a significant amount of people as weak, then in MP it becomes a easy target.

I think I have seen some signs of this in MP with Marverni and the Ulms being targeted early on and eliminated.

In the next patch I believe Helheim is being weakened slightly, so in future patches shouldn't Marverni/Ulms be strengthened slightly, on the lines of Endoperez's and Dr Praetorius suggestions?

Mods strenghening weak nations are always welcome but will they get used in MP? Also in SP, such mods are not needed as the AI is more fun to play against with a weaker nation, I try to give the AI every chance/advantage I can.

[Endoperez]

DrPraetorious said:
I do not believe that units that default to black steel armor are actually immune to destruction - or that the game even keeps track of which default armor is "magic". The description may refer to magic-items-as-armor, which are not removed from inventory. You can get the broken-armor icon anyway, not sure what it actually does to you.



You're right in that black steel armors aren't immune to armor destruction. Found out when updating my mod, now posted in the mod forum in the "Dud nation mods" thread.

Broken armor tag means that all armor is prot 0, and that shields are useless. Prot 0 Black Knights are a sad sight. It goes away when the units end turn in a province with unused resources, but I don't know how many resources it takes to fix a piece of armor.

The spell ideas are all nice. Which schools would you put them at? Would the anti-magic being and anti-sacred unit spells be in Thaumaturgy, giving Ulm a reason to research towards Tempering the Will, or would you move that one to some other school?

[Sombre]

I agree the adding protection to high protection units seems to work very well - same theory as the high def van units having Water blessing.

Meglobob: You don't have to use the mod in SP when you're playing that nation, but it will help the AI out if you're playing against them and /they/ have that nation. I basically only play SP but I'm still very interested in balance.

[DrPraetorious]

Obviously it requires a certain amount of thought, but here's a first draft. I'm going to wait until the next patch before I do any more actual coding and testing. Let me know what you think.

Construction 3, Sparks. The master smith shatters an earth gem in his mailed fist, sending the fragments hurtling into the enemy.
EF, 100 fatigue. 15 effects + 5 per level of earth magic. 15 points of fire damage (not armor piercing), precision -3. Very long range.

Construction 5, Purified Lance. A lance of purified steel is sent hurtling towards the enemy at tremendous speed, striking unerringly, inflicting massive damage, especially to demons and undead.
EE, 100 fatigue. Pre 100. 50 points of physical holy damage.

Construction 7, Shrapmetal. A rain of shattered metal fragments falls on the entire battlefield.
EEE, 200 fatigue. AoE entire battlefield. 15 points of physical damage.

Thaumaturgy 3, Word of Steel. The magic-draining properties of iron are deadly to beings of the spheres. Words endowed with their power are a weapon against which these unnatural beings have no defense.
EE, 50 fatigue. Does 25 points of untyped damage to a single magical being. 100 Pre. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Thaumaturgy 4, Bane Metal. Hammers and manacles are used in a sympathetic rite to symbolize the dominance of iron over false Gods and their idols, which are shattered and bound. Holy warriors who see their icons treated such, if theylack the will to resist the magic, will find themselves bound and their bones shattered.
EEEE, 200 fatigue. Strikes all hostile sacred units. Magic resistance negates easily. Cripples and also inflicts false fetters. If I can add side effects in the new patch, this will be two effects so targets can suffer one or both conditions.
Thaumaturgy 6, Iron Rage. (Buff, all friendly units, MR+).
Thaumaturgy 7, Purity of Iron. (Buff, all friendly units, MR+)

I have to decide what the buffs do. Problem - Berserk and Haste are two different effect #s, so I can't combine them unless I can give spells side effects.

[Dedas]

Cool spells, but shouldn't sparks cost an earth gem?

[Meglobob]

Sombre said:Meglobob: You don't have to use the mod in SP when you're playing that nation, but it will help the AI out if you're playing against them and /they/ have that nation. I basically only play SP but I'm still very interested in balance.



Good point! Yea, those mods would be really useful, thanks for pointing this out, will use them in that context, to make the AI stronger in SP play.

[Baalz]

Well, I'm not going to comment on Ulm as I haven't really played them in EA or MA, but I am surprised that more people haven't mentioned MA Mictlan. They loose all the best things about being Mictlan (blood, cheap researchers) and gain absolutely nothing. Basically the ONLY thing MA Mictlan has going for it is recruit everywhere Jaguar warriors and good luck with that once your opponents get one of the many great jaguar warrior counters (ever seen blade wind cast on them?) I can't figure out any way to play them competitively.

Now, EA R'yleh I have to strongly disagree is a dud, but you do have to play them quite differently. They have very strong defensive capabilities (in the water) but their real offensive power is the sneak attack. Nobody on land wants to bring the war into R'yleh's waters, and because the water provinces are usually so much bigger they consequently have a very long border that they don't need to worry too much about defending and very good mobility. Aboleths have strong astral and water plus good hp and life draining, that's all you need for a thug capable of teleporting and taking out most PD singlehandedly with no equipment other than possibly an amulet of the fish (body ethereal, personal luck, quicken self, astral shield, breath of winter, attack closest). The trick to EA R'yleh is knowing full well you can't carry on a head to head fight on the land with an evenly matched opponent...so don't. Use your natural water defenses and long border to watch for opportunities to sneak attack, and in MP leverage this to cultivate allies to help you carry the fight on land (ie need help with that war you're in against Pangea?). Don't attack until you can cause enough damage in your initial attack (swarming over your long border and teleporting in aboleths everywhere just when your target committed most of his troops elsewhere) that it cripples your enemies ability to counterattack. This can be amplified by a withering barrage of mind hunts- also best served as a surprise. You've got to think of EA R'yleh like a submarine- surface and fire at a battleship head on and you're gonna lose every time, but if you play to your strengths your opponents won't know you're there until it's too late.

[Xietor]

I love endperez thoughts, if you can make Wardens(warlords) recruitable everywhere mod, that sounds like a mod that i would play ulm with.

With all due respect, more spells is not something Ulm should need. There ought to be 1 race, where its strength is its army, and that race should be Ulm. They hate magic, they rely on steel, so i say boost their units so they in fact, and not in theory, rely on cold steel.

But the spell idea in the construction line are nice. It is thematic that forge masters would research construction.

Giving them a warden at every castle would help, as they at least would have a decent thug with decent mr. I think there mr needs to be 11, and there morale raised to 12. Remove that ridiculous national spell, and boost their morale.

The Black Knights would be formidable with a decent mr.

I am going to try endoperez' ulm mod! Thanks.

[calmon]

Baalz said:
Well, I'm not going to comment on Ulm as I haven't really played them in EA or MA, but I am surprised that more people haven't mentioned MA Mictlan. They loose all the best things about being Mictlan (blood, cheap researchers) and gain absolutely nothing.



At least they still have the cheap priest researchers. In MA with a 100% random magic (FWSN).

[Baalz]

Oh also MA Argatha has some pretty good stuff going for it. Ubrals have some pretty wicked combos (gift of reason, iron warriors), the sacred statues are insanely tough for early game and can easily carry you through midgame with a good blessing. Plus the powerful earth mages pack a good punch mid game (earth quake, blade wind, or destruction depending on what you're facing). Skull mentors ARE easy because what they do have is dark knowledge, and it only costs 30 death (4 skull mentors) to empower somebody to 2D if you haven't got a random pick. Good research (skull mentors plus lightless lanterns) and several solid non-unique SC chasises can be a strong late game if you play it right. Also, because of their solid summons early, mid, and late game they can go with fairly crappy scales and depend on the summons for the core of their army.

[Endoperez]

Dedas said:And don't forget that pikes ignore shields also so it is actually not so hard to hit knights for example.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif And just a while ago I wondered why people didn't know Morningstar had the Flail bonus...

Praetorius:

Sparks is nice, although earth gem to fire damage is a bit odd.

Purified Lance/Shrapmetal are strange because they're very powerful evocation spells put into Construction. Word of Steel seems fine as long as it isn't armor-negating. Bane Metal is just strange. I agree with Xietor in that giving Ulm powerful spells doesn't feel like a proper answer, although I could make an exception with a Word of Steel-type spell.

Earth Power/Boots of Antaeus are a good example of Earth giving reinvigoration. Haste would be another good ability. Bigger versions of Legions of Steel/Strength of Giants would be nice.

Xietor:
Warlords are like Lord Guardians, not like Lord Wardens. 15 hp, 13 att/str, 11 def, morale 16, mag res 9. Protection 22/22 and Standard 10, which Black Lords and Lord Guardians also have in the mod. Basically, they're Black Lords who can be given boots (for flying, reinvigoration or resistance purposes), or when you can't afford the gold or the resources (70 g and about 36 r against 110 g and about 70 r).

[Dedas]

Well,
"Construction 3, Sparks. The master smith shatters an earth gem in his mailed fist, sending the fragments hurtling into..."

So I thought it should cost an earth gem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


I am right about the pike aren't I? I think I got it from you somewhere.

Here it is:
"Pikes have base damage of 5, so they aren't that good at piercing heavy armor. Most cavalry units have rather high morale, so repel doesn't keep them from attacking, but as long as the pikeman can hit the knight he deals 1 point of repel damage. IIRC, shield parry doesn't affect repel, so it's usually attack 10+1(pike) against defense of 9 to 11 defense (heavy cavalry) or 11-13 (light/medium cavalry). Pikes can also parry lances and light lances."

Ok, I was kind of right, parry doesn't affect repel.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dom3&Number=483786&Forum=f 187

[DrPraetorious]

Sparks does cost an earth gem. That's why the fatigue is set to 100.

Earth Magic can go in construction if it wants - why is Legions of Steel in construction instead of alteration or enchantment? Weapons of sharpness, likewise? So, both Purified Lance and Shrapmetal work on constructed materials, so they can go in Construction if they want.

As for Ulm not wanting spells - well, that's fine, but I don't think it'll fix the problem. With a minor improvement in Ulm's military, especially a toughness related improvement, you still do most of your killing with Magma Eruptions.

It's a magic-heavy game. If you want Ulm to make more use of her troops, give her national-troop buffing spells.

[Endoperez]

Dedas said:
Well,
"Construction 3, Sparks. The master smith shatters an earth gem in his mailed fist, sending the fragments hurtling into..."

So I thought it should cost an earth gem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Gem use is directly linked to fatigue. My comment was meant to DrPraetorius, who said the spell's fatigue would be 100, and thus it would take one gem. I'm just wondering why the spell doesn't either deal physical damage or have F1E1 requirement.



I am right about the pike aren't I? I think I got it from you somewhere.

Here it is:
"Pikes have base damage of 5, so they aren't that good at piercing heavy armor. Most cavalry units have rather high morale, so repel doesn't keep them from attacking, but as long as the pikeman can hit the knight he deals 1 point of repel damage. IIRC, shield parry doesn't affect repel, so it's usually attack 10+1(pike) against defense of 9 to 11 defense (heavy cavalry) or 11-13 (light/medium cavalry). Pikes can also parry lances and light lances."

Ok, I was kind of right, parry doesn't affect repel.



Repel is just 1 point of damage, even though it's armor-negating. If Pike had the actual #flail ability (which it doesn't, according to Edi's list), pikes would have surprising offensive uses against e.g. knights. It's the difference of (att 10 against parry 12 [prot 18+shield 18]) or (att 10 against defense 7 [prot 18]) or so. They'd be even better against infantry using heavy shields, like Ermorian/Pythian legionnaires and, to a lesser extent, the various Hoplites. It's an interesting idea.

[Meglobob]

Baalz said:Now, EA R'yleh I have to strongly disagree is a dud, but you do have to play them quite differently. They have very strong defensive capabilities (in the water) but their real offensive power is the sneak attack. Aboleths have strong astral and water plus good hp and life draining, that's all you need for a thug capable of teleporting and taking out most PD singlehandedly with no equipment other than possibly an amulet of the fish (body ethereal, personal luck, quicken self, astral shield, breath of winter, attack closest). The trick to EA R'yleh is knowing full well you can't carry on a head to head fight on the land with an evenly matched opponent...so don't. Use your natural water defenses and long border to watch for opportunities to sneak attack, and in MP leverage this to cultivate allies to help you carry the fight on land (ie need help with that war you're in against Pangea?). Don't attack until you can cause enough damage in your initial attack (swarming over your long border and teleporting in aboleths everywhere just when your target committed most of his troops elsewhere) that it cripples your enemies ability to counterattack. This can be amplified by a withering barrage of mind hunts- also best served as a surprise. You've got to think of EA R'yleh like a submarine- surface and fire at a battleship head on and you're gonna lose every time, but if you play to your strengths your opponents won't know you're there until it's too late.



So your a submarine and I am a battleship, in that case where are my destroyers with the depth charges? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Endoperez]

DrPraetorious said:
As for Ulm not wanting spells - well, that's fine, but I don't think it'll fix the problem. With a minor improvement in Ulm's military, especially a toughness related improvement, you still do most of your killing with Magma Eruptions.



Ulm wants to use spells, of course. However, I'd rather like to see new spells that everyone can use, but which only Ulm can excel with. Your Sparks would be a spell that Earth/Fire mages could use with heavy troops, and the nation using it would also need some Earth income. MA Agartha has almost the same mages (W1 instead of 10%FAES random), but as the nations are similar and both've been called duds in this thread boosting it won't be a problem. To avoid E3F1 and better mages from abusing it, it'd have to scale much more slowly as a non-restricted spell. Otherwise it could probably stay as you wrote it. Apart from an occasional Abysian or perhaps EA/LA Agarthan mage casting it, it wouldn't see much use.

[Sombre]

Endoperez said:
Repel is just 1 point of damage, even though it's armor-negating. If Pike had the actual #flail ability (which it doesn't, according to Edi's list), pikes would have surprising offensive uses against e.g. knights. It's the difference of (att 10 against parry 12 [prot 18+shield 18]) or (att 10 against defense 7 [prot 18]) or so. They'd be even better against infantry using heavy shields, like Ermorian/Pythian legionnaires and, to a lesser extent, the various Hoplites. It's an interesting idea.



Yes it is. I think pikes are currently rather underpowered and their seemingly most natural use, versus cavalry, doesn't actually work out. I rarely build pike units when others are available for roughly the same cost, because repel never seems to do much for me. Now if pikes had some other hook, such as flail bonus,... well that would make them rather more interesting. Is there some other bonus that could be given to them to make them more effective against cavalry and other very offensive units? Perhaps a simple defence boost would make sense? I mean it would just be like improving the repel effect - keeping your pikey alive so other units can do more damage.

[Endoperez]

Sombre said:
Yes it is. I think pikes are currently rather underpowered and their seemingly most natural use, versus cavalry, doesn't actually work out. I rarely build pike units when others are available for roughly the same cost, because repel never seems to do much for me. Now if pikes had some other hook, such as flail bonus,... well that would make them rather more interesting. Is there some other bonus that could be given to them to make them more effective against cavalry and other very offensive units? Perhaps a simple defence boost would make sense? I mean it would just be like improving the repel effect - keeping your pikey alive so other units can do more damage.



Improving attack would improve repel, as would improving damage.

#charge would give the pikeneers one stronger attack (although it would be much weaker than a knight's charge).

Oh, and according to the mod manual:
4.24 #flail
The weapon has an attack bonus against shields.

I don't have my Dom3 manual with me, so I can't check if it has the details of the ability... Seeing as I'm misremembering lots of things recently, my earlier post about flail-pike vs knight is probably wrong. #flail doesn't negate the shield, just has a bonus (static? dependent on parry value?) against shielded troops.

Also, it seems repel doesn't AUTOMATICALLY deal that 1 point of damage, but the defender has to overcome the attacker's protection as well. From the Dom:PPP manual:

20.4.9 Repel
If an attacker strikes at an enemy with a longer
weapon he might be repelled and possibly lose
his attack. This is worked out as follows:
A: Attacking , D: Defending
A strikes but D has a longer weapon. D makes
an immediate attack vs A. If it is a miss A will
continue his attack on D. If D hit A with the repelling
attack A is forced to make a morale check
or lose his attack on D.
If A makes the morale check he strikes D even
thoughD has placed his weapon between him and
A. D generates a damage value and A generates
a protection value. If the damage value is greater
then the protection value A takes one hit point of
damage. A can now make his strike.
Repel is most effective against light and cowardly
units. Natural weapons such as claws and
bites have a length of 0 and are easy to repel.

[Baalz]

Meglobob said:
So your a submarine and I am a battleship, in that case where are my destroyers with the depth charges? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Naw Bob, you're Atlantis. You're not the battleship, you're the seal splashing around in great white waters. Don't worry, once you scamper out the water you should be safe enough for now. ;P

[Dedas]

What makes length 0 "weapons" easier to repel than a spear (length 4) when you have a pike (length 5)? I cannot see that in the description except that it states it to be so.

[Sombre]

I still don't 100% understand that. Is the most damage a repel can do 1 damage then? I mean if A attacks, D launches his repel attack and hits, then A fails his morale check, is that 1 damage max, or is it a standard hit from the weapon?

It doesn't make sense that he would take less damage purely because of his morale, so I'm guessing repel either does 1 damage and stops their attack, 1 damage and doesn't stop them, or fails completely.

If that's the case, increasing the damage dealt by long weapons wouldn't aid repel, but adding to attack would. One problem with the system seems to be that repelling a 0 length weapon is equally as easy with a 1 length weapon as a 6 length weapon,... and 1 length weapons are more likely to have an attack bonus.

[SelfishGene]

ME Ulm is pretty clearly themed around the Holy Roman Empire and the contributory German states out of which it was made.

But like the historical empire on which it is based, the Holy Roman Empire didn't really succeed in getting anywhere because it's armies while well equiped and very large were not invincible or even any more successful than it's neighbors.

What i'd like to see for ME Ulm, following it's Imperial theme, is an emphasis on Crusading and, perhaps, and a bit of spice in the Lombard/Italian flavor.

Condottiere mercenaries and sacred and/or morale boosting Crusading units would be very helpful.

[B0rsuk]

Pikes

Everybody look at me !

How about making ALL cavalry Animal ? Then you could have very interesting effects with Animal Awe ! As a quick, dirty hack you could give all pikineers Animal Awe.

[Dedas]

Yes, that would be cool indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[B0rsuk]

That's what I thought. Animal Awe is rare enough that it wouldn't affect the balance all that much. But I'd hate to play Bandar Log once all pikineers get Animal Awe ! The best fix I can think about would be removing animal tag from most of their units.

Other than that, I see no reason spells (etc...) affecting animals shouldn't work on cavalry as well.

[Sombre]

B0rsuk said:
Pikes

Everybody look at me !

How about making ALL cavalry Animal ? Then you could have very interesting effects with Animal Awe ! As a quick, dirty hack you could give all pikineers Animal Awe.



That's quite an interesting idea you got there. It might be a little bit tricky to make all the changes necessary to get this working and make it balanced,... but if it could be done it would make pikes a lot more distinct. You could arguably give a lower animal awe status to long spear units as well.

[DrPraetorious]

From Edi's database I can construct a list of all mounted units and a list of all units equipped with whatever weapons easily enough.

I still think this is a bit of a kludge. A preferable fix would be a power weapons could have,
#pike

Which enabled them to ignore the defensive bonus provided by mounted units, in the same way that #flail lets you ignore shield parries. That would require slight modification to the game engine, but I think it'd be enough of an improvement that you could talk Johan into implementing it.

[HoneyBadger]

Pikeneers probably *should* animal-awe SOME horses-ones that aren't specifically trained as war-horses, seeing as how horses are generally smart enough not to impale themselves on a pike wall.

[Xietor]

Endoperez,

I like your mod for ulm, but 1 huge glaring exception. I would make the warlord identical to Man's wardens. Even if it is capital only.

Ulm needs a military thug that is not crippled with the mr 9. It is a waste of a fire brand to put it in the hands of a unit that is so vulnerable to a simple smite.

I also think all of Ulms troops and commanders need their mr raised to 10. 9 is just crippling, and the r"lyeh just salivate if they see ulm.

I guess you could put a lead shield in the thug's shield slot, but it is a crappy shield except for the mr. Maybe one answer to ulms commanders is to give ulm a better mr shield at construction 4. Give Ulm a unique shield that no other race can get.

15 earth gems

protection 20
parry 8
spiked(ap attack)dam 3
plus 4 mr
encumbrance 2
plus 4 attack(it is hard to miss with a shield bash, the target is right in front of you)
minus 1 defense

In fact unique items in the construction tree seems thematically better than spells. But regardless, do away with the 9 mr. I would never play ulm with a 9 mr. It is too huge of a disadvantage.

I also do not like the noble concept with a morale of 8. Cowardly leaders of a nation that disdains magic and prides itself on steel seems unfitting.

[HoneyBadger]

I totally agree about the 9 MR. I mean, I have problems occasionally with Niefel Jarls, who have between 18 and 22 MR right off the bat. 9 is just ridiculous for a nation that doesn't use or want anything to do with magic.

[Dedas]

You have to use drain scales, iron will and tempering the will or you be dead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

Drain scale is only in your own dominion. Are you not supposed to send your armies into enemy dominions, which may have a magic scale9mr 8 now for ulm).

Temper the will is a joke. It is down a tree ulm does not research, and it is deep in that tree for ulm. Meanwhile, your expensive black lords are being one shotted by races that get smite from the start of the game(they do not have to research to level 5 a tree they would otherwise not use to get smite).

I can see crippling units like elephants with low mr, but why Ulm's entire race? Ulm already has no priests to speak of, crappy mages and research, (to add insult to injury, its crappy mages get old age lol), resource hog troops like abysia's, but nowhere close to their power.

If low mr is the price of drain 3, remove drain 3. Id rather have better units than a "free" 120 points. It really is not free in that it cripples you in use of independent mages. Take away that small chance for an additional magic slot, and give better troops.

one race should really be able to win with little or no research on the back of its armies. And that race should be MA ulm.

[Dedas]

Yes, "tempering the will" is level 5 but "iron will" is level 3. It can save your expensive units if you place the mages nearby scripted with it.

And why are you fighting inside the enemies dominion? That is not a good thing unless you have a lot of morale and in some cases magic resistance. Instead, slowly advance forward preaching and building temples and castles (production bonus) in the manner of Ulm MA. Almost all their unit have map move 1 anyway so don't rush it and play like your playing Caelum or something. If you do it right you can let the enemy tie up his forces against your high defense fortresses whilst you turtle your way to his capitol.

[Sandman]

DrPraetorious said:
From Edi's database I can construct a list of all mounted units and a list of all units equipped with whatever weapons easily enough.

I still think this is a bit of a kludge. A preferable fix would be a power weapons could have,
#pike

Which enabled them to ignore the defensive bonus provided by mounted units, in the same way that #flail lets you ignore shield parries. That would require slight modification to the game engine, but I think it'd be enough of an improvement that you could talk Johan into implementing it.



I was thinking this as I was reading the thread. It's simple and elegant, and probably not too difficult to program.

As for Ulm, I could rattle on about the various ideas I've had for them over the years; assassins, high-MR knights and guardians, stealthy preachers, standard-bearers, repeating crossbows, more types of cavalry, etc.

But most of the subtlety of Dominions is in the magic. Why don't we just bite the bullet?

Give Ulm 3E2F1? capital-only Smith Lords. Just like that, they become a fearsome nation.

[normalphil]

Xietor said:

(snipping any and all supporting statements to the conclusion, because the conclusion is the thing and the whole of the thing)

"One race should really be able to win with little or no research on the back of its armies. And that race should be MA ulm."



Yes.

[Xietor]

If you are always able to fight in your own dominion, then god bless you. What if your enemy is ctis and he took dom 10 to start. Ulm has crappy prists, it will lose a preaching fight against most races.

I have never found it to be a successful battle strategy to only fight in your own dominion. And a race like Ulm should not have both low mr and low morale to force it to. I guess ulm basic infantry does not have low morale, it has 10 morale, but is handicapped unlike most every other race, with no way to boost it.

So we have no blessed troops(blessed troops get 2 morale among other things), beyond weak priests, poor research, poor mages, low mr, average(at best) morale, poor mages(with old age), a natioanl spell that tries to compensate for a penalty that Ulm should not be saddled with, a forge bonus, but no unique construction items or national summons, very limited magic access(so limited the manual says to take an awake alchemist, which of course makes a great sc(saracasm on).

And in return Ulm gets infantry that would be crushed by many of the other races that have high mr, good mages, strong priests, ways to heal afflictions, low resource troops with high defense, wide acces to magic, strong national summons.

Ulm does get spies, which are not a great fit with a nation forging its path with steel. So i would not cry to see them removed either in return for better fighting infantry.

[HoneyBadger]

I think that Ulm should have to research as much as any other race. I just think this research should be mostly confined to Construction, and that they should have access to magic weapons and armor that other races don't get-especially ME Ulm.

don't have a big problem if they get a few national Evocation spells that their smiths can use, though, because that's reasonably thematic.

They definitely *should* have a lot of access to black steel armour, though, with all the benefits that entails.

[Xietor]

I thought of 2 theme-based abilities for endoperez' Warlords:


Battleshout: a unique battle cry that puts the blood lust in fighting men. plus 2 morale to all friendly units.

Demoralizing shout: -2 morale to any unit within 10 spaces of the warlord.

it may be better to put the demoralizing shout on a different commander, as you do not want the warlord overpowered.

[Xietor]

Honey,

Why should a race that disdains magic have to research as much as any other race? In fact, as a price for the improved troops, and a beefed up construction tree, I would like to see Ulm's access to many spells removed, certainly any global magic using either death or astral magic, including dispel.

I think Ulm should get a much reduced research tree since they disdain magic, and be a race that relies on steel, forged items, and thug commanders. But you cannot have a good thug with a mr of 9(8 in a hostile dom having magic scale).

[HoneyBadger]

I have no problem with limiting Ulm's access to spells and increasing greatly their access to magic items, other appropriate spells, and holy magic. Maybe throw in the ability that any spell they have researched and could actually cast, they get a very hefty MR bonus against, in addition to being able to cast it.

[mivayan]

Sombre said:
I still don't 100% understand that. Is the most damage a repel can do 1 damage then? I mean if A attacks, D launches his repel attack and hits, then A fails his morale check, is that 1 damage max, or is it a standard hit from the weapon?

It doesn't make sense that he would take less damage purely because of his morale, so I'm guessing repel either does 1 damage and stops their attack, 1 damage and doesn't stop them, or fails completely.

If that's the case, increasing the damage dealt by long weapons wouldn't aid repel, but adding to attack would. One problem with the system seems to be that repelling a 0 length weapon is equally as easy with a 1 length weapon as a 6 length weapon,... and 1 length weapons are more likely to have an attack bonus.


If D's repel roll is successfull, and A fails his morale roll, A's attack is canceled but he takes no damage.

If D's repel roll and A's morale roll are successfull, A takes 0 or 1 damage and does his attack as planned. The 0 damage happen when D's damage roll doesn't get through A's protection. So a str10 pikeman might sometimes stop a knight from attacking, but rarely hurt him with the repel.

I suspect that A's shield protection is included if D's attack roll earlier didn't bypass the shield... but hard to know.

I like the ideas of giving ulm methods to hurt sacreds or magic beings. Are they good *weapon* forgers too? A new any-castle unit with magic weapons might be fun. Or even elf bane/moon blade (vs magic beings), or herald lance/flambeau (vs demons and undead). Or smasher(anti-lifeless), Star of heroes(armor destruction).... yeah... a 30-gold unit with these and a shield!

[Teraswaerto]

Ulm's limitations on magic comes from their lack of mages being able to cast the spells. There is no reason to give them a different research tree.

[Xietor]

they are not limited if they take an alchemist pretender like the manual suggests. If they do that, it is only a matter of time until the alchemist finds the gems with which to cast most magical spells.

especially global spells, limited mages does not hinder a pretender from having strong astral or death magic, and casting global spells that are highly magical. As they arose from the cinders of ermor(that is their description), I cannot imagine they are fond of death magic or the undead.

of course, not having bane lord thugs, no real access to gift of reason, they would need a commander, like endoperez warlord, with some mr or special construction items to enhance mr, to have a prayer as an effective thug.

I can just see a warlord with a fire brand fighting ermor and getting smited 3 times a turn by its priests with an 8 or 9 mr. Yeah the lead shield sucks, i know all about it. But of course id give him that over nothing.

[DrPraetorious]

If you give Ulm lots of religious stuff they become just like Marignon. Their primary difference is that they lack the crazy religious crap, at least in the middle era.

-- edit: I said Ermor instead of Ulm. Sorry, was typing fast. --

How's about this for spells? It's from Vision of Escaflowne (an anime):

Construct Prognostication Engine, The Mage Smiths of Ulm have little patience for numerology or for squiting at specks in the celestial firmament. They construct prognostication engines, great steal contraptions driven by clockwork and magic, to perform such tasks for them.

Const 3, EEE, 15 gems, gives an immobile, drain-immune, inanimate astral-2 mage with a +2 research bonus, immunity to drain dominion and the ability to avert bad events.

Also - I hesitate to suggest this because I'm not sure if it's moddable, but how about a national spell that triggers a resource increasing event? This would prevent Ulm from going on a rampage early but would boost your production enough to let you stay competitive with summoned armies in the mid game, I would think.

[Xietor]

great ideas, dr.

But Ulm needs a melee thug. That is a thematic. Endoperez warlord is good, except he either needs better mr, or unique construction items to boost his absurdly low mr. that do not require astral magic.

(Ermor MA has level 3 priests btw. I did not make that race heh. so i cannot answer why they have high level priests. But Ermor is fine as is, i just used them as an example of a race with level 3 priests).

I also think all pikemen, not just Ulms, should get a significant attack bonus against mounted units. Can you imagine charging into a wall of set pikes? Yes the 1st wall of pike would take big losses from the charge bonus, but charging into set pikes would also take a big toll on the 1st wave of calvary units.

maybe a 1st strike ability, with a high attack by the pike when facing a calvary unit?

I also think the warlord should have his leadership increased to 80. If the nobleman's morale is to be left at 8, he should have leadership zero. Not many of the ulm warriors of steel would follow a coward.

[Teraswaerto]

Should Abysia be prevented from casting water spells, LA Ermor from nature, etc.?

The concept of pretenders does not dictate that the pretender must stick to such things that are thematic to the nation. It is a being of power that uses a nation to get what it wants, why should it care about it's servants not liking like magic? Giving Ulm more thematic pretender choices would be good, but I see no reason to take away the possibility to cast unthematic spells.

[B0rsuk]

Teraswaerto:

Why should Ulm rely on unthematic pretenders to get the job done ? Why not just improve existing pretenders ?

-----

Balancing Ulm sounds very hard. If you improve their national units too much, you'll end up with another Vanheim. No matter what you do to national units, all of them are available from the start.

It sounds like Ulm's best hope is to attack early before enemies accumulate mages and research. This is directly in conflict with the idea of fighting only in your own dominion !

Some thematic improvements:
- assassins with unusually high MR and perhaps even 20-ish elemental resistance. They can even be supernatural or something. Someone already came up with this idea before.

- Perhaps give them 20 percent discount when bidding for mercenaries ?

- Standard bearers/Horn blowers with enchanted standards/horns. Increases MR of nearby units !

- Allow them to alchemize (captured) magic items into gems.

- make their PD scary

- change Black Plate so that it provides MR bonus

- do something !

[Wick]

DrPraetorious said:
Which enabled them to ignore the defensive bonus provided by mounted units, in the same way that #flail lets you ignore shield parries.



As a similar alternative repels could ignore the mounted defense bonus. If the horse stops because it's threatened then it doesn't matter if the rider is harder to hit.

[HoneyBadger]

Allowing them to alchemize all magic items into gems would be a nice ability for them. Kind of dull but hey-it'd be useful.

[Xietor]

Improving Ulm as Endoperez has done with his mod, PLUS giving the warlord commander 12-13 mr, 80 leadership, and raising all of ulms mr from 9 to 10, would not make them vanaheim at all.

In a blitz game, their units would still be trampled by elephants, with no way to capitalize on the elephants low mr, against pangaea, even with the improvements, their infantry would not best pangaea's infantry, their arablests would not outduel the 20 hp longbows, and their size 2 infantry would still be trampled by minotaurs. Arcos hoplites would still be far far superior, ulms units still would have trouble hitting vans.

They would not be overpowered, and still would not be in many people's top 10 races to play ME.

As the game progressed, their lack of magic would still be a major obstacle, and their level 1 priests, a handicap.

[HoneyBadger]

That's a good point, Teraswaerto. If a nation is restricted for no good reason other than theme, then it also restricts the different ways it can be played, and in the end makes it a less viable nation. Just because you're a Niefel Jarl doesn't mean you can't empower levels of fire magic and start casting fireballs. It may not be a good idea, 99% of the time, but it's possible, it's there.

[Xietor]

I would actually like to see ulm, at around construction 7, get a cannon, that could fire at a decent range and not so great accuracy, but would have a substantial physical impact to anyone in the aoe range.

The cannon would have a map movement of 1, and a battle movement of zero. Meaning if you retreated, you lose the cannons. I also think it would take a unit like the siege engineer to operate it, and if he was killed, the cannon could not be fired on moved from the province it was in.

cannons would be most devastating in castle defense. But they would have ammo of only 6 per battle, and the number of cannons one could use would be limited by the siege engineers you had. In other words if you had 10 cannon, but 3 siege engineers, you would only have 3 cannons in use for that battle.

maybe the siege engineers would also have to be summoned, and have a fairly high gem cost(20).

[HoneyBadger]

I really think cannons would be a very bad idea.

There's a ton of technology out there that doesn't require gunpowder, and I think that should be drawn upon, and guns avoided, hands down.

It would just hurt the game, in the end.

[Xietor]

catapult? ballista?

[HoneyBadger]

catapult, torsion-catapult, ballista, mangonel, trebuchet, scorpion, the list goes on! Infact, you can have two lists, A: battlefield artillery, and B: seige artillery.

Then you can start adding flamethrower weapons, anti-personnel shot (diseased cows, grape-shot, exploding ceramic greek-fire grenades, etc.), and various defensive works.

I've written some fun little articles on the idea-so far nobody seems interested, and nothing's come from them, but it would be nice to see them appear.

[Jazzepi]

I really would like to see a death ritual spell that diseases a fortress under siege.

Jazzepi

[Gandalf Parker]

How about "Flaming Pigs"?
Apparently there is no documented proof that it was ever used but the idea of greasing live pigs and setting them afire just before catapulting them into the castle has stayed with me. The idea of trying to catch the fast little fireball as it runs thru the castle setting fires.

[DrPraetorious]

Amos did some really nice drawings of Trebuchet - and I agree, Ulm should be able to recruit those. They have a giant siege bonus and a large area of effect attack that fires every third turn and causes fear in an even larger area (can you do that or does the area of #secondaryeffectalways have to match?).

The flaming pig ammo is what you get when you cast flaming arrows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would be averse to tossing in some cannon and arquebus, but they should show up in the late era, if at all - and they should be seriously limited, as in WFB. The only nation that might conceivably get them in the middle era would be T'ien Ch'i.

[Jazzepi]

Only if I get to urinate on my castle to keep it from catching on fire.

Jazzepi

[Xietor]

I just thought of a great new name for MA Ulm-with the Mod:

The Black Company

[Sombre]

Wasn't that the name of an infamous group of Nazi troops in WW2? I might have it confused, but if it is I'd avoid that.

I suppose it's sort of a generic elite military unit name though.

[HoneyBadger]

I don't think it would be very nice for the pig, but also, unless you fitted them with some kind of parachute, it wouldn't be very effective, since you'd basically just be sending the enemy ham on the hoof, as it were-since it's unlikely the pigs would survive the fall in good enough shape to make a run for it-pigs are mostly dense muscle, and their bones are rather brittle. The combination- coming down from an altitude of 60 feet or more-isn't pretty.
I'd just summon up a couple dozen tiny fire-elementals and set them loose. There must be *lots* of magical ammo people could come up with. How about fire-resistant flaming chickens?

[Xietor]

The Black Company was a famous mercenary troop in the books by Glen Cook. They had minor mages, but mainly relied on steel.

[VedalkenBear]

For my Classical Japan mod, I plan on using an area-1 attack Ballista that has a Fear effect attached to ths shot (think of the Howling Bow from LE TC). May be a small point, but the controversy surrounding the O-yumi I'd have to include. :p

[KissBlade]

MA TC = MA Ulm but worse. And that's just horrible.

[PvK]

It doesn't seem to me that MA TC is much like MA Ulm. TC has much more varied magic, sacred national summons, varied cavalry, decent light infantry with StratMove 2, immortal heroes, good composite bow archers who can fight in melee... and it has no drain thing nor low MR, no forge bonus, etc...

As for the comment someone made earlier about MA Ulm getting elephant-rushed... I'm more worried about trampling when I'm EA Ulm (especially from Caelum). As MA Ulm, just send in the arbalests, set to fire at large monsters...

[SelfishGene]

MA TC also has 12 morale Imperial troops, crossbows/composite bows, light and medium cavalry, ect.

If you look at a nation and say "what kind of casters does it have", and that's what determines if this nation is "hot or not", yea, you might be dissapointed with MA TC vs. EA TC. But then, you'll not ever be playing a national-troop themed nation, ever, anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[VedalkenBear]

Really, one way to 'fix' Ulm's 'issues' would be to implement 'national items' like other national spells. This, unfortunately, cannot be done AFAIK in a mod etc.

Closest would be to create national summons of 'normal' commanders that already have the equipment load-out you desire, correct?

[SelfishGene]

Oh, and Bandar Log isn't even close to Marverni in suckiness. Bandar warriors are versitile and can fill multiple roles. Vanara infantry are cheap and you can spam an army of them quickly. You get a 3 Astral caster by default.

[Xietor]

I played a good bit of a game with endoperez mod.

I like the noble used as a prophet, and the warlord, but the low mr is the main problem and that is not addressed. And the warlord is a bit slow. Even with a the small upgrade in the mod, I do not think i would ever enjoy playing Ulm.

[Arralen]

Be patient, my Ulm mod is 78% finished ... ;-)

[Sombre]

You could just play an infantry nation that doesn't have low MR as a theme.

[Xietor]

well

my favorite nation is Pangaea, they have tough units, wide variety, and high mr. At times i play arcos. soley for its tough infantry.

I would like to play Ulm, for a change of pace, but they are too handicapped.

[Arralen]

MA Ulm mod "Black Steel of Ulm" v2.0 is finished

Check out the mod subforum!

[Potatoman]

I agree with Baalz about EA Ryleh; I actually won an MP game with that nation. The strength of the Aboleths is in Mind Lord SCs- one random earth pick and some research will give you a truly fearsome AOE life-draining SC that can be fielded very early in the game. Later in the game, your Mind Lord and Golem SCs can teleport around wreaking havoc. Unfortunately, lobo guards are your only real troop option, and they are not so good. You live and die by your SCs as EA Ryleh.

As an aside, the first nation I eliminated in that MP game was EA Ulm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, here's chart showing my opinion of the strongest through the weakest nations in EA. If anyone wants to contradict me, voice an opinion, post their own chart, whatever, please feel free.

1: Strongest nation in the game: Helheim

2 Vanheim, Caelum, Lanka, Niefelheim, Tien Chi, Oceanea, Mictlan.

3: Abysia, Kailasa, Pangaea, Sauromatia

4: Arcoscephale, Ermor, C'tis

5: Yomi, Atlantis,

6: Marverni, Ulm

7: Agartha

8: R'lyeh

I don't think I missed any. Let's see what peoples' opinions are, and maybe it'll help determine the triage order for dud nations.

[Shovah32]

Marverni?

[Micah]

How is Oceania tier 2 and Rlyeh dead last? Oceania sucks almost as much as Rlyeh does at getting out of the water and access to a lot of astral magic gives Rlyeh a decided late-game advantage.

Marignon also doesn't exist, and you used the number 2 twice. I think Ulm is also a lot better than you have them down as.

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry, I mixed up Marignon with Marverni-they sound alike.

[HoneyBadger]

Oceanea is 2 because if they were land-based, they'd pwn the game-they definitely pwn the oceans. They're on the same level as Helheim, if you take away the land/water factor, with slightly worse magic paths but slightly tougher sacreds. I guess you could move them down a bit because they're aquatic, but they're still a really solid nation.

Ulm and Marverni I ranked where I did more based on external factors than internal composition. They're balanced really well against themselves, but too many nations go through them like tissue-paper to call them strong. I've played them lots, and I enjoy them, but I can't give them a lot of love, because they're just not that tough. Atlantis and Yomi are tenacious and difficult to take out quickly, even in an early game, while Ulm and Marverni can be swept away by a tough nation-like Helheim-in the early game, unless they're well established-but that's just my opinion from playing them.

[Meglobob]

HoneyBadger said:
Ok, here's chart showing my opinion of the strongest through the weakest nations in EA. If anyone wants to contradict me, voice an opinion, post their own chart, whatever, please feel free.

1: Strongest nation in the game: Helheim

2 Vanheim, Caelum, Lanka, Niefelheim, Tien Chi, Oceanea, Mictlan.

3: Abysia, Kailasa, Pangaea, Sauromatia

4: Arcoscephale, Ermor, C'tis

5: Yomi, Atlantis,

6: Marverni, Ulm

7: Agartha

8: R'lyeh

I don't think I missed any. Let's see what peoples' opinions are, and maybe it'll help determine the triage order for dud nations.



1) Agreed, Helheim by far the strongest nation, full stop.

2) Mine are Vanheim, Caelum, Neifelheim, Atlantis, Lanka, Mictlan, Abysia, Tien Chi, Pangaea.

3) Then Kalisa, Sauromatia, Arco, Ermor, C'tis, R'yleh, Agartha, Oceania, Yomi.

4) Ulm, Marverni.

[PvK]

Strong EA nations in my experience:
Helheim, Vanheim, Niefelheim, Mictlan, Ulm, Agartha, Arco, Oceania, Caelum, Sauromatia, C'tis, Ermor

Yomi looks strong to me in SP but I haven't played as them in MP.

Other EA nations I don't have enough experience with to have a strong opinion about their overall strength.

[HoneyBadger]

I think Yomi could stand more national spells and summons-specifically some different kinds of Dai Oni types, maybe a high level Oni version of the Demon Lords with 3 different unique types. It'd be fun and welcome to see Dai Onis with different abilities, graphics, and starting equipment, even if they were all more or less equal in power. It would just add a bit to the interest and flavor of the nation.

I don't think I'd quite call them a "dud-nation", but they are a bit lame after playing them for a while, not because they're not interesting, but because I don't think enough has been done with them-I think a lot more could be done in terms of flavor and diversity of units and spells.

They really lend themselves, thematically, to national spells and summons, in my opinion, and there's so many interesting effects for demonic Asian magic to have.

[Shovah32]

I also think yomi could do with a bit more variety, although they are fairly strong but quite boring(there arent a large number of ways to play them).

[HoneyBadger]

That's what I'm saying. They aren't underpowered, they're just not flavored to the full capacity of the theme.

[Sir_Dr_D]

What is the reason that marverni is concidered so weak.

There druids are great mages. Astral, earth and nature seems like a great combination of magic. (eagle eyes + gifts from heaven for example) And the Ambinite warriors have good stats for their cost.

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, Druids can be quite useful, but they take more research points to get going than do other casters, and they make *no research boosting items whatsoever*. So you probably don't survive to reach the mid-game, which other people achieve before you do.

Their military is just mildly inferior, but the mages are their real problem. They take too long to get off the ground - the other human nations have a better military, AND they have earlier access to useful combat magic.

The Eponi Knight is decent - but he doesn't have a *lance*, which is a real problem, and you can't fight another player with a military made entirely of medium cav.

The rest of their military is only slightly inferior to equivalently priced Ermorian legionaires. They might look better on paper (they have a higher strength, and broad swords instead of short swords) but they don't have javelins and they don't have tower shields. This is a big problem for early expansion.

That said, I don't think Marverni *needs* a stonger military. If their Druids were more useful around turn 5 they'd be able to hold on - and later in the game, earth/astral/water/nature is a devastating tetrad.

I have a marverni fix mod with just extra national spells that I think does the trick well enough, but I'm hoping for some extra functionality in the next patch.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I am playing marverni in a multiplayer game right now. I used the strategy of rushing to evocation 5 as quick as possible. But the fact that they don't have research boosters is begginning to be a problem.

I agree. I would rather see Marverni improverd with national spells, then troop boosting. But it would be nice if the game engine could also make better use of bare chested warriors. Then Marverni would be a very interesting nation to play.

[vfb]

Here are some problems I've had with Marverni:

Ambibate Nobles are good warriors. However, they are not sacred, so if you build a ton of them, they will eat up a lot of maintenance. A combo I tried with Ambibate Nobles was to get Legions of Steel. That worked nicely. Except that once you get Legions of Steel, your casters will spam it on every unit you've got, even if it's a single Horn Blower sitting behind the ranks. Ambibate Nobles are expensive in terms of resources too. No way can you take any sloth.

The old age on Druids is a bit of a pain. Since Marverni has no blood/fire, it's difficult to stop them from aging. And they are expensive.

Researchers are weak/expensive. Really you've got to take at least Magic 1 to keep up in the research game. Since you have no Air/Death/Fire, you can't build ANY research items unless you get lucky with an indy.

You have no bows. Sure you can mass slingers or javelins, but then you are even more screwed with upkeep.

You have no national summons. (Devs, how about sending at least some Cu Sith love Marveni's way?)

Nature: It's quick to get a Gutater to N3 but you need Const 6 or empowerment to get him to N4 so you can make Ivy Kings.
A Lamia Queen would be much better but you've got no Death. Even if you could make 1 Lamia Queen with a Pretender, it can't make its own Lamia Queens. Firbolgs are great thugs, especially if you have a druid casting healing light.

Earth: Troll Kings are kind of cool. But you have to summon the whole court, and that's expensive.

Astral: Golems are cool. But they're way up in Const 7. Sorry, no Ether Lords, because you guessed it, no Death. Perhaps an Astal/Death pretender to let you conjure Ether Lords might be a good plan, since Marverni does have a nice Astral base to start. Ether Lords could then make more Ether Lords. But at 90 pearls a pop, I think you'd run out pretty soon.

You have no killer rituals. I suppose Baleful Star is not bad, way over in Alt 5. But Air gets Hurricane in Evo 4 (Evo 4 is killer of course), Blood gets Toads in Blood 3 (duh), and Death gets Burden in Thau 5. Fire gets Raging Hearts at Thau 5 too. If Marveni had Death, it would be cool to cast Blight, but, hey, no Death. Melancholia is a good spell -- for someone to cast on Marverni.

Anyway, I still play Marverni, even in MP, because I like the theme. I'd lose in any case because of my vast noobishness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Marverni also does just fine in SP, since it's a lot easier to put up another castle and pump out a bunch of stargazers to support your druids, and you probably don't have to worry about getting rushed on turn 9.

[HoneyBadger]

That pretty much sums it up.

Marverni's a lot like my sorta sister-in-law. Marverni's a nice person (to us anyway), and we like Marverni, but Marverni doesn't have a lot of things going for it. Marverni's not real "together" and can't seem to hold down a job. We'd love to help Marverni out, and we do, but we're not giving Marverni any money or anything it could sell for cash, because that would be a mistake at this point. Marverni's got a real sweet kid though, and is an ok mother. Hopefully, someday, Marverni will straighten itself out, atleast for Marverni's kid's sake, but probably not if Marverni stays married to our sorta brother-in-law Ulm-who's even more of-let's face it-a loser than Marverni is.

[Teraswaerto]

I don't see research as Marverni's problem, fairly cheap sacred researchers. Take magic 1 and you're set.

All druids should start with 1 nature, in addition to what they have now, cost stays the same. Not sure if it would really "fix" Marverni but it would be a good change IMO. Druids could then get 3 nature, and they wouldn't have old age.

National spells would be a cool way of helping Marverni.

[Sombre]

If Marverni don't have the early game power they should, one way to fix that is simply to give them a gold boosting site in their capital. It becomes less and less important as the game goes on, but in the initial rush it could help provide a mass of crazed warriors.

[Sandman]

Would it not be better to simply slash the price of the druids? They're hideously overpriced. For the same basic powers (6 magic, 2 holy), Marignon's grand master costs 270 gold, a difference of 110!

[vfb]

I just noticed this on the 3.07 page (http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html)

* Marverni & me Man temples cost 200

Well, that's nice for Marverni! It'll give them a little extra cash towards the druids. With a high dom Fountain of Blood and some sacrificing, they could do a nice dominion push too.

[HoneyBadger]

I think it would be cool to give Marverni the ability to National Summon a "Menhir". A Menhir is a standing-stone, and the Druids were famous for them. They'd put them in places of power, kind of like Stonehenge, except just individual standing stones. If you made these immobile, but with a lot of HP and protection, and then gave them say 2 nature, 2 earth, 2 astral, they'd make great support-units and really help out Marverni's PD. It would be very thematic.

Marverni also worships trees, so-alternatively-maybe you could have "Menhirs" with 2 earth, 2 astral, susceptible to cold 25%, and "Rowans" (the Rowan tree was considered sacred and magical by the Celts, and it's a pretty name that balances well with the word "Menhir".) with 2 nature, 2 astral, susceptible to fire 25%, for sake of variety, additional theme, and interest.

The Celts were also a very large people, and had quite a few giants myths about them, so maybe a few of the high druids descended from giants or firbolgs. Maybe they could have a national summons that calls up one of these ancient giant druids with the same magic as a druid, but better stats and extended lifespan. Or maybe they can use astral magic ("using the power of their ancient stone circle to call up the spirit of one of the long dead giant henge-builders")to call up an undead giant warrior-chief with access to death-magic, so they have a death-magic "in".

Another nice national spell that fits in with Celtic myth would be the ability to summon the "Cauldron of Annwn". This is an enormous, iron witch's cauldron which would be immobile but extremely difficult to destroy-infact it could safely be immortal, once summoned-that would produce Banes, 1 per turn. The Cauldrons themselves would be Construction level 5 and require both Death 4 and Blood 4, 80 blood slaves and 80 death gems each. It'd be really difficult for Marverni to make them, but if they did, they'd be quite powerful.

The Head of Bran the Blessed. This is an immobile hero for Marverni. It's an enormous, undead head (size 6) that can't move but can bite. It's got lots of hit points ofcourse, is sacred, and regenerates, but is also a very skilled magic user: Holy 4, Nature 4, Death 4, and Astral 4. 1 head slot, no misc slots. Makes a really interesting and different hero for Marverni.

Druids had the ability to curse people, according to legend, and their personages-aka their bodies and their lives-were considered very sacred-so maybe Druids have the ability to curse by touch alone-as long as they aren't holding any weapons, and also gain the Death Curse automatically? Double effect if you take blood-bless.

And finally, again since Marverni's very Celtic-themed, how about a high level evocation spell "Gae Bolga" that allows the caster to throw a spinning barbed harpoon with his feet (yes, that's right from Cu Chulain)?

[Gandalf Parker]

http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
25st april
* Great Boar
* Great Boar of Carnutes
* Iron Boar

[Dedas]

That is GREAT news!

[Meglobob]

Gandalf Parker said:
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
25st april
* Great Boar
* Great Boar of Carnutes
* Iron Boar



Great, Marverni has got a boost then, 200gp temples and new units.

Glad that burden of time as been fixed as well...real killer them massive inflictions it did.

No more burden of time/rain of toads to exploit that bug now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[DrPraetorious]

HoneyBadger - through careful editing, I added the Black Cauldron as a *replacement* for Soul Gate. It makes Cauldron Born throughout your dominion.

I don't think it's possible with current modding to give Druids death curse. I *could* give them a nasty national spell that curses people (more efficient/powerful than existing curses.)

As for the intelligent rocks and trees - to an extent, the Monolith pretender and the Tree Lords already cover that schtick - but I could certainly add national versions for Marverni (after all, Black Forest Ulm gets a national vampire lord and there are already vampire lords for everyone else.)

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks DrPraetorious, I'm glad someone liked my ideas.

[CUnknown]

I just saw this thread and wanted to speak up for my favorite nation, MA Ulm. Perhaps Ulm isn't the best nation in the game, but they are surely not one of the worst. I'd say they are at least average. My reasoning:

1) Their infantry -are- among the best in the game. At least as far as non-sacreds go. They cost 10 gold, people, I dare you to find any other infantry that can stand up to their 20 protection for the same price. And despite what others have said, they are easy to mass with productivity 3 and Ulm's production bonus.

2) Arbelests are among the best archers in the game. 45 range and massive armor piercing damage? I've killed equipped SC pretenders in their own dominion just by using abelests before. They pack a mean punch. Just script them to fire archers or something so they don't hit you in the back.

And speaking of friendly fire, I love using masses of indy archers to fire closest -- they have no chance of hurting my black plates.

3) Huge amounts of available gold. Their infantry are cheap and cost lots of production. Their mages are also cheap (no 300 gold options available here). That means you buy up -all- the mercenaries and expand quickly, even without using your pretender.

4) Forge bonus. I think this has been seriously underestimated in the discussion so far. This is huge. I play Ulm as merchants, selling off dwarven hammers and making nice profits. Or you can sell to your allies at cost -- and since diplomacy is worth so much, I don't think this advantage can be overstated.

5) Research. Once you reach midgame, your research shoots up dramatically by mass forging lightless lanterns, tying you at least temporarily with the game's best. This is something no other race can do as cheaply or as well (2 fire gems per lantern). I would say Ulm has above average research overall.

6) Thugs. People have mentioned Ulm lacks thugs, but I typically base my mid-late game strategy on them, and the wealth of items forged by my smiths. It's not that hard to summon Bane Lords or those Firbolg guys.

So, their late game isn't so hot. I have a habit of coming in 2nd or 3rd with Ulm, but come on -- half the other races wouldn't even have made it that far. Ulm has a killer early -mid game, even if you take into account all those crazy bless strategies out there. Sure, you can beat Ulm in the early game with a dual-bless, but why on earth would you chose Ulm as one of your first targets? You'd have rocks in your head.

Ulm is the best ally to have in the game, and very tough to crack early on. It's my opinion that they should just about always survive to the late mid - endgame, at which point they lose. But, hey, that's life.

[Micah]

MA Ulm is horrid, sorry.

1: Toe to toe, sure, they have excellent infantry, I don't think anyone would dispute that, but they're incredibly slow and have pretty subpar morale on the battlefield. If their morale breaks you can expect to lose a LOT of them while they retreat and get hit in the back repeatedly. Also, mapmove 1 = awful. Getting that stand-up fight you want so badly is pretty difficult when your opponent forces you to split up your forces to stop raiders and you can't reassemble them quickly.

2: firing every 3 turns is pretty bad. Normal crossbows or flaming arrow indies are going to do comparable amounts of damage because of their rate of fire, and their range advantage is minimal, especially if the opponent is expecting them and puts his own archers further forward...the length of the battlefield usually isn't more than the range on a normal Xbow. If they had a resource-light version of them I think it would help Ulm out a lot, but they compete for resources in a major way.

3: Other nations can always choose not to spend money on their troops too, it's just a bad plan. Ulm also HAS to spend money building castles for resources.

4: The bonus is nice, but most of the nice stuff they can make is tailored for SCs that they can't easily access, since it tends to be armor, weapons, and shields. Hammers and earth boots are major sellers, and trading is a major plus, it's true, but the variety of items they can make is extremely limited. Indie mage recruitment to expand your forge selection either means a lot of really bad researchers if you took drain, or a lot of pretender points sunk into not taking drain, which hurts because Production 3 is non-optional.

5: Lightless lanterns are nice, but you have to hit construction 6 before you can make them which takes a while. You're also, again, forced to make a pile of them to stay competitive, so you burn a lot of gems just to avoid falling behind.

6: No national paths to summon either of the guys you mentioned. N4 and D2 aren't exceptionally difficult to get, but you'll probably need a ring of sorcery to do so unless you're using your pretender.

Ulm also has a ton of mismatches. Flaming arrows will cut through arbalests and any non-shielded ground troops. Jotunheim's infantry is problematic for Ulm. Massed tramplers are a nightmare. Shadow blast decimates them. Granted FA and SB kill lots of stuff really effectively, but it takes Ulm a long time to recover their losses on the front line. The front castles can only make 20 or so troops per turn, maximum, and with a 1 mapmove castles in the rear aren't going to be able to get help up to the fight for a while.

[Gandalf Parker]

On of the few good things about threads like this is that they debunk the idea of bad anything in the game. You say something general like there are bad nations, or units, or spells.. and you get a lot of head nodding. But in a thread like this you find out that there isnt much agreement on just what those are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

That doesn't mean that there aren't bad nations (as in underpowered). Some of the people here (me included) just don't have the experience to make those calls. There are people who have made pretty watertight cases for things in the game being bad - there's no need for discussion in those cases.

The position that there's nothing 'bad' in the game is so ridiculous to me there's no way I'd ever bother arguing with it. All games have things that aren't balanced or just weren't quite thought through by the devs.

[PvK]

Once again, it seems to me that a large part of the disagreement comes from a problem of definitions and perspectives. You and Gandalf don't, I think, mean the same thing when you say "bad" or "dud nations" (if Gandalf ever affirms those terms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). I think Gandalf's concern is that people new to the game or new to the topic may get the wrong idea, and that he's trying to supply the contexts and provisos that others are leaving out when they comment about things in a negative way. Of course there are also cases where people haven't considered the good sides of something, or haven't learned the good uses of things (e.g. Agarthan amphibians, Sidhe assassin, human heavy infantry).

[CUnknown]

Responding to Micah's rebuttal:

1) Agreed. I'm glad you agree that Ulm's infantry are truely excellent. I certainly agree that Ulm armies having a strat move of 1 is a horrible disadvantage -- I think it's the worst thing about Ulm, honestly, but this wasn't mentioned in the earlier discussion. I was de-bunking the idea that Ulm's infantry aren't 1st class, and I think at least that part of my argument holds. All heavy infantry is 1 strat move, I believe, but Ulm is forced to rely on them. Admittedly, a major problem.

2) I just disagree here. Let's keep flaming arrows out of this equation and focus on the unit itself with no buffs. Let's take an average protection rating of 12 and go from there, discounting the range bonus of arbelests.

Short bows doing damage of 10, firing every turn. Using the dominions probability table from the manual, they do 1 point of damage only on a 24% chance, and they're doing 5 points of damage on a 6% chance. So, one archer hitting his target three times has a pretty good shot of doing a point of damage (if I'm understanding this right).

A crossbow doing 10 ap damage will do 1 damage 76% of the time. On average, I guess they'll do 4 damage, and 11% of the time they will do 10 damage, potentially enough for a 1 shot kill.

An arbelest doing 14 ap damage, on average, will do 9 damage to that poor fool. That's more than double the x-bow, so even if we say the crossbow fires twice as often as the arbelest, the arbelest is -still better.- In fact, the arbelest bolt will kill a 13 hp, 16 protection heavy calvary in one shot 8% of the time (the x-bow would do it only 3% of the time).

Not only that, but it is a clear advantage to front-load your damage, that's less guys shooting back at you.

3) If Ulm had a 300 gold mage option, they would be the best faction in the game. Just like if -any- other race had Ulm's forging abilty, -it- would be the best faction in the game. I'm not sure how you can view Ulm's having tons of cash on hand as anything other than a nice advantage.

4) Often, I empower my smiths so they have a wider selection of forgable items. At least I did this in dominions 2, in dominions 3, 10% of my smiths will have an extra random path, something I am salivating over.

5) Construction 6 doesn't take that long, given my research priorities. Or priority, as the case may be. That would be Construction 6. Spending a pile of gems to stay competitive, you say? I think I mentioned they only cost me 2 per lantern, if I make 10, that's only 20 gems. And often I sell them for 5-6 gems a pop, that's over 100% profit. Lightless Lanterns -make- gems, they don't cost gems! Oh, and usually I use them for a couple turns before selling them, the buyer is none the wiser they're getting used goods (shhh!).

6) Yeah, this is a problem. Yet, it's a problem that can be solved by the pretender.

About Ulm's mismatches, the one I agree with more than anything is the elephants. Arcosephale kicks the ever living crap out of Ulm -- they have elephants, infantry to rival Ulm's, astral mages to dominate my poor Ulmish minds, and to top it off, they have better research and will kill me in the lategame. But, I'd say that every well-balanced race has at least one mismatch out there, waiting for them. I'm not trying to argue that Ulm is super-awesome, or one of the top tier of factions.

One thing I didn't mention before is the access to spies. I love spies.

[tromper]

Haven't read the entire thread in one sitting, but upon glossing, I'd like anyone to tell me why LA Abysia isn't utter crap. Or were we supposed to stick to EA only? Heh. Anyway, LA Abysia gets my vote for the worst land nation.

[Wish]

uh, a pretender with nature and fire for a great bless on a sacred troop with a morningstar and a shield.

easy access to blood and devils.

relatively strong fire mages for falling flames.

and thats just at a cursory glance

[thejeff]

Isn't one of those 10% randoms Air?

That lets Master Smiths make cheap Quills too. Granted they won't have much air income to work with, but at 2 per, they don't need a lot.

[Shovah32]

LA Abysia is a fairly nice blood nation but i personally dont find them that good.

[Sombre]

He asked about LA Abysia.

[tromper]

Wish, if you're telling me that Guardian of the Pyres are worth 55g and 28r with stats that can't match up with FAR cheaper units of other nations I suspect you've never played Abysia in MP.

But hey, if you have, please do tell me how those double blessed Guardians worked out for you. I'm curious. And sort of laughing. I'm sort of new and all. Tell me what I'm missing.

[Wish]

well they are cheaper under conceptual balance. so i guess the community has already ceded that point.

I played an MP with them in dom 2. they can hold their own. (just not against qm)

[DrPraetorious]

LA Abyssia still gets warlocks, and warlocks still rock.

The Guardian of the Pyre compares fairly to most *late era* sacred units. His purpose is not to kill the enemy - with a 4N blessing he's a good shield wall to prevent the enemy from reaching your anathemants who are spamming fire magic.

LA Abyssia is an extremely poor sacred rusher - so if you evaluate all nations according to face-hugging potential, it stinks.

But it's in the late era for a reason - by the standards of late era nations, their magic is extremely powerful. Their military is uninspiring, but that's fair to balance their devastating magic. I'll admit that LA Marignon is better in most ways.

That said, I'm working on spells for every era of abyssia.

[Evilhomer]

LA abyssia has good battle mages, cheap blood mages (100 gold, sacred), decent infantery, they get 80 extra design points (due to heat 2) - probably among the top 50% nations.

[Gandalf Parker]

The reason that someone will always mention Abyssia on such lists, especially late Abyssia, is that its benefits dont appear to some players. Its particular to the playing style. Of course all of the nations are to some degree which is something I LOVE about this game. But Abysia seems like a good idea for using the fire auras in head-to-head combat, then when they try it doesnt seem to work out as well as expected. Finding its other benefits involves working in areas that might not be apparent to the kinds of players who try it looking for a super army.

I think thats part of any nation. Anytime there DOES seem to be an agreement about a weak anything (nation, spell, units, strategy) it tends to make me focus on it to try and develop a use for it. I think that many of the expert players do the same thing but being an expert player tends to go hand in hand with not telling everyone when you discover such things.

[Evilhomer]

I disagree on one point, most so called experts that you talk to do what they can to give constructive advice and their opinion in matters.

[tromper]

I'm sorry, but perhaps you're thinking that a mass of overly-expensive Guardians of the Pyre and some Falling Fires casting scared, err I mean sacred, units are going to take anyone down with anything but late to end game noise, Gandalf Parker? Go play LA Abysia in MP. You expect them to use blood to summon what? Their troops don't radiate heat, and everyone will know what's coming once they manage to research up to decent fire spells that utilize their fire resistance. I'm still not understanding. They suck.

In fact, has anyone ever been overrun by LA Abysia? Has LA Abysia ever won a game? Hmmmm.

[Evilhomer]

Have you even tried blood ? It is very strong in fact, and the ability to build blood hunters for 100 gold (and since they are sacred they cost half the upkeep) is a very nice trait. They have strong fire, astral and blood mages, and strong mages are pretty rare in LA, in fact there are dussins of worse nations out there. Sure they are not a powerhouse but they are not as weak as you think.

[mivayan]

thejeff said:
Isn't one of those 10% randoms Air?

That lets Master Smiths make cheap Quills too. Granted they won't have much air income to work with, but at 2 per, they don't need a lot.


On average one in 40 smiths have an air random... I think you'll need a searching pretender to get usefull amounts of gems.



tromper said:
In fact, has anyone ever been overrun by LA Abysia? Has LA Abysia ever won a game? Hmmmm.


Cheap anywhere blood hunters, heavy infantry with tower shields, immunity to fire storm/heat from hell... ought to be able to do something?

Guess all usefull mages being old and capitol-only counts for something too.

[Gandalf Parker]

mivayan said:

thejeff said:
Isn't one of those 10% randoms Air?

That lets Master Smiths make cheap Quills too. Granted they won't have much air income to work with, but at 2 per, they don't need a lot.


On average one in 40 smiths have an air random... I think you'll need a searching pretender to get usefull amounts of gems.



tromper said:
In fact, has anyone ever been overrun by LA Abysia? Has LA Abysia ever won a game? Hmmmm.


Cheap anywhere blood hunters, heavy infantry with tower shields, immunity to fire storm/heat from hell... ought to be able to do something?

Guess all usefull mages being old and capitol-only counts for something too.



Good points. One thing about this game will be finding out whether or not rush tactics will count for anything. If not, then many of the usual nation considerations learned from smaller MP games might need altered. If Abysia plays slowly with a strong heat dominion then things might get interesting. They could even go to heat +3 which would affect others more than it would them. On the other hand, there are nations which will be able to make better use of indepts to push without waiting for their dominion to catch up.

Would Abysia playing a defensive game inside a powerful dominion until they research some power for their mages might be a tactic?

[Micah]

LA Marignon has the same or better blood potential, better magic diversity, 2 mapmove crossbows (which work great with flaming arrows), better researchers, non-cap-only mages that are actually useful, sailing, and spies, along with some kickass national summons and possibly the best PD in the game, along with non-cap H3 priests that can blood sacrifice up a storm, which is especially important with Rlyeh and Ermor's LA dominions being a very real LA threat. Abysia gets...2 free picks from heat 2? And a shot at S3/B4 on their warlocks, which is one higher than the Goetics. FR troops across the board and one extra MR is nice, but that hardly makes up for everything else being vastly inferior to Marignon. They're going to see maybe 2 anathemants all game since they'll be making warlocks the rest of the time, so less potential blood sacrificing abuse on the whole, even though they do have H3 priests as well. Abysia is a clear loser against any opponent that isn't tossing around gobs of fire magic, so their only good matchup is probably the head-to-head with Marignon. Most of the other LA nations won't really care about the FR til the battlefield enchants come out, and by that point Abysia's reliance on cap-mages is going to start to hurt them pretty badly.

[Gandalf Parker]

I didnt realize we were trying to discuss who might actually win. I might try that will a 4 man small-map blitz but not something this big.

Diplomacy and alliances are likely to affect the outcome of this game more than anything we have discussed so far. Second to that is likely to be how closely matched a nation is to the playing style of the person playing it.
If gambling wasnt illegal here Id be tempted to start a paypal betting pool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif